politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The final Greek vote: YES 38.7%: NO 61.3%
Comments
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I use a Halifax Clarity card, no fees worldwide (although I haven't tried to use it outside Europe yet)NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
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I know that you still have to sign when using cards in the US which I found surprising when I went there last year.NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
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What a pillock. The Greek government can reject the Troika's demand for austerity. So what's the problem with the government seeking (and getting) support from the people in doing so?Richard_Tyndall said:I see the EU Commission vice president is now saying the referendum was illegal.
Oh I guess the EU Commission Vice President Frans Timmermans is all of a sudden a zealot of the law of a country he's not even from?
Where's a leader writer with the guts to comment "What's it to do with you, Timmermans?"
Timmermans is probably well annoyed in his tiny mind. After he's spent a lifetime being 'objective' and 'technocratic' in helping big business, along comes a southern European who doesn't even wear a tie, who rips up the "do whatever the banks tell you" rulebook for creeps, and who gets his people behind him using the rock-solid method of a referendum.
Funny how Greece can organise a referendum in a few days, whereas in Britain whether it's on Scottish independence or British EU membership it takes years and years and years.
It's also funny how China can build a 2-mile runway on an artificial island in a few months whereas at Heathrow the timetable is, what is it, 20 years?
And the chatterers can watch Tweedledave and Tweedleboris disagree on whether a huge amount of new air traffic should land west or east of London, and the objective experts predict the new traffic will net exactly £281.347 billion pounds and 'create' 21500 jobs.
Ever get the feeling propagandists are deciding what questions should be asked and what should be assumed?0 -
They won't sell to the Russians, of course, but it will be interesting to see if, as the Americans wake up after the 4th July weekend, there is an flurry of diplomatic activity (aka leaning on the ECB and Germany) this afternoon.SandyRentool said:So if Greece were to sell off a couple of islands to Russia - ideal site for an air base and a navy base - might there be some geo-political consequences?
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UK debit cards work very haphazardly in the US and are frequently refused if you try to buy something with them. They almost always work in ATM machines however.0
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Greek meltdown... at Wimbledon #kyrgios0
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Hi NIck. A British ATM card should work in the US with no issues, but definitely inform the bank that you are going abroad in advance as British banks can and do lock you out, necessitating an international phone call to sort out.NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
Also credit and debit cards can be an issue there, as they don't use the Chip and PIN system but it depends on the UK bank how they authorise non-C&P tx. I had issues a couple of years ago with this one.
Old-fashioned Greenbacks always work though :-)0 -
Tongue in cheek suggestion -- the Greeks should use the American solution. Charge Goldman Sachs and whoever else signed off on their books to join the Euro, and fine them hundreds of billions of drachmas, or whatever currency is in use next week.0
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We've been to Florida several times - there is no problem withdrawing cash at ATMs (at least not at WDW) - and we didn't advise the bank we were travelling - although proactive risk prevention is a good thing. I have seen Americans use a credit/ debit card for a $0.50 drink!NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
We tend to take sufficient money for the essentials (food/ drink), but any major purchases are on credit/ debit card. If wanting to take cash then travellers cheques are probably a good way as there is protection against having them stolen.
As an insurance broker, I would of course point out that there are very often low limits of cash covered under travel insurance policies.
(Am going to Corfu in August, for that we'll probably take more cash than usual - as well as simple medications.)0 -
I was in NYC a while back and my debit card was blocked at the ATM.NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
A simple call to my bank was all that was needed to lift the block, and it functioned fine from then on.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to make a difference if you tell the bank in advance that you are travelling.
My advice would be that the debit card will be fine so long as you are able to contact them should it be blocked... i.e. don't make the first use of the card on a Sunday.0 -
Don't upset @malcolmgScott_P said:@bbclaurak: Most Greeks we ve spoken to so far say vote was not about economics, was about pride and dignity
@bbclaurak: 'We ve had enough' the big message so far, whatever the economy does next
I think these people are about to be very, very unhappy.0 -
@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
Russia (trad supporter of Greece) would have to clear it with Israel (trad supporter of Turkey, and with many of its own 'supporters' among 'Russian' 'oligarchs') first. Or whoever blew up the explosives at the naval base in Cyprus in 2011, destroying the country's main power plant and hastening the collapse of its economy, might fancy another go. Oh whoops, they are supposed to have self-detonated.SandyRentool said:So if Greece were to sell off a couple of islands to Russia - ideal site for an air base and a navy base - might there be some geo-political consequences?
