What really makes me so angry/upset about this plan is that we pretty much all on here are into history, we studied and we read and what we are seeing is, in our lifetimes, one of those situations which you look on with disgust or embarrassment when studying the behaviour of past great powers.
It is watching as a great power who claims to be on the side of good selling out a seeker nation for its own financial reasons.
This awful thing that is so so clearly “not right” and totally immoral is happening now and what’s worse is if, like me, you were someone who believed that the Us, whilst flawed, was fundamentally on the side of freedom and defending those with similar values against dictators and despots and evil regimes.
If it happens then it will be an indelible stain on the US.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
A niche view.
Some might almost say unique amongst those with more than 1 brain cell.
Badenoch's not doing a bad job when you take into account the hand she's been dealt.
The Tories are very close to taking back second place in the polling averages. At the moment they're about half a percentage point behind.
She has certainly improved her image. But attacking the bishops is the kind of stuff she used to do that made her seem irrelevant. Stick it to the government, even the lower clergy hold the bishops in contempt on this kind of stuff.
What really makes me so angry/upset about this plan is that we pretty much all on here are into history, we studied and we read and what we are seeing is, in our lifetimes, one of those situations which you look on with disgust or embarrassment when studying the behaviour of past great powers.
It is watching as a great power who claims to be on the side of good selling out a seeker nation for its own financial reasons.
This awful thing that is so so clearly “not right” and totally immoral is happening now and what’s worse is if, like me, you were someone who believed that the Us, whilst flawed, was fundamentally on the side of freedom and defending those with similar values against dictators and despots and evil regimes.
If it happens then it will be an indelible stain on the US.
I feel as you do, but being (I think) a little older, I remember that in the 1980s the USA's nominal commitment to freedom and democracy didn't give it any qualms over maintaining all kinds of obnoxious dictatorships provided they weren't Communist.
BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
“Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable
Not going to happen.
Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.
You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.
Sadly I am
I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.
I think the USA was an ally of Europe when it suited the interests of the USA.
As these interest generally aligned with those of Western Europe for several decades that was good.
But it was casually complacent to think that would always be the case.
At least Trump is so blatant ** that the pretence cannot be maintained.
** Not to mention also so incompetent, brutish and corrupt.
When things go pear it's always regrettable that it wasn't anticipated. But this gets us nowhere. What's important now is that Ukraine gets the support it needs to escape being beholden to the whims of one tyrant in defending itself against another.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
Over €187 billion in support?
Wow
Amazing
A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal
"Global aid to Ukraine since 2022 has reached a staggering 400 billion euros committed as of December 2024, or about $430 billion, according to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy. "
Ukraine's had about $430Bn of aid in total apparently. Whisper it quietly but shouldn't they have been able to push the Russians back a bit more with that much ?
They have forced a supposed superpower to an essential stalemate where Russia is losing hundreds of thousands of men to gain small muddy fields. And made big gains from the initial Russian advance, for example in Kherson.
The initial forecast was that Russia would have control of almost the entire country in a matter of days.
Any suggestion that Ukraine has performed anything short of exceptionally is absurd.
Not mention run down every stockpile that Russia had since the Cold War. All the tens of thousands of slightly rusty tanks, SPGs, artillery shells, missiles. All gone.
They've had a superpowers worth of slightly past it's sell buy date weapons fired at them. And destroyed or survived them all.
BREAKING: President Zelenskyy addressed Ukrainians from outside his presidencial office in Kyiv and told them the county is facing “one of the most difficult moments in our history” as its biggest ally presses it into a deal with the nation that has fought to destroy it for 11 years.
“Now the pressure on Ukraine is one of the most difficult. Now Ukraine may find itself facing a very difficult choice - either the loss of dignity, or the risk of losing a key partner. Either [the Trump administration] 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter, the most difficult and further risks. Life without freedom, without dignity, without justice and for us to believe the one who has attacked twice already. They will expect an answer from us.”
Surely now’s the time for Europe to grow a spine, stand up and say this deal is unacceptable
Not going to happen.
Or we will say it, but not do anything. This is between Putin and Trump now, everyone else is just being railroaded.
You're not expecting this 'deal' to be implemented, are you? I can't see how it will be.
Sadly I am
I doubt it. I think the war carries on. But it probably does mark the end of the pretence that the US remains an ally of Europe.
I think the USA was an ally of Europe when it suited the interests of the USA.
As these interest generally aligned with those of Western Europe for several decades that was good.
But it was casually complacent to think that would always be the case.
At least Trump is so blatant ** that the pretence cannot be maintained.
** Not to mention also so incompetent, brutish and corrupt.
When things go pear it's always regrettable that it wasn't anticipated. But this gets us nowhere. What's important now is that Ukraine gets the support it needs to escape being beholden to the whims of one tyrant in defending itself against another.
Indeed so.
Which will require leadership from Starmer, Macron and Merz. And most of all from Donald Tusk.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
What really makes me so angry/upset about this plan is that we pretty much all on here are into history, we studied and we read and what we are seeing is, in our lifetimes, one of those situations which you look on with disgust or embarrassment when studying the behaviour of past great powers.
