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Well this is interesting – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,537
edited 6:22AM in General
Well this is interesting – politicalbetting.com

The sudden silence of dozens of pro-independence X accounts on 12 June 2025 coincided with Israeli air and cyber strikes targeting Iranian military and communications infrastructure.https://t.co/perBXbkBaU

Read the full story here

«1345

Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,965
    edited 6:33AM
    Second.

    I'm surprised it was the Iranians and not the Russians.

    After all, the Supreme Leader was on Russia Today, was he not?

    Though TBF Gorgeous ('I have stopped drinking') George was on Press TV for about a decade.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,648
    edited 6:32AM
    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    It's not just the Iranians and Chinese, and not just the public who fall for it.

    Suspected Russian hackers used new tactic against UK researcher
    https://www.reuters.com/technology/suspected-russian-hackers-used-new-tactic-against-uk-researcher-2025-06-18/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,117
    edited 6:35AM
    MattW said:

    Second.

    I'm surprised it was the Iranians and not the Russians.

    After all, the Supreme Leader was on Russia Today, was he not?

    Farage?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,965

    MattW said:

    Second.

    I'm surprised it was the Iranians and not the Russians.

    After all, the Supreme Leader was on Russia Today, was he not?

    Farage?
    Does he have links to Scotland? Apart from wanting to run the Government, that is.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,008
    Least surprising thing I've heard all day, albeit it's half seven in the morning (I saw it on PB last night).

    Wait for the "activists" to start championing those poor oppressed Iranian social media bots and marching on parliament in support.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,061
    @Smyth_Chris

    Donald Trump is coming for a full state visit in September - but that wasn’t what the King wanted

    The palace argued for an informal visit first, with a senior aide saying Charles didn’t want to fete the president while Trump was “impugning his sovereignty” over Canada

    But the PM wanted to curry favour with Trump, who is fascinated by the royals

    And the president didn’t like the image of an informal handshake before the “bells and whistles” event

    Trump got his way

    https://x.com/Smyth_Chris/status/1937761824767902205
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,982
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    There's clear evidence of foreign trolls trying to needle democratic governments.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,965
    edited 6:41AM
    Quite a crusty critique of the proposed Queen Elizabeth Memorial Bridge in St James' Park, from the architectural critic of the Guardian.

    To me it reads like a Telegraph Editorial:

    ‘Excessively wasteful and giving off Swarovski vibes’: our critic on the ‘tiara bridge’ for the late queen
    Norman Foster’s cast glass design to honour Queen Elizabeth II will see a perfectly decent bridge destroyed and vast sums squandered at great ecological cost. And how will it stay sparkly?


    https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2025/jun/24/tiara-bridge-queen-elizabeth-ii-memorial-norman-foster
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    You can't expect proper spelling from a North Korean AI social media bot.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    edited 6:41AM

    It's not just the Iranians and Chinese, and not just the public who fall for it.

    Suspected Russian hackers used new tactic against UK researcher
    https://www.reuters.com/technology/suspected-russian-hackers-used-new-tactic-against-uk-researcher-2025-06-18/

    More details from Google (the company, not the search engine):-

    What’s in an ASP? Creative Phishing Attack on Prominent Academics and Critics of Russia
    https://cloud.google.com/blog/topics/threat-intelligence/creative-phishing-academics-critics-of-russia
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315
    TOPPING said:

    Least surprising thing I've heard all day, albeit it's half seven in the morning (I saw it on PB last night).

    Wait for the "activists" to start championing those poor oppressed Iranian social media bots and marching on parliament in support.

    Can only be a matter of time before a Zarah Sultana tweet saying “We are all Iranian social media bots”.


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,448
    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637
    edited 6:45AM
    Reading a bit more about the F35A order, the nuclear capability is more spin than substance.
    The bombs are the NATO weapons held by the US in Britain, and their availability is controlled by them.

    The more cogent reason for the purchase seems to be that the F35B is going to remain semi-crippled in terms of what weapons it can carry, well into the 2030s. The A is significantly less constrained.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 6:46AM
    Morning all
    A bit of polling to start the day and this weeks More in Common which sees a bit of shuffling

    Reform 27 (-2)
    Lab 23 (+2)
    Con 20 (-2)
    LD 14 (+1)
    Green 9 (=)
    SNP 3 (=)
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,117

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,818

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    There's clear evidence of foreign trolls trying to needle democratic governments.
    I can see this being a rich seam of punnage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    There's clear evidence of foreign trolls trying to needle democratic governments.
    Invading the very fabric of our society.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    There's clear evidence of foreign trolls trying to needle democratic governments.
    I can see this being a rich seam of punnage.
    Tailor made for PB.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 19,275
    edited 6:57AM

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    A stitch in time ?
    There's clear evidence of foreign trolls trying to needle democratic governments.
    I can see this being a rich seam of punnage.
    We need to stay wary of bias - binding oneself to a view of events based on personal warp(ed) thinking.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315
    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    Remind her to stay out of arms reach.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,761
    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,031
    edited 7:04AM

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    Why is it odd? Aren't most of our enemies hard right authoritarians? Certainly in fact if not in name.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    They will try to keep such exposure to a minimum.
    I don't expect a parade through the centre of London. The pomp and pageantry will be kept as contained as possible; so long as Trump feels the flatttery, I don't think he'll care about the absence of crowds.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,675
    Interesting indeed; really useful in bringing such dealings into the light. If I'd been asked previously, my response would have been Why would Iran go to all that trouble?

