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So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.0 -
I wouldn't blame the Tories for giving up on Scotland. Let's face it, Scottish independence is inevitable sooner or later (and was the moment Devolution began), so what's the point in even trying to win back an electorate that won't even be yours in a few years? As for those Tories actually in Scotland, they will have to begin a new party of their own.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.0 -
Yeah I have only been keeping a record two days, and obviously there was a bit of a big movement in a poll on the first day... I wouldn't read much into the findings as yet, but one thing you can say with certainty is that the polls so far don't indicate progress for the Conservatives, so "something starting to happen" is unfounded IMOGIN1138 said:
1. From what I remember most people thought the ICM Con 39% poll was OTT and expected them to report a reduced Con lead the following week. Which is exactly what has happened.isam said:
Yes, but it hardly helps the cause to dismiss that, as it was being hailed as a breakthrough when the 39% poll came out, and many Tories found ways of substantiating the 39%RobD said:
Even if I let you dismiss the one you don't like, the Tories are -1 on the week.. I don't see how that can be hailed as some sort of step in the right direction
Critical point here is that ICM continues to show Con ahead.
2. It''s only Tuesday.
They don't indicate progress for Labour either, that's true
Maybe tomorrow will change that we will have to wait and see
As for the 39% ICM, a lot was made of it by the throw in cheerers, they cant have it both ways0 -
Where have I said that? If you read my original post, it states that the Tories would be mad not to do what they are doing as it clearly has traction in England.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
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Those expecting maverick and outspoken SNP MPs have clearly forgotten this:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-accused-of-gagging-own-mps-like-stalin-1-3732693
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Which is of course what's so Faustian about what's happening to SLAB.KentRising said:
Scottish independence is inevitable sooner or later (and was the moment Devolution began)SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
They have entirely brought about their own downfall by creating and then feeding the Independence monster in the first place.
As the Good Lord (Ashcroft) say's:
You reap what you sow.
Amen.
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Got it: the Tories like the Union, it's just that they don't like the Scots. Now there's a recipe for long-term unity. :-)Mortimer said:
Heart over head dear boy. Patriotism before politics. We believe in the good done by the Union; the security, the shared history, culture and prosperity it has facillitated. Opposing nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Opposing weak socialist leaders who could be unduly influenced by nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Conservatives believe that all should appreciate be proud of the Union, not agitate against it - and we'll always speak out on this issue.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, it's a puzzle why the Tories wanted to maintain the Union. I don't blame them in the slightest for using the line of attack - they would be mad not to as it clearly resonates - but what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay: they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again, they know they face a struggle to win a majority with Scotland in the equation and it's not as if Scotland is a huge net contributor economically. If they are still convinced Unionists how do they show that to the Scots post-GE when their campaign is basically all about telling right wing English people how dreadful the 75% of Scots are who vote Labour and SNP?The_Woodpecker said:
Good post.isam said:
What is "the E&W telling them enough is enough"?nigel4england said:
Did anyone ask the English and Welsh if they are happy to give them more power? Think you will find this is the E&W telling them enough is enough.isam said:
The Scots voted to stay part of the UK in a referendum that many on here were crapping themselves over for fear "their country might be lost forever" etckle4 said:
Part of the deal for them staying seems to be them wanting more power than before.. we have to deal with it and stop blabbing. Unionists cant have their cake and eat it, this is the price of the union remaining intact
Like a wife threatening divorce and you begging her to stay.. if she stays she will have gained more leverage and if you want her to stay indefinitely, you have to suffer it.
I don't get it... Uniosts were desperate for Scotland to stay part of the union, and they voted to do so.. but more Scots want SNP to represent them than any other party. That's the way it is, how can anyone complain?
Incidentally, some pretty desperate smeary stuff re: Shapps. It was obvious that Labour were worried when Darling had to go all over Today this morning, soon it will be Jonah Brown and we'll know for sure they are in real trouble. Sub 200 labour seats, anyone?
