Not sure whether they shook hands at the end, they cut away from it before you could see.

IanB2 said:

Trump now gone full Leon, predicting nuclear war

Well, the real Leon has given up watching it. I’ve retired to my Cascades mountain lodge room to watch Netflix and sip Shiraz

Night night

CBS summary is that Harris set out to goad Trump and Trump took the bait.

Their commentator pulling out Trump’s allegation that people are stealing pets to eat them as a stand out loony comment.

Jim_Miller said:

According to Jeff Stein of the WaPo: "Trump said the Biden administration has been “horrible” for manufacturing. Manufacturing employment is higher than it was under Trump, and the U.S. had as of August added more than 765,000 manufacturing jobs since January 2021."

Anyone know, offhand, how that compares to the EU?

https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/employment-manufacturing-eurostat-data.html

CBS White House correspondent says Dem HQ is elated

Harris whoppers?

Citation required.

Trump came across as a grotesque from an episode of The Simpsons. Ironic, given that Trump brought up Springfield...

CNN Instant poll "coming soon".

GIN1138 said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Trump's age is showing. He's a bit dozy compared to 4 and 8 years ago, unsurprisingly.

It’s a crying shame

Kamala Harris is a weak candidate and a decent antiWoke SANE Republican would mince her and the Dems

Unfortunately the GOP is in thrall to this nutter Trump

When Trump loses (hopefully by a landslide) it will force the GOP to finally come to their senses.

Why? It didn't in 2020.

CBS Rep analyst says Trump should have used the "why hasn't she done this already?" line throughout the debate and not saved it to the end

Taylor Swift's endorsement of Harris to her 230 million followers is important

Trump out to 2.12 on Betfair

CNN:

False claims in debate:

Harris 1
Trump 33

Harris now on stage in Philadelphia doing a rally at 11.26pm ET.

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

MarqueeMark said:

nico679 said:

MikeL said:

Harris has said she wants another debate.

If I was Harris I’d find a way to not agree another debate . She did very well tonight and perhaps take the win . If she’s determined to do another debate then make sure it’s open mics .

She won't need to. Trump's people won't let him do another. Unless they want to risk losing the Senate as well as the Presidency.

Let’s hope he decides to then ! If they do another debate then it has to be open mics and Harris should insist on that .

Who did you expect to win before debate started?

Trump 50
Harris 50

Confidence to lead country:

Harris and Trump both Yes 54, No 46

But when split Yes into a lot / some - more had a lot for Trump

CNN poll: Harris advanced particularly amongst Independents.

Barnesian said:

Taylor Swift's endorsement of Harris to her 230 million followers is important

Trump out to 2.12 on Betfair

And entirely expected and unsurprising.

MikeL said:

CNN of debate watchers - who won debate?

Trump 37
Harris 63

but debate watchers very similar partisan breakdown to overall US.

I doubt it will have much impact on the race.

This debate was just a test of Harris's credibility as a candidate, all the more important since Biden's catastrophic performance last time, which she passed.

It's nothing more than that.

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

A key point missing in a lot of post debate analysis is that Trump’s claim about immigrants eating pets almost perfectly syncs up to the piano in the Peanuts theme song.
https://x.com/NoahGarfinkel/status/1833708370974695574

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

Is Trump old?

Well, yes. And it appears to be increasingly showing.

Is he a white-guy?

Sometimes more orange, perhaps. But I'd call that a yes.

Does he show entitlement?

Hell, yes.

Is there a subset of old white-guys who seem to suffer from a feeling of entitlement?

Again, yes. That's not all old white-guys; but most of us probably know one or two.

Is Trump in that subset?

Yes.

The truth is not 'woke'. The evil is done when people try to hide the truth.

More CNN:

Who understands problems facing you:

Harris 44 (before debate 39)
Trump 40 (before debate 43)

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

You shouldn't, you should just describe Trump's entitlement as an individual.