    Good morning, everyone.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,500
    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    Hang on. TRUMP INSISTS HE OBLITERATED THEM. DESTROYED.

    So either the Pentagon is wrong or Trump is wrong.

    We're about to see the mass purge of the Pentagon, aren't we?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,117

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    Dunno, demonstrating what Britain really thinks of Trump has its benefits. Though not a high bar, showing we’re more consistently principled than David Lammy is never a bad thing.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 39,061
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    They will try to keep such exposure to a minimum.
    I don't expect a parade through the centre of London. The pomp and pageantry will be kept as contained as possible; so long as Trump feels the flatttery, I don't think he'll care about the absence of crowds.
    It's probably bad to have huge crowds booing him, but it would be entertaining for him to have to sit through a proper military parade (again)
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 7:13AM
    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,019
    edited 7:13AM
    Iran is closely allied to Russia - indeed, a case could be made the current regime in Tehran survives by the grace of Moscow. It's not surprising if Iranian assets are being used to push a Russian geopolitical agenda.

    It will be interesting to see if PB's Saturday visitors, who we are know are not Russian speakers, turn up again.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,019

    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    Hang on. TRUMP INSISTS HE OBLITERATED THEM. DESTROYED.

    So either the Pentagon is wrong or Trump is wrong.

    We're about to see the mass purge of the Pentagon, aren't we?
    A bizarre situation where we must assume that one of those two is actually right for once.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313

    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    Hang on. TRUMP INSISTS HE OBLITERATED THEM. DESTROYED.

    So either the Pentagon is wrong or Trump is wrong.

    We're about to see the mass purge of the Pentagon, aren't we?
    Richard Nixon was not a great fan... (50-second video)
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/JevQvh6Xk7I
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 74,019
    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    Mushroom banners at the ready?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    This illustrates the stupidity of successive governments cutting the BBC World Service.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,016
    boulay said:

    TOPPING said:

    Least surprising thing I've heard all day, albeit it's half seven in the morning (I saw it on PB last night).

    Wait for the "activists" to start championing those poor oppressed Iranian social media bots and marching on parliament in support.

    Can only be a matter of time before a Zarah Sultana tweet saying “We are all Iranian social media bots”.


    Or, more likely, lots of 'people' she follows online, and lots of people following her, are bots.

    It leads to the insidious decline of online conversations. You start off by saying something like: "I'm a bit worried about how immigration is hurting the existing population," and you get a few likes and positive comments.

    The statement is fair, and would be said by many on here.

    But a few of the replies go a lot further, and those comments also get a lot of likes. They seem popular, and you like engagement, so next you say: "Immigrants are a cause of all our problems." You get many more comments, both pro and against, and loads of likes and engagement. You don't have the time to look at all the accounts to see that they're suspicious; you just bask in the glow of the engagement.

    Eventually you end up saying: "Throw out all the Muslims!!!!" and get a slot on GB News or Fox News.

    (The same thing can happen on the left as well, hence Owen Jones' existence...)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    Mushroom banners at the ready?
    Good idea.
    I'm not his greatest fan, as you know, but she really dislikes him.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,448
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    Mushroom banners at the ready?
    Good idea.
    I'm not his greatest fan, as you know, but she really dislikes him.
    Why doesn’t your wife like King Charles III?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    Hang on. TRUMP INSISTS HE OBLITERATED THEM. DESTROYED.

    So either the Pentagon is wrong or Trump is wrong.

    We're about to see the mass purge of the Pentagon, aren't we?
    A bizarre situation where we must assume that one of those two is actually right for once.
    So if we believe Bibi that Iran was 2 or 3 years away from a working nuclear weapon, Obama's deal delayed this by a decade, and Trump's bombs have set it back a few weeks.

    In truth, it's all rubbish around propaganda and semantics.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,573
    Nigelb said:

    Reading a bit more about the F35A order, the nuclear capability is more spin than substance.
    The bombs are the NATO weapons held by the US in Britain, and their availability is controlled by them.

    The more cogent reason for the purchase seems to be that the F35B is going to remain semi-crippled in terms of what weapons it can carry, well into the 2030s. The A is significantly less constrained.