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Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.0 -
There are plenty of countries where power is devolved and there are no serious independence parties. But if you are right - and I suspect you are - why did they bother campaigning so hard for a No vote?KentRising said:
I wouldn't blame the Tories for giving up on Scotland. Let's face it, Scottish independence is inevitable sooner or later (and was the moment Devolution began), so what's the point in even trying to win back an electorate that won't even be yours in a few years? As for those Tories actually in Scotland, they will have to begin a new party of their own.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
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Eh?SouthamObserver said:Mortimer said:SouthamObserver said:
Got it: the Tories like the Union, it's just that they don't like the Scots. Now there's a recipe for long-term unity. :-)The_Woodpecker said:
Heart over head dear boy. Patriotism before politics. We believe in the good done by the Union; the security, the shared history, culture and prosperity it has facillitated. Opposing nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Opposing weak socialist leaders who could be unduly influenced by nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Conservatives believe that all should appreciate be proud of the Union, not agitate against it - and we'll always speak out on this issue.isam said:
Yep, it's a puzzle why the Tories wanted to maintain the Union. I don't blame them in the slightest for using the line of attack - they would be mad not to as it clearly resonates - but what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay: they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again, they know they face a struggle to win a majority with Scotland in the equation and it's not as if Scotland is a huge net contributor economically. If they are still convinced Unionists how do they show that to the Scots post-GE when their campaign is basically all about telling right wing English people how dreadful the 75% of Scots are who vote Labour and SNP?nigel4england said:
Incidentally, some pretty desperate smeary stuff re: Shapps. It was obvious that Labour were worried when Darling had to go all over Today this morning, soon it will be Jonah Brown and we'll know for sure they are in real trouble. Sub 200 labour seats, anyone?
Love the Union, love the Scots, dislike the petty nationalism the SNP are engendering. It creates unnecessary borders and barriers to trade, understanding and the common good.
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Just caught up with the big news of the day - The tide has turned for Con on The Arse:JackW said:
BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****
The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to the JNN the contents of the latest ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections. (Changes From 18th April Projection) :
Con 303 (+1) .. Lab 253 (-2) .. LibDem 29 (+1) .. SNP 40 (NC) .. PC 2 .. NI 18 .. UKIP 2 .. Respect 1 .. Green 1 .. Ind 0 .. Speaker 1
Conservatives 23 seats short of a majority
Turnout Projection .. 67% (NC)
......................................................................................
"JackW Dozen" - 13 seats that will shape the General Election result :
Bury North - Con Hold
Pudsey - Likely Con Hold
Broxtowe - Likely Lab Gain from TCTC
Warwickshire North - TCTC
Cambridge - LibDem Hold
Ipswich - Con Hold
Watford - TCTC
Croydon Central - Con Hold
Enfield North - Likely Lab Gain
Cornwall North - TCTC
Great Yarmouth - Con Hold
Vale of Glamorgan - Con Hold
Ochil and South Perthshire - SNP Gain
Changes From 18 Apr - Broxtowe moves from TCTC to Likely Lab Gain
TCTC - Too Close To Call - Less than 500 votes
Likely Hold/Gain - 500 - 2500 votes
Gain/Hold - Over 2500
.......................................................................................
ARSE is sponsored by Auchentennach Fine Pies (Est 1745)
WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
JNN - Jacobite News Network
ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors
APLOMB - Auchentennach Pies Leading Outsales Mainland Britain0 -
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
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I don't think I will bother with the Opinion Pollsters any more. Ruthie Davidson can give us a running total for Scotland once the PV vote boxes get sampled. Is there anybody doing the same in England & Wales
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The Scots were promised a moon on a stick to stay part of the Union. You can have your cake and eat it they were told.
