I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
He got chopped for it, too.
And his true followers are a PITA. Just look at the Quakers. Annoying social consciences, pointing out uncomfortable truths. Great folk.
As for Cookie's remarks on the bishs being in the HoL, just try evicting them from the HoL, and see which political parties object most. (Plus there have been plenty of raging rightie bishs and for all I know still are.)
I would have expected it to be the left wing parties would be crossest?
You remarked earlier that bishops tend to be conservative socially - but ai have never heard a bishop be anything but enthusiastic about immigration; I have never heard a bishop talk abiut the importance of defence; I have never heard a biahop talk about law n order issues from anything like a conservative slant. I've genuinely never heard a bishop be anything but left wing.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Siding with Putin?
Who’s asking you, Mummy’s boy ?
Not you, Trump-Admiring Zealot! I was referring to Trump himself!
"What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset?"
I wasn’t asking you. I was asking Richard. Has mummy called you for dinner yet ? Saddo. Go back to your basement.
Not nice, Cookie.
me?
I thought it was a pet name for Taz?
My wife has a few pet names for me. Cookie is not one.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
He got chopped for it, too.
And his true followers are a PITA. Just look at the Quakers. Annoying social consciences, pointing out uncomfortable truths. Great folk.
As for Cookie's remarks on the bishs being in the HoL, just try evicting them from the HoL, and see which political parties object most. (Plus there have been plenty of raging rightie bishs and for all I know still are.)
I would have expected it to be the left wing parties would be crossest?
You remarked earlier that bishops tend to be conservative socially - but ai have never heard a bishop be anything but enthusiastic about immigration; I have never heard a bishop talk abiut the importance of defence; I have never heard a biahop talk about law n order issues from anything like a conservative slant. I've genuinely never heard a bishop be anything but left wing.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
This is the study you object to and referenced by the inquiry.
I have no idea if the numbers stack up, whether if they had locked down a week earlier they would have saved 23,000 deaths in the first wave, rather than, say 10,000 or 40,000. I would hope the peer reviewers have the knowledge to assess the methods and data.
The principle is easy to understand however. The purpose of non medical interventions ie lockdowns is to fix the infection rate and stop it growing exponentially. If you are going to lockdown down at all - and bearing in mind the replication rate and mortality rate of COVID 29 made non medical interventions inevitable - you ALWAYS want to make them as early as you can at the lowest possible infection rate. This seems to me a very important learning for any future epidemic.
The idea that a one week difference would make a difference of 23,000 lives doesn't need any thought to be considered complete modelling pie in the sky..But let's not waste another 200 million quid..🧐💩
Rate of Spread x Mortality Rate
It was spreading fast, and pre-vaccine it was killing or hospitalising lots of those who caught it.
Ah! The R number..such a solid scientific concept no-one refers to it anymore..😏
Are you on drugs? Is this some attempt at humour? The R number remains a basic idea taught in any epidemiology 101 course.
Also ecology, etc. Where I was taught it longer ago than I like. Which shows how basic it is.
Just watched Chris Mason interview Keir Starmer in South Africa where his one question repeated several times was what did he feel about being the most unpopular Labour leader since records began?
Wouldn't you think the BBC's political editor could think of something more interesting to ask a Prime Minister?
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Siding with Putin?
Who’s asking you, Mummy’s boy ?
Not you, Trump-Admiring Zealot! I was referring to Trump himself!
"What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset?"
I wasn’t asking you. I was asking Richard. Has mummy called you for dinner yet ? Saddo. Go back to your basement.
Not nice, Cookie.
me?
Oops, sorry, was suffering from lack of dinner and general dimwittedness. Fervent apologies. The correct recipient got it anyway, evidently.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
Cough. Afghanistan.
Disaster.
The Afghan surrender and release of the Taliban prisoners was a Trump initiative, even if the final scuttle was under Biden.
Just watched Chris Mason interview Keir Starmer in South Africa where his one question repeated several times was what did he feel about being the most unpopular Labour leader since records began?
Wouldn't you think the BBC's political editor could think of something more interesting to ask a Prime Minister?
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
Mass migration poses an existential threat to Western civilization and undermines the stability of key American allies.
Today the State Department instructed U.S. embassies to report on the human rights implications and public safety impacts of mass migration.
Mass migration is a human rights concern. Western nations have endured crime waves, terror attacks, sexual assaults, and the displacement of communities.
U.S. officials will urge governments to take bold action and defend citizens against the threats posed by mass migration.
