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Sir Keir Starmer continues to use humour – politicalbetting.com

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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305
    Scott_xP said:

    @PeterStefanovi2

    BREAKING: The UK is sending a single military officer to Greenland at the request of Denmark to participate in a multi-nation exercise

    Oh for fuck's sake. :(
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,011
    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @PeterStefanovi2

    BREAKING: The UK is sending a single military officer to Greenland at the request of Denmark to participate in a multi-nation exercise

    Oh for fuck's sake. :(
    What else did you expect from Starmer? This is him down to a tee.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 57,313

    Iranian airspace closed.

    The Donald might be making his move.

    Trump needs to overthrow the Ayatollahs to have a chance in the mid term elections.
    But what about the ICE-atollahs?
  • Andy_JS said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @PeterStefanovi2

    BREAKING: The UK is sending a single military officer to Greenland at the request of Denmark to participate in a multi-nation exercise

    Oh for fuck's sake. :(
    What else did you expect from Starmer? This is him down to a tee.
    I'd expect him to conscript Burnham
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,439
    Given the speculation, not without some supporting indications, that a US strike package is on its way to Iran, it isnt a shock but it is a little surprising if Trump has ordered it.

    The guy likes the idea of doing something decisive, history defining. The Iranian government appears to have gotten the better of the protests over last few days, even though they are ongoing, which may have made action a day late and a dollar short if its not overwhelming and sustained.

    If the US does not go for a assassination strategy, and they have circulated their requests for intelligence widely to 3rd parties, there would be two devastating targets, Bandar Abbas and Kharg, Those would be a piece of piss to hit. Whether they'd go down that economic destruction to kill the regime is high tariff stuff in terms of potential impact and reaction.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929

    Cicero said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @davekeating.substack.com‬

    🇩🇰🇬🇱foreign ministers speaking now in Washington following their very short meeting in the White House.

    They look shell shocked.

    "Our perspectives continue to differ."

    https://bsky.app/profile/davekeating.substack.com/post/3mcfqwgglg22z

    The continued failure of the European political classes to realise that things have fundamentally changed is extraordinary.

    You either stand up to Trump and tell him to fuck off. Or you do what he says. There is no 'negotiation'.
    What, so he's not 'transactional' or a 'dealmaker'?
    No he's a c**t
    Talking of which, and I have a multiple choice question for you all. Donald Trump has demanded that the DOJ investigate and prosecute:

    a) Officer Jonathan Ross?

    Or

    b) Renee Nicole Good's wife?

    I am reminded of that infamous line in R. Dean Taylor's Indiana Wants Me.
    Genuine question - was that Trump himself, or was it his stooges at the Injustice Dept. “Working Towards The Leader”?
    Fuxake! Do I have to do your research for you?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/us/prosecutors-doj-resignation-ice-shooting.html

    So technically you are right and I am wrong. This has absolutely nothing to do with Donald Trump. He is a mere bystander...
    It’s important to understand how such things work - it’s an old, old story. The Big Cheese makes his feelings known. And/or the underlings try and please him by doing something they know he’ll like.

    That way the underlings are deniable if it goes wrong.

    “If only the King/Emperor/etc knew what they do in his name…”
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929

    Iranian airspace closed.

    The Donald might be making his move.

    Trump needs to overthrow the Ayatollahs to have a chance in the mid term elections.
    True - he’ll need their advice on election rigging. For a start.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723
    Scott_xP said:

    @PeterStefanovi2

    BREAKING: The UK is sending a single military officer to Greenland at the request of Denmark to participate in a multi-nation exercise

    You missed the best bit. In the comments below there are some excellent suggestions as to which officer we should send.

    https://bsky.app/profile/peterstefanovic.bsky.social/post/3mcfxynthu227

    I am torn between Colonel Sharpe or Commander Bond, or better still Captain Blackadder. He would have a cunning plan...
  • Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,347

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    In retrospect that is so obvious.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,770
    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    When the country is three trillion in debt nobody sees a reason why the £287m for their pet project shouldn't be spent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929
    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    3.3km of cables will be buried in this project.

    £86k - a meter
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 36,455
    Jamie Raskin is a f*****' star!
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,812

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
    It rather saddens me that something like Douglas Campbell's "Secret Society" wouldn't even be commissioned now. Not sure how legit this copy of the episode is - but it keeps coming to mind :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuOrKO3_doI

    "BBC 2 | Secret Society | The Association of Chief Police Officers

    ACPO have been making up their own law and policy. This episode investigates the Association of Chief Police Officers and how Government policy and actions are determined in the fields of law and order."
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,170
    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    A hell of a lot of money, but I am compelled to point out the standard dodgy comparison of capital and yearly costs in the second paragraph. Tut tut.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929
    edited January 14
    ohnotnow said:

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
    It rather saddens me that something like Douglas Campbell's "Secret Society" wouldn't even be commissioned now. Not sure how legit this copy of the episode is - but it keeps coming to mind :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuOrKO3_doI

    "BBC 2 | Secret Society | The Association of Chief Police Officers

    ACPO have been making up their own law and policy. This episode investigates the Association of Chief Police Officers and how Government policy and actions are determined in the fields of law and order."
    ACPoo, under New Labour, conducted an illegal campaign of surveillance and infiltration of dangerous groups such as student and hippies climbing trees to protest about development.