Labour should really have thought through the consequences of becoming the "red pawns" of the equation. 0 -
You do know it's illegal to write about PV returns before the polls close?Itwasrigged said:I don't think I will bother with the Opinion Pollsters any more. Ruthie Davidson can give us a running total for Scotland once the PV vote boxes get sampled. Is there anybody doing the same in England & Wales
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Also, be careful about tweeting anything to do with postal votes and then the words "innocent face" immediately afterwards.Sandpit said:
You do know it's illegal to write about PV returns before the polls close?Itwasrigged said:I don't think I will bother with the Opinion Pollsters any more. Ruthie Davidson can give us a running total for Scotland once the PV vote boxes get sampled. Is there anybody doing the same in England & Wales
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I know this may be difficult for unthinking lefities (or indeed unthinking politicos of all parties) to understand, but it is possible to disagree with someone and not hate them.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
SO, you're far from an unthinking lefty. Think you're calling this wrong. My concern as a Scot-loving Tory is that so many Scots are being duped into nationalism. I think it fully right that Major and others are calling the SNP out on this.
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Liberal Democrat Scottish president Sir Malcolm Bruce said:SouthamObserver said:Those expecting maverick and outspoken SNP MPs have clearly forgotten this:
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-accused-of-gagging-own-mps-like-stalin-1-3732693
Scottish Conservative chief whip John Lamont said
Labour Deputy leader Kezia Dugdale added
Tremendous stuff.0 -
We agree on that. But this campaign will only make the SNP stronger. That's not a reason for the Tories not to employ the strategy they have hit upon - they should, it will win them the GE - but it will create serious strains on the Union moving forward, in my view. I just wonder whether they care or whether they have now given up on it. If they have, it will represent a tremendous victory for the SNP, who must be revelling in this current turn of events.Mortimer said:
Eh?SouthamObserver said:Mortimer said:SouthamObserver said:
Got it: the Tories like the Union, it's just that they don't like the Scots. Now there's a recipe for long-term unity. :-)The_Woodpecker said:
Heart over head dear boy. Patriotism before politics. We believe in the good done by the Union; the security, the shared history, culture and prosperity it has facillitated. Opposing nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Opposing weak socialist leaders who could be unduly influenced by nationalists is entirely consistent with this. Conservatives believe that all should appreciate be proud of the Union, not agitate against it - and we'll always speak out on this issue.isam said:
Yep, it's a puzzle why the Tories wanted to maintain the Union. I don't blame them in the slightest for using the line of attack - they would be mad not to as it clearly resonates - but what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay: they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again, they know they face a struggle to win a majority with Scotland in the equation and it's not as if Scotland is a huge net contributor economically. If they are still convinced Unionists how do they show that to the Scots post-GE when their campaign is basically all about telling right wing English people how dreadful the 75% of Scots are who vote Labour and SNP?nigel4england said:
Incidentally, some pretty desperate smeary stuff re: Shapps. It was obvious that Labour were worried when Darling had to go all over Today this morning, soon it will be Jonah Brown and we'll know for sure they are in real trouble. Sub 200 labour seats, anyone?
Love the Union, love the Scots, dislike the petty nationalism the SNP are engendering. It creates unnecessary borders and barriers to trade, understanding and the common good.
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See the huge surge in North & Leith registrations today by the way ?Itwasrigged said:I don't think I will bother with the Opinion Pollsters any more. Ruthie Davidson can give us a running total for Scotland once the PV vote boxes get sampled. Is there anybody doing the same in England & Wales
SNPOut's motley crew or more SNPers registering ?0 -
Scottish Labour spent the last thirty years demonising the Tories, and England, even eliding the two. They are now reaping the consequences.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.
You are right of course that if the Conservatives form the next government, the relationship with the Scots is going to be a major issue. You are wrong, however, to imply that it would be any different if they don't form the next government, and also to imply that the current campaign makes a ha'penth of difference.
The plain fact of the matter is the Nicola Sturgeon is in a 'Heads we win, tails we don't lose' position. If Cameron remains PM, he'll be demonised even more than he has been so far, as a very convenient bogeyman for the SNP.
If Ed Miliband becomes the next PM, he'll be pushed around and humiliated, making the SNP look as though they are 'standing up for Scotland'. For example, Trident would be a brilliant issue for the SNP, since it would be pushed through with Conservative support. The SNP can't lose.