It is watching as a great power who claims to be on the side of good selling out a seeker nation for its own financial reasons.
This awful thing that is so so clearly “not right” and totally immoral is happening now and what’s worse is if, like me, you were someone who believed that the Us, whilst flawed, was fundamentally on the side of freedom and defending those with similar values against dictators and despots and evil regimes.
If it happens then it will be an indelible stain on the US.
Note that this plan does very definitely not just sell out Ukraine.
A shocking part of the Trump–Russia "peace plan" isn’t just what it does to Ukraine. It is what it quietly does to Poland.
Buried in point 9 is a sentence that looks harmless: European fighters will be stationed in Poland.
On paper, that sounds fine. In practice, though, it looks like Washington and Moscow have agreed over Poland’s head to limit the presence of foreign forces on Polish soil, including US forces, and to put a ceiling on NATO air power over the region.
If “European fighters” are explicitly named, the obvious Russian reading is simple: no US jets in Poland. And if Russia is co-signing language that defines who and what can be stationed here, it is also a de facto say over NATO air policing in the Baltics and the rest of the eastern flank.
That is not “Pax Americana.” That is the US accepting a Russian veto over the security posture of front-line allies.
For Polish politics this hits a very specific nerve. For years, Jarosław Kaczyński and now President Karol Nawrocki have built their doctrine on one core idea: forget Brussels, forget Berlin, our security rests on a direct, privileged relationship with Washington.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
The European response to this, broadly across Ukraine, the UK and relevant EU states, is hopefully well practised now:
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
It may well apply to a few PBers.
But also, perhaps, to a younger and more working class demographic who own their own homes in regional Britain.
It’s outright shameful when 🇺🇸, after having made no contribution whatsoever to the reconstruction of 🇺🇦, demands 50% of all the profits from what reconstruction succeeds in building. https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
Its one reason why I feel an immediate suspicion of suggestions about '15 minute cities'.
Where are the voices of Hollywood? Usually so quick to advertise their virtue and jump on any bandwagon to show they are on the side of the angels. Why aren’t former presidents, chiefs of defence staff, too generals hitting the news channels to say that this is a disgraceful proposal?
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
Kemi has to be very careful here, most C of E bishops may lean left liberal but their congregations do not.
In fact after Jews Anglicans in the UK are more likely to vote Conservative than any other faith group so those like me who are both Anglican and diehard Tories even now are the last group she should be annoying, she doesn't want to lose them to Reform or the LDs too.
Indeed at the last general election 40% of Conservatives said they were Anglicans, 37% had no religion and 9% were Roman Catholic and 2% free church evanglical Protestants.
By contrast only 12% of 2024 Labour voters were Anglicans, 56% had no religion and 7% Roman Catholic and 3% free church.
In a poll before the 2019 general election too 40% of Anglicans backed the Conservatives, more than any other faith group except the 44% of Jews who backed the Tories.
Labour did best with Muslims, 53% of whom backed Labour to just 17% of Anglicans backing Labour, the LDs did best with Buddhists, 15% of whom backed Swinson to 7% of Anglicans going LD and the SNP did best with Church of Scotland voters UK wide unsurprisingly (though the Scottish Tories led in Scotland with Church of Scotland voters overall) https://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
Also the Tories as party of the family should be proposing to raise child benefit for all parents who claim it, even if they keep the 2 child cap for child benefit for those on UC
It’s outright shameful when 🇺🇸, after having made no contribution whatsoever to the reconstruction of 🇺🇦, demands 50% of all the profits from what reconstruction succeeds in building. https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
Also absolutely characteristic of Trump.
And for what?
One way or another, he won't need money when he leaves the White House.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.
Faith leaders have a place in the fully appointed now House of Lords
I wonder what happens to those Ukrainians who have been living in other European countries since the war started. My Brother and his family have had a mother and son living with them since the beginning. The son was 17 then so I guess he's 20 now.
Will all the countries who took them in send them back? Will the boy be tried in Ukraine for draft dodging? I believe boys were supposed to return when they reached 18. It's going to be quite a mess
There's a shortage of housing in Ukraine, because of the destruction wrought by Russia, and because many Ukrainians won't want to return to areas occupied by Russia, so it would be very hard for lots of the Ukrainians who left Ukraine to return soon after a ceasefire. A lot of rebuilding will need to happen.
I'd expect most Ukrainians who have moved abroad to stay there unless required to leave, and forcing them to return would IMO be unpopular even in countries with strong anti-migrant sentiment, especially if the peace was seen as unfair.
It’s outright shameful when 🇺🇸, after having made no contribution whatsoever to the reconstruction of 🇺🇦, demands 50% of all the profits from what reconstruction succeeds in building. https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
Also absolutely characteristic of Trump.
This occured to me, but equally i think it's one of the less offensive parts of the plan.
Particularly as I'm not sure why reconstruction efforts would yield any profits at all?
If EU funds rebuild a bunch of Ukraine infrastructure, it's just an expense. There's no profit beyond long-term viability of the Ukrainian economy. It's not direct.
