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The story is whether the memo is real , if so why did the civil servant lie on it and why did the journalist ask everyone but the victim about it and have it printed knowing it was fabricated lies.antifrank said:malcolmg said:
Journalists should be sacked when they knowingly print blatant lies.antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:antifrank said:
That in turn points to how the SNP should be handling it. The line should be: "everyone in the room has confirmed the memo was inaccurate. It's always dangerous to take secondhand reports as gospel. We're happy to set the record straight."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.Dair said:antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:
Making things up is a bit silly even for you. They have very clearly stated it is a lie , asked why the patsy journalist did not bother to check his facts etc and asked them to print the truth. You take that and manage to make it into some bizarre pathetic racist " BURN THE INFIDELS" , amazing.antifrank said:
That in turn points to how the SNP should be handling it. The line should be: "everyone in the room has confirmed the memo was inaccurate. It's always dangerous to take secondhand reports as gospel. We're happy to set the record straight."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
We had several similar ones during the referendum that never got followed up.
I do not expect we will see this investigated properly or the instigators brought to book. Lots of dog whistles mind you.0 -
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:0 -
Agreed.antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:0 -
Or didn't come from, or via the FCO (ie from the French, or from Holyrood, or a political parties back room)antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:
Curiouser and curiouser.0 -
Doesn't have to be a Foreign Office memo. Of course if the DT has claimed it is a FO memo then. Well I don't know what happens next but something would happen.antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:
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LOL, and you have the cheek to admonish me for conspiracy, you must b ea government lackey used to making up these kind of things.Indigo said:
Should this memo exist, and be produced then presumably you will be retracting your ranting, since a journalist is completely entitled to take an official minute at face value, if it subsequently turns out to be inaccurate that is hardly the journalists fault. If it says what it is purported to say presumably you will beg his forgiveness for branding him a liar.Carnyx said:antifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Does the memo exist outside the imagination of the DT?antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Have the Civil Service produced the original document? I'm slightly surprised why not - even if it was leaked in the first place.
Whatever happened to journalists verifying their stories , oh I forgot when you know you are printing blatant lies it is not wise to check up on them. Look over there a squirrel.
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Indeed. If this gets back to SLAB's Glasgow dirty tricks office I'm sure Stuart Dickson and Mick Pork will be chortling away.antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:0 -
Presumably a civil service memo would be written on headed notepaper from the Department concerned. Has the DT displayed an actual copy?0
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Superb Sturgeon Shrugs off 'Stablishment Smears.Alistair said:0 -
You are missing a good few Tories thereMaxPB said:
The way it looks to me:Carnyx said:antifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Does the memo exist outside the imagination of the DT?antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Have the Civil Service produced the original document? I'm slightly surprised why not - even if it was leaked in the first place.
SLAB supporting Scottish civil servant misrepresents conversation to London. Lab supporting FCO civil servant seizes on internal memo and leaks it to unionist newspaper. Just my opinion though, obviously no evidence, but I could see it happen that way.0 -
The DT says it was written by a senior British Government Civil Servant.Indigo said:
Or didn't come from, or via the FCO (ie from the French, or from Holyrood, or a political parties back room)antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:
Curiouser and curiouser.
But doesn't say what office.0 -
I think you are perhaps overlooking the fact that the media is broadly anti-SNP and pro-Union so there is nowhere else to debate such things - if it did not happen on the net where would it happen?antifrank said:
Oh don't write bollocks. Unless you are suggesting that the memo is a fabricated document, you have to accept that it is a record of what the British government understood to be Nicola Sturgeon's privately expressed preference. That is a story all in itself. The document is the story.Dair said:
The reporter did not do BASIC fact checking. The memo is merely a piece of paper of dubious provenance till fact checked.antifrank said:
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
All he needed to do was telephone the French Consul. Clearly he is accessible to journalists as a number were able to get a quote from him quite quickly after the story broke. And he says the memo is incorrect.
This is why journalism requires fact checking. Failure to do such a fundamental part of the job would appear to me to be gross incompetence. That's grounds for dismissal.
And of course it is now being denied by all present. No one present has any interest in doing otherwise.
The brittle hysteria that SNP supporters show whenever anything mildly awkward to their cause crops up does them no credit at all. A more confident party would simply waft this story away.
And the toxicity of the Tories in Scotland.
Of course the reaction is strong - those last few percentage points of potnetoal Labour to SNP switchers in the most nonlinear part of the votes vs seats curve.
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It is quite clear to me and I am no lover of the SNP , that the whole " memo " / story is a complete fabrication designed to fool the gullible such as yourself .antifrank said:
Oh don't write bollocks. Unless you are suggesting that the memo is a fabricated document, you have to accept that it is a record of what the British government understood to be Nicola Sturgeon's privately expressed preference. That is a story all in itself. The document is the story.Dair said:
The reporter did not do BASIC fact checking. The memo is merely a piece of paper of dubious provenance till fact checked.antifrank said:
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
All he needed to do was telephone the French Consul. Clearly he is accessible to journalists as a number were able to get a quote from him quite quickly after the story broke. And he says the memo is incorrect.
This is why journalism requires fact checking. Failure to do such a fundamental part of the job would appear to me to be gross incompetence. That's grounds for dismissal.
And of course it is now being denied by all present. No one present has any interest in doing otherwise.
The brittle hysteria that SNP supporters show whenever anything mildly awkward to their cause crops up does them no credit at all. A more confident party would simply waft this story away.
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Indeed - lots of left-wingers seem determined to attack Cameron from the right on this one, saying how he failed to eliminate the deficit.anotherDave said:
Anyone who posts about the national debt having doubled should be made to provide detail of exactly which departments they would have closed and which taxes they would have raised to eliminate the deficit in 1 yearSandpit said:
Given the state of the economy and the size of the deficit in 2010 an impressive result.Monksfield said:Sandpit said:
Swap Labour and tories around in that sentence and you get a good indication of why an increasing number of people hate them both.