    Completely ovethinking it. It's an RAF vs RN turf war and the RAF has won. They want F-35 but don't want the RN involved in the slightest aspect. That's what they get with A.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 31,313
    edited 7:33AM

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    Dunno, demonstrating what Britain really thinks of Trump has its benefits. Though not a high bar, showing we’re more consistently principled than David Lammy is never a bad thing.
    Are you perhaps confusing our beloved Foreign Secretary with JD Vance, VP and Trump critic superfan? (2-minute video):-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfD95SvBxoU
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,712

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    This illustrates the stupidity of successive governments cutting the BBC World Service.
    Yes. The Iranian SNP activists, assuming this is all true, and other agitprop tools have the virtue of being extremely cheap. And when you consider that PBers, including me, are prepared to post all sorts of rubbish entirely without payment and through the altruism of our hearts one can see how cheap this is.

    A proper BBC World Service, in lots of languages is very cheap compared with a few new planes for the RAF and could quite reasonably come out of the (cut) development budget.

    Apropos of this, another cheap thing is Trump's attack on Iran. Ground invasions cost trillions and don't work. This attack from the air doesn't. and doesn't work any worse than from the ground.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,088
    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    It's convinced me, tbh. Netanyahu has been telling us Iran was 6 months away from a bomb for decades - it does actually look like they had made some progress this time.

    It doesn't leave the US/Israel much choice but to go all in. They've lightly tapped a wasp's nest, and there's no way the Iranians are negotiating now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 46,016
    Chris said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    Why is it odd? Aren't most of our enemies hard right authoritarians? Certainly in fact if not in name.
    I think it gets complex. Is China's 'communist' regime hard right? Putin's regime appears to be, but he also apparently appeals to leftists both within and outwith Russia.

    I think it's another example of horseshoe politics; when you get to the extremes, left and right become very similar in the way they operate, even if they claim to have different aims.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,088
    edited 7:38AM

    Chris said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    Why is it odd? Aren't most of our enemies hard right authoritarians? Certainly in fact if not in name.
    I think it gets complex. Is China's 'communist' regime hard right? Putin's regime appears to be, but he also apparently appeals to leftists both within and outwith Russia.

    I think it's another example of horseshoe politics; when you get to the extremes, left and right become very similar in the way they operate, even if they claim to have different aims.
    Isn't it just pure oppositionalism? The Establishment doesn't like Russia; therefore I like Russia.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,712

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,712

    Chris said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    Why is it odd? Aren't most of our enemies hard right authoritarians? Certainly in fact if not in name.
    I think it gets complex. Is China's 'communist' regime hard right? Putin's regime appears to be, but he also apparently appeals to leftists both within and outwith Russia.

    I think it's another example of horseshoe politics; when you get to the extremes, left and right become very similar in the way they operate, even if they claim to have different aims.
    Analysis of all politics, domestic and global, makes more sense when the words 'left' and 'right' are not used at all. They have ceased to have any explanatory use.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,410
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    Mushroom banners at the ready?
    We live in a free society. Cousin marriage and pregnancy over 40 may become haram, but banning mushrooms is a step too far!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,117

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    Dunno, demonstrating what Britain really thinks of Trump has its benefits. Though not a high bar, showing we’re more consistently principled than David Lammy is never a bad thing.
    Are you perhaps confusing our beloved Foreign Secretary with JD Vance, VP and Trump critic superfan? (2-minute video):-
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfD95SvBxoU
    To conflate this with another topic of discussion, I believe Lammy has also appeared on RT. I'm sure he had his reasons (being an airhead who likes attention being the primary one I suspect).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,642
    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 7:47AM
    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,737
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    As always, those wanting (quite legitimately) to protest Trump's visit get it all wrong. Shouting, screaming and chanting mean nothing to him as they don't and shouldn't to political people. Indeed, all the evidence shows moderate opposition is put off by the antics of those exteemely opposed.

    Dignified opposition to Trump would be much more effective - I remember when the Japanese Emperor visited, veterans who had been POWs in Japanese-run camps came to the procession and turned their backs on him symbolically, in silence. Imagine if Trump's procession was greeted not by boos and jeers but by absolute silence. That silence would be shown on Fox, Newsmax, OAN and all the other pro-Trump networks and they'd all be frantically trying to explain it.

    That kind of dignified protest would be far more effective than all the raucous indignation. It would also show we are a law-abiding, dignified nation not that image constantly put forward by those whose sole aim is to constantly talk down the country.

    In recent years, it is hard to say that dignity beats outrage, in electoral terms at least.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    I would rather the fudge came from Kemi. As amusing it would be from a politics perspective to see Starmer lose a confidence vote, it’s a change that needs to be made.

    If you are Tory inclined you should really be supporting it even if not perfectly framed, and the absolute potential mess the country would end up in if Starmer stepped down and Rayner got in as PM in his place is not a great prospect.

    So this is one of those times where I have to put my dislike of Starmer to the side and hope that Kemi keeps the politics out of politics.

    Frankly, if it goes through only due to Tory support then it still damages Starmer in the long term without the short term dangers.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,642
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    As always, those wanting (quite legitimately) to protest Trump's visit get it all wrong. Shouting, screaming and chanting mean nothing to him as they don't and shouldn't to political people. Indeed, all the evidence shows moderate opposition is put off by the antics of those exteemely opposed.