Otherwise you are casting aspersions on an entire group of people - all old white men - which is identity politics and fuels polarisation.

MikeL said:

Who would better handle economy?

Harris 35 (before debate 37)
Trump 55 (before debate 53)

So Economy is by far Trump's strongest area.

And one that still makes him competitive.

There is still nearly two months to go and more debates to come.

Casino_Royale said:

MikeL said:

Who would better handle economy?

Harris 35 (before debate 37)
Trump 55 (before debate 53)

So Economy is by far Trump's strongest area.

And one that still makes him competitive.

There is still nearly two months to go and more debates to come.

That was the only scheduled debate between Harris and Trump.

There’s one debate between Walz and Vance still to come.

Sandpit said:

IanB2 said:

CBS summary is that Harris set out to goad Trump and Trump took the bait.

Their commentator pulling out Trump’s allegation that people are stealing pets to eat them as a stand out loony comment.

Ironically that’s the one story for which there might actually be a grain of truth, that could be stood up in the coming days.

There were plenty of other whoppers from the pair of them, on which better to focus.

It's like the "kids identifying as cats and schools have to provide litter trays story".

tlg86 said:

JosiasJessop said:

So the important question:

Was Trump better or worse in this debate than Biden was in the first?

Based purely on what I’ve seen on Sky news at 6am, trump was a lot better. I’m not following it closely, but I’m getting that familiar feeling of the British media projecting their wishes on to events.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trump-harris-face-off-there-clear-winner-dont-believe-election-over

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

Casino_Royale said:

MikeL said:

Who would better handle economy?

Harris 35 (before debate 37)
Trump 55 (before debate 53)

So Economy is by far Trump's strongest area.

And one that still makes him competitive.

There is still nearly two months to go and more debates to come.

That was the only scheduled debate between Harris and Trump.

There’s one debate between Walz and Vance still to come.

I thought there was one more in October, at least.

Has that been cancelled?

Would seem absurd that's there's nothing more between them until polling day now.

That's the Veep debate.

Harris would agree to others, but not if they were on Fox.

Trump would only agree to one on Fox moderated by a figure of his choice.

Impasse.

(To be fair, after last night even a partisan mod and a Fox audience wouldn't appear likely to save Trump from embarrassment, so maybe she should u-turn on that.)

Casino_Royale said:

Sandpit said:

Casino_Royale said:

MikeL said:

Who would better handle economy?

Harris 35 (before debate 37)
Trump 55 (before debate 53)

So Economy is by far Trump's strongest area.

And one that still makes him competitive.

There is still nearly two months to go and more debates to come.

That was the only scheduled debate between Harris and Trump.

There’s one debate between Walz and Vance still to come.

I thought there was one more in October, at least.

Has that been cancelled?

Would seem absurd that's there's nothing more between them until polling day now.

1st October is Walz and Vance.

I suspect that there will be one more debate scheduled, as some in the Harris team have suggested tonight. It wasn’t the total car crash it could have been for them, and Trump likes the debate format. They’ll likely spend a week arguing about the details, and then agree to something mid-October.

Traditionally there’s always been more than one debate, the last couple of elections have each had three debates between the Presidential candidates.

MikeL said:

The VP debate is on CBS.

CNN said that IF there is another Trump v Harris debate it will likely be on NBC.

I very much doubt if Trump would agree to that. First it would look like desperation and second, he will kid himself it was the fault of the mods and the audience and he really won, so why try again?

kamski said:

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

Is Trump old?

Well, yes. And it appears to be increasingly showing.

Is he a white-guy?

Sometimes more orange, perhaps. But I'd call that a yes.

Does he show entitlement?

Hell, yes.

Is there a subset of old white-guys who seem to suffer from a feeling of entitlement?

Again, yes. That's not all old white-guys; but most of us probably know one or two.

Is Trump in that subset?

Yes.

The truth is not 'woke'. The evil is done when people try to hide the truth.

