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Fraser Nelson is right – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,859
edited July 1 in General
Fraser Nelson is right – politicalbetting.com

If Boris Johnson does want to come back to Tory politics, his holidaying while others tried to clean up his mess will be remembered by the activists he abandoned… https://t.co/Pifh9n9t4E

Read the full story here

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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,328
    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm
  • Options
    TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 655

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    It's on Amazon music and truly terrible. Sounds like normal synth pop until the vocals start and omg.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    Just like that time he didn't know what 'up the Ra' meant and didn't think to check.

    Is he really just a fiery speaker who's unfortunately also a bit dim?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,817
    edited July 1
    Ukraine reported record Russian artillery losses during the month of June.


    I do not think that the war is developing necessarily to Russia's advantage.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,182
    FPT

    My village in the Mâconnais is becoming increasingly like the fortress of Sedan as the advancing waves of Le Pen votes lap up closer and closer with each election.

    RN are still in third in St Vincent des Pres on 18%. Ensemble won with 45%, then the left with 35%.

    https://www.francetvinfo.fr/elections/resultats/saone-et-loire_71/saint-vincent-des-pres_71250

    But time Cluny narrowly had RN ahead, 34 to 30. Contented, arty, cosmopolitan Cluny. Now fallen, another Bakhmut or Mariupol on the long road to the Le Pen supremacy.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,470
    ydoethur said:

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    Just like that time he didn't know what 'up the Ra' meant and didn't think to check.

    Is he really just a fiery speaker who's unfortunately also a bit dim?
    I'm sure Farage wouldn't see it that way, but it's a kinder explanation than the alternatives.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797
    edited July 1
    Morning all!
    Into the home stretch we go. Die is cast now, getting too late in the day for events so we are do. wn to GOTV and the late ditherers/pencil hoverers. Talking of which i still dont know whether to vote for whomever will upset Clive Lewis the most or write in a candidate in a spoil ballot effort. And if the latter who i write in
  • Options
    FPT

    Pulpstar said:
    » show previous quotes
    You'd better get down the bookies asap my friend, 11-4 for a 'shoo in' is an astonishing price

    I might well do that
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 897
    edited July 1
    Heathener said:
    » show previous quotes
    I’ve watched you over the past fortnight hopping closer and closer to that rabbit hole. Getting close now.

    Keep going and you’ll be joining Laurence Fox and Sean Thomas down there.


    Whatsup Doc?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,656

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    The Tory strategy is apparently to try and 'persuade' Reform candidates to throw in the towel and back the local Tory candidate; I see that at least one has succumbed.
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,806
    On topic, I agree there is no serious route back for Johnson. But there is better money to be made at the moment laying Farage at 13-1 as next Tory leader. Even if he gets in on Thursday, the Tories aren't letting him in and Tory MPs wouldn't let him through to the membership even he was one of them, having contributed to the scale of the loss.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    Agreed and genuinely pained to see the direction her Party has travelled

    I also think this country would have been better off economically had they voted for her Brexit deal.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Heathener said:

    I’ve mentioned previously that I think the UK got the right-wing phase out of its system with Brexit in 2016, confirmed in 2019.

    We are ahead of the curve on this and are about to swing back to a large Centre-Left majority.

    Leading the way for the western world. Once other EU countries have had their justifiable say about centralised elitism and mass migration, they will follow.

    We’ve a great opportunity now and I expect Lab-LibDem-SNP-Green to seize it

    The Centre-Left will be in power in Britain for a long time.