    The ensuing court cases are still going on today.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 5,812

    ohnotnow said:

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
    It rather saddens me that something like Douglas Campbell's "Secret Society" wouldn't even be commissioned now. Not sure how legit this copy of the episode is - but it keeps coming to mind :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuOrKO3_doI

    "BBC 2 | Secret Society | The Association of Chief Police Officers

    ACPO have been making up their own law and policy. This episode investigates the Association of Chief Police Officers and how Government policy and actions are determined in the fields of law and order."
    ACPoo, under New Labour, conducted an illegal campaign of surveillance and infiltration of dangerous groups such as student and hippies climbing trees to protest about development.

    The ensuing court cases are still going on today.
    I have a faint memory of maybe a Timewatch documentary featuring someone who - as a kid - had waited around to see Harold Wilson at some local event. Then discovered their whole life had been monitored by the spooks as a 'person of interest'.

    Another thing I reflect on when I think about the effectiveness or not of the 'Prevent' programme and related 'spookery'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368

    Iranian airspace closed.

    The Donald might be making his move.

    Trump needs to overthrow the Ayatollahs to have a chance in the mid term elections.
    I imagine he has a backup plan in place for the latter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368

    Amy Klobuchar
    @amyklobuchar

    The administration is sending 1,000 more ICE agents to Minnesota. That's over 3,000 federal agents flooding our streets, almost triple the combined police forces of Minneapolis and St. Paul.

    ICE is sowing chaos in our communities. They need to get off our streets immediately.

    https://x.com/amyklobuchar/status/2011496210566111513

    How many illegals can there possibly be in Minnesota?!

    I know this is in actuality about more than that, but still.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368
    Pro_Rata said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @PeterStefanovi2

    BREAKING: The UK is sending a single military officer to Greenland at the request of Denmark to participate in a multi-nation exercise

    A token multinational force that the USA have to cross the Rubicon of actually shooting at or capturing raises the political risk of them acting, so I think this is sensible.

    If they contest against other NATO troops we will be less able to brush it all under the carpet. Hopefully.
    If they are truly committed nothing will dissuade them, and in practice not much would happen in the short term I am sure, which is part of their reasoning, but that is not to say such things are meaningless. The Americans are poisoning their reputation among allies, and we can have a chuckle about how they don't give two shits about that because they're a superpower, and that is true, but even an abused dog eventually bites, and long term that kind of dismissive or aggressive posture towards 'friends' will see changes happen.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368

    How many 16 and 17 year olds drink alcohol free "booze"?

    The proposed ban sounds absolutely fucking pointless to me

    It sounds mental to me. Even if it was a gateway to real booze, which I doubt, and even if they can craft a ban properly, which I doubt, once they are adults it'll be up to them, and the plan is to make them all voters at 16 so can we not trust them to resist it?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,170
    kle4 said:

    Amy Klobuchar
    @amyklobuchar

    The administration is sending 1,000 more ICE agents to Minnesota. That's over 3,000 federal agents flooding our streets, almost triple the combined police forces of Minneapolis and St. Paul.

    ICE is sowing chaos in our communities. They need to get off our streets immediately.

    https://x.com/amyklobuchar/status/2011496210566111513

    How many illegals can there possibly be in Minnesota?!

    I know this is in actuality about more than that, but still.
    https://www.axios.com/local/twin-cities/2025/08/25/minnesota-unauthorized-immigrant-population-pew
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,653

    Nigelb said:

    Dear god, can we get HYUFD back to talk about roundabouts ?

    An entire thread on a joke Starmer told is more than a chap can bear.

    As TSE suggested earlier our prim wallflowers weren't quite so proper when it came to Penny Mordant's "cock" joke.
    Mrs Flatlander's explanation for Starmer is that he's had Thick of It style rants from his own advisors and that perhaps this is their favourite analogy.

    So when floundering, he found himself using the same phrase.

    It seemed out of character, whereas Penny was entirely in character.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    The PM just has to hold out until 2027 and then things will be easier (I jest, the HoL is not his biggest problem)

    The Observer's Whitehall Editor, Cat Neilan, recently cited my analysis for Hogan Lovells, projecting that the UK government could eliminate the risk of defeat in the House of Lords by 2027.

    There are no limits on the Prime Minister's appointment powers, and the extent of No. 10's ambitions are unclear. Media and public scrutiny could influence how far things go, but both are currently quite subdued. The Lords’ ability to delay bills provides some leverage, potentially encouraging the government to act reasonably if cooler heads prevail.