But casino makes a valid point - why use language that is going to needlessly alienate old white guys (and those close to them) who buy into the feeling that they are being attacked just for being old white guys.

Better to point out that Trump is, and always has been, a whiny bigot who was born into wealth and constantly falsely plays the victim. He can keep the whiny racist billionaire vote - they're not going to vote Harris anyway.

That is a valid point; but these guys exist, enough to be a trope in many TV shows and films. But MM did not accuse all old white guys of entitlement; just that he shows an entitlement that can be found in some old white guys.

I don't have a problem with the term "old white-guy entitlement". But that also means that I shouldn't have a problem with similar terms used about other groupings. And that's where a problem lies: many people on left and right are happy to throw around grouping terms for people they don't like, but unhappy when one is used that might apply to them.

You also said: "whiny racist billionaire vote", which has exactly the same problem as "old white-guy entitlement"; most billionaires are not whiny or racist.

mercator said:

Casino_Royale said:

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Yes. Your hypothetical is actually pretty much an actual because Spain's ransacking of South America C16-17 was equivalent to finding and excavating the pots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

Or to half-remember a PJ O'Rourke line, it was like robbing a bank, stealing all the little pens and nothing else.

All the interesting new things there, and they took the uninteresting thing they understood.

People have always been people.

Stuartinromford said:

mercator said:

Casino_Royale said:

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Yes. Your hypothetical is actually pretty much an actual because Spain's ransacking of South America C16-17 was equivalent to finding and excavating the pots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

Or to half-remember a PJ O'Rourke line, it was like robbing a bank, stealing all the little pens and nothing else.

All the interesting new things there, and they took the uninteresting thing they understood.

People have always been people.

We got potatos, tomatos and tobacco too. And syphilis.

Easy to read the debate from here.

The closet Trumpistas come over as utterly deflated. That will do.

I didn't stay up for this debate, or the last one, early start for work so couldn't.

Much better news to be reading this time than last time it seems.

Kamala has completely turned the page on Biden's failure last time and Trump is now left as the bitter loser he always was without having the chance of winning by default.

Casino_Royale said:

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Only if we only just managed to defeat the leprechauns to seize it.

We may now see this in action in Ireland. An election is due within six months. Everyone and their mother will promise to spend the pot of gold (€14bn) that's fallen into the Irish government's lap after losing the Apple tax case. Probably promise to spend it twice over. And the economy is already growing at capacity.

mercator said:

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

mercator said:

Casino_Royale said:

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Yes. Your hypothetical is actually pretty much an actual because Spain's ransacking of South America C16-17 was equivalent to finding and excavating the pots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

Or to half-remember a PJ O'Rourke line, it was like robbing a bank, stealing all the little pens and nothing else.

All the interesting new things there, and they took the uninteresting thing they understood.

People have always been people.

I think that's a bit like archaeology in the past: they took all the shiny baubles because they looked interesting and valuable, where archaeologically they were not of as much interest as the stuff they threw on the rubbish tip.

"In the past" - if only. UK archaeologists I know are unanimous that more damage is still being done in the middle east by shit archaeologists than by out and out robbery.

Mrs J has occasionally said that she wished that Turkey had a Time Team-style program so people might appreciate their country's massively rich archeological wealth.

Her mum was from the south of the country, near Tarsus, and when she was a kid would occasionally find Roman coins, including gold ones, whilst digging in the garden. Which would promptly be sold, because everyone was poor.

(Her uncle also taught her to fish using explosives...)

Here's a campaign I am sure we can all get behind

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle/style/mel-b-leads-campaign-against-afro-hair-discrimination/ar-AA1qk4vU?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=3967b9ab31a54a789b9258d80fe57879&ei=11

The debate Harris needed, followed by the holy grail of the Taylor Swift endorsement.

Couldn’t have been a better night for the Dems really.

Casino_Royale said:

MikeL said:

CNN of debate watchers - who won debate?

Trump 37
Harris 63

but debate watchers very similar partisan breakdown to overall US.