The national debt has doubled during this parliament.Sean_F said:
Yep! Agree with the anecdotal data that while Cameron is maybe not brilliant, the alternative is a throwback to the 1970's and could well end up with us heading to the IMF again.antifrank said:
You're correct. Among my friends and acquaintances are plenty who dislike Cameron, would happily vote UKIP in secondary elections, but will vote Conservative to keep out Labour/SNP.Ishmael_X said:
There is a cohort of voters who aren't warm on the current Conservative leadership who have been thinking about voting for UKIP. This group responds particularly virulently to the idea of Scotland being given more money. The idea of a Labour/SNP alliance fills them with loathing.antifrank said:
Don't understand that at all, and what on earth is your metric for effectiveness on potential kippers?NickPalmer said:
It's not aimed at potential Labour voters. It's aimed at potential UKIP voters. And so far it's been far more effective than I expected.edmundintokyo said:CarlottaVance said:I think Mr Herdson neglects the polling on the views of England on an SNP-propped up government...
Anecdotally I have had several such voters raise this spontaneously with me. And in the polls UKIP recently have been drifting down a bit while the Conservatives have been climbing a bit. Correlation does not equal causation, I accept.
The national debt has doubled during this parliament.kingbongo said:
Would they rather he had cut more? (to which the answer is possibly, but only so they could differentiate themselves more from him than they can do now).0 -
Scottish Office ?Alistair said:
The DT says it was written by a senior British Government Civil Servant.Indigo said:
Or didn't come from, or via the FCO (ie from the French, or from Holyrood, or a political parties back room)antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:
Curiouser and curiouser.
But doesn't say what office.0 -
None which is why the Daily Sport had the reputation it had. The Telegraph wants a different reputation. One where it is a reliable Newspaper of Record. The ONLY way to maintain such a reputation is through a journalistic process of meticulous fact checking.Indigo said:
Really ? Can you hear yourself ?Dair said:
No he is NOT entitled to take it at face value.Indigo said:
Should this memo exist, and be produced then presumably you will be retracting your ranting, since a journalist is completely entitled to take an official minute at face value, if it subsequently turns out to be inaccurate that is hardly the journalists fault. If it says what it is purported to say presumably you will beg his forgiveness for branding him a liar.
He is required to FACT CHECK it. In this case, contact the French Consul and ask if it is true. The French Consul would then debunk the document and the story dies. That's the whole point of fact checking and why it is fundamental to journalism.
These are not "optional" parts of the process. The reliance and dedication to fact checking is the last bastion of print journalism in its attempts to stave off the less reliable (as it is not always fact checked) online and citizen journalism destroying the industry.
If the papers cannot even offer that, they cannot offer anything.
He isn't required to do any such thing.
He may even have tried and been told to go away, you don't know.
So long as its not libellous, and much as you would love it to be, it isn't, he can write any old bollocks he wants that his publisher will publish. How much fact checking do you think the Daily Sport does ?0 -
Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.0
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Had my first doorknock of the election from a party today. Had a nice chat with a man from Plaid about the Barnett formula and we both agreed that it should be reformed. Discussed the Leaders debate as well. Didn't agree on much else and not going to vote for them but wished him well in the campaign and told him I hope they get a bit closer to Labour in my constituency, Coming from the Rhondda (Me too, Leanne!) I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.0
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I am aware of this! I do not believe a word of it, they are power hungry nationalists hell bent on implementing policies their own people already voted against.HYUFD said:DennisBets The SNP have made clear they will vote down a Tory government
Anyone not agreeing with SNP in Scotland is being alienated by the popularist expectations to vote SNP or be seen as some sort of Lord of the Manor traitor who should go and live in Downton Abbey.
Normal working class people will tire of this and see a SLAB vote as a route back from an isolationalist dictatorship
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I called Zinoviev letter last night when the story broke.0
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I don't know of any Tories that want Labour to do well in Scotland. I think Dave and the Tory leadership are quite comfortable with the SNP sweeping the board in Scotland because they know it damages Labour and makes Labour's path to 326 virtually impossible, while also allowing them to play up the Ed in Nicola's pocket angle. It would be counter productive for the Tories to leak or fabricate a memo like this. The union has been won, the fight now is over home rule for Scotland and EV4EL in England, it will be a union in name only, but that is good enough for the Tories AIUI.malcolmg said:
You are missing a good few Tories thereMaxPB said:
The way it looks to me:Carnyx said:antifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Does the memo exist outside the imagination of the DT?antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Have the Civil Service produced the original document? I'm slightly surprised why not - even if it was leaked in the first place.
SLAB supporting Scottish civil servant misrepresents conversation to London. Lab supporting FCO civil servant seizes on internal memo and leaks it to unionist newspaper. Just my opinion though, obviously no evidence, but I could see it happen that way.0 -
It is clear it is fabricated by the UK government , both participants have publicly stated that they did not discuss or say what was implied.antifrank said:
Oh don't write bollocks. Unless you are suggesting that the memo is a fabricated document, you have to accept that it is a record of what the British government understood to be Nicola Sturgeon's privately expressed preference. That is a story all in itself. The document is the story.Dair said:
The reporter did not do BASIC fact checking. The memo is merely a piece of paper of dubious provenance till fact checked.antifrank said:
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
All he needed to do was telephone the French Consul. Clearly he is accessible to journalists as a number were able to get a quote from him quite quickly after the story broke. And he says the memo is incorrect.
This is why journalism requires fact checking. Failure to do such a fundamental part of the job would appear to me to be gross incompetence. That's grounds for dismissal.
And of course it is now being denied by all present. No one present has any interest in doing otherwise.
The brittle hysteria that SNP supporters show whenever anything mildly awkward to their cause crops up does them no credit at all. A more confident party would simply waft this story away.