    Key stats:
    * Since the General Election, the government has been defeated 55 times in 119 Lords divisions, consistent with the previous Conservative government’s experience.
    * However, defeats are set to reduce significantly from 2026.
    * The Hereditary Peers Bill, progressing through the Lords, will remove 88 peers by this session’s end (only 4 are Labour), reducing defeats by 15% and lowering the average majority against the government from 75 to 55.
    * The Government has also been steadily increasing the number of Labour peers. There has been a 36 net gain since the General Election (45 new Labour peers but some are replacing retirees etc)
    * If appointments continue at this pace in 2025-26, defeats could halve. By 2026-27, they may vanish entirely, reducing the ability of the Lords to ask the Government to 'think again'

    * https://nitter.poast.org/nmdacosta/status/1996378088754594241#m

    The Lords have at least been overegging it, arguably.

    There have been a couple where they have voted down Manifesto Commitments aiui (Employment Rights Bill, Lords Reform), and there has been some dancing on pinheads to support non-violation of the Salisbury Convention.

    I'm nuancing this as I'm not totally over the detail, but I have seen a couple of suggestions that the Salisbury Convention be put into law, and precedures revised to make sure it is respected.
    A risk for a Lords that gets too pushy, to be sure, though with the hereditaries going maybe the rest think it time to formalise that up in any case, so don't see it as a concern.

    The government is also seemingly trying to treat the private member's bill like a manifesto commitment with the hyperbole about how it must not be delayed. I'm very sure some Lords are trying to wreck it, but whilst there are good reasons to do such things as private bills that comes with some downsides in terms of parliamentary time and, indeed, convention expectations.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368
    HYUFD said:

    nico67 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @VeraMBergen

    “EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas privately told lawmakers the state of the world meant it might be a “good moment” to start drinking.”

    https://x.com/VeraMBergen/status/2011534279466160148?s=20

    That's dry January gone then.
    I’ve started already !

    Greenland needs to hold firm and dare Trump to take military action . Although the GOP have generally been a spineless bunch this issue is one that might see a change there . You’ll still have the Trump fellators that will go along with it but I’d hope there’d be enough to say enough is enough .
    Trump wants to buy Greenland, he doesn't actually want to invade it (which polls show over 3/4 of Americans oppose), that is just a typical Trump ruse so offering Greenlanders some billions to become American looks reasonable.

    The classic 'ignore everything he is saying' tactic, even though plenty of times he demonstrates he means what he says. I'm sure he would rather buy, and many many people privately will be telling him not to invade, but the very things some people like him for is he contemplates doing what others will not, so it is clearly not off the table.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 5,653
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    A hell of a lot of money, but I am compelled to point out the standard dodgy comparison of capital and yearly costs in the second paragraph. Tut tut.
    Aren't these pylons across an estuary? I can't imagine maintenance is fun.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368

    ohnotnow said:

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
    It rather saddens me that something like Douglas Campbell's "Secret Society" wouldn't even be commissioned now. Not sure how legit this copy of the episode is - but it keeps coming to mind :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuOrKO3_doI

    "BBC 2 | Secret Society | The Association of Chief Police Officers

    ACPO have been making up their own law and policy. This episode investigates the Association of Chief Police Officers and how Government policy and actions are determined in the fields of law and order."
    ACPoo, under New Labour, conducted an illegal campaign of surveillance and infiltration of dangerous groups such as student and hippies climbing trees to protest about development.

    The ensuing court cases are still going on today.
    Considering how politically popular protesting development is I'm amazed such people were targeted. I guess when it is the more active kind of protest the authorities take a dimmer view.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 100,368
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @davekeating.substack.com‬

    🇩🇰🇬🇱foreign ministers speaking now in Washington following their very short meeting in the White House.

    They look shell shocked.

    "Our perspectives continue to differ."

    https://bsky.app/profile/davekeating.substack.com/post/3mcfqwgglg22z

    Trump is going to seize Greenland. European leaders need to get their backsides out of that Egyptian river and decide what they're going to do about that.
    What they are going to do about it is absolutely fuck all.
    I wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. If they were going to mount a credible defence of Greenland the logistics for it would be underway by now. But all that's happened is a token force of Danish troops deployed.

    It really is quite disheartening. Europe deserves its reputation as a bloc too sacred to use force, even when their own territory is being invaded.
    You don't need a credible defence - none exists. You just need to put enough troops on so there is a chance some aggro squaddie from Grimsby [insert European equivalents] actually takes a shot at them. That is possibly the only thing that might deter Trump.
    And the threat is a simple one: if you invade Greenland, then the chances of Europeans ever buying American products is basically zero.
    Also NATO will be dissolved and American bases in Europe (and the UK) will be closed.
    Countries leaving NATO would be just what Vance and co want of course.

