Undefined discussion subject.

surbiton

You are still not keeping up. The phone caller was the French Counsel General who has just comprehensively denied saying it in the phone call.

The person at the other end of the phone was a (probably junior) FCO official. This sort of FO gossip gets criculated around the system all the time usually as reports back from Ambassadors abroad to London.

It certainly would be sent to the Scotland Office for example. So the question is who wrote it and who leaked it.

Incidentally, the excruciating Balls has just claimed it was the offcial account of the meeting. No-body (not even the Torygraph) is claiming that and the real point is not that the totally useless Balls said it but that he was allowed to do so uncorrected by the Sky interviewer.

About as much balance from Sky as asking a current Torygraph jouro like Hodges and a past one like Oborne to comment on the story.

It will all feed into establishment dirty tricks in Scotland. Mark my words this like the assault on Salmond of two weesk ago will end up as grist to the SNP mill.

Indigo said:

surbiton said:

FrankBooth said:

Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.

In which case, the "caller" who suggested that comes into suspicion. He presumably works in the French Embassy.

There appears to be a chain of minute taking. It appears that someone took minutes in the meeting, someone else read those minutes over the phone to a third party in London, who wrote down the minute that was leaked, and commented there in that he felt it likely that comment hand been made and something must have been lost in translation. Either the minute taker, the guy on the phone, or the London minute take might have seen fit to modify the contents of the minute, or they might be accurate.

One or both of the last two is/are the perpetrator(s)

David Herdson said:

The swing votes this parliament have never been between Con and Lab.

This is one of the laziest assertions of this Parliament that has been made repeatedly despite my attempts to expose people to the evidence of the data. If you care to look at the ICM polls in the aftermath of the Omnishambles budget in 2012, you will see that direct Conservative to Labour swing voters made a greater contribution to the then Labour lead over the Conservatives than either 2010 Liberal Democrats swinging to Labour or Conservative defectors to UKIP.

What has changed since then is that these voters have either (a) swung back to the Conservatives, or (b) swung further off to UKIP.

Furthermore, when we now see signs of an increased Liberal Conservative vote, as 2010 Liberal Democrats now swing behind Cameron in increasing numbers, then the net benefit for Labour from 2010 Liberal Democrats declines, and the direct swing voters become even more important.

Surely it matters not a jot to Cameron whether a Scottish seat is won by Slab or the SNP. Both have the effect of preventing him becoming PM

TheScreamingEagles said:

SMukesh said:

Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?

It's hysterical innit?

The Nats who are getting over excited about journalists lying, and demanding their resignation, were very quiet when Salmond lied about his legal advice about an Independent Scotland's membership of the EU.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/oct/23/alex-salmond-eu-legal-advice-scotland

you lie yet again

Indigo said:

malcolmg said:

SMukesh said:

Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?

Why not when you are dealing with lying cheating no-good toerags in Westminster on a daily basis. They and their paid lackeys like the Telegraph are below contempt and rotten to the core.

You should stop beating about the bush and tell us what you really think.

I was being polite, I have been warned previously about using bad words

HYUFD said:

MaxPB Latest populus has Labour ahead 34.5 to 33.7 in England and Wales and Blair won most seats in England in 2005 even when behind on votes. Salmond will prop up a Labour government and make himself kingmaker before he does a deal on EVEL

Populus online is an untested method, ICM, Ipsos and YouGov have the Tories ahead in England.

surbiton said:

Moses_ said:

Sky news ticker being unhelpful To Ed


Sturgeon denies it rolls by
The French deny it rolls by


Ed Milliband says these are damning revelations rolls by

LOL

The whole controversy is helpful to Miliband - correct or not ! There is no smoke without fire.

Things must be going great for Ed - he has to clutch at a third-hand memo of someone saying he isn't fit to be Prime Minister for comfort.

Roger said:

Surely it matters not a jot to Cameron whether a Scottish seat is won by Slab or the SNP. Both have the effect of preventing him becoming PM

Meanwhile a village is looking for its idiot, someone call them and say he has been found.

Pong said:

Indigo said:

malcolmg said:

JohnLilburne said:

malcolmg said:

Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.

Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.

Is there a difference

You have to be joking. The Tories have been fighting a Labour supporting Civil Service since they got into office. McBride was a civil servant remember. Ask Michael Gove how it was trying to reform his Tory civil service in the Department of Education.

I work on the basis that so long as everyone agrees that the civil service is partisan against their team, they're probably reasonably impartial.

Remember it's the civil services job to stop the elected idiots ruining the country.