We will see if the Tories investigate the person who wrote the lies and who gave those lies to the journalist.0 -
Was not JackW involved in writing that ?TheScreamingEagles said:I called Zinoviev letter last night when the story broke.
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I think we might be getting closer to the issue now. The Daily Clickbait has recently lost most of its quality journalists in a massive clear out of talent, most of which seems to have moved to Buzzfeed or Breitbart. Most of its bloggers got the boot a few months ago.Dair said:
None which is why the Daily Sport had the reputation it had. The Telegraph wants a different reputation. One where it is a reliable Newspaper of Record. The ONLY way to maintain such a reputation is through a journalistic process of meticulous fact checking.Indigo said:
Really ? Can you hear yourself ?
He isn't required to do any such thing.
He may even have tried and been told to go away, you don't know.
So long as its not libellous, and much as you would love it to be, it isn't, he can write any old bollocks he wants that his publisher will publish. How much fact checking do you think the Daily Sport does ?
http://order-order.com/2015/04/02/ex-telegraph-hacks-pol-pot-twitter-smackdown/0 -
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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Only daft Tories could ever imagine that Sturgeon would be silly enough to discuss this with a French Diplomat whilst being recorded by a UK lackey.fitalass said:@antifrank, you hit the nail on the head.
I too think there is definitely a kernel of truth in it to be honest. The Scots Labour party will try and big this story up, but it will be the almost hysterical denials and over reaction from the SNP supporters camp which will end up fuelling this storm in a teacup for even longer in the media.
I also suspect Sturgeon would have preferred Salmond to quietly leave Holyrood and retire from day to day politics rather than heading off back to Westminster playing the uncontrollable maverick in the SNP pack. And as she no doubt realises, Salmond and his ego were never going to be able to head off back to anonymity on the Westminster backbenchers, any more than he would have done at Holyrood after serving as FM.
At the end of the day, Sturgeon is facing her big election next year at Holyrood, she needs to match or do better than Salmond did in 2011 to call it a personal success as FM. So Sturgeon will prefer a Conservative Government at Westminster as it helped the SNP win that majority back in 2011. But Salmond would definitely prefer a minority Labour Government, hence his threats to write a Labour budget or try to vote down a minority Conservative Government, just so he can to replace it with a minority Labour Government with him acting as a high profile power broker. And that is where tensions might be created between Sturgeon and Salmond as their own political interests now look to be going in very different directions from when they originally worked together at Holyrood.antifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
We are not talking clowns like Dave here we are talking about real clever people.0 -
Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM0 -
This leak does no benefit to the Conservative party. I can't understand why that is so hard to understand. The Tories are doing all they can to talk up the SNP and hope they win as many seats off Labour as possible. You may not like that fact, you may think it is foolish of them but it is unquestionably what they want.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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Because it couldn't possibly be fabricated by a Scottish civil servant in Holyrood that didn't support the SNP ?malcolmg said:
It is clear it is fabricated by the UK government , both participants have publicly stated that they did not discuss or say what was implied.antifrank said:
Oh don't write bollocks. Unless you are suggesting that the memo is a fabricated document, you have to accept that it is a record of what the British government understood to be Nicola Sturgeon's privately expressed preference. That is a story all in itself. The document is the story.Dair said:
The reporter did not do BASIC fact checking. The memo is merely a piece of paper of dubious provenance till fact checked.antifrank said:
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
All he needed to do was telephone the French Consul. Clearly he is accessible to journalists as a number were able to get a quote from him quite quickly after the story broke. And he says the memo is incorrect.
This is why journalism requires fact checking. Failure to do such a fundamental part of the job would appear to me to be gross incompetence. That's grounds for dismissal.
And of course it is now being denied by all present. No one present has any interest in doing otherwise.
The brittle hysteria that SNP supporters show whenever anything mildly awkward to their cause crops up does them no credit at all. A more confident party would simply waft this story away.
We will see if the Tories investigate the person who wrote the lies and who gave those lies to the journalist.0 -
So the DT has to publish image of memo now right? Otherwise the "fake" accusations will grow to a crescendo.0
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It's probably electronic, in MS Word format, and an internal memo won't necessarily even have a Departmental logo on it.JohnO said:Presumably a civil service memo would be written on headed notepaper from the Department concerned. Has the DT displayed an actual copy?
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He is complicit by not checking the veracity of the supposed document. He either knew it was dodgy or he is a crap journalist.Carnyx said:Indigo said:
will beg his forgiveness for branding him a liar.Carnyx said:antifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Does the memo exist outside the imagination of the DT?antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Have the Civil Service produced the original document? I'm slightly surprised why not - even if it was leaked in the first place.
But you are right - the wording was unfortunate and I wasn't specifically intending to suggest that the DT or any particular journalist was lying (for one thing, the document may turn ip as you say, or someone else was doing the fibbing). .0 -
What? Why would a Tory want to help SLAB? Are you clueless?MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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An even bigger reason for the Tories not to investigate (although as MaxPB points out, it fails the cui bono test). It is sounding like it is the Telegraph that needs to stand up the story.MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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The way the story is going it seems to be helping the SNP not SLAB .MaxPB said:
What? Why would a Tory want to help SLAB? Are you clueless?MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
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The memo is an account of a conversation with the French Counsel General. The French Counsel General denies it. The UK official who wrote it didn't even believe it. Only James Mathew of Sky is left giving this nonsence any credence as he suggests not because it is true but because it is a story! .
Therefore in summary this will help the NATS just like the attacks on Salmond of two weeks ago helped the NATS.