Responsibility for this state of affairs rests with one party only: Labour. They set up the divisiveness in the first place, and nurtured it with a half-baked devolution structure which provides a perfect platform for a nationalist party.
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55% of Scotland's residents preferred the British brand of nationalism. Are you saying that those 55% were duped? They are after all British NationalistsMortimer said:
I know this may be difficult for unthinking lefities (or indeed unthinking politicos of all parties) to understand, but it is possible to disagree with someone and not hate them.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
SO, you're far from an unthinking lefty. Think you're calling this wrong. My concern as a Scot-loving Tory is that so many Scots are being duped into nationalism. I think it fully right that Major and others are calling the SNP out on this. 0 -
Scotland is a left wing country that since 1979 has been ruled Thatcher, Major, Blair and CameronMortimer said:
I know this may be difficult for unthinking lefities (or indeed unthinking politicos of all parties) to understand, but it is possible to disagree with someone and not hate them.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
SO, you're far from an unthinking lefty. Think you're calling this wrong. My concern as a Scot-loving Tory is that so many Scots are being duped into nationalism. I think it fully right that Major and others are calling the SNP out on this.
So in order to stay they're saying 'no more'
No one is making people vote SNP... Many who do voted No. They're not being duped they're being clever
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Bang on Richard.Richard_Nabavi said:
Scottish Labour spent the last thirty years demonising the Tories, and England, even eliding the two. They are now reaping the consequences.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.
You are right of course that if the Conservatives form the next government, the relationship with the Scots is going to be a major issue. You are wrong, however, to imply that it would be any different if they don't form the next government, and also to imply that the current campaign makes a ha'penth of difference.
The plain fact of the matter is the Nicola Sturgeon is in a 'Heads we win, tails we don't lose' position. If Cameron remains PM, he'll be demonised even more than he has been so far, as a very convenient bogeyman for the SNP.
If Ed Miliband becomes the next PM, he'll be pushed around and humiliated, making the SNP look as though they are 'standing up for Scotland'. For example, Trident would be a brilliant issue for the SNP, since it would be pushed through with Conservative support. The SNP can't lose.
Responsibility for this state of affairs rests with one party only: Labour. They set up the divisiveness in the first place, and nurtured it with a half-baked devolution structure which provides a perfect platform for a nationalist party.
In my view the Conservatives are hammering this SNP message home for two reasons:
1) it has serious, serious impact in i) the UKIP/possible Tories waverers in the close LD>Tory and Lab>Tory marginals ii) from what I've seen of BBC and C4 vox pop tonight, the midlands in general, where elections are won and lost
2) They seriously think calling the SNP out as a divisive and destructive party is important and correct. Sometimes you've got to do what is right for the country now in order to do right by the country in the long run. I mean the whole country. This wonderful United Kingdom (and NI).
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Richard_Nabavi said:
Scottish Labour spent the last thirty years demonising the Tories, and England, even eliding the two. They are now reaping the consequences.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.
You are right of course that if the Conservatives form the next government, the relationship with the Scots is going to be a major issue. You are wrong, however, to imply that it would be any different if they don't form the next government, and also to imply that the current campaign makes a ha'penth of difference.
The plain fact of the matter is the Nicola Sturgeon is in a 'Heads we win, tails we don't lose' position. If Cameron remains PM, he'll be demonised even more than he has been so far, as a very convenient bogeyman for the SNP.
If Ed Miliband becomes the next PM, he'll be pushed around and humiliated, making the SNP look as though they are 'standing up for Scotland'. For example, Trident would be a brilliant issue for the SNP, since it would be pushed through with Conservative support. The SNP can't lose.
Responsibility for this state of affairs rests with one party only: Labour. They set up the divisiveness in the first place, and nurtured it with a half-baked devolution structure which provides a perfect platform for a nationalist party.
