The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
None of that is true. Not in Liverpool, not in Southport, in Hartlepool, in many of these towns and cities whites are nowhere near the minority. They might consider themselves marginalised but they are nowhere near "a minority in my own country" as they like to put it
I don’t think it’s coincidence that the riots have started now that the party of Braverman and Jenrick are no longer in power.
I think there's quite a lot wrong with your logic in this. There might be a factor with Labour being in power, and a perception that they're going to be relaxed about immigration. I don't think even if there is that its a big effect, nor based on any sensible thought by those involved. Labour being in power means he Tories aren't, but I can't see that a Tory government is respected in a degree that makes civil unrest less likely - often rather the reverse. Braverman and Jenrick have been mostly irrelevant to the Tory party, and I hope that Braverman in particular continues to be so.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
The ballot box of Brexit ended free movement from the EU/EEA, which was the only thing a referendum on EU membership could end.
Yes Johnson and Truss then increased immigration from the rest of the world to make up for it, which Sunak to his credit with Cleverly then introduced tighter visa requirements to cut. Yet non EU immigration was not on the ballot paper in 2016, indeed some ethnic minority Leave voters voted Leave precisely to increase visas for their families back home not EU families.
The irony is that EDL types would now probably prefer to have kept the white Christian Poles and not had anymore Muslims from Africa and South Asia
Only the "poor retired" who claim it can keep the winter fuel allowance.
Yeah means testing a relatively small benefit is a great way of wasting money on administration to claw back a relatively small sum whilst making life more dificult for the poorest. Means testing makes a lot more sense for larger benefits than something like the winter fuel payment, and many people at the margin will feel aggrieved.
Hard for some on here to understand that fact and also that not all pensioners are rich or living off the state and they are struggling as it is.
A majority of PB posters are rich pensioners, which skews the discussion somewhat.
Fairlie , Rich , very rich or rich pensioners and Tory through and through
Hardly, there are more rich LD, anti Brexit pensioners on this board now than Tories
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
Only the "poor retired" who claim it can keep the winter fuel allowance.
Yeah means testing a relatively small benefit is a great way of wasting money on administration to claw back a relatively small sum whilst making life more dificult for the poorest. Means testing makes a lot more sense for larger benefits than something like the winter fuel payment, and many people at the margin will feel aggrieved.
Hard for some on here to understand that fact and also that not all pensioners are rich or living off the state and they are struggling as it is.
A majority of PB posters are rich pensioners, which skews the discussion somewhat.
Fairlie , Rich , very rich or rich pensioners and Tory through and through
Hardly, there are more rich LD, anti Brexit pensioners on this board now than Tories
Though in his thinking on benefits for the unemployed etc, @malcolmg is to the Right on the Conservative Party…
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
What nonsense. The contempt for the thick racist white oiks is oozing out of the Guardian, et al
If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
What nonsense. The contempt for the thick racist white oiks is oozing out of the Guardian, et al
If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term
Don't you think thick racists should be treated with contempt? The assumption that such people are working class is yours.
Ed Miliband made a mistake during the 2011 riots by trying to talk a bit about underlying social issues. I don't think it ever works. All you can do in the moment is demand the police restore order.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
The ballot box of Brexit ended free movement from the EU/EEA, which was the only thing a referendum on EU membership could end.
Yes Johnson and Truss then increased immigration from the rest of the world to make up for it, which Sunak to his credit with Cleverly then introduced tighter visa requirements to cut. Yet non EU immigration was not on the ballot paper in 2016, indeed some ethnic minority Leave voters voted Leave precisely to increase visas for their families back home not EU families.
The irony is that EDL types would now probably prefer to have kept the white Christian Poles and not had anymore Muslims from Africa and South Asia
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
But this is bullshit. Brexit did genuinely cut FoM immigration. By a huge amount. But the government expanded immigration elsewhere. So national democracy can correct that (as it has if Starmer doesn't roll back the Sunak limits), and we will be in a good place on immigration policy.
Ed Miliband made a mistake during the 2011 riots by trying to talk a bit about underlying social issues. I don't think it ever works. All you can do in the moment is demand the police restore order.
I agree. Discussions about the whys and wherefores need to wait until after order has been restored. Which is why Starmer’s words about the far right seem unnecessary and ill-judged.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
You're being ridiculous. The Brexit referendum was a simple question - remain in, or leave the EU. The referendum didn't say 'and we'll get this that and the other' - it was just a simple choice. Of course that choice had implications, and, rather wildly, many 'leave' voters imagined one of those implications was that immigration would change in some way to just be the immigration we liked. However it was pretty obvious that messing up all your border treaties isn't a good way to do anything much about borders other than to make things more chaotic.
The Tories are though entirely to blame, and particularly Boris. He could have, and should have negotiated new agreements with the EU that enabled a degree of delivery on what he and others had said Brexit was all about (although as stated above it was just a simple question). What we got instead was several years of government paralysis over the issue of how the government could possibly explain, and most particularly, excuse itself.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
All the maths suggests that net migration will fall rapidly in the next year or two. It’s almost impossible for it not to.