It keeps them front and centre of the campaign and everything else that is thrown at them will be part of the establishment dirty tricks narrative0 -
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM0 -
I agree it looks like a planted story, but the Conservatives (1 Scottish MP) are not competing with the SNP in this election. The 'hand' will most likely belong to Labour (41 Scottish MPs), or the LDs (11 Scottish MPs).MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
Both Labour and LD spokesmen were quoted in the original article.0 -
Not if he is making up stories and knowingly using false documents, using lies etc as it would appear. Either the document, his report or both look suspect given that both parties who had the conversation said it was untrue.antifrank said:
Wanting the journalist sacked is absurd.malcolmg said:
You mean your irrational reaction to what you make up about their reaction. Just admit you are talking merde and move on.antifrank said:
Hence my original comment. The danger for the SNP is not this memo but their own wildly OTT reaction to the story.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure that this will actually make much difference now. Last night when it broke it seemed bigger, but this morning it seems like a dud. The full quote is basically nothing and even the civil servant who took down the notes doesn't believe it and it sounds like the Scottish government mandarin misrepresented the conversation to London.antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
0 -
One thing there is no doubt about . This is that such a memo exists ! I have not read or heard that it is a fake.
It maybe that both the French Ambassador and Nicola Sturgeon can deny them [ the French obviously will as they do not want to be seen as involving themselves in the election in another country ].
Remember the memo was written in the Foreign office based on a telephone conversation. The two participants were themselves not involved in the memo - so easy for them to deny. The writer of the memo or even the person who telephoned - neither of whom were present presumably.0 -
But wouldn't all word documents be printed on the departmental template....but little point in speculating: you're probably correct.JohnLilburne said:
It's probably electronic, in MS Word format, and an internal memo won't necessarily even have a Departmental logo on it.JohnO said:Presumably a civil service memo would be written on headed notepaper from the Department concerned. Has the DT displayed an actual copy?
But the identity of the official at the meeting will be known: wonder how he/she's feeling today.0 -
Shapps does not have that access. It would appear to have come via/from the Scottish Office of the UK Govt.MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
This is a story that advantages two parties. Scottish Labour and Scottish Lib Dems. The Scottish Labour have past access to civil servants in London and Edinburgh. The Liberal Democrats run the Scottish Office. It is either SLAB or SLDs.
0 -
release the phone tap...scotslass said:The memo is an account of a conversation with the French Counsel General. The French Counsel General denies it. The UK official who wrote it didn't even believe it. Only James Mathew of Sky is left giving this nonsence any credence as he suggests not because it is true but because it is a story! .
Therefore in summary this will help the NATS just like the attacks on Salmond of two weeks ago helped the NATS.
It keeps them front and centre of the campaign and everything else that is thrown at them will be part of the establishment dirty tricks narrative
0 -
Foreign office say they have no record of the memo.surbiton said:One thing there is no doubt about . This is that such a memo exists ! I have not read or heard that it is a fake.
It maybe that both the French Ambassador and Nicola Sturgeon can deny them [ the French obviously will as they do not want to be seen as involving themselves in the election in another country ].
Remember the memo was written in the Foreign office based on a telephone conversation. The two participants were themselves not involved in the memo - so easy for them to deny. The writer of the memo or even the person who telephoned - neither of whom were present presumably.0 -
We will get a clue when we see how diligently they look into it. BBC claim it is a real memo, so you can be sure it will be fake.Alistair said:
Doesn't have to be a Foreign Office memo. Of course if the DT has claimed it is a FO memo then. Well I don't know what happens next but something would happen.antifrank said:
At this point it does become interesting. If the memo is fictional, then it's a very different matter.Stereotomy said:
0 -
There will be a Departmental template, but easy enough to create yourself.JohnO said:
But wouldn't all word documents be printed on the departmental template....but little point in speculating: you're probably correct.JohnLilburne said:
It's probably electronic, in MS Word format, and an internal memo won't necessarily even have a Departmental logo on it.JohnO said:Presumably a civil service memo would be written on headed notepaper from the Department concerned. Has the DT displayed an actual copy?
But the identity of the official at the meeting will be known: wonder how he/she's feeling today.
0 -
Like this...
Daily Telegraph - Alex Salmond spent £20,000 keeping secret non-existent EU legal advicemalcolmg said:
The story is whether the memo is real , if so why did the civil servant lie on it and why did the journalist ask everyone but the victim about it and have it printed knowing it was fabricated lies.antifrank said:malcolmg said:
Journalists should be sacked when they knowingly print blatant lies.antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:antifrank said:
SNIPMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
A religion, possibly.
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.Dair said:antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:
Making things up is a bit silly even for you. They have very clearly stated it is a lie , asked why the patsy journalist did not bother to check his facts etc and asked them to print the truth. You take that and manage to make it into some bizarre pathetic racist " BURN THE INFIDELS" , amazing.antifrank said:
That in turn points to how the SNP should be handling it. The line should be: "everyone in the room has confirmed the memo was inaccurate. It's always dangerous to take secondhand reports as gospel. We're happy to set the record straight."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
We had several similar ones during the referendum that never got followed up.
