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  • Pong said:

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:
    Hmmm ... look at he bit where it says the unknown writer doesn't believe his 3rd hand story himself.

    Fascinating document, Carnyx.

    Not the least fascinating aspect is how it came into the hands of the DT, why, and who is up to what?!

    All good fun....but no game-changer.
    I struggle to see a compelling reason for Slab'ers to turn out to vote.

    Murphy needs to find one. Quickly.
    Nor me, Pong.

    If I lived in Scotland, I would vote SNP without a moment's hesitation. I could see no reason for doing otherwise.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

  • CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

    It's what the voters wanted in 2010. We work with what we have....

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

    That's rather a stretch. "chosen" ? How many did they have to pick from ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,043

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    Vote Ed, get Hollande? I can believe it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137
    On Frenchgate, firstly, I suspect most voters on Scotland could easily be offended that there FM's private comments to the ambassador are actually minuted and summarised for the UK government (a little known detail of devolution bill no doubt). So the SNP could play this line very nicely.

    Secondly, it is all potentially another entirely wasted day for Labour. Get back on to what matters in English Con-Lab marginals: economy, housing, health etc.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

    It's what the voters wanted in 2010. We work with what we have....

    And clearly were not up to the task. Not a recommendation for re-election.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,027
    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,137

    Sandpit said:


    If Greece defaults next week then I expect to wake up to a repeat of the 1992 result on May 8th.

    If Greece defaults and Nigel Farrage can't blame it all on the Europe and the Eurozone, the man has no business running a whelk stall, let alone UKIP.
    I believe the IMF wait six-weeks before declaring a formal, technical default. This could be enough to keep the issue out of GE 2015.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Perhaps useful to consider how the French business will play north and south of the border. It may actually help the SNP (I doubt they can get many more votes, but it could help cement the support it has) if it looks like a 'Westminster' paper trying to bully Sturgeon.

    Cameron (I think) hasn't responded yet. Be interesting to see if the French chap replies directly to what Miliband is suggested to have said.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    @Indigo

    "Did I miss anyone ?"

    Yes, The Daily Telegraph.

    But since their post-debate headline announced the smaller Parties as the winners and Labour as the losers, I think we can take it that it's a bit detached from reality at the moment and likely to remain so until May 8th.

    The DT's reputation for balanced and accurate reporting in Scottish affairs can be judged by the recent account by Alan Cochrane of how he won the indyref for no. Here's fellow journo Stephen Daisley's review:

    'The most startling lines in the whole book come after Alistair Darling asks him to spike an unhelpful column. There is nothing untoward in the request -- all parties employ a battalion of press officers whose job it is to keep negative stories out of the papers -- and one can imagine circumstances in which acquiescing could be justified (trading the troublesome article for a better story or a sit-down interview). But Cochrane's reasoning is something very different:

    "Jenny [Hjul, Cochrane's wife and fellow columnist] said I should do what Darling asks. He’s in charge after all. It’s not really good journalism but what the hell does journalism matter? This is much more important."'

    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/303773-stephen-daisley-reviews-the-alan-cochrane-referendum-diaries/

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,043
    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    As I agreed below, it looks as if its got Labours sticky fingers all over it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,027


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Come up against the reality of parliamentary arithmetic and coalition government?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    I really do hope that Cameron is as successful in renegotiation as you say. Thankfully the weak French economy has reduced their leverage. If Germany comes to her senses, an Anglo-German alliance could really make the European Union something that works, but it will take a tough stance by the UK. I felt Cameron came across very credible in the debate (which, incidentally, made me wonder why he was so against having them), so hopefully he can be as no-nonsense and statesmanlike in the EU negotiations.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    dr_spyn said:

    The pound in your pocket will not be devalued.

    https://twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/584188434434158593

    When you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    He s all over it on Twitter. Welcome to the big leagues Nicola.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,291
    RobD said:

    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.

    No, she has Fluffy written all over her!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

    It's what the voters wanted in 2010. We work with what we have....

    And clearly were not up to the task. Not a recommendation for re-election.
    Whatever....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    As I agreed below, it looks as if its got Labours sticky fingers all over it.
    London Labour or SLAB? Given how some - but not all - of the latter seem to have backtracked.

  • RobD said:

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    Vote Ed, get Hollande? I can believe it.
    Go to bed with Ed, wake up with François
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    chestnut said:

    Sturgeon's rebuttal is bound to be "we don't want either, we want Scotland run by Scotland".

    Tories go on child protection issues today

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32180744

    Unfortunately, the Conservatives threw away their credibility on child abuse when they and the Liberal Democrats voted against protecting whistle blowers. I don't know what they were thinking, and still have not heard a single argument to justify their stance. Even Theresa May voted it down after previously backing it.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Bizarrely even the Spectator comments section seems to be very, very dismissive of #Frenchgate.

    I wonder if one day #Frenchgate might go down as the moment the MSM realised they no longer hold any influence over the public.
  • Carnyx said:

    @Indigo

    "Did I miss anyone ?"

    Yes, The Daily Telegraph.

    But since their post-debate headline announced the smaller Parties as the winners and Labour as the losers, I think we can take it that it's a bit detached from reality at the moment and likely to remain so until May 8th.