    Maybe. Maybe it’s simpler than that: whoever was in power during a period of high inflation gets voted out.
    High inflation caused by putting the entire population under house arrest for a couple of years off and on and forcing them to wear useless face nappies in public, in response to a nasty cold bug that primarily impacts people over 80 and those with other comorbidities.
    I can't help notice that you've chosen not to include Putin's role.
    He didn't have a role. He didn't stop selling his oil and has, we (Europe) refused to buy it

    (well not directly, just laundered via places like India at a much higher price).
    Err, India and China are paying a much *lower* price for Putin’s oil than the international price, because they’re the only ones prepared to buy it.
    Then selling a goodly chunk of it on to Europe with big markups and the shipping costs of LPG via sea vs pipeline.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    So no new polls yesterday. Any likely today do we know? Or will they all hold on until tomorrow / Wednesday for their final polls?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,656

    Morning all!
    Into the home stretch we go. Die is cast now, getting too late in the day for events so we are do. wn to GOTV and the late ditherers/pencil hoverers. Talking of which i still dont know whether to vote for whomever will upset Clive Lewis the most or write in a candidate in a spoil ballot effort. And if the latter who i write in

    If you want the ERO to have to show it to all the party agents at the count before deciding what to do with it, as well as writing on it you need to do something ambiguous like drawing a penis in the box next to Lewis, or starting to mark an X against more than one candidate. If you just write on it, it will probably just be set aside.
  • Options
    FPT

    ydoethur said:
    » show previous quotes
    North Korea was supported by the Soviets, not China, at the time of the invasion. China joined later when MacArthur started threatening to invade them as well.

    The South Korean Dictatorship at the time was far nastier and more bloodthirsty than the north and the North Korean invasion was in response to the Souths openly stated aim to invade and conquer it with US aid
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797

    On topic, I agree there is no serious route back for Johnson. But there is better money to be made at the moment laying Farage at 13-1 as next Tory leader. Even if he gets in on Thursday, the Tories aren't letting him in and Tory MPs wouldn't let him through to the membership even he was one of them, having contributed to the scale of the loss.

    I agree, Farage will be as welcome as Ramsey MacDonald down at the Labour Club
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,328

    On topic, I agree there is no serious route back for Johnson. But there is better money to be made at the moment laying Farage at 13-1 as next Tory leader. Even if he gets in on Thursday, the Tories aren't letting him in and Tory MPs wouldn't let him through to the membership even he was one of them, having contributed to the scale of the loss.

    Yup, I've been advising laying Farage in this market for a while.

    https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/06/27/oh-for-foxs-sake/
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,203
    IanB2 said:

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    The Tory strategy is apparently to try and 'persuade' Reform candidates to throw in the towel and back the local Tory candidate; I see that at least one has succumbed.
    As many of us have thought and said, Farage’s team have done pretty much no vetting on their candidates at all.

    Having half a dozen candidates be pulled up for being racist dicks during the campaign is bad enough, but to start losing more of them to defection before the election even happens is hillarious.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797
    edited July 1
    Heathener said:

    So no new polls yesterday. Any likely today do we know? Or will they all hold on until tomorrow / Wednesday for their final polls?

    I know that Focaldata and YG have MRP updates this afternoon
    Edit - Focaldata from 2, YG at 5
    Redfield final call should be today i think.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 46,296
    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    edited July 1
    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,620

    ydoethur said:

    The US response to France leaving Nato in 1968 can be contrasted with The Soviet Union's response to Czechoslovakia leaving the Warsaw pact in the same year.

    In the end we all know it as North Korea that attacked the South and North Vietnam that attacked the South with Chinese and Soviet support respectively.

    North Korea was supported by the Soviets, not China, at the time of the invasion. China joined later when MacArthur started threatening to invade them as well.
    The South Korean Dictatorship at the time was far nastier and more bloodthirsty than the north and the North Korean invasion was in response to the Souths openly stated aim to invade and conquer it with US aid.
    Without wishing in any way to defend Syngman Rhee, if you think he was worse than Kim Il Sung you know precisely fuck all about Korea.

    Also, you seem to have overlooked the fact that the North had been trying to overthrow the government of the South for the previous three years through insurgencies and border incursions. That was the target of American offensive actions, not North Korea per se.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005

    Heathener said:

    So no new polls yesterday. Any likely today do we know? Or will they all hold on until tomorrow / Wednesday for their final polls?

