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Ars Longa, Vita Brevis – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,484
edited 6:08AM in General
Ars Longa, Vita Brevis – politicalbetting.com

“Never ask a question to which you don’t know the answer” is cross-examination’s golden rule. It means asking just what you need to establish the facts or argument necessary for your case. Described as forensic, lawyers-turned-politicians are over-praised for this skill, often undeservedly so.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,459
    I am sorry to hear your news Cyclefree and wish you all the best.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,780
    I hope you make a full recovery, and return to us.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,006
    Best wishes and strength, which I am sure you have deep wells of, Cyclefree for your recovery.

    I have also been heavily involved in the hospital system recently and aware of a lot of distraction but much moved by a lot of care and kindness.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,606
    edited 6:44AM
    geoffw said:

    Sad to read a valedictory post from one of the best on this site. And may you recover your health and come back here in full fury and eloquence, the sooner the better

    With you, I sincerely hope it's only a temporary valedictory.

    And I feel I must point out that the chocolate is only the lightest dusting.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,382

    Beautiful piece, @Cyclefree - you've made a huge contribution to this site, and the vast majority of us look forward to and enjoy reading your articles.

    Thinking about you, and I admire your strength so much. Please know you’re not alone xx

    Good morning

    It is indeed a beautiful and thought provoking piece from @Cyclefree who has contributed enormously to this site

    All I can say is listen to your body, be kind to yourself, and know we all wish you all strength and love going forward
  • boulayboulay Posts: 6,225
    Best wishes @Cyclefree . Thank you for your contributions so far over the years and look forward to many more in the years to come.

    I’m certain that you will approach treatment with the same fierceness and strength with which you rage against the wrongs, especially the whole chocolate on coffee weirdness, and will roar back soon.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,698
    A beautiful piece, my best wishes to Cyclefree.

    As it happens, I have been to Gay Odin and they certainly make very good chocolate
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,711
    A beautiful piece on some horrible news.

    Every good wish for whatever happens next.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,511
    All the best and best wishes for a full recovery.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 24,006
    Beautiful piece @Cyclefree though you're not right on everything, cricket is a great sport.

    Best wishes for your health, I hope you can make a full and speedy recovery.

    Make the most of the garden and any good weather.

    Know that if you ever want to share your thoughts on here again, we appreciate you.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,532
    @Cyclefree Every blessing upon you and your family. You are in my prayers. Thank you for all you are and do.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 30,096
    Love and best wishes.
  • RobofishRobofish Posts: 2
    Making a rare comment here to say goodbye and best wishes to Cyclefree. I didn’t always agree with her pieces but they were always interesting to read and powerfully argued.
    I was always a little confused what they were doing on this site though… out of the 282, how many were about betting or had betting-related implications?
    Writing a book of her own sounds like the best way to go.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,651
    Best wishes to you, Cyclefree
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,460
    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Best wishes @Cyclefree for your treatment and hopes for your recovery. I might try the onglet, although i'm HP skeptic
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,931
    Best wishes @Cyclefree Live in the moment.

    And while I do not put chocolate on my coffee, I do put milk in my green tea.
  • EmptyNesterEmptyNester Posts: 92
    As an infrequent poster who always reads every word you write, I am saddened by your revelation today, but trust your inner strength and determination will help you through the difficult days ahead, that your treatment will be successful, and that you will return to write many more of the beautifully written articles which are your hallmark.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,780
    edited 7:35AM
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Well, the voters might take a very different view.

    I think it would be bloody funny, if Boris was parachuted in for some "safe" Tory seat, only to lose in a landslide. The Christchurch by-election, all over again.
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 487
    Good luck @Cyclefree
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,906
    Very sorry to hear your news Cyclefree and all the very best for your treatment. Thanks for your various recommendations here including a brisket recipe today which I will try out. I love HP sauce and also Worcestershire sauce so I think it will be a winner for me.

    Another recommendation you made here was to read the short stories of William Trevor. I bought his collection some time ago and I have been deliberately reading it slowly because they are so good. One short story at a time so as to not get to the end too soon. I’ve neglected them for a while so I will pick up the book again when back home after this weekend.

    Kind regards, St John
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,711
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,564
    edited 7:44AM
    Never the news you want to hear, Cyclefree. I have no great words of wisdom to impart, so I'll just wish you all the luck, great medical care and strength to come out the other side of this.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,810
    Sorry to hear this news @Cyclefree. Fingers crossed for a happy outcome
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,510
    Best wishes @Cyclefree
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,715
    Sorry to hear your news Cyclefree.