    The DT's reputation for balanced and accurate reporting in Scottish affairs can be judged by the recent account by Alan Cochrane of how he won the indyref for no. Here's fellow journo Stephen Daisley's review:

    'The most startling lines in the whole book come after Alistair Darling asks him to spike an unhelpful column. There is nothing untoward in the request -- all parties employ a battalion of press officers whose job it is to keep negative stories out of the papers -- and one can imagine circumstances in which acquiescing could be justified (trading the troublesome article for a better story or a sit-down interview). But Cochrane's reasoning is something very different:

    "Jenny [Hjul, Cochrane's wife and fellow columnist] said I should do what Darling asks. He’s in charge after all. It’s not really good journalism but what the hell does journalism matter? This is much more important."'

    http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/analysis/303773-stephen-daisley-reviews-the-alan-cochrane-referendum-diaries/

    Lol!

    All too believable. Fortunately there are still some good journalists around, but fewer at the DT than there once was.
  • JohnO said:

    RobD said:

    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.

    No, she has Fluffy written all over her!
    You called.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:
    Hmmm ... look at he bit where it says the unknown writer doesn't believe his 3rd hand story himself.
    "I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation."

    I wonder when that sentence was first typed?

    Before ~10pm last night: Evens
    After ~10pm last night: Evens
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited April 2015

    On Frenchgate, firstly, I suspect most voters on Scotland could easily be offended that there FM's private comments to the ambassador are actually minuted and summarised for the UK government (a little known detail of devolution bill no doubt). So the SNP could play this line very nicely.

    Secondly, it is all potentially another entirely wasted day for Labour. Get back on to what matters in English Con-Lab marginals: economy, housing, health etc.

    I kind of agree with you - but if the SNP-Labour swing is reduced by even a few percentage points that could mean a handful more seats...

    SLAB have to play the SNP=Tory card. It may be desperate but these are desperate times for SLAB...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,043

    JohnO said:

    RobD said:

    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.

    No, she has Fluffy written all over her!
    You called.
    Titter
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378
    Pong said:

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:
    Hmmm ... look at he bit where it says the unknown writer doesn't believe his 3rd hand story himself.
    "I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation."

    I wonder when that sentence was first typed?

    Before ~10pm last night: Evens
    After ~10pm last night: Evens
    With the DT as the source?! They must have had the thing well before that.

  • RobD said:

    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.

    No Scrapheap is Piers Morgan.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited April 2015
    dr_spyn said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The pound in your pocket will not be devalued.

    https://twitter.com/LouiseMensch/status/584188434434158593

    When you've got them by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.

    Only when their balls are full, then their brains are empty.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:
    Hmmm ... look at he bit where it says the unknown writer doesn't believe his 3rd hand story himself.

    Fascinating document, Carnyx.

    Not the least fascinating aspect is how it came into the hands of the DT, why, and who is up to what?!

    All good fun....but no game-changer.

    Indeed. A few folk on here got very excited last night, but this will not change anything in Scotland.

    That said, it may get a few people to think through the SNP position. It is clear that they get closer to an IndyRef 2 with the Tories in power, so clearly that would be their preferred option. The SNP is a nationalist party that wants an independent Scotland.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    As I agreed below, it looks as if its got Labours sticky fingers all over it.
    London Labour or SLAB? Given how some - but not all - of the latter seem to have backtracked.

    Well SLAB has John McTernan and his record of effectively spinning and smearing is rather poor. It's a typically dumb and misfiring McTernan move.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746


    For some Kippers, the notion of money going to the Central Belt causes them to fulminate more than the idea of it going to Brussels. There are votes in this for the Tories.

    The Tories spoke about english votes for english laws before the last election. They've had five years in government to do something about it.

    They've had five years in government to reform the Barnett formula.

    What have they actually done?
    Been blocked by the LibDems?
    So they're incapable of winning a majority, and incapable of winning over their chosen coalition partners too.

    What a team!

    It's what the voters wanted in 2010. We work with what we have....

    And clearly were not up to the task. Not a recommendation for re-election.
    Whatever....
    You're a great salesman Mark. The election's in the bag!

  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    JEO said:

    chestnut said:

    Sturgeon's rebuttal is bound to be "we don't want either, we want Scotland run by Scotland".

    Tories go on child protection issues today

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32180744

    Unfortunately, the Conservatives threw away their credibility on child abuse when they and the Liberal Democrats voted against protecting whistle blowers. I don't know what they were thinking, and still have not heard a single argument to justify their stance. Even Theresa May voted it down after previously backing it.
    I'm pretty out of the loop with this stuff - I've only been an adult for a decade or so, so I can't quite get my head around what went on in the 70's/80's - but my hunch is that May et al are worried about whistleblowers coming forward and being granted protection, then having the finger pointed at them for their complicity.

    Commence legal clusterf*ck.

    I may be barking up the wrong tree though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    murali_s said:

    On Frenchgate, firstly, I suspect most voters on Scotland could easily be offended that there FM's private comments to the ambassador are actually minuted and summarised for the UK government (a little known detail of devolution bill no doubt). So the SNP could play this line very nicely.