Presumably he's talking about the mass migration of Russian troops into Ukraine.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Siding with Putin?
Who’s asking you, Mummy’s boy ?
Not you, Trump-Admiring Zealot! I was referring to Trump himself!
"What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset?"
I wasn’t asking you. I was asking Richard. Has mummy called you for dinner yet ? Saddo. Go back to your basement.
Lovely. There was a poster on here who called me an objectionable bully. Can’t remember who it could possibly have been…
Me.
Although I’m quite cool with you these days. I never drove anyone off this site.
Do you think I should just ignore his passive aggressive shit and just laugh it off.
You accused me of driving Isam of the site. Which is…quite the claim. Given he’s still very much on it.
If the alternative is playground level shit like you posted then yes, you should ignore him.
Nah, I’ll give it the sad loser mummy’s boy back.
Turn the other cheek. No. Playground level works both ways. I’ve been posting all afternoon how I think this deal is a disgrace yet this retard thinks I’m a Trump fan 🤷♂️
You did drive Isam from the site. He returned. All cool and I think you’re now a valuable contributor here. Things change. You may want some beef with me. I have no beef with you, I enjoy your contributions these days,
I don’t think I did but, either way, back off Sunil
Or else what ? Who appointed you his knight in shining armour ?
If he doesn’t bother me or abuse me there’s no problem.
If he does then fuck him, little sad Mummy’s boy.
He wasn’t abusing you. That’s the problem. He didn’t accuse you of being a Putin supporter. He accused Trump of that. The worst he did was call you a “Trump Admirer”. Is that really “abuse”?
Err, yes. Especially as I rarely comment bout Trump. Not the first time either. A pattern of behaviour. I’m sure you going into bat for PBs incel is much valued by him 😂
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
He got chopped for it, too.
And his true followers are a PITA. Just look at the Quakers. Annoying social consciences, pointing out uncomfortable truths. Great folk.
As for Cookie's remarks on the bishs being in the HoL, just try evicting them from the HoL, and see which political parties object most. (Plus there have been plenty of raging rightie bishs and for all I know still are.)
I would have expected it to be the left wing parties would be crossest?
You remarked earlier that bishops tend to be conservative socially - but ai have never heard a bishop be anything but enthusiastic about immigration; I have never heard a bishop talk abiut the importance of defence; I have never heard a biahop talk about law n order issues from anything like a conservative slant. I've genuinely never heard a bishop be anything but left wing.
Matthew 25:35-40 is pretty clear.
Pretty clear to anyone who actually reads Jesus's most complete sermon.
"Lord Gove questions 23,000 Covid deaths claim Former minister rejects inquiry’s conclusion that a ‘toxic culture’ blighted government during the pandemic"
It is just absolutely appalling that Ferguson's model of 23,000 saved is just repeated verbatim without any caveats as if it was some gospel truth by the inquiry conclusions.
We needed an inquiry that questioned whether that model was even remotely right or useful and an explanation of how one person or team's academic work became total gospel across Whitehall. We needed an inquiry that questioned whether even if this figure was remotely accurate and could be relied whether it was actually just deaths postponed until the second wave. So many questions about data and modelling and none of them seems to have troubled this inquiry or its Chair.
I am so angry about all this I can hardly type frankly.
This is the study you object to and referenced by the inquiry.
I have no idea if the numbers stack up, whether if they had locked down a week earlier they would have saved 23,000 deaths in the first wave, rather than, say 10,000 or 40,000. I would hope the peer reviewers have the knowledge to assess the methods and data.
The principle is easy to understand however. The purpose of non medical interventions ie lockdowns is to fix the infection rate and stop it growing exponentially. If you are going to lockdown down at all - and bearing in mind the replication rate and mortality rate of COVID 29 made non medical interventions inevitable - you ALWAYS want to make them as early as you can at the lowest possible infection rate. This seems to me a very important learning for any future epidemic.
The idea that a one week difference would make a difference of 23,000 lives doesn't need any thought to be considered complete modelling pie in the sky..But let's not waste another 200 million quid..🧐💩
Rate of Spread x Mortality Rate
It was spreading fast, and pre-vaccine it was killing or hospitalising lots of those who caught it.
Ah! The R number..such a solid scientific concept no-one refers to it anymore..😏
It’s a well established epidemiological concept referred to constantly by epidemiologists. We’re not in the emergency phase of a pandemic which is why Karen on Facebook isn’t posting about it right now. There being a contrarian and there’s not knowing what you’re taking about.
Putin backs the Ukraine capitulation deal... what a surprise.