I do not expect we will see this investigated properly or the instigators brought to book. Lots of dog whistles mind you.0 -
More question begging. You have no reason to suspect he knew the document was false. You don't even know if the document is false. You are going to have massive amounts of egg on your face if the document turns up, and appears genuine. Its entirely possible that a SLAB sympathisers in Holyrood wrote official minutes that misrepresented the meeting. Its also entirely possible the document is correct in every respect and that embarrassed people are denying it. Some evidence would be nice in place of all this ranting and hyperbole.malcolmg said:
Not if he is making up stories and knowingly using false documents, using lies etc as it would appear. Either the document, his report or both look suspect given that both parties who had the conversation said it was untrue.antifrank said:
Wanting the journalist sacked is absurd.malcolmg said:
You mean your irrational reaction to what you make up about their reaction. Just admit you are talking merde and move on.antifrank said:
Hence my original comment. The danger for the SNP is not this memo but their own wildly OTT reaction to the story.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure that this will actually make much difference now. Last night when it broke it seemed bigger, but this morning it seems like a dud. The full quote is basically nothing and even the civil servant who took down the notes doesn't believe it and it sounds like the Scottish government mandarin misrepresented the conversation to London.antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
0 -
Well that would be an astonishing double bluff by the Tories. The UK establishment seeks to 'damage' the SNP but only reinforces their seige mentality. Not even sure Lynton Crosby would come up with that.MarkSenior said:
The way the story is going it seems to be helping the SNP not SLAB .MaxPB said:
What? Why would a Tory want to help SLAB? Are you clueless?MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
0 -
MaxPB Salmond has made clear he would vote down a Tory government on a vote of confidence, a deal on EVEL and devomax would therefore not get a chance, though given Labour could well win most seats in England the Tories should not get too confident over EVEL anyway0
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A large 50+ SNP block will have to worry any future minority government. A couple of dozen SNP seats would concern a tory minority government far less.MaxPB said:
What? Why would a Tory want to help SLAB? Are you clueless?MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
0 -
Clearly that wasn't the intention of the leak. The intention was to make Dave and Nicola look like BFFs and the SNP look like Tory stooges taking instructions from Westminster. That it looks to have backfired was not the intention of the leaker.MarkSenior said:
The way the story is going it seems to be helping the SNP not SLAB .MaxPB said:
What? Why would a Tory want to help SLAB? Are you clueless?MarkSenior said:
Perhaps because some smell the hand of Grant Shapps in this .JohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
0 -
Shock that politicians might lie? Shock that journalists might make up stories?
Are we back in Kansas, Dorothy?0 -
Don't be stupid Monica, this is about the only time you can tell a politician is telling the truth, when they deny it that strongly in plain words you can be sure it is the truth. If it was not she would have had 15 minutes of weasely words and went round about the houses. The French have already publicly said it was false.MonikerDiCanio said:
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM0 -
Is Nicola now describing it as "Leaked" rather than "Fabricated"?dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM
The conversation between her and the French Ambassador obviously happened - they did meet - the question is exactly what was said and by whom. If the DT stand by their story then someone needs to provide a documented alternative minute of the meeting.0 -
I admire your Scottish sense of fair play, of course if a politician and a French diplomat deny something then it must be untruemalcolmg said:
Not if he is making up stories and knowingly using false documents, using lies etc as it would appear. Either the document, his report or both look suspect given that both parties who had the conversation said it was untrue.antifrank said:
Wanting the journalist sacked is absurd.malcolmg said:
You mean your irrational reaction to what you make up about their reaction. Just admit you are talking merde and move on.antifrank said:
Hence my original comment. The danger for the SNP is not this memo but their own wildly OTT reaction to the story.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure that this will actually make much difference now. Last night when it broke it seemed bigger, but this morning it seems like a dud. The full quote is basically nothing and even the civil servant who took down the notes doesn't believe it and it sounds like the Scottish government mandarin misrepresented the conversation to London.antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
0 -
DennisBets I agree this is the best news Scottish Labour has had for months0
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Scottish Office UK civil servant you mean perhaps. I do agree my statement is a bit dodgy , but in essence it will be a UK Lib Dem/Tory involved even if in Scottish Office.Indigo said:
Because it couldn't possibly be fabricated by a Scottish civil servant in Holyrood that didn't support the SNP ?malcolmg said:
It is clear it is fabricated by the UK government , both participants have publicly stated that they did not discuss or say what was implied.antifrank said:
Oh don't write bollocks. Unless you are suggesting that the memo is a fabricated document, you have to accept that it is a record of what the British government understood to be Nicola Sturgeon's privately expressed preference. That is a story all in itself. The document is the story.Dair said:
The reporter did not do BASIC fact checking. The memo is merely a piece of paper of dubious provenance till fact checked.antifrank said:
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
All he needed to do was telephone the French Consul. Clearly he is accessible to journalists as a number were able to get a quote from him quite quickly after the story broke. And he says the memo is incorrect.
This is why journalism requires fact checking. Failure to do such a fundamental part of the job would appear to me to be gross incompetence. That's grounds for dismissal.
And of course it is now being denied by all present. No one present has any interest in doing otherwise.
The brittle hysteria that SNP supporters show whenever anything mildly awkward to their cause crops up does them no credit at all. A more confident party would simply waft this story away.
We will see if the Tories investigate the person who wrote the lies and who gave those lies to the journalist.0 -
The latest polls show Labour well behind in England, nowhere near most seats.HYUFD said:MaxPB Salmond has made clear he would vote down a Tory government on a vote of confidence, a deal on EVEL and devomax would therefore not get a chance, though given Labour could well win most seats in England the Tories should not get too confident over EVEL anyway
Salmond can say what he likes before the election. If the Tories are the largest party in England and the SNP the largest party in Scotland a deal will be done for Scots home rule and EV4EL. Both parties want to shaft Labour and political reality will trump the mutual hatred.0 -
malcolmg said:
Don't be stupid Monica, this is about the only time you can tell a politician is telling the truth, when they deny it that strongly in plain words you can be sure it is the truth. If it was not she would have had 15 minutes of weasely words and went round about the houses. The French have already publicly said it was false.MonikerDiCanio said:
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM
Reading between the lines of the memo, Nicola was rather tired and emotional after a long day. Perhaps she doesn't fully recall the night's conversations.malcolmg said:
Don't be stupid Monica, this is about the only time you can tell a politician is telling the truth, when they deny it that strongly in plain words you can be sure it is the truth. If it was not she would have had 15 minutes of weasely words and went round about the houses. The French have already publicly said it was false.MonikerDiCanio said:
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM
0 -
Indeed proper Fact Checked Journalism is more expensive, more labour intensive and slower. But it's also the basic claim that the dead tree media make for being more reliable.Indigo said:
I think we might be getting closer to the issue now. The Daily Clickbait has recently lost most of its quality journalists in a massive clear out of talent, most of which seems to have moved to Buzzfeed or Breitbart. Most of its bloggers got the boot a few months ago.Dair said:
None which is why the Daily Sport had the reputation it had. The Telegraph wants a different reputation. One where it is a reliable Newspaper of Record. The ONLY way to maintain such a reputation is through a journalistic process of meticulous fact checking.Indigo said:
Really ? Can you hear yourself ?