    Secondly, it is all potentially another entirely wasted day for Labour. Get back on to what matters in English Con-Lab marginals: economy, housing, health etc.

    I kind of agree with you - but if the SNP-Labour swing is reduced by even a few percentage points that could mean a handful more seats...

    SLAB have to play the SNP=Tory card. It may be desperate but these are desperate times for SLAB...
    Are there more than a handful of Scots stupid enough to believe SNP=Tory? I mean - really?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    The sentence about the civil servant believing the FM's comments were unbelievable might come back to haunt SNP supporters if it turns out she did say such things. Right now it is being interpreted as suggesting the comments did not happen, but if they did, then it will reveal she has been naive and foolish indeed.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    The bit in brackets is an arse covering add on that is so typical of the civil service.
    Its certainly a genuine memo, who shouldn't the content be genuine?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    murali_s said:

    On Frenchgate, firstly, I suspect most voters on Scotland could easily be offended that there FM's private comments to the ambassador are actually minuted and summarised for the UK government (a little known detail of devolution bill no doubt). So the SNP could play this line very nicely.

    Secondly, it is all potentially another entirely wasted day for Labour. Get back on to what matters in English Con-Lab marginals: economy, housing, health etc.

    I kind of agree with you - but if the SNP-Labour swing is reduced by even a few percentage points that could mean a handful more seats...

    SLAB have to play the SNP=Tory card. It may be desperate but these are desperate times for SLAB...
    Are there more than a handful of Scots stupid enough to believe SNP=Tory? I mean - really?
    They're more likely to believe Labour=Tory now, after the last two years.

    Which would certainly put a different interpretation on how the story is received in Scotland, whether it is true or false. It's no secret that Mr M's ratings are way below Mr C's in Scotland, and if you think their politics are identical for all practical purposes ...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    London establishment up to their old tricks with their lapdog right wing rags. They are so stupid they cannot even make their lies have any credibility whatsoever. Must be rattled in 10 Downing Street , Dave is so confident he is scared of useless Mr Ed
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Mr. Alistair, it's certainly a view worthy of an F-word summary.

    Reminds me of the yacht business.

    "Woman on telephone to man. Nothing controversial said."
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited April 2015
    sky news website now headlining French denial of Sturgeons alleged comments

    http://news.sky.com/story/1458465/diplomat-denies-sturgeon-backed-cameron

    POEWAS
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,043

    RobD said:

    Let's face it. Sturgeon is a PB Tory, and wants the Blues returned to a majority. Now, let's try and guess which poster she is. I'm gonna go with scrapheap.

    No Scrapheap is Piers Morgan.
    That's offensive!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    The bit in brackets is an arse covering add on that is so typical of the civil service.
    Its certainly a genuine memo, who shouldn't the content be genuine?

    How do you know it's a genuine memo?

    And it is at third hand. If I were using it as a historical document I would be very wary of it without independent evidence.

    What also strikes me is that the DT deliberately did not seek clarification from Ms Sturgeon despite asking everyone else, right down to Mr Rennie.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    Carnyx

    "What strikes me about this story, as well as the atual wording of the memo ("appears ... not sure ... something lost") is the way in which certain major SLAB activists latched onto it very quickly to tweet very loudly about it, and then almost as quickly deleted their tweets, as if they realise it's a sharny midden of a story."

    Despite the Telegraph's recent troubles and thus their lack of reliability I cant believe this memo is anything other than authentic. Who benefits is difficult to say but that's quite irrelevant. The significant story is that Nicola has behaved like an Aberdonian fishwife and is clearly not the figure she presented herself to be on Thursday.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    On Frenchgate, firstly, I suspect most voters on Scotland could easily be offended that there FM's private comments to the ambassador are actually minuted and summarised for the UK government (a little known detail of devolution bill no doubt). So the SNP could play this line very nicely.

    Secondly, it is all potentially another entirely wasted day for Labour. Get back on to what matters in English Con-Lab marginals: economy, housing, health etc.

    Given it is third hand guff made up by a Westminster toady I doubt anyone in Scotland is fooled. The London paranoia is laughable.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    Roger said:

    Carnyx

    "What strikes me about this story, as well as the atual wording of the memo ("appears ... not sure ... something lost") is the way in which certain major SLAB activists latched onto it very quickly to tweet very loudly about it, and then almost as quickly deleted their tweets, as if they realise it's a sharny midden of a story."

    Despite the Telegraph's recent troubles and thus their lack of reliability I cant believe this memo is anything other than authentic. Who benefits is difficult to say but that's quite irrelevant. The significant story is that Nicola has behaved like an Aberdonian fishwife and is clearly not the figure she presented herself to be on Thursday.

    all she said was Ed was crap
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Ed may have won on his own terms in that he didn't fall over or poop in his pants on stage.

    Cameron was all about dramatising his message about his competence vs chaos which clearly came across. He was deliberately calm and considered and let the others rabbit on.

    Miliband was was bound to exceed the zero level expectations of him. After all his sole core competence is politics. But just today, he's back to his usual sub Marxist thinking with the latest housing soundbite on forcing the use of housing ISA's.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    Perhaps useful to consider how the French business will play north and south of the border. It may actually help the SNP (I doubt they can get many more votes, but it could help cement the support it has) if it looks like a 'Westminster' paper trying to bully Sturgeon.