    I know that Focaldata and YG have MRP updates this afternoon
    Edit - Focaldata from 2, YG at 5
    Redfield final call should be today i think.
    Thanks: great!
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797
    IanB2 said:

    Morning all!
    Into the home stretch we go. Die is cast now, getting too late in the day for events so we are do. wn to GOTV and the late ditherers/pencil hoverers. Talking of which i still dont know whether to vote for whomever will upset Clive Lewis the most or write in a candidate in a spoil ballot effort. And if the latter who i write in

    If you want the ERO to have to show it to all the party agents at the count before deciding what to do with it, as well as writing on it you need to do something ambiguous like drawing a penis in the box next to Lewis, or starting to mark an X against more than one candidate. If you just write on it, it will probably just be set aside.
    Tbh i will almost certainly vote as i am loathe to be a spoiler, im just gutted at the choice
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 897
    edited July 1
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    The Tory strategy is apparently to try and 'persuade' Reform candidates to throw in the towel and back the local Tory candidate; I see that at least one has succumbed.
    As many of us have thought and said, Farage’s team have done pretty much no vetting on their candidates at all.

    Having half a dozen candidates be pulled up for being racist dicks during the campaign is bad enough, but to start losing more of them to defection before the election even happens is hillarious.
    It happens with smaller parties. It is bloody difficult running a full slate of candidates without the experience and resources of the big three parties.

    Look how David Icke singlehandedly destroyed the greens for a generation.

    As to Tories getting the vapours when other parties use music with double meanings. Physician Heal Thyself.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24420505.tory-student-group-apologises-dancing-nazi-marching-song/
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,001
    edited July 1
    Heathener said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    Agreed and genuinely pained to see the direction her Party has travelled

    I also think this country would have been better off economically had they voted for her Brexit deal.
    It was a poor deal - but better than everything that followed.
    A bit like her premiership.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,252
    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    You must be new to France. This is just a standard Sunday afternoon.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    The ‘Days Left to Save Britain from Labour’ attack line is iirc exactly the same as John Major’s final days before the 1997 Blair landslide?

  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,001
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The US response to France leaving Nato in 1968 can be contrasted with The Soviet Union's response to Czechoslovakia leaving the Warsaw pact in the same year.

    In the end we all know it as North Korea that attacked the South and North Vietnam that attacked the South with Chinese and Soviet support respectively.

    North Korea was supported by the Soviets, not China, at the time of the invasion. China joined later when MacArthur started threatening to invade them as well.
    The South Korean Dictatorship at the time was far nastier and more bloodthirsty than the north and the North Korean invasion was in response to the Souths openly stated aim to invade and conquer it with US aid.
    Without wishing in any way to defend Syngman Rhee, if you think he was worse than Kim Il Sung you know precisely fuck all about Korea.

    Also, you seem to have overlooked the fact that the North had been trying to overthrow the government of the South for the previous three years through insurgencies and border incursions. That was the target of American offensive actions, not North Korea per se.
    MrBed is a clueless propagandist.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478

    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    The Tory strategy is apparently to try and 'persuade' Reform candidates to throw in the towel and back the local Tory candidate; I see that at least one has succumbed.
    As many of us have thought and said, Farage’s team have done pretty much no vetting on their candidates at all.

    Having half a dozen candidates be pulled up for being racist dicks during the campaign is bad enough, but to start losing more of them to defection before the election even happens is hillarious.
    It happens with smaller parties. It is bloody difficult running a full slate of candidates without the experience and resources of the big three parties.

    Look how David Icke singlehandedly destroyed the greens for a generation.

    As to Tories getting the vapours when other parties use music with double meanings. Physician Heal Thyself.

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/24420505.tory-student-group-apologises-dancing-nazi-marching-song/
    Yup pretty bad. Although isn't this Farage character the actual leader of Reform? (I know you pretend to be ignorant of obvious facts, but surely even you know this?) Get back to us when you find Sunak "accidentally" tweeting a song used by neo-Nazis.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797
    Quick throwback moment for you PBers. Old Man Woolie during our political chat yesterday (whilst confessing he binned his postal ballot) referred to the Greens as 'the Ecology Party'
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,001
    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was a bad Home Secretary, and not much better as PM.
    But better than her successors in both posts.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,919
    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    Surely the Windrush scandal was a long-standing situation that came prominently to light during May's PMship? And she did set up a scheme to try to address it?
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
  • Options
    MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 897
    edited July 1
    Pulpstar said:
    » show previous quotes
    You'd better get down the bookies asap my friend, 11-4 for a 'shoo in' is an astonishing price


    PS. Labour are 2-5 on favourites in mid beds. Stephenson is 2:1.

