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The latest Gorton & Denton by-election betting – politicalbetting.com

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  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 3,523
    Roger said:

    Cookie said:

    Any idea why the Greens are strongish favourites? They’d be my preferred choice but it’d be interesting to know if there’s data behind it.

    I had Greens to win this from the start. Reasons include:
    1) Simple psephology. Greens are snapping at Labour's heels nationally.
    2) This won't be distributed evenly. Some seats will be greener than others. My view is that seats with a lot of young voters will be greener, if for no other reason than tuition fees. More so where there are a lot of students or recent graduates. Even more so where those recent graduates aren't the obvious winners of the process.
    3) Following the example of Caerphilly, there will be a coalescence of left wing votes around whichever non-Labour party is best placed to beat Reform.
    4) The Muslim bloc isn't voting Labour in a by-election.
    I would add; a particularly attractive Green candidate and a particularly unattractive Reform candidate
    The adoption of Goodwin seems another step in the MAGA-fication of Reform. He's the Brit equivalent of Bannon, Carlson, Hegseth. An "opinion-former" full of lurid theories, with access to the online media through alt-right channels. Farage really has gone down that rabbit-hole and seems to be glorying in it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,583
    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect that (even) Mandelson still has a few friends high up in the Labour Party. And, indeed, elsewhere; it's not realised sometimes that in politics odd friendships occur. @NP mentions it on odd occasions.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,453
    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect we are very much into breeches of the Official Secrets Act at the very least..
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,194
    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    An indication that Ed M is more politically astute than Starmer?
    Asked in 2010 if he'd give Mandy a job "All of us believe in dignity in retirement," replied Ed Miliband
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    Mandelson is yes still Lord Mandelson and able to attend, debate in and vote in the Lords even if no longer with the Labour whip.

    He still has a title, unlike Andrew Mountbatten Windsor and he still takes part in public life unlike Andrew too
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,434
    isam said:

    Taz said:

    Newcastle United players displaying all the class I would expect from them.

    Watch: Newcastle mascot abandoned by players before Liverpool defeat

    Club say they were unaware of the incident but pledge to make amends with the young supporter


    Newcastle United will reach out to the family of a mascot who was left standing alone on the pitch at Anfield after she had been ignored by the club’s players before kick-off.

    Telegraph Sport contacted senior figures at the club after a video circulated on social media of the young girl looking lost and confused before Newcastle’s 4-1 defeat by Liverpool on Saturday evening.

    Club officials were not aware of the incident but have pledged to look into what happened and to put things right for the young supporter.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2026/02/01/watch-newcastle-mascot-abandoned-by-players-liverpool/

    Compare the entitled Geordies how they treat a mascot to how Sunderland, their near neighbours, how they treated little Bradley Lowery.

    I guess that’s Saudi money for you.

    Nice to see Villa lose too.
    Villa were massively outperforming xG, and now they've regressed to the mean. Backing them while every shot they had was going in while none of those they faced did was like buying into a bubble
    So Villa are no different to Silver and Natural gas.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,434

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    Ishmael, formerly of this parish used to say ‘if someone shows you who they are, believe them’

    Sage advice.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,255
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect we are very much into breeches of the Official Secrets Act at the very least..
    Question for Starmer: "If evidence of this had come across your desk while you were head of the CPS, would you have chosen to prosecute?"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the Find out Now poll is not far from the truth. The Greens are overhyped for Gorton and Denton which is not inner city Manchester, voted 50% Leave and is majority working class.

    A Labour v Reform battle is likely and Labour have sensibly picked a local councillor and got Burnham back campaigning for them and will see tactical votes to beat Goodwin. Reform meanwhile will have Advance taking some of their votes, though Goodwin has been endorsed by Tommy Robinson

    I suppose both Labour and Reform want a Labour vs Reform framing whereas the Greens want a Greens vs Reform framing. The first is supported by that 'poll'. The second by the betting.
    The betting in my view is wrong, if it was just Gorton which is really culturally the city of Manchester the Greens might have a shot but Denton is much more white working class.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Is there not a Big House, where we take those whom we no longer trust to safely remain part of society?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    When you are grubbing around for votes in the NOTA pond, then the Greens are the new Shiny Thing. Despite being around for ever (like Farage). I do wonder if there might be some Reform to Green movement cuz New Shiny Thing.

    Movng across the political spectrum probably doesn't bother these voters. They just like the buggeration factor. In a by-election, even more so.

    I suspect the Greens "tax the rich" policy goes down well on the doorsteps there.

    With the Workers Party not standing, and Advance UK choosing a candidate who beat Reform (as an Independent) in the 2024 GM Mayoral race, and Burnham out helping the Lab candidate the momentum has shifted left.

    I think Greens are too short and have had a nibble on Lab Hold, so green on Green and Red now.

    If Reform come third then the national narrative may change.
    I don't see Reform coming third, reform have the right wing tending voters (36% or so) - which is why you don't want the left wing vote split.

    Hopefully some campaign leaflet and a actual valid poll will tell left wing voters the correct way to put their anti-reform vote.
    I think that the strong local Advance UK candidate will pick up some of that vote. He did beat Reform into 4th place in the Mayoral race last year.
    Is that the Tommy Robinson outfit?
    It was but Robinson endorsed Goodwin even though Habib led Advance are standing a candidate
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,713
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Is there not a Big House, where we take those whom we no longer trust to safely remain part of society?
    There's an empty Big House in the middle of Dartmoor I believe. Ideal.

    A bit of Radon never did anyone any harm.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    Based on his public record, his appointment was a major risk - he had resigned multiple times for ethics breaches.

    If nothing else, he needed a thorough & deep investigation into his activities before being appointed. Not a one page "Good Chap" report - a telephone directory sized work on his life and times.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    I interpret that as saying that we shouldn't be rude to Good Chap(passes) - just give them the jobs they deserve.

    #NU10K
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:04AM

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.