    Thanks for your detailed and informative articles and best wishes for your treatment
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    If a by election is forced in Central Suffolk the likely loss there to Reform might be the catalyst (its pretty representative of ALL their remaining seats in the East) if not then coming fourth in Wales and Scotland will be enough, or polling consistently fourth under 15%.
    8 seats for Woofius Largicus? I mean i think he'd easily win Harrow East or Ruislip etc and if he stood in 2029 he'd walk Uxbridge or Hendon (currently Lab held). Presumably they are looking at the likes of Hertsmere (would Dowden stand aside?), Windsor? Away from London and surrounds ummmm Droitwich?
  • Thank you, inter alia, for the necessary reminder about feminism and the female perspective. And of course for making me fancy a bit of skirt ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,338
    edited 7:56AM
    All the best @Cyclefree. I hope you manage to do all the things you want to do, and more.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
    Yeah Harrow waa the only 50% definitely.
    I guess they are figuring that polling which showed him as best to face Reform means he'd partially stop/reverse the vote loss to them in a by election. Harrow East or Ruislip are the only 2 id feel safe betting on him right now though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,715
    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Well, the voters might take a very different view.

    I think it would be bloody funny, if Boris was parachuted in for some "safe" Tory seat, only to lose in a landslide. The Christchurch by-election, all over again.
    Given a recent More in Common poll had a Boris led party not only overtaking Labour but overtaking Reform too to take the lead highly unlikely. Indeed if Boris stood in a by election in a Conservative seat he would almost certainly increase the Conservative majority
  • Thank you Cyclefree. I will miss your articles. All the very best for your treatment.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    edited 8:03AM
    Boris getting ennobled and trying to lead them from the Lords (including constitutional outrages like storming into the Commons during PMQs) would be very Boris
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 77,606
    As you do when someone you like has a disease you're unfamiliar with, I've had a quick look for information.

    It's apparently not uncommon, but not easy to diagnose early, and under researched.

    You can lobby your MP to do something about that.
    https://www.lobularmoonshot.org/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,502
    I've learnt my lesson and read the header - very well-written, very true and very moving. Apologies once again for my rudeness last week.

    Very best wishes for your treatment @Cyclefree.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,657
    Oh damn, @Cyclefree, I am really sorry to hear this. Cancer is no respecter of person and can be absolutely vicious. All I can tell you is that chemotherapy can and does work and that there are people who walk the Earth today who thought they were going to die. I won't quote you the odds - I assume your doctors have told you - but I can tell you you have all my hopes. Good luck.
  • MrBristolMrBristol Posts: 30
    Wishing you all the best.

    I've always found your posts timely, on the nose and reassuring that someone critics how history repeats.

    Definitely going to look out for your book,

    All the best.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    edited 8:11AM
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Well, the voters might take a very different view.

    I think it would be bloody funny, if Boris was parachuted in for some "safe" Tory seat, only to lose in a landslide. The Christchurch by-election, all over again.
    Given a recent More in Common poll had a Boris led party not only overtaking Labour but overtaking Reform too to take the lead highly unlikely. Indeed if Boris stood in a by election in a Conservative seat he would almost certainly increase the Conservative majority
    That poll was taken before the post LE poll movement and in any case if 'accurate' shows a big move to Reform since July 2024 with the Boris Boosted Tories up 1.5% from the same.
    So, he might, but very very risky and if he runs and loses a safer seat its all over for the Tories, they become a rump minor party
  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 926

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
    Yeah Harrow waa the only 50% definitely.
    I guess they are figuring that polling which showed him as best to face Reform means he'd partially stop/reverse the vote loss to them in a by election. Harrow East or Ruislip are the only 2 id feel safe betting on him right now though
    Boris would have to be careful with Harrow East. Bob Blackman has been so electorally successful there because he has been assiduous to the point of occasional absurdity in courting the massive Hindu vote. If Boris took a hands off approach to his new constituency then that support could melt away. Also Blackman is now Chair of the 1922 Committee and seems to be enjoying being a big cheese in the Commons Administration. I can't imagine he'd be keen to stand aside.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361
    geoffw said:

    Sad to read a valedictory post from one of the best on this site. And may you recover your health and come back here in full fury and eloquence, the sooner the better

    Yes - although a wonderfully written and touching piece, I don't accept that we won't be hearing a lot more from Cylefree, for many years to come.

