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Like Baldrick, Andy Burnham has a cunning new plan – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 13,174
edited April 19 in General
Like Baldrick, Andy Burnham has a cunning new plan – politicalbetting.com

Allies of Andy Burnham have identified a fresh path for the Greater Manchester mayor to return to Westminster and potentially run for Labour leader, via elections to the NEC over the summer www.ft.com/content/2310…

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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,434
    First unlike Arsenal soon?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,930
    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,599
    algarkirk said:

    First unlike Arsenal soon?

    Could be as early as Wednesday night.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,880
    edited April 19

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    That poem by Michael Rosen applies, I suspect.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,271
    Get the impression that Burnham is just the latest vehicle for the Blairites / Common Purpose. Acolytes for a political movement whose time has come and gone. Similar strategies to Bannon and his attempt to have a similar pipeline of candidates.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/31/the-last-stand-at-steve-bannons-gladiator-school
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,434
    In the National league yesterday Rochdale scored in minute 90+9 to win, depriving York of the one automatic promotion place to League 2, with the two teams to play each other the final match of the league season on Saturday. One of them goes up; if York win or draw it's them, if Rochdale win, they are promoted.

    The only other promotion place is a cage fight between the next six teams, of which one is the mighty Carlisle United.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448
    But even given he gets to be an MP again, the PLP still need to prefer him as next PM. Just imagine all that effort just to end up a back-bencher.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,872

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    Yes, is the plan to just communicate the same stale policies with better PR, or to actually change direction?

    I do think Starmer should be replaced. He is too Trump like in his narcissm. Not so flamboyantly deranged, but the same sense of no limits to be set on his actions.

    Appointing Mandelson (no vetting needed to know his misdeeds over the years) was not just bad in itself, but also shows a lack of understanding on the limits of power.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    Liz Kendall on Trevor Phillips

    I am angry with Peter Mandelson

    Some attempt to deflect and plainly laughable
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    AnneJGP said:

    But even given he gets to be an MP again, the PLP still need to prefer him as next PM. Just imagine all that effort just to end up a back-bencher.

    They will still probably be an opening for leader straight after the next election anyway. Two possible shots in three years is better than most can ask for.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    If he has no plan for the country, no vision, at least (apparently) he'll be level pegging with all the other would-be PMs.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 17,434

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    The one thing even thoughtful Labour experts in journalism, academia or politics itself can't give you is a reasoned account of the real world differences in how the multitude of Labour identities (Blue, Soft, Hard, Blairite, campaign, Tribune, Fabian and about 15 more) would actually plan to run the country in a successful and fruitful way, starting from where we are, not from either utopia or post nuclear winter.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 25,473

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    Piss off the people of Greater Manchester?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 56,872
    SkyNet gets ever closer:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2026/04/14/zelensky-says-kyiv-seized-a-russian-position-with-drones-and-robots-is-this-a-game-changer-a92497

    No humans in the action. The Russians surrendered to machines made of metal and plastic.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,439
    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 61,689
    Foxy said:

    SkyNet gets ever closer:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2026/04/14/zelensky-says-kyiv-seized-a-russian-position-with-drones-and-robots-is-this-a-game-changer-a92497

    No humans in the action. The Russians surrendered to machines made of metal and plastic.

    Fewer Ukrainians paying the ultimate price to defend their country is undoubtedly a good thing - but yes, the speed of the technological increase shows us what a war of the future is going to look like, and it’s something out of a science fiction novel from not many years ago.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,849
    Burnham is only now about two steps away from a plan involving setting up a new party called Labor that he is the leader of and then just waiting for most of Labour to defect to him. Cunning.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,271

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    The Yozzer Hughes of Labour
    Brilliant.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 66,619
    You have to admire his tenacity.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,925
    If Burnham can get a majority of his supporters on the NEC then the way is open for him to be selected at a by election in a safe Labour held seat or at least be selected for a parliamentary seat for the next general election. He would need the former though to be in contention to replace Starmer.

    If he was selected for a seat the Gorton and Denton polls showed he would have squeezed the Green and LD votes more than a standard Labour candidate too so he would probably hold a seat he stood in
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 17,363

    You have to admire his tenacity.

    Surely salute his indefatigability.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,880
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
    Probably.

    First, Badenoch isn't as good at politics as Kinnock.

    Second, the right seem to be going for 'Starmer lied' rather than 'Starmer was hopelessly incurious '. Which seems a much harder case to make, and I wonder if it's an unconscious attempt to avenge for Boris.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,930

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
    Probably.

    First, Badenoch isn't as good at politics as Kinnock.

    Second, the right seem to be going for 'Starmer lied' rather than 'Starmer was hopelessly incurious '. Which seems a much harder case to make, and I wonder if it's an unconscious attempt to avenge for Boris.
    I think it's just a lack of judgement and nuance. Many people may agree with the sentiment but, as you indicate, it's not easy to prove outright.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 128,599
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
    Yes, Kinnock shat the Bedwellty during the Westland debate
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
    Yes, Kinnock shat the Bedwellty during the Westland debate
    She marked his Card, iff he even had one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,695

    Liz Kendall on Trevor Phillips

    I am angry with Peter Mandelson

    Some attempt to deflect and plainly laughable

    You're OK with him are you, Big_G ?
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,221

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    On this warm and sunny morning, today’s Rawnsley on the current turn of events:

    Starmer will tomorrow make the most personally consequential statement to the Commons of his time as prime minister. If he is to hang on to the job, he will have to formally apologise for misleading MPs and the public about the Mandelson scandal.

    There’s no doubt that the prime minister did mislead. After a deep background dive, the security vetters conclude Mandelson is unfit to occupy the juiciest post in the diplomatic corps, a role with access to extremely sensitive material. The Foreign Office gives him the OK regardless. And no one tells the bloke who is supposed to be running the country! Is this remotely believable? Sir Keir needs it to be so because the crux of his defence is that he misled parliament because he was misled himself.

    Weirdly, it is kind of plausible that the first he heard about it was last week. Those of us who delve into the inner workings of Starmerland often find the centre of it occupied by a bizarrely detached prime minister. Insiders report that he hates it when people bring him problems. “Keir doesn’t like bad news and he doesn’t take to people who bring him bad news,” says one senior Labour figure. “So no one wants to be the bearer of bad news.”