However I think that this magic deal suggests that the Kremlin is uncomfortable with the ongoing state of the war. They've clearly just phoned Trump and said 'present this'.
Europe needs to stand as one to say we cannot accept this. It’s rewarding aggression. It’s not acceptable.
Well it's not acceptable at all, but if Ukraine accepts the deal then they should get all of our support.
Whatever the outcome we need to ramp up the sanctions on Russia and ask all the Russian nationals in the UK to leave.
I was working on the assumption that if the 'deal' goes through then Trump will immediately lift all sanctions and then threaten anyone who keeps them with more tariffs and tantrums.
Quite possible a lot of Europe will huff and puff and then decide that cheap gas and oil from Russia isn't such a bad thing. After all, there's "peace now".
I'm possibly just in a cynical frame of mind tonight.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
He got chopped for it, too.
And his true followers are a PITA. Just look at the Quakers. Annoying social consciences, pointing out uncomfortable truths. Great folk.
As for Cookie's remarks on the bishs being in the HoL, just try evicting them from the HoL, and see which political parties object most. (Plus there have been plenty of raging rightie bishs and for all I know still are.)
I would have expected it to be the left wing parties would be crossest?
You remarked earlier that bishops tend to be conservative socially - but ai have never heard a bishop be anything but enthusiastic about immigration; I have never heard a bishop talk abiut the importance of defence; I have never heard a biahop talk about law n order issues from anything like a conservative slant. I've genuinely never heard a bishop be anything but left wing.
I was, to be fair, talking about the political parties who would object. HYUFD did come up with a nice menu which showed it was a pretty mixed conclusion - not the simple answer if the bishs were all seen as raving lefties.
Bish aren't supposed to nbe in favour of carpet-bombing enemy populations, but rather few actually stood up on their hind legs during WW2 and said no, this isn't sporting stuff that AM Harris is doing. Mind, that was a long time ago - but social conservatism has remained a thing. Just look at bishs when it comes to gay marriage, contrary to the policy and laws passed by HMGs of various hues. Edfit: very mixed as I understand it. It's not as ifd it isn't the official state sect, after all.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
Putin backs the Ukraine capitulation deal... what a surprise.
However I think that this magic deal suggests that the Kremlin is uncomfortable with the ongoing state of the war. They've clearly just phoned Trump and said 'present this'.
Europe needs to stand as one to say we cannot accept this. It’s rewarding aggression. It’s not acceptable.
Well it's not acceptable at all, but if Ukraine accepts the deal then they should get all of our support.
Whatever the outcome we need to ramp up the sanctions on Russia and ask all the Russian nationals in the UK to leave.
I was working on the assumption that if the 'deal' goes through then Trump will immediately lift all sanctions and then threaten anyone who keeps them with more tariffs and tantrums.
Quite possible a lot of Europe will huff and puff and then decide that cheap gas and oil from Russia isn't such a bad thing. After all, there's "peace now".
I'm possibly just in a cynical frame of mind tonight.
Which is why Europe and the West has to stand firm today.
The complete failure to understand Trump - exemplified by Mandelson - is utterly shameful.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
Just watched Chris Mason interview Keir Starmer in South Africa where his one question repeated several times was what did he feel about being the most unpopular Labour leader since records began?
Wouldn't you think the BBC's political editor could think of something more interesting to ask a Prime Minister?
Why - it's true
In South Africa? For instance, about why SKS is there? UK interests there?
Used to be very very very important to Tories, as I recall very well. Especially the Young Cons. Hang Nelson Mandela and all that. Lots of scope for possible criticism of SKS there, given the deep knowledge of SA shown by the Tories.
Actually, this has got me wondering, to your credit, so I am off to look it up to find out what on earth he is there for. Good night.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
We don't do any of things because we're scared of upsetting Trump.
And we should have the fucking courage of our convictions and do what is right for a change.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
"The Tories would win just 14 seats if an election were called now, according to polling circulating inside Conservative Party headquarters and leaked to The Telegraph. The research suggests the Tories would be obliterated in what one insider described as an “existential threat” to the most successful party in British electoral history. The findings – which predict Reform UK would win a 46-seat majority – will inevitably raise serious questions over Kemi Badenoch’s leadership of the party. One Tory HQ insider said the results showed the party was in danger of “being consigned to the history books”."
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
Biden would not have arranged something similar. Surely you can see that?
Putin backs the Ukraine capitulation deal... what a surprise.