    As I've said before, I believe in the benefits of a ketogenic diet (basically Atkins) as a complement to medical treatment for cancer. Many (most I think?) cancers require glucose to live, but the body does not - it can thrive on the alternative fuel source of ketones. You should ask your oncologist about yours, and don't accept a dismissive answer.

    It is a hard choice - a fully ketogenic diet isn't for wimps, and it's very easy for me to sit here and recommend it, but I do believe that starving the cancer can only improve your outcome. Even reducing sugar and carbs moderately might be a positive step. This is an interesting primer:
    https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6375425/

    Remember that whatever your doctor tells you about other patients, you are not other patients - you are you.

    All the very, very best. And I look forward to many more epic Cyclefree headers in the future.



  • StereodogStereodog Posts: 926
    So sorry to hear your news Cyclefree and best wishes with your treatment. I've always found your pieces in miscarriages of justice informative and thought provoking. As a lover of long form articles I've never been put off by the length of your posts!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    edited 8:14AM
    Stereodog said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
    Yeah Harrow waa the only 50% definitely.
    I guess they are figuring that polling which showed him as best to face Reform means he'd partially stop/reverse the vote loss to them in a by election. Harrow East or Ruislip are the only 2 id feel safe betting on him right now though
    Boris would have to be careful with Harrow East. Bob Blackman has been so electorally successful there because he has been assiduous to the point of occasional absurdity in courting the massive Hindu vote. If Boris took a hands off approach to his new constituency then that support could melt away. Also Blackman is now Chair of the 1922 Committee and seems to be enjoying being a big cheese in the Commons Administration. I can't imagine he'd be keen to stand aside.
    Yes, i agree there. Ruislip a better choice. Hed ideally want (and i think win) Uxbridge (or Hendon!) But neither available as red right now
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,202
    I am most sorry to hear your news @Cyclefree and wish you all the best.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361
    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,896
    Every best wish for your treatment. I am gently encouraged by the idea that this cancer has no idea who it has taken on...

    On this concern:

    "Above all, not wanting to worry my children because I should be supporting them. That feeling never ever goes away, no matter how old or settled or grown up your children appear to be."

    you will no doubt learn that your children are themselves very capable of providing you with that support in return. Because you taught them well.

    Looking forward in due course to hearing of your reports on your travels around Asia. Until then, let your garden help heal you.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    Gove and Lord Ashcroft have both come out batting for Kemi, Ashcroft to the extent of saying if shes ousted hes out
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,214
    So sorry to hear about the cancer, @Cyclefree. Hope you make a full recovery, and thanks for your very well researched and argued articles. Long may you and they continue!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,896

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 45,315
    edited 8:25AM
    Very best wishes @Cyclefree. Amazing to turn news like that into such a great piece. I hope things go well for you, medically and otherwise.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,711

    To the header - yes, 100%. The problem is, to me, a moral and philosophical one. The morally bankrupt “leaders” promote each other to the top. And for all their vapid verbiage about rights and duties, they trample on the former and avoid the latter like the plague.

    I am utterly certain that the thief with the amended HR record was “one of us”. Meanwhile, the same organisation was certainly grinding myriads of minions into the ground - “Hard luck, but it’s the process and we can’t change that”

    To @Cyclefree on the personal level - the very best of luck. From multiple instances of similar things in my family - KBO, as Churchill is supposed to have said.

    And your first paragraph takes us back to the comic absurdity of even thinking of bringing Boris back into a position of leadership. Forget the policies, forget the parties, there was a simple moral test that he failed.

    As for the wider question, I don't know what the fix is. We have a system where the selection criterion for getting a top job is being prepared to do anything to get a top job. They don't have to be the very worst people, but too often they are
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,028
    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    I think of the 2026 and 2025 locals had been reversed Labour would have had that fourth behind the LDs with YouGov - next year will be apocalyptic for them. It's not impossible they go fourth in Scotland and, at best, they will be Plaids little helpers in Wales and they will likely lose well over 1000 councillors, possibly 1500-2000
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 54,214
    Stereodog said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
    Yeah Harrow waa the only 50% definitely.
    I guess they are figuring that polling which showed him as best to face Reform means he'd partially stop/reverse the vote loss to them in a by election. Harrow East or Ruislip are the only 2 id feel safe betting on him right now though
    Boris would have to be careful with Harrow East. Bob Blackman has been so electorally successful there because he has been assiduous to the point of occasional absurdity in courting the massive Hindu vote. If Boris took a hands off approach to his new constituency then that support could melt away. Also Blackman is now Chair of the 1922 Committee and seems to be enjoying being a big cheese in the Commons Administration. I can't imagine he'd be keen to stand aside.
    According to my calculations (which are sometimes correct!), at the Indian election last year, despite handing Modi and co. a majority (albeit reduced), it seems that left or left-leaning parties actually got more votes than right or right-leaning parties!