    Cameron (I think) hasn't responded yet. Be interesting to see if the French chap replies directly to what Miliband is suggested to have said.

    Cameron and his lackeys are up to their neck in the lies.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    As I agreed below, it looks as if its got Labours sticky fingers all over it.
    London Labour or SLAB? Given how some - but not all - of the latter seem to have backtracked.

    Why wouldn't the source of the story be someone in the FCO? Of all government departments it stands to lose the most in terms of prestige and influence should the UK break up. If Labour were going to do something I am pretty sure they would not have allowed Sturgeon and the SNP so much wriggle room. I bet this is an FCO job and that the document is a genuine one; which does not mean, of course, that it is an accurate one.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    JEO said:

    The sentence about the civil servant believing the FM's comments were unbelievable might come back to haunt SNP supporters if it turns out she did say such things. Right now it is being interpreted as suggesting the comments did not happen, but if they did, then it will reveal she has been naive and foolish indeed.

    There is no comeback. The conversation cannot been proved to have taken place (or not taken place). That's one of the reasons why it is unlikely to have been created by a political party.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    As I agreed below, it looks as if its got Labours sticky fingers all over it.
    London Labour or SLAB? Given how some - but not all - of the latter seem to have backtracked.

    Why wouldn't the source of the story be someone in the FCO? Of all government departments it stands to lose the most in terms of prestige and influence should the UK break up. If Labour were going to do something I am pretty sure they would not have allowed Sturgeon and the SNP so much wriggle room. I bet this is an FCO job and that the document is a genuine one; which does not mean, of course, that it is an accurate one.

    Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Mr. G, why d'you say that, regarding Cameron?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    TGOHF said:

    Sandpit said:

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    While Sky NEws and to a lesser extent the BBC continue to embarrass themselves, New Media gives the best account of #FrenchGate

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewgraemesmith/frenchgate-two-hours-in-the-life-of-a-strange-sc-1gjrg

    Quote : it means there is political leaking coming from the upper echelons of the civil service. Not only are they leaking, they aren’t even doing it well.

    I hadn't realised that the French Ambassador had denied it as well.

    I know he's French, and a diplomat, but it would be unusual for someone in his position to lie openly
    He hasn't denied that she said Ed wasn't up to being PM. A non denial.
    As usual the question is cui bono, to whom is the benefit.

    SNP ? Nothing there except hassle for them

    Tories ? Nope, the very last thing they needs is SNP votes moving back to Labour

    LDs ? Possibly, takes a bit of pressure off their Scottish seats

    The French ? Possibly they might want a Lab government and no referendum, but they wouldn't do it in a way that obviously points the finger at themselves. In anycase they know Cameron is going to get nothing from the EU (because they will make sure of it) and the referendum will be a fiasco.

    Labour ? Hell yes, try and move votes back from SNP to themselves, and tempt red kippers who don't like the idea of a Lab/SNP government back. Plus they have form for this sort of stunt, and it looks at least semi-deniable.

    Did I miss anyone ?
    If I didn't know better I'd think McBride was back.

    Also interesting that the story breaks over the Easter weekend, when the senior CS are as far from their desks as possible... Mad rush around this morning trying to find out what was actually said..?
    He s all over it on Twitter. Welcome to the big leagues Nicola.
    You have to be kidding , not even semi professional , hard to believe how thick they are at plots. A 10 year old could have done it better.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    malcolmg said:

    Perhaps useful to consider how the French business will play north and south of the border. It may actually help the SNP (I doubt they can get many more votes, but it could help cement the support it has) if it looks like a 'Westminster' paper trying to bully Sturgeon.

    Cameron (I think) hasn't responded yet. Be interesting to see if the French chap replies directly to what Miliband is suggested to have said.

    Cameron and his lackeys are up to their neck in the lies.
    How does anything that even slightly helps SLAB be anything to do with the Tories? Right from the morning after the referendum Cameron has had a plan to destroy SLAB and thus far it's worked brilliantly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Carnyx said:

    The bit in brackets is an arse covering add on that is so typical of the civil service.
    Its certainly a genuine memo, who shouldn't the content be genuine?

    How do you know it's a genuine memo?

    And it is at third hand. If I were using it as a historical document I would be very wary of it without independent evidence.

    What also strikes me is that the DT deliberately did not seek clarification from Ms Sturgeon despite asking everyone else, right down to Mr Rennie.

    It suits the Telegraph agenda perfectly. While cheerleading for the Tories the paper has been very consistent in its criticism of the Labour/SNP stuff. Read Cochrane's piece today, for example.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    Pong said:

    Carnyx said:

    TGOHF said:
    Hmmm ... look at he bit where it says the unknown writer doesn't believe his 3rd hand story himself.
    "I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation."

    I wonder when that sentence was first typed?

    Before ~10pm last night: Evens
    After ~10pm last night: Evens
    Considering the whole discussion was in English it makes it even more laughable that Westminster toadies cannot even understand English.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378
    Roger said:

    Carnyx

    "What strikes me about this story, as well as the atual wording of the memo ("appears ... not sure ... something lost") is the way in which certain major SLAB activists latched onto it very quickly to tweet very loudly about it, and then almost as quickly deleted their tweets, as if they realise it's a sharny midden of a story."