He isn't required to do any such thing.
He may even have tried and been told to go away, you don't know.
So long as its not libellous, and much as you would love it to be, it isn't, he can write any old bollocks he wants that his publisher will publish. How much fact checking do you think the Daily Sport does ?
http://order-order.com/2015/04/02/ex-telegraph-hacks-pol-pot-twitter-smackdown/
If this turns out to be the hoax that it currently looks to be, this could do significant long term damage to the Telegraph. They're facing a huge IPSO sanction, potentially crippling litigation and a massive loss of reputaiton, all because they didn't make one phone call.0 -
4 April 2015 at 12:18pm
Sturgeon calls for inquiry into leaked memo about alleged PM comments
SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon has told Sky News she is calling for an enquiry into a leaked memo that alleged she expressed a preference to see David Cameron as prime minister after the general election over Ed Miliband.
Ms Sturgeon has "categorically" denied making the comments during a meeting with a French diplomat in February.
Last updated Sat 4 Apr 2015
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-04-04/sturgeon-calls-for-inquiry-into-leaked-memo-about-alleged-pm-comments/
Go on Nicola keep digging.0 -
FWIW if I was able to bet, I think this frenchgate fiasco is the result of SLABs dirty tricks department.
1. SLAB have much better access to the Telegraph and to the civil servants.
2. McTiernan worked for the Telegraph and works for Jim Murphy.
3. SLAB have most to gain from this.
4. Labour had many politicised civil servants. McBride being one big example of the species.0 -
Why do you think the civil servant "lied" ? The French are in no position to embarrass the FM - the last thing they want is for the story to fester. They are embarrassed as it is that such a confidential discussion leaked out. Nicola will deny it, of course. Just like she said Barroso lied !malcolmg said:
The story is whether the memo is real , if so why did the civil servant lie on it and why did the journalist ask everyone but the victim about it and have it printed knowing it was fabricated lies.antifrank said:malcolmg said:
Journalists should be sacked when they knowingly print blatant lies.antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:antifrank said:
That in turn points to how the SNP should be handling it. The line should be: "everyone in the room has confirmed the memo was inaccurate. It's always dangerous to take secondhand reports as gospel. We're happy to set the record straight."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.Dair said:antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:
Making things up is a bit silly even for you. They have very clearly stated it is a lie , asked why the patsy journalist did not bother to check his facts etc and asked them to print the truth. You take that and manage to make it into some bizarre pathetic racist " BURN THE INFIDELS" , amazing.antifrank said:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
We had several similar ones during the referendum that never got followed up.
I do not expect we will see this investigated properly or the instigators brought to book. Lots of dog whistles mind you.
I have no doubt the memo is genuine and the writer believed what he wrote.0 -
Yes merde lies like that, nothing the Tories will not stoop to.fitalass said:Like this...
Daily Telegraph - Alex Salmond spent £20,000 keeping secret non-existent EU legal advicemalcolmg said:
The story is whether the memo is real , if so why did the civil servant lie on it and why did the journalist ask everyone but the victim about it and have it printed knowing it was fabricated lies.antifrank said:malcolmg said:
Journalists should be sacked when they knowingly print blatant lies.antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:antifrank said:
SNIPMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
A religion, possibly.
Once again, the memo was a story all by itself. I'm sure you both realise this. If it had been a secondhand report in an official French memo that David Cameron sought Scottish independence, you wouldn't be doubting this.Dair said:antifrank said:
One of your MPs has demanded the journalist's resignation for reporting this story. And the SNP is not a race.malcolmg said:
Making things up is a bit silly even for you. They have very clearly stated it is a lie , asked why the patsy journalist did not bother to check his facts etc and asked them to print the truth. You take that and manage to make it into some bizarre pathetic racist " BURN THE INFIDELS" , amazing.antifrank said:
That in turn points to how the SNP should be handling it. The line should be: "everyone in the room has confirmed the memo was inaccurate. It's always dangerous to take secondhand reports as gospel. We're happy to set the record straight."Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Antifrank, you appear to be saying the fact there's a story is a story in itself.
Not: "BURN THE INFIDELS".
A religion, possibly.
The Telegraph had a perfecto good story to print, though they certainly sexed it up beyond what the memo justified.
We had several similar ones during the referendum that never got followed up.
I do not expect we will see this investigated properly or the instigators brought to book. Lots of dog whistles mind you.0 -
I bet she can hold her drink , no wishy washy effete Londoner politician here.MonikerDiCanio said:malcolmg said:
Don't be stupid Monica, this is about the only time you can tell a politician is telling the truth, when they deny it that strongly in plain words you can be sure it is the truth. If it was not she would have had 15 minutes of weasely words and went round about the houses. The French have already publicly said it was false.MonikerDiCanio said:
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM
Reading between the lines of the memo, Nicola was rather tired and emotional after a long day. Perhaps she doesn't fully recall the night's conversations.malcolmg said:
Don't be stupid Monica, this is about the only time you can tell a politician is telling the truth, when they deny it that strongly in plain words you can be sure it is the truth. If it was not she would have had 15 minutes of weasely words and went round about the houses. The French have already publicly said it was false.MonikerDiCanio said:
Nicola has just put her career on the line. If it turns out that she's lying, she's finished.dr_spyn said:Sky News Newsdesk @SkyNewsBreak 3m3 minutes ago
Nicola #Sturgeon calls for inquiry into the leaked memo in which she allegedly told an ambassador she secretly supported David Cameron as PM0 -
Miss Fitalass, Salmond's a dodgy geezer indeed.0
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Yup, that's my gut feeling as well. A Labour supporting Scottish civil servant has misrepresented the conversation and leaked a memo to the Telegraph.TCPoliticalBetting said:FWIW if I was able to bet, I think this frenchgate fiasco is the result of SLABs dirty tricks department.