    I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour/Tories/LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
  • eekeek Posts: 32,453

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect we are very much into breeches of the Official Secrets Act at the very least..
    Question for Starmer: "If evidence of this had come across your desk while you were head of the CPS, would you have chosen to prosecute?"
    I suspect that question is 1 for a few weeks time once we’ve seen all the evidence - the journalists looking at this are emphasizing that x million documents can’t be checked instantly so it’s taking time to find the juicy bits
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 15,143
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    Ishmael, formerly of this parish used to say ‘if someone shows you who they are, believe them’

    Sage advice.
    Ishmael culturally appropriated it from Maya Angelou.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    edited 11:05AM
    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.




    I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)

    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581

    Good morning

    Despite Polanski and Greens being as unsuitable for government as Farage I would vote Green just to hope Reform do not win

    Then you may well elect Reform anyway if FON is correct and Labour are second to Reform not the Greens
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:11AM

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)

    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'

    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all using LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats and given their common enemy is also the LD enemy I doubt Davey will complain
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,453
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect we are very much into breeches of the Official Secrets Act at the very least..
    Probably not the only breeches Mandelson has been into.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 1,026
    edited 11:12AM
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'

    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats

    (Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:16AM
    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'
    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats

    '(Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!'

    Good to hear and Alex Burghart is a good MP, even in 2024 Brentwood and Ongar was Tory first, Reform second so yes if you don't vote Tory there you will get a Reform MP.

    Romford though had a Labour MP for 4 years from 1997 until Rosindell won it in 2001 so Labour will equally claim they can win especially as they were second to Rosindell in 2024 ahead of Reform
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,255
    https://x.com/KateEMcCann/status/2018259184853147720

    In response to these emails and the associated allegations Peter Mandelson tells @TimesRadio he will not be giving interviews and “had no idea what he [Neidle] is talking about”
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Sandpit said:

    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?

    It's interesting that the company that delivered AI's first big moment is looking like the first domino and may take Oracle down with them and is making MS wobble quite badly for the first time I've seen in decades.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,583

    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I suspect we are very much into breeches of the Official Secrets Act at the very least..
    Probably not the only breeches Mandelson has been into.
    Surely that's unlikely?
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,387
    edited 11:18AM
    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'
    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats


    (Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!


    I think there is a trend there. Soft/Centrist Tories found a temporary home with the LibDems rather than holding there noses and voting Reform. Certainly a trend here on the South Coast.

    Off topic and one for the economic historians. When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,583
    Battlebus said:

    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'
    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats

    (Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!


    I think there is a trend there. Soft/Centrist Tories found a temporary home with the LibDems rather than holding there noses and voting Reform. Certainly a trend here on the South Coast.

    Off topic and one for the economic historians. When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    The Bretton Woods Conference in (I think) 1944?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,990
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    edited 11:24AM
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?

    It's interesting that the company that delivered AI's first big moment is looking like the first domino and may take Oracle down with them and is making MS wobble quite badly for the first time I've seen in decades.
    The reaction to MS earnings call last week was astonishing.

    As anyone who uses Windows and Office Microsoft Copilot 365 will attest, they are trying to push AI-everything to an audience that at best doesn’t like it and doesn’t want it, and at worst is very concerned about sensitive data ending up in places it shouldn’t be.

    Their own AI-first Windows updates in recent months have introduced hundreds of bugs, and severely regressed their flagship operating system to the point where it’s borderline unusable, with experienced sysadmins (raises hand!) pulling their hair out at the company.

    Fingers crossed we might see RAM prices start to fall as well, my quote for a rack of servers just went up 30% since December, and the vendors are only making quotes valid for 7 days which makes procurement a nightmare.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,479
    edited 11:25AM
    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    edited 11:26AM
    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    Two word answer: Bretton Woods.

    Edit: your edit hit first.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:27AM
    'It's time now for the Government to put forward legislation to strip Peter Mandelson of his peerage.

    It's the very least they can do for the victims and survivors of his friend Jeffrey Epstein. If Mandelson has any shame left, he'll retire from the House of Lords today.'
    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2018270706992079069?s=20
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,572
    edited 11:32AM

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)

    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.

    Hey Malmesbury, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate Centrists will protect you! Check it out! Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a Parliamentary constituency with this puppy. We got tactical smart missiles, phased plasma pulse rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, leaflets with dodgy bar charts....
  • eekeek Posts: 32,453
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?

    It's interesting that the company that delivered AI's first big moment is looking like the first domino and may take Oracle down with them and is making MS wobble quite badly for the first time I've seen in decades.
    I think MS’s backup plan was when OpenAI went down they would end up owning the OpenAI’s models. Trouble is they aren’t that good.

    Oracle is utterly screwed by their commitments though as they are borrowing money on the basis that OpenAI will be spending $60bn a year with them -and AWS is a merely $110bn business.

    I suspect the ideal result for both MS and Oracle is for OpenAI to fall apart sooner rather than later (because OpenAI isn’t going to be the winner here).
  • Jim_the_LurkerJim_the_Lurker Posts: 241
    edited 11:30AM

    Battlebus said:

    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'
    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats

    (Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!
    I think there is a trend there. Soft/Centrist Tories found a temporary home with the LibDems rather than holding there noses and voting Reform. Certainly a trend here on the South Coast.

    Off topic and one for the economic historians. When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    The Bretton Woods Conference in (I think) 1944?

    Not an expert on this by any means. However, I am sure one of the key determinants (at least according to Helen Thompson) was the move of Oil to be pretty much (or at least ME Oil) entirely priced in USD. But clearly Bretton Woods helped create the demand for Dollars (as did the Marshall plan - circa 20% of that aid was spent on oil using dollars).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,583
    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    That wasn't a quote from me.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,164
    Battlebus said:

    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I suspect the infamous, statistically irrelevant, Find Out Now poll has allowed Labour to frame the narrative as a two horse race between them and Reform



    Labour being 5/1 against on Betfair suggests no-one sees this as a 2-horse race with Labour. Was that a typo in the header and Greens was meant?