However I think that this magic deal suggests that the Kremlin is uncomfortable with the ongoing state of the war. They've clearly just phoned Trump and said 'present this'.
Europe needs to stand as one to say we cannot accept this. It’s rewarding aggression. It’s not acceptable.
Well it's not acceptable at all, but if Ukraine accepts the deal then they should get all of our support.
Whatever the outcome we need to ramp up the sanctions on Russia and ask all the Russian nationals in the UK to leave.
I was working on the assumption that if the 'deal' goes through then Trump will immediately lift all sanctions and then threaten anyone who keeps them with more tariffs and tantrums.
Quite possible a lot of Europe will huff and puff and then decide that cheap gas and oil from Russia isn't such a bad thing. After all, there's "peace now".
I'm possibly just in a cynical frame of mind tonight.
Which is why Europe and the West has to stand firm today.
The complete failure to understand Trump - exemplified by Mandelson - is utterly shameful.
I'm trying to remember all the previous times they stood firm against anyone of note.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
Just watched Chris Mason interview Keir Starmer in South Africa where his one question repeated several times was what did he feel about being the most unpopular Labour leader since records began?
Wouldn't you think the BBC's political editor could think of something more interesting to ask a Prime Minister?
Why - it's true
In South Africa? For instance, about why SKS is there? UK interests there?
Used to be very very very important to Tories, as I recall very well. Especially the Young Cons. Hang Nelson Mandela and all that. Lots of scope for possible criticism of SKS there, given the deep knowledge of SA shown by the Tories.
I've never met anyone professionally C of E who wasn't a raging far lefty. And bishops are the worst of them. It's not actually their politics that grates. I have friends if the far left. But my far left friends don't tend to hold that their views hold any sort of extra weight because of their jobs. I fucking hate bishops
The guy who founded Christianity was a raging far lefty. Makes sense that his followers would be.
He got chopped for it, too.
And his true followers are a PITA. Just look at the Quakers. Annoying social consciences, pointing out uncomfortable truths. Great folk.
As for Cookie's remarks on the bishs being in the HoL, just try evicting them from the HoL, and see which political parties object most. (Plus there have been plenty of raging rightie bishs and for all I know still are.)
I would have expected it to be the left wing parties would be crossest?
You remarked earlier that bishops tend to be conservative socially - but ai have never heard a bishop be anything but enthusiastic about immigration; I have never heard a bishop talk abiut the importance of defence; I have never heard a biahop talk about law n order issues from anything like a conservative slant. I've genuinely never heard a bishop be anything but left wing.
Bishops may be pro immigrants, as indeed is the Pope but bishops are almost all anti euthanasia, more C of E bishops voted against same sex marriage than for it and plenty of bishops are anti abortion too or at least want to reduce the time limit for it.
Bishops also take part in remembrance day and supported the war against the Nazis for instance and they have also condemned Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Bishops tend to oppose the death penalty and back rehabilitation of offenders but that does not mean they don't support prison for serious offenders https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/1754
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Indeed.
But if we’re to ‘learn lessons’ then we need to acknowledge that the pathetic and spineless behaviour started before that.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
And Trump did exactly what to persuade Putin to withdraw from Crimea amd Donbas during his (Trump's) first term?
I bet nobody's ever said that before! Bettingwise I now realise that she could be Labour leader and she could be PM. I had hitherto put her in the Burnham camp (Zero chance), but I'm now a bit fearful. I presume that in the event of a random bus hitting a random toolmakers son that the deputy becomes the leader, and thus I guess PM. And I can't see Labour doing the PM kaleidoscope...
Oh, the stresses of political betting!
The Labour Party doesn't work like that. The deputy leader runs the election for the successor, there's no automatic succession
(To be clear I'm not hoping anyone falls under a bus) Supposing Starmer did fall under a bus. who would be Labour leader? And who would KC3 summon to the palace? I presume it's Powell. And if that's right and she's PM are Labour really going to change it?
It might be Lammy too. (And I think that would be the right choice for the King - slightly avoiding politics)
If Starmer fell under a bus the post of PM would remain vacant until a new Labour leader was elected. Various people would carry out the functions of a PM until then. The only functions we need a PM to do is to launch the nukes and hire/fire cabinet ministers.
I don't think the post of PM can be allowed to be vacant.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Siding with Putin?
Who’s asking you, Mummy’s boy ?
Not you, Trump-Admiring Zealot! I was referring to Trump himself!
"What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset?"
I wasn’t asking you. I was asking Richard. Has mummy called you for dinner yet ? Saddo. Go back to your basement.