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It still strikes me looking back over the last week that the real problem was not the ECB or the EU leaders who did their very best to find an accommodation - nor entirely the Greeks who apparently moved on a lot of issues before the fracture. The real problem appears to have been the IMF who persisted in making demands that even the EU thought were unrealistic and which the Greeks refused to accept.Scott_P said:@afneil: Hard response to Greece NO coming out of Berlin, Brussels and now even Paris. But today it is Frankfurt and the ECB that matters.
The fact that the IMF has now released a report which effectively admits that means there must be a lot of questions to be answered at the top of that organisation. It is interesting that they are effectively letting the Europeans pick up all the pieces now and don't seem to be saying much today.0 -
Last Greek polls from UKPR:
"Metron/Parapolitik (Thurs-Fri) – YES 46%, NO 47% (No ahead by 1%)
GPO/Mega TV (Wed-Fri) – YES 44.1%, NO 43.7% (Yes ahead by 0.4%)
Alco/Proto Thema (Wed-Fri) – YES 41.7%, NO 41.1% (Yes ahead by 0.6%)
Ipsos (Tues-Fri) – YES 44%, NO 43% (Yes ahead by 1%)
Uni of Macedonia/Bloomberg (Thurs) – YES 42.5%, NO 43% (No ahead by 0.5%)"
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/94530 -
Greece has a solvency problem, it should not be treated as a liquidity crisis.rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
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"We know that we’ve got our work cut out to win a Labour majority government in 2020. Without a major recovery in Scotland we’ll need to win around 100 additional seats in England and Wales in less than 5 years’ time on an average swing of around 10%.
We must take almost all these constituencies from the Conservatives because there are next to no Lib Dem seats left to squeeze. And, as I’ve set out before, we can’t tackle the Tories in these must-win seats without taking on UKIP too. That doesn’t mean parroting UKIP politics, but it does mean understanding how we win back the often working class voters who vote for them.
This is true in the South just as in the North.
We had 18 target seats for 2015 in the South East and South West, 16 of which were Conservative-held. We won only one – Hove. Even this dreadful result masks the extent of the problem, as we lost so much ground in some of these seats that we thought we were set to win.
UKIP were a part of that failure. They quadrupled their share of the vote in these seats to 12%, and picked up over 100 000 votes. In half of these constituencies the UKIP vote was bigger than the Tory majority.
And in the two seats in the South that we lost to the Tories – Southampton Itchen and Plymouth Moor View – UKIP gained 13.4% and 21.5% of the vote."
http://labourlist.org/2015/07/to-win-in-2020-we-need-to-beat-ukip-in-the-south-as-well-as-the-north/0 -
You say "of course", but I don't know why you are so sure. I agree it will be interesting to see whether the US visibly gets involved. In principle, there's nothing to stop the Greek government (or any of several other governments) calling a snap referendum on NATO membership. That'd be the day!DecrepitJohnL said:
They won't sell to the Russians, of course, but it will be interesting to see if, as the Americans wake up after the 4th July weekend, there is an flurry of diplomatic activity (aka leaning on the ECB and Germany) this afternoon.SandyRentool said:So if Greece were to sell off a couple of islands to Russia - ideal site for an air base and a navy base - might there be some geo-political consequences?
There's already growing support for a NATO referendum in Bulgaria.
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You'll get a better FX rate on cash from the UK than from an ATM.weejonnie said:
We've been to Florida several times - there is no problem withdrawing cash at ATMs (at least not at WDW) - and we didn't advise the bank we were travelling - although proactive risk prevention is a good thing. I have seen Americans use a credit/ debit card for a $0.50 drink!NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
We tend to take sufficient money for the essentials (food/ drink), but any major purchases are on credit/ debit card. If wanting to take cash then travellers cheques are probably a good way as there is protection against having them stolen.