    West Dorset
    Libs 2-7
    Loder 5-2

    West Dorset has an incumbent constituency focused Tory MP.

    Mid Beds has no Tory incumbent and a poisoned well left by Nadine.

    Odds Source - Ladbrokes
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,001
    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    I can see the appeal to you of a party with a leader called Jardin Bordello...
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,700
    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    Yes - a confused legacy. There have been seven Tory PMs in my lifetime, and she ranks comfortably second in my personal ranking, after Major. As you say though, this is not a high bar.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,001
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    About 2016.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    Since it was compared to childbirth
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,217
    Holidaying while others failed to clear up his mess never held Johnson back before.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,524
    Heathener said:

    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?

    Reform seemed irrelevant until very recently. A year ago, they were polling 4-5%.
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,700
    Heathener said:

    The ‘Days Left to Save Britain from Labour’ attack line is iirc exactly the same as John Major’s final days before the 1997 Blair landslide?

    I really wish politicians would stop with the idiotic ‘xx days/hours to save xx’ phrase.

    How many things have we now failed to save/be saved from?
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,817

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    Surely the Windrush scandal was a long-standing situation that came prominently to light during May's PMship? And she did set up a scheme to try to address it?
    It was caused in large part by the hostile environment policies she enacted. Previously, people who had immigrated here, but whose paperwork wasn't in order, didn't have a problem getting along just fine. They hadn't needed the paperwork at the time they had arrived, so not having the paperwork isn't itself a scandal.

    People are still suffering as a result. She didn't fix the problem.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    Since it was compared to childbirth
    Soooo, Brexit= childbirth. Therefore May's 'red line' speech = the thing that needlessly makes childbirth hideously painful and costly. Right, got it.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,308
    ydoethur said:

    A unfortunate coincidence I am sure, like all those racist candidates in Reform.

    Farage says posting far-right song was ‘mistake’

    The Reform UK leader has been accused of using a song banned across Europe for its far-right connotations


    Nigel Farage has been accused of using a song hijacked by the far right on a video attacking the Tories’ record on immigration.

    A video, which has now been removed, posted on Farage’s Twitter/X account on June 5 featured a slowed-down version of L’Amour Toujours, a 1999 Italian disco hit, as background to an interview with Richard Holden, the Conservative chairman, and then a speech by the Reform UK leader.

    However, the song has been banned across Europe for its far-right connotations after multiple viral videos showed Germans signing “Germany for the Germans, foreigners out” over the song’s refrain.


    Farage said yesterday he “didn’t know” the connotations of the song and “once we realised what we’d done, we took it down”. The Reform leader told The Times the person who had posted the video had admitted he had made a “mistake”. Farage said: “Occasionally — occasionally — we make mistakes. When we realised what it was, it was gone.”


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/farage-says-posting-far-right-song-was-mistake-z8fwbmjlm

    Just like that time he didn't know what 'up the Ra' meant and didn't think to check.

    Is he really just a fiery speaker who's unfortunately also a bit dim?
    The point being that even if he is as ignorant as he seems, the people in his media team that made it knew exactly what they were doing.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,217

    IanB2 said:

    Morning all!
    Into the home stretch we go. Die is cast now, getting too late in the day for events so we are do. wn to GOTV and the late ditherers/pencil hoverers. Talking of which i still dont know whether to vote for whomever will upset Clive Lewis the most or write in a candidate in a spoil ballot effort. And if the latter who i write in

    If you want the ERO to have to show it to all the party agents at the count before deciding what to do with it, as well as writing on it you need to do something ambiguous like drawing a penis in the box next to Lewis, or starting to mark an X against more than one candidate. If you just write on it, it will probably just be set aside.
    Tbh i will almost certainly vote as i am loathe to be a spoiler, im just gutted at the choice
    The choice is a lot better than the previous general election.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,615
    edited July 1