- The post-Covid distortion of the student stats will work through and reverse - likewise the Ukraine and HK influxes - The rather draconian rule changes by the last government on marriage and family visas will have an impact
Of course what people focus most on is small boats and refugees, or they conflate these with legal migration. But the numbers coming down will have an effect on the narrative.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
I have no doubt that a lot of people want less immigration. But they also want better public services, lower taxes, a properly functioning NHS and so on. And they want all this against the backdrop of an ageing population. Do you think Johnson opened the door on hundreds of thousands of new immigrants from outside Europe because he wanted to rub his electorate's noises in diversity or because he could not see any other way to deliver on the promises he had made? If we want much lower immigration we have to accept the consequences. No politician anywhere is currently prepared to state what they are, including: much higher retirement ages, a much smaller public sector, private health insurance, a much smaller, more expensive hospitality sector etc.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
100% agree !!!
It’s also to send a clear message from REAL CONSERVATIVES about Labours dangerous woke extreme leftist agenda
The timing isn’t a coincidence
Daily mail said it best its labour’s “SUMMER OF DISCONTENT”
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
Typical comment in the Mail.
"People who came here illegally being put up in 3 and 4 star hotels, with free food, gas and electricity, while Brits are living in damp and mould infested properties where patch-work repairs by the landlord take months."
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
Brexit gave elected British Governments control over immigration. It did not dictate what they did with that control. That's a very simple concept to grasp, not to do so indicates either that you are stupid, or that you think we are. I am sure neither of those things are true, so why not save the argument for a more receptive audience?
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
None of that is true. Not in Liverpool, not in Southport, in Hartlepool, in many of these towns and cities whites are nowhere near the minority. They might consider themselves marginalised but they are nowhere near "a minority in my own country" as they like to put it
I don’t think it’s coincidence that the riots have started now that the party of Braverman and Jenrick are no longer in power.
I think there's quite a lot wrong with your logic in this. There might be a factor with Labour being in power, and a perception that they're going to be relaxed about immigration. I don't think even if there is that its a big effect, nor based on any sensible thought by those involved. Labour being in power means he Tories aren't, but I can't see that a Tory government is respected in a degree that makes civil unrest less likely - often rather the reverse. Braverman and Jenrick have been mostly irrelevant to the Tory party, and I hope that Braverman in particular continues to be so.
The only way this might be affected by partisan politics is the way Starmer is seen as weak on the boats. Rwanda. But I doubt even that is a factor
It’s a long slow build up of resentment finally exploding. Indeed it was predicted by rachel reeves herself who warned of anti-immigration riots back in 2016 “unless we get migration under control”
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
I know nothing about the Dublin stabbing, was it a racist and/or ideologically motivated attack?
It was a guy of Algerian background who stabbed kids. And they never released the motive, which seems suspcious. Meanwhile the Irish press went into detail about the far right details of the rioters. We need more consistency.
"they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
Seems a long time since certain PBers and columnists approaching their climacteric were getting hot and bothered by sexy Sir Keir. Istr ‘He has a lovely smile’ was one of their’s.
Seems a lifetime ago.
It was only @Heathener i believe. And she is quite “eccentric”
Another organ not unfamiliar to you was doing a bit of throbbing.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
I know nothing about the Dublin stabbing, was it a racist and/or ideologically motivated attack?
It was a guy of Algerian background who stabbed kids. And they never released the motive, which seems suspcious. Meanwhile the Irish press went into detail about the far right details of the rioters. We need more consistency.
"they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
He is yet to come to trial. We will presumably learn of his motive during the trial (unless he pleads guilty)
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
I know nothing about the Dublin stabbing, was it a racist and/or ideologically motivated attack?
It was a guy of Algerian background who stabbed kids. And they never released the motive, which seems suspcious. Meanwhile the Irish press went into detail about the far right details of the rioters. We need more consistency.
"they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
Ok, can you release where it says the police believe the motive is unknown after thorough investigation? Because I can't see it anywhere.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
violent BLM riots - fake news - in this country most of the arrests were Tommy Robinson fans counter protesting
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
I know nothing about the Dublin stabbing, was it a racist and/or ideologically motivated attack?
It was a guy of Algerian background who stabbed kids. And they never released the motive, which seems suspcious. Meanwhile the Irish press went into detail about the far right details of the rioters. We need more consistency.
"they never released the motive" from what I've read the motive remains unknown except the perp himself saying "because I'm sick".m is this not correct? I'm not sure you're thinking straight on this "astonishing lack of impartiality"
He is yet to come to trial. We will presumably learn of his motive during the trial (unless he pleads guilty)
And yet the believed motives of rioters and vandals as being "far right" and "anti-immigration" are happily released before trial, indeed immediately.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
Yes.