Enoch Powell
Shortly before he died in 1997, the Blair Government won the Election, and Powell’s comment was: “They have voted to break up the United Kingdom,” because he thought the Blair Government’s policies on devolution would have that effect.
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I always thought that bookmakers suckered people into losing money or balancing book as they would describe it, so where does Graham Sharp come from and what has he been doing since he left Everton?
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@Mortimer - Major is not calling out the SNP; Major is attacking Labour for an English audience.
Frankly, for me the Union is more important than who wins the GE. I would happily (maybe that's not the right word) take a Tory government if it ends up having no effect on the viability of the UK. After all, governments can change, but once the Union is gone it is gone forever. We can debate how we got to where we are - and I am sure we see it very differently - but we are here and my fear is that this election has become the tipping point. I very much hope that I am wrong, though, and that the Tories have something planned for afterwards that will repair their relationship with the 75% of Scots who vote SNP and Labour, or at least enough of them to keep out country together on a long-term basis. But I cannot for the life of me see what it might be. Instead, I think that the Tories have given up on Scotland. That's perfectly understandable from a political power perspective - they have much more chance of winning without Scotland being in the frame - but it is something that I very much regret.
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Whoever wins, the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the Union will dominate the next few years.
If the Tories win, it will certainly make impossible the holding of a European referendum in two years time.
I just can’t see any sane Government embarking on that when there is so much unfinished business from the last referendum.
Not least, any renegotiation of terms with Europe would require the UK PM to be in a position of strength in the country -- which is hardly the case if facing a Scottish secession.
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isam said:
Scotland is a left wing country that since 1979 has been ruled Thatcher, Major, Blair and CameronMortimer said:
I know this may be difficult for unthinking lefities (or indeed unthinking politicos of all parties) to understand, but it is possible to disagree with someone and not hate them.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued. re better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
SO, you're far from an unthinking lefty. Think you're calling this wrong. My concern as a Scot-loving Tory is that so many Scots are being duped into nationalism. I think it fully right that Major and others are calling the SNP out on this.
So in order to stay they're saying 'no more'
No one is making people vote SNP... Many who do voted No. They're not being duped they're being clever
Sam, I know you're not making this point, but the 'we didn't vote for these' is the most childish argument deployed in the history of representative democracy. Being a sore loser is not justification for voting for divisive nationalism that will lead to instability and people who can scarce afford it ending up worse off.
(Almost) half of my life has been spent under Labour rule. I don't want to leave the country because of it.
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YBardd Sturgeon has said she will only likely hold another referendum in the short-term if the UK votes out of the EU and Scotland votes in, if the Tories win or are largest party then an EU referendum will happen within 2 years renegotiation or not, the UK is more likely to have quit the EU than Scotland quit the UK on that basis, though it is possible that could happen soon after the former. Indeed, if Cameron is PM and does not hold a referendum he would be toppled by his backbenchers, UKIP and the DUP0
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But the UK isn't one 'country' though is it? It's not one country of four regions but two countries, a principality and - what should we call it? - a province. I'm completely relaxed about the idea of an independent England. Maybe it's a generational thing. I tend to write 'English' as my nationality, not British, just as 82% of Scots see themselves as Scottish first and 'British' second - even those pro Union. Nostalgia I think is what keeps Cameron's generation fighting for a Union which it is fairly clear has become untenable, at least politically.SouthamObserver said:
There are plenty of countries where power is devolved and there are no serious independence parties. But if you are right - and I suspect you are - why did they bother campaigning so hard for a No vote?KentRising said:
I wouldn't blame the Tories for giving up on Scotland. Let's face it, Scottish independence is inevitable sooner or later (and was the moment Devolution began), so what's the point in even trying to win back an electorate that won't even be yours in a few years? As for those Tories actually in Scotland, they will have to begin a new party of their own.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Not sure you can claim 75% of Scotland's electorate is intent on inflicting misery on voters across the UK and then hope to rebuild your brand and appeal in Scotland. We shall see. Or maybe not, if the Scots just decide they are better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.0 -
SO Except the Tories are the only unionist party with a chance of increasing their number of Scottish seats and voteshare in . Kentrising nothing inevitable about independence, most Scots want more powers not a complete break ultimately0
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ELBOW for YouGov polls only so far this week (assuming 1500 voting sample tonight) = Lab lead 0.2 (was 0.7 for the first two YG polls this week).