It's one area I'd concede to Trump on order to get concessions on territory and the size of military etc. He is motivated by greed and won't read the fine print.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
"The A2s always were a bit twitchy. That could never happen now with our behavioral inhibitors. It is impossible for me to harm or by omission of action, allow to be harmed, a human being."
The question for the Taiwanese is: what is Trump's price for selling out Taiwan to China? Likewise Japan and South Korea.
All three countries have large incentives to establish a nuclear deterrence to protect themselves from China, because the US is further confirmed as an unreliable ally.
Bishops have no place in politics. Nor in forcing us to go take a crap at ten to eight of a morning while listening to Radio 4. Although it does keep us nice and regular.
Faith leaders have a place in the fully appointed now House of Lords
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
Where are the voices of Hollywood? Usually so quick to advertise their virtue and jump on any bandwagon to show they are on the side of the angels. Why aren’t former presidents, chiefs of defence staff, too generals hitting the news channels to say that this is a disgraceful proposal?
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
"All of your ridiculous pitiful antics aren't gonna change a thing. You and me, we're puppets in the same sick game. We serve the same master, and he's a lunatic and he's ungrateful. But there's nothing we can do about it. You and me, we're the same."
It’s outright shameful when 🇺🇸, after having made no contribution whatsoever to the reconstruction of 🇺🇦, demands 50% of all the profits from what reconstruction succeeds in building. https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
Also absolutely characteristic of Trump.
This occured to me, but equally i think it's one of the less offensive parts of the plan.
Particularly as I'm not sure why reconstruction efforts would yield any profits at all?
If EU funds rebuild a bunch of Ukraine infrastructure, it's just an expense. There's no profit beyond long-term viability of the Ukrainian economy. It's not direct.
It's one area I'd concede to Trump on order to get concessions on territory and the size of military etc. He is motivated by greed and won't read the fine print.
Recall this is a Russian plan. That clause was Putin there to appeal to him.
Where are the voices of Hollywood? Usually so quick to advertise their virtue and jump on any bandwagon to show they are on the side of the angels. Why aren’t former presidents, chiefs of defence staff, too generals hitting the news channels to say that this is a disgraceful proposal?
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
There's at least one GOP Rep (and former USAF general) who is not happy:
We don't have all the details yet, but it's sounding more like a Russian plan for Ukraine. Negotiating without Ukraine is a lot like Munich 1938. It makes Ukraine weaker & vulnerable to future Russian attacks. It's unacceptable & a surrender to Putin. We must have moral clarity.
The question for the Taiwanese is: what is Trump's price for selling out Taiwan to China? Likewise Japan and South Korea.
All three countries have large incentives to establish a nuclear deterrence to protect themselves from China, because the US is further confirmed as an unreliable ally.
That was confirmed a little while back. This questions whether they are currently an ally at all.
I wonder what happens to those Ukrainians who have been living in other European countries since the war started. My Brother and his family have had a mother and son living with them since the beginning. The son was 17 then so I guess he's 20 now.
Will all the countries who took them in send them back? Will the boy be tried in Ukraine for draft dodging? I believe boys were supposed to return when they reached 18. It's going to be quite a mess
There's a shortage of housing in Ukraine, because of the destruction wrought by Russia, and because many Ukrainians won't want to return to areas occupied by Russia, so it would be very hard for lots of the Ukrainians who left Ukraine to return soon after a ceasefire. A lot of rebuilding will need to happen.
I'd expect most Ukrainians who have moved abroad to stay there unless required to leave, and forcing them to return would IMO be unpopular even in countries with strong anti-migrant sentiment, especially if the peace was seen as unfair.
Ukraine have a severe demographic crisis. They also exempt men with three children from military service. The incentive is clear: get married, have three children very quickly, be exempt from the draft until you're in your 40s and your children have grown up.
It’s outright shameful when 🇺🇸, after having made no contribution whatsoever to the reconstruction of 🇺🇦, demands 50% of all the profits from what reconstruction succeeds in building. https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
Also absolutely characteristic of Trump.
This occured to me, but equally i think it's one of the less offensive parts of the plan.
Particularly as I'm not sure why reconstruction efforts would yield any profits at all?
If EU funds rebuild a bunch of Ukraine infrastructure, it's just an expense. There's no profit beyond long-term viability of the Ukrainian economy. It's not direct.
It's one area I'd concede to Trump on order to get concessions on territory and the size of military etc. He is motivated by greed and won't read the fine print.
In any case Trump will be pushing up daises by the time the reconstruction is done, and giving Trump a reason to keep Ukraine going. Its a classic "teaching the King's horse to talk" gambit.
On a day when Nathan Gill has had a 10 year sentance for being a Putin stooge, what sentence is appropriate for this act of treachery?
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
A niche view.
Tbf there is the president from 2016-19, but no, Prez Trump is even worse than him.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
Its one reason why I feel an immediate suspicion of suggestions about '15 minute cities'.
Maybe irrationally, maybe not.
Most rural villages are 5-minute "cities", by necessity. Indeed the closure of so many rural schools, bus stops, GPs, shops, pubs is not something to celebrate imo.