From what I can see, Starmer is 100% spot on with his approach.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
The people were ignored kind of is an excuse, isn't it?
The problem with the people is that they send a shedload of mixed messages. Including, currently, thinking the Leave vote in 2016 was a mistake.
LEAVE wasn't a mixed message at all.
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
They made a mistake in that case, didn't they? In fact most people do realise Brexit was a mistake.
Brexit gave elected British Governments control over immigration. It did not dictate what they did with that control. That's a very simple concept to grasp, not to do so indicates either that you are stupid, or that you think we are. I am sure neither of those things are true, so why not save the argument for a more receptive audience?
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
Typical comment in the Mail.
"People who came here illegally being put up in 3 and 4 star hotels, with free food, gas and electricity, while Brits are living in damp and mould infested properties where patch-work repairs by the landlord take months."
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
The Sunak reforms substanstially increased the qualifying criteria for universities sponsoring foreign students, increased the financial maintenance thresholds for students, and banned the vast majority of students from bringing family dependents.
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
None of that is true. Not in Liverpool, not in Southport, in Hartlepool, in many of these towns and cities whites are nowhere near the minority. They might consider themselves marginalised but they are nowhere near "a minority in my own country" as they like to put it
I don’t think it’s coincidence that the riots have started now that the party of Braverman and Jenrick are no longer in power.
I think there's quite a lot wrong with your logic in this. There might be a factor with Labour being in power, and a perception that they're going to be relaxed about immigration. I don't think even if there is that its a big effect, nor based on any sensible thought by those involved. Labour being in power means he Tories aren't, but I can't see that a Tory government is respected in a degree that makes civil unrest less likely - often rather the reverse. Braverman and Jenrick have been mostly irrelevant to the Tory party, and I hope that Braverman in particular continues to be so.
The only way this might be affected by partisan politics is the way Starmer is seen as weak on the boats. Rwanda. But I doubt even that is a factor
It’s a long slow build up of resentment finally exploding. Indeed it was predicted by rachel reeves herself who warned of anti-immigration riots back in 2016 “unless we get migration under control”
Not really that much of a political issue, as you say.
I think you're right about a long slow build up too. I'm not sure resentment is the right word though. The UK really has done very well in my view in embracing immigration, but its not a bump-free journey. It seems to me that in the UK areas which mix everyone up together have done this best. Generally that's been the path we've taken. In Europe often there is more ghetto like distributions, and that seems to have produced a greater degree of polarisation.
We, all of us in the UK, really are better than these disappointing thugs.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
You voted for him.
Because the choice was almost as bad as Biden v Trump
I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence
Vice President Kamala Harris will meet with top candidates to serve as her vice president on Sunday, closing out her search for a running mate with a test of whether she and her potential new partner click.
At least three leading candidates — Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, Gov. Tim Walz of Minnesota and Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania — are scheduled to meet with Ms. Harris on Sunday at her residence at the Naval Observatory, in Washington
NY Times
This is dragging on too long now. She is in danger of looking indecisive and losing the momentum she has gained.
Not really. It's a test of her ability to make decisions and her methodology - set a date for the ting, do the thing by that date - is sound. It's not really a time-critical decision and given the potential for an unforced error she'd be forgiven for the time,
The ideal VP should be pleasant, calm, reassuring, and not hold any strong opinions on anything. Shapiro has taken a strong position on the Gazan War which will act as a drag on the ticket, not for the direction of his stance but that it exists. Walz has both-ways'd it, Kelly hasn't really mentioned it?
If the VP took an Ed Davey approach and did bungee jumps and visits to old people aerobics, I'd say the best would be Walz. As the dullest of the three he should be the winner. But I'm not doing the pick...
Walz isnt dull - certainly not as a speaker; that's Kelly. I don't honestly think it's vastly important who she picks, as none are bad. If it were me, I'd actually go for Buttigieg, but I think that's a little unlikely.
Given how close it looks between Trump and Harris this is likely to be the most pivotal VP pick since JFK picked LBJ who ensured he won Texas in 1960 and the EC (which he otherwise would have lost if it was not for Mayor Daley finding enough dead bodies in Chicago for JFK to beat Nixon in Illinois). In 2000 too I am sure in retrospect Gore wishes he had picked Florida Senator Bill Nelson as his VP candidate as Florida would have won him the EC. Lieberman helped with the Jewish vote there but not enough overall to win
1960 result far more nuanced than "Daley stole Chicago":
Trying to give history lessons to the Vicar is less profitable than lecturing your cat on artificial intelligence.
ADDENDUM - For those interested, check out "Courthouse over White House: Chicago and the Presidential Election of 1960" by Edmund F Kallina Jr. which is based on . . . wait for it . . . actual research.
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
Because I don’t have an issue with Polish plumbers. Never did
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
You voted for him.