    And so soon after new members too.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305
    edited 1:23AM
    Geoff Marshall went on the Caledonian Sleeper in December: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBiosOsP8E

    I went on it in September. I may have mentioned that. B)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305
    George Galloway is staying in Malaysia and is not returning to the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8wE-sn1b5k
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,285
    Sen Josh Hawley, asking a doctor “Can men get pregnant?” 12 times and not getting a straight answer.

    https://x.com/xx_xyathletics/status/2011499246802125221
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,894
    edited 5:09AM
    So has “help is on the way” now turned into merely “you won’t be killed (at least just yet)”?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 62,880
    Sandpit said:

    Sen Josh Hawley, asking a doctor “Can men get pregnant?” 12 times and not getting a straight answer.

    https://x.com/xx_xyathletics/status/2011499246802125221

    You've never been to The Pregnant Man pub, then?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,151
    Sandpit said:

    Sen Josh Hawley, asking a doctor “Can men get pregnant?” 12 times and not getting a straight answer.

    https://x.com/xx_xyathletics/status/2011499246802125221

    The consequences of giving a clear answer are that she's seen to have taken a side in a cultural debate, and thus impact her professionally and socially- so she doesn't.

    She knows men can't get pregnant. But many won't ever admit that until it's safe to say so.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,260

    Sandpit said:

    Sen Josh Hawley, asking a doctor “Can men get pregnant?” 12 times and not getting a straight answer.

    https://x.com/xx_xyathletics/status/2011499246802125221

    The consequences of giving a clear answer are that she's seen to have taken a side in a cultural debate, and thus impact her professionally and socially- so she doesn't.

    She knows men can't get pregnant. But many won't ever admit that until it's safe to say so.
    It's every man's right to have babies.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBAx8jbYNs
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723
    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,035
    Sandpit said:

    Sen Josh Hawley, asking a doctor “Can men get pregnant?” 12 times and not getting a straight answer.

    https://x.com/xx_xyathletics/status/2011499246802125221

    He should have answered, 'Trump has stuffed you good and proper, so yes.'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 77,035
    viewcode said:

    George Galloway is staying in Malaysia and is not returning to the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8wE-sn1b5k

    That is a terrible tragedy. The people of Malaysia have my deepest sympathy.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,665
    X
    Sam Coates Sky@SamCoatesSky·52m
    EXCLUSIVE I'm "ashamed" of Sir Keir Starmer, says rebel Labour MP - as the row over justice reforms escalates. Karl Turner tells me "I'm not going to be bullied" and attacks "pal" Starmer and called the justice secretary "lazy" as we visit one of London's busiest courts.

    This is the most cross I've ever seen a mainstream Labour MP against Starmer.

    But ministers are doubling down, not backing down, vowing to strip the right to a jury from those already facing trial to cut the backlog.

    We saw broken justice at Snarkesbrook Crown Court, talked to the government, rebels, judges and lawyers.

    Watch our deep dive

    Film by @JoeCookJ


    https://news.sky.com/story/im-asham

    https://x.com/SamCoatesSky/status/2011678884991762903
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,151
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,151
    fitalass said:

    X
    Sam Coates Sky@SamCoatesSky·52m
    EXCLUSIVE I'm "ashamed" of Sir Keir Starmer, says rebel Labour MP - as the row over justice reforms escalates. Karl Turner tells me "I'm not going to be bullied" and attacks "pal" Starmer and called the justice secretary "lazy" as we visit one of London's busiest courts.

    This is the most cross I've ever seen a mainstream Labour MP against Starmer.

    But ministers are doubling down, not backing down, vowing to strip the right to a jury from those already facing trial to cut the backlog.

    We saw broken justice at Snarkesbrook Crown Court, talked to the government, rebels, judges and lawyers.

    Watch our deep dive

    Film by @JoeCookJ


    https://news.sky.com/story/im-asham

    https://x.com/SamCoatesSky/status/2011678884991762903

    Ministers will double down until they back down.

    And then this will be Starmer's 14th U-turn.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,255
    kle4 said:

    How many 16 and 17 year olds drink alcohol free "booze"?

    The proposed ban sounds absolutely fucking pointless to me

    It sounds mental to me. Even if it was a gateway to real booze, which I doubt, and even if they can craft a ban properly, which I doubt, once they are adults it'll be up to them, and the plan is to make them all voters at 16 so can we not trust them to resist it?
    Counter proposal: Send a six pack of stubbies to every sixteen year old on their birthday. Two at seventeen. Like the Scottish baby boxes, but more fun.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women, but what purpose is there in refusing to accept them as individuals with agency? Why not be courteous and kind about their lifestyle?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,715
    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,025
    I do wonder if Labour membership will be looking for someone who really pisses off Trump. Maybe Sadiq Khan is going to be the prince across the water who gets the job.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,260
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    An interesting (Western) view with its emphasis on individual rights. Contrast that to an Eastern viewpoint particularly in Asia where conformance is everything. Sometimes we have to recognise that our views are conditioned both by era (e.g. views on slavery) and location (western democracy).