I posted what the filth monster said last night...he said he would have done something like this when in government, but he wouldn't have been such an amateur about it. He would have leaked it to the French press and pointed some helpful British journo towards it. He said in his opinion (for what it is worth), it was an amateur job, thus not likely the Tories and that the first quote in the original piece about this leak was Lib Dem response.

Some barking comments on Twitter re frenchlettergate. BBC on side of Government, blaming Unionists, Tories, SLAB, LDs, French, Jounalists anyone but St Nicola of Urgeon.

TheScreamingEagles said:

JohnO said:

Any polls expected tonight or are they also taking an Easter break?

I think we should be getting an Opinium Poll for the Observer, not sure about anyone else.

The fieldwork for Opinium will probably be before the debates.

MaxPB Even if they do it is only by a small percentage and still possible Labour could win most seats in England even if behind on votes

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pong said:

Indigo said:

malcolmg said:

JohnLilburne said:

malcolmg said:

Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.

Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.

Is there a difference

You have to be joking. The Tories have been fighting a Labour supporting Civil Service since they got into office. McBride was a civil servant remember. Ask Michael Gove how it was trying to reform his Tory civil service in the Department of Education.

I work on the basis that so long as everyone agrees that the civil service is partisan against their team, they're probably reasonably impartial.

Remember it's the civil services job to stop the elected idiots ruining the country.

I posted what the filth monster said last night...he said he would have done something like this when in government, but he wouldn't have been such an amateur about it. He would have leaked it to the French press and pointed some helpful British journo towards it. He said in his opinion (for what it is worth), it was an amateur job, thus not likely the Tories and that the first quote in the original piece about this leak was Lib Dem response.

Thanks I missed this.
"the first quote in the original piece about this leak was Lib Dem response."

Why would the DT ask the LDs first? Unless it was a missdirect.

Roger said:

Surely it matters not a jot to Cameron whether a Scottish seat is won by Slab or the SNP. Both have the effect of preventing him becoming PM

If Lab+SNP is a majority then Milliband will be PM. But if its Lab+SNP+LD needed then the SNP seats will be a massive deal, Lab+SNP+LD is simply implausible.

Hypothetically 300 Con, 260 Lab, 40 SNP, 30 LD will surely mean the coalition (330) continuing. A "coalition of the losers" would surely be totally impractical. Whereas if it was 300 Con, 300 Lab, 30 LD then the LD's would be kingmakers and Milliband could win.

Indigo said:

scotslass said:

The only problem is there are no "senior British civil servnats" in the Scotland Office just junior ones.

The Permanent Secretary might be quite surprised to hear that.

Who's that then?

id be surprised if theres not more to come tomorrow - would look bad if the Telegraph suddenly dropped the story after one day

Indigo 1:13PM

May the Gods preserve my patience. The SCOTLAND OFFICE is an arm of UK Government. It has no Permanent Secretary and a few dozen offcials . The Head of It is a comparatively junior civil servant. The sort of grade which would make a PPS in a real Dept of State- lower end senior civils service. This is the outfit, run by Lib Dem Carmichael, that the fingers are now pointing to.

The Scottish GOVERNMENT had a Permanent Secretary and 6,000 civil servants or several hundred thousand if you include Health Service etc etc. There offcial record of the meeting in common with the French record doesn't make the claim. They of course had the advantage of being at the meeting!

Once you get a starter for tem of Scottish Government then come back to comment.

Luckyguy1983 said:

malcolmg said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

SMukesh said:

Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?

Precisely. It probably was said. The Telegraph should have notified Sturgeon and asked for her account. It won't mark a return to former glories for SLAB. The SNP should probably just be brushing it off and not making such a fuss -they are drawing more attention to it than it warrants.

Given the way she has publicly denied saying it , I cannot see any chance she actually did , that would be political suicide and she is not that stupid.

Not really. If both parties deny it then it 'never' happened. It's expedient to deny it. I wasn't there, I don't know, but I think in these situations these type of things get said. When I did part time events work when studying I was present at 'high powered' meetings where board members of huge finance companies spoke that way -for instance telling a high-powered Chinese delegation that the euro was soon to collapse and having a good chuckle about it. Of course it didn't collapse, but these situations of important people talking to important people are quite intoxicating for the participants and discretion goes out of the window - especially as you need to demonstrate trust. I don't even think it's a bad thing to say.

hmmmm, but as politicians know their every word is recorded they are much more careful in general and especially knowing how devious UK officials and politicians are. I just don't believe it and if it had been said she would have been much more careful on how she worded her responses on TV.

scotslass said:

Indigo 1:13PM

May the Gods preserve my patience. The SCOTLAND OFFICE is an arm of UK Government. It has no Permanent Secretary and a few dozen offcials . The Head of It is a comparatively junior civil servant. The sort of grade which would make a PPS in a real Dept of State- lower end senior civils service. This is the outfit, run by Lib Dem Carmichael, that the fingers are now pointing to.