    You don’t need to be an expert reader of the runes to see that this is hugely damaging. It was a terrible mistake to send Mandelson to Washington in the face of prescient warnings not to do it from Jonathan Powell, the national security adviser, who also complained that the process was “weirdly rushed”. It looks even more foolhardy now we know that he was given the thumbs down by the security vetting. “Oh god, it’s shocking,” groans one cabinet member. “It is another sinkhole that has emerged in front of us.”

    The prime minister’s position, which seemed to have stabilised somewhat since it was in high peril back in February, is again precarious. Those who want him out of Number 10 are fired up. Even if this doesn’t do for him, it has entrenched the view of many Labour MPs that Sir Keir can’t possibly lead them into the next general election. Anxieties about his judgment and grip are acute. And his excuse for misleading parliament is that he was kept in the dark. Ignorance is a wretched alibi for someone who is supposed to be in charge, but it is the only defence he's got.

    Thatcher on Westland.

    But will Badenoch fluff her lines as Kinnock did?
    Probably.

    First, Badenoch isn't as good at politics as Kinnock.

    Second, the right seem to be going for 'Starmer lied' rather than 'Starmer was hopelessly incurious '. Which seems a much harder case to make, and I wonder if it's an unconscious attempt to avenge for Boris.
    Its crystal clear Starmer DIDN'T LIE!

    He DIDN'T KNOW!

    She can bleat "liar liar liar" all she likes, there is no Smoking Gun.

    Her personality traits and defects mean she will play straight in to Starmers hands if she goes "lie lie lie" he just needs to anser back "prove it or withdraw the allegation" in fact that s=could get VERY VERY TASTY indeed if she did outside of Parliamentary protection.

    The obvious question is WHY DIDNT HE ASK THE QUESTIONS!

    He can defend with "the process means no PM or No 10 would have been told if they' asked due to protocols" - he may well come prepared with a shed load of example of that from Tory years - God knows the Civil Service nust have shed loads of Red Flags on Boris! but it is an argument harder for him to deny.

    Sadly for the Tories that have a Leader with very limited intellect, massively inflated ego and arrogance and who cannot adapt and probe beyong the scripts she is given.

    They need to let David Davis loose on the subject matter and stick Kemi back in the pavillion asap !
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    Ed Davey talking sense on Trevor Phillips and calls for Starmer to resign because if he remains in office his mps are running the risk of PM Farage

    He thinks Starmer may have misled Parliament
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,695

    Burnham is only now about two steps away from a plan involving setting up a new party called Labor that he is the leader of and then just waiting for most of Labour to defect to him. Cunning.

    Wouldn't he still need to be an MP ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 55,439
    Max Hastings: “ Since January 2024 our world has been wantonly plunged into a maelstrom. Americans, for so long the perceived more-or-less good guys, have become the fount of economic crisis, military menaces and planned disorder such as Russia or Iran would be quite incapable of generating.”

    “Many years ago when I lived in the US, I often heard it wryly said that if the 1787 Constitution was so marvellous, why had no other nation ever copied it? Now we know. It is dependent upon the conduct in power of reasonable people, recognising bounds of decency and discretion. In the absence of these things, there are no effective checks and balances. The rest of us can only stand by and recognise the extraordinary, almost unbearable truth: the US is no longer our friend, and stands on the cusp of becoming our enemy.”
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 58,926

    Apart from being leader, what does he want to do?

    Well, make important speeches and meet other important people in important international gatherings, obviously. Just like the present incumbent.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 29,513
    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    Nigelb said:

    Liz Kendall on Trevor Phillips

    I am angry with Peter Mandelson

    Some attempt to deflect and plainly laughable

    You're OK with him are you, Big_G ?
    Not sure what your point is

    Kendall blaming Mandelson for the PMs problems when it was the PM who appointed the sleaze bag to Ambassasor before vetting says it all
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342
    We have a few days of Starmer and what's left of his team pushing a story that's laughable bullshit. At the end of it? His Best Case Scenario is that he staggers on into May before they eat him. Worst Case? Kobayashi Maru...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,695
    stodge said:

    Liz Kendall on Trevor Phillips

    I am angry with Peter Mandelson

    Some attempt to deflect and plainly laughable

    ..Politics is a rough trade as someone once said and there's a curious double standard where loyalty is concerned - defending your own leader is seen as virtuous but when someone tries to defend a leader you don't like, it's laughable.

    Yes...
    Agreed.
    I be fairly happy to see Starmer sacked, though the messy aftermath, and quite possibly an even poorer replacement, wouldn't do much for our governance for the next couple of years.

    But it's a bit much to trash the reasonable comments from his defenders along with the unreasonable.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 2,221
    The best bet if anyone could find it on Burnham would be to be "Deputy Leader of the Labour Party"

    The route to that is simple. He is nominated to the Lords and become Labour Leader in The Lords.

    He is then appointed as Deputy Leader of The labour Party by Labour Party Members (in the role Lucy Powell now holds) and would have NO House of Commons role but could be given a Cabinet Role in a set department (as Lord David Cameron was as Tory Foreign Secretary.

    It may appease those who follow him with damp lillets and his Manc cronies and possibly help the sort of Poll bounce that many pollsters indicate may happen. He'd also be untfettered of the day to day grind of actually being PM

    That sort of role could only really work with one likely leadership Candidate, his good friend and increasingly close "soul mate" Angela!
    .
    Then the plotting al makes very perfect sense
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,421
    edited April 19
    Tomorrow in the House, Starmer has to thread a whopping great lie through the tiny eye of a Parliament that for its various reasons, wants him gone.

    The Leader of the Opposition would love his scalp, to keep her position secure. The Conservatives would LOVE to be going into the local elections with Labour leaderless, rudderless, catastrophically short of a message to sell. Ditto the LibDems, Reform, the SNP, Plaid - none are going to give him an inch. His argument that he didn't know is implausible at best, damning of his abilities in its own right. But that he lied is the easier conclusion to reach. And they will say so. He has misled the House - and if believes he is in the clear, he has misled himself.