I doubt it will have much impact on the race.

This debate was just a test of Harris's credibility as a candidate, all the more important since Biden's catastrophic performance last time, which she passed.

It's nothing more than that.

Broadly true, but there's also a point about the more swing voters see the crazy side of Trump up close, the worse he does. He's never been more popular in this cycle than when he was mostly off the airwaves and the focus was on the Dems' failings.

When he shuts up, it's possible to create a mythical version of him in your head that's not all that bad really, and cling on to the more conventionally GOP stuff you might support. When there's an old man rambling like a loony about eating dogs and threatening coups it really isn't.

So any time Donald Trump spends being challenged on camera in front of a major audience is good for Harris.

It was the arguably the same in 2020 - when Trump threw away an election he should have won with his incoherent babblings and ill-advised interventions, allowing Biden to pitch as the sane option who'd stop the madness.

mercator said:

JosiasJessop said:

mercator said:

JosiasJessop said:

Stuartinromford said:

mercator said:

Casino_Royale said:

If there was a pot of gold at the bottom of every rainbow, would that pose an inflationary problem?

Yes. Your hypothetical is actually pretty much an actual because Spain's ransacking of South America C16-17 was equivalent to finding and excavating the pots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_revolution

Or to half-remember a PJ O'Rourke line, it was like robbing a bank, stealing all the little pens and nothing else.

All the interesting new things there, and they took the uninteresting thing they understood.

People have always been people.

I think that's a bit like archaeology in the past: they took all the shiny baubles because they looked interesting and valuable, where archaeologically they were not of as much interest as the stuff they threw on the rubbish tip.

"In the past" - if only. UK archaeologists I know are unanimous that more damage is still being done in the middle east by shit archaeologists than by out and out robbery.

Mrs J has occasionally said that she wished that Turkey had a Time Team-style program so people might appreciate their country's massively rich archeological wealth.

Her mum was from the south of the country, near Tarsus, and when she was a kid would occasionally find Roman coins, including gold ones, whilst digging in the garden. Which would promptly be sold, because everyone was poor.

(Her uncle also taught her to fish using explosives...)

Turks are rightly very proud of their heritage. A key phrase for the traveller is çok eski - very old.

Indeed, but heritage != archaeology. The Victorians who dumped bones in piles whilst looking for baubles were also very proud of their heritage,

Though they are getting better at times.

Sandpit said:

IanB2 said:

CBS summary is that Harris set out to goad Trump and Trump took the bait.

Their commentator pulling out Trump’s allegation that people are stealing pets to eat them as a stand out loony comment.

Ironically that’s the one story for which there might actually be a grain of truth, that could be stood up in the coming days.

There were plenty of other whoppers from the pair of them, on which better to focus.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/no-evidence-haitian-immigrants-stealing-eating-pets-ohio-2024-09-10/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cats-ducks-haitians-springfield/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77l28myezko says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/baseless-claim-haiti-immigrants-cats-springfield-ohio/ says pet eating story is nosense.

Sandpit: “that could be stood up in the coming days.”

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

Is Trump old?

Well, yes. And it appears to be increasingly showing.

Is he a white-guy?

Sometimes more orange, perhaps. But I'd call that a yes.

Does he show entitlement?

Hell, yes.

Is there a subset of old white-guys who seem to suffer from a feeling of entitlement?

Again, yes. That's not all old white-guys; but most of us probably know one or two.

Is Trump in that subset?

Yes.

The truth is not 'woke'. The evil is done when people try to hide the truth.

But casino makes a valid point - why use language that is going to needlessly alienate old white guys (and those close to them) who buy into the feeling that they are being attacked just for being old white guys.

Better to point out that Trump is, and always has been, a whiny bigot who was born into wealth and constantly falsely plays the victim. He can keep the whiny racist billionaire vote - they're not going to vote Harris anyway.

That is a valid point; but these guys exist, enough to be a trope in many TV shows and films. But MM did not accuse all old white guys of entitlement; just that he shows an entitlement that can be found in some old white guys.