    Left 48%
    Centre/Independents 8%
    Right 44%

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361
    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    Personally I think Labour have given up the next election, and their main aim now is to stay the second largest party. After the flirtation with Faragism, policy initiatives now look aimed at shoring up the left, not taking back the centre. The 'debate with Farage', which actually makes him more likely to win (but has the positive side effect of making those who dislike him more likely to vote tactically to keep him out) is another sign of this to me.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
    The collective term for snakes is 'den', which appropriately enough works for theives too.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    Personally I think Labour have given up the next election, and their main aim now is to stay the second largest party. After the flirtation with Faragism, policy initiatives now look aimed at shoring up the left, not taking back the centre. The 'debate with Farage', which actually makes him more likely to win (but has the positive side effect of making those who dislike him more likely to vote tactically to keep him out) is another sign of this to me.
    He won't be allowed a debate with Farage unless he gives one to the leaders of the Tories, LDs and Greens
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,028

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    I think of the 2026 and 2025 locals had been reversed Labour would have had that fourth behind the LDs with YouGov - next year will be apocalyptic for them. It's not impossible they go fourth in Scotland and, at best, they will be Plaids little helpers in Wales and they will likely lose well over 1000 councillors, possibly 1500-2000
    Yes, when you drill into the polling the situation for Labour is actually worse than it looks. eg

    “Labour is not winning the blame game on the economy – something that it put a lot of emphasis on in its early days of power with the chancellor Rachel Reeves’ claims of a “£22bn hole” of unfunded commitments for 2024.

    Among those who view the economy negatively, Ipsos polling shows that the decisions of Starmer and Reeves are seen as the biggest contributing factor (56%) – more significant than the Covid-19 pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.”

    So the whole “blame the Tories, look at the black hole” shtick has already failed, and will, of course, never succeed now. No one is going to think “no, wait, I was wrong - it WAS the Tories”

    Given that Labour have no clue what to do on the economy other than sad woke tinkering, this seems terminal. They need a Falklands War AND they need Farage to go away, and even that might not be enough
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,193
    All the very best Cyclefree. You can beat this!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,644
    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,487
    First things first. I can only add my best wishes to @Cyclefree and hope that you can deal with your illness and make a lasting recovery.
    Second things second. I think the return of Johnson would be the final straw for the Tories. In many ways Johnson is like Lloyd George, a big beast alright, but let down by cynical ambition. For any recovery in the red wall there would be collapse in the core Tory heartlands. Without a recovery in Surrey it doesn't matter about Stoke.

    The Tories may already be too weak to recover, but bringing back Boris would turn the probability of Tory eclipse into a certainty. Without winning back the ABs going after the CD votes, already hotly contested with RefUK and Labour, is not going to work, in that clear sense, the polls are not to be trusted. Even if he found somecway back, Johnson, like L-G, may simply end up leading a rump with no future.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    Personally I think Labour have given up the next election, and their main aim now is to stay the second largest party. After the flirtation with Faragism, policy initiatives now look aimed at shoring up the left, not taking back the centre. The 'debate with Farage', which actually makes him more likely to win (but has the positive side effect of making those who dislike him more likely to vote tactically to keep him out) is another sign of this to me.
    He won't be allowed a debate with Farage unless he gives one to the leaders of the Tories, LDs and Greens
    Indeed, but asking for one does imply a strategy along the lines of the above.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    edited 8:42AM
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    I think of the 2026 and 2025 locals had been reversed Labour would have had that fourth behind the LDs with YouGov - next year will be apocalyptic for them. It's not impossible they go fourth in Scotland and, at best, they will be Plaids little helpers in Wales and they will likely lose well over 1000 councillors, possibly 1500-2000
    Yes, when you drill into the polling the situation for Labour is actually worse than it looks. eg

    “Labour is not winning the blame game on the economy – something that it put a lot of emphasis on in its early days of power with the chancellor Rachel Reeves’ claims of a “£22bn hole” of unfunded commitments for 2024.