    Betfair's prices are:-
    Green 1.86 (implying a 54% chance of taking the seat)
    Reform 3.15 (or 32%)
    Labour 6.2 (or 16%)

    My feeling is Labour is value at the price but I've nothing to go on other than it ought to be a safe Labour seat which is why Burnham wanted it. Unless Labour activists effectively strike over Burnham's rejection by the NEC, which is possible, 11/2 looks too big. That said, the market probably knows more than me. The overnight move by the Greens does suggest new information is in play.
    In the constituency and on social media, Labour are pumping out bar charts like this.


    'I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)
    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.'
    Tories, Labour, Greens, they are all LD barcharts now given the rampaging Reform hordes coming over the parapets of their seats

    (Edit - formatting seems to be messed up... my bit below)
    You may be interested to learn that my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out, if things stay as they are.

    As may I in Romford, now Rosindell has defected. I may need a large drop of brandy before and after if it comes to that!


    I think there is a trend there. Soft/Centrist Tories found a temporary home with the LibDems rather than holding there noses and voting Reform. Certainly a trend here on the South Coast.

    Off topic and one for the economic historians. When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    When Britain returned to the Gold Standard in in 1925, the post-WW I economy couldn't really cope with maintaining the same exchange rate- "the economic consequences of Mr. Churchill" and this together with the Great Depression finally forced the country out for all time in 1931. The US gained reserve currency status with lend-lease and this was cemented with Bretton Woods in 1944. So Britain had definitively lost its reserve status by 1944, but it took somewhere between 20 and 30 years.

    Interestingly, Sterling is now the third most traded currency after the USD and EUR, but ahead of CNY and JPY. There are some signs that Britain is beginning to recover from the long slump after the GFC.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,989
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?

    It's interesting that the company that delivered AI's first big moment is looking like the first domino and may take Oracle down with them and is making MS wobble quite badly for the first time I've seen in decades.
    It's starting to look as though the software side of this has plenty (too much ?) competition for them all to fund the (much more defensible) hardware manufacturing.

    China replicating western efforts isn't helping either.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,255
    edited 11:32AM
    Battlebus said:


    Off topic and one for the economic historians. When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I don't think the term "reserve currency" was used very much until the transition away from gold to a dollar-based system.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 7,453
    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691

    HYUFD said:



    I expect all the main traditional parties will be doing similar at the next GE ie only Labour-Tories-LDs can beat Reform here (and the Greens can also do that in the 4 seats they hold)

    I am waiting for the Lib Dems to formally complain about that bar chart.

    Go on, make my Monday.
    Well it’s clearly not a Lib Dem bar chart, because the y-axis columns are proportional to the actual values in the poll.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,428
    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Since everybody due to play at the Kennedy Center has cancelled, the Mad King has decided to close it for two years

    @reichlinmelnick.bsky.social‬

    Unreal. He’s shutting down the Kennedy Center, after his flunkies caused mass defections of artists?

    Everything the man touches turns to ash. Our cultural heritage; destroyed. Our national treasures; plundered.

    https://bsky.app/profile/reichlinmelnick.bsky.social/post/3mdtifex7sc2e

    Nah he’s going to refurbish it in gold leaf (skimmed) and have his name threaded through the walls so it’s hard to just take it off
    Yeah... it will, appropriately enough, look like a cheap brothel- the tastes of the Vulgarian-in-chief are not sophisticated.
    The rulers of the Gunpowder Empires may have left pyramids of heads in their wake, but they mostly had excellent artistic taste. Some were poets, miniaturists, architects, composers etc.

    Their modern-day equivalents want to furnish everything in the style of a Mexican drug lord.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 31,237
    Just when I thought the news couldn't get stranger I discover the Dalai Lama won a Grammy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:39AM

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,428
    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    Ishmael, formerly of this parish used to say ‘if someone shows you who they are, believe them’

    Sage advice.
    "Only a shallow person fails to judge by appearances."
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,686
    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    It was a gradual process, sterling is still a reserve currency albeit not an important one. The return to gold in 1925 was designed to signal that sterling was still a top tier global currency, and I suppose the exit from gold in 1931 showed that that fiction couldn't hold. The Bretton Woods system set up after WW2 had the USD at its core with the USD itself pegged to gold. So by this point it was clear that the USD was the preeminent global currency. Sterling's repeated devaluation within the BW system will have further eroded its status as a reserve currency. It accounts for a bit less than 5% of global reserve assets currently, IIRC.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,583
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes
    By some Quirk didn't Hutton go Reform last year?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:41AM

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes
    By some Quirk didn't Hutton go Reform last year?
    It did but with less than 50% of the vote, had Labour and LD and Green voters voted for the second placed Tory he would have won
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,989
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    Two word answer: Bretton Woods.

    Edit: your edit hit first.
    Or three - World War Two.

    To win WW2, the British Empire liquidated its entire gold reserves, those who understand know what that means, it essentially means you are mortgaging your entire nation and empire.

    This, in the long term lost Britain its empire, bankrupted its people and led to the only recourse being a post-war loan from the USA to just continue existence which was only paid off in 2006.

    We had to take out the loan because in 1945, we needed Lend-Lease just to get food, after VE-Day, the Americans (unexpectedly) stopped lend-lease, even though we needed it to eat, thus necessitating the enormous bank loans, we entered 1946, being THE most indebted nation in the entire modern history of mankind.

    This was, essentially "what it took" to win WW2, an immense warscape which demanded TOTAL WAR to win, a concept even Germany did not realise until 1944.

    The entire apparatus of the state had to be employed, Britain, literally sacrificed itself to defeat Hitler.

    I hope this may help explain why the FINAL ACT of war preparation could only be entered upon when it was clear that there was NO possible alternative, at the time you speak of, no such certainty existed. It was not until about 1934 that we committed to the potentiality of this level of utter sacrifice, Chamberlain carried out phase 1, which was a managable re-armament which could be reversible, i.e. could be carried out withot the utter destruction of the entire empire and state gold reserves, he also carried out, aspects of Phase 2, requiring that those with gold assets register them with the state.