    Dignified opposition to Trump would be much more effective - I remember when the Japanese Emperor visited, veterans who had been POWs in Japanese-run camps came to the procession and turned their backs on him symbolically, in silence. Imagine if Trump's procession was greeted not by boos and jeers but by absolute silence. That silence would be shown on Fox, Newsmax, OAN and all the other pro-Trump networks and they'd all be frantically trying to explain it.

    That kind of dignified protest would be far more effective than all the raucous indignation. It would also show we are a law-abiding, dignified nation not that image constantly put forward by those whose sole aim is to constantly talk down the country.

    You really haven't got this self indulgence thing, have you? Protest isn't about Trump, its about virtue signalling and ego by those who take part.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 44,117
    Who'd have thought these test tube grown mouthers of meaninglessness would be bad at persuading even their own colleagues of stuff?

    Saul Staniforth
    @SaulStaniforth
    "Yesterday you had almost every cabinet minister drafted in by Downing Street to get on the phone or hold meetings with Labour rebels & potential rebels & urge them to back down, to take their names off that wrecking amendment. And the effect is that things have only got worse"

    https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1937778130984288754
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315
    Jesus, as it’s BBC Christmas (AKA Glastonbury) they are interviewing Rod Stewart and the interviewer asked him about an £11k bill for trashing a hotel on tour.

    Stewart’s answer was that the hotels treated them like the scum of the earth so they trashed the hotels.

    Clearly oblivious the fact that the hotels judged correctly.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 11,088
    edited 7:54AM
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    As always, those wanting (quite legitimately) to protest Trump's visit get it all wrong. Shouting, screaming and chanting mean nothing to him as they don't and shouldn't to political people. Indeed, all the evidence shows moderate opposition is put off by the antics of those exteemely opposed.

    Dignified opposition to Trump would be much more effective - I remember when the Japanese Emperor visited, veterans who had been POWs in Japanese-run camps came to the procession and turned their backs on him symbolically, in silence. Imagine if Trump's procession was greeted not by boos and jeers but by absolute silence. That silence would be shown on Fox, Newsmax, OAN and all the other pro-Trump networks and they'd all be frantically trying to explain it.

    That kind of dignified protest would be far more effective than all the raucous indignation. It would also show we are a law-abiding, dignified nation not that image constantly put forward by those whose sole aim is to constantly talk down the country.

    You really haven't got this self indulgence thing, have you? Protest isn't about Trump, its about virtue signalling and ego by those who take part.
    The people I know who would go to such a protest do vehemently dislike Trump. Opposition has to be seen to be believed, otherwise we fade into acquiescence.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,642
    algarkirk said:

    Chris said:

    Fishing said:

    "It is clear enemies of the United Kingdom are using social media to foment division in this country."

    Did anyone ever doubt this? They have been doing it for a decade.

    The real question is, why aren't we doing it back to them twice as hard? That's the only way to deter dictatorships from attacking you.

    If you shitpost worse about them, they will think twice. If they can drop a bomb on you, you need to be able to drop five bombs on them.

    It's a terrible way to live, but it's how we need to think when dealing with the Russias, Chinas, Irans and North Koreas of this world.

    Well, if Russia sews discord here, we might petition the government or vote in an election or referendum. If we sew discord in Russia or China, the most that can happen is an internal opponent falls out of a poorly-secured window.
    Yes, we are very vulnerable because we are a relatively free and open society. Our enemies are not free and open.

    To counter this, we should not trample on freedom and openness. Oddly enough, that is exactly what the hard right want to do. It's almost as though they're working hand-in-glove with out enemies...
    Why is it odd? Aren't most of our enemies hard right authoritarians? Certainly in fact if not in name.
    I think it gets complex. Is China's 'communist' regime hard right? Putin's regime appears to be, but he also apparently appeals to leftists both within and outwith Russia.

    I think it's another example of horseshoe politics; when you get to the extremes, left and right become very similar in the way they operate, even if they claim to have different aims.
    Analysis of all politics, domestic and global, makes more sense when the words 'left' and 'right' are not used at all. They have ceased to have any explanatory use.
    May be time to use the pigs quote again.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 7:54AM
    boulay said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    I would rather the fudge came from Kemi. As amusing it would be from a politics perspective to see Starmer lose a confidence vote, it’s a change that needs to be made.

    If you are Tory inclined you should really be supporting it even if not perfectly framed, and the absolute potential mess the country would end up in if Starmer stepped down and Rayner got in as PM in his place is not a great prospect.

    So this is one of those times where I have to put my dislike of Starmer to the side and hope that Kemi keeps the politics out of politics.