    The present hiccup in the USA shows individualised democracy taken to some extreme lengths.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,151
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
  • eekeek Posts: 32,282
    edited 7:21AM

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    I like Eryri but that isn’t a justifiable use of money
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723
    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    An interesting (Western) view with its emphasis on individual rights. Contrast that to an Eastern viewpoint particularly in Asia where conformance is everything. Sometimes we have to recognise that our views are conditioned both by era (e.g. views on slavery) and location (western democracy).

    The present hiccup in the USA shows individualised democracy taken to some extreme lengths.
    Yes, and the general trend of Western thought over the centuries has been towards greater individual freedom, and away from the oppressive social conformity.that we used to have.

    I think that Eastern social norms are different historically, with roots in a desire for Confuscionist social order, but whether this is truly wanted by individuals is a different question. When given the opportunity of breaking free that desire for conformity is often obviously externally imposed. Take the endless inventive youth cults in Japan or Hong Kong for instance, or the 4B movement in Korea.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,260

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    This is/was my area - LV/MV with an occasional foray into HV. It's a very narrow base of expertise. If you are not doing HV in the UK, you'll be doing it in Malaysia or India or in one of the 'stans. They can command a premium as (working) infrastructure is key to economic development. Cut corners and you'll soon know it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,715
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    I like Eryri but that isn’t a justifiable use of money
    It's nearly three bat tunnels. And if one scrapes beneath the surface, there are probably loony regulations pushing the price up in this case too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723
    I am sure that the PB Cognescenti will be cheered this morning that the economy grew 0.3% in November.

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3mcgzmygjzu2y

    Didn't someone once condemn the "doomsters and gloomsters"?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723
    An interesting thought here:

    “Our findings tell us that young people’s choices around social media and gaming may be shaped by how they’re feeling but not necessarily the other way around,” said Prof Neil Humphrey, a co-author. “Rather than blaming technology itself, we need to pay attention to what young people are doing online, who they’re connecting with and how supported they feel in their daily lives.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2026/jan/14/social-media-time-does-not-increase-teenagers-mental-health-problems-study?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

  • CookieCookie Posts: 16,582
    Foss said:

    kle4 said:

    How many 16 and 17 year olds drink alcohol free "booze"?

    The proposed ban sounds absolutely fucking pointless to me

    It sounds mental to me. Even if it was a gateway to real booze, which I doubt, and even if they can craft a ban properly, which I doubt, once they are adults it'll be up to them, and the plan is to make them all voters at 16 so can we not trust them to resist it?
    Counter proposal: Send a six pack of stubbies to every sixteen year old on their birthday. Two at seventeen. Like the Scottish baby boxes, but more fun.
    Yes, if they can vote, they can drink.

    Whenever I try to buy alcohol free booze at the self service check outs it raises a flag for someone to check my age. I thought therefore a ban was still in place?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,285
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women, but what purpose is there in refusing to accept them as individuals with agency? Why not be courteous and kind about their lifestyle?
    So if her professional belief, as a gynecologist testifying as an expert before a Senata committee, is that yes, men can get pregnant, why won’t she say that when asked?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,231
    Foxy said:

    I am sure that the PB Cognescenti will be cheered this morning that the economy grew 0.3% in November.

    https://bsky.app/profile/financialtimes.com/post/3mcgzmygjzu2y

    Didn't someone once condemn the "doomsters and gloomsters"?

    That was Labour doomsters and gloomsters, talking the country down. Totally different.

    (Reality is that the random number generator continues to spit out numbers consistent with an average of 0.1 to 0.2% a month, with about 0.2% of noise either way. Over a year, 0.1% a month would be continued grey and 0.2% would be definite green shoots territory.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,715
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 8,170
    edited 7:41AM

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    Burying the cables means a tunnel, not just burying as we might think of it, and therefore a TBM:



    You can start to see how it adds up...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,042

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    I like Eryri but that isn’t a justifiable use of money
    It's nearly three bat tunnels. And if one scrapes beneath the surface, there are probably loony regulations pushing the price up in this case too.
    Yes. And they could probably get the Royal Engineers to do the job for a tenth as a contribution to new kit and money behind the mess bar. They would probably love blowing things up and burying the things.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,715
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    Burying the cables means a tunnel, not just burying as we might think of it, and therefore a TBM:



    You can start to see how it adds up...
    I don't see why it couldn't be a trench and then filled in over.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,255
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    Burying the cables means a tunnel, not just burying as we might think of it, and therefore a TBM:



    You can start to see how it adds up...
    The ones they buried on the east side of the Woodhead tunnel looked like cut and cover. They still built temp roads and everything tho.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,242
    My GP now has an 8am scramble for eConsult “places”. It’s a joke
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,130
    edited 7:51AM

    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    I like Eryri but that isn’t a justifiable use of money
    It's nearly three bat tunnels. And if one scrapes beneath the surface, there are probably loony regulations pushing the price up in this case too.
    I've actually cycled right past this work on Lon Las Cymru (absolutely stunning btw, Wales is gorgeous). The cost will come from getting it across the estuary here. Agree with everyone else that the benefits certainly do not outweigh the cost; I'd suggest the topography here makes the pylons relatively unobtrusive compared with other infrastructure (particularly in Scotland).