    Despite the Telegraph's recent troubles and thus their lack of reliability I cant believe this memo is anything other than authentic. Who benefits is difficult to say but that's quite irrelevant. The significant story is that Nicola has behaved like an Aberdonian fishwife and is clearly not the figure she presented herself to be on Thursday.

    I'm not sure what the relevance of an 'Aberdonian fishwife' is, or what is so dreadful about them, being Doric, or fisherfolk, or female, but for your sake I wouldn't want you to have to explain that to the local queans on Union Street.

  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited April 2015
    David Herdson thanks for an interesting article which I disagree with.
    This is all about Labour trying to fight on two fronts and choosing England rather than Scotland. EdM had a choice, either tackle the SNP surge head on and save more of SLAB or go for English votes. EdM chose not to save SLAB and let Nicola have free shots at keeping the momentum up to reduce SLAB down to a minority party. There are about 250 jobs for SLAB MPs and activists funded by the HoC. Losing 80%+ of them will be a massive reduction in the resources of SLAB. A catastrophe that will last a generation. In the next debate he will have to take Nicola head on. He will also have the others after his voters.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    edited April 2015
    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    JEO said:

    The sentence about the civil servant believing the FM's comments were unbelievable might come back to haunt SNP supporters if it turns out she did say such things. Right now it is being interpreted as suggesting the comments did not happen, but if they did, then it will reveal she has been naive and foolish indeed.

    Considering both her and the French Diplomat have categorically said it was a lie , I doubt much will be coming back from anywhere.
  • MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.
    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.
    The Nats have been saying that about the BBC for many years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485
    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    I've heard political journalists on the BBC say that before. It's fairly ridiculous.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    malcolmg said:

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    London establishment up to their old tricks with their lapdog right wing rags. They are so stupid they cannot even make their lies have any credibility whatsoever. Must be rattled in 10 Downing Street , Dave is so confident he is scared of useless Mr Ed
    Wut ? How does driving SNP votes back to Labour help the Tories, its the very last thing they want.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.

    And, funnily enough, those on the left say the BBC favours the Tories. It was ever thus.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,378

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    Point taken. Trident wouldn't help, either, now you mention the issue, as would the inevitable argument about whether rUK was really the same old UK or just England'n'Wales (1706 model) with what was left of Ireland, Gib, etc. - which could lose the permanent seat on the Security Council.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    Mr. G, why d'you say that, regarding Cameron?

    Desperate to hang on
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Carnyx said:

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    Point taken. Trident wouldn't help, either, now you mention the issue, as would the inevitable argument about whether rUK was really the same old UK or just England'n'Wales (1706 model) with what was left of Ireland, Gib, etc. - which could lose the permanent seat on the Security Council.

    Spot on. Trident, the Security Council, EU vote share and plenty of other things on top where for historical and population reasons the UK is afforded a special status. UK diplomats have a huge amount to lose with a break-up.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Mr. G, yes [all incumbents are], but that has nothing to do with this French business.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.

    And, funnily enough, those on the left say the BBC favours the Tories. It was ever thus.

    You keep on saying that, and it would be an easy to sort this out. The BBC say they ensure that balance is achieved throughout their programming. To say that with any accuracy, they must measure it.

    They should release regular reports into impartiality that proves their claim.

    But I be they don't measure it ...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366

    What I can believe is the Civil Service finding it incredible that someone would speak their mind.

    Well done, Nicola (and I'm not Scottish).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.

    And, funnily enough, those on the left say the BBC favours the Tories. It was ever thus.

    You keep on saying that, and it would be an easy to sort this out. The BBC say they ensure that balance is achieved throughout their programming. To say that with any accuracy, they must measure it.

    They should release regular reports into impartiality that proves their claim.

    But I be they don't measure it ...

    Yes, they do.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/our_work/editorial_standards/impartiality/breadth_opinion.html

    But all sides attack the reports for being biased.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,859
    Carnyx said:

    Roger said:

    Carnyx

    "What strikes me about this story, as well as the atual wording of the memo ("appears ... not sure ... something lost") is the way in which certain major SLAB activists latched onto it very quickly to tweet very loudly about it, and then almost as quickly deleted their tweets, as if they realise it's a sharny midden of a story."

    Despite the Telegraph's recent troubles and thus their lack of reliability I cant believe this memo is anything other than authentic. Who benefits is difficult to say but that's quite irrelevant. The significant story is that Nicola has behaved like an Aberdonian fishwife and is clearly not the figure she presented herself to be on Thursday.

    I'm not sure what the relevance of an 'Aberdonian fishwife' is, or what is so dreadful about them, being Doric, or fisherfolk, or female, but for your sake I wouldn't want you to have to explain that to the local queans on Union Street.

    Roger's posts often contain unsubtle references to social class - reeks of insecurity bless him.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited April 2015
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32180744

    Within a week of this coming in, there won't be a single secondary school child who hasn't downloaded tor.