    Among those who view the economy negatively, Ipsos polling shows that the decisions of Starmer and Reeves are seen as the biggest contributing factor (56%) – more significant than the Covid-19 pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.”

    So the whole “blame the Tories, look at the black hole” shtick has already failed, and will, of course, never succeed now. No one is going to think “no, wait, I was wrong - it WAS the Tories”

    Given that Labour have no clue what to do on the economy other than sad woke tinkering, this seems terminal. They need a Falklands War AND they need Farage to go away, and even that might not be enough
    The Scooby Gang will be peeling off Reeves mask to reveal it was Reeves all along.
    They are cooked. Actually the establishment is cooked.
    Where we probably differ is that I'm 100% convinced Farage breaking everyones hearts and hopes will be just as rapid
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,449
    Nice header @Cyclefree, though bittersweet. Good luck with your treatment.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    Personally I think Labour have given up the next election, and their main aim now is to stay the second largest party. After the flirtation with Faragism, policy initiatives now look aimed at shoring up the left, not taking back the centre. The 'debate with Farage', which actually makes him more likely to win (but has the positive side effect of making those who dislike him more likely to vote tactically to keep him out) is another sign of this to me.
    He won't be allowed a debate with Farage unless he gives one to the leaders of the Tories, LDs and Greens
    Indeed, but asking for one does imply a strategy along the lines of the above.
    Indeed and agreed
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433

    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?

    Unfortunately Labour and SKS have set the expectation that manifestos are just somebody we used to know
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,714

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    Why not both?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,449
    Watched the new Mission Impossible film last night. I think the entity may have taken control of UK politics already.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,341
    All good wishes to Cyclefree
  • TimSTimS Posts: 15,449

    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?

    Unfortunately Labour and SKS have set the expectation that manifestos are just somebody we used to know
    On the contrary Labour sticking to their ridiculous manifesto straitjacket on tax is what led us into most of Reeves’ blunders last Autumn.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,193
    I am fascinated by what it is that Tory dreamers think the return of Boris! can bring to the table.

    Boris had that bumbling charm which everyone got seriously sick of. If he brings that back doesn't it just remind everyone of partygate?
    Boris brought us an oven-ready Brexit deal. He can't sell the same thing twice, especially now we Ogdenvilleans have had a taste of his monorail.
    Boris offered to Build Back Better - a great slogan! But it was only ever a slogan, with broke councils being forced to spend money they couldn't afford to bit for a relatively small amount of cash which was offered everywhere and delivered nowhere.

    So what is the pitch?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,597
    Morning all :)

    Sad news to start the day. I met @Cyclefree at a PB drinks gathering many moons ago - she could more than hold her own in the cut and thrust of debate.

    Good luck and look after yourself and your family.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,937
    Gosh, what a start to Sunday morning. I am exceedingly emotionally moved. All the best @Cyclefree with treatments and plans - we will all be rooting for you on here.

    And a timely ending message.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361

    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?

    I don't find that a fair characterisation. Times change, and the fiscal and economical situation has worsened.

    I was re-reading Suella Braverman's piece on ending the 2 child cap, written back in 2023, and the cost is calculated at 2.4bn in 2024/25. But isn't it now 5bn in 2025/26? Crazy difference.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,028

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    I think of the 2026 and 2025 locals had been reversed Labour would have had that fourth behind the LDs with YouGov - next year will be apocalyptic for them. It's not impossible they go fourth in Scotland and, at best, they will be Plaids little helpers in Wales and they will likely lose well over 1000 councillors, possibly 1500-2000
    Yes, when you drill into the polling the situation for Labour is actually worse than it looks. eg

    “Labour is not winning the blame game on the economy – something that it put a lot of emphasis on in its early days of power with the chancellor Rachel Reeves’ claims of a “£22bn hole” of unfunded commitments for 2024.

    Among those who view the economy negatively, Ipsos polling shows that the decisions of Starmer and Reeves are seen as the biggest contributing factor (56%) – more significant than the Covid-19 pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.”