    Afterwards, Churchill carried out phase 2, the required dissolution of the entire Gold assets of the British Empire.

    This was THE largest single asset movement in the entire known history of mankind. War, once it reached this technological level, was no thing to be taken flippantly.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/2018110049449656323
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    Two word answer: Bretton Woods.

    Edit: your edit hit first.
    Or three - World War Two.

    To win WW2, the British Empire liquidated its entire gold reserves, those who understand know what that means, it essentially means you are mortgaging your entire nation and empire.

    This, in the long term lost Britain its empire, bankrupted its people and led to the only recourse being a post-war loan from the USA to just continue existence which was only paid off in 2006.

    We had to take out the loan because in 1945, we needed Lend-Lease just to get food, after VE-Day, the Americans (unexpectedly) stopped lend-lease, even though we needed it to eat, thus necessitating the enormous bank loans, we entered 1946, being THE most indebted nation in the entire modern history of mankind.

    This was, essentially "what it took" to win WW2, an immense warscape which demanded TOTAL WAR to win, a concept even Germany did not realise until 1944.

    The entire apparatus of the state had to be employed, Britain, literally sacrificed itself to defeat Hitler.

    I hope this may help explain why the FINAL ACT of war preparation could only be entered upon when it was clear that there was NO possible alternative, at the time you speak of, no such certainty existed. It was not until about 1934 that we committed to the potentiality of this level of utter sacrifice, Chamberlain carried out phase 1, which was a managable re-armament which could be reversible, i.e. could be carried out withot the utter destruction of the entire empire and state gold reserves, he also carried out, aspects of Phase 2, requiring that those with gold assets register them with the state.

    Afterwards, Churchill carried out phase 2, the required dissolution of the entire Gold assets of the British Empire.

    This was THE largest single asset movement in the entire known history of mankind. War, once it reached this technological level, was no thing to be taken flippantly.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/2018110049449656323
    Indeed. Perhaps there’s a modern parallel, of a country having to sell most of its gold reserves in order to fund a war..?

    https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2025-11-28/russias-central-bank-forced-sell-gold-reserves-cover-budget-support-ruble

    At least the British can say they were on the right side in WWII.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,924
    edited 11:45AM
    Jim Pickard

    @pickardje.bsky.social‬
    BREAKING on ft website:

    Lord Peter Mandelson leaked a sensitive UK government document to Jeffrey Epstein while he was business secretary that proposed £20bn of asset sales and revealed Labour’s tax policy plans

    www.ft.com/content/fdf7...

    https://bsky.app/profile/pickardje.bsky.social/post/3mduqnamqq22l
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,428
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    When you lift up the rock, all you see are seedy little men, (sometimes women), with seedy little minds, scurrying about, and sating their appetites.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,924
    Reform out to 3 on BF for the By-Election of the Century.

    Punters think it's all over.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,240
    edited 11:47AM
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Good morning

    I think we need to wait for Gorton and Denton (its only 3 weeks away) for any predictions on Reform successes and indeed the Greens

    This high profile election will be the best opinion poll to see if the Goodwin/Tommy Robinson/Farage party is found out and also if Polanski is the new kid on the block creating serious problems for Starmer

    I would not discount labour hanging on either

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,924
    Gaby Hinsliff‬
    @gabyhinsliff.bsky.social‬
    · 22m
    apart from everything else the Mandelson scandal implies for Starmer, cannot imagine a worse backdrop for a byelection than any story combining the words 'labour politician' and 'billionaire sex offender'. I genuinely feel for the poor sods out canvassing this week.

    https://bsky.app/profile/gabyhinsliff.bsky.social/post/3mduqcq3khs2b
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,428

    Reform out to 3 on BF for the By-Election of the Century.

    Punters think it's all over.

    Reform might be good value, before long. I think that 32-35% is their ceiling in this seat, but who knows if I'm wrong.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,240

    Reform out to 3 on BF for the By-Election of the Century.

    Punters think it's all over.

    I hope so
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 1,237
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    Sean_F said:

    Reform out to 3 on BF for the By-Election of the Century.

    Punters think it's all over.

    Reform might be good value, before long. I think that 32-35% is their ceiling in this seat, but who knows if I'm wrong.
    Reform will probably win if the leftwing vote is split near equally between Labour and the Greens, however if the leftwing vote clearly rallies behind Labour or the Greens in Gorton and Denton they likely won't.

    Robinson's endorsement of Goodwin means Advance likely won't take many Reform voters
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,990
    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    Ishmael, formerly of this parish used to say ‘if someone shows you who they are, believe them’

    Sage advice.
    Ishmael culturally appropriated it from Maya Angelou.
    See Gospel of Luke 16:10 - "He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much. He who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much."
    HYUFD said:

    'It's time now for the Government to put forward legislation to strip Peter Mandelson of his peerage.

    It's the very least they can do for the victims and survivors of his friend Jeffrey Epstein. If Mandelson has any shame left, he'll retire from the House of Lords today.'
    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2018270706992079069?s=20

    Does this idiot never do any research? Or get someone to do it for him? The legislation already exists - The House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Good morning

    I think we need to wait for Gorton and Denton (its only 3 weeks away) for any predictions on Reform successes and indeed the Greens

    This high profile election will be the best opinion poll to see if the Goodwin/Tommy Robinson/Farage party is found out and also if Polanski is the new kid on the block creating serious problems for Starmer

    I would not discount labour hanging on either

    Nowcast has Labour holding Gorton and Denton even with Reform projected 345 MPs and a majority, so if Reform win Gorton and Denton it suggests a Reform landslide is likely at present.