    It's something we could and should do as a much richer country - or perhaps if power was going in for the first time at a stretch. But the opportunity cost of £300 million is enormous. Just donate it to the John Muir Trust or equivalents instead if you're serious about landscape preservation.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,255
    Twenty two English councils ask for election delays: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7z892jzdeo

    Apparently most are labour-led
  • MelonBMelonB Posts: 16,686

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
    What does society gain by that, apart from an out-group to ostracise?
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,095
    carnforth said:

    Nigelb said:

    Can this country please get its shit together.

    Today I found out that Ofgem is spending £287 million – paid for by household electricity bills – to dismantle 10 pylons in Snowdonia & bury the cables.

    That's more than twice the annual budget of *all* national parks in Britain (which have budgets of £135m pa). Rather than burying pylons, we could spend that money far more effectively to protect nature, while reducing energy bills.

    Alternatively, about 3000 people live in the area. With the same budget, you could give every single one of them £100k, or pay for 3 years' worth of free school meals for every primary school kid in Wales.

    https://x.com/dc_lawrence/status/2011479928701677929

    The scandal to me is not that they're doing it, but that it's costing £287m. I admit to being a complete non-expert - not even a keen amateur, but 10% of that seems generous to me.
    Burying the cables means a tunnel, not just burying as we might think of it, and therefore a TBM:



    You can start to see how it adds up...
    Nice colours!!
    At least it'll be through rock, it'd be several times more expensive if it was clay. Don't envy national grid trying to explain that in the home counties.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,321
    edited 7:58AM
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    An interesting (Western) view with its emphasis on individual rights. Contrast that to an Eastern viewpoint particularly in Asia where conformance is everything. Sometimes we have to recognise that our views are conditioned both by era (e.g. views on slavery) and location (western democracy).

    The present hiccup in the USA shows individualised democracy taken to some extreme lengths.
    Yes, and the general trend of Western thought over the centuries has been towards greater individual freedom, and away from the oppressive social conformity.that we used to have.

    I think that Eastern social norms are different historically, with roots in a desire for Confuscionist social order, but whether this is truly wanted by individuals is a different question. When given the opportunity of breaking free that desire for conformity is often obviously externally imposed. Take the endless inventive youth cults in Japan or Hong Kong for instance, or the 4B movement in Korea.
    Human beings in most societies worldwide, are incredibly individualistic now, compared to our ancestors.

    Societies based upon low-productivity agriculture, could not survive, without people placing their family’s/village’s/clan’s survival, over and above their own individual wishes. Guarding against catastrophe made far more sense than trying to maximise profit.

    Individualism was for the 1%.

    That’s one reason why I’m such an enthusiast for the Industrial Revolution.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 59,285
    Foss said:

    Twenty two English councils ask for election delays: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7z892jzdeo

    Apparently most are labour-led

    Why isn’t this leading every news bulletin?

    Elections get postponed for war and pandemic, on a cross-party basis, not simply by request because the government is afraid of losing councils.
  • FossFoss Posts: 2,255
    Sandpit said:

    Foss said:

    Twenty two English councils ask for election delays: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7z892jzdeo

    Apparently most are labour-led

    Why isn’t this leading every news bulletin?

    Elections get postponed for war and pandemic, on a cross-party basis, not simply by request because the government is afraid of losing councils.
    To be fair, it’s currently the headline on the BBC News homepage.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 33,715
    MelonB said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
    What does society gain by that, apart from an out-group to ostracise?
    It is a necessary clarification if one is going to ban men from women's spaces, but retain the right of post-gender reassigment biological men to access these spaces - which I think is fair.

    It is not making anyone an 'out group', simply saying that people may choose to radically alter their appearance, but legal changes have a higher bar. It solves (imo) a lot of the current problems (though not sport) and is fair.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,242
    Sandpit said:

    Foss said:

    Twenty two English councils ask for election delays: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7z892jzdeo

    Apparently most are labour-led

    Why isn’t this leading every news bulletin?

    Elections get postponed for war and pandemic, on a cross-party basis, not simply by request because the government is afraid of losing councils.
    I see your man Trump is blaming Zelensky again for the war not being over
  • berberian_knowsberberian_knows Posts: 139
    edited 8:09AM
    Foxy said:

    Battlebus said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    An interesting (Western) view with its emphasis on individual rights. Contrast that to an Eastern viewpoint particularly in Asia where conformance is everything. Sometimes we have to recognise that our views are conditioned both by era (e.g. views on slavery) and location (western democracy).

    The present hiccup in the USA shows individualised democracy taken to some extreme lengths.
    Yes, and the general trend of Western thought over the centuries has been towards greater individual freedom, and away from the oppressive social conformity.that we used to have.