Because the choice was almost as bad as Biden v Trump
I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence
You voted for him knowing he'd taken the knee in 2020. You may be the only poster on PB who did vote for him.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
The Sunak reforms substanstially increased the qualifying criteria for universities sponsoring foreign students, increased the financial maintenance thresholds for students, and banned the vast majority of students from bringing family dependents.
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
What nonsense. The contempt for the thick racist white oiks is oozing out of the Guardian, et al
If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term
Don't you think thick racists should be treated with contempt? The assumption that such people are working class is yours.
The descriptions of shaven headed oiks with swastika tattoos, drinking cheaper lager and urinating in the street do not suggest sociology professors from Bloomsbury.
Watching fucking thick chavs and cops beat the shit out of each is great. It's the same sort of relaxed vibe you get from watching a good football match where you really don't care who wins or loses.
Future generations will never enjoy his sonorous voice-over at Jimmy Savile's state funeral.
Which is ridiculous, archives are supposed to be objective and reflect the facts of the time and the record as it was. Not be brushed up because someone whose voice is present on it is no longer of benefit for the organisation's PR purposes
For once, I agree with you HYUFD. There's something a bit Soviet Russia about airbrushing history like this. It's a national archive, so at the very least there should be public debate before destroying bits if it.
The word 'archive' can be used in different ways in modern corporate speak. In some cases the main role of the corporate archivist is to destroy all records and paperwork that aren't strictly necessary under law or for operational reasons, lest they be have to be searched under legal demands for any evidence.
In the case of the BBC, is it really destroying the files or simply restricting public access?
Yes, legally the records manager can destroy any records not required under the organisation's retention schedule, whether for legal or operational reasons as you say. However some records will be transferred to the archives for historical research purposes for the archivist to maintain and these records include the ones with Huw Edwards on broadcasts of state events the BBC are now tampering with
They are not destroying any records. They are not tampering with records. They've taken some things off iPlayer. Archivists can still go do their historical research.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
The only people pinning the blame for the rioting on the white working class are edgy metropolitan right wing commentators who assume that white working class people are racist, violent, intolerant and thick.
We do need to separate the people perpetrating vandalism and violence from those marching to register a protest. We seem very able to do this when BLM or the Gaza protestors have flashes of violence but less so here. It is the latter group we need to listen to. The former group deserve everything they get. I tend to agree with Dan Hannan that SKS's public utterances about the protests have just cast them all in the right wing 'deplorable' basket together, but I haven't heard everything he's said on the topic.
Starmer very specifically separated protest from violence:
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice. A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community. And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool… These people are showing our country exactly who they are. Mosques targeted because they are Mosques. Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill. A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph. And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets. Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
He took the knee after the violent BLM riots - and this during the Covid lockdown. Starmer is a lying hypocrite
You voted for him.
Because the choice was almost as bad as Biden v Trump
I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence
You voted for him knowing he'd taken the knee in 2020. You may be the only poster on PB who did vote for him.
Watching fucking thick chavs and cops beat the shit out of each is great. It's the same sort of relaxed vibe you get from watching a good football match where you really don't care who wins or loses.
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?
(I'd strongly prefer all of our politicians to never comment on US politics.)
If we’re doing daft maths, 12 million more people voted for remain in 2016 than for Reform in 2024.
The word that I hear from one or two acquaintances who were at school with Anderson imply that he is something of an Idiot, whom I suggest may be laid aside when he is no longer Useful.
What is the remaining half-life of a mid-range klutz who is into his third or fourth political regeneration?
(Not that I have much faith in my own judgement, you understand )
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
Danish-style policies do not stop Romanian scammers and Bulgarian beggars from entering the country.
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
With respect, you are talking shite.
Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.
The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
Not to mention the French policy of aggressiveness in the export market for Imams with foreign nationalities.
The Mail is chock full of posters supporting the rioters, as yesterday.
Very little moderation, and a consensus in favour of the violence of about 9-1. Something is rotten in Middle England.
The Mail comment section ain't Middle England. It hasn't been for some time.
Perhaps not, but alongside the lagered-up feel, there have also been quite a few "I'm a little old lady living in a country and, you know what, I support them !" -type posts.
The Mail, and even more, the Daily Express, have clearly had a role stoking all this for many years, but I grant you that many of their more recent pro-rioter posters would eem also probably to be more happy in the Sun comment section.
OR, a large minority of British people have had it with mass immigration and the boats. Is this really so shocking? We have just experienced 2.4 MILLION migrants in 3 years. Most of them non-western. You can see this on your streets. Everyone can see it
No one asked for it. No one wanted it. Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration. Take back control!
The vote didn’t work. The Tories betrayed the people. So democracy apparently doesn’t function which leaves…. famously… violence and riots. The voice of the unheard
This is not to excuse a single thug bricking a single window. Lock them all up. But riots generally don’t come from nowhere - very often there is a context
They also had Reform to vote for too on 4th July and 14% of voters did winning 5 MPs for Farage, the ballot box is always better than violence to express discontent
Is it? The ballot box of Brexit failed to secure our borders. I am sure that is partly responsible for the dismal turnout at GE 2024. British democracy is failing - visibly
And the Tories are to blame. 2.4 million migrants in three years. The greatest influx in our history by an enormous margin - what were they thinking? What did they honestly expect? And this after they won a Brexit with a promise to take back control of the borders?