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    Surely the Windrush scandal was a long-standing situation that came prominently to light during May's PMship? And she did set up a scheme to try to address it?
    No she was the HS who caused the situation in the first place. The much like Major with the ERM, she reaped the whirlwind she had sown. She then hung Amber Rudd out to dry over it. She was and is an awful woman.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    I can see the appeal to you of a party with a leader called Jardin Bordello...
    Are there any reliable news sources reporting on large riots across France? Visegrad24 is well dodgy.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,615
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    In the minds of the Remoaners, since the day it was conceived.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,470

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    The "Civilised" Liberal Leavers had a plan. On paper, it was quite a good one.

    Use (and that's the only word for it) Farage followers to get the referendum over the line. Not actually endorsing their worldview, good heavens no, but let them vote Leave because their votes counted the same as anyone else's.

    Then dump the ghastly oiks the nanosecond the referendum was done and ally with the former Remain voters to get a Nice Brexit. Or better still, get that nice Mr Cameron to do it, so that their hands were clean of the betrayal.

    On paper, it's a good plan, but it fails the "you have to dance with the one that bring ya" test. Once Leave won on the basis of the official and unofficial campaigns that happened, we were always going to end up here.

    In some ways, Brexit is very much like having a baby. You can't be a little bit pregnant.


  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    Since it was compared to childbirth
    Soooo, Brexit= childbirth. Therefore May's 'red line' speech = the thing that needlessly makes childbirth hideously painful and costly. Right, got it.
    Brexit is like having a baby. It’s a brilliant analogy and kudos to whoever coined it

    So yes it was always going to be traumatic. But TMay’s speech was the equivalent of saying - for no reason - “right I’m having this baby at home, in the dark, no anaesthetic, and make sure the midwife is drunk”
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Unusually, I more or less agree with a comment by Leon. Though I suspect someone with a better memory than me might say that Leon has changed his tune a bit over the last 8 years.
  • Options
    wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 9,797
    FF43 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Morning all!
    Into the home stretch we go. Die is cast now, getting too late in the day for events so we are do. wn to GOTV and the late ditherers/pencil hoverers. Talking of which i still dont know whether to vote for whomever will upset Clive Lewis the most or write in a candidate in a spoil ballot effort. And if the latter who i write in

    If you want the ERO to have to show it to all the party agents at the count before deciding what to do with it, as well as writing on it you need to do something ambiguous like drawing a penis in the box next to Lewis, or starting to mark an X against more than one candidate. If you just write on it, it will probably just be set aside.
    Tbh i will almost certainly vote as i am loathe to be a spoiler, im just gutted at the choice
    The choice is a lot better than the previous general election.
    Nah, I feel like I'm being taken out for dinner only to find out its one of those arrogant chef places where you have to force down whatever he can be arsed to prepare on the set menu that day and clap like seals for his horse shit amuse bouche twattery.
    I'll just get a bag of chips on the way home
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,308
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    I agree. Cameron could have been the best Tory PM of our time. And the coalition gave him control over his Party. The majority was too big a challenge and hubris took over whereupon he completely tanked it.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076
    I don't think Boris is coming back as more than a grandee, but people are good at forgetting what they want to forget.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?

    Reform seemed irrelevant until very recently. A year ago, they were polling 4-5%.
    True.

    Pandering to the Right is such a fatal error in this country (as is pandering to the Left).

    We all know why they’ve done it: the barely concealed fissure running through the Party which David Cameron re-opened with his poorly prepared referendum; Boris Johnson’s unscrupulous dog whistling; and Sunak’s weak deal with the devil.

    However, in terms of actually winning a British General Election there’s limited oxygen out on the Right. Furthermore, by lurching out there and disenfranchising centrist tories, they’ve allowed Keir Starmer to hold the middle ground.