    Frankly, if it goes through only due to Tory support then it still damages Starmer in the long term without the short term dangers.
    I'm against the bill though so I want it to go down, and down hard. Its an appallingly badly thought out set of proposals that does nothing to address the lack of disabled safe jobs, the reticence of employers to take on the disabled with workplace needs and the general lack of jobs out there and does not acknowkedge that PIP is not in any way an out of work benefit.
    Its just saving money by figuratively tipping people out wheelchairs
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,752
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    As always, those wanting (quite legitimately) to protest Trump's visit get it all wrong. Shouting, screaming and chanting mean nothing to him as they don't and shouldn't to political people. Indeed, all the evidence shows moderate opposition is put off by the antics of those exteemely opposed.

    Dignified opposition to Trump would be much more effective - I remember when the Japanese Emperor visited, veterans who had been POWs in Japanese-run camps came to the procession and turned their backs on him symbolically, in silence. Imagine if Trump's procession was greeted not by boos and jeers but by absolute silence. That silence would be shown on Fox, Newsmax, OAN and all the other pro-Trump networks and they'd all be frantically trying to explain it.

    That kind of dignified protest would be far more effective than all the raucous indignation. It would also show we are a law-abiding, dignified nation not that image constantly put forward by those whose sole aim is to constantly talk down the country.

    You really haven't got this self indulgence thing, have you? Protest isn't about Trump, its about virtue signalling and ego by those who take part.
    Rather like the Conservative Party and its obsession with membership of the European Union which basically went on for 30 years from the Bruges speech to the Referendum and is still going now...
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315

    boulay said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    I would rather the fudge came from Kemi. As amusing it would be from a politics perspective to see Starmer lose a confidence vote, it’s a change that needs to be made.

    If you are Tory inclined you should really be supporting it even if not perfectly framed, and the absolute potential mess the country would end up in if Starmer stepped down and Rayner got in as PM in his place is not a great prospect.

    So this is one of those times where I have to put my dislike of Starmer to the side and hope that Kemi keeps the politics out of politics.

    Frankly, if it goes through only due to Tory support then it still damages Starmer in the long term without the short term dangers.
    I'm against the bill though so I want it to go down, and down hard. Its an appallingly badly thought out set of proposals that does nothing to address the lack of disabled safe jobs, the reticence of employers to take on the disabled with workplace needs and the general lack of jobs out there and does not acknowkedge that PIP is not in any way an out of work benefit.
    Its just saving money by figuratively tipping people out wheelchairs
    Absolutely fair enough and clearly more considered than my comment on it.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    boulay said:

    Jesus, as it’s BBC Christmas (AKA Glastonbury) they are interviewing Rod Stewart and the interviewer asked him about an £11k bill for trashing a hotel on tour.

    Stewart’s answer was that the hotels treated them like the scum of the earth so they trashed the hotels.

    Clearly oblivious the fact that the hotels judged correctly.

    Rod Stewart, lol. He was Grandma porn in the 70s
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,967

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    We remain consistently, a 50/50 nation, in voting terms.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,642
    Eabhal said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    As always, those wanting (quite legitimately) to protest Trump's visit get it all wrong. Shouting, screaming and chanting mean nothing to him as they don't and shouldn't to political people. Indeed, all the evidence shows moderate opposition is put off by the antics of those exteemely opposed.

    Dignified opposition to Trump would be much more effective - I remember when the Japanese Emperor visited, veterans who had been POWs in Japanese-run camps came to the procession and turned their backs on him symbolically, in silence. Imagine if Trump's procession was greeted not by boos and jeers but by absolute silence. That silence would be shown on Fox, Newsmax, OAN and all the other pro-Trump networks and they'd all be frantically trying to explain it.

    That kind of dignified protest would be far more effective than all the raucous indignation. It would also show we are a law-abiding, dignified nation not that image constantly put forward by those whose sole aim is to constantly talk down the country.

    You really haven't got this self indulgence thing, have you? Protest isn't about Trump, its about virtue signalling and ego by those who take part.
    The people I know who would go to such a protest do vehemently dislike Trump. Opposition has to be seen to be believed, otherwise we fade into acquiescence.
    You may be right. My "protest" will be to completely ignore the fact that Trump is in the country and to avoid all media who insist on telling me he is.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,570

    Who'd have thought these test tube grown mouthers of meaninglessness would be bad at persuading even their own colleagues of stuff?

    Saul Staniforth
    @SaulStaniforth
    "Yesterday you had almost every cabinet minister drafted in by Downing Street to get on the phone or hold meetings with Labour rebels & potential rebels & urge them to back down, to take their names off that wrecking amendment. And the effect is that things have only got worse"

    https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1937778130984288754

    Even if we do need to reduce the lead swingers welfare bill by £5b a year the way this Government have gone about it couldn't look worse. If it looks like performative cruelty against society's most vulnerable it probably is performative cruelty against society's vulnerable. The Labour rebels should take this to the brink. If Starmer falls, Starmer falls.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    boulay said:

    boulay said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    I would rather the fudge came from Kemi. As amusing it would be from a politics perspective to see Starmer lose a confidence vote, it’s a change that needs to be made.

    If you are Tory inclined you should really be supporting it even if not perfectly framed, and the absolute potential mess the country would end up in if Starmer stepped down and Rayner got in as PM in his place is not a great prospect.