As an insurance broker, I would of course point out that there are very often low limits of cash covered under travel insurance policies.
(Am going to Corfu in August, for that we'll probably take more cash than usual - as well as simple medications.)
To avoid blocking, pre-inform your bank and don't shop at Macys (Macys is a favourite for stolen UK credit cards so triggers security alerts)0 -
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
@John_N
Very few banks are owned by private equity. You can't leverage a bank balance sheet to reduce the level of equity because it is inherently leverages. Those examples that do exist are either distressed assets (Flowers/LTCJ), growth capital (RBS/Shawbrook) or family offices (RCJ)0 -
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
@iNewsroom: [ALERT] Putin tells Tsipras supports Greek people to 'overcome difficulties': Kremlin [AFP]0
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Topping , hard to get me upsetTOPPING said:
Don't upset @malcolmgScott_P said:@bbclaurak: Most Greeks we ve spoken to so far say vote was not about economics, was about pride and dignity
@bbclaurak: 'We ve had enough' the big message so far, whatever the economy does next
I think these people are about to be very, very unhappy.0 -
Re. the IMF we should note that apparently European elements within it try to block the publication of the recent debt sustainability analysis that showed Greece needs large-scale debt relief (even on optimistic assumptions).0
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Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
Isn't that effectively saying 'you're on your own but we will cheer for you?'Scott_P said:@iNewsroom: [ALERT] Putin tells Tsipras supports Greek people to 'overcome difficulties': Kremlin [AFP]
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Many thanks to everyone for the advice!Charles said:
You'll get a better FX rate on cash from the UK than from an ATM.weejonnie said:
We've been to Florida several times - there is no problem withdrawing cash at ATMs (at least not at WDW) - and we didn't advise the bank we were travelling - although proactive risk prevention is a good thing. I have seen Americans use a credit/ debit card for a $0.50 drink!
We tend to take sufficient money for the essentials (food/ drink), but any major purchases are on credit/ debit card. If wanting to take cash then travellers cheques are probably a good way as there is protection against having them stolen.
As an insurance broker, I would of course point out that there are very often low limits of cash covered under travel insurance policies.
(Am going to Corfu in August, for that we'll probably take more cash than usual - as well as simple medications.)
To avoid blocking, pre-inform your bank and don't shop at Macys (Macys is a favourite for stolen UK credit cards so triggers security alerts)0 -
Yes - I was saying that we have no problems drawing cash - didn't say we did it regularly (probably once or twice a trip (fortnight), when the wife has indulged.) Have had no problems at Macy's in the Mall at Millennia (probably because it is an upmarket Mall - why use stolen credit card at Macy's when you can use it at Luis Viton?)Charles said:
You'll get a better FX rate on cash from the UK than from an ATM.weejonnie said:
We've been to Florida several times - there is no problem withdrawing cash at ATMs (at least not at WDW) - and we didn't advise the bank we were travelling - although proactive risk prevention is a good thing. I have seen Americans use a credit/ debit card for a $0.50 drink!NickPalmer said:O/T but talking of ATMs - I'm taking a 3-week holiday in the US shortly, the first time I'v ebeen there for 7 years. Is there a significant advantage in taking money in cash rather than relying on withdrawals from my debit card? Will a standard current account debit card even work in the US (not too keen to pay the cost of cash in foreign currency from creidt cards, though I suppose it's the sensible option for hotel bills), and do I need to inform the bank that I'm travelling so they don't think I'm a fraudster who's stolen the card?
We tend to take sufficient money for the essentials (food/ drink), but any major purchases are on credit/ debit card. If wanting to take cash then travellers cheques are probably a good way as there is protection against having them stolen.
As an insurance broker, I would of course point out that there are very often low limits of cash covered under travel insurance policies.
(Am going to Corfu in August, for that we'll probably take more cash than usual - as well as simple medications.)