    But the other parties are just a sideshow. The people he needs to worry about sucking air through teeth and chuntering "he has to go" are behind him. They have a perfect view of his back in which to plunge their knives. The last thing those with ambitions for his job - sat alongside him - will want is time for Burnham to be seen as the standard bearer for change. So if Starmer is to fall - better he does so now. The Labour Party are going to get a kicking in less than three weeks anyway. Starmer and his disastrous management style can own that, not the new leader.

    Stoney silence is the best he can hope for. Anybody singing his praises is going to look like the most self-serving buffoon, immediately putting their career at the bottom of the heap for advancement with the new Boss. So let him twist in the breeze.

    Could be quite the spectacle.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,326
    edited April 19
    On the most important decision facing a PM as in the Iran War Starmer got that right. This is the line Kendall and I expect the rest of the cabinet will continue to take .

    So he totally fxcked up on Mandelson but the public need to balance that against what could have happened if Farage or Badenoch were in charge.

    The public aren’t kept awake at night over the Mandelson affair but are really worried about paying the bills and should realize that Farage and Badenoch would have supported action that made that worse . This really is the message that Starmer is likely to go with .

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 72,193
    edited April 19

    We have a few days of Starmer and what's left of his team pushing a story that's laughable bullshit. At the end of it? His Best Case Scenario is that he staggers on into May before they eat him. Worst Case? Kobayashi Maru...

    Indeed

    At least Man Utd surprised on the upside to beat Chelsea away moving 10 points clear of them and with no recognised defence

    Actually maybe Starmer will hope to do the same, but he is not talented like Bruno Fernandes, surely the player of the season
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    Brixian59 said:

    The best bet if anyone could find it on Burnham would be to be "Deputy Leader of the Labour Party"

    The route to that is simple. He is nominated to the Lords and become Labour Leader in The Lords.

    He is then appointed as Deputy Leader of The labour Party by Labour Party Members (in the role Lucy Powell now holds) and would have NO House of Commons role but could be given a Cabinet Role in a set department (as Lord David Cameron was as Tory Foreign Secretary.

    It may appease those who follow him with damp lillets and his Manc cronies and possibly help the sort of Poll bounce that many pollsters indicate may happen. He'd also be untfettered of the day to day grind of actually being PM

    That sort of role could only really work with one likely leadership Candidate, his good friend and increasingly close "soul mate" Angela!
    .
    Then the plotting al makes very perfect sense

    Labour Party Rule Book, Clause VII, Section 1, subsection 2:

    'The leader and deputy leader of the Party shall be elected or re-elected from among Commons members of the PLP in accordance with Procedural use in Chapter 4 Clause II below, at a party conference convened in accordance with Clause VI above.'

    https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/rulebook-2020.pdf#page8 (Or page 4 accreting to the contents page)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    nico67 said:

    On the most important decision facing a PM as in the Iran War Starmer got that right. This is the line Kendall and I expect the rest of the cabinet will continue to take .

    So he totally fxcked up on Mandelson but the public need to balance that against what could have happened if Farage or Badenoch were in charge.

    The public aren’t kept awake at night over the Mandelson affair but are really worried about paying the bills and should realize that Farage and Badenoch would have supported action that made that worse . This really is the message that Starmer is likely to go with .

    That may be true, but it's not the public he needs to worry about, is it? It's Labour Party members. And I suspect most of them *are* pretty unhappy that he brought back the arch-Blairite and gave him a role that has turned into such a train wreck.

    Not that I think he will be forced out, as Labour are so terrible at regicide.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 89,695
    IanB2 said:

    Max Hastings: “ Since January 2024 our world has been wantonly plunged into a maelstrom. Americans, for so long the perceived more-or-less good guys, have become the fount of economic crisis, military menaces and planned disorder such as Russia or Iran would be quite incapable of generating.”

    “Many years ago when I lived in the US, I often heard it wryly said that if the 1787 Constitution was so marvellous, why had no other nation ever copied it? Now we know. It is dependent upon the conduct in power of reasonable people, recognising bounds of decency and discretion. In the absence of these things, there are no effective checks and balances. The rest of us can only stand by and recognise the extraordinary, almost unbearable truth: the US is no longer our friend, and stands on the cusp of becoming our enemy.”

    What has that got to do with the 1787 constitution ?

    Every constitution is dependent on the conduct of reasonable people.
    A MAGA type movement in the UK with a parliamentary majority might be yet more unbound by constitutional limits.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,726
    Brixian59 said:

    Foss said:

    ‘The Mail on Sunday can reveal today that Keir Starmer's team received a briefing from security sources in 2023 about Peter Mandelson that included:

    * The revelation his friendship with Epstein dated back to 2006
    * The pair were being monitored by Russian intelligence, who viewed their relationship as "close"
    * Soviet intelligence began targeting Mandelson as far back as the late 1980's
    * British and EU intelligence officials were so concerned about his business links with Putin ally Oleg Deripaska they advised him to cut off links. Including ending his use of Deripaska's private jet’

    Via Hodge

    https://xcancel.com/DPJHodges/status/2045755577859498375#m

    In 2023.

    2023 seriously??...Starmer forsaw being PM and Trump winning presidency and deciding to make Mandelson Ambasaddor in 2023...

    Can he tip us the winner of the 2026 Flat Classics...

    Typical Hodges BULLCRAP!

    Of course Hodges and his Tory mates know all about Deripaska and the KGB and UK politics....they own Farage and owned Boris!
    Then I’m sure he’ll be happy to stand up in the house and deny everything they’ve written on a yes/no line by line basis.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 5,448

    Burnham is only now about two steps away from a plan involving setting up a new party called Labor that he is the leader of and then just waiting for most of Labour to defect to him. Cunning.

    Oh, he could call the new party 'New Labour' or something like that.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,695
    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    That speaks to something more fundamental than simply the character (or lack of it) of a PrimeMInister.

    The more worrying answer is simply there was no plan because there is no plan. I called it "the death of ideology" a while back - Thatcher had a plan of sorts though it was really the 1983 victory which allowed her to pursue it. Attlee had circumstances quite unlike anything before or since.

    Before that, perhaps Asquith in 1906 - the three radical reforming Governments of the 20th century.

    Now, there is no radical, reforming ideology out there - the centre left has had no economic policy since 2008, the centre right knows austerity (whatever that means) doesn't work and has no ideas. The populists have filled the gap but their plans are fiscally incoherent.

