The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
Speaking purely from a design point of view, the England flag isn't very good IMHO. Too plain.
I would prefer if the cross was shifted a bit left like our Scandinavian cousins’ flags.
I rather like the English flag. And indeed the Scottish flag. And as you mention it the Scandinavian flags. Simple, striking. And so familiar that you almost forget that they're religious symbols. Which, when I remember it, is regrettable. I wonder if Pakistani or Turkish people feel the same about their flags.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
GOP Chmn of the Senate Armed Services Cmte also rejects the Trump peace proposal. I wonder if the GOP caucus might defy Trump on Ukraine like it did on Epstein and force a vote in new sanctions.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
Throughout the whole war Europe has been obsessed with finding an "offramp" for Putin, trying to work out what we can offer him that he would accept. They've completely misunderstood his motivations and, frankly, how unhinged he is. Hence we had continual predictions of a Korean-style armistice when there's been zero sign of Putin being willing to give up on his ambitions.
We need a victory plan. And that starts with seeing victory as our objective. But that feels very distant from the thinking of European politicians.
There's only one off-ramp for Putin - the destruction of the Russian hydrocarbons sector. Take his country back to the stone age.
Asked to clarify if he thinks Trump is a fascist, before Mamdani can answer, Trump intervenes and laughs it off, saying, “That’s ok. You can just say yes. That’s easier. It’s easier than explaining.” https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
Asked to clarify if he thinks Trump is a fascist, before Mamdani can answer, Trump intervenes and laughs it off, saying, “That’s ok. You can just say yes. That’s easier. It’s easier than explaining.” https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
Asked to clarify if he thinks Trump is a fascist, before Mamdani can answer, Trump intervenes and laughs it off, saying, “That’s ok. You can just say yes. That’s easier. It’s easier than explaining.” https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
That's a yes, then.
But Trump isn't.
That would require Trump to have some sort of intellectual/political philosophy underpinning of his actions.
Trump is more of a mix of the incompetent mafia bosses who Don Corleone despised and a shyster businessman constantly needing to grift more money to stop his empire from collapsing.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
I had a meeting today with somebody proudly showing me the pictures on his phone of Trump and he in the Oval Office.
The accompanying message was that Trump was a good friend and family man.
But also, he was a grifting bastard who would do anything for money - and nothing without it.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
I don't know why another richard has chosen to single out Tusk in particular, but if Europe is going to find its way out of this dangerous moment then he's right that at least one European leader is going to have to take a lead, and other European leaders will need to follow it.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
Well I would hope that the people of Poland have considered the events of 1938 and the effects a year later.
And perhaps come to the conclusion that it would have been in Poland's interest to stand alongside Czechoslovakia against Germany.
After all there's been more than a little angst over the decades as to whether Britain made the right choice.
As for Trump, a malignant narcissist who cannot be trusted.
But in the absence of a friendly USA then other countries need to take more responsibility.
Do you have any ideas as to which countries might be best placed and best resourced to do that ? Or does every other country get a 'Blame Trump' excuse for doing nothing ?
Asked to clarify if he thinks Trump is a fascist, before Mamdani can answer, Trump intervenes and laughs it off, saying, “That’s ok. You can just say yes. That’s easier. It’s easier than explaining.” https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
That's a yes, then.
But Trump isn't.
That would require Trump to have some sort of intellectual/political philosophy underpinning of his actions.
Trump is more of a mix of the incompetent mafia bosses who Don Corleone despised and a shyster businessman constantly needing to grift more money to stop his empire from collapsing.
I thought it was a rare cool almost likable moment from Trump
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
Hitler's puppet state of Slovakia (set up in March 1939) was allowed to annex two bits of Polish territory (Orawa and Spisz) in October 1939. This was reversed in 1945.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
I don't know why another richard has chosen to single out Tusk in particular, but if Europe is going to find its way out of this dangerous moment then he's right that at least one European leader is going to have to take a lead, and other European leaders will need to follow it.