    So the whole “blame the Tories, look at the black hole” shtick has already failed, and will, of course, never succeed now. No one is going to think “no, wait, I was wrong - it WAS the Tories”

    Given that Labour have no clue what to do on the economy other than sad woke tinkering, this seems terminal. They need a Falklands War AND they need Farage to go away, and even that might not be enough
    The Scooby Gang will be peeling off Reeves mask to reveal it was Reeves all along.
    They are cooked. Actually the establishment is cooked.
    Where we probably differ is that I'm 100% convinced Farage breaking everyones hearts and hopes will be just as rapid
    I’m not sure we differ THAT much. I’m not convinced Farage is the solution either - I AM convinced we’ve tried everything else, so his road is the only option left

    I am also convinced that mass immigration and the increasingly desperate attempts by the Establishment to pretend that it is “working” and that “diversity is our strength” is at the root of many of our problems. From low productivity to housing to “two tier justice” to our fraying national identity - the continued importation of millions of people entirely foreign to the UK is making everything worse, fast

    This is not the fault of the migrants, who merely and naturally want a better life. It’s the fault of the politicians who have so casually opened our borders

    It’s an experiment that has failed, disastrously. It must be ended and remedied. The Danish social democrats have shown you can do this without tearing society apart. A sensible Labour government would copy them. We don’t have a sensible government

    So Farage it is
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Cicero said:

    First things first. I can only add my best wishes to @Cyclefree and hope that you can deal with your illness and make a lasting recovery.
    Second things second. I think the return of Johnson would be the final straw for the Tories. In many ways Johnson is like Lloyd George, a big beast alright, but let down by cynical ambition. For any recovery in the red wall there would be collapse in the core Tory heartlands. Without a recovery in Surrey it doesn't matter about Stoke.

    The Tories may already be too weak to recover, but bringing back Boris would turn the probability of Tory eclipse into a certainty. Without winning back the ABs going after the CD votes, already hotly contested with RefUK and Labour, is not going to work, in that clear sense, the polls are not to be trusted. Even if he found somecway back, Johnson, like L-G, may simply end up leading a rump with no future.

    I agree. They need to play the full Blue Wall and Eastern England recovery card this time. The Red Wall strategy has come and gone (with limited exceptions- parts of Houchens area etc)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,780

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
    They all hate each other, so why should the rest of us put any faith in them?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,597
    Stereodog said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    From Shipper's piece;

    His allies are hoping one of the eight MPs who won more than 50 per cent of the vote in 2024 would stand aside for him.

    I may be misreading the figures here

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2024_United_Kingdom_general_election

    but I think the only seat where the Conservatives won an absolute majority is Bob Blackman's Harrow East. Part of the Conservative problem is that they still haven't internalised how deep in trouble they are.
    Yeah Harrow waa the only 50% definitely.
    I guess they are figuring that polling which showed him as best to face Reform means he'd partially stop/reverse the vote loss to them in a by election. Harrow East or Ruislip are the only 2 id feel safe betting on him right now though
    Boris would have to be careful with Harrow East. Bob Blackman has been so electorally successful there because he has been assiduous to the point of occasional absurdity in courting the massive Hindu vote. If Boris took a hands off approach to his new constituency then that support could melt away. Also Blackman is now Chair of the 1922 Committee and seems to be enjoying being a big cheese in the Commons Administration. I can't imagine he'd be keen to stand aside.
    Interesting talking about "the Hindu vote". In East Ham, as a whole, there are a lot of Hindus but the seat is solidly Labour (to a point). In my part of East Ham, Wall End, we have an even stronger Hindu presence (fewer Muslims in this area).

    Wall End is strongly Labour - at the July 2023 by election, the Conservatives polled a respectable 27% while Labour got 61% and Reform got 2%.

    I think when we talk about "the Hindu vote" in Harrow East, we mean the wealthy Hindu vote. If I had to generalise (and it would probably be true of most religous and ethnic groups) the rich tend to vote Conservative, the poor tend to vote Labour. The Hindus are no exception.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 55,345
    https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1926528114412093889

    This is my message to housebuilders: get on with it.

    If you promise homes, you have to build them.

    As part of our Plan for Change, we’re introducing penalties if you don’t build them fast enough.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,937

    I am fascinated by what it is that Tory dreamers think the return of Boris! can bring to the table.

    Boris had that bumbling charm which everyone got seriously sick of. If he brings that back doesn't it just remind everyone of partygate?
    Boris brought us an oven-ready Brexit deal. He can't sell the same thing twice, especially now we Ogdenvilleans have had a taste of his monorail.
    Boris offered to Build Back Better - a great slogan! But it was only ever a slogan, with broke councils being forced to spend money they couldn't afford to bit for a relatively small amount of cash which was offered everywhere and delivered nowhere.