    To her credit, Badenoch has started to see a way forward but unfortunately, in order to win power, she has to get votes and that means uncosted promises so she too will end up having questions to answer about the financial viability of her party's proposals.

    So, successive Prime Ministers are in office but not in power to use a hackneyed old expression. There's a worrying retreat into ethno-nationalism on all sides -the old sense of "looking after our own" (however that is defined). The adversarial nature of modern politics prevents the kind of cross-cutting concensus which might drive forward meaningful reform.

    No one wants to touch pensioner benefits because pensioners vote and in large numbers whereas, it seems, younger people don't. The other side of that is the aspirational minority are also ignored - those who simply want better lives for themselves and their families (yes, they are praised and called "hard working" but that's often not through choice).

    The "solutions" peddled round on sites like this become increasingly nonsensical - some have argued cutting benefits by 50%. No Government is going to do that, ever.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    AnneJGP said:

    Burnham is only now about two steps away from a plan involving setting up a new party called Labor that he is the leader of and then just waiting for most of Labour to defect to him. Cunning.

    Oh, he could call the new party 'New Labour' or something like that.
    Given his past, 'Brown jobs' would work.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 136,925

    Burnham is only now about two steps away from a plan involving setting up a new party called Labor that he is the leader of and then just waiting for most of Labour to defect to him. Cunning.

    Not a good idea to split the vote under FPTP
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    That speaks to something more fundamental than simply the character (or lack of it) of a PrimeMInister.

    The more worrying answer is simply there was no plan because there is no plan. I called it "the death of ideology" a while back - Thatcher had a plan of sorts though it was really the 1983 victory which allowed her to pursue it. Attlee had circumstances quite unlike anything before or since.

    Before that, perhaps Asquith in 1906 - the three radical reforming Governments of the 20th century.

    Now, there is no radical, reforming ideology out there - the centre left has had no economic policy since 2008, the centre right knows austerity (whatever that means) doesn't work and has no ideas. The populists have filled the gap but their plans are fiscally incoherent.

    To her credit, Badenoch has started to see a way forward but unfortunately, in order to win power, she has to get votes and that means uncosted promises so she too will end up having questions to answer about the financial viability of her party's proposals.

    So, successive Prime Ministers are in office but not in power to use a hackneyed old expression. There's a worrying retreat into ethno-nationalism on all sides -the old sense of "looking after our own" (however that is defined). The adversarial nature of modern politics prevents the kind of cross-cutting concensus which might drive forward meaningful reform.

    No one wants to touch pensioner benefits because pensioners vote and in large numbers whereas, it seems, younger people don't. The other side of that is the aspirational minority are also ignored - those who simply want better lives for themselves and their families (yes, they are praised and called "hard working" but that's often not through choice).

    The "solutions" peddled round on sites like this become increasingly nonsensical - some have argued cutting benefits by 50%. No Government is going to do that, ever.
    Asquith was not leader in 1906, but yes, I agree with your general point.

    With Thatcher, (also a reply to @DavidL ) I think her ideas were mostly slogans. She talked, for example, about curbing the unions but at first had little idea of how to go about it. Indeed, if anything they did it to themselves with the disastrous strike at British Steel. She also talked about stemming inflation but her policies on how to do it were fairly unclear. It is true she did eventually come up with some ideas to turn them into some form of reality but they often seemed to be rather a long way from what she talked about.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,451
    FPT @Foxy
    Foxy said:



    I think you are unfair to most wealthy people. There are some very high profile examples of greedy people (especially among techbros) but ‘twas ever thus. A lot of other families quietly make massively generous donations - most often to local causes. One Westminster based family I’ve come across in the past, for example, is the largest single donor to the university of Westminster, Chelsea & Westminster hospital and Westminster Abbey. You might not make the same choices they do (and I probably wouldn’t) but it’s hard to deny their generosity (they donate about 12.5% of their pre-tax income annually)

    Yes, very much the Charles Dickens solution to poverty, with kind hearted Gentlemen helping out the poor, particularly poor Gentlefolk, rather than real proletarians.

    It is better than being an unreformed Scrooge I suppose.
    Frankly @Foxy attitudes like that really fuck me off. I thought better of you.

    Such a sneering attitude to other people’s charitable giving is beneath you. All giving should be encouraged.

    I wouldn’t have chosen those causes myself but for the last 15 years they given £300k per year to fund all the overheads for a social mobility focused charity that I used to be involved in).

    (FWIW did you know that Westminster has one of the highest percentages of kids on free school meals in the country? Scholarships for local kids to the University of Westminster - which is what they fund - offers a fantastic route out of poverty for many who otherwise wouldn’t have the opportunity.)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,243
    Foxy said:

    SkyNet gets ever closer:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2026/04/14/zelensky-says-kyiv-seized-a-russian-position-with-drones-and-robots-is-this-a-game-changer-a92497

    No humans in the action. The Russians surrendered to machines made of metal and plastic.

    Ukraine are forming more drone units with a minimum number of human soldiers.

    If they'd listened to the Biden administration they would have conscripted all their young men and sent them to the front to die instead of developing machines to do the fighting for them.

    Early in the war I was mocked for suggesting that Ukraine might end up chasing Russia out of Ukraine with drones. That possibility comes closer to becoming reality.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 24,243

    You have to admire his tenacity.

    There's a fine line between tenacity and self-delusion and I would put Burnham on the wrong side of it.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,451
    IanB2 said:

    Max Hastings: “ Since January 2024 our world has been wantonly plunged into a maelstrom. Americans, for so long the perceived more-or-less good guys, have become the fount of economic crisis, military menaces and planned disorder such as Russia or Iran would be quite incapable of generating.”

    “Many years ago when I lived in the US, I often heard it wryly said that if the 1787 Constitution was so marvellous, why had no other nation ever copied it? Now we know. It is dependent upon the conduct in power of reasonable people, recognising bounds of decency and discretion. In the absence of these things, there are no effective checks and balances. The rest of us can only stand by and recognise the extraordinary, almost unbearable truth: the US is no longer our friend, and stands on the cusp of becoming our enemy.”

    To be fair to the Americans the second paragraph is exactly the criticism that is levelled at the British constitution as well. All constitutional arrangements have this flaw.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 46,473
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    That speaks to something more fundamental than simply the character (or lack of it) of a PrimeMInister.