Tusk is as good as any other.
Because Tusk is the prime minister of Poland, the front line country in this crisis.
If Tusk was the prime minister of Spain or Portugal then I wouldn't be mentioning him.
And not only is Tusk the 'man on the spot' he has a noted history of posturing about 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order'.
NEW: Comey moves to dismiss on grounds of multiple alleged instances of grand jury misconduct, stating that because the two-count indictment was never presented to the full grand jury, there was no actual indictment within the five-year statute of limitations for the two charged crimes.
Its curious as to how incompetent Trump's legal creatures have been over the years.
Even with the resources of the US government they don't seem to be any good.
The competent lawyers said don't indict Comey
That's why he had to hire one specifically stupid enough to try it
Sure, but it should be easy to find a competent lawyer who will lose competently.
Instead of some incompetent grifter who will just expose his incompetence and damage Trump by association.
The only competent way to lose was not to indict
When I see Trump's petty efforts to bring down his enemies, often with no justification other than they pissed him off, I think of this Randy Newman song:
I ran out on my children And I ran out on my wife Gonna run out on you too baby I done it all my life Everybody cried the night I left Well almost everybody did My little boy just hung his head And I put my arm put my arm around his little shoulder And this is what I said: "Sonny I just want you to hurt like I do I just want you to hurt like I do I just want you to hurt like I do Honest I do honest I do, honest I do"
If I had one wish One dream I knew would come true I'd want to speak to all the people of the world I'd get up there, I'd get up there on that platform First I'd sing a song or two you know I would Then I'll tell you what I'd do I'd talk to the people and I'd say "It's a rough rough world, it's a tough tough world Well, you know And things don't always, things don't always go the way we plan But there's one thing, one thing we all have in common And it's something everyone can understand All over the world sing along I just want you to hurt like I do I just want you to hurt like I do I just want you to hurt like I do Honest I do, honest I do, honest I do"
Asked to clarify if he thinks Trump is a fascist, before Mamdani can answer, Trump intervenes and laughs it off, saying, “That’s ok. You can just say yes. That’s easier. It’s easier than explaining.” https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
That's a yes, then.
But Trump isn't.
That would require Trump to have some sort of intellectual/political philosophy underpinning of his actions.
Trump is more of a mix of the incompetent mafia bosses who Don Corleone despised and a shyster businessman constantly needing to grift more money to stop his empire from collapsing.
I thought it was a rare cool almost likable moment from Trump
Trump can certainly do the likeable persona - maybe an act, maybe genuine - its certainly been part of his image throughout his business and celebrity career.
But those on the receiving end of his likeability need to be strong and on their guard.
Q: Stefanik has called Mamdani a 'jihadist.' Do you think you're standing next to a jihadist right now?
TRUMP: No, I don't. I met with a man who's a very rational person
Republicans and pro-Trump media outlets were gravely disappointed by the lack of fireworks at Friday’s Oval Office meeting between New York’s mayor-elect, Zohran Mamdani, and Queens native Donald Trump, who had attacked the democratic socialist as a “100% Communist lunatic,” before showering him with praise at the meeting Mamdani requested.
In the hours before the meeting, the encounter was described by Fox News as Trump’s “showdown with socialism” and equated to a prize fight and billed as “the Battle of the Ages: capitalism versus communism” on pillow salesman Mike Lindell’s TV outlet.
As Mamdani made his way to Washington on Friday morning, Rick Scott, a Republican senator from Florida, shared the selfie he posted from his flight with the ominous caption: “Here’s the new face of the Democrat party — a literal communist — on his way to the White House to be schooled by President Trump.”
In the end, the meeting went so well for Mamdani that the Democratic Socialists of America mocked the Fox “showdown” graphic in a post that said simply: “Socialism won! Join DSA”.