    Even if Labour hold Gorton and Denton or the Greens win it it is not a seat Reform have to win to form a government
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,570

    Gaby Hinsliff‬
    @gabyhinsliff.bsky.social‬
    · 22m
    apart from everything else the Mandelson scandal implies for Starmer, cannot imagine a worse backdrop for a byelection than any story combining the words 'labour politician' and 'billionaire sex offender'. I genuinely feel for the poor sods out canvassing this week.

    https://bsky.app/profile/gabyhinsliff.bsky.social/post/3mduqcq3khs2b

    I mean, as a Tory footoldier, things on the doortep got bad.

    But never 'billionaire sex offender' bad!!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 69,240
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Good morning

    I think we need to wait for Gorton and Denton (its only 3 weeks away) for any predictions on Reform successes and indeed the Greens

    This high profile election will be the best opinion poll to see if the Goodwin/Tommy Robinson/Farage party is found out and also if Polanski is the new kid on the block creating serious problems for Starmer

    I would not discount labour hanging on either

    Nowcast has Labour holding Gorton and Denton even with Reform projected 345 MPs and a majority, so if Reform win Gorton and Denton it suggests a Reform landslide is likely at present.

    Even if Labour hold Gorton and Denton or the Greens win it it is not a seat Reform have to win to form a government
    https://electionmaps.uk/nowcast
    I really am not interested in guesses - just the actual results
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 11:56AM
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Taz said:

    Cicero said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Starmer should consider trying to get ahead of the game, and PMQs, on Mandelson. I'd advise him to issue a very public apology. Something like:
    With the benefit of hindsight, I recognise that it was a huge mistake to appoint Peter Mandelson as US Ambassador, and that due diligence on the appointment was inadequate, for which I accept full responsibility. I apologise unreservedly for the error.
    Better late than never.

    For the proper unqualified article the first five words need to be left out. 'Hindsight' means it wasn't a mistake at the time, so it isn't a real apology. And a later bit amended to "I made a huge mistake". Use of 'it was' or the passive - a great favourite - render an apology half hearted.

    It should have been blindingly obvious to the PM at the time, that Mandelson was a bad appointment which was likely to backfire at some point.

    One might understand the need for someone who can communicate effectively with what’s clearly a difficult US administration, but it’s also one of the top jobs in the Foreign Office and I’m sure they could have found a better candidate from somewhere.

    If the PM wants to try and get ahead of the story, he needs to straight up admit it was his mistake, and/or that Mandelson lied to him, and offer an unequivocal apology.
    As most people who have ever met Mandelson know, he is a straight forward shit. Indeed a friend who was a senior figure in the broadcast media when Mandelson was beginning his rise to New Labour fame, and despite his own pro-Labour views, described PM as "genuinely the most evil" politician he had ever dealt with.

    The comments here, at the time of his appointment were pretty clear eyed that he was a devious and untrustworthy shit- at best. If the flotsam and jetsam of PB knew that PM was a wrong 'un, then the idea that Starmer did not is simply for the birds. he took the risk, knowing it was a risk, and perhaps reassured by some bromides from the Dark Lord, that he could be effective in using his back channels with the TrumpScum. Well, as they say, that has not gone well.

    We can only hope that this greedy. unscrupulous, sinister, vain and -yes- evil man has finally been expelled from the British body politic, The doors should not just be closed behind him, but slammed.

    My conclusion, after a number of decades experience, is that if someone looks dodgy, or incapable, or naive, or narcissistic, is that they almost certainly are. Taking people at face value usually is the best course.

    And pay attention to what they ACTUALLY say. Don't be too clever about it. Don't interpret.
    Ishmael, formerly of this parish used to say ‘if someone shows you who they are, believe them’

    Sage advice.
    Ishmael culturally appropriated it from Maya Angelou.
    See Gospel of Luke 16:10 - "He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much. He who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much."
    HYUFD said:

    'It's time now for the Government to put forward legislation to strip Peter Mandelson of his peerage.

    It's the very least they can do for the victims and survivors of his friend Jeffrey Epstein. If Mandelson has any shame left, he'll retire from the House of Lords today.'
    https://x.com/EdwardJDavey/status/2018270706992079069?s=20

    Does this idiot never do any research? Or get someone to do it for him? The legislation already exists - The House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015.
    Only automatically though if a prison sentence of over a year, otherwise the House of Lords needs to vote to expel a member after a Conduct Committee report recommendation
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    Yes, I mean the senior ones who exists to block any changes or reforms to "the system" that exists to serve and protect them and their fatcat friends.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,686
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    Who knew that the centrist dads wielded such unbridled power.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 85,989
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    Two word answer: Bretton Woods.

    Edit: your edit hit first.
    Or three - World War Two.

    To win WW2, the British Empire liquidated its entire gold reserves, those who understand know what that means, it essentially means you are mortgaging your entire nation and empire.

    This, in the long term lost Britain its empire, bankrupted its people and led to the only recourse being a post-war loan from the USA to just continue existence which was only paid off in 2006.

    We had to take out the loan because in 1945, we needed Lend-Lease just to get food, after VE-Day, the Americans (unexpectedly) stopped lend-lease, even though we needed it to eat, thus necessitating the enormous bank loans, we entered 1946, being THE most indebted nation in the entire modern history of mankind.

    This was, essentially "what it took" to win WW2, an immense warscape which demanded TOTAL WAR to win, a concept even Germany did not realise until 1944.

    The entire apparatus of the state had to be employed, Britain, literally sacrificed itself to defeat Hitler.

    I hope this may help explain why the FINAL ACT of war preparation could only be entered upon when it was clear that there was NO possible alternative, at the time you speak of, no such certainty existed. It was not until about 1934 that we committed to the potentiality of this level of utter sacrifice, Chamberlain carried out phase 1, which was a managable re-armament which could be reversible, i.e. could be carried out withot the utter destruction of the entire empire and state gold reserves, he also carried out, aspects of Phase 2, requiring that those with gold assets register them with the state.

    Afterwards, Churchill carried out phase 2, the required dissolution of the entire Gold assets of the British Empire.