    The more worrying answer is simply there was no plan because there is no plan. I called it "the death of ideology" a while back - Thatcher had a plan of sorts though it was really the 1983 victory which allowed her to pursue it. Attlee had circumstances quite unlike anything before or since.

    Before that, perhaps Asquith in 1906 - the three radical reforming Governments of the 20th century.

    Now, there is no radical, reforming ideology out there - the centre left has had no economic policy since 2008, the centre right knows austerity (whatever that means) doesn't work and has no ideas. The populists have filled the gap but their plans are fiscally incoherent.

    To her credit, Badenoch has started to see a way forward but unfortunately, in order to win power, she has to get votes and that means uncosted promises so she too will end up having questions to answer about the financial viability of her party's proposals.

    So, successive Prime Ministers are in office but not in power to use a hackneyed old expression. There's a worrying retreat into ethno-nationalism on all sides -the old sense of "looking after our own" (however that is defined). The adversarial nature of modern politics prevents the kind of cross-cutting concensus which might drive forward meaningful reform.

    No one wants to touch pensioner benefits because pensioners vote and in large numbers whereas, it seems, younger people don't. The other side of that is the aspirational minority are also ignored - those who simply want better lives for themselves and their families (yes, they are praised and called "hard working" but that's often not through choice).

    The "solutions" peddled round on sites like this become increasingly nonsensical - some have argued cutting benefits by 50%. No Government is going to do that, ever.
    10-20% would be a good start
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342
    Truth is that the party needs Andy Burnham. If he was an MP and thus eligible for the leadership, this would be pretty straight forward.

    Instead? Starmer is over. But as there aren't any alternative leaders who would be better, there is a serious risk that he limps on, abandoned in office. Again.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,451
    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    Labour under Blair had a pretty intense opening plan, he just ran out of steam in the second term (distracted by Iraq but also because people only have so many big ideas before they get bogged down in managerialism)
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 3,271

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    Labour under Blair had a pretty intense opening plan, he just ran out of steam in the second term (distracted by Iraq but also because people only have so many big ideas before they get bogged down in managerialism)
    So they are trying managerialism first with big ideas to follow?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,376
    edited April 19
    https://x.com/i/status/2045778812848246853

    Text for those not wanting to click link

    Here's the official government position on the Mandelson vetting scandal this morning, according to Liz Kendall:

    * Olly Robbins was 'wrong' not to tell the PM that Mandelson had failed security vetting, he was 'wrong' again not to do so when the PM repeatedly claimed in public - incorrectly - that due process had been followed

    * The PM would not have given Mandelson clearance if he knew that he had failed UK Security Vetting

    * No 10 asked 'repeated questions' about Mandelson's vetting and was told 'due process' had been followed. These questions, and the responses, are now key

    * Starmer allies are warning allies that changing leaders now - at a time of global and economic instability - would be reckless

    *********

    Does not hold up. If he would have not given clearance why did he not ask if UK Security Vetting had failed or passed?
    If X then I cannot grant Y, you have to know X.
    But, of course, all he was interested in was 'due process' having been followed.
    The eggs had been broken, therefore there must be an omelette
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,451
    Battlebus said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    Labour under Blair had a pretty intense opening plan, he just ran out of steam in the second term (distracted by Iraq but also because people only have so many big ideas before they get bogged down in managerialism)
    So they are trying managerialism first with big ideas to follow?
    If only! At least that way they would be managing things. I think they are drifting
  • A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 13,451
    edited April 19

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    You’re absolutely right. Johnson was a fool and a buffoon, but his failings were largely personal morality. This is way more serious.

    Starmer: Mene, mene, tekel upharsin
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,376

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,326

    IanB2 said:

    Max Hastings: “ Since January 2024 our world has been wantonly plunged into a maelstrom. Americans, for so long the perceived more-or-less good guys, have become the fount of economic crisis, military menaces and planned disorder such as Russia or Iran would be quite incapable of generating.”

    “Many years ago when I lived in the US, I often heard it wryly said that if the 1787 Constitution was so marvellous, why had no other nation ever copied it? Now we know. It is dependent upon the conduct in power of reasonable people, recognising bounds of decency and discretion. In the absence of these things, there are no effective checks and balances. The rest of us can only stand by and recognise the extraordinary, almost unbearable truth: the US is no longer our friend, and stands on the cusp of becoming our enemy.”

    To be fair to the Americans the second paragraph is exactly the criticism that is levelled at the British constitution as well. All constitutional arrangements have this flaw.

    Admittedly the SCOTUS ruling on Presidential immunity was a blow and the politicisation of the judiciary is a huge problem in the US .

    However there’s an argument that there are still more checks and balances in the US .

    If you had a very malign politician in the UK with a commons majority the damage they could do to the country is immense .

    There is little recourse to courts that’s why Reform must get nowhere near power .
  • TresTres Posts: 3,669
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    I think that is a little harsh. Thatcherism had real political heft behind it and clear objectives. These included reform of our labour laws in a way not really challenged since. Remember flying pickets and the violence (as well as the self destructive nature of so many disputes)? She was very into sound money and monetarism. Both of those were there from the start. I accept these themes got embellished as she went along and not always in good ways but there was a plan.

    Blair also had plans although many of the more significant ones came from Brown. Independence for the BoE, Surestart, a focus on failing schools that had largely been ignored before. Lots of other silly stuff as well of course.

    Cameron inherited an absolute disaster zone which I think threw most of his ambitions into the bin. Everything was driven by the need to restore our finances but his "fix the roof while the sun is shining" drove his government. Socially liberal too with gay marriage etc.

    Sunak faced almost as bad a situation as Cameron. The lack of money for any ambition has been a common theme for all PMs since 2010.
    and yet we spend a decade faffing around with the dead end of brexit
  • You have to admire his tenacity.

    There's a fine line between tenacity and self-delusion and I would put Burnham on the wrong side of it.
    I have no doubt Burnham will end up being PM.

    But like Starmer, there is this idea he will be a good one just because he isn’t Starmer. Burnham’s previous attempts at running for leader were pretty bad.