Non-YouGov ELBOW = Lab lead 0.30 -
Obviously, I disagree with you. As usual, you will not accept that the Tories have any blame for anything. In Richard World it is OK for the Tories to demonise Labour; but immoral for Labour to return the compliment. How tedious.Richard_Nabavi said:
Scottish Labour spent the last thirty years demonising the Tories, and England, even eliding the two. They are now reaping the consequences.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the Scots. But, as I say down-thread, the Tories are right to be doing it if they want to win the election. Any party would do the same. The intriguing thing is what happens when they have won. If they seriously believe there are no consequences for the Union in demonising the 75% of Scottish voters who back the SNP and Labour, then I fear they will be sorely mistaken; though as a unionist I very much hope that I am wrong.
You are right of course that if the Conservatives form the next government, the relationship with the Scots is going to be a major issue. You are wrong, however, to imply that it would be any different if they don't form the next government, and also to imply that the current campaign makes a ha'penth of difference.
The plain fact of the matter is the Nicola Sturgeon is in a 'Heads we win, tails we don't lose' position. If Cameron remains PM, he'll be demonised even more than he has been so far, as a very convenient bogeyman for the SNP.
If Ed Miliband becomes the next PM, he'll be pushed around and humiliated, making the SNP look as though they are 'standing up for Scotland'. For example, Trident would be a brilliant issue for the SNP, since it would be pushed through with Conservative support. The SNP can't lose.
Responsibility for this state of affairs rests with one party only: Labour. They set up the divisiveness in the first place, and nurtured it with a half-baked devolution structure which provides a perfect platform for a nationalist party.
Anyway, the Tories have hit upon a great electoral strategy that will probably see them win next month. Let's see what happens next. My guess is that they have now completely burned their bridges with the Scots, but I very much hope that I am wrong. Frankly, a humiliated Ed Miliband is - for me - a far better option. I would be happy for Scotland to return 59 SNPs from here to eternity. What matter much, much more is the future of the UK. My sense is that if we get a Labour-led government, whatever humiliations Ed suffers it will force an SNP rethink at some stage because Scotland will be far less inclined to want out.
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I have it on good authority (at least from the grateful messages received from Scottish friends and colleagues in the wake of the referendum vote) that a silent but significant proportion of Scots are very pleased when they hear the SNP called out for what they are by any politician. This is the silent proportion that ensured the Union continues.SouthamObserver said:@Mortimer - Major is not calling out the SNP; Major is attacking Labour for an English audience.
Frankly, for me the Union is more important than who wins the GE. I would happily (maybe that's not the right word) take a Tory government if it ends up having no effect on the viability of the UK. After all, governments can change, but once the Union is gone it is gone forever. We can debate how we got to where we are - and I am sure we see it very differently - but we are here and my fear is that this election has become the tipping point. I very much hope that I am wrong, though, and that the Tories have something planned for afterwards that will repair their relationship with the 75% of Scots who vote SNP and Labour, or at least enough of them to keep out country together on a long-term basis. But I cannot for the life of me see what it might be. Instead, I think that the Tories have given up on Scotland. That's perfectly understandable from a political power perspective - they have much more chance of winning without Scotland being in the frame - but it is something that I very much regret.