What are the odds on this test match finishing tonight? Just watched the highlights and the pitch was behaving very oddly with people being hit on the helmet and elbow quite a lot.
Q: Stefanik has called Mamdani a 'jihadist.' Do you think you're standing next to a jihadist right now?
TRUMP: No, I don't. I met with a man who's a very rational person
Republicans and pro-Trump media outlets were gravely disappointed by the lack of fireworks at Friday’s Oval Office meeting between New York’s mayor-elect, Zohran Mamdani, and Queens native Donald Trump, who had attacked the democratic socialist as a “100% Communist lunatic,” before showering him with praise at the meeting Mamdani requested.
In the hours before the meeting, the encounter was described by Fox News as Trump’s “showdown with socialism” and equated to a prize fight and billed as “the Battle of the Ages: capitalism versus communism” on pillow salesman Mike Lindell’s TV outlet.
As Mamdani made his way to Washington on Friday morning, Rick Scott, a Republican senator from Florida, shared the selfie he posted from his flight with the ominous caption: “Here’s the new face of the Democrat party — a literal communist — on his way to the White House to be schooled by President Trump.”
In the end, the meeting went so well for Mamdani that the Democratic Socialists of America mocked the Fox “showdown” graphic in a post that said simply: “Socialism won! Join DSA”.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
I don't know why another richard has chosen to single out Tusk in particular, but if Europe is going to find its way out of this dangerous moment then he's right that at least one European leader is going to have to take a lead, and other European leaders will need to follow it.
Tusk is as good as any other.
Because Tusk is the prime minister of Poland, the front line country in this crisis.
If Tusk was the prime minister of Spain or Portugal then I wouldn't be mentioning him.
And not only is Tusk the 'man on the spot' he has a noted history of posturing about 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order'.
Or he did when it was about Brexit.
Ah! It's all about Brexit. I hadn't made the correlation.
I foolishly thought Europe is in peril because an incontinent old grifter might be on the Kremlin payroll.
"Standing up for American women who were raped at 14, trafficked and used by rich powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States, whom I fought for."
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
A symbol being used by racists for racist purposes is sadly going to be seen as racist. It's a real shame. I certainly won't be rushing to put it up during the world cup. Great work, racists! You've shat on your own country's flag.
That's how I feel - I won't now fly the England flag because it's racist. It shouldn't be, I wish it wasn't, but it is now. However, as someone with mixed British heritage I always preferred the Union Jack anyway.
Why should anyone feel Christmassy when it's over a month away? It's not even Advent yet FFS.
I have a deep mistrust of anyone who blithely buys into the vacuous Commercialism of front-loading the Festive season.
Can't we start on Christmas Eve, but maintain it through until Candlemas?!?
Advent calendars will be cheap on Christmas Eve. As for the rest, ask those less affluent families who out of necessity have been preparing for months, possibly all year by buying discounted wrapping paper and gifts in the Boxing Day sales, because they can't just plonk down a week's wages to pay for the lot in the final week. It is not so long ago that firms would run Christmas clubs to assist savers; perhaps a few still do, although I suspect it has gone the way of the works outing or Derby sweepstake.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
You had not noticed Israel and the United States see themselves as entitled to smite the Middle East or Central and South America? And let's not forget Britain does not have clean hands either.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
People are getting excited by MTG going against Trump but she isn’t doing it from a position of enlightenment, she is representing the next, worse, wave in the GOP - AMAO, America First and Only. She comes from the isolationist, Christian fundamentalist, anti-Semitic wing. She’s more aligned with Nick Fuentes so whilst I hope a MAGA split would make them unelectable if they are elected it can get worse - Iranian fundamentalist worse.
MTG explicitly called out Trump for involvement in foreign wars. Did people imagine she did not include Ukraine?
Never mind the politics, read the captions which render ‘turning point one way or the other’ as ‘turning 0.1 way or the other’ and bow down before our AI overlords.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
Cough. Afghanistan.