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
Not going to take this sort of thing seriously when the US administration is so keen to do business with Russia - y'know, an actual imperialist aggressor country invading a European democracy and conducting sabotage operations in others.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
What are their views on mass migration of Russians into Ukraine?
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
I blame reading the Sermon on the Mount a bit too often.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
Over €187 billion in support?
Wow
Amazing
A fabulous contribution which has yielded the surrender deal
What has your personal contribution been? Many a mickle maks a muckle as we say up here.
If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
I find that interesting.
Dimpled golf balls fly further than smooth ones, though i guess that is more about turbulent airflow than surface friction (see sharks above)
More interesting perhaps is gauge blocks, lumps of metal so smooth they stick together
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
A niche view.
Tbf there is the president from 2016-19, but no, Prez Trump is even worse than him.
He was just pretty dreadful. Looking a good option from here.
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
Its one reason why I feel an immediate suspicion of suggestions about '15 minute cities'.
Maybe irrationally, maybe not.
Most rural villages are 5-minute "cities", by necessity. Indeed the closure of so many rural schools, bus stops, GPs, shops, pubs is not something to celebrate imo.
The good old days when you had a choice of one shop, one pub and one school.
I suppose you got the choice of being a farm hand at more than one farm.
Personally I prefer the opportunities a car brings for work, retail, leisure and public services.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
That's what happens when you have legal inquiries led by judges, though. They do not understand mathematical or economic questions, and are not interested in them. What they care about is process. Understandably, since in legal matters incompetence is not usually criminal, as long as you follow correct procedure.
So we'll learn all the wrong lessons from the inquiry, and the next time will make the same mistakes, except worse. And in the meantime we will have wasted hundreds of millions and several years on this pointless jamboree, which will only have enriched lawyers and other parasites.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
It is pretty galling. These reports are meant to be a sort of tool kit for those in a distant future to deal with a similar situation. How will this one help?
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
Not really. In Hinduism the swastika is a symbol of good fortune and well-being. However, in Europe, it was deployed by some people who didn't exactly make themselves popular. As a result its irrevocably tainted here (but not in India) as a racist symbol.
In this analogy you're the Hindu and left leaning voters the Europeans. Unfortunately too many people in England have now co-opted the flag in a similar, although thankfully less genocidal way, thus tainting it. Sad, but true. Maybe we can go back to the pre-1066 Wessex Wyvern as a fresh start.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
It seems to be 'official wisdom' that the entire population spent the first half of March 2020 at the Cheltenham festival.
It is difficult to separate what you think will happen with what you would like to, but I think Kemi will do better than people thought a year ago, and would like it as well. It would be a good reward for Farage to be PM, after his years of hard work, but for the future of the right, it would be better if Kemi was PM, or at least joint PM with Farage
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
That's what happens when you have legal inquiries led by judges, though. They do not understand mathematical or economic questions, and are not interested in them. What they care about is process. Understandably, since in legal matters incompetence is not usually criminal, as long as you follow correct procedure.
So we'll learn all the wrong lessons from the inquiry, and the next time will make the same mistakes, except worse. And in the meantime we will have wasted hundreds of millions and several years on this pointless jamboree, which will only have enriched lawyers and other parasites.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
You were very anti-lockdown from the get-go, though, iirc?
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
Its one reason why I feel an immediate suspicion of suggestions about '15 minute cities'.
Maybe irrationally, maybe not.
Most rural villages are 5-minute "cities", by necessity. Indeed the closure of so many rural schools, bus stops, GPs, shops, pubs is not something to celebrate imo.
The good old days when you had a choice of one shop, one pub and one school.
I suppose you got the choice of being a farm hand at more than one farm.
Personally I prefer the opportunities a car brings for work, retail, leisure and public services.
I think most people in rural areas like having local services tbh.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
A symbol being used by racists for racist purposes is sadly going to be seen as racist. It's a real shame. I certainly won't be rushing to put it up during the world cup. Great work, racists! You've shat on your own country's flag.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
It is pretty galling. These reports are meant to be a sort of tool kit for those in a distant future to deal with a similar situation. How will this one help?
That's not realistic. It was about closure and moving on.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
I blame reading the Sermon on the Mount a bit too often.
Ten and a half years seems a bit excessive for Gill. Jail time maybe for taking some bribes from the Russians but even some who kill by dangerous driving or manslaughter or rapists get less time in jail than that.
Is it because he was Reform? One hopes not
No, I don't think it's because he was Reform. It's because he was a Traitor.
"Three of those trips were paid for or arranged by an organisation run by Janusz Niedźwiecki, a Polish national now in pre-trial detention on espionage charges, while at least one also involved Oleh Voloshyn, a Ukrainian considered an “FSB pawn” by the US Government and suspected of high treason by Ukraine."
Phone searched at an airport when he was on his way to Russia, and there were extensive text conversations in it.
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
The words 'mind your own fucking business' spring to mind.