Lovely. There was a poster on here who called me an objectionable bully. Can’t remember who it could possibly have been…
Me.
Although I’m quite cool with you these days. I never drove anyone off this site.
Do you think I should just ignore his passive aggressive shit and just laugh it off.
You accused me of driving Isam of the site. Which is…quite the claim. Given he’s still very much on it.
If the alternative is playground level shit like you posted then yes, you should ignore him.
Nah, I’ll give it the sad loser mummy’s boy back.
Turn the other cheek. No. Playground level works both ways. I’ve been posting all afternoon how I think this deal is a disgrace yet this retard thinks I’m a Trump fan 🤷♂️
You did drive Isam from the site. He returned. All cool and I think you’re now a valuable contributor here. Things change. You may want some beef with me. I have no beef with you, I enjoy your contributions these days,
I don’t think I did but, either way, back off Sunil
Or else what ? Who appointed you his knight in shining armour ?
If he doesn’t bother me or abuse me there’s no problem.
If he does then fuck him, little sad Mummy’s boy.
He wasn’t abusing you. That’s the problem. He didn’t accuse you of being a Putin supporter. He accused Trump of that. The worst he did was call you a “Trump Admirer”. Is that really “abuse”?
Err, yes. Especially as I rarely comment bout Trump. Not the first time either. A pattern of behaviour. I’m sure you going into bat for PBs incel is much valued by him 😂
Note: the subject Taz still responds to the stimulus as predicted!
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
And Trump did exactly what to persuade Putin to withdraw from Crimea amd Donbas during his (Trump's) first term?
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
People are getting excited by MTG going against Trump but she isn’t doing it from a position of enlightenment, she is representing the next, worse, wave in the GOP - AMAO, America First and Only. She comes from the isolationist, Christian fundamentalist, anti-Semitic wing. She’s more aligned with Nick Fuentes so whilst I hope a MAGA split would make them unelectable if they are elected it can get worse - Iranian fundamentalist worse.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
0. We give Ukraine the design for the nuke that we designed with the US in the 1960s. The one that was tested with high burn, power station plutonium, so called civil plutonium (from Calder Hall)
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Indeed.
But if we’re to ‘learn lessons’ then we need to acknowledge that the pathetic and spineless behaviour started before that.
If we're to learn lessons, then maybe we should with all the people who supported Trump admitting they got it very wrong.
I bet nobody's ever said that before! Bettingwise I now realise that she could be Labour leader and she could be PM. I had hitherto put her in the Burnham camp (Zero chance), but I'm now a bit fearful. I presume that in the event of a random bus hitting a random toolmakers son that the deputy becomes the leader, and thus I guess PM. And I can't see Labour doing the PM kaleidoscope...
Oh, the stresses of political betting!
The Labour Party doesn't work like that. The deputy leader runs the election for the successor, there's no automatic succession
(To be clear I'm not hoping anyone falls under a bus) Supposing Starmer did fall under a bus. who would be Labour leader? And who would KC3 summon to the palace? I presume it's Powell. And if that's right and she's PM are Labour really going to change it?
It might be Lammy too. (And I think that would be the right choice for the King - slightly avoiding politics)
If Starmer fell under a bus the post of PM would remain vacant until a new Labour leader was elected. Various people would carry out the functions of a PM until then. The only functions we need a PM to do is to launch the nukes and hire/fire cabinet ministers.
I don't think the post of PM can be allowed to be vacant.
It's not like king or the US President. The position can be vacant. For short periods. However, you're right that it wouldn't stay vacant for the time needed for a new Labour leader to be elected. Someone would be chosen as PM: whoever the Labour Party sent to the palace.
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
Exactly, it's bad enough that anyone supported Trump first time around, but those that still support him or just make excuses and "two-sides" it, well they might as well put on the armbands and jackboots now, we've got their number.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
Interesting and perhaps surprising thaht Farage has apparently come out against the Trump peace deal. Putting some distance between himself and both Trump and his former Welsh party leader?
With current trajectory of party movement and Overton window shift, by the general election Reform and Labour will be fighting for what will have become the centre ground of social democracy, high spending, distance from Trump's America and closed borders.
"The Tories would win just 14 seats if an election were called now, according to polling circulating inside Conservative Party headquarters and leaked to The Telegraph. The research suggests the Tories would be obliterated in what one insider described as an “existential threat” to the most successful party in British electoral history. The findings – which predict Reform UK would win a 46-seat majority – will inevitably raise serious questions over Kemi Badenoch’s leadership of the party. One Tory HQ insider said the results showed the party was in danger of “being consigned to the history books”."