To avoid blocking, pre-inform your bank and don't shop at Macys (Macys is a favourite for stolen UK credit cards so triggers security alerts)0 -
Some helpful advice about taking money abroad here:NickPalmer said:
Many thanks to everyone for the advice!Charles said:
You'll get a better FX rate on cash from the UK than from an ATM.weejonnie said:
We've been to Florida several times - there is no problem withdrawing cash at ATMs (at least not at WDW) - and we didn't advise the bank we were travelling - although proactive risk prevention is a good thing. I have seen Americans use a credit/ debit card for a $0.50 drink!
We tend to take sufficient money for the essentials (food/ drink), but any major purchases are on credit/ debit card. If wanting to take cash then travellers cheques are probably a good way as there is protection against having them stolen.
As an insurance broker, I would of course point out that there are very often low limits of cash covered under travel insurance policies.
(Am going to Corfu in August, for that we'll probably take more cash than usual - as well as simple medications.)
To avoid blocking, pre-inform your bank and don't shop at Macys (Macys is a favourite for stolen UK credit cards so triggers security alerts)
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/cheap-travel-money
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It's confusing because the bank is on the opposite side of each transaction to the customer, so when you deposit your assets in the bank, they become the bank's liabilities, and if you borrow money from the bank then your liability is the bank's asset.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
Remember, deposits are liabilities, not assets!Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
A deposit is a liability, not an asset, from the bank's perspective.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
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Finance minister of Finland seems to be the only pragmatist in the EU today. Good to see someone with the right attitude at least.
https://twitter.com/alexstubb/status/6180217422468055040 -
Thanks William (and Robert and Edmund)williamglenn said:
A deposit is a liability, not an asset, from the bank's perspective.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
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Basically, banks don't really hold your deposits. They take them in and then loan them out to others or invest them or do stupid things like make up credit default swaps. They usually only keep enough cash in their system to cope with day-to-day requirements of their customers. So it all goes horribly wrong if everyone decides to go and get their deposit back. This is the lack of liquidity. Its a grey area, however, as I understand it, as to whether a lot of the 'invested' deposit euros are actually really convertible back to cash in the medium or even long term.williamglenn said:
A deposit is a liability, not an asset, from the bank's perspective.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
Or as Churchill requested for Stalin "Extend to our noble Soviet allies every assistance short of actual help"Richard_Tyndall said:
Isn't that effectively saying 'you're on your own but we will cheer for you?'Scott_P said:@iNewsroom: [ALERT] Putin tells Tsipras supports Greek people to 'overcome difficulties': Kremlin [AFP]
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And most of the money in the system is 'bank money' that the banks have created rather than real money issued by the central bank. So when the music stops, there won't be any money. That applies here too, not just in Greece.edmundintokyo said:
It's confusing because the bank is on the opposite side of each transaction to the customer, so when you deposit your assets in the bank, they become the bank's liabilities, and if you borrow money from the bank then your liability is the bank's asset.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. From reading the comments earlier I thought they were saying they had 120 billion of assets deposited.edmundintokyo said:
They'd be insolvent if they've only got 119 billion Euros of assets with which to honour those 120 billion Euros of deposits.Richard_Tyndall said:
Robert, I know earlier today someone posted a comment saying there is around 120 billion Euros of deposits still in Greek banks. If that is the case how can they be considered insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.0 -
While we're muttering about banks has anyone else living outside the UK got a letter from their UK bank telling them they're not allowed to put money in their savings account any more and threatening to close the account if they do?
I'm wondering if this is a brilliant plan by HM Treasury to encourage entrepreneurship by making banking so annoying you pull all your savings out and sink them into your startup.0 -
Any polling on % of Greeks who would like to return to the drachma ?
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Nick,
We put aside debit cards and credit cards just for travelling abroad:
For Debit Cards we use N&P which give you free use of ATM. I believe Metro do as well. Just need to transfer £500 to account each month by DD for N&P.