    Still, blocking parents from finding out that their kids use porn kinda solves the problem I guess.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500

    David Herdson thanks for an interesting article which I disagree with.
    This is all about Labour trying to fight on two fronts and choosing England rather than Scotland. EdM had a choice, either tackle the SNP surge head on and save more of SLAB or go for English votes. EdM chose not to save SLAB and let Nicola have free shots at keeping the momentum up to reduce SLAB down to a minority party. There are about 250 jobs for SLAB MPs and activists funded by the HoC. Losing 80%+ of them will be a massive reduction in the resources of SLAB. A catastrophe that will last a generation. In the next debate he will have to take Nicola head on. He will also have the others after his voters.

    I think SLAB was unsaveable and so Ed leaves them to their fate and concentrates what he has on getting as much as possible out of English voters.
    Nice that he put Murphy in charge of the defense
    If Murphy holds his seat , what is the betting he will not be regional office manager come 2016, he will not go down with the ship , he will want to keep his snout in the trough.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    The loss of the UN Security Council seat is by far the biggest concern for the FCO and the Americans.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:



    Swap Labour and tories around in that sentence and you get a good indication of why an increasing number of people hate them both.
    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    antifrank said:

    I think Mr Herdson neglects the polling on the views of England on an SNP-propped up government...

    What does the polling say specifically that David Herdson is missing? Is there some polling the validates some argument like, "Don't vote Labour, because they'll have to rely on the SNP if not enough people vote for them"?
    Yes, David is making the point that Ashcroft found in polls - potential Labour supporters don't see that not voting Labour is going to reduce the risk, if it's a risk.

    The Sturgeon story with its heated denials is going to be obscure to most people, and I doubt if it will have much effect in England, but it feeds the sense of unease that Labour in Scotland is trying to encourage about

    It's not aimed at potential Labour voters. It's aimed at potential UKIP voters. And so far it's been far more effective than I expected.
    Don't understand that at all, and what on earth is your metric for effectiveness on potential kippers?
    There is a cohort of voters who aren't warm on the current Conservative leadership who have been thinking about voting for UKIP. This group responds particularly virulently to the idea of Scotland being given more money. The idea of a Labour/SNP alliance fills them with loathing.

    Anecdotally I have had several such voters raise this spontaneously with me. And in the polls UKIP recently have been drifting down a bit while the Conservatives have been climbing a bit. Correlation does not equal causation, I accept.
    You're correct. Among my friends and acquaintances are plenty who dislike Cameron, would happily vote UKIP in secondary elections, but will vote Conservative to keep out Labour/SNP.
    Yep! Agree with the anecdotal data that while Cameron is maybe not brilliant, the alternative is a throwback to the 1970's and could well end up with us heading to the IMF again. Given that choice, a lot of Blue Kippers in the marginals may well, through gritted teeth, vote blue on the day.

    If Greece defaults next week then I expect to wake up to a repeat of the 1992 result on May 8th.
    I wouldn't regard my friends and acquaintances as representative of the public as a whole. But, I think they're representative of Con-UKIP floating voters.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.
    Max , do you think anyone in Scotland believes the BBC is fair , it is hated for its biased Labour positions. It is hand in glove with Labour in Scotland
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,485

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.

    And, funnily enough, those on the left say the BBC favours the Tories. It was ever thus.

    You keep on saying that, and it would be an easy to sort this out. The BBC say they ensure that balance is achieved throughout their programming. To say that with any accuracy, they must measure it.

    They should release regular reports into impartiality that proves their claim.

    But I be they don't measure it ...

    Yes, they do.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/our_work/editorial_standards/impartiality/breadth_opinion.html

    But all sides attack the reports for being biased.

    Urrrm, yes, I've seen that before.

    Note it does not cover politics:
    The review examined content on BBC national TV and radio, online content and looked at three subjects in particular as part of its review of breadth of opinion: content about religion and ethics, the UK's relationship to the EU and immigration.
    Try again.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Carnyx said:

    The bit in brackets is an arse covering add on that is so typical of the civil service.
    Its certainly a genuine memo, who shouldn't the content be genuine?

    How do you know it's a genuine memo?

    And it is at third hand. If I were using it as a historical document I would be very wary of it without independent evidence.

    What also strikes me is that the DT deliberately did not seek clarification from Ms Sturgeon despite asking everyone else, right down to Mr Rennie.

    Quite

    What happened to the " tomorrow we will print a story about this do you wish to comment?"
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,387
    edited April 2015
    JackW said:

    BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS **** BREAKING WIND NEWS ****

    The breaking news is that WIND is reporting to the JNN the contents of the latest ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election and "JackW Dozen" Projections. (Changes From 31st March Projection) :

    Con 313 (-3) .. Lab 244 (+2) .. LibDem 30 (NC) .. SNP 36 (NC) .. PC 2 .. NI 18 .. UKIP 4 (+1) .. Respect 1 .. Green 1 .. Ind 0 .. Speaker 1

    Conservatives 13 seats short of a majority
    ......................................................................................