    Now maybe he’s improved a lot since then but I’m not really seeing this cabinet of ideas others are. No doubt he’s a significantly better speaker than Starmer though and I suspect Labour will lead the polls if he takes over. But it may well be a very short honeymoon as reality bites.

    His comments on the markets though give me great cause for concern.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 32,342
    Eabhal said:

    $150 return trip to World Cup stadiums, and they’ve made walking to it (an hour) literally illegal.

    People can witter on about GDP per capita but I think a large majority of people in the UK would reject the kind of racketeering that goes on in the US. A broken country.

    Other news stories about host cities already slashing the prices of hotels due to the lack of demand.

    Boycott Gilead.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,138
    edited April 19

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,215
    nico67 said:

    On the most important decision facing a PM as in the Iran War Starmer got that right. This is the line Kendall and I expect the rest of the cabinet will continue to take .

    So he totally fxcked up on Mandelson but the public need to balance that against what could have happened if Farage or Badenoch were in charge.

    The public aren’t kept awake at night over the Mandelson affair but are really worried about paying the bills and should realize that Farage and Badenoch would have supported action that made that worse . This really is the message that Starmer is likely to go with .

    I’m not sure how our position re Iran would be any different if we had joined the US and Israeli attacks. Iran hates us and has us on the list of enemies already. Hormuz would be just as blocked. What am I missing?
  • Can somebody explain to me if Robert Jenrick is so brilliant why he didn’t do any of his apparently amazing ideas in the 14 years he sat in government?
  • TresTres Posts: 3,669

    FPT @Foxy

    Foxy said:



    I think you are unfair to most wealthy people. There are some very high profile examples of greedy people (especially among techbros) but ‘twas ever thus. A lot of other families quietly make massively generous donations - most often to local causes. One Westminster based family I’ve come across in the past, for example, is the largest single donor to the university of Westminster, Chelsea & Westminster hospital and Westminster Abbey. You might not make the same choices they do (and I probably wouldn’t) but it’s hard to deny their generosity (they donate about 12.5% of their pre-tax income annually)

    Yes, very much the Charles Dickens solution to poverty, with kind hearted Gentlemen helping out the poor, particularly poor Gentlefolk, rather than real proletarians.

    It is better than being an unreformed Scrooge I suppose.
    Frankly @Foxy attitudes like that really fuck me off. I thought better of you.

    Such a sneering attitude to other people’s charitable giving is beneath you. All giving should be encouraged.

    I wouldn’t have chosen those causes myself but for the last 15 years they given £300k per year to fund all the overheads for a social mobility focused charity that I used to be involved in).

    (FWIW did you know that Westminster has one of the highest percentages of kids on free school meals in the country? Scholarships for local kids to the University of Westminster - which is what they fund - offers a fantastic route out of poverty for many who otherwise wouldn’t have the opportunity.)
    pic of the day

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,650
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    I think that is a little harsh. Thatcherism had real political heft behind it and clear objectives. These included reform of our labour laws in a way not really challenged since. Remember flying pickets and the violence (as well as the self destructive nature of so many disputes)? She was very into sound money and monetarism. Both of those were there from the start. I accept these themes got embellished as she went along and not always in good ways but there was a plan.

    Blair also had plans although many of the more significant ones came from Brown. Independence for the BoE, Surestart, a focus on failing schools that had largely been ignored before. Lots of other silly stuff as well of course.

    Cameron inherited an absolute disaster zone which I think threw most of his ambitions into the bin. Everything was driven by the need to restore our finances but his "fix the roof while the sun is shining" drove his government. Socially liberal too with gay marriage etc.

    Sunak faced almost as bad a situation as Cameron. The lack of money for any ambition has been a common theme for all PMs since 2010.
    Sunak also faced a dysfunctional Party. The rest needs no qualification.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    I think that is a little harsh. Thatcherism had real political heft behind it and clear objectives. These included reform of our labour laws in a way not really challenged since. Remember flying pickets and the violence (as well as the self destructive nature of so many disputes)? She was very into sound money and monetarism. Both of those were there from the start. I accept these themes got embellished as she went along and not always in good ways but there was a plan.

    Blair also had plans although many of the more significant ones came from Brown. Independence for the BoE, Surestart, a focus on failing schools that had largely been ignored before. Lots of other silly stuff as well of course.

    Cameron inherited an absolute disaster zone which I think threw most of his ambitions into the bin. Everything was driven by the need to restore our finances but his "fix the roof while the sun is shining" drove his government. Socially liberal too with gay marriage etc.

    Sunak faced almost as bad a situation as Cameron. The lack of money for any ambition has been a common theme for all PMs since 2010.
    Sunak also faced a dysfunctional Party. The rest needs no qualification.
    I think in “good” times Sunak would have been “fine”.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,669

    Can somebody explain to me if Robert Jenrick is so brilliant why he didn’t do any of his apparently amazing ideas in the 14 years he sat in government?

    cos he's a ****
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 22,880
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    That speaks to something more fundamental than simply the character (or lack of it) of a PrimeMInister.

    The more worrying answer is simply there was no plan because there is no plan. I called it "the death of ideology" a while back - Thatcher had a plan of sorts though it was really the 1983 victory which allowed her to pursue it. Attlee had circumstances quite unlike anything before or since.

    Before that, perhaps Asquith in 1906 - the three radical reforming Governments of the 20th century.

    Now, there is no radical, reforming ideology out there - the centre left has had no economic policy since 2008, the centre right knows austerity (whatever that means) doesn't work and has no ideas. The populists have filled the gap but their plans are fiscally incoherent.

    To her credit, Badenoch has started to see a way forward but unfortunately, in order to win power, she has to get votes and that means uncosted promises so she too will end up having questions to answer about the financial viability of her party's proposals.

    So, successive Prime Ministers are in office but not in power to use a hackneyed old expression. There's a worrying retreat into ethno-nationalism on all sides -the old sense of "looking after our own" (however that is defined). The adversarial nature of modern politics prevents the kind of cross-cutting concensus which might drive forward meaningful reform.

    No one wants to touch pensioner benefits because pensioners vote and in large numbers whereas, it seems, younger people don't. The other side of that is the aspirational minority are also ignored - those who simply want better lives for themselves and their families (yes, they are praised and called "hard working" but that's often not through choice).

