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Can you spot the trend? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981
    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1820041010598027648

    Well this is very bad from Jenrick.

    I hope he isn't saying what he thinks he should to win
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313

    I don’t think it’s coincidence that the riots have started now that the party of Braverman and Jenrick are no longer in power.
    I think there's quite a lot wrong with your logic in this. There might be a factor with Labour being in power, and a perception that they're going to be relaxed about immigration. I don't think even if there is that its a big effect, nor based on any sensible thought by those involved. Labour being in power means he Tories aren't, but I can't see that a Tory government is respected in a degree that makes civil unrest less likely - often rather the reverse. Braverman and Jenrick have been mostly irrelevant to the Tory party, and I hope that Braverman in particular continues to be so.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited August 2024
    Leon said:

    Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly

    And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?

    It was insanely irresponsible
    The ballot box of Brexit ended free movement from the EU/EEA, which was the only thing a referendum on EU membership could end.

    Yes Johnson and Truss then increased immigration from the rest of the world to make up for it, which Sunak to his credit with Cleverly then introduced tighter visa requirements to cut. Yet non EU immigration was not on the ballot paper in 2016, indeed some ethnic minority Leave voters voted Leave precisely to increase visas for their families back home not EU families.

    The irony is that EDL types would now probably prefer to have kept the white Christian Poles and not had anymore Muslims from Africa and South Asia
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    malcolmg said:

    Fairlie , Rich , very rich or rich pensioners and Tory through and through
    Hardly, there are more rich LD, anti Brexit pensioners on this board now than Tories
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 981

    The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?

    The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.

    LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.

    It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470
    HYUFD said:

    Hardly, there are more rich LD, anti Brexit pensioners on this board now than Tories
    Though in his thinking on benefits for the unemployed etc, @malcolmg is to the Right on the Conservative Party…
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.

    What nonsense. The contempt for the thick racist white oiks is oozing out of the Guardian, et al

    If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly

    And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?

    It was insanely irresponsible
    This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).

    So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,198

    The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.

    We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
  • Leon said:

    What nonsense. The contempt for the thick racist white oiks is oozing out of the Guardian, et al

    If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term

    Don't you think thick racists should be treated with contempt? The assumption that such people are working class is yours.

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    Ed Miliband made a mistake during the 2011 riots by trying to talk a bit about underlying social issues. I don't think it ever works. All you can do in the moment is demand the police restore order.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,774
    Nunu5 said:

    LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.

    It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
    They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,198
    HYUFD said:

    The ballot box of Brexit ended free movement from the EU/EEA, which was the only thing a referendum on EU membership could end.

    Yes Johnson and Truss then increased immigration from the rest of the world to make up for it, which Sunak to his credit with Cleverly then introduced tighter visa requirements to cut. Yet non EU immigration was not on the ballot paper in 2016, indeed some ethnic minority Leave voters voted Leave precisely to increase visas for their families back home not EU families.

    The irony is that EDL types would now probably prefer to have kept the white Christian Poles and not had anymore Muslims from Africa and South Asia
    How did Truss increase immigration?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    FF43 said:

    They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
    But this is bullshit. Brexit did genuinely cut FoM immigration. By a huge amount. But the government expanded immigration elsewhere. So national democracy can correct that (as it has if Starmer doesn't roll back the Sunak limits), and we will be in a good place on immigration policy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited August 2024
    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1820041010598027648

    Well this is very bad from Jenrick.

    I hope he isn't saying what he thinks he should to win

    I expect all the Tory leadership candidates except Tugendhat and Stride would back Trump over Harris.

    In May just 39% of 2019 Conservative voters wanted Biden to win re election, with 31% backing Trump the rest neither.


    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49488-biden-vs-trump-2024-how-much-of-a-difference-do-britons-think-it-makes-who-wins
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,198
    edited August 2024

    Ed Miliband made a mistake during the 2011 riots by trying to talk a bit about underlying social issues. I don't think it ever works. All you can do in the moment is demand the police restore order.

    I agree. Discussions about the whys and wherefores need to wait until after order has been restored. Which is why Starmer’s words about the far right seem unnecessary and ill-judged.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313
    Leon said:

    Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly

    And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?

    It was insanely irresponsible
    You're being ridiculous. The Brexit referendum was a simple question - remain in, or leave the EU. The referendum didn't say 'and we'll get this that and the other' - it was just a simple choice. Of course that choice had implications, and, rather wildly, many 'leave' voters imagined one of those implications was that immigration would change in some way to just be the immigration we liked. However it was pretty obvious that messing up all your border treaties isn't a good way to do anything much about borders other than to make things more chaotic.