    I think that Eastern social norms are different historically, with roots in a desire for Confuscionist social order, but whether this is truly wanted by individuals is a different question. When given the opportunity of breaking free that desire for conformity is often obviously externally imposed. Take the endless inventive youth cults in Japan or Hong Kong for instance, or the 4B movement in Korea.
    A gynecologist who is terrified that giving the truthful answer to a senate committee will ruin her career - no "oppressive social conformity" there.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,929
    kle4 said:

    ohnotnow said:

    Guess who's National Police Chiefs Council lead on Professional Standards and Ethics?

    https://policepromotion.blog/2024/08/11/exclusive-interview-with-west-mids-chief-craig-guildford-qpm/

    As much as I think he should go I don't think the fundamental problem is essentially that of one individual. It's been clear nationwide since the aftermath of 7 October 2023 when police were taking down pictures of the hostages.
    It rather saddens me that something like Douglas Campbell's "Secret Society" wouldn't even be commissioned now. Not sure how legit this copy of the episode is - but it keeps coming to mind :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuOrKO3_doI

    "BBC 2 | Secret Society | The Association of Chief Police Officers

    ACPO have been making up their own law and policy. This episode investigates the Association of Chief Police Officers and how Government policy and actions are determined in the fields of law and order."
    ACPoo, under New Labour, conducted an illegal campaign of surveillance and infiltration of dangerous groups such as student and hippies climbing trees to protest about development.

    The ensuing court cases are still going on today.
    Considering how politically popular protesting development is I'm amazed such people were targeted. I guess when it is the more active kind of protest the authorities take a dimmer view.
    Apparently, ACPO went after the hippies smoking weed. While totally ignoring the head choppy types - who eventually did 7/11

    The cynical suggested that it was because undercover officers bigged up the threat - ‘cause Vanilla ISIS offer a lot less opportunities for casual sex and soft drugs while doing not much.

    Though it did metastasise into something darker with some groups. Trying to turn Fathers For Justice into a violent group, for example, because their goal* was getting political traction.

    *equality in enforcement of judicial decisions.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,290

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
    I’m sure these ‘biological’ women will be grateful for the endless stream of clarification and wisdom from PB ‘biological’ males. I mean, if they’re being told how to live their lives by blokes, what more evidence do they need that they’re really women.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 125,650

    NEW THREAD

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,403

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
    I’m sure these ‘biological’ women will be grateful for the endless stream of clarification and wisdom from PB ‘biological’ males. I mean, if they’re being told how to live their lives by blokes, what more evidence do they need that they’re really women.
    Good morning, everyone.

    You may as well assert that men know what makes someone a man, for all a snarky aside adds to a debate.

    F1: 11 days until the first test. Unusually in F1, this will be private. But I'm sure there'll be much murmuring.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,216
    Sandpit said:

    Foss said:

    Twenty two English councils ask for election delays: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd7z892jzdeo

    Apparently most are labour-led

    Why isn’t this leading every news bulletin?

    Elections get postponed for war and pandemic, on a cross-party basis, not simply by request because the government is afraid of losing councils.
    Time to dust down Brass Eye's "War" again?

    Susan Geckeloids seen in Burnley...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 57,216
    Bad day for Russia in Ukraine - 1150 men, 84 pieces of artillery no longer reporting for duty...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,290

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women
    Thank you.
    But what are your answers to the questions that I put afterwards?
    These women have not only retained their female sex organs, but have decided to fulfil their biological purpose as women. They have not had a gender reassignment, and for me, that doesn't meet the bar for society and the law to class them politely as male. That should be reserved for people who have undergone a surgical reassignment following a rigorous medical process.
    I’m sure these ‘biological’ women will be grateful for the endless stream of clarification and wisdom from PB ‘biological’ males. I mean, if they’re being told how to live their lives by blokes, what more evidence do they need that they’re really women.
    Good morning, everyone.

    You may as well assert that men know what makes someone a man, for all a snarky aside adds to a debate.

    F1: 11 days until the first test. Unusually in F1, this will be private. But I'm sure there'll be much murmuring.
    I’m suspicious of definitive assertions of what makes a man or a woman, though I suppose crowbarring some exciting F1 news into the ‘debate’ could be seen as a facet of a certain kind of maleness.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,836
    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    One of my female friends has labelled herself as "agender" precisely because women throughout her life have not accepted that she does not conform to traditional expressions of feminity - make-up, clothing and the like.

    The whole transgender thing looks to me a lot like a surrender to gender norms and societal hostility to social eccentricity. Instead of expanding the range of ways in which it is acceptable to be a man or a woman it narrows them.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,836
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    They are biologically women.

    If they weren't they wouldn't have a womb, nor could they conceive.

    No ifs, no buts.
    Certainly they are biologically women, but what purpose is there in refusing to accept them as individuals with agency? Why not be courteous and kind about their lifestyle?
    We can be courteous and kind when we relate to them as individuals, but we do not have to rewrite biology to accommodate their individual preferences.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305
    edited 9:07AM

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    One of my female friends has labelled herself as "agender" precisely because women throughout her life have not accepted that she does not conform to traditional expressions of feminity - make-up, clothing and the like.