1. SLAB have much better access to the Telegraph and to the civil servants.
2. McTiernan worked for the Telegraph and works for Jim Murphy.
3. SLAB have most to gain from this.
4. Labour had many politicised civil servants. McBride being one big example of the species.0 -
Is there a differenceJohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
0 -
Surbiton
Try and keep up. The French Counsel General was present and has just categorically denied the story in a long interview with Sky. He was the one who phoned the Foreign Office Official and although he looks like a splendid chap (and there is no way he would lie straight on camera) his accent could have been challanging to some plumby FO type.
So the Ambassador denies it, Sturgeon denies it, it wasn't in the official French or Scottish Government record of the meeting and the guy who made the phone call categorically denies saying it. Even the writer of the memo thought it was fanciful!
None of that is the story. The story is why this malicious or ridiculous piece of political gossip wended its way into the Torygraph - who is responsible for the dirty tricks..0 -
I've found someone with a worse grasp of history than Morris Dancer :-) No wonder you voted UKIP in the Euros hehe
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBvrkNfWMAA1Qzu.jpg0 -
Sky News are deciding to discuss #FranceGate.
And their two panelists?
Peter Oborne and Dan Hodge.
Seriously.0 -
Nothing so far coming out suggests it was a fabrication. The Telegraph appears to have published a story based on a leaked memo. The content of the memo may not be to the liking of one or both participants and indeed maybe a distortion of what transpired but that does not make the memo fake !Dair said:
Indeed proper Fact Checked Journalism is more expensive, more labour intensive and slower. But it's also the basic claim that the dead tree media make for being more reliable.Indigo said:
I think we might be getting closer to the issue now. The Daily Clickbait has recently lost most of its quality journalists in a massive clear out of talent, most of which seems to have moved to Buzzfeed or Breitbart. Most of its bloggers got the boot a few months ago.Dair said:
None which is why the Daily Sport had the reputation it had. The Telegraph wants a different reputation. One where it is a reliable Newspaper of Record. The ONLY way to maintain such a reputation is through a journalistic process of meticulous fact checking.Indigo said:
Really ? Can you hear yourself ?
He isn't required to do any such thing.
He may even have tried and been told to go away, you don't know.
So long as its not libellous, and much as you would love it to be, it isn't, he can write any old bollocks he wants that his publisher will publish. How much fact checking do you think the Daily Sport does ?
http://order-order.com/2015/04/02/ex-telegraph-hacks-pol-pot-twitter-smackdown/
If this turns out to be the hoax that it currently looks to be, this could do significant long term damage to the Telegraph. They're facing a huge IPSO sanction, potentially crippling litigation and a massive loss of reputaiton, all because they didn't make one phone call.0 -
Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.
0 -
I highly doubt it was a minister that leaked it. A Labour supporting civil servant is a much likelier candidate.FrankBooth said:Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.
0 -
In which case, the "caller" who suggested that comes into suspicion. He presumably works in the French Embassy.FrankBooth said:Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.
0 -
You have to be joking. The Tories have been fighting a Labour supporting Civil Service since they got into office. McBride was a civil servant remember. Ask Michael Gove how it was trying to reform his Tory civil service in the Department of Education.malcolmg said:
Is there a differenceJohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
0 -
I don't mind egg on my face, someone has doctored something somewhere and a patsy journalist used it without checking, whole thing is extremely dodgy and for sure some economy with the truth going on.Indigo said:
More question begging. You have no reason to suspect he knew the document was false. You don't even know if the document is false. You are going to have massive amounts of egg on your face if the document turns up, and appears genuine. Its entirely possible that a SLAB sympathisers in Holyrood wrote official minutes that misrepresented the meeting. Its also entirely possible the document is correct in every respect and that embarrassed people are denying it. Some evidence would be nice in place of all this ranting and hyperbole.malcolmg said:
Not if he is making up stories and knowingly using false documents, using lies etc as it would appear. Either the document, his report or both look suspect given that both parties who had the conversation said it was untrue.antifrank said:
Wanting the journalist sacked is absurd.malcolmg said:
You mean your irrational reaction to what you make up about their reaction. Just admit you are talking merde and move on.antifrank said:
Hence my original comment. The danger for the SNP is not this memo but their own wildly OTT reaction to the story.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure that this will actually make much difference now. Last night when it broke it seemed bigger, but this morning it seems like a dud. The full quote is basically nothing and even the civil servant who took down the notes doesn't believe it and it sounds like the Scottish government mandarin misrepresented the conversation to London.antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
Unless you believe both her and the French Ambassador are liars then I hardly think it is hyperbole. Also given it is standard Westminster / Civil service smear tactics that have been used regularly again it seems not to be hyperbole.
If it walks like a duck ,quacks like a duck and looks like a duck then it is a safe assumption to assume that it is a duck.0 -
Nicola, now you are blaming his accent !scotslass said:Surbiton
Try and keep up. The French Counsel General was present and has just categorically denied the story in a long interview with Sky. He was the one who phoned the Foreign Office Official and although he looks like a splendid chap (and there is no way he would lie straight on camera) his accent could have been challanging to some plumby FO type.
So the Ambassador denies it, Sturgeon denies it, it wasn't in the official French or Scottish Government record of the meeting and the guy who made the phone call categorically denies saying it. Even the writer of the memo thought it was fanciful!
None of that is the story. The story is why this malicious or ridiculous piece of political gossip wended its way into the Torygraph - who is responsible for the dirty tricks..0 -
BBC has confirmed such a memo exists.The Telegraph were within their rights to write the story based on such a memo.surbiton said:One thing there is no doubt about . This is that such a memo exists ! I have not read or heard that it is a fake.