    This was THE largest single asset movement in the entire known history of mankind. War, once it reached this technological level, was no thing to be taken flippantly.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/2018110049449656323
    Indeed. Perhaps there’s a modern parallel, of a country having to sell most of its gold reserves in order to fund a war..?

    https://www.kitco.com/news/article/2025-11-28/russias-central-bank-forced-sell-gold-reserves-cover-budget-support-ruble

    At least the British can say they were on the right side in WWII.
    The Russian plan was the same as Germany in WWII - loot its conquests. So far that's failed.
    Had they conquered Ukraine rapidly, the gain would have been enormous.

    Britain in WWII, of course, had no such plan or option.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,691
    edited 11:59AM
    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    Fewer Sir Humphreys getting in the way of the government implementing their manifesto, and more on the front lines in public-facing roles such as tax offices and job centres.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,453
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Markets are a big sea of red this morning, are we going to get the long-awaited correction after last year’s crazy gains in stocks and commodities?

    It's interesting that the company that delivered AI's first big moment is looking like the first domino and may take Oracle down with them and is making MS wobble quite badly for the first time I've seen in decades.
    It's starting to look as though the software side of this has plenty (too much ?) competition for them all to fund the (much more defensible) hardware manufacturing.

    China replicating western efforts isn't helping either.
    China are I suspect ahead of the US on AI - after all they have more people working on it.

    I suspect we will see a couple of interesting models from china in the next couple of weeks leading up to the Chinese new year
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Battlebus said:

    ... When did Sterling lose it 'reserve currency' crown to the US? And how long did the switch take?

    I think it was the first half of the 20th century, but where within that I don't know.

    [EDIT: If you want a single year, Perplexity.ai says Bretton Woods in 1944, but the loss of reserve currency status was a process not an event and stretched from 1930s devaluations, 1944 Bretton Woods, 1971 Nixon Shock, through to 1972–1973 shift to floating exchange rates]

    Two word answer: Bretton Woods.

    Edit: your edit hit first.
    Or three - World War Two.

    To win WW2, the British Empire liquidated its entire gold reserves, those who understand know what that means, it essentially means you are mortgaging your entire nation and empire.

    This, in the long term lost Britain its empire, bankrupted its people and led to the only recourse being a post-war loan from the USA to just continue existence which was only paid off in 2006.

    We had to take out the loan because in 1945, we needed Lend-Lease just to get food, after VE-Day, the Americans (unexpectedly) stopped lend-lease, even though we needed it to eat, thus necessitating the enormous bank loans, we entered 1946, being THE most indebted nation in the entire modern history of mankind.

    This was, essentially "what it took" to win WW2, an immense warscape which demanded TOTAL WAR to win, a concept even Germany did not realise until 1944.

    The entire apparatus of the state had to be employed, Britain, literally sacrificed itself to defeat Hitler.

    I hope this may help explain why the FINAL ACT of war preparation could only be entered upon when it was clear that there was NO possible alternative, at the time you speak of, no such certainty existed. It was not until about 1934 that we committed to the potentiality of this level of utter sacrifice, Chamberlain carried out phase 1, which was a managable re-armament which could be reversible, i.e. could be carried out withot the utter destruction of the entire empire and state gold reserves, he also carried out, aspects of Phase 2, requiring that those with gold assets register them with the state.

    Afterwards, Churchill carried out phase 2, the required dissolution of the entire Gold assets of the British Empire.

    This was THE largest single asset movement in the entire known history of mankind. War, once it reached this technological level, was no thing to be taken flippantly.

    https://x.com/CalumDouglas1/status/2018110049449656323
    We didn't need Lend-Lease to eat.

    After VJ day, the US shut down the supply of *weapons*. The terms of Lend-Lease were - either send the material surviving back, or junk it. Orders in progress were cancelled.

    If we wanted to keep the material, it was offered to be sold for 10% of the price. The US further offered to lend the money to buy at *below market rate*.

    That is why the loans lasted so long. They were at a rate of interest below prevailing lending rates. Paying them off was a bit performative, by Brown.


    The reason of this, was the assumption that(by nearly everyone) that the world was in a race to get the economy back from military to civilian work. And that, after WWII, surplus military material had been dumped on the market, collapsing several industries. So the US shutdown much of armaments production and pivoted with extreme speed to civilian work.

    After the war, the UK pretty much bankrupted itself, in a series of loans from the US, which were used for current spending/and some rather useless efforts (such as supporting Sterling at an un-sustainable rate), rather than investment.

    This wasn't about Lend-Lease.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,387
    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Why? It's a very white, well-off, property-owning (73%), centrist sort of place. What do Reform offer them?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    Yes - the top level are part of the NU10K. The NU10K is about top jobs. The level at which grotesque failure is rewarded by another job.

    The rest of civil service are as much the problem as the bloke who checks wheel nuts on the Tesla Model 3 line on the morning shift is responsible for Elon Musk's behaviour - it's nothing to do with them.

    Note that the civil servants, below the top, face disciplinary hearings, sacking etc for misconduct.

    This is, perhaps, the defining characteristic of the NU10K. Accountability is for little people.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,285
    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    How many Permanent Secretaries visited Epstein Island? How many are mentioned in the files?

    It's quite a leap.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Eabhal said:

    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    How many Permanent Secretaries visited Epstein Island? How many are mentioned in the files?

    It's quite a leap.
    How many permanent secretaries covered up for those who did visit the island? Not such a big leap, is it?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,255
    I don't think this line will hold from Labour. It's a question of Mandelson's actions, not his associations.

    https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/2018288120534274185

    Labour is now confirming that discipliniary action against Lord Mandelson 'was underway prior to his resignation' - the inference very much that he was pushed rather than went of own volition

    'It is right that Peter Mandelson is no longer a member of the Labour Party. Disciplinary action was underway prior to his resignation.

    'Jeffrey Epstein’s heinous crimes destroyed the lives of so many women and girls, and our thoughts remain with his victims'
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    If I had the answer I'd be trying to do something about it. I have done my bit trying to change the culture within the places I've worked. Though the chances of anyone in politics listening to an old woman about anything approximate to zero, as I have been saying for years.