    "JackW Dozen" - 13 seats that will shape the General Election result :

    Bury North - Con Hold
    Pudsey - Likely Con Hold
    Broxtowe - TCTC from Likely Con Hold
    Warwickshire North - Likely Con Hold
    Cambridge - LibDem Hold
    Ipswich - Con Hold
    Watford - TCTC
    Croydon Central - Con Hold
    Enfield North - TCTC
    Cornwall North - TCTC
    Great Yarmouth - Con Hold
    Vale of Glamorgan - Con Hold
    Ochil and South Perthshire - SNP Gain

    Changes From 31 Mar - Broxtowe moves from Likely Con Hold to TCTC

    TCTC - Too Close To Call - Less than 500 votes
    Likely Hold/Gain - 500 - 2500 votes
    Gain/Hold - Over 2500
    .......................................................................................

    ARSE is sponsored by Auchentennach Fine Pies (Est 1745)

    WIND - Whimsical Independent News Division
    JNN - Jacobite News Network
    ARSE - Anonymous Random Selection of Electors
    APLOMB - Auchentennach Pies Leading Outsales Mainland Britain

    Con's slipping back in Jack's ARSE! :open_mouth:

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Fishwife: A coarse-mannered woman who is prone to shouting:
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Dair said:

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    The loss of the UN Security Council seat is by far the biggest concern for the FCO and the Americans.

    Yep, if the UK no longer exist it's hard to see how it could justify a place on the Security Council. The issue there though is, as you say, the Americans; but the French would be too. There seems very little reason why they should keep a seat if the rUK does not.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    MrG,

    "Desperate to hang on."

    I never had that impression. I've always thought of Cameron as being Cuthbert Rumbold in 'Are you being served'.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    Indigo said:

    malcolmg said:

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    London establishment up to their old tricks with their lapdog right wing rags. They are so stupid they cannot even make their lies have any credibility whatsoever. Must be rattled in 10 Downing Street , Dave is so confident he is scared of useless Mr Ed
    Wut ? How does driving SNP votes back to Labour help the Tories, its the very last thing they want.
    It reinforces the Ed is crap and given how pathetic it is , it will not move anyone back to Labour.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    The loss of the UN Security Council seat is by far the biggest concern for the FCO and the Americans.
    I guess they'll just have to veto any proposal to take their seat away then.
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Afternoon all and this nonsense over Sturgeon and alleged disclosure to the French Ambassador that she would prefer Cameron in No 10 will be seen by most of the few Scots who pay any attention to the story as being nothing more than an attempted smear by SLAB.

    As soon as the Titanic hit the iceberg, there was only ever going to be one winner. So it appears in Scotland. SLAB is the Titanic and the SNP is the iceberg. It is just a matter of how many of SLAB's 41 seats it can cling on to.

    Already definite gonners appear to include Dundee West, Falkirk, Glasgow East and Ochil. I certainly wouldn't bet £5 on Murphy hanging on. Of the leading SLAB figures, I would say Douglas Alexander has the best chance of clinging on by his fingernails possibly even quite comfortably.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,981
    Tariq Ali in the opening to his book quotes a Chinese philosopher who says "When someone points to the moon only a fool looks at the finger"

    Everyone seems interested in who leaked the memo and whether it might be accurate.

    Who cares?

    Nicola has shown herself to be at best second rate. She doesn't only say Miliband isn't up to it but also implies that Salmond isn't to be trusted. And she said all this to the French consul.

    The only conclusion that can be drawn is that she's out of her depth and the principled politician so many of us admired on Thursday was a chimera and possibly not even up to the limited task of being Scottish first minister

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    edited April 2015

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    BBC journalist on news 24 said that it didn't really matter if the story was true or not because it was so interesting.

    flabbergasted.

    BBC reporting in favour of Labour? Why are you surprised. Maybe the Nats will see what those of us on the centre right have been saying for years. The BBC is the broadcast wing of the Labour party.

    And, funnily enough, those on the left say the BBC favours the Tories. It was ever thus.

    You keep on saying that, and it would be an easy to sort this out. The BBC say they ensure that balance is achieved throughout their programming. To say that with any accuracy, they must measure it.

    They should release regular reports into impartiality that proves their claim.

    But I be they don't measure it ...

    Yes, they do.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/our_work/editorial_standards/impartiality/breadth_opinion.html

    But all sides attack the reports for being biased.

    Urrrm, yes, I've seen that before.

    Note it does not cover politics:
    The review examined content on BBC national TV and radio, online content and looked at three subjects in particular as part of its review of breadth of opinion: content about religion and ethics, the UK's relationship to the EU and immigration.
    Try again.



    I am interested in the notion that the EU and immigration have nothing to do with politics.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    So the latest totally unsourced rumour so must be completely true is that it was a Scottish office civil servant who leaked the memo. Unsurprising if true
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    malcolmg said:

    Indigo said:

    malcolmg said:

    CD13 said:

    Dair,

    I feel sorry for Nicola now. Clearly someone or some party is out to get her and I'm fed up with honest comments being used as dirt. She's entitled to her opinion.

    Perfidious Frogs.

    I think it is les grenouilles.

    I don't think they've been happy with Dave and George repeatedly pointing out that God's own county of Yorkshire has created more jobs in 2014 than the whole of France.