For Credit Cards we use Nationwide (not sure if that is Europe only foc) and Santander Select 1230 -
If money was ever real in the first place.SandyRentool said:And most of the money in the system is 'bank money' that the banks have created rather than real money issued by the central bank. So when the music stops, there won't be any money.
* X-Files music *0 -
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?0 -
edmundintokyo said:
While we're muttering about banks has anyone else living outside the UK got a letter from their UK bank telling them they're not allowed to put money in their savings account any more and threatening to close the account if they do?
I'm wondering if this is a brilliant plan by HM Treasury to encourage entrepreneurship by making banking so annoying you pull all your savings out and sink them into your startup.
Might be a money-laundering issue. If they don't "know" you, then they won't be allowed to accept your money.
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Fractional Reserve Banking.nigel4england said:
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?0 -
Not even close. Most banks work on a tiny fractional reserve value of deposits, and would be bust in days if everyone tried to get their money out.nigel4england said:
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?
A lot of the pain the banks have gone through in recent years has been to improve the ratio of deposits to loans, but there's still way more of the latter and not enough of the former if trust in the bank itself starts to be questioned by depositers.0 -
Fictional Reserve Banking, more like!watford30 said:
Fractional Reserve Banking.nigel4england said:
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?0 -
That's so funny because it's so true.SandyRentool said:
Fictional Reserve Banking, more like!watford30 said:
Fractional Reserve Banking.nigel4england said:
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?
PS +1 for your avatar. Will he find the time to make QT this week I wonder?0 -
Brilliant quote from anon Labour MP, “Jeremy Corbyn would do for our electoral chances what myxomatosis did for rabbits.”0
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It's about walking away and leaving a mess for others to clear up. It's about letting industrious savers suffer and feckless debtors prosper. Let's not attribute virtue to behavior that would make Frank Gallagher blush.John_N said:Do people have to follow the propagandists and say 'meltdown'? It's a rejection of blackmail. It's saying no to Shylock. It's new hope.
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Another question. Since 2012 the ECB has declared itself to be the lender of last resort for the Eurozone. Does that not mean that they have a duty to provide solvency to the banks within the Eurozone even if they are in Greece? Surely the ECB has, since 2012 effectively bypassed the national treasuries and taken on their roles as far as supporting banks is concerned.
I know that the Eurozone says that bank deposits of up to 100,000 Euros are supposedly protected against bank collapse so is it not the case that the Eurozone should be ensuring the national banks stay open?
I am sure that the answer to this will be no but I am interested in why that is the case given that Draghi announced the ECB was indeed the Eurozone lender of last resort.0 -
Banks are only solvent providing their customers believe they are solvent.0
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I'm fairly sure "lender of last resort" is not the same as "must fund insolvent banks indefinitely". But other people on this thread no doubt know more about banking than I.Richard_Tyndall said:Another question. Since 2012 the ECB has declared itself to be the lender of last resort for the Eurozone. Does that not mean that they have a duty to provide solvency to the banks within the Eurozone even if they are in Greece? Surely the ECB has, since 2012 effectively bypassed the national treasuries and taken on their roles as far as supporting banks is concerned.
I know that the Eurozone says that bank deposits of up to 100,000 Euros are supposedly protected against bank collapse so is it not the case that the Eurozone should be ensuring the national banks stay open?
I am sure that the answer to this will be no but I am interested in why that is the case given that Draghi announced the ECB was indeed the Eurozone lender of last resort.
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I don't think that's it - they didn't ask me for extra KYC information or anything, and the letter was specifically about being a foreign resident.MarkHopkins said:edmundintokyo said:While we're muttering about banks has anyone else living outside the UK got a letter from their UK bank telling them they're not allowed to put money in their savings account any more and threatening to close the account if they do?
I'm wondering if this is a brilliant plan by HM Treasury to encourage entrepreneurship by making banking so annoying you pull all your savings out and sink them into your startup.