Where are the voices of Hollywood? Usually so quick to advertise their virtue and jump on any bandwagon to show they are on the side of the angels. Why aren’t former presidents, chiefs of defence staff, too generals hitting the news channels to say that this is a disgraceful proposal?
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
Steven Segal hasn't made a hit movie this millennium
For those of us without a Daily Mail account, and who feel that our lives are the richer for not having one, what did it say?
As someone who has lived in London for most of my life, and the same corner of it for the last 25 years, I don't recognise a lot of the descriptions I read, and certainly feel that much of London is far better than during most of my life, except for a general decline in the public realm over the past decade or so that I see everywhere else I visit too.
It's a kind of modern Gin Lane account of walking through Kensington in the early hours of the morning, being scared of brown people, a random negative comment about the tube, seeing a prostitute buying some drugs, some obligatory hating on Sadiq Khan and contrasting it with the bucolic joy of the English countryside. She thinks American tourists must hate it here (weird how they keep coming) and takes a shot at the weather (also probably Khan's fault). A classic of the genre, basically.
And all those tall buildings. Scary.
Did the packs of rabid urban foxes, and Hitchcockian bird flu-infested parakeets and ornamental geese, get a look in?
Lol, I imagine so.
The 'London is terrible' meme has been around for as long as can remember. Three drivers, I'd say:
1. Backdoor envy. It means 'wish I could live there'. 2. Parochial xenophobia. It means 'multicultural equals shithole'. 3. Ageing. It means 'I'm too old for all that'.
Number 2 is what I think is behind it when it's coming from the Populist Right.
There will be others.
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
I sense that's (literally) you talking. So I'll accept the point. Rude not to.
Me as well. I detest living in cities and living in London would be a living nightmare for me. Love visiting but don't want to lay my head down anywhere insde the M25 more than 1 night in a row.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
Its one reason why I feel an immediate suspicion of suggestions about '15 minute cities'.
Maybe irrationally, maybe not.
Most rural villages are 5-minute "cities", by necessity. Indeed the closure of so many rural schools, bus stops, GPs, shops, pubs is not something to celebrate imo.
The good old days when you had a choice of one shop, one pub and one school.
I suppose you got the choice of being a farm hand at more than one farm.
Personally I prefer the opportunities a car brings for work, retail, leisure and public services.
I think most people in rural areas like having local services tbh.
They like the idea of local services and they like the availability of local services.
But are they willing to pay, either directly or through taxation, for those local services ?
Which is why so many village shops and pubs have closed.
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
The words 'mind your own fucking business' spring to mind.
Exactly! Cheek of these bozos. If we want to elect racist throwbacks into government we'll do it ourselves, thanks anyway.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
I blame reading the Sermon on the Mount a bit too often.
Where are the voices of Hollywood? Usually so quick to advertise their virtue and jump on any bandwagon to show they are on the side of the angels. Why aren’t former presidents, chiefs of defence staff, too generals hitting the news channels to say that this is a disgraceful proposal?
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
There's at least one GOP Rep (and former USAF general) who is not happy:
We don't have all the details yet, but it's sounding more like a Russian plan for Ukraine. Negotiating without Ukraine is a lot like Munich 1938. It makes Ukraine weaker & vulnerable to future Russian attacks. It's unacceptable & a surrender to Putin. We must have moral clarity.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
It is pretty galling. These reports are meant to be a sort of tool kit for those in a distant future to deal with a similar situation. How will this one help?
That's not realistic. It was about closure and moving on.
I think it is realistic. The 1967 (date could be wrong) Foot and Mouth Disease report contained all the information that Blair's Government would have needed to contain the later outbreak successfully. No pyres for example. That the idiots were either unaware of or chose to ignore the report is not the fault of its authors.
They like the idea of local services and they like the availability of local services.
But are they willing to pay, either directly or through taxation, for those local services ?
Which is why so many village shops and pubs have closed.
A new (second) shop just opened in my 'village'. It comes after a few hundred more houses were built, and I guess we will see if it survives. Allegedly Sainsbury's wanted to open it years ago, but it was blocked on the council by the owners of the other shop
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
If you run your finger across the closed lid of a Macbook, the matt anodised section has a much lower coefficient of friction than the mirrored-finish apple in the centre. It's counter-intuitive to the idea that smooth surfaces have less friction than rough ones.
I find that interesting.
Dimpled golf balls fly further than smooth ones, though i guess that is more about turbulent airflow than surface friction (see sharks above)
More interesting perhaps is gauge blocks, lumps of metal so smooth they stick together
Friction isn't a force - it's a combination of several. I don't really understand it ... but neither do the experts seem to.
Cold Self-Lubrication of Sliding Ice
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/1plj-7p4z The low kinetic friction between ice and numerous counterbodies is commonly attributed to an interfacial water layer, which is believed to originate from preexisting surface water or from melt water induced by high contact pressures or frictional heat. However, even the currently leading theory of frictional melting appears to defy direct experimental verification. Here we present molecular simulations of ice interfaces that reveal that ice surfaces liquefy without melting thermodynamically but predominantly by cold, displacement-driven amorphization. Despite effective self-lubrication, very small ice friction is found to require water to slip past a hydrophobic counterface—or an excess amount of water, produced by, e.g., extreme sliding velocities...