It was insanely irresponsible
This is a simplified account. Brexit did fundamentally achieve an end to unskilled immigration into the UK. Unfortunately it was accompanied by a loosening of "high skilled" requirements, to the extent it let in a lot of low-to-mid skilled people. Then there were vast numbers of Hong Kongers (likely to be highly skilled) and Ukrainians (likely to be similar to Poles in their economic performance).
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
Nothing high skilled about the family of a 'student' enrolled on a Micky Mouse MA.
The Sunak reforms substanstially increased the qualifying criteria for universities sponsoring foreign students, increased the financial maintenance thresholds for students, and banned the vast majority of students from bringing family dependents.
Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.
But it's not one horse. There are still millions of horses in the stable trying to get through the door. If you cared about actually reducing the problem rather than just bitching, that would matter to you.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?
🎶 You'll be back, soon, you'll see. You'll remember you belong to me. 🎶
Would be surprised and very disappointed if Cleverly backed Trump. Will cost him one vote if he does and makes it to the final two. Could be a spoilt ballot then.
As a Tory-leaning voter, I will never vote Tory if the leader backs Trump. It shows they fundamentally don't understand conservatism. And are generally a scummy person.
Perhaps a true Tory backs Trump so that the rebellious colonies see the error of their ways though?
(I'd strongly prefer all of our politicians to never comment on US politics.)
A true North American Tory would have moved to what became Canada after the US War of Independence and retained the King as their head of state!
Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows
Police clearly outnumbered
What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to
Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The police statemqent that 'nobody was stabbed in Stoke' yesterday ignores the eyewitness accounts of what actually happened, that a bunch of white youths were throwing bricks when a bunch of 'Muslim' youths came down the street and squared up to them, with at least one white youth being hit with a blunt object, possibly a hammer. 'Nobody was stabbed in Stoke' sounds disingenuous in that context.
There are other videos with Muslim men walking around with swords and baseball bats. There is video of a police officer telling Muslims to 'leave their weapons in the mosque'. As I said yesterday, they may be coming to the defence of their community, but the mainstream media spin that yesterday was just 'far right agitators' doesn't quite add up. I know a few Jewish people who patrolled their community after Jewish businesses were smashed up after October 7th. As far as I'm aware, none of them came out tooled up.
While my own view is that far right types like Tommy Robinson have been allowed to stoke up hate on social media, the mainstream media is also deliberately suppressing the very sectarian flavour - hat tip to MisterBedforshire - of the recent violence. We now have groups of people in the UK who are diametrically opposed in their race/religion and hate the other side.
Pinning the blame squarely on the white working class, when what we are seeing is at least a decade or more of failing multiculturalism, declining living standards, increased competition for social services, etc, is not going to cool things down, particularly in the context of the unprecedented mass migration of the last two or three years.
People are watching videos that don't fit the mainstream media narrative, some of them self-explanatory, others clearly pandering to those with a far right (or far left) worldview, but amplified by the social media algorithm that rewards controversy and polarisation. As long as that situation continues, and as long as successive governments continue to ignore legitimate concerns about migration and ignore the forming of parallel communities where people don't integrate at all, I fear there is more trouble ahead.
No-one's blaming the white working class. We're blaming the bunch of racists who are rioting. People dragging a brown person from a taxi because he's brown, and then setting light to it, are not expressing legitimate concerns.
Vice President Kamala Harris will meet with top candidates to serve as her vice president on Sunday, closing out her search for a running mate with a test of whether she and her potential new partner click.
At least three leading candidates — Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona, Gov. Tim Walz of Minnesota and Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania — are scheduled to meet with Ms. Harris on Sunday at her residence at the Naval Observatory, in Washington
NY Times
This is dragging on too long now. She is in danger of looking indecisive and losing the momentum she has gained.
Not really. It's a test of her ability to make decisions and her methodology - set a date for the ting, do the thing by that date - is sound. It's not really a time-critical decision and given the potential for an unforced error she'd be forgiven for the time,
The ideal VP should be pleasant, calm, reassuring, and not hold any strong opinions on anything. Shapiro has taken a strong position on the Gazan War which will act as a drag on the ticket, not for the direction of his stance but that it exists. Walz has both-ways'd it, Kelly hasn't really mentioned it?
If the VP took an Ed Davey approach and did bungee jumps and visits to old people aerobics, I'd say the best would be Walz. As the dullest of the three he should be the winner. But I'm not doing the pick...
Walz isnt dull - certainly not as a speaker; that's Kelly. I don't honestly think it's vastly important who she picks, as none are bad. If it were me, I'd actually go for Buttigieg, but I think that's a little unlikely.