It maybe that both the French Ambassador and Nicola Sturgeon can deny them [ the French obviously will as they do not want to be seen as involving themselves in the election in another country ].
Remember the memo was written in the Foreign office based on a telephone conversation. The two participants were themselves not involved in the memo - so easy for them to deny. The writer of the memo or even the person who telephoned - neither of whom were present presumably.0 -
John , for sure if the other participants are Westminster based.JohnLilburne said:
I admire your Scottish sense of fair play, of course if a politician and a French diplomat deny something then it must be untruemalcolmg said:
Not if he is making up stories and knowingly using false documents, using lies etc as it would appear. Either the document, his report or both look suspect given that both parties who had the conversation said it was untrue.antifrank said:
Wanting the journalist sacked is absurd.malcolmg said:
You mean your irrational reaction to what you make up about their reaction. Just admit you are talking merde and move on.antifrank said:
Hence my original comment. The danger for the SNP is not this memo but their own wildly OTT reaction to the story.MaxPB said:
I'm not sure that this will actually make much difference now. Last night when it broke it seemed bigger, but this morning it seems like a dud. The full quote is basically nothing and even the civil servant who took down the notes doesn't believe it and it sounds like the Scottish government mandarin misrepresented the conversation to London.antifrank said:
The memo exists. The reporting in that memo that Nicola Sturgeon preferred David Cameron as Prime Minister exists. That's a big story all by itself.malcolmg said:
Fact it is a lie is a concernantifrank said:The diplomatic leak is a storm in a teacup (judging from the memo, it's probably founded in truth). But the SNP reaction to the story's publication is potentially far more damaging to their cause. Though sexed up, the memo is absolutely of public interest. Awkwardness for the SNP is not a ground to withhold publication.
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Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?0
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There appears to be a chain of minute taking. It appears that someone took minutes in the meeting, someone else read those minutes over the phone to a third party in London, who wrote down the minute that was leaked, and commented there in that he felt it likely that comment hand been made and something must have been lost in translation. Either the minute taker, the guy on the phone, or the London minute take might have seen fit to modify the contents of the minute, or they might be accurate.surbiton said:
In which case, the "caller" who suggested that comes into suspicion. He presumably works in the French Embassy.FrankBooth said:Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.
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I think it is incumbent upon all newspapers to investigate this Frenchgate thoroughly.0
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It's hysterical innit?SMukesh said:Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?
The Nats who are getting over excited about journalists lying, and demanding their resignation, were very quiet when Salmond lied about his legal advice about an Independent Scotland's membership of the EU.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/oct/23/alex-salmond-eu-legal-advice-scotland0 -
I work on the basis that so long as everyone agrees that the civil service is partisan against their team, they're probably reasonably impartial.Indigo said:
You have to be joking. The Tories have been fighting a Labour supporting Civil Service since they got into office. McBride was a civil servant remember. Ask Michael Gove how it was trying to reform his Tory civil service in the Department of Education.malcolmg said:
Is there a differenceJohnLilburne said:
Why would the Tories investigate it? Surely it's down to the Civil Service.malcolmg said:Will be interesting to see if the Tories investigate the incident and we ever learn which government employees were involved in the lies and plotting against the Scottish Government. I will not hold my breath on that one.
Remember it's the civil services job to stop the elected idiots ruining the country.
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French whispers ? Ooh la la !Indigo said:
There appears to be a chain of minute taking. It appears that someone took minutes in the meeting, someone else read those minutes over the phone to a third party in London, who wrote down the minute that was leaked, and commented there in that he felt it likely that comment hand been made and something must have been lost in translation. Either the minute taker, the guy on the phone, or the London minute take might have seen fit to modify the contents of the minute, or they might be accurate.surbiton said:
In which case, the "caller" who suggested that comes into suspicion. He presumably works in the French Embassy.FrankBooth said:Something here doesn't make sense. The civil servant who wrote the memo doubts whether Sturgeon would have made the remark. So who could have leaked it? There is no Lib Dem in the Foreign Office.
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https://twitter.com/Aidan_Kerr1/status/584320011147288576
This is starting to look very, very bad for Alistair Carmichael and the Liberal Democrats.0 -
Regardless of the accuracy of the contents of the memo, it is undeniable that it is to the advantage of the SNP to have a Tory government in London.0
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That is exactly what they would have told a journalists phoning up to fact check his leaked document.Dair said:https://twitter.com/Aidan_Kerr1/status/584320011147288576
This is starting to look very, very bad for Alistair Carmichael and the Liberal Democrats.0 -
Not for the first time has a politician's reputation been damaged for the want of a French letter.0
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Oh, I say !Dair said:https://twitter.com/Aidan_Kerr1/status/584320011147288576
This is starting to look very, very bad for Alistair Carmichael and the Liberal Democrats.
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Precisely. It probably was said. The Telegraph should have notified Sturgeon and asked for her account. It won't mark a return to former glories for SLAB. The SNP should probably just be brushing it off and not making such a fuss -they are drawing more attention to it than it warrants.SMukesh said:Storm in a teacup-And why are the Nats so over the top about everything?
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How would the Scotland Office have access? Perhaps I'm getting confused but the the memo was written in the FCO in London right?Dair said:https://twitter.com/Aidan_Kerr1/status/584320011147288576
This is starting to look very, very bad for Alistair Carmichael and the Liberal Democrats.0 -
Dair Doubt it Telegraph readers hate the SNP and some hate Cameron, all SNP voters hate Cameron. Anyway the Zinoviev letter did not do the Mail much harm0
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Any polls expected tonight or are they also taking an Easter break?0
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The FCO claimed earlier they hadn't seen the document, so by implication it was handled by the Scottish Office.FrankBooth said:
How would the Scotland Office have access? Perhaps I'm getting confused but the the memo was written in the FCO in London right?Dair said:twitter.com/Aidan_Kerr1/status/584320011147288576
This is starting to look very, very bad for Alistair Carmichael and the Liberal Democrats.
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