    The Tories are though entirely to blame, and particularly Boris. He could have, and should have negotiated new agreements with the EU that enabled a degree of delivery on what he and others had said Brexit was all about (although as stated above it was just a simple question). What we got instead was several years of government paralysis over the issue of how the government could possibly explain, and most particularly, excuse itself.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,452
    WillG said:

    This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).

    So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
    All the maths suggests that net migration will fall rapidly in the next year or two. It’s almost impossible for it not to.

    - The post-Covid distortion of the student stats will work through and reverse
    - likewise the Ukraine and HK influxes
    - The rather draconian rule changes by the last government on marriage and family visas will have an impact

    Of course what people focus most on is small boats and refugees, or they conflate these with legal migration. But the numbers coming down will have an effect on the narrative.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,998
    edited August 2024
    Nunu5 said:

    LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.

    It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?

    I have no doubt that a lot of people want less immigration. But they also want better public services, lower taxes, a properly functioning NHS and so on. And they want all this against the backdrop of an ageing population. Do you think Johnson opened the door on hundreds of thousands of new immigrants from outside Europe because he wanted to rub his electorate's noises in diversity or because he could not see any other way to deliver on the promises he had made? If we want much lower immigration we have to accept the consequences. No politician anywhere is currently prepared to state what they are, including: much higher retirement ages, a much smaller public sector, private health insurance, a much smaller, more expensive hospitality sector etc.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Leon said:

    Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.

    Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?

    Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.

    The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
  • bobbobbobbob Posts: 100
    Leon said:

    OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it

    No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!

    The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard

    This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
    100% agree !!!

    It’s also to send a clear message from REAL CONSERVATIVES about Labours dangerous woke extreme leftist agenda

    The timing isn’t a coincidence

    Daily mail said it best its labour’s “SUMMER OF DISCONTENT”
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,910

    The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.

    Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.

    Typical comment in the Mail.

    "People who came here illegally being put up in 3 and 4 star hotels, with free food, gas and electricity, while Brits are living in damp and mould infested properties where patch-work repairs by the landlord take months."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13707233/Balaclava-clad-activists-swilling-beer-cans-begin-protest-outside-migrant-hotel-Rotherham-just-hours-thugs-tore-cities-apart-violent-riots-Keir-Starmer-slammed-going-holiday-Britain-burns.html#comments
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,198
    FF43 said:

    They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
    Brexit gave elected British Governments control over immigration. It did not dictate what they did with that control. That's a very simple concept to grasp, not to do so indicates either that you are stupid, or that you think we are. I am sure neither of those things are true, so why not save the argument for a more receptive audience?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    Omnium said:

    I think there's quite a lot wrong with your logic in this. There might be a factor with Labour being in power, and a perception that they're going to be relaxed about immigration. I don't think even if there is that its a big effect, nor based on any sensible thought by those involved. Labour being in power means he Tories aren't, but I can't see that a Tory government is respected in a degree that makes civil unrest less likely - often rather the reverse. Braverman and Jenrick have been mostly irrelevant to the Tory party, and I hope that Braverman in particular continues to be so.

    The only way this might be affected by partisan politics is the way Starmer is seen as weak on the boats. Rwanda. But I doubt even that is a factor

    It’s a long slow build up of resentment finally exploding. Indeed it was predicted by rachel reeves herself who warned of anti-immigration riots back in 2016 “unless we get migration under control”
  • kamskikamski Posts: 6,163
    WillG said:

    It was a guy of Algerian background who stabbed kids. And they never released the motive, which seems suspcious. Meanwhile the Irish press went into detail about the far right details of the rioters. We need more consistency.
    "they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973
    edited August 2024
    Leon said:

    It was only @Heathener i believe. And she is quite “eccentric”
    Another organ not unfamiliar to you was doing a bit of throbbing.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-starmers-are-sexy/
  • We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.

    Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:

    Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice.
    A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community.
    And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool…
    These people are showing our country exactly who they are.
    Mosques targeted because they are Mosques.
    Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill.
    A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph.
    And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets.
    Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.

    I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.




  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,304
    HYUFD said:

    I expect all the Tory leadership candidates except Tugendhat and Stride would back Trump over Harris.

    In May just 39% of 2019 Conservative voters wanted Biden to win re election, with 31% backing Trump the rest neither.


    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49488-biden-vs-trump-2024-how-much-of-a-difference-do-britons-think-it-makes-who-wins
    Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,483
    kamski said:

    "they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
    He is yet to come to trial. We will presumably learn of his motive during the trial (unless he pleads guilty)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    Scott_xP said:

    Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?

    Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.

    The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
    No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right

    You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    Arizona - 🟡 Tie
    Georgia - 🔵 Harris +3
    Nevada - 🔵 Harris +2
    Michigan 🟡 Tie
    Pennsylvania - 🟡 Tie
    Wisconsin - 🔴 Trump+1
    North Carolina - 🔴 Trump +3
    https://x.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1820086972829831669
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:

    Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice.
    A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community.
    And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool…
    These people are showing our country exactly who they are.
    Mosques targeted because they are Mosques.
    Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill.
    A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph.
    And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets.
    Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.

    I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.




    He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    kamski said:

    "they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
    Ok, can you release where it says the police believe the motive is unknown after thorough investigation? Because I can't see it anywhere.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Leon said:

    I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right

    Immigration increased as a result of Brexit

    You know this

    If you want a "grown up" conversation, you might start there
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    @ElleRudd_

    If I see one more classist comment I might scream.

    Who is it cleaning up the towns after they were destroyed? The working class.

    Who is it whose jobs have been impacted by looting and rioting? The working class.

    Who is egging riots on from their mansions? NOT the working class
  • TresTres Posts: 2,755
    Leon said:

    He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
    violent BLM riots - fake news - in this country most of the arrests were Tommy Robinson fans counter protesting
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,558
    WillG said:

    This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).

    So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
    Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    JohnO said:

    Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
    As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    He is yet to come to trial. We will presumably learn of his motive during the trial (unless he pleads guilty)
    And yet the believed motives of rioters and vandals as being "far right" and "anti-immigration" are happily released before trial, indeed immediately.
  • Leon said:

    He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite

    You voted for him.

  • TresTres Posts: 2,755
    Oh I see the Rotherham hotel that Lee Anderson falsely claimed was housing asylum seekers is under attack. Very well done Mr Anderson.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    "Concerned citizens" are currently ransacking a hotel in Rotherham
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 439
    edited August 2024

    Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:

    Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice.
    A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community.
    And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool…
    These people are showing our country exactly who they are.
    Mosques targeted because they are Mosques.
    Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill.
    A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph.
    And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets.
    Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.

    I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.




    Yes.

    From what I can see, Starmer is 100% spot on with his approach.

    This is exactly what I voted for.

    He’s restoring principle and competence.

    Cometh the moment, cometh the man.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,774

    Brexit gave elected British Governments control over immigration. It did not dictate what they did with that control. That's a very simple concept to grasp, not to do so indicates either that you are stupid, or that you think we are. I am sure neither of those things are true, so why not save the argument for a more receptive audience?
    I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    Andy_JS said:

    Typical comment in the Mail.

    "People who came here illegally being put up in 3 and 4 star hotels, with free food, gas and electricity, while Brits are living in damp and mould infested properties where patch-work repairs by the landlord take months."

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13707233/Balaclava-clad-activists-swilling-beer-cans-begin-protest-outside-migrant-hotel-Rotherham-just-hours-thugs-tore-cities-apart-violent-riots-Keir-Starmer-slammed-going-holiday-Britain-burns.html#comments
    Those comments are extraordinary. Almost pro-riot. And thousands of them

    Of course, we must be wary - how many of these are made by bots in Novosibirsk?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
    The Sunak reforms substanstially increased the qualifying criteria for universities sponsoring foreign students, increased the financial maintenance thresholds for students, and banned the vast majority of students from bringing family dependents.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296
    Leon said:

    No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right

    You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
    Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313
    edited August 2024
    Leon said:

    The only way this might be affected by partisan politics is the way Starmer is seen as weak on the boats. Rwanda. But I doubt even that is a factor

    It’s a long slow build up of resentment finally exploding. Indeed it was predicted by rachel reeves herself who warned of anti-immigration riots back in 2016 “unless we get migration under control”
    Not really that much of a political issue, as you say.

    I think you're right about a long slow build up too. I'm not sure resentment is the right word though. The UK really has done very well in my view in embracing immigration, but its not a bump-free journey. It seems to me that in the UK areas which mix everyone up together have done this best. Generally that's been the path we've taken. In Europe often there is more ghetto like distributions, and that seems to have produced a greater degree of polarisation.

    We, all of us in the UK, really are better than these disappointing thugs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    You voted for him.

    Because the choice was almost as bad as Biden v Trump

    I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited August 2024

    1960 result far more nuanced than "Daley stole Chicago":

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2000/10/was-nixon-robbed.html
    Trying to give history lessons to the Vicar is less profitable than lecturing your cat on artificial intelligence.