Given how close it looks between Trump and Harris this is likely to be the most pivotal VP pick since JFK picked LBJ who ensured he won Texas in 1960 and the EC (which he otherwise would have lost if it was not for Mayor Daley finding enough dead bodies in Chicago for JFK to beat Nixon in Illinois). In 2000 too I am sure in retrospect Gore wishes he had picked Florida Senator Bill Nelson as his VP candidate as Florida would have won him the EC. Lieberman helped with the Jewish vote there but not enough overall to win
1960 result far more nuanced than "Daley stole Chicago":
Trying to give history lessons to the Vicar is less profitable than lecturing your cat on artificial intelligence.
ADDENDUM - For those interested, check out "Courthouse over White House: Chicago and the Presidential Election of 1960" by Edmund F Kallina Jr. which is based on . . . wait for it . . . actual research.
Nothing in that article refutes the fact that it was Mayor Daley's dodgy vote finding that won Illinois for JFK and Nixon likely would have otherwise won the popular vote as a result.
Though as I said JFK's pick of LBJ for VP won him Texas and the EC still anyway
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
Either you are monumentally ignorant or the worst type of person who is willing to let more young girls get raped to help their ideology. 1400 girls got raped in Rotherham alone according to the official report. And we know of at least two dozen towns where similar situations went on. They just wouldn't release estimated victim numbers anywhere else, things got pushed into a nationa report, which then got delayed multiple times, and then had the focus on street grooming removed.
Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows
Police clearly outnumbered
What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to
Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
Yes. Of all the places to put male asylum seekers, surely the last would be Rotherham
To me that hotel looks empty. I hope I’m right because otherwise people could easily die
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
Ending FoM reduced immigration. There are clear numbers showing how many came under FoM and how zero came under FoM afterwards. Only the thickest of Remainiacs try to do logical backflips to deny this.
Indeed in the Brexit vote the people - in the biggest vote ever - said Stop. Reduce immigration.
Are you really saying the Brexit vote was won by anti-immigrants?
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
No, you tedious fuck, I said that I MYSELF voted on the grounds of democracy and sovereignty. I wholly accept millions of Brits voted Leave on the grounds of restricting immigration - as is their right
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Surprised that the Leave vote of somebody so passionately opposed to immigration wasn't influenced by a desire to restrict immigration.
As we established on the previous thread, Danish-style policies are not incompatible with EU membership.
I wasn't on the previous thread, William, so nothing can have been established.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
With respect, you are talking shite.
Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.
The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.
Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.
Freedom of movement provided flexibility for the labour market, with people coming and going to fill vacancies. Without that, we have seen more long-term immigration.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:
I think giving British governments more control is a legitimate reason to vote Leave and not stupid. Voting Leave to reduce immigration, which is what we we are talking about here, might be a legitimate reason to vote Leave. It was a mistake in that case because the opposite happened. I can to go into the reasons why, and some of them are directly related to Brexit. What people assumed would happen didn't happen. You make mistakes when you don't check your assumptions. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of making mistakes. Intelligent or not, I make them all the time.
Brexit is the ultimate British expression of Fuck Around and Find Out.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
With respect, you are talking shite.
Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.
The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.
Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.
Freedom of movement provided flexibility for the labour market, with people coming and going to fill vacancies. Without that, we have seen more long-term immigration.
No, that isn't what happened. We decided to let in Ukrainian and Hong Kong asylum seekers and we reduced the restrictions on skilled worker visas. But all immigration law is now under HMG control, relaxations can be reversed and new controls have been put in place. Which is what Sunak has now done.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:
When the scale of the grooming scandal became clear - at least tens of thousands of white girls raped around the country - I was amazed no one rioted then. The British are an exceptionally peaceable people - or exceptionally stolid and apathetic
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
Either you are monumentally ignorant or the worst type of person who is willing to let more young girls get raped to help their ideology. 1400 girls got raped in Rotherham alone according to the official report. And we know of at least two dozen towns where similar situations went on. They just wouldn't release estimated victim numbers anywhere else, things got pushed into a nationa report, which then got delayed multiple times, and then had the focus on street grooming removed.
What happened in Rotherham was horrendous and we absolutely should continue learning lessons from those events. The government produced a report on the national situation, available at https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fd87e348fa8f54d5733f532/Group-based_CSE_Paper.pdf The report clearly lays out its evidence base and seems reliable. Apparently, you reject that report because it doesn't say what you and your prejudices want, so you invent unproven conspiracy theories about information being withheld. You are parroting what Tommy Robinson and his goons say.
Tommeh is claiming 10,000 protestors at Rotherham. If so that’s an awful lot - but who knows
Police clearly outnumbered
What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to
Jeez, I wonder what possibly could have caused mass latent anger in Rotherham. Did anything major happen over the last decade or so where the authorities failed horrifically and the media swiftly moved on?
I see you're in the Jews were responsible for Kristallnacht phase.