Might be a money-laundering issue. If they don't "know" you, then they won't be allowed to accept your money.0 -
I was thinking more in terms of the 100,000 Euro deposit guarantee.viewcode said:
I'm fairly sure "lender of last resort" is not the same as "must fund insolvent banks indefinitely". But other people on this thread no doubt know more about banking than I.Richard_Tyndall said:Another question. Since 2012 the ECB has declared itself to be the lender of last resort for the Eurozone. Does that not mean that they have a duty to provide solvency to the banks within the Eurozone even if they are in Greece? Surely the ECB has, since 2012 effectively bypassed the national treasuries and taken on their roles as far as supporting banks is concerned.
I know that the Eurozone says that bank deposits of up to 100,000 Euros are supposedly protected against bank collapse so is it not the case that the Eurozone should be ensuring the national banks stay open?
I am sure that the answer to this will be no but I am interested in why that is the case given that Draghi announced the ECB was indeed the Eurozone lender of last resort.0 -
Is it an ISA?edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that's it - they didn't ask me for extra KYC information or anything, and the letter was specifically about being a foreign resident.0 -
They don't provide solvency, they provide liquidity. And they haven't taken on the role of providing deposit guarantees - that's still the job of national governments, although there are now European standards on how much should be guaranteed etc.Richard_Tyndall said:Another question. Since 2012 the ECB has declared itself to be the lender of last resort for the Eurozone. Does that not mean that they have a duty to provide solvency to the banks within the Eurozone even if they are in Greece? Surely the ECB has, since 2012 effectively bypassed the national treasuries and taken on their roles as far as supporting banks is concerned.
I know that the Eurozone says that bank deposits of up to 100,000 Euros are supposedly protected against bank collapse so is it not the case that the Eurozone should be ensuring the national banks stay open?
I am sure that the answer to this will be no but I am interested in why that is the case given that Draghi announced the ECB was indeed the Eurozone lender of last resort.0 -
Nope - regular savings account, plus a fixed-term savings account.Richard_Nabavi said:
Is it an ISA?edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that's it - they didn't ask me for extra KYC information or anything, and the letter was specifically about being a foreign resident.0 -
It is the responsibility of individual governments to put in place the €100K deposit protection.Richard_Tyndall said:I was thinking more in terms of the 100,000 Euro deposit guarantee.
Greece has such a guarantee in theory, but not in practice.0 -
Nigel, others,
I'm about to go into a meeting, so cannot answer your questions regarding the solvency of banks right now. I'll not be back on until 7 or 8ish, but if people are around I'm happy to slap SandyRentool down :-)0 -
That is when the lender of last resort comes in - in our case the BoE which by definition has access to infinite money. They know what assets the bank has and so can make a loan against them. They would immediately credit the bank with sufficient electronic assets or literally send in the helicopters and drop the money off.watford30 said:
Fractional Reserve Banking.nigel4england said:
Robert, isn't every bank in the world insolvent?rcs1000 said:@richard_tyndall
The ECB's ELA is a scheme where the ECB works to prevent bank runs. The goal is to enable solvent - but illiquid - banks to access ECB liquidity. So, a bank turns up at the ECB and says "look I have a gazillion euros of x, but I can't turn the x into cash quickly, so could have money please".
The ELA is not meant to, and is specifically prohibited from, propping up insolvent banks.
By that I mean if every single depositor withdrew their money from their accounts on the same day, could any bank actually pay them all out?
The bank would have to recover its assets to repay the BoE - which would mean calling in loans early - resulting in many businesses and individuals going bankrupt.0 -
Off the topic of Greece, but on the topic of political betting - the Telegraph have (eventually!) done a wonderful obituary for Ron Pollard, who died last month aged 89. He was the first bookmaker in Britain to offer odds on politics, when with Ladbrokes in the 1960s
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11719070/Ron-Pollard-odds-maker-obituary.html0 -
I would dearly love to see the day when someone decides to question the banks in court. If the bank was making a person or business bankrupt and declare them insolvent, it would be fantastic if someone had a lawyer to fight it on the basis that 'how can you make me insolvent when you as an institution are insolvent'.Pulpstar said:Banks are only solvent providing their customers believe they are solvent.
The bank would be forced to reveal all their assets and liabilities, cash reserves etc. As we have discussed they rely on fractional reserve banking, and it would be great to see this exposed in court.