    I don’t know where the Conservatives go from here, or even IF they can. It was easier for Neil Kinnock to purge Militant than it’s going to be for sensible tories to take back control (!) of their Party.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Unusually, I more or less agree with a comment by Leon. Though I suspect someone with a better memory than me might say that Leon has changed his tune a bit over the last 8 years.
    Who hasnt?
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    I can see the appeal to you of a party with a leader called Jardin Bordello...
    Are there any reliable news sources reporting on large riots across France? Visegrad24 is well dodgy.
    Evening Standard:


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/france-election-protests-paris-marine-le-pen-national-rally-macron-b1167813.html
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I think it would funny if Starmer totally mixes up who is in his Cabinet, saying he's not obliged to put shadow Cabinet in.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,470

    Heathener said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    Agreed and genuinely pained to see the direction her Party has travelled

    I also think this country would have been better off economically had they voted for her Brexit deal.
    Whilst I agree about her Brexit version, she really was an awful PM and Home Secretary. She was a Twin set and Pearls version of Patel or Braverman, authoritarian in the extreme and responsible for a huge amount of misery for a lot of innocent people. I was delighted when she fell, even if far less delighted with the choice of successor.
    In any traditional Conservative government, May occupies a position similar to Sunak. On the bus, but to the right of that bus.

    At the moment, both of them are somewhere on the left, probably hanging on to the outside for grim life. I'm sure some people see that change as a good thing, but I struggle to ee it myself.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    Since it was compared to childbirth
    Soooo, Brexit= childbirth. Therefore May's 'red line' speech = the thing that needlessly makes childbirth hideously painful and costly. Right, got it.
    Brexit is like having a baby. It’s a brilliant analogy and kudos to whoever coined it

    So yes it was always going to be traumatic. But TMay’s speech was the equivalent of saying - for no reason - “right I’m having this baby at home, in the dark, no anaesthetic, and make sure the midwife is drunk”
    I think the reason was, as a Remainer, she had to prove her Brexiter credentials. We would have been better off if Johnson hadn't chickened out, and had managed to replace Cameron as PM. He would have been able to sell the softest of Brexits.
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    edited July 1
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Very, very, rarely do I agree with you but you are spot on about this.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,615

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    The "Civilised" Liberal Leavers had a plan. On paper, it was quite a good one.

    Use (and that's the only word for it) Farage followers to get the referendum over the line. Not actually endorsing their worldview, good heavens no, but let them vote Leave because their votes counted the same as anyone else's.

    Then dump the ghastly oiks the nanosecond the referendum was done and ally with the former Remain voters to get a Nice Brexit. Or better still, get that nice Mr Cameron to do it, so that their hands were clean of the betrayal.

    On paper, it's a good plan, but it fails the "you have to dance with the one that bring ya" test. Once Leave won on the basis of the official and unofficial campaigns that happened, we were always going to end up here.

    In some ways, Brexit is very much like having a baby. You can't be a little bit pregnant.


    Except the post referendum atmosphere and direction was largely dictated by a Remain supporting PM who had never understood Brexit to be about anything other than immigration and who, in her studied ignorance, disregarded anything other than a 'hard' Brexit. Obviously the ERG nutters didn't help but a more competent and intelligent PM would have isolated and nullified them instead of actually helping them to gain more influence and power.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Since when has Brexit been hideously painful and costly?
    Since it was compared to childbirth
    Soooo, Brexit= childbirth. Therefore May's 'red line' speech = the thing that needlessly makes childbirth hideously painful and costly. Right, got it.
    Brexit is like having a baby. It’s a brilliant analogy and kudos to whoever coined it

    So yes it was always going to be traumatic. But TMay’s speech was the equivalent of saying - for no reason - “right I’m having this baby at home, in the dark, no anaesthetic, and make sure the midwife is drunk”
    I think the reason was, as a Remainer, she had to prove her Brexiter credentials. We would have been better off if Johnson hadn't chickened out, and had managed to replace Cameron as PM. He would have been able to sell the softest of Brexits.
    Yes I concur. So we got a really Hard Brexit because - as @Richard_Tyndall says - TMay never really understood it
  • Options
    GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,700

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    Surely the Windrush scandal was a long-standing situation that came prominently to light during May's PMship? And she did set up a scheme to try to address it?
    It was caused in large part by the hostile environment policies she enacted. Previously, people who had immigrated here, but whose paperwork wasn't in order, didn't have a problem getting along just fine. They hadn't needed the paperwork at the time they had arrived, so not having the paperwork isn't itself a scandal.