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
Does your definition of "disinformation" include things that are factually true?
The far right aren’t stopping - and neither are we. Yesterday showed when we come out in big numbers we can beat them back. And we need to continue that today:
Do the dick heads on the left need the dick heads on the right to feel relevant or what? A pox on both of them.
If this continues it is only going to become worse with extremes of right and left taking each other on on the streets and cities of our country
I believe the media are not helping and as an example Sky broadcast live from Southport every day last week and frankly, IMHO, the journalists would have been better returning to their studios and turning down the dial
Looking at the make up of the demonstrators what is worrying is just how many young people are at the forefront and, despite the widespread criticism which is justified, it needs to be asked why are these people so angry and, yes the police can arrest and imprison some of them but it looks like the genie is out of the bottle and serious questions how to address these issues need to be considered and not for mps to stand aloof in Westminster
Whats the longest we ever go without some summer riots? Seems to happen every 5-10 years.
Wikipedia implies it’s a quasi-decadal event, like the sunspot cycle.
Though I expect that page may be a bit selective. And that’s England. Add Northern Ireland and it’s somewhat more regular.
There’s definitely a tendency for people to think everything is much more dramatic and unprecedented than in the past. We see it with geopolitics and economics. When in fact every few years at least there’s something that makes everyone fear the end of the world.
2021 summer riots delayed by covid, I guess?
Probably just government planning going to pot as usual. Everything is delayed these days, ask the Scottish islands about ferries (and stand well back).
These riots are quite different from what we've seen in the recent past in England, as they are mainly not carried out by an ethnic minority who see themselves marginalised.
Therefore I expect they will have a much larger political impact i.e. the violence will impact policy whether we like it or not.
I think the evidence is that they are exactly the same in that they are being carried out by an ethnic minority (at least locally) who consider themselves marginalised and ignored by the establishment.
They look very like the pissed up, pilled up blokes who spend most Saturday afternoons from September to May looking for fights in and around football grounds.
Yes, because the BBC and other media outlets are very happy to show the angry white blokes, but don't want to show images of the Muslims with machetes for fear of "stoking tensions".
But that doesn’t work any more because everyone can see the Muslims with machetes on TwiX. Some of the videos have had several millions of views - possibly more impact than if they’d gone out on the TV
The lack of impartiality is astonishing. It was the same with the triple stabbing in Dublin when it happened. The media makes very clear when it is "far right" violence (knowing everyone correctly reads that as angry white guys) but skims over the background of the other side, or who committed the initial attack.
We are also paying the price for no major action ever happening over the tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs. There was a brief moment of openness when the sheer scale of government failure became apparent, but it was quickly moved on from by the media. If the public don't trust the authorities to be fair, they sadly take action into their own hands.
There haven't been "tens of thousands of white children that got raped by a certain background of street grooming gangs". That's a Tommy Robinson talking point and the sort of disinformation that has stoked these riots. The problem is people like you.
The Labour MP for Rotherham reckoned it could have been a million:
She was wrong then and, as far as I know, hasn't put forth such claims recently.
1,400 girls were raped in and around of one town of 70,000. And yet you think it's plausible that that town represented 1/7th of all street grooming victims by such gangs. Even though we have had confirmed gangs of such type in two dozen towns, and that's just the ones we know about.
Comments
Well this is very bad from Jenrick.
I hope he isn't saying what he thinks he should to win
Yes Johnson and Truss then increased immigration from the rest of the world to make up for it, which Sunak to his credit with Cleverly then introduced tighter visa requirements to cut. Yet non EU immigration was not on the ballot paper in 2016, indeed some ethnic minority Leave voters voted Leave precisely to increase visas for their families back home not EU families.
The irony is that EDL types would now probably prefer to have kept the white Christian Poles and not had anymore Muslims from Africa and South Asia
It was loud and clear people wanted less immigration. Remember that word cloud that had Immigration has the number one issue for leave voters?
If Starmer and Cooper don’t get a very firm grip on migration and the boats this is going to continue and possibly worsen. And it could easily finish them in one term
So we have improved the quality of immigration (but not sufficiently) while failing on quantity. Ironically, Sunak's changes are very meaningful and will both cut numbers and make British immigration the most high skilled in the world. But it remains to be seen if Starmer will roll them back.
In May just 39% of 2019 Conservative voters wanted Biden to win re election, with 31% backing Trump the rest neither.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49488-biden-vs-trump-2024-how-much-of-a-difference-do-britons-think-it-makes-who-wins
The Tories are though entirely to blame, and particularly Boris. He could have, and should have negotiated new agreements with the EU that enabled a degree of delivery on what he and others had said Brexit was all about (although as stated above it was just a simple question). What we got instead was several years of government paralysis over the issue of how the government could possibly explain, and most particularly, excuse itself.
- The post-Covid distortion of the student stats will work through and reverse
- likewise the Ukraine and HK influxes
- The rather draconian rule changes by the last government on marriage and family visas will have an impact
Of course what people focus most on is small boats and refugees, or they conflate these with legal migration. But the numbers coming down will have an effect on the narrative.