Disaster.
The Afghan surrender and release of the Taliban prisoners was a Trump initiative, even if the final scuttle was under Biden.
Yes, but this is just double-standards. Things Biden does are excused, and things Trump does are condemned.
Look, I don't like Trump - at all - but the derangement syndrome is real.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
Cough. Afghanistan.
Disaster.
Whose. Cough. Deal was that ?
Biden was advocating for it for years. Even under Obama, who overruled him.
I quite like that it's not raining in Perth. This is a pretty exciting game.
That was a crazy day’s cricket yesterday, not sure that any of us thought England might be in the match at lunch. The hosts asked for a green pitch for their bowlers, but our bowlers were also up to the task.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
That would be ideal, but such a settlement would require the total and complete military defeat of Russia.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
That would be ideal, but such a settlement would require the total and complete military defeat of Russia.
That's not the point: the point is to shift the conversation on from the concessions Ukraine has to make, and to make it clear to Russia that Ukraine (and Europe) aren't desperate for just a few concessions, and then we;ll capitulate.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
Cough. Afghanistan.
Disaster.
The Afghan surrender and release of the Taliban prisoners was a Trump initiative, even if the final scuttle was under Biden.
Yes, but this is just double-standards. Things Biden does are excused, and things Trump does are condemned.
Look, I don't like Trump - at all - but the derangement syndrome is real.
I think it's very simple: Biden and Obama were weak; Trump is actively malevolent.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
That would be ideal, but such a settlement would require the total and complete military defeat of Russia.
That's not the point: the point is to shift the conversation on from the concessions Ukraine has to make, and to make it clear to Russia that Ukraine (and Europe) aren't desperate for just a few concessions, and then we;ll capitulate.
Break the OODA loop.
I get that. But it would require very strong political leadership right across Europe and for that consensus to be backed by force.
Also, it would need to be carefully targeted at Putin himself because if I'm reading Russian psychology right it could otherwise backfire.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
Cough. Afghanistan.
Disaster.
The Afghan surrender and release of the Taliban prisoners was a Trump initiative, even if the final scuttle was under Biden.
Yes, but this is just double-standards. Things Biden does are excused, and things Trump does are condemned.
Look, I don't like Trump - at all - but the derangement syndrome is real.
I think it's very simple: Biden and Obama were weak; Trump is actively malevolent.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
That would be ideal, but such a settlement would require the total and complete military defeat of Russia.
That's not the point: the point is to shift the conversation on from the concessions Ukraine has to make, and to make it clear to Russia that Ukraine (and Europe) aren't desperate for just a few concessions, and then we;ll capitulate.
Break the OODA loop.
I get that. But it would require very strong political leadership right across Europe and for that consensus to be backed by force.
Also, it would need to be carefully targeted at Putin himself because if I'm reading Russian psychology right it could otherwise backfire.
Well, I would concentrate on how many more Russians need to die in Putin's vain and futile quest for imperial glory, while the babuskas cannot afford petrol for their cars, and the lights go out every night. Stop the war, and send the criminals to the Hague, and Russia can be great again.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
Yes, it’s clear to everyone that the Russian proposal isn’t fit for anything except making the bin dirty, so make the point by showing them what a maximalist Ukranian proposal would look like.
The writing has been on the wall since the start. She should be toast were it not for the poor alternatives like Councillor Jenrick. But the longer she is there the worse the situation. Can’t see a way out for them.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
It's probably what will happen, but I read an opinion (Well, two) over on another forum that simply advocated for direct intervention by the EU/UK, arguing that this was now pretty much inevitable anyway.
Unless Trump pulls a TACO, or the above 3 point plan works; I'm struggling to see how this current Trump plan if implemented, doesn't lead to a rump Czechoslovakia collapsing inside of six months with Germany sweeping in to take the rest before turning on another neighbouring country like Poland....... oh wait......