    So what is the pitch?

    He sucks up media oxygen from others.

    Kemi doesn't.

    That's about it frankly.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361
    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
    They all hate each other, so why should the rest of us put any faith in them?
    It's toxic.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,644

    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?

    I don't find that a fair characterisation. Times change, and the fiscal and economical situation has worsened.

    I was re-reading Suella Braverman's piece on ending the 2 child cap, written back in 2023, and the cost is calculated at 2.4bn in 2024/25. But isn't it now 5bn in 2025/26? Crazy difference.
    Reform's tax cut promises were always bollox.

    Their welfarist promises are now bollox.

    If they want to 'reform' something then how about some suggestions as to how to deal with generational inequality and the pandering to pensioners.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,711

    I am fascinated by what it is that Tory dreamers think the return of Boris! can bring to the table.

    Boris had that bumbling charm which everyone got seriously sick of. If he brings that back doesn't it just remind everyone of partygate?
    Boris brought us an oven-ready Brexit deal. He can't sell the same thing twice, especially now we Ogdenvilleans have had a taste of his monorail.
    Boris offered to Build Back Better - a great slogan! But it was only ever a slogan, with broke councils being forced to spend money they couldn't afford to bit for a relatively small amount of cash which was offered everywhere and delivered nowhere.

    So what is the pitch?

    Cargo cultism. 2019 was a Conservative triumph, so recreate those conditions and there will be another triumph. See all those who think that 1983 can happen again (presumably by selling all the stuff that we sold off then again), or that doing whatever Mrtonyblair says is the answer to Labour's woes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,028
    edited 9:01AM

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    Personally I think Labour have given up the next election, and their main aim now is to stay the second largest party. After the flirtation with Faragism, policy initiatives now look aimed at shoring up the left, not taking back the centre. The 'debate with Farage', which actually makes him more likely to win (but has the positive side effect of making those who dislike him more likely to vote tactically to keep him out) is another sign of this to me.
    I tend to agree. They already believe, doomily, they’re a one term government, unless things drastically change; hence the maneuvers by Rayner

    Rayner as leader probably can’t alter Labour’s fate. But she has got the charisma Starmer entirely lacks and she could save them from oblivion
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,341

    I am fascinated by what it is that Tory dreamers think the return of Boris! can bring to the table.

    Boris had that bumbling charm which everyone got seriously sick of. If he brings that back doesn't it just remind everyone of partygate?
    Boris brought us an oven-ready Brexit deal. He can't sell the same thing twice, especially now we Ogdenvilleans have had a taste of his monorail.
    Boris offered to Build Back Better - a great slogan! But it was only ever a slogan, with broke councils being forced to spend money they couldn't afford to bit for a relatively small amount of cash which was offered everywhere and delivered nowhere.

    So what is the pitch?

    The pitch of charismatic leadership doesn't need to rely on the ordering of facts, incremental policy development, personal history or reasoned argument about the relationship of spending, taxing, debt and deficit. Trump, Farage, Boris all rely on quite different elements of how leadership works.

    The hole in our politics is exactly in the area of leadership who can be inspiring and real at the same time.

    Charismatic and unreal is more attractive than dull, unreal and evasive. Which largely is what we have now.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Guardian on Labour woes

    “Opinion polls don’t always provide a precise picture of voters’ mood – and the next general election is still four years away. But Labour strategists will doubtless be poring over the data, and it’s not pretty.

    Analysis by the Guardian found Labour’s drop in the opinion polls in its first 10 months of power is the largest of any newly elected UK government in 40 years.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2025/may/25/the-charts-that-show-just-how-worried-labour-should-be-about-the-polls

    I think of the 2026 and 2025 locals had been reversed Labour would have had that fourth behind the LDs with YouGov - next year will be apocalyptic for them. It's not impossible they go fourth in Scotland and, at best, they will be Plaids little helpers in Wales and they will likely lose well over 1000 councillors, possibly 1500-2000
    Yes, when you drill into the polling the situation for Labour is actually worse than it looks. eg

    “Labour is not winning the blame game on the economy – something that it put a lot of emphasis on in its early days of power with the chancellor Rachel Reeves’ claims of a “£22bn hole” of unfunded commitments for 2024.

    Among those who view the economy negatively, Ipsos polling shows that the decisions of Starmer and Reeves are seen as the biggest contributing factor (56%) – more significant than the Covid-19 pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.”