    ADDENDUM - For those interested, check out "Courthouse over White House: Chicago and the Presidential Election of 1960" by Edmund F Kallina Jr. which is based on . . . wait for it . . . actual research.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    FF43 said:

    I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.

    Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.

    Ending FoM increased immigration.

    Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    kinabalu said:

    Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
    Because I don’t have an issue with Polish plumbers. Never did
  • Leon said:

    Because the choice was almost as bad as Biden v Trump

    I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence

    You voted for him knowing he'd taken the knee in 2020. You may be the only poster on PB who did vote for him.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,558
    WillG said:

    The Sunak reforms substanstially increased the qualifying criteria for universities sponsoring foreign students, increased the financial maintenance thresholds for students, and banned the vast majority of students from bringing family dependents.
    Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470

    Don't you think thick racists should be treated with contempt? The assumption that such people are working class is yours.

    The descriptions of shaven headed oiks with swastika tattoos, drinking cheaper lager and urinating in the street do not suggest sociology professors from Bloomsbury.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    Watching fucking thick chavs and cops beat the shit out of each is great. It's the same sort of relaxed vibe you get from watching a good football match where you really don't care who wins or loses.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,068
    .
    HYUFD said:

    Yes, legally the records manager can destroy any records not required under the organisation's retention schedule, whether for legal or operational reasons as you say. However some records will be transferred to the archives for historical research purposes for the archivist to maintain and these records include the ones with Huw Edwards on broadcasts of state events the BBC are now tampering with
    They are not destroying any records. They are not tampering with records. They've taken some things off iPlayer. Archivists can still go do their historical research.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    You voted for him knowing he'd taken the knee in 2020. You may be the only poster on PB who did vote for him.

    As I said, I gave him a chance
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Dura_Ace said:

    Watching fucking thick chavs and cops beat the shit out of each is great. It's the same sort of relaxed vibe you get from watching a good football match where you really don't care who wins or loses.

    @JusticeTrousers

    Just saw the brick to the bollocks lad being called "Eunuch Powell"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,152
    kinabalu said:

    Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
    As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    Le Purge de Béziers
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,313
    WillG said:

    As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
    Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?

    (I'd strongly prefer all of our politicians to never comment on US politics.)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,737
    edited August 2024
    Scott_xP said:

    Like this asshat

    https://x.com/LeeAndersonMP_/status/1820051988182081824

    @mikeysmith

    If we’re doing daft maths, 12 million more people voted for remain in 2016 than for Reform in 2024.
    The word that I hear from one or two acquaintances who were at school with Anderson imply that he is something of an Idiot, whom I suggest may be laid aside when he is no longer Useful.

    What is the remaining half-life of a mid-range klutz who is into his third or fourth political regeneration?

    (Not that I have much faith in my own judgement, you understand :wink: )
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
    Danish-style policies do not stop Romanian scammers and Bulgarian beggars from entering the country.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,558
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.

    Ending FoM increased immigration.

    Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
    With respect, you are talking shite.

    Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.

    The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.

    Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,470

    As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
    Not to mention the French policy of aggressiveness in the export market for Imams with foreign nationalities.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
    But it's not one horse. There are still millions of horses in the stable trying to get through the door. If you cared about actually reducing the problem rather than just bitching, that would matter to you.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,068
    WillG said:

    The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.

    We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
    There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081

    Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.

    Bollocks

    Without Brexit they would not have enacted that policy. They didn't need to
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,157
    Omnium said:

    Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?
    🎶 You'll be back, soon, you'll see. You'll remember you belong to me. 🎶
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows

    Police clearly outnumbered

    What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to
  • Tres said:

    Oh I see the Rotherham hotel that Lee Anderson falsely claimed was housing asylum seekers is under attack. Very well done Mr Anderson.

    Is it that one? I thought it had been confirmed there were no asylum seekers there.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    Omnium said:

    Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?

    (I'd strongly prefer all of our politicians to never comment on US politics.)
    A true North American Tory would have moved to what became Canada after the US War of Independence and retained the King as their head of state!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Leon said:

    Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows

    Police clearly outnumbered

    They have tried to set fire to the building after barricading the doors

    That looks like attempted murder
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Leon said:

    Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows

    Police clearly outnumbered

    What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to

    Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,928

    There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
    The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Scott_xP said:

    Bollocks

    Without Brexit they would not have enacted that policy. They didn't need to
    The only "need" is driven by the desires of the economic elite to keep wages low to pad their profits.
  • Leon said:

    Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows

    Police clearly outnumbered

    What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to

    There you go again - the white working class, all of it.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited August 2024

    Trying to give history lessons to the Vicar is less profitable than lecturing your cat on artificial intelligence.