The Scottish GOVERNMENT had a Permanent Secretary and 6,000 civil servants or several hundred thousand if you include Health Service etc etc. There offcial record of the meeting in common with the French record doesn't make the claim. They of course had the advantage of being at the meeting!

Once you get a starter for tem of Scottish Government then come back to comment.

LOL, they prefer to believe the fantasy

Galloway's Twitter feed is a bit OTT at the moment, but worth a look.

malcolmg said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

scotslass said:

surbiton

Nicola is addessing an anti -Trident rally just now. I until recently would not have been considered an normal SNP voter. Now I am a very, very determined one. This sort of thing makes me all the more so.

However, thanks to the the BBC who are emerging better from this than SKY the Tory's "senior British civil servant" is proably not FCO. In that case fingers will start pointing towards the UK run Scotland Office (not Scottish Office)! If it is confirmed then further very very bad news for the Libs. The only problem is there are no "senior British civil servnats" in the Scotland Office just junior ones.

The plot thickens and not going well for the dirty tricks dept of the unionists parties.

Just like their dirty tricks were 'exposed' by the budding Nancy Drews of the Yes campaign? Doesn't do any good. It just draws further attention to the initial story. Sadly, politics is about perception not fact. The initial 'perception' behind this story is that the SNP are Tartan Tories and traitors to the socialist cause. The counter 'perception' is that the Unionist parties are terrified of the SNP advance and desperately scraping the barrel. This story therefore needs to be treated with derision and then ignored, not subjected to an extended post mortem.

Only the dwindling SLAB MP's etc come out with that guff, everybody knows the reality. No sane person thinks the SNP are Tartan Tories , it is pathetic.

Precisely. And that's the line the SNP should be taking on this. Not calling for enquiries and keeping the story alive.

Philip_Thompson said:

scotslass said:

Indigo 1:13PM

May the Gods preserve my patience. The SCOTLAND OFFICE is an arm of UK Government. It has no Permanent Secretary and a few dozen offcials . The Head of It is a comparatively junior civil servant. The sort of grade which would make a PPS in a real Dept of State- lower end senior civils service. This is the outfit, run by Lib Dem Carmichael, that the fingers are now pointing to.

The Scottish GOVERNMENT had a Permanent Secretary and 6,000 civil servants or several hundred thousand if you include Health Service etc etc. There offcial record of the meeting in common with the French record doesn't make the claim. They of course had the advantage of being at the meeting!

Once you get a starter for tem of Scottish Government then come back to comment.

Quite frankly why the Scotland Office hasn't been abolished is beyond me. We don't to my knowledge have a North West Office or a Yorkshire Office or an England Office and devolved issues are the responsibility of the Scottish government NOT the Scotland Office. So just what point does it serve now?

Seems a prime target for austerity cuts. Abolish the entire thing and either devolve responsibilities to the Scottish government or transfer to a sensible department in the UK government

Lets them pretend they still have an empire and gives them an empty title when they want to park some dummy.

My last word on the day of the French - for now at least.

As long as the SNP get the best of it and it now looks like they will, since everyone is peeling off the story - even Sky's James Mathews now! - then there is only one outcome and that is positive.

1) SNP front and centre of campaign - just as two weeks ago in the attacks on Salmond!
2) Unionist dirty tricks exposed.
3) All coming attacks will be judged in the lee of this piece of nonsence.

Conclusion - the more the SNP are attacked the stronger they will get.

New Thread

Telegraph getting absolutely slaughtered in the comments

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11515276/Revealed-Full-text-of-Nicola-Sturgeon-memo.html#disqus_thread


Here's a flavour......


Let's get this right.

Nicola Sturgeon denies it.

Fiona Hyslop denies it.

The French Ambassador denies it.

The French Consul General denies it.

The person who wrote the memo doesn't believe it.

Great story, chief.

scotslass said:

My last word on the day of the French - for now at least.

As long as the SNP get the best of it and it now looks like they will, since everyone is peeling off the story - even Sky's James Mathews now! - then there is only one outcome and that is positive.

1) SNP front and centre of campaign - just as two weeks ago in the attacks on Salmond!
2) Unionist dirty tricks exposed.
3) All coming attacks will be judged in the lee of this piece of nonsence.

Conclusion - the more the SNP are attacked the stronger they will get.

Do you think Sturgeon's strong performance has made much difference in terms of polling and seats?
For the all the huffing and puffing I am not sure the debate has in England /Wales.

Test.