    So the whole “blame the Tories, look at the black hole” shtick has already failed, and will, of course, never succeed now. No one is going to think “no, wait, I was wrong - it WAS the Tories”

    Given that Labour have no clue what to do on the economy other than sad woke tinkering, this seems terminal. They need a Falklands War AND they need Farage to go away, and even that might not be enough
    The Scooby Gang will be peeling off Reeves mask to reveal it was Reeves all along.
    They are cooked. Actually the establishment is cooked.
    Where we probably differ is that I'm 100% convinced Farage breaking everyones hearts and hopes will be just as rapid
    I’m not sure we differ THAT much. I’m not convinced Farage is the solution either - I AM convinced we’ve tried everything else, so his road is the only option left

    I am also convinced that mass immigration and the increasingly desperate attempts by the Establishment to pretend that it is “working” and that “diversity is our strength” is at the root of many of our problems. From low productivity to housing to “two tier justice” to our fraying national identity - the continued importation of millions of people entirely foreign to the UK is making everything worse, fast

    This is not the fault of the migrants, who merely and naturally want a better life. It’s the fault of the politicians who have so casually opened our borders

    It’s an experiment that has failed, disastrously. It must be ended and remedied. The Danish social democrats have shown you can do this without tearing society apart. A sensible Labour government would copy them. We don’t have a sensible government

    So Farage it is
    Maybe we dont!
    The tide is certainly going out on mass migration into Europe generally, the longer the powers that be deny that obvious reality the worse the outfall.
    I'm sure Blair will tell us Digital ID is the answer. Even if the question was 'who is that ridiculous grinning twit?'
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,433
    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
    They all hate each other, so why should the rest of us put any faith in them?
    Well, quite!
    What is the point of them?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 31,361
    edited 9:03AM
    ...

    Given that Tice has admitted that Reform's tax cut promises are bollox why should anyone believe Farage's welfarist promises ?

    I don't find that a fair characterisation. Times change, and the fiscal and economical situation has worsened.

    I was re-reading Suella Braverman's piece on ending the 2 child cap, written back in 2023, and the cost is calculated at 2.4bn in 2024/25. But isn't it now 5bn in 2025/26? Crazy difference.
    Reform's tax cut promises were always bollox.

    Their welfarist promises are now bollox.

    If they want to 'reform' something then how about some suggestions as to how to deal with generational inequality and the pandering to pensioners.
    The state now sucks up a vast and unsustainable proportion of GDP. Pensioners getting a few more crumbs of it back than anyone else is not the problem - it's sheer distraction tactics and divide and rule.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 61,028

    Sean_F said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There's an interesting article on tory machinations in the ST this morning.

    Highlights...

    Everyone knows it's all over for KB. It's just a question of exactly which electoral calamities she is going to be the human shield for ahead of the inevitable binning. The bit about KB's giddyup speech after the locals was darkly amusing.

    Johnson's Tonton Macoute in the party have identified 8 seats which they think he can win in a by-election if the incumbent were to step aside.

    In an amazing development, apparently, the toothy doyenne of the Management Consultancy Industrial Complex, Laura Trott is being touted as a leadership candidate.

    Perhaps the problem isn't the leader, but the plotters themselves?
    That problem has been apparent for many years.
    As I have bored on about many times, when the party is subjected to a horrific defeat, and there's a press briefing from someone within CCHQ who clearly despises Kemi saying she 'spent the whole day doomscrolling on her phone' - how is that OK?

    SKS is the worst Prime Minister ever, and Labour must wish to be shot of him, but we don't get disgusted briefings every time he finishes the milk and doesn't tell anyone, or moodily fails to say 'good morning' to someone.

    I understand Kemi's reticence given that this is the same lot that got her in, but she must now realise that it's time to clean the stables.
    The Conservative group of MPs and the party hierarchy are really the most awful people in large part. They really are very petty and vindictive.
    What is the collective noun for Grima Wormtongues?
    They all hate each other, so why should the rest of us put any faith in them?
    Well, quite!
    What is the point of them?
    There is no point. Jenrick is the only one who exhibits an ounce of energy and imagination, the only one able to stick it to Labour. Yet apparently the rest of the Tories fear and loathe him, even as the rest are anonymous dorks. Who or what or why is a “Mel Stride”? The paucity of talent is embarrassing

    The last election was probably a fatal blow from which they’ll never recover

    🙏
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