    So this is one of those times where I have to put my dislike of Starmer to the side and hope that Kemi keeps the politics out of politics.

    Frankly, if it goes through only due to Tory support then it still damages Starmer in the long term without the short term dangers.
    I'm against the bill though so I want it to go down, and down hard. Its an appallingly badly thought out set of proposals that does nothing to address the lack of disabled safe jobs, the reticence of employers to take on the disabled with workplace needs and the general lack of jobs out there and does not acknowkedge that PIP is not in any way an out of work benefit.
    Its just saving money by figuratively tipping people out wheelchairs
    Absolutely fair enough and clearly more considered than my comment on it.
    Im biased tbf, but I honestly think its a thoroughly negligent proposal (and won't get past the courts anyway if it goes through)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,752

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    You can tell it's approaching the "summer silly season" when the hypothetical polling gets wheeled out.

    As you say, Labour would "lose" three points to a new socialist type party, the Greens would lose four points and the new party would find another three points from those presumably already in the "Other" camp plus a bit of rounding so nothing too significant in truth.

    It will be interesting to see if, particularly in London, the various "Independent" groups such as those in Newham and Redbridge coalesce around a single platform for the local elections next year and how many candidates they choose to run and where. As an example, they would need to find 66 candidates (plus presumably a Mayoral candidate) to run a full slate in Newham.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,805
    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Many of them openly say that they entered politics to do nice things and not to take difficult decisions.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 8:01AM
    Sean_F said:

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    We remain consistently, a 50/50 nation, in voting terms.
    Indeed. A further hypothetical nugget from this hypothetical - Magic Gs army with 33% support in the youngest cohort and leading
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,570
    Sean_F said:

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    We remain consistently, a 50/50 nation, in voting terms.
    True, but Corbyn once again doing what Corbyn does best, delivering right wing governments.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,447
    Eabhal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Yep

    https://x.com/DPJHodges/status/1937753231414714857

    (((Dan Hodges)))

    @DPJHodges

    Interesting that 24 hours ago the line was "Iran does not have an active nuclear weapons programme". And this morning the line has become "the US strikes failed. Iran retains a major, active nuclear weapons programme".

    It's convinced me, tbh. Netanyahu has been telling us Iran was 6 months away from a bomb for decades - it does actually look like they had made some progress this time.

    It doesn't leave the US/Israel much choice but to go all in. They've lightly tapped a wasp's nest, and there's no way the Iranians are negotiating now.
    It's really hard to predict the actions of a bunch of religious fundamentalist authoritarians, but I think the conflict shows differently. The most significant thing is that Iran did not try to close the Strait of Hormuz.

    That tells me that, contrary to all of their belligerent rhetoric, they don't actually want a major direct conflict. I think they want a deal.

    They're perfectly happy to have proxies get into conflicts on their behalf, of course, but the rhetoric is for internal consumption.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,315
    Do we know when these new F35s arrive, when we will have pilots for them and do we actually have enough RAF pilots for twelve more jets?

    The way the story is being pushed it’s like we’ve popped down to Fighter jets R us and bought them (and of course had to buy a big bag for life to take them home in) and they will be ready to defend us by the weekend.
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 365
    As some of you may know, I have a nerdish interest in local government Councillors who defect from one party to another. In my opinion it says more about the state of political parties than local government by elections. If anyone else is interested, my latest jottings on the subject can be found here, in a guest article for the Liberal England website -

    https://liberalengland.blogspot.com/2025/06/guest-post-councillor-defections.html

    Management Summary - 1.26% of elected Conservative Councillors have defected from the party since the local elections in May.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,805
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 8:08AM
    stodge said:

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    You can tell it's approaching the "summer silly season" when the hypothetical polling gets wheeled out.

    As you say, Labour would "lose" three points to a new socialist type party, the Greens would lose four points and the new party would find another three points from those presumably already in the "Other" camp plus a bit of rounding so nothing too significant in truth.

    It will be interesting to see if, particularly in London, the various "Independent" groups such as those in Newham and Redbridge coalesce around a single platform for the local elections next year and how many candidates they choose to run and where. As an example, they would need to find 66 candidates (plus presumably a Mayoral candidate) to run a full slate in Newham.
    Yes, i think full klaxon alert warranted for such what ifs.
    What happens with the indies is an interesting question. In terms of Corbyn, I think its getting to the point he's left it too late unless he acts very soon, he'll have no time to build anything and just get bulldozed in May if he delays.

    Workers are trying to find and field 1000 candidates in May to corner a small % of the national left wing vote and try and go on to win seats on '29 - Yardley, Hodge Hill, Rochdale, Blackburn look their best bets fwiw
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,570

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Many of them openly say that they entered politics to do nice things and not to take difficult decisions.
    I don't think many Labour MPs expected a Labour Government to sling wheel chair bound voters into homelessness.