Which is why Poland needs to intervene and Donald Tusk needs to show some leadership.
If not then they will have learnt nothing from their mistake in 1938.
And, some might say, need to pay back western Europe for what they've received since 1990.
I am not sure how you arrived at Mornington Crescent, but it looks like a wild journey.
Perhaps you're not aware of the events of 1938.
It was when Poland sided with Germany in order to scavenge a few miles of Czechoslovakian territory.
How clever Poland thought it was at the time.
Less than a year later it didn't seem so clever when Germany invaded Poland, with German divisions operating with former Czechoslovakian equipment and from former Czechoslovakian territory.
I am well aware of the invasion of Sudetenland. I am unsure of the current parallel and your singling out Tusk as the weakest link.
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
Tusk is the prime minister of Poland.
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Are your parents from Trans-Olza? (No, this isn’t another trans debate: that’s the name for the small bit of Czechoslovakia that Poland occupied in 1938.) Because the rest of the world does not think this was a historic moment that Poland must make right. It still feels like you’re missing the big (orange) picture here.
I don't know why another richard has chosen to single out Tusk in particular, but if Europe is going to find its way out of this dangerous moment then he's right that at least one European leader is going to have to take a lead, and other European leaders will need to follow it.
Tusk is as good as any other.
Because Tusk is the prime minister of Poland, the front line country in this crisis.
If Tusk was the prime minister of Spain or Portugal then I wouldn't be mentioning him.
And not only is Tusk the 'man on the spot' he has a noted history of posturing about 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order'.
Or he did when it was about Brexit.
Ah! It's all about Brexit. I hadn't made the correlation.
I foolishly thought Europe is in peril because an incontinent old grifter might be on the Kremlin payroll.
Simply pointing out the contrast between hard man posturing Tusk engaged in over Brexit to his craven weakness over Ukraine.
Comments
It is Trump who seems to be a little sketchy on European history both pre and post the Second World War.
https://x.com/atrupar/status/1991975992928198734
And they usually don't have a credible case to work with.
That tends to rule out the best legal brains.
(Apologies to people who don’t know The Simpsons.)
For now,
GOP Chmn of the Senate Armed Services Cmte also rejects the Trump peace proposal. I wonder if the GOP caucus might defy Trump on Ukraine like it did on Epstein and force a vote in new sanctions.
https://x.com/jimsciutto/status/1991999667601850767?s=20
That's why he had to hire one specifically stupid enough to try it
Poland is a neighbouring country to Ukraine, with we are often told an economy doing so well that it will soon overtake the UK and, I read on PB, with a military strong enough to beat Russia on itself.
Now Poland, and Tusk in particular, can take the lead and do something or he can let 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order that he fought for as a young man, an unravelling of everything he believes in' happen.
In short in 1938 Poland was in a position to do something and chose not to. In 2025 Poland is again in a position to do something.
As for Trump - a malignant narcissist who cares only about how much he can grift but doesn't give a toss about countries far away and peoples he knows nothing about (another echo of 1938).
Instead of some incompetent grifter who will just expose his incompetence and damage Trump by association.
Then start hitting the stones with missiles.
https://x.com/kaitlancollins/status/1991973114012721360
That's a yes, then.
That would require Trump to have some sort of intellectual/political philosophy underpinning of his actions.
Trump is more of a mix of the incompetent mafia bosses who Don Corleone despised and a shyster businessman constantly needing to grift more money to stop his empire from collapsing.
The accompanying message was that Trump was a good friend and family man.
But also, he was a grifting bastard who would do anything for money - and nothing without it.
Tusk is as good as any other.
And perhaps come to the conclusion that it would have been in Poland's interest to stand alongside Czechoslovakia against Germany.
After all there's been more than a little angst over the decades as to whether Britain made the right choice.
As for Trump, a malignant narcissist who cannot be trusted.
But in the absence of a friendly USA then other countries need to take more responsibility.