    The whole transgender thing looks to me a lot like a surrender to gender norms and societal hostility to social eccentricity. Instead of expanding the range of ways in which it is acceptable to be a man or a woman it narrows them.
    I think that's a logical fallacy. On this very page we have examples of biological women removing breasts and taking testosterone to initiate male secondary sex characteristics, and yet retaining a womb and the capacity to concieve and bear children. Slice it how you like, that's overcoming gender norms in a pretty profound way.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 21,836
    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    One of my female friends has labelled herself as "agender" precisely because women throughout her life have not accepted that she does not conform to traditional expressions of feminity - make-up, clothing and the like.

    The whole transgender thing looks to me a lot like a surrender to gender norms and societal hostility to social eccentricity. Instead of expanding the range of ways in which it is acceptable to be a man or a woman it narrows them.
    I think that's a logical fallacy. On this very page we have examples of biological women removing breasts and taking testosterone to initiate male secondary sex characteristics, and yet retaining a womb and the capacity to concieve and bear children. Slice it how you like, that's overcoming gender norms in a pretty profound way.
    I think you have misunderstood me, and your comment also seems to be an example of confusing gender and sex.

    I see gender as relating to behaviour and presentation. Things like which clothes you wear, the interests you have, how you act. While sex relates to biology and a person's physical body. So if someone is taking testosterone to initiate make secondary sex characteristics that looks to me like someone altering their physical biology in order to match the gender norms that they fit most closely to.

    Since I consider gender norms to be largely bollocks it strikes me as a retrograde step to encourage people to alter their biology to fit societies current gender norms. It was only a few centuries ago that it was very normal for upper class men to engage in peacocking displays of clothing wear, so why do we now have people altering their bodies because they don't fit into the constrained gender norms of men wearing boring clothes?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,305
    edited 12:31PM

    viewcode said:

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    One of my female friends has labelled herself as "agender" precisely because women throughout her life have not accepted that she does not conform to traditional expressions of feminity - make-up, clothing and the like.

    The whole transgender thing looks to me a lot like a surrender to gender norms and societal hostility to social eccentricity. Instead of expanding the range of ways in which it is acceptable to be a man or a woman it narrows them.
    I think that's a logical fallacy. On this very page we have examples of biological women removing breasts and taking testosterone to initiate male secondary sex characteristics, and yet retaining a womb and the capacity to concieve and bear children. Slice it how you like, that's overcoming gender norms in a pretty profound way.
    I think you have misunderstood me, and your comment also seems to be an example of confusing gender and sex.

    I see gender as relating to behaviour and presentation. Things like which clothes you wear, the interests you have, how you act. While sex relates to biology and a person's physical body. So if someone is taking testosterone to initiate make secondary sex characteristics that looks to me like someone altering their physical biology in order to match the gender norms that they fit most closely to.

    Since I consider gender norms to be largely bollocks it strikes me as a retrograde step to encourage people to alter their biology to fit societies current gender norms. It was only a few centuries ago that it was very normal for upper class men to engage in peacocking displays of clothing wear, so why do we now have people altering their bodies because they don't fit into the constrained gender norms of men wearing boring clothes?
    Two points

    1) "it strikes me as a retrograde step to encourage people to alter their biology to fit societies current gender norms". The example I gave wasn't trying to fit current gender norms - quite the opposite. What gender norms does somebody with a beard, a receding hairline, a deep voice, no breasts, a functioning womb, and pregnant fit into?

    2) "why do we now have people altering their bodies because they don't fit into the constrained gender norms of men wearing boring clothes" The example I gave were biological women.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,723

    Foxy said:

    viewcode said:
    My colleagues working in obstetrics get a small but regular number of pregnant Transgender men. They get the same standard of care, and are treated as autonomous individuals with agency. This includes using their preferred pronouns and gender roles.

    What possible advantage to anyone in refusing to do so? How does that help navigate to a successful birth?

    There are many sides to gender misalignment, but there are some parallels with the desire for diagnosis as a label to validate an individuals life experience, similar to that we see in the proliferation of diagnoses of milder forms of autism, ADD, ADHD, and other aspects of neurodiversity.

    Medicalising via a diagnostic label can be helpful in allowing a person to come to terms with their life and a degree of acceptance of being different. Whether there is any more objective benefit in terms of functioning is very much unevidenced. Often I think we would be better off with a broader acceptance of social eccentricity and difference. Why should we suppress our individuality in pursuit of a grudging social acceptance?
    One of my female friends has labelled herself as "agender" precisely because women throughout her life have not accepted that she does not conform to traditional expressions of feminity - make-up, clothing and the like.

    The whole transgender thing looks to me a lot like a surrender to gender norms and societal hostility to social eccentricity. Instead of expanding the range of ways in which it is acceptable to be a man or a woman it narrows them.
    I largely agree with your view, but I don't think the entirity of gender misalignment is explained this way, it is just one factor among many.

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