    Why do you think it has taken this long to listen to what women have been saying about this? Or why women are not listened to on any other topic affecting them? This forum has not been innocent in that regard either.

    Reform is part of the same rotten cabal not a fresh broom. The Greens are batshit insane, have little regard for the law and view women as second class citizens not entitled to their rights. Their leader - who has never taken drink or drugs - decided, while stone cold sober, that he could use hypnosis to enlarge their breasts. This is nota serious person. The Tories are boneless.

    The chances of change being for the better are not high. I am not optimistic. Labour could have started the process but with a leader steeped in disingenuousness, dishonesty and a joyless illiberal authoritarianism and lacking judgment or, seemingly, any feel for the country he governs, it has missed its chance - and may have made matters worse.
    It comes down to applying the same standards of ethics, morality, rewards and penalties at the top of organisations as we demand of the bottom.

    We have, finally, moved to a world where senior NHS managers, who do things like conduct illegal campaigns of harassment against whistleblower, will be struck of the register and can't just *get another job as an NHS manager*. That's good. A start.

    The case in point, today - Mandy - if a more junior person was being recruited, multiple resignations for ethics violations would make getting a job next to impossible.

    For roles far below the level that Mandy was recruited for, the security services would build a life history detailing everything. I've had friends go for such jobs - got the calls from nice people asking about stuff 20 or 30 years back. Was this done? Who read the result, if it was?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,285
    edited 12:15PM
    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    How many Permanent Secretaries visited Epstein Island? How many are mentioned in the files?

    It's quite a leap.
    How many permanent secretaries covered up for those who did visit the island? Not such a big leap, is it?
    Just think it's quite funny it took you two comments to find the real villains of the piece. Plenty of problems with the civil service but I'm not convinced Epstein is a big one.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,231
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    How many Permanent Secretaries visited Epstein Island? How many are mentioned in the files?

    It's quite a leap.
    How many permanent secretaries covered up for those who did visit the island? Not such a big leap, is it?
    Just think it's quite funny it took you two comments to find the real villains of the piece. Plenty of problems with the civil service but I'm not convinced Epstein is a big one.
    Or maybe that's just what you decided to pick out of what I said? I pointed to a class of unaccountable and untouchable politicians, civil servants and executives. That you seem to have latched on to just one of the three groups is on you, not me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,366

    Mandelson was in the habit of forwarding emails from people like Jeremy Heywood to Epstein.

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/2018250218655851006

    A good principle of sending any email is that it will get back to the people you'd least like to see it, and thus should be phrased accordingly.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,520
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    'Untouchable and above the law'. We live in a country which recognises the separation of powers as between executive, legislature and judiciary/law enforcement. We see in the USA very clearly what is happening when this is dissolved in corruption.

    No-one from you local shop lifter up to the very top wishes to be found out and made liable in any way for what they do wrong. I don't. If I park for 10 minutes without paying I like to get away with it.

    The only bodies on earth that can enforce the genuine separation of powers in respect of calling the most powerful to account are the law enforcement agencies, police and others, CPS, lawyers and the courts. If they don't do it, no-one can. If they don't do it, we like the USA don't have a genuine separation of powers.

    There is, human nature being what it is, no chance that the executive and legislature will act to put this right as against itself. The use of powers already existing is the only way to render those 'untouchable and above the law' properly accountable.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,366
    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    And I thought Rory Bremner's impression of him as the Prince of Darkness was a joke.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 133,581
    edited 12:24PM
    Battlebus said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Why? It's a very white, well-off, property-owning (73%), centrist sort of place. What do Reform offer them?
    Reform are now the leading party of the right in polls, indeed the first placed party in most polls.

    If Reform slipped back Hutton would go Tory again but for now swing voters and most rightwingers are going Reform
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,495
    IanB2 said:

    Mandleson's striking amnesia would have made him a shoo-in to be a witness at the Subpostmasters' inquiry

    You're too harsh. I can't remember anyone giving me $75K either.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,990

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    If I had the answer I'd be trying to do something about it. I have done my bit trying to change the culture within the places I've worked. Though the chances of anyone in politics listening to an old woman about anything approximate to zero, as I have been saying for years.

    Why do you think it has taken this long to listen to what women have been saying about this? Or why women are not listened to on any other topic affecting them? This forum has not been innocent in that regard either.

    Reform is part of the same rotten cabal not a fresh broom. The Greens are batshit insane, have little regard for the law and view women as second class citizens not entitled to their rights. Their leader - who has never taken drink or drugs - decided, while stone cold sober, that he could use hypnosis to enlarge their breasts. This is nota serious person. The Tories are boneless.

    The chances of change being for the better are not high. I am not optimistic. Labour could have started the process but with a leader steeped in disingenuousness, dishonesty and a joyless illiberal authoritarianism and lacking judgment or, seemingly, any feel for the country he governs, it has missed its chance - and may have made matters worse.
    To be fair, some at least of this country's problems are down to a woman....... Margaret Thatcher.


    (Runs, ducks, hides!)
    Yes - a point I made back in ....ooh look ..... January 2017 - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/01/20/cyclefree-asks-are-banks-the-new-unions/.

    Started by Thatcher and continued & expanded by Blair. And now Starmer & Reeves want to repeat the mistake re the City because in the intervening 30 years no-one has come up with any new thinking.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,453

    Mandelson was in the habit of forwarding emails from people like Jeremy Heywood to Epstein.

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/2018250218655851006

    A good principle of sending any email is that it will get back to the people you'd least like to see it, and thus should be phrased accordingly.
    Earlier today we saw the damning email but couldn’t 100% confirm who it came from (albeit it was obvious).

    The reply gave the game away and I think confirms the Official Secrets Act was broken
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,366
    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Eabhal said:

    Stereodog said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    In my experience, people who want to do away with civil servants are also the kind of people who complain if they can't get through to someone from HMRC on the phone. The vast majority of civil servants work for moderate wages to try and deliver the public services that everyone else takes for granted. Perhaps you mean just the permanent secretaries and Non Execs?
    How many Permanent Secretaries visited Epstein Island? How many are mentioned in the files?