Do you have any ideas as to which countries might be best placed and best resourced to do that ? Or does every other country get a 'Blame Trump' excuse for doing nothing ?
If Tusk was the prime minister of Spain or Portugal then I wouldn't be mentioning him.
And not only is Tusk the 'man on the spot' he has a noted history of posturing about 'a catastrophic breach of the liberal democratic order'.
Or he did when it was about Brexit.
I ran out on my children
And I ran out on my wife
Gonna run out on you too baby
I done it all my life
Everybody cried the night I left
Well almost everybody did
My little boy just hung his head
And I put my arm put my arm around his little shoulder
And this is what I said:
"Sonny I just want you to hurt like I do
I just want you to hurt like I do
I just want you to hurt like I do
Honest I do honest I do, honest I do"
If I had one wish
One dream I knew would come true
I'd want to speak to all the people of the world
I'd get up there, I'd get up there on that platform
First I'd sing a song or two you know I would
Then I'll tell you what I'd do
I'd talk to the people and I'd say
"It's a rough rough world, it's a tough tough world
Well, you know
And things don't always, things don't always go the way we plan
But there's one thing, one thing we all have in common
And it's something everyone can understand
All over the world sing along
I just want you to hurt like I do
I just want you to hurt like I do
I just want you to hurt like I do
Honest I do, honest I do, honest I do"
But those on the receiving end of his likeability need to be strong and on their guard.
Its strength that Trump respects.
Q: Stefanik has called Mamdani a 'jihadist.' Do you think you're standing next to a jihadist right now?
TRUMP: No, I don't. I met with a man who's a very rational person
https://youtu.be/h9cG8HawEQY?si=5ye4aqMh8porcLNN
In the hours before the meeting, the encounter was described by Fox News as Trump’s “showdown with socialism” and equated to a prize fight and billed as “the Battle of the Ages: capitalism versus communism” on pillow salesman Mike Lindell’s TV outlet.
As Mamdani made his way to Washington on Friday morning, Rick Scott, a Republican senator from Florida, shared the selfie he posted from his flight with the ominous caption: “Here’s the new face of the Democrat party — a literal communist — on his way to the White House to be schooled by President Trump.”
In the end, the meeting went so well for Mamdani that the Democratic Socialists of America mocked the Fox “showdown” graphic in a post that said simply: “Socialism won! Join DSA”.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2025/nov/21/donald-trump-democrats-republicans-zohran-mamdani-us-politics-latest-news-updates#top-of-blog
I foolishly thought Europe is in peril because an incontinent old grifter might be on the Kremlin payroll.
https://x.com/mtgreenee/status/1992037226415554642
"Standing up for American women who were raped at 14, trafficked and used by rich powerful men, should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States, whom I fought for."
That's everything released by Congress. People who it does not look good for (among others): Peter Mandelson and Steve Bannon.
Sadly it’s not raining in Perth.
Look, I don't like Trump - at all - but the derangement syndrome is real.
He was the one who cut and run.
I think this board has gone to your head.
Break the OODA loop.
Terrible commentary.
But only $10/month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4qx1lenvjo
Also, it would need to be carefully targeted at Putin himself because if I'm reading Russian psychology right it could otherwise backfire.
Would that be like watching this concert:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyz32pz81vo
Sorry.
Leaked polling shows ‘existential threat’ to party – and victory for Reform
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/1469869d6ffe0a1d
Gift link bypasses paywall.
F1: qualifying didn't go quite as I thought it would. Didn't think so much rain was on the cards.
Pre-race will be up today but not for a while, I'm sure the markets will take a little time to warm up.
But no.
https://www.fia.com/documents/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14/season/season-2025-2071
Here is my last clue:
1945, 1946-1951,1966, 1968
The US (deliberately)
Japan (deliberately)
The Pacific islands (deliberately)
Spain and Greenland (accidentally)
NEW THREAD