Leaked polling and private polling are just polling. There is no magic polling with special status. And no polling about events in 2029 are any use at all except as fun for PB followers.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
Interesting and perhaps surprising thaht Farage has apparently come out against the Trump peace deal. Putting some distance between himself and both Trump and his former Welsh party leader?
With current trajectory of party movement and Overton window shift, by the general election Reform and Labour will be fighting for what will have become the centre ground of social democracy, high spending, distance from Trump's America and closed borders.
By the time of the next UK general election in 2029 there may even be a Democrat President again
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
That’s not maximalist.
Where’s the definition of the Ukraine/Republic of China border?
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
Israel is very opposed to UN motions saying you shouldn't seize territory from others by force.
China abstained, but didn't go as far as voting against.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
Ultimately, the USA and Israel will be left as each others’ only allies. Two cheeks, one arse, vying with each other to spray as much shit over the world as they can.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
Israel is very opposed to UN motions saying you shouldn't seize territory from others by force.
China abstained, but didn't go as far as voting against.
The same Israel that has continually been attacked by others. Funny how such an 'aggressive' country is only the size of Wales.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
How are they anti-Western in a way that, say, Charles de Gaulle wasn’t?
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
Trump is taking money off the voters using tariffs, then asking them to be grateful when he gives them paart of it back.
American voters are so dumb it will probably work.
I bet nobody's ever said that before! Bettingwise I now realise that she could be Labour leader and she could be PM. I had hitherto put her in the Burnham camp (Zero chance), but I'm now a bit fearful. I presume that in the event of a random bus hitting a random toolmakers son that the deputy becomes the leader, and thus I guess PM. And I can't see Labour doing the PM kaleidoscope...
Oh, the stresses of political betting!
The Labour Party doesn't work like that. The deputy leader runs the election for the successor, there's no automatic succession
(To be clear I'm not hoping anyone falls under a bus) Supposing Starmer did fall under a bus. who would be Labour leader? And who would KC3 summon to the palace? I presume it's Powell. And if that's right and she's PM are Labour really going to change it?
It might be Lammy too. (And I think that would be the right choice for the King - slightly avoiding politics)
If Starmer fell under a bus the post of PM would remain vacant until a new Labour leader was elected. Various people would carry out the functions of a PM until then. The only functions we need a PM to do is to launch the nukes and hire/fire cabinet ministers.
I don't think the post of PM can be allowed to be vacant.
It's not like king or the US President. The position can be vacant. For short periods. However, you're right that it wouldn't stay vacant for the time needed for a new Labour leader to be elected. Someone would be chosen as PM: whoever the Labour Party sent to the palace.
It would be the DPM unless he indicated he was going to run for the leadership in the forthcoming election. In which case probably be the Home Sec with same caveat.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
A symbol being used by racists for racist purposes is sadly going to be seen as racist. It's a real shame. I certainly won't be rushing to put it up during the world cup. Great work, racists! You've shat on your own country's flag.
That's how I feel - I won't now fly the England flag because it's racist. It shouldn't be, I wish it wasn't, but it is now. However, as someone with mixed British heritage I always preferred the Union Jack anyway.
I bet you regularly flew the English flag before. All the time. 24/7.
No one use to; it was always the Union Jack. See (for example) the England fans in the 1969 film The Italian Job.
'Most Green, Labour and Lib Dem voters see the England flag as a racist symbol. Only a minority from any party say the same of the UK flag, although Greens are still split
A symbol being used by racists for racist purposes is sadly going to be seen as racist. It's a real shame. I certainly won't be rushing to put it up during the world cup. Great work, racists! You've shat on your own country's flag.
That's how I feel - I won't now fly the England flag because it's racist. It shouldn't be, I wish it wasn't, but it is now. However, as someone with mixed British heritage I always preferred the Union Jack anyway.
I bet you regularly flew the English flag before. All the time. 24/7.
No one use to; it was always the Union Jack. See (for example) the England fans in the 1969 film The Italian Job.
That’s given me an excuse to watch that film again.
Marvellous film. My wife is away next week with her friend in New York, so I need some stuff to watch,
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
How are they anti-Western in a way that, say, Charles de Gaulle wasn’t?
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
Ultimately, the USA and Israel will be left as each others’ only allies. Two cheeks, one arse, vying with each other to spray as much shit over the world as they can.