Every time we pointed that out over the last 8 years you lot were whining some bollocks about Sovereignty.
The closet racists and swivel-eyed loons are out and about now...
It’s also to send a clear message from REAL CONSERVATIVES about Labours dangerous woke extreme leftist agenda
The timing isn’t a coincidence
Daily mail said it best its labour’s “SUMMER OF DISCONTENT”
"People who came here illegally being put up in 3 and 4 star hotels, with free food, gas and electricity, while Brits are living in damp and mould infested properties where patch-work repairs by the landlord take months."
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13707233/Balaclava-clad-activists-swilling-beer-cans-begin-protest-outside-migrant-hotel-Rotherham-just-hours-thugs-tore-cities-apart-violent-riots-Keir-Starmer-slammed-going-holiday-Britain-burns.html#comments
It’s a long slow build up of resentment finally exploding. Indeed it was predicted by rachel reeves herself who warned of anti-immigration riots back in 2016 “unless we get migration under control”
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-starmers-are-sexy/
Let me turn now to the actions of a tiny, mindless minority in our society. Because in the aftermath of this attack the community of Southport had to suffer twice.
A gang of thugs, got on trains and busses went to a community that is not their own - a community grieving the most horrific tragedy - and then proceeded to throw bricks at police officers. Police officers who just 24 hours earlier had been having to deal with an attack on children in their community. Their community.
And make no mistake, whether it’s in Southport, London – or Hartlepool…
These people are showing our country exactly who they are.
Mosques targeted because they are Mosques.
Flares thrown at the statue of Winston Churchill.
A Nazi salute at the Cenotaph.
And so I’ve just held a meeting with senior police and law enforcement leaders, where we’ve resolved to show who we are. A country – that will not allow understandable fear to curdle into division and hate in our communities. And that will not permit, under any circumstances a breakdown in law and order on our streets.
Because let’s be very clear about this. It’s not protest. It’s not legitimate. It’s crime. Violent disorder. An assault on the rule of law and the execution of justice.
I genuinely struggle to see what the problem is with this.
You know this. Maybe grow up, finally?
Georgia - 🔵 Harris +3
Nevada - 🔵 Harris +2
Michigan 🟡 Tie
Pennsylvania - 🟡 Tie
Wisconsin - 🔴 Trump+1
North Carolina - 🔴 Trump +3
https://x.com/PpollingNumbers/status/1820086972829831669
You know this
If you want a "grown up" conversation, you might start there
If I see one more classist comment I might scream.
Who is it cleaning up the towns after they were destroyed? The working class.
Who is it whose jobs have been impacted by looting and rioting? The working class.
Who is egging riots on from their mansions? NOT the working class
From what I can see, Starmer is 100% spot on with his approach.
This is exactly what I voted for.
He’s restoring principle and competence.
Cometh the moment, cometh the man.
Of course, we must be wary - how many of these are made by bots in Novosibirsk?
I think you're right about a long slow build up too. I'm not sure resentment is the right word though. The UK really has done very well in my view in embracing immigration, but its not a bump-free journey. It seems to me that in the UK areas which mix everyone up together have done this best. Generally that's been the path we've taken. In Europe often there is more ghetto like distributions, and that seems to have produced a greater degree of polarisation.
We, all of us in the UK, really are better than these disappointing thugs.
I decided to give Starmer a chance. In my eyes, he’s probably already blown it with Reeves’ terrible decisions and his bullshit reactions to the recent violence
ADDENDUM - For those interested, check out "Courthouse over White House: Chicago and the Presidential Election of 1960" by Edmund F Kallina Jr. which is based on . . . wait for it . . . actual research.
Ending FoM increased immigration.
Anyone crying "that's not what we voted for" can fuck off. You voted for Brexit? This is your reward...
Just saw the brick to the bollocks lad being called "Eunuch Powell"
(I'd strongly prefer all of our politicians to never comment on US politics.)
What is the remaining half-life of a mid-range klutz who is into his third or fourth political regeneration?
(Not that I have much faith in my own judgement, you understand
Brexit significantly reduced immigration from the EU. That is all it could influence.
The Tory government then chose to enact policies that vastly increased immigration from the rest of the world.
Government policy. Not a result of Brexit.
Without Brexit they would not have enacted that policy. They didn't need to
Police clearly outnumbered
What happens if the starmer clampdown doesn’t work and thousands keep on rioting? He can’t lock up the entire white working class much as he’d like to
That looks like attempted murder
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/child-sex-abuse-gangs-could-5114029
Though as I said JFK's pick of LBJ for VP won him Texas and the EC still anyway
To me that hotel looks empty. I hope I’m right because otherwise people could easily die
Grim grim grim
Sadly, it seems that exception has ended
This is very serious and I fear nobody can predict the consequences of this unrest