    The "solutions" peddled round on sites like this become increasingly nonsensical - some have argued cutting benefits by 50%. No Government is going to do that, ever.
    Asquith was not leader in 1906, but yes, I agree with your general point.

    With Thatcher, (also a reply to @DavidL ) I think her ideas were mostly slogans. She talked, for example, about curbing the unions but at first had little idea of how to go about it. Indeed, if anything they did it to themselves with the disastrous strike at British Steel. She also talked about stemming inflation but her policies on how to do it were fairly unclear. It is true she did eventually come up with some ideas to turn them into some form of reality but they often seemed to be rather a long way from what she talked about.
    And a fair bit of the success of Thatcher, Major and Blair was about being in the right place at the right time. The time when the boomers were net taxpayers as much as anything else. They were happy to flatter us that it was a new stable normal. After them, the music stopped.

    But whilst a big new Idea that unlocks more easy prosperity would be nice, I fear it's like the tale of the time Richard Feynman was in a meeting with army top brass about how science could help the national defenses.

    "What we really need is a tank that is powered by sand."

    Sometimes there are no new ideas. Or as in many arts, the new ideas are clearly worse than the old ones. Perhaps we just have to accept two unpalatable old ideas.

    First, that a nation costs, and broad-based taxes are how we should pay. Second, that we've spent ages not paying enough, and are going to be paying more for less for quite a while.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,376

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    Tres said:

    Can somebody explain to me if Robert Jenrick is so brilliant why he didn’t do any of his apparently amazing ideas in the 14 years he sat in government?

    cos he's a ****
    That's an outrageous slur on ****s.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 8,326

    nico67 said:

    On the most important decision facing a PM as in the Iran War Starmer got that right. This is the line Kendall and I expect the rest of the cabinet will continue to take .

    So he totally fxcked up on Mandelson but the public need to balance that against what could have happened if Farage or Badenoch were in charge.

    The public aren’t kept awake at night over the Mandelson affair but are really worried about paying the bills and should realize that Farage and Badenoch would have supported action that made that worse . This really is the message that Starmer is likely to go with .

    I’m not sure how our position re Iran would be any different if we had joined the US and Israeli attacks. Iran hates us and has us on the list of enemies already. Hormuz would be just as blocked. What am I missing?
    The most important decision any PM can take is in matters of war .

    The Labour line which is what I suggested last night is for Starmer to accept it’s a clusterfxck, apologize then hammer Badenoch and Farage on the Iran War.

    The mantra I fxcked up but on the most important decision I got it right whilst the other two got it wrong .

    Deflection and reminding the public who supported their bills going up seems the only course of action as Operation Save Starmer kicks in.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504
    edited April 19

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    I think that is a little harsh. Thatcherism had real political heft behind it and clear objectives. These included reform of our labour laws in a way not really challenged since. Remember flying pickets and the violence (as well as the self destructive nature of so many disputes)? She was very into sound money and monetarism. Both of those were there from the start. I accept these themes got embellished as she went along and not always in good ways but there was a plan.

    Blair also had plans although many of the more significant ones came from Brown. Independence for the BoE, Surestart, a focus on failing schools that had largely been ignored before. Lots of other silly stuff as well of course.

    Cameron inherited an absolute disaster zone which I think threw most of his ambitions into the bin. Everything was driven by the need to restore our finances but his "fix the roof while the sun is shining" drove his government. Socially liberal too with gay marriage etc.

    Sunak faced almost as bad a situation as Cameron. The lack of money for any ambition has been a common theme for all PMs since 2010.
    Sunak also faced a dysfunctional Party. The rest needs no qualification.
    It was all that booze and cake.

    Oh, sorry, not that sort of party?
  • A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
    Others were saying he was worse than Johnson. I don’t agree about that.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 15,650

    Eabhal said:

    $150 return trip to World Cup stadiums, and they’ve made walking to it (an hour) literally illegal.

    People can witter on about GDP per capita but I think a large majority of people in the UK would reject the kind of racketeering that goes on in the US. A broken country.

    Other news stories about host cities already slashing the prices of hotels due to the lack of demand.

    Boycott Gilead.
    After the Atlanta Olympics no major sporting organisation should have entrusted its premier tournament to the US.
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 7,138
    edited April 19
    The only “big” call Starmer got right was Iran. But that was a very big call.

    Imagine we’d been dragged into that. What would people be saying now?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,421
    edited April 19
    ydoethur said:

    Tres said:

    Can somebody explain to me if Robert Jenrick is so brilliant why he didn’t do any of his apparently amazing ideas in the 14 years he sat in government?

    cos he's a ****
    That's an outrageous slur on ****s.
    Indeed. Jenrick has neither the depth nor the warmth.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 17,376

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
    Others were saying he was worse than Johnson. I don’t agree about that.
    Fair enough.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797
    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    Blair had one de facto, because Brown had one. Didn't Cameron have one, technically? May had one forced on her by events.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,215

    The only “big” call Starmer got right was Iran. But that was a very big call.

    Imagine we’d been dragged into that. What would people be saying now?

    Again, how would our situation be different?
  • TazTaz Posts: 28,200

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
    Others were saying he was worse than Johnson. I don’t agree about that.
    Forensic SKS made a big deal about integrity and Johnson’s failings when in opposition.

    In power he’s little better.

    To me he’s just as bad, if not worse, than Johnson given his posturing about the issue prior to the election.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 60,421

    The only “big” call Starmer got right was Iran. But that was a very big call.

    Imagine we’d been dragged into that. What would people be saying now?

    We didn't have the weaponry to be "dragged in".

    We have supplied aircraft to shoot down drones attacking our business partners around the Gulf. We have let the B52's use Fairford. Who knows what their targets actually were whilst saying we restricted them to "defensive" actions. We have not restricted the use of USAF bases in Suffolk/Norfolk as part of a supply network from the US.

    Tell me what more Starmer would have actually done if he had gone in with full-throated support for Trump's war?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,797
    Battlebus said:

    ydoethur said:

    Has Burnham given any indication as to what he would do differently as PM or all his energies concentrated on the process of becoming PM ?