I'm rather more forgiving of Israel. And I can understand both countries' sense that the world treats them with a lot of irrational hatred. Americans are generally pro Ukraine and anti Russia. Why can't they all see how venal and corrupt the President is.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
It's unclear to me why we have never publicised our maximalist demands.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
We kinda have publicised our maximalist demands. We've supported United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/7, which says, among other things, "demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and its demand for an immediate cessation of the hostilities by the Russian Federation against Ukraine, in particular of any attacks against civilians and civilian objects". (The US voted against, along with Russia, Belarus, Israel, Hungary, Eritrea, Mali, North Korea and some others.)
It's depressing that Israel and the US now count among the usual suspects.
Israel is very opposed to UN motions saying you shouldn't seize territory from others by force.
China abstained, but didn't go as far as voting against.
The same Israel that has continually been attacked by others. Funny how such an 'aggressive' country is only the size of Wales.
The 22 Arab League states = 13,000,000 sq. km. in area Israel = 20,000 sq. km. in area
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
Trump the worst president? He's not even the worst president of the 2020s.
So, you think Biden was worse? Are you completely bonkers? The US still had the rule of law under Biden. The US still had friendly relations with its allies under Biden.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
Trump is taking money off the voters using tariffs, then asking them to be grateful when he gives them paart of it back.
American voters are so dumb it will probably work.
I don’t think so. Look at the recent votes. Both congress and local. Republicans in the mud. It’s cost of,living. Hence the rowing back on tariffs on beef, coffee and other food stuffs.
Oh, and dole out tariff checks to everyone, well that’s not helping the fight against inflation. Bessent is no fool. You’d think hed be guiding the Trumpdozer.
Ukraine has really had a shitty time of it. One of the most dumped-on nations in history.
Decimated by deliberate famine under Stalin, one of the biggest sources of war dead in WW2, under the Soviet yoke for decades culminating in bearing the brunt of the Chernobyl tragedy, run like a Mafia state post independence by a series of the most corrupt governments anywhere in the post Soviet sphere, then ground down by Russian aggression for a decade, subject to a bloody and ruinous invasion, and now sold down the river for money by the USA.
So what’s your beloved EU doing to support it ?
More than Trump.
Still not enough but at least they are not selling them down the river like the US are at the moment.
On a day that a British politician was rightfully imprisoned for taking bribes from Russia it is a shame to think that Trump will never receive a similar sentence for the same crime but on a much larger scale.
More than Trump doesn’t mean it’s adequate
This deal, it it’s as described, is diabolical and the European nations need to step up over this, peace at all costs is simply surrender
You’re usually a rational poster. What proof do you have Trump is a Russian asset ?
Because he acts as Putin’s butt boy.
This proposal is easy to reject, as Ukraine would cease to exist as an independent country.
So reject it and the EU step up and support rather than tokenism
And Trump withdraws the use of all US made weaponry across Ukraine and the EU
Trump has all the cards, but history will record him as not only US worst president but a malign influence across the world
So as I say, we respnd by swithcing off US access to the Early warning systems at Fylingdales. It works both ways.
In fact, we end all security co-operation with the USA, as it is a hostile power under Trump.
That's an exaggeration and an overreaction.
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
No. The GOP is now an anti-Western, fascist party, which sees itself as having more in common with foreign autocracies than it has with first world democracies.
How are they anti-Western in a way that, say, Charles de Gaulle wasn’t?
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
The EU and UKs pathetic and spineless behaviour in relation to Trump has led us to this point .
The EU and UKs desperate attempts to soothe Trumps ego has backfired .
Obama announced the pivot to Asia in 2011, the first invasion was in 2014 and was mostly greeted with a vague shrug. Mitt Romney was widely mocked (including here) when he brought Russia up in 2012. The issues here are far older than Trump.
They are, yes, but the big issue now is Trump. Agreed?
Why on earth is he offering 2000:USD stimulus checks instead of paying the debt down, madness.
Trump is taking money off the voters using tariffs, then asking them to be grateful when he gives them paart of it back.
American voters are so dumb it will probably work.
I don’t think so. Look at the recent votes. Both congress and local. Republicans in the mud. It’s cost of,living. Hence the rowing back on tariffs on beef, coffee and other food stuffs.
Oh, and dole out tariff checks to everyone, well that’s not helping the fight against inflation. Bessent is no fool. You’d think hed be guiding the Trumpdozer.
I really don't understand why the UK, the EU and Ukraine don't put forward a plan for peace in Ukraine.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections. 2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague 3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea 4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border 5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
We don't do any of things because we're scared of upsetting Trump.