    It's quite a leap.
    How many permanent secretaries covered up for those who did visit the island? Not such a big leap, is it?
    Just think it's quite funny it took you two comments to find the real villains of the piece. Plenty of problems with the civil service but I'm not convinced Epstein is a big one.
    Or maybe that's just what you decided to pick out of what I said? I pointed to a class of unaccountable and untouchable politicians, civil servants and executives. That you seem to have latched on to just one of the three groups is on you, not me.
    I think a big part of the problem is labelling those who disagree with them as racists, thickos, lazy, uneducated etc. It enrages people.

    Actually, scratch that: a massive part.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    algarkirk said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    'Untouchable and above the law'. We live in a country which recognises the separation of powers as between executive, legislature and judiciary/law enforcement. We see in the USA very clearly what is happening when this is dissolved in corruption.

    No-one from you local shop lifter up to the very top wishes to be found out and made liable in any way for what they do wrong. I don't. If I park for 10 minutes without paying I like to get away with it.

    The only bodies on earth that can enforce the genuine separation of powers in respect of calling the most powerful to account are the law enforcement agencies, police and others, CPS, lawyers and the courts. If they don't do it, no-one can. If they don't do it, we like the USA don't have a genuine separation of powers.

    There is, human nature being what it is, no chance that the executive and legislature will act to put this right as against itself. The use of powers already existing is the only way to render those 'untouchable and above the law' properly accountable.

    In this county, a Judge, ruling on part of the fallout of the Kids Company charity collapse, ruled as follows -

    Holding the legally liable trusties of the charity legally liable for the legal liabilities they freely took on would be unfair. Since they were busy people. Important people. Top people. And if held liable, it would be really difficult for charities to recruit trustees of that ilk.

    I compare that with the people I know who run charities - small ones. I recall one annual meeting, where a trustee (with especial interest in finance) proudly announced that, working with the treasurer, they had got within £5 of reconciling everything in the accounts.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,990

    Mandelson was in the habit of forwarding emails from people like Jeremy Heywood to Epstein.

    https://x.com/danneidle/status/2018250218655851006

    A good principle of sending any email is that it will get back to the people you'd least like to see it, and thus should be phrased accordingly.
    Some of those emails appear to have been sent to a personal email address and forwarded on from there.

    Why were they not caught by any half-way IT system? This is basic stuff. Utterly negligent if government IT systems allowed emails to be sent out like this.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,387
    HYUFD said:

    Battlebus said:

    HYUFD said:

    viewcode said:

    ...my daughter was telling me that all her friends (who mostly voted LD) are all now planning to vote Conservative in Brentwood and Ongar to keep Reform out...

    You mean they...looked back in Ongar?

    B)

    And found an Oasis of conservatism.
    Ongar will definitely go Reform regardless, Reform won 77% of the vote in an Ongar Town Council election last year. The same likely goes for North Weald and much of the rural part of the seat. However Brentwood itself has mostly LD and a few Labour councillors with Tory councillors in suburban Hutton so that is where the Tories will pick up tactical votes (albeit Reform won 45% in a Hutton district council by election last year too with the Tories second)
    Why? It's a very white, well-off, property-owning (73%), centrist sort of place. What do Reform offer them?
    Reform are now the leading party of the right in polls, indeed the first placed party in most polls.

    If Reform slipped back Hutton would go Tory again but for now swing voters and most rightwingers are going Reform
    But what do Reform offer them?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,588

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I'm glad that someone has mentioned the leaks of confidential information to Epstein. Misconduct at an absolute minimum. But it could potentially also be the passing on of unpublished price sensitive information - a criminal offence - and if Epstein or others traded on the basis of such information that would be insider dealing. It is potentially incredibly serious.

    I was doing quite a few leak inquiries around this time and if government was involved it was pretty obvious that many of the leaks came from it - and to a few favoured journalists. There are a few names I'd be very interested to see if they appear in these files.

    Mandelson should be expelled from the Lords. Starmer is weak in not having announced this already and in allowing him to resign rather than expelling him.

    I think Mandleson probably has far too much dirt on everyone in the echelons of power in this country to be deposed in such a manner. His friendship with Epstein who looks as though he was working as a triple agent for the CIA, Mosad and the Russians probably came with the benefits of having all of these little facts about the people he could use against them.
    Sweep the whole rotten cabal away. It's not as if they've been any good at their day jobs.
    I don't disagree with you and have been saying as much for the better part of 10 years. We have a class of politicians, civil servants and executives who exist in a separate world in which they are untouchable and above the law. If you can figure out a way to sweep them away without setting the country down the path to fascism I'm all ears. I think a Tory/Reform coalition might be the only realistic way to get change which sounds ridiculous but the time of centrist dads just knuckling under has allowed the rot to fester and take over. There are so many scandals for which these same self satisfied centrist dads tell the rest of us to keep quiet while protecting the powerful people who perpetrate and cover up serious crimes.

    The system is broken and the smug centrists are all around us telling us that it isn't. Attempting to convince everyone that the sky is green because admitting that they've been wrong about everything for the past 20 years is too much to handle.
    Who knew that the centrist dads wielded such unbridled power.
    The irony is that the people who have mostly been running the country the last 15 years are the Conservatives and ex-Conservatives now running Reform. Why on earth is that seen as the only realistic solution? Madness.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 60,423
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Mandleson's striking amnesia would have made him a shoo-in to be a witness at the Subpostmasters' inquiry

    You're too harsh. I can't remember anyone giving me $75K either.
    Why would I remember even remember people tipping me 75K Pu? Fiddly small change.... (https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Triganic_Pu)
  • TazTaz Posts: 24,434
    A further arrest for additional alleged offences of former New Labour star, Mayor and MP, Dan Norris.

    https://x.com/talktv/status/2018284735122870529?s=61
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