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foxinsoxuk said:
Schapps is a prat; but nobody cares who he is; so it doesn't matter.williamglenn said:
if this blows up Cameron only has himself to blame for failing to sack Shapps when the Michael Green/Corinne Stockheath exposé first hit the press.FrancisUrquhart said:
Are Labour going to go big on this? Maybe their resident wikipedia expert Chuka can tell us all about this stuff?RobD said:
Well the BBC have gone with the denial, not the story itself.Tykejohnno said:
And the bbc it seems.Stark_Dawning said:
Apparently someone has been hacking around with Wikipedia to make it look as if it was Shapps - the same anonymous user writing nice things about him and horrid things about others. An obvious hoax, but the Guardian is running with it strangely.Pulpstar said:
Who to ?Tykejohnno said:
Laura Kuenssberg ✔ @bbclaurak
Shapps considering complaining, inc under criminal law that protects candidates during elex period - more on #newsnight
What about
?
BBC Politics ✔ @BBCPolitics
Grant Shapps denies changing Wikipedia entries about himself & other #Conservative members http://bbc.co.uk/electionlive pic.twitter.com/4kQZmuAM0v0 -
I do think the attacks on the SNP influencing the future Govt remind me of the attacks on the “Welsh windbag” Kinnock in 1992.
The attacks on him in 1992 laid heavy emphasis on his Welshness. Unelectable, ginger, leftwing and Welsh. Do we want the Welsh windbag running the country?
And they worked.
So, I tend to agree with Southam that what worked in 1992 will work again for the Tories.0 -
Mrs Schapps might, just might if she doesn't already know. Still if election decided on prat count it's still close and is high a winner or loser? 95% of population hasn't got a clue above how big is bribe to me, not understanding that a bribe has to be paid up front.0
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75% of Scots will vote Labour or SNP. The Tories are saying these people are going to vote for an arrangement that will deliver chaos, misery and potentially leave the UK defenceless. I am all for calling out nationalism and dislike the SNP's divisive lies intensely, but I don't see or hear the Tories doing that. In fact, Osborne - for one - has gone out of his way to praise Sturgeon.Mortimer said:
I have it on good authority (at least from the grateful messages received from Scottish friends and colleagues in the wake of the referendum vote) that a silent but significant proportion of Scots are very pleased when they hear the SNP called out for what they are by any politician. This is the silent proportion that ensured the Union continues.SouthamObserver said:@Mortimer - Major is not calling out the SNP; Major is attacking Labour for an English audience.
Frankly, for me the Union is more important than who wins the GE. I would happily (maybe that's not the right word) take a Tory government if it ends up having no effect on the viability of the UK. After all, governments can change, but once the Union is gone it is gone forever. We can debate how we got to where we are - and I am sure we see it very differently - but we are here and my fear is that this election has become the tipping point. I very much hope that I am wrong, though, and that the Tories have something planned for afterwards that will repair their relationship with the 75% of Scots who vote SNP and Labour, or at least enough of them to keep out country together on a long-term basis. But I cannot for the life of me see what it might be. Instead, I think that the Tories have given up on Scotland. That's perfectly understandable from a political power perspective - they have much more chance of winning without Scotland being in the frame - but it is something that I very much regret.
If the SNP could have dreamed up a GE campaign they could not have done better than this. They are absolutely loving it.
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But the fact is that Scotland is a country that votes left and gets right.. Now they have stumbled upon a way to influence the way the uk is run like never before. And I'm sure many will see the 'undue influence' of the SNP in a Miliband govt as small beer compared to 23 years of thatcher major and Cameron as their PMMortimer said:isam said:
Scotland is a left wing country that since 1979 has been ruled Thatcher, Major, Blair and CameronMortimer said:
I kn calling this wrong. My concern as a Scot-loving Tory is that so many Scots are being duped into nationalism. I think it fully right that Major and others are calling the SNP out on this.SouthamObserver said:
Not Scotland; the areRichard_Nabavi said:
Yes, in a hilarious election campaign one of the more hilarious things is the sight of SNP and Labour supporters both having the nerve to criticise the Tories for allegedly portraying Scotland as the 'enemy'.philiph said:
So the SNP and Slab can attack Tories but Tories can't retaliate. SNP and SLAB are renowned for nothing more than a gentle and considered mild critique of the Tory party.SouthamObserver said:
Expertly argued. re better off out of a country governed by a party that is prepared to portray so many of them as the enemy.Scott_P said:
Because they believe in the Union.SouthamObserver said:what I don't get is why they were so keen on Scotland to stay:
BollocksSouthamObserver said:they have clearly given up on ever being a force there again
Apart from that, good post
Labour's hypocrisy is so ingrained, so fundamental that perhaps it's not even hypocrisy: I think they really don't get it.