It would also be interesting to see what a judge made of it.
Any lawyers out there?0 -
In that case I expect it's bureaucratic nonsense. I expect they can't be bothered to run the money-laundering checks on you because it's not just a case of looking you up on a credit-check agency database.edmundintokyo said:Nope.
To be fair to the banks (someone has to be!), if this is the case it's really not their fault. Massive, intrusive regulation has been heaped up on them, most of it barmy, and they get mega fines if they don't have all the boxes correctly ticked. If it's expensive to tick them, and the account earns them tuppence ha'penny, they take a commercial decision to avoid the problem.0 -
Sounds like Germany has finally had enough with Greece no matter what.0
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If I recall correctly, the Merchant of Venice depicts a feckless debtor wastrel who reneges on a debt thru shameless legal trickery, whilst claiming the sympathy of the biased crowd due to historical antipathy towards the blameless and industrious lender.John_N said:Do people have to follow the propagandists and say 'meltdown'? It's a rejection of blackmail. It's saying no to Shylock. It's new hope.
(Yes, it's the one I did at school)
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I had a similar experience with an Insurance broker I've used for years - they now require 'proof of address' despite the fact that "the address" has been insured by them for over a decade....Richard_Nabavi said:
To be fair to the banks (someone has to be!), if this is the case it's really not their fault. Massive, intrusive regulation has been heaped up on them, most of it barmy, and they get mega fines if they don't have all the boxes correctly ticked. If it's expensive to tick them, and the account earns them tuppence ha'penny, they take a commercial decision to avoid the problem.edmundintokyo said:Nope.
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Banks are not (usually) insolvent.nigel4england said:
I would dearly love to see the day when someone decides to question the banks in court. If the bank was making a person or business bankrupt and declare them insolvent, it would be fantastic if someone had a lawyer to fight it on the basis that 'how can you make me insolvent when you as an institution are insolvent'.Pulpstar said:Banks are only solvent providing their customers believe they are solvent.
The bank would be forced to reveal all their assets and liabilities, cash reserves etc. As we have discussed they rely on fractional reserve banking, and it would be great to see this exposed in court.
It would also be interesting to see what a judge made of it.
Any lawyers out there?
The test of insolvency is whether you can meet your liabilities as they fall due. In normal circumstances, banks do meet their liabilities as they fall due, without fail.
The fact that they hypothetically might not be able to do so, if all the depositors with instant-access accounts wanted their money on the same day, does not mean that they are insolvent.0 -
Pour encourage les autres.Slackbladder said:Sounds like Germany has finally had enough with Greece no matter what.
In this case - Spain.0 -
An analysis of the players in the Greek government beyond PM & Finance Minister
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/11720641/Greece-has-been-taken-hostage-by-a-government-disguising-its-incompetence-as-heroism.html0 -
The hard line from Germany continues.
Deputy chancellor and economy minister Sigmar Gabriel has said Greece is now threatened with insolvency. And if it wants to stay in the eurozone it has to present proposals that go beyond what it has offered before.
Hmm, a somewhat less dramatic response than, ‘we shall smite thee for voting erroneously.’0 -
Willie Rennie recently launched a LibDems are listening campaign:
http://www.libdemvoice.org/rennie-scottish-liberal-democrats-are-listening-46052.html
The recent Scottish Panelbase poll found that an overwhelming majority of voters believe Alistair Carmichael should resign:
Should resign (total): 71%
Should not resign: 14%
Don’t know: 15%
If the LibDems are indeed listening to the voters, on this issue they are choosing to ignore the voters. If the LibDems are serious about ever recovering in Scotland, they need to start walking the talk or they'll likely face extinction in Holyrood 2016.