I don't have a problem with the term "old white-guy entitlement". But that also means that I shouldn't have a problem with similar terms used about other groupings. And that's where a problem lies: many people on left and right are happy to throw around grouping terms for people they don't like, but unhappy when one is used that might apply to them.

You also said: "whiny racist billionaire vote", which has exactly the same problem as "old white-guy entitlement"; most billionaires are not whiny or racist.

I don't think it is exactly the same problem at all.

Firstly, and most importantly, Harris can easily win without a single vote from whiny racist billionaires (and like I said they aren't voting for her anyway). She's not going to win without any votes from old white guys.

Secondly, you would have a bit of a point if "billionaire racism" was an established thing. There's an idea that old white guys are likely to be "entitled". I've not heard the idea that billionaires are especially likely to be racists. So when I talk about whiny racist billionaires isn't it clear that I'm talking specifically about individuals like Trump who fit the description?

Thirdly "whiny racist billionaires" is obviously intended as a humorous demographic label.

bondegezou said:

Sandpit said:

IanB2 said:

CBS summary is that Harris set out to goad Trump and Trump took the bait.

Their commentator pulling out Trump’s allegation that people are stealing pets to eat them as a stand out loony comment.

Ironically that’s the one story for which there might actually be a grain of truth, that could be stood up in the coming days.

There were plenty of other whoppers from the pair of them, on which better to focus.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/no-evidence-haitian-immigrants-stealing-eating-pets-ohio-2024-09-10/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cats-ducks-haitians-springfield/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77l28myezko says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/baseless-claim-haiti-immigrants-cats-springfield-ohio/ says pet eating story is nosense.

Sandpit: “that could be stood up in the coming days.”

It's a bit of an old racist trope, like in my youth when Chinese restaurants were rumoured to be catching and serving up local cats.

It works with the audience though. The lie is round the world before the truth has its boots on.

NEW THREAD

Foxy said:

bondegezou said:

Sandpit said:

IanB2 said:

CBS summary is that Harris set out to goad Trump and Trump took the bait.

Their commentator pulling out Trump’s allegation that people are stealing pets to eat them as a stand out loony comment.

Ironically that’s the one story for which there might actually be a grain of truth, that could be stood up in the coming days.

There were plenty of other whoppers from the pair of them, on which better to focus.

https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/no-evidence-haitian-immigrants-stealing-eating-pets-ohio-2024-09-10/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cats-ducks-haitians-springfield/ says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77l28myezko says pet eating story is nonsense.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/baseless-claim-haiti-immigrants-cats-springfield-ohio/ says pet eating story is nosense.

Sandpit: “that could be stood up in the coming days.”

It's a bit of an old racist trope, like in my youth when Chinese restaurants were rumoured to be catching and serving up local cats.

It works with the audience though. The lie is round the world before the truth has its boots on.

It has echoes of blood libel.

JosiasJessop said:

kamski said:

Casino_Royale said:

MarqueeMark said:

MikeL said:

Trump spoke for 5 more mins - 42 mins to 37 mins.

That was a failure by the moderators. They needed to turn off his mic - and cut off his old, white-guy entitlement.

Surprised to see Wokespeak from you.

How should we describe Trump's "old white-guy entitlement"?

Is Trump old?

Well, yes. And it appears to be increasingly showing.

Is he a white-guy?

Sometimes more orange, perhaps. But I'd call that a yes.

Does he show entitlement?

Hell, yes.

Is there a subset of old white-guys who seem to suffer from a feeling of entitlement?

Again, yes. That's not all old white-guys; but most of us probably know one or two.

Is Trump in that subset?

Yes.

The truth is not 'woke'. The evil is done when people try to hide the truth.

The issue is that “old white guy entitlement” implies that he’s behaving like this because a he’s an old white guy.

That’s wrong. He’s a dangerous manipulative arsehole. That’s why he behaves like this