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
It is pretty galling. These reports are meant to be a sort of tool kit for those in a distant future to deal with a similar situation. How will this one help?
That's not realistic. It was about closure and moving on.
I think it is realistic. The 1967 (date could be wrong) Foot and Mouth Disease report contained all the information that Blair's Government would have needed to contain the later outbreak successfully. No pyres for example. That the idiots were either unaware of or chose to ignore the report is not the fault of its authors.
But that was so much less complex. You could get your arms around Foot and Mouth.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
A symbol being used by racists for racist purposes is sadly going to be seen as racist. It's a real shame. I certainly won't be rushing to put it up during the world cup. Great work, racists! You've shat on your own country's flag.
That's how I feel - I won't now fly the England flag because it's racist. It shouldn't be, I wish it wasn't, but it is now. However, as someone with mixed British heritage I always preferred the Union Jack anyway.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
But not so angry that you can be bothered to read the report? Their model clearly did not become "total gospel across Whitehall", as the report describes. As for whether it was "just deaths postponed":
4.225. It is wholly understandable that any government leader should wrestle with the profound decision as to whether to order a nationwide lockdown. Given the damaging societal, economic and educational consequences [...] enforcing a mandatory lockdown should be a measure of last resort. All viable measures short of a lockdown should be tried first and implemented early enough to allow time to analyse their effectiveness before a lockdown is imposed.
4.226. Had the many steps short of a mandatory lockdown been taken earlier in the pandemic, a mandatory UK-wide lockdown might not have become necessary or it might have been possible to reduce its length. To that extent, all four governments can be rightly criticised.
4.227. However, the Inquiry rejects the criticism that the four governments were wrong – in principle – to impose a lockdown. Indeed, the Inquiry accepts the consensus of the evidence before it that a mandatory lockdown should have been imposed one week earlier.
4.228. The UK government and devolved administrations had received clear and compelling advice by this time that the exponential growth in transmission, in the absence of a mandatory lockdown, would be likely to lead to loss of life on a scale that was reasonably to be regarded as unconscionable and unacceptable. No government, acting in accordance with its overarching duty to preserve life, could ignore such advice or tolerate the number of deaths envisaged. The governments’ laudable aim was therefore to minimise the numbers of deaths, particularly among the elderly and vulnerable, and to prevent the healthcare systems across the UK from collapsing at all costs. In this, they acted in common with many other countries.
4.229. It cannot be known whether – through their undoubted ability to expand at speed (including through the cancellation of elective care, the discharge of patients and the construction of Nightingale hospitals) and the incredible resourcefulness and commitment of their staff – the health services across the UK would have collapsed if there had been no lockdown. However, there was a serious risk, which the governments were reasonably entitled not to run, that exponential growth would lead to hospital cases of such a magnitude that, if the growth were not radically reduced, the point would inevitably be reached at which no health service would survive. At that point, the loss of life would be exacerbated by the collapse of the health system [...]
4.230. No reasonable government could effectively gamble the lives of its citizens on its own assessment that the restrictions of 16, 18 and 20 March 2020 might, of themselves, be enough. There was no time to wait.
4.231. Through their own acts and omissions, the four governments had made lockdown inevitable.
Comments
With enemies like that, who needs friends?
Defence Secretary failed to pay council tax on second home
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/11/21/john-healey-failed-to-pay-council-tax-on-second-home/
It is watching as a great power who claims to be on the side of good selling out a seeker nation for its own financial reasons.
This awful thing that is so so clearly “not right” and totally immoral is happening now and what’s worse is if, like me, you were someone who believed that the Us, whilst flawed, was fundamentally on the side of freedom and defending those with similar values against dictators and despots and evil regimes.
If it happens then it will be an indelible stain on the US.
(Watches a small squadron of pigs flying past.)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m002n15c/cricket-the-ashes-2025-highlights-first-test-day-one-highlights
As an example a fear from those living comfortable, even affluent, lives outside London who wouldn't be able to do so if they lived in London.
London's unaffordable housing, inequalities, congestion being among the factors of this.
These people might think of London as "a nice place for a visit but I wouldn't want to live there" and so distrust government ideas suggesting the rest of the country becomes more like London.
They've had a superpowers worth of slightly past it's sell buy date weapons fired at them. And destroyed or survived them all.
Which will require leadership from Starmer, Macron and Merz. And most of all from Donald Tusk.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15312979/Yachtsman-locked-27-years-stabbing-ex-wife-19-times-scissors-taken-trim-flowers-late-sons-grave.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
A shocking part of the Trump–Russia "peace plan" isn’t just what it does to Ukraine. It is what it quietly does to Poland.
Buried in point 9 is a sentence that looks harmless: European fighters will be stationed in Poland.
On paper, that sounds fine. In practice, though, it looks like Washington and Moscow have agreed over Poland’s head to limit the presence of foreign forces on Polish soil, including US forces, and to put a ceiling on NATO air power over the region.