And we should have the fucking courage of our convictions and do what is right for a change.
I agree absolutely. We ought to know by now that he will sell us down the river anyway. It would likely be less costly if we made a stand now.
And there's a fair possibility he would fold.
The only thing preventing it is the disunity and distrust on our side of the Atlantic.
Comments
Disaster.
Wouldn't you think the BBC's political editor could think of something more interesting to ask a Prime Minister?
I think Trump simply thinks he's cut a cracking deal.
I don't agree with it but would the opprobrium have been quite the same if, say, Biden had arranged something similar?
Some folk prefer Republican Jesus.
Leaked polling shows ‘existential threat’ to the party – and a huge victory for Reform"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/11/21/tories-on-course-for-just-14-seats-at-election
Quite possible a lot of Europe will huff and puff and then decide that cheap gas and oil from Russia isn't such a bad thing. After all, there's "peace now".
I'm possibly just in a cynical frame of mind tonight.
Bish aren't supposed to nbe in favour of carpet-bombing enemy populations, but rather few actually stood up on their hind legs during WW2 and said no, this isn't sporting stuff that AM Harris is doing. Mind, that was a long time ago - but social conservatism has remained a thing. Just look at bishs when it comes to gay marriage, contrary to the policy and laws passed by HMGs of various hues. Edfit: very mixed as I understand it. It's not as ifd it isn't the official state sect, after all.
It's time to stop being the ones who react, and start setting the agenda. You aren't going to get any support from the US, so it's time to disrupt the OODA loop.
Ukrainian attacks in Russia are one part of this, but instead of negotiating from a Russian plan, which is also a classic example of anchoring, it's time to start over:
1. Regime change in Moscow. Free and fair elections.
2. Putin and other senior Russian generals facing war crimes trials in the Hague
3. Departure of Russian troops from all part of occupied Ukraine, including Crimea
4. Limitations on the size of the Russian military and their ability to deplot within 200 miles of the Ukrainian border
5. Reparations paid out of energy export revenues for the rebuildinf of Ukraine
The complete failure to understand Trump - exemplified by Mandelson - is utterly shameful.
Used to be very very very important to Tories, as I recall very well. Especially the Young Cons. Hang Nelson Mandela and all that. Lots of scope for possible criticism of SKS there, given the deep knowledge of SA shown by the Tories.
Actually, this has got me wondering, to your credit, so I am off to look it up to find out what on earth he is there for. Good night.
And we should have the fucking courage of our convictions and do what is right for a change.
"The Tories would win just 14 seats if an election were called now, according to polling circulating inside Conservative Party headquarters and leaked to The Telegraph. The research suggests the Tories would be obliterated in what one insider described as an “existential threat” to the most successful party in British electoral history. The findings – which predict Reform UK would win a 46-seat majority – will inevitably raise serious questions over Kemi Badenoch’s leadership of the party. One Tory HQ insider said the results showed the party was in danger of “being consigned to the history books”."
Bishops also take part in remembrance day and supported the war against the Nazis for instance and they have also condemned Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Bishops tend to oppose the death penalty and back rehabilitation of offenders but that does not mean they don't support prison for serious offenders
https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Lords/Division/1754
But if we’re to ‘learn lessons’ then we need to acknowledge that the pathetic and spineless behaviour started before that.
One other embarrassing thing about the 28 point plan is that Witkoff is promising the unfreezing of assets. Those assets being held in Europe not the US. Doesn't he realise this. Things feel bleak. BUT. Europe has the frozen assests. It is where the pipeline gas goes. It can continue providing support to Ukraine without the US. Leverage is there.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c0qpqkyp948t
Where’s the definition of the Ukraine/Republic of China border?
And the disposition of cemeteries relative to it?
China abstained, but didn't go as far as voting against.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002n1lf
American voters are so dumb it will probably work.
See (for example) the England fans in the 1969 film The Italian Job.
Marvellous film. My wife is away next week with her friend in New York, so I need some stuff to watch,
Israel = 20,000 sq. km. in area
Oh, and dole out tariff checks to everyone, well that’s not helping the fight against inflation. Bessent is no fool. You’d think hed be guiding the Trumpdozer.
Three-time Trump voter:
https://x.com/Ronxyz00/status/1991876099647660510
We ought to know by now that he will sell us down the river anyway. It would likely be less costly if we made a stand now.
And there's a fair possibility he would fold.
The only thing preventing it is the disunity and distrust on our side of the Atlantic.