    I appreciate the welfare bill burgeoned under the last Government and is unsustainable but paying some hateful private contractor millions each year to throw genuinely helpless people into penury is not good politics.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,752

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Apologies for pouring cold water on your dreams of toppling a Prime Minister and Government with a majority of 170-something in just one vote but politics doesn't work like this.

    To be fair, the "reasoned amendment" sounds like another bad day for the can which will get another kicking down the road and it may well be the right thing to do but no Prime Minister is going to walk if an amendment to a bill gets through the Commons.

    I'm not even sure how this is the "beginning of the end" for Starmer either. It won't look good but I imagine there will be a couple of trips to the nearest fudge shop and something will back which will be reluctantly accepted.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,870

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Theories about MMT have convinced a lot of people that the government can just print money to pay for things and tax is an optional policy choice.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 78,637
    edited 8:09AM
    boulay said:

    Do we know when these new F35s arrive, when we will have pilots for them and do we actually have enough RAF pilots for twelve more jets?

    The way the story is being pushed it’s like we’ve popped down to Fighter jets R us and bought them (and of course had to buy a big bag for life to take them home in) and they will be ready to defend us by the weekend.

    Like everything to do with the F35, it will be late, over budget, and often unavailable. And probably won't be able to carry our best missiles.
    But it's cheaper than the B, and is less likely to be cancelled / more likely to be upgraded.

    And will be more useful if we ever decide to scrap the carriers.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,447
    boulay said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    I would rather the fudge came from Kemi. As amusing it would be from a politics perspective to see Starmer lose a confidence vote, it’s a change that needs to be made.

    If you are Tory inclined you should really be supporting it even if not perfectly framed, and the absolute potential mess the country would end up in if Starmer stepped down and Rayner got in as PM in his place is not a great prospect.

    So this is one of those times where I have to put my dislike of Starmer to the side and hope that Kemi keeps the politics out of politics.

    Frankly, if it goes through only due to Tory support then it still damages Starmer in the long term without the short term dangers.
    I'm ignorant of the detail of the proposed welfare changes, but are they really as significant as all that?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,570
    edited 8:10AM

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Can you remind me on whose watch the welfare bill went unnecessarily through the roof since COVID?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,719

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada



    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    Didn't have you down as a Trump fan!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,679

    Sean_F said:

    *hypothetical polling klaxon*
    More in Common sees polling with a Corbyn led socialist party thus.....

    Reform 27
    Con 20
    Labour 20
    LD 14
    Magic Grandpas magic army 10
    Green 5
    SNP 2

    https://x.com/LukeTryl/status/1937775607263141898?s=19

    We remain consistently, a 50/50 nation, in voting terms.
    Indeed. A further hypothetical nugget from this hypothetical - Magic Gs army with 33% support in the youngest cohort and leading
    The splitting of the left isn't all bad news for Labour, the Greens running in Ilford probably saved Streeting his seat.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,583

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Theories about MMT have convinced a lot of people that the government can just print money to pay for things and tax is an optional policy choice.
    In reality it’s more that people think that the tax burden should be on corporations not normal people
  • MattWMattW Posts: 27,965
    edited 8:12AM

    Nigelb said:

    It's bloody good that the elected Prime Minister is putting our unelected head of state in his place.

    Starmer goes against the King by bringing forward Trump’s full state visit

    The palace is expected to announce a state visit is scheduled for September, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada


    Sir Keir Starmer has gone against the wishes of the King in bringing ­President Trump’s state visit forward, despite the monarch’s concerns over threats to Canada.

    Britain and the US are expected to confirm that a full state visit by the president will take place in September as Starmer prioritises his attempt to curry favour with Trump.

    Going against the original proposal for an earlier informal visit outlined by the King, the prime minister has expedited a full “bells and whistles” visit in an attempt to capitalise on the president’s fascination with the royal family.

    The Palace had hoped for a more ­leisurely and considered approach, building towards a full state visit. However, the president made clear that his preference was for a full visit first, which would not be overshadowed by an informal handshake picture.

    It is understood that the “manu regia”, the formal document required to ­initiate a state visit, was signed by the King and hand-delivered to the White House last week.


    https://www.thetimes.com/article/1e48e2af-33d9-43fb-a6fa-a3e9aa815591?shareToken=286fc33a4ec9ee67eee5c1f5fc6208f8

    #we are all Trump rimmers now
    My wife is already planning to attend protests when he shows up.
    This is the part I do not understand. How is exposing Trump to crowds of British demonstrators supposed to boost our image?
    He won't be. Trump is a coward who cannot bear to look in a mirror to view himself as he is.

    I'd say it will be helicopter here, helicopter there, bit of fluffing, short stopover at Turnberry, then run away back to the land of the formerly free.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,573
    boulay said:

    Do we know when these new F35s arrive, when we will have pilots for them and do we actually have enough RAF pilots for twelve more jets?

    The way the story is being pushed it’s like we’ve popped down to Fighter jets R us and bought them (and of course had to buy a big bag for life to take them home in) and they will be ready to defend us by the weekend.