If “European fighters” are explicitly named, the obvious Russian reading is simple: no US jets in Poland. And if Russia is co-signing language that defines who and what can be stationed here, it is also a de facto say over NATO air policing in the Baltics and the rest of the eastern flank.
That is not “Pax Americana.” That is the US accepting a Russian veto over the security posture of front-line allies.
For Polish politics this hits a very specific nerve. For years, Jarosław Kaczyński and now President Karol Nawrocki have built their doctrine on one core idea: forget Brussels, forget Berlin, our security rests on a direct, privileged relationship with Washington.
For a country that has spent a decade telling itself that American power is the only real guarantee, that should be a brutal wake-up call...
https://x.com/StuartDowell_/status/1991879108142285051
Under such conditions, the US 'commitment' to NATO becomes pointless from Europe's position.
The idea of 'the rest of the country becoming more like London' would be hell on earth for me.
1) Don't contradict Trump too strongly publicly.
2) Privately insist on reasonable sounding changes to the otherwise excellent plan, knowing Russia will reject them.
3) See Trump get annoyed at Russia for not accepting the revised plan.
My fear is point 2 fails and Trump doesn't accept the changes, knowing Putin will reject them. In which case we need to call his bluff and soldier on without that US. Trump won't like being irrelevant so will end up trying to salvage another deal in the future.
But also, perhaps, to a younger and more working class demographic who own their own homes in regional Britain.
https://x.com/carlbildt/status/1991848238438404529
Also absolutely characteristic of Trump.
Maybe irrationally, maybe not.
They need to remember that the one Hollywood star on Putin’s team is Stevan Segal, he’s a piece of shit, don’t be a Steven Segal.
In fact after Jews Anglicans in the UK are more likely to vote Conservative than any other faith group so those like me who are both Anglican and diehard Tories even now are the last group she should be annoying, she doesn't want to lose them to Reform or the LDs too.
Indeed at the last general election 40% of Conservatives said they were Anglicans, 37% had no religion and 9% were Roman Catholic and 2% free church evanglical Protestants.
By contrast only 12% of 2024 Labour voters were Anglicans, 56% had no religion and 7% Roman Catholic and 3% free church.
27% of Reform voters said they were Anglican, and 15% of LDs said they were Anglican.
https://www.electionanalysis.uk/uk-election-analysis-2024/section-2-voters-polls-and-results/religion-and-voting-behaviour-in-the-2024-general-election/
In a poll before the 2019 general election too 40% of Anglicans backed the Conservatives, more than any other faith group except the 44% of Jews who backed the Tories.
Labour did best with Muslims, 53% of whom backed Labour to just 17% of Anglicans backing Labour, the LDs did best with Buddhists, 15% of whom backed Swinson to 7% of Anglicans going LD and the SNP did best with Church of Scotland voters UK wide unsurprisingly (though the Scottish Tories led in Scotland with Church of Scotland voters overall)
https://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/religion-and-party-preference-in-2019/
Also the Tories as party of the family should be proposing to raise child benefit for all parents who claim it, even if they keep the 2 child cap for child benefit for those on UC
One way or another, he won't need money when he leaves the White House.
And bishops are the worst of them.
It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs.
I fucking hate bishops
I'd expect most Ukrainians who have moved abroad to stay there unless required to leave, and forcing them to return would IMO be unpopular even in countries with strong anti-migrant sentiment, especially if the peace was seen as unfair.
Particularly as I'm not sure why reconstruction efforts would yield any profits at all?
If EU funds rebuild a bunch of Ukraine infrastructure, it's just an expense. There's no profit beyond long-term viability of the Ukrainian economy. It's not direct.
It's one area I'd concede to Trump on order to get concessions on territory and the size of military etc. He is motivated by greed and won't read the fine print.
All three countries have large incentives to establish a nuclear deterrence to protect themselves from China, because the US is further confirmed as an unreliable ally.
https://nationalconservatism.org/natcon-uk-2023/presenters/marcus-walker/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/23/bishop-says-c-of-e-change-of-stance-on-sexuality-would-spark-exodus
https://care.org.uk/news/2023/10/11-bishops-refuse-to-endorse-plans-to-bless-same-sex-couples
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/19-september/news/uk/lords-spiritual-gather-behind-opposition-to-assisted-dying-bill
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2025/27-june/news/uk/more-than-250-clergy-voice-concern-at-dangerous-change-to-abortion-law#:~:text=These concerns are well set,abortion even at full term.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/26/justin-welby-chief-rabbi-labour-antisemitism
That clause was Putin there to appeal to him.
We don't have all the details yet, but it's sounding more like a Russian plan for Ukraine. Negotiating without Ukraine is a lot like Munich 1938. It makes Ukraine weaker & vulnerable to future Russian attacks. It's unacceptable & a surrender to Putin. We must have moral clarity.
https://x.com/RepDonBacon/status/1991677292691726336?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
But the majority of the US establishment is useless, which is much of the reason why Trump was twice elected President.
This questions whether they are currently an ally at all.