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Owen Jones:
Syriza was a revolt against this Europe of austerity and corporate power, in favour of a democratic, socially progressive Europe. Podemos in Spain is part of this revolt, as is Sinn Féin in Ireland. If the referendum had produced a yes, then it would have represented a potentially terminal defeat for this gathering pan-European revolt. Instead, it has now been emboldened. Unfortunately the EU elites are not stupid, and realise this. They fear – justifiably – that if Syriza is seen to win concessions, the rebellion will spread
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/06/greece-democracy-europe-eu0 -
I return from a few days away to find the Greeks hell bent on destroying the EU, and the Labour Party not inconceivably about to make Jeremy Corbyn leader.
It's not often I smile on a Monday....0 -
Of course all problems are solvable, but some are only solvable with unpalatable solutions. Greece could not accept what passed for a solution before them, now it's the rest of europes turn to pick between unideal solutions. They might go for one, or like the Greeks just say ' to hell with it' and take the hit.Sandpit said:Finance minister of Finland seems to be the only pragmatist in the EU today. Good to see someone with the right attitude at least.
https://twitter.com/alexstubb/status/6180217422468055040 -
Sounds like a pointless exercise - I don't think you fully understand the meaning of solvency.nigel4england said:
I would dearly love to see the day when someone decides to question the banks in court. If the bank was making a person or business bankrupt and declare them insolvent, it would be fantastic if someone had a lawyer to fight it on the basis that 'how can you make me insolvent when you as an institution are insolvent'.Pulpstar said:Banks are only solvent providing their customers believe they are solvent.
The bank would be forced to reveal all their assets and liabilities, cash reserves etc. As we have discussed they rely on fractional reserve banking, and it would be great to see this exposed in court.
It would also be interesting to see what a judge made of it.
Any lawyers out there?0 -
I love the idea of Corbyn as leader - his general shabbiness gives an uncanny reminder of Michael Foot - I remember how well that panned out.Bob__Sykes said:I return from a few days away to find the Greeks hell bent on destroying the EU, and the Labour Party not inconceivably about to make Jeremy Corbyn leader.
It's not often I smile on a Monday....0 -
Hahahahahahahahaha.......it's the way he tells them.CarlottaVance said:Owen Jones:
Syriza was a revolt against this Europe of austerity and corporate power, in favour of a democratic, socially progressive Europe. Podemos in Spain is part of this revolt, as is Sinn Féin in Ireland. If the referendum had produced a yes, then it would have represented a potentially terminal defeat for this gathering pan-European revolt. Instead, it has now been emboldened. Unfortunately the EU elites are not stupid, and realise this. They fear – justifiably – that if Syriza is seen to win concessions, the rebellion will spread
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/06/greece-democracy-europe-eu0 -
New car registrations reached a record high in June, growing 7% in the first half of this year.
The figures, released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT), show that 1,376,889 new cars were registered in the first six months of this year.
This narrowly beats the previous high of 1,376,565, recorded in the six months between January and June 2004.
http://news.sky.com/story/1514224/new-uk-car-sales-hit-record-high-in-june0 -
I'd imagine they don't want to increase their UK regulated assset basis (for tax purposes) from a client who they, presumably, won't be able to cross-sell loads of profitable products toedmundintokyo said:
Nope - regular savings account, plus a fixed-term savings account.Richard_Nabavi said:
Is it an ISA?edmundintokyo said:
I don't think that's it - they didn't ask me for extra KYC information or anything, and the letter was specifically about being a foreign resident.0 -
I must say I find the idea that German bankers are models of rectitude by comparison with Greek bankers a bit surprising. In the period leading up the credit crisis German banks behaved dreadfully - frittering away without understanding much of their money on products they did not understand. And as for Deutsche Bank: well, hmm, ethical conduct is not the first thought that comes to mind. Google them to see what they've been up to.
The Greeks may well be feckless. But the Germans have airbrushed out of their memory much of their own economic history and the recent behaviour of their banks.
This is one of those cases where you rather hope that both sides could lose.
Perhaps it is also a day where someone with time on their hands could dig out all those quotes from various Euro-worthies when the euro went live on how this was going to herald everlasting peace and prosperity for all.
I rather thought - though doubtless someone will correct me - that even France and Germany failed to comply with the convergence and other rules needed for euro entry and that the rules were changed to accommodate them.0 -
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