    ADDENDUM - For those interested, check out "Courthouse over White House: Chicago and the Presidential Election of 1960" by Edmund F Kallina Jr. which is based on . . . wait for it . . . actual research.
    Nothing in that article refutes the fact that it was Mayor Daley's dodgy vote finding that won Illinois for JFK and Nixon likely would have otherwise won the popular vote as a result.

    Though as I said JFK's pick of LBJ for VP won him Texas and the EC still anyway
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
    Either you are monumentally ignorant or the worst type of person who is willing to let more young girls get raped to help their ideology. 1400 girls got raped in Rotherham alone according to the official report. And we know of at least two dozen towns where similar situations went on. They just wouldn't release estimated victim numbers anywhere else, things got pushed into a nationa report, which then got delayed multiple times, and then had the focus on street grooming removed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910
    WillG said:

    Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
    Yes. Of all the places to put male asylum seekers, surely the last would be Rotherham

    To me that hotel looks empty. I hope I’m right because otherwise people could easily die

    Grim grim grim
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.

    Ending FoM increased immigration.

    Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
    Ending FoM reduced immigration. There are clear numbers showing how many came under FoM and how zero came under FoM afterwards. Only the thickest of Remainiacs try to do logical backflips to deny this.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,296

    As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
    I wasn't on the previous thread, William, so nothing can have been established.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029
    And of course Sarah Champion was marginalized from Labour leadership consideration based on her truth telling here.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,408

    Is it that one? I thought it had been confirmed there were no asylum seekers there.

    That’s irrelevant. Thickos in search of a rammy don’t need the truth.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,068

    With respect, you are talking shite.

    Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.

    The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.

    Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.
    Freedom of movement provided flexibility for the labour market, with people coming and going to fill vacancies. Without that, we have seen more long-term immigration.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,068

    The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029
    She was wrong then and, as far as I know, hasn't put forth such claims recently.
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    Freedom of movement provided flexibility for the labour market, with people coming and going to fill vacancies. Without that, we have seen more long-term immigration.
    No, that isn't what happened. We decided to let in Ukrainian and Hong Kong asylum seekers and we reduced the restrictions on skilled worker visas. But all immigration law is now under HMG control, relaxations can be reversed and new controls have been put in place. Which is what Sunak has now done.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029
    When the scale of the grooming scandal became clear - at least tens of thousands of white girls raped around the country - I was amazed no one rioted then. The British are an exceptionally peaceable people - or exceptionally stolid and apathetic

    Sadly, it seems that exception has ended
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973
    Leon said:

    Le Purge de Béziers

    Purge them all; God will know his own.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    WillG said:

    No, that isn't what happened.

    It really is
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,068
    WillG said:

    Either you are monumentally ignorant or the worst type of person who is willing to let more young girls get raped to help their ideology. 1400 girls got raped in Rotherham alone according to the official report. And we know of at least two dozen towns where similar situations went on. They just wouldn't release estimated victim numbers anywhere else, things got pushed into a nationa report, which then got delayed multiple times, and then had the focus on street grooming removed.
    What happened in Rotherham was horrendous and we absolutely should continue learning lessons from those events. The government produced a report on the national situation, available at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fd87e348fa8f54d5733f532/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf The report clearly lays out its evidence base and seems reliable. Apparently, you reject that report because it doesn't say what you and your prejudices want, so you invent unproven conspiracy theories about information being withheld. You are parroting what Tommy Robinson and his goons say.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,973

    That’s irrelevant. Thickos in search of a rammy don’t need the truth.
    Paediatricians should be assessing their security.
  • WillG said:

    Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
    I see you're in the Jews were responsible for Kristallnacht phase.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,910

    That’s irrelevant. Thickos in search of a rammy don’t need the truth.
    Charity workers on TwiX are saying it IS used to house asylum seekers
  • Sky showing demonstrators actually going inside the Holiday Inn in Rotherham as police are pinned back

    This is very serious and I fear nobody can predict the consequences of this unrest
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,152

    There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
    Does your definition of "disinformation" include things that are factually true?
  • WillGWillG Posts: 2,366

    She was wrong then and, as far as I know, hasn't put forth such claims recently.
    1,400 girls were raped in and around of one town of 70,000. And yet you think it's plausible that that town represented 1/7th of all street grooming victims by such gangs. Even though we have had confirmed gangs of such type in two dozen towns, and that's just the ones we know about.
This discussion has been closed.