So in order to stay they're saying 'no more'
No one is making people vote SNP... Many who do voted No. They're not being duped they're being clever
Sam, I know you're not making this point, but the 'we didn't vote for these' is the most childish argument deployed in the history of representative democracy. Being a sore loser is not justification for voting for divisive nationalism that will lead to instability and people who can scarce afford it ending up worse off.
(Almost) half of my life has been spent under Labour rule. I don't want to leave the country because of it.0 -
SO Yet it is still possible the Tories will form a government without the SNP with LD and DUP support, meaning it is NI not Scotland which ends up with the favours, meanwhile, once the Smith plans are passed a Tory led government means we can start talking about an EU referendum rather than Scotland as the most pressing constitutional issue0
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I think Ruthie will be staying away from those samplings this time though. Politics needs some humour!Sandpit said:
You do know it's illegal to write about PV returns before the polls close?Itwasrigged said:I don't think I will bother with the Opinion Pollsters any more. Ruthie Davidson can give us a running total for Scotland once the PV vote boxes get sampled. Is there anybody doing the same in England & Wales
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In breaking political news from the other side of the world, NZ PM John Key issued an apology for repeatedly pulling the ponytail on a waitress in a local cafe over a 6 month period.
He'd go into the cafe with his wife and police protection detail, sneak up behind her and pull it. Even complaints to his police protection detail and threats to punch him if he did it again didn't stop it.
Weirdest political story of the year yet ?0 -
THought I watched Salmond tonight on Sky, BBC and STV making a speech at Glasgow University. However since PBers say he hasn't been on TV I must have imagined his remarks on desperate Major.0
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Sorry, you triggered my pedantry gene. The UK is a sovereign state definitely, and arguably also a country. England is also a country. Scotland is also a country. Wales is also a country: the present country of Wales and the historic Principality of Wales do not share the same borders. Northern Ireland is also a country (although that statement is not universally accepted), and it does not share the same borders with the historic Province of Ulster. Calling "Northern Ireland" a province or "Wales" a principality is like calling the Russian Federation the Soviet Union.KentRising said:But the UK isn't one 'country' though is it? It's not one country of four regions but two countries, a principality and - what should we call it? - a province. I'm completely relaxed about the idea of an independent England. Maybe it's a generational thing. I tend to write 'English' as my nationality, not British, just as 82% of Scots see themselves as Scottish first and 'British' second - even those pro Union. Nostalgia I think is what keeps Cameron's generation fighting for a Union which it is fairly clear has become untenable, at least politically.
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Unfortunately not. Vice President Biden has a reputation for inappropriate touching that seems well deserved.asjohnstone said:In breaking political news from the other side of the world, NZ PM John Key issued an apology for repeatedly pulling the ponytail on a waitress in a local cafe over a 6 month period.
He'd go into the cafe with his wife and police protection detail, sneak up behind her and pull it. Even complaints to his police protection detail and threats to punch him if he did it again didn't stop it.
Weirdest political story of the year yet ?
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I raised a question yesterday about the reliability of Oddschecker's odds on seat level after finding a discrepancy. Tissue Price was kind enough to reply (thank you, btw) and raised the point that when it comes to seat levels, Oddschecker only tracks price changes, not line changes. While I think that can't be true for all cases, it is worrying. So two questions as follows:
1) Do you agree/disagree with the statement that "Oddschecker is not a reliable source when it comes to seat levels"
2) Are there alternative archives of seat levels?
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Is the Wikipedia entry for the latest yougov wrong? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election It seems someone has upgraded UKIP and downgraded the others.0
This discussion has been closed.