    Unless the USAF want to give up 12 jets from Lot 18 the UK F-35As will be Lot 19, if they are ordered immediately. So 2028/29.

    Twelve aircraft imply one squadron and no OCU so the crew can be trained in the US fairly easily if expensively.

    It's a bit of a kick in the nads for GCAP/Tempest because every quid spent on F-35A is a quid less for that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,870

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Theories about MMT have convinced a lot of people that the government can just print money to pay for things and tax is an optional policy choice.
    In reality it’s more that people think that the tax burden should be on corporations not normal people
    That's just a variant of thinking that the money should magically appear from somewhere else.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 11,933
    edited 8:17AM
    stodge said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Apologies for pouring cold water on your dreams of toppling a Prime Minister and Government with a majority of 170-something in just one vote but politics doesn't work like this.

    To be fair, the "reasoned amendment" sounds like another bad day for the can which will get another kicking down the road and it may well be the right thing to do but no Prime Minister is going to walk if an amendment to a bill gets through the Commons.

    I'm not even sure how this is the "beginning of the end" for Starmer either. It won't look good but I imagine there will be a couple of trips to the nearest fudge shop and something will back which will be reluctantly accepted.
    The amendment kills the bill if it passes, it prevents second reading, so its ripping up the governments programme.
    Yes if he kicks the can and delays he's not going to fall but is weakened and Kendall probably at least gets moved or sacked if they cant find a way to proceed.
    Beginning of the end is if the bill is lost by the amendment passing (reasoned amendments as I say kill the bill dead), his authority will be fatally damaged.
    He needs to delay and compromise with the rebels but appears unable to do so.

    Edit - 'beginning of the end' btw was a comment by a Labour MP signatory to the amendment that I pinched
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,679
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    Do we know when these new F35s arrive, when we will have pilots for them and do we actually have enough RAF pilots for twelve more jets?

    The way the story is being pushed it’s like we’ve popped down to Fighter jets R us and bought them (and of course had to buy a big bag for life to take them home in) and they will be ready to defend us by the weekend.

    Like everything to do with the F35, it will be late, over budget, and often unavailable. And probably won't be able to carry our best missiles.
    But it's cheaper than the B, and is less likely to be cancelled / more likely to be upgraded.

    And will be more useful if we ever decide to scrap the carriers.
    Quicker and cheaper than trying to develop our own fighter program, mind :D

    European fighters ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 32,570

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Theories about MMT have convinced a lot of people that the government can just print money to pay for things and tax is an optional policy choice.
    This Government in opposition were absurd to dismiss a raft of specific taxation measures to balance the books, but your Government created the narrative. Your Government also allowed millions of people to sign up for welfare benefits in their final few years in power.

    This Government have an immediate problem and the way they have gone about tackling it has been cack-handed and cruel. However, your party set the unsustainable problem in place.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,583

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    So yesterdays intensive efforts by cabibet ministers and whips managed to get one single MP to remove their name from the reasoned amendment whilst 16 others added theirs alongside the 11 Irish MPs who attend

    134 (Lab rebels plus NI) plus LD plus Green plus Plaid plus SNP plus Magic Grandpas roving band equals 228 - reform will probably switch to defeat the govt and there are payroll MPs waiting to join the rebellion and Khan and Burnham are out and proud opposers now

    He wont agree to Kemis terms and his bill is going down and its the beginning of the end of Starmer

    Fudge on the way. Labour MPs don't want benefit cuts but they won't want a GE either; after a GE right now about 300 Labour MPs may well be living off welfare for a bit. In 2029 most will be able to renew their contracts of employment with the great British public.

    (And of course the same MPs don't want tax rises, cuts anywhere else, or interest rates rising because of massive state borrowing. What they do want is completely mysterious.)
    Talking about drinking your own poison. These idiots apparently really did believe that the Tories tried (not very successfully) to keep down the costs of welfare because they were evil and greedy; that it was a choice that they had made and it was the wrong one.

    Winning power and becoming the government has forced some of their leaders to recognise that we are beyond broke, that we are living massively and unsustainably beyond our means and the Tories deserve the lash for their profligacy and irresponsibility, not their meanness. Reality is a bitch.
    I do suspect that many of these Labour MPs believe that everyone is entitled to be a net recipient of government money.

    I've met various small groups in recent years where they were baffled that I'm a net contributor to government funds - they didn't seem to have ever encountered such a person before.
    Theories about MMT have convinced a lot of people that the government can just print money to pay for things and tax is an optional policy choice.
    In reality it’s more that people think that the tax burden should be on corporations not normal people
    That's just a variant of thinking that the money should magically appear from somewhere else.
    Not really. You can argue that over-taxing corporations is counter intuitive and there are a lot of merits to that but it’s difficult to argue that wealth is not legitimately available to tax.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 14,887
    And the problem is that regular people -- or, worse, journalists -- uncritically pick up on this propaganda and start repeating it. We get that here all the time.
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