    Who was the last PM to have a meaningful idea of what they would do in office before they got to it? Cameron and Blair were essentially soundbites. Johnson was a chameleon. Sunak was a technocrat. Starmer likewise. Callaghan and Major too. Truss I will give you but her ideas turned out to be insane and she only lasted six weeks. Thatcher claimed to have a plan in her memoirs but she gave little indication of it before coming in and there's always a suspicion that she made it up as she went along. Heath had a plan but never tried to implement it.

    Do we have to go back to Wilson before Truss? And before him Attlee?
    Labour under Blair had a pretty intense opening plan, he just ran out of steam in the second term (distracted by Iraq but also because people only have so many big ideas before they get bogged down in managerialism)
    So they are trying managerialism first with big ideas to follow?
    They're not even doing that. Starmer gives free rein to his ministers to do what they like, providing nobody brings him bad news or there's a big fuss in the press. Lammy is (was?) restricting the right to trial by jury, for example
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 37,440

    https://x.com/i/status/2045778812848246853

    Text for those not wanting to click link

    Here's the official government position on the Mandelson vetting scandal this morning, according to Liz Kendall:

    * Olly Robbins was 'wrong' not to tell the PM that Mandelson had failed security vetting, he was 'wrong' again not to do so when the PM repeatedly claimed in public - incorrectly - that due process had been followed

    * The PM would not have given Mandelson clearance if he knew that he had failed UK Security Vetting

    * No 10 asked 'repeated questions' about Mandelson's vetting and was told 'due process' had been followed. These questions, and the responses, are now key

    * Starmer allies are warning allies that changing leaders now - at a time of global and economic instability - would be reckless

    *********

    Does not hold up. If he would have not given clearance why did he not ask if UK Security Vetting had failed or passed?
    If X then I cannot grant Y, you have to know X.
    But, of course, all he was interested in was 'due process' having been followed.
    The eggs had been broken, therefore there must be an omelette

    Good Morning one and all! And a fine and bright one it is here, if a little breezy.
    I've posted before, and hold to the view, that appointing Mandelson to deal with a slippery (at best) customer like Trump could have turned out to be a good idea. However, clearly Mandelson was even dodgier than Starmer thought (?knew) he was. After all, he had a significantly suspicion-arousing background.
    But I really, really do not understand why, if someone fails a vetting procedure, the person who is likely to need the information isn't told. And if the person appointing isn't told, why on earth was the question not asked: if X has gone through the vetting process, was everything satisfactory?
    What, otherwise, is the point of the 'vetting procedure'; if the result of such procedure is that the subject is found to be totally unsuitable, surely then the candidate should be ruled out?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 23,215

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
    Others were saying he was worse than Johnson. I don’t agree about that.
    Starmer has been shown to be a hypocrite. He attacked and attacked Johnson over partygate, called for him to resign etc but has done just the same himself. He has mislead parliament. He won’t resign though because he has no honour.
  • Taz said:

    A few people are willing Starmer to go (and were predicting this outcome a few days ago).

    I for one think he should have resigned long ago. But he’s not going to and no amount of huffing and puffing is going to change that.

    The idea this is anything on the scale of Boris Johnson I find quite absurd in all honesty.

    Not being as bad as Boris is not a benchmark for suitability to continue in a role
    Did you skip over the many comments I’ve made that Starmer should go on the basis of appointing Mandelson in the first place?

    The reality is that he isn’t resigning. He should, but he isn’t going to.
    I didnt say you had suggested he should stay. Just pointing out Boris iant relevant to this scandal, that was its own thing.
    Others were saying he was worse than Johnson. I don’t agree about that.
    Forensic SKS made a big deal about integrity and Johnson’s failings when in opposition.

    In power he’s little better.

    To me he’s just as bad, if not worse, than Johnson given his posturing about the issue prior to the election.
    No doubt about the fact Starmer is a hypocrite. But I don’t think Starmer made this call out of malice or a lack of integrity.

    I think unfortunately the idea he’s not really driving the train has become very accurate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 79,504

    Foxy said:

    SkyNet gets ever closer:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2026/04/14/zelensky-says-kyiv-seized-a-russian-position-with-drones-and-robots-is-this-a-game-changer-a92497

    No humans in the action. The Russians surrendered to machines made of metal and plastic.

    Ukraine are forming more drone units with a minimum number of human soldiers.

    If they'd listened to the Biden administration they would have conscripted all their young men and sent them to the front to die instead of developing machines to do the fighting for them.

    Early in the war I was mocked for suggesting that Ukraine might end up chasing Russia out of Ukraine with drones. That possibility comes closer to becoming reality.
    Another 1,070 Russian troops and 87 artillery pieces/MLRS not reporting for duty in Ukraine today.

    The artillery has been hammered this week - 464 pieces whacked. It seems as soon as they open up, the drones now locate and destroy them, using operators many miles distant. The chance of the Russians hitting back at those attackers are minimal. Destroying Russian artillery ends Russia's ability to wage war the way it likes: flatten a town with artillery, send in troops to capture the rubble, advance the artillery, repeat. Drones now mean grey areas tens of miles wide. Any advance into that grey area ends in carnage - before the Russians even see a Ukrainian position. Hence you get reported kill ratios of 25:1.

    Any rational army would retreat, knowing it is beaten.

    Under Putin, any rational generals would be sent to lead from the front.

    Meanwhile, the schools, hospitals, markets, residential tower blocks of the Ukainian populace get hit - because that is the only war Russia can now wage: terror.

    If the Ukrainians were to respond in kind and flatten Moscow and St. Petersburg schools, hospitals, markets, tower blocks, then Putin would have only himself to blame. But rather tha terrorising the Russian population, Ukraine is doing something far more effective: destroying the Russian economy.

    In 1914-21 the Russian economy managed to sustain seven years of war, but was an absolute wreck at the end of it - economic activity as a whole down 79%, grain harvest down 52%, steel production down by 98%, brick production down by an even more staggering 99.99%.

    The war is into its fifth year. Where is this going for Russia? Wheat harvests look set to be up this year on last year's absolute disaster but they are still down 10% on before the war. Oil production has rebounded from the absolute crash in mid-2022 but is still down about 8%. Oil exports are down more, at closer to 10%. Gold production is down 14% too.

    Russia's economy has survived much better than expected but it is still not doing well. Two more years of this would not be helpful for it although Trump is doing his best to support them.
This discussion has been closed.