On a day when Nathan Gill has had a 10 year sentance for being a Putin stooge, what sentence is appropriate for this act of treachery?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/11/21/leon-coffee-subscriptions-cancelled
https://x.com/StateDept/status/1991869227758920010
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
🏴England flag
All GB adults: 39% has become racist symbol
White adults: 36%
Ethnic minority adults: 52%
🇬🇧UK flag
All GB adults: 19%
White adults: 18%
Ethnic minority adults: 26%'
https://x.com/YouGov/status/1991811531424547030?s=20
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
% saying 🏴England flag is a racist symbol
Green: 71%
Labour: 58%
Lib Dem: 53%
Con: 19%
Reform: 8%'
https://x.com/YouGov/status/1991811542690480253?s=20
https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2025/11/cps-challenges-quashing-of-quran-burning-conviction?v=21
Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/11/21/lord-gove-23000-covid-deaths-inquiry-boris-johnson-pandemic
Very Christmassy: 6%
Fairly Christmassy: 24%
Not very Christmassy: 36%
Not Christmassy at all: 33%
https://x.com/YouGov/status/1991558332998729731?s=20
More interesting perhaps is gauge blocks, lumps of metal so smooth they stick together
On St Georges Day or a major sporting event = Non-racist
On a lamp post or mini-roundabout, or a Tommy Robinson rally = racist.
Swastikas are also context specific. On a Hindu temple = not racist. On a flag at a rally = racist.
No shit...
I suppose you got the choice of being a farm hand at more than one farm.
Personally I prefer the opportunities a car brings for work, retail, leisure and public services.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
So we'll learn all the wrong lessons from the inquiry, and the next time will make the same mistakes, except worse. And in the meantime we will have wasted hundreds of millions and several years on this pointless jamboree, which will only have enriched lawyers and other parasites.
You're not the only one who is angry about this.
In this analogy you're the Hindu and left leaning voters the Europeans. Unfortunately too many people in England have now co-opted the flag in a similar, although thankfully less genocidal way, thus tainting it. Sad, but true. Maybe we can go back to the pre-1066 Wessex Wyvern as a fresh start.
"The report doesn't support my opinions"
See? So much clearer.
Germany's back in trade surplus overall, but the China trend is clear...
But are they willing to pay, either directly or through taxation, for those local services ?
Which is why so many village shops and pubs have closed.
I don't really understand it ... but neither do the experts seem to.
Cold Self-Lubrication of Sliding Ice
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/1plj-7p4z
The low kinetic friction between ice and numerous counterbodies is commonly attributed to an interfacial water layer, which is believed to originate from preexisting surface water or from melt water induced by high contact pressures or frictional heat. However, even the currently leading theory of frictional melting appears to defy direct experimental verification. Here we present molecular simulations of ice interfaces that reveal that ice surfaces liquefy without melting thermodynamically but predominantly by cold, displacement-driven amorphization. Despite effective self-lubrication, very small ice friction is found to require water to slip past a hydrophobic counterface—or an excess amount of water, produced by, e.g., extreme sliding velocities...
4.225. It is wholly understandable that any government leader should wrestle with the profound decision as to whether to order a nationwide lockdown. Given the damaging societal, economic and educational consequences [...] enforcing a mandatory lockdown should be a measure of last resort. All viable measures short of a lockdown should be tried first and implemented early enough to allow time to analyse their effectiveness before a lockdown is imposed.
4.226. Had the many steps short of a mandatory lockdown been taken earlier in the pandemic, a mandatory UK-wide lockdown might not have become necessary or it might have been possible to reduce its length. To that extent, all four governments can be rightly criticised.
4.227. However, the Inquiry rejects the criticism that the four governments were wrong – in principle – to impose a lockdown. Indeed, the Inquiry accepts the consensus of the evidence before it that a mandatory lockdown should have been imposed one week earlier.
4.228. The UK government and devolved administrations had received clear and compelling advice by this time that the exponential growth in transmission, in the absence of a mandatory lockdown, would be likely to lead to loss of life on a scale that was reasonably to be regarded as unconscionable and unacceptable. No government, acting in accordance with its overarching duty to preserve life, could ignore such advice or tolerate the number of deaths envisaged. The governments’ laudable aim was therefore to minimise the numbers of deaths, particularly among the elderly and vulnerable, and to prevent the healthcare systems across the UK from collapsing at all costs. In this, they acted in common with many other countries.
4.229. It cannot be known whether – through their undoubted ability to expand at speed (including through the cancellation of elective care, the discharge of patients and the construction of Nightingale hospitals) and the incredible resourcefulness and commitment of their staff – the health services across the UK would have collapsed if there had been no lockdown. However, there was a serious risk, which the governments were reasonably entitled not to run, that exponential growth would lead to hospital cases of such a magnitude that, if the growth were not radically reduced, the point would inevitably be reached at which no health service would survive. At that point, the loss of life would be exacerbated by the collapse of the health system [...]
4.230. No reasonable government could effectively gamble the lives of its citizens on its own assessment that the restrictions of 16, 18 and 20 March 2020 might, of themselves, be enough. There was no time to wait.
4.231. Through their own acts and omissions, the four governments had made lockdown inevitable.