    Plus with the 200th anniversary of Waterloo coming up they are afraid of what another Eton educated Tory Prime Minister will do to them again in Dave's renegotiation strategy. They hate a Les Rosbif Tory PM.

    So a vote for Labour in the general election is a vote for France.
    London establishment up to their old tricks with their lapdog right wing rags. They are so stupid they cannot even make their lies have any credibility whatsoever. Must be rattled in 10 Downing Street , Dave is so confident he is scared of useless Mr Ed
    Wut ? How does driving SNP votes back to Labour help the Tories, its the very last thing they want.
    It reinforces the Ed is crap and given how pathetic it is , it will not move anyone back to Labour.
    McBride, got to be.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    CD13 said:

    MrG,

    "Desperate to hang on."

    I never had that impression. I've always thought of Cameron as being Cuthbert Rumbold in 'Are you being served'.

    Is Ed John Inman or Mrs Slocombe
  • malcolmg said:

    David Herdson thanks for an interesting article which I disagree with.
    This is all about Labour trying to fight on two fronts and choosing England rather than Scotland. EdM had a choice, either tackle the SNP surge head on and save more of SLAB or go for English votes. EdM chose not to save SLAB and let Nicola have free shots at keeping the momentum up to reduce SLAB down to a minority party. There are about 250 jobs for SLAB MPs and activists funded by the HoC. Losing 80%+ of them will be a massive reduction in the resources of SLAB. A catastrophe that will last a generation. In the next debate he will have to take Nicola head on. He will also have the others after his voters.

    I think SLAB was unsaveable and so Ed leaves them to their fate and concentrates what he has on getting as much as possible out of English voters.
    Nice that he put Murphy in charge of the defense If Murphy holds his seat , what is the betting he will not be regional office manager come 2016, he will not go down with the ship , he will want to keep his snout in the trough.
    It does look like that. By spreading the resources too thinly EdM may end up gaining circa 30 in England and losing 30 in Scotland. A position that would probably cost him his Leadership career and almost wipe out SLAB. It will not be a strong enough position to launch a UK Govt challenge from in the following GE. We will probably not get a clear picture of how much of the central LAB funds will have been spent on Scotland compared to England. I suspect it has not been enough to overcome their lak of volunteers and lack of canvassing records.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,500
    Roger said:

    Tariq Ali in the opening to his book quotes a Chinese philosopher who says "When someone points to the moon only a fool looks at the finger"

    Everyone seems interested in who leaked the memo and whether it might be accurate.

    Who cares?

    Nicola has shown herself to be at best second rate. She doesn't only say Miliband isn't up to it but also implies that Salmond isn't to be trusted. And she said all this to the French consul.

    The only conclusion that can be drawn is that she's out of her depth and the principled politician so many of us admired on Thursday was a chimera and possibly not even up to the limited task of being Scottish first minister

    LOL, you on the champagne early
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    Roger said:

    Tariq Ali in the opening to his book quotes a Chinese philosopher who says "When someone points to the moon only a fool looks at the finger"

    Everyone seems interested in who leaked the memo and whether it might be accurate.

    Who cares?

    Nicola has shown herself to be at best second rate. She doesn't only say Miliband isn't up to it but also implies that Salmond isn't to be trusted. And she said all this to the French consul.

    The only conclusion that can be drawn is that she's out of her depth and the principled politician so many of us admired on Thursday was a chimera and possibly not even up to the limited task of being Scottish first minister

    Miliband isn't up to it and Salmond isn't to be trusted?

    Seems spot on to me, the only conclusion that can be drawn is not yours but the complete opposite.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Charles said:

    Dair said:

    @Carnyx - Interesting. But does it really matter to the FCO? They can't be that bothered about Rockall. Most people overseas think the UK is England anyway.

    Not in the circles the FCO mandarins moves in. A break-up of the UK would severely erode the rUK's influence and standing. As a diplomat you can't lose a great chunk of your country and hope to be taken as seriously as you were previously.

    The loss of the UN Security Council seat is by far the biggest concern for the FCO and the Americans.
    I guess they'll just have to veto any proposal to take their seat away then.
    It doesn't work like that.

    The rUK, presumably calling themselves the United Kingdom of something, would require acceptance as the Continuing State. That depends not on the rUK but on what other countries decide. And it can be blocked in the General Assembly where there is no Veto.

    Given the mood and demand for Security Council reform, it would almost certainly be blocked.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,859
    Roger said:

    Tariq Ali in the opening to his book quotes a Chinese philosopher who says "When someone points to the moon only a fool looks at the finger"

    Everyone seems interested in who leaked the memo and whether it might be accurate.

    Who cares?

    Nicola has shown herself to be at best second rate. She doesn't only say Miliband isn't up to it but also implies that Salmond isn't to be trusted. And she said all this to the French consul.

    The only conclusion that can be drawn is that she's out of her depth and the principled politician so many of us admired on Thursday was a chimera and possibly not even up to the limited task of being Scottish first minister

    So what does that make Cameron then, who shoots his mouth off about Her Majesty 'purring down the line' to a foreign Mayor? As everyone knows, I'm not his biggest fan, but we've survived 5 years of having an indiscreet chump in charge, I don't see how Sturgeon is any different.
This discussion has been closed.