    People are still suffering as a result. She didn't fix the problem.
    Yes. The hostile environment was so insidious precisely because it was an approach and attitude - sensible heads would have prevailed on the self-evident cruelty of Windrush otherwise.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,123
    kle4 said:

    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Unusually, I more or less agree with a comment by Leon. Though I suspect someone with a better memory than me might say that Leon has changed his tune a bit over the last 8 years.
    Who hasnt?
    Me.

    Because I was right all along.

    :D
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,615

    Heathener said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    Agreed and genuinely pained to see the direction her Party has travelled

    I also think this country would have been better off economically had they voted for her Brexit deal.
    Whilst I agree about her Brexit version, she really was an awful PM and Home Secretary. She was a Twin set and Pearls version of Patel or Braverman, authoritarian in the extreme and responsible for a huge amount of misery for a lot of innocent people. I was delighted when she fell, even if far less delighted with the choice of successor.
    In any traditional Conservative government, May occupies a position similar to Sunak. On the bus, but to the right of that bus.

    At the moment, both of them are somewhere on the left, probably hanging on to the outside for grim life. I'm sure some people see that change as a good thing, but I struggle to ee it myself.
    No one forced May to send out vans telling immigrants to go home. No one forced her to develop a culture at the Home Office that led to the Windrush scandal. This was all in the Cameron/Coalition years - held up by many to be a period of centralism at least as far as social issues are concerned - and was entirely self inflicted.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    The "Civilised" Liberal Leavers had a plan. On paper, it was quite a good one.

    Use (and that's the only word for it) Farage followers to get the referendum over the line. Not actually endorsing their worldview, good heavens no, but let them vote Leave because their votes counted the same as anyone else's.

    Then dump the ghastly oiks the nanosecond the referendum was done and ally with the former Remain voters to get a Nice Brexit. Or better still, get that nice Mr Cameron to do it, so that their hands were clean of the betrayal.

    On paper, it's a good plan, but it fails the "you have to dance with the one that bring ya" test. Once Leave won on the basis of the official and unofficial campaigns that happened, we were always going to end up here.

    In some ways, Brexit is very much like having a baby. You can't be a little bit pregnant.


    Except the post referendum atmosphere and direction was largely dictated by a Remain supporting PM who had never understood Brexit to be about anything other than immigration and who, in her studied ignorance, disregarded anything other than a 'hard' Brexit. Obviously the ERG nutters didn't help but a more competent and intelligent PM would have isolated and nullified them instead of actually helping them to gain more influence and power.
    No one came out of that mess well. Everyone played hardball and risked total defeat in pursuit of victory, white years in the Cabinet had not even agreed their position.

    It was that last point which pushed me from Brexit support.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,553
    edited July 1

    NY Times reporting that Biden's family have rallied around him at Camp David and persuaded him to stay in the race.

    Ship of fools.

    Magnificent news for my betting though.

    I have been thinking about this a lot recently. I think it's probably now ~ 85% we have a Biden vs Trump contest, up from ~ 75% in the immediate aftermath of the debate. & Should Biden drop out, I can't see past Harris becoming the Dem candidate based on a good few things I am thinking of writing an article on. Then of course in November whoever is the nominee has to beat Trump.

    The prices on exchanges and betting markets for Gavin Newsom and Michelle Obama are horrendously, unfathomably short. They ought to be around the Buttigieg mark (& possibly Whitmer) - who are good long odds buys in the hundreds to one.
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,005
    So if @Leon ’s correct, the impending Conservative shellacking really goes back to David Cameron.

    Has anyone told @TSE ?!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076
    Heathener said:

    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?

    Reform seemed irrelevant until very recently. A year ago, they were polling 4-5%.
    True.

    Pandering to the Right is such a fatal error in this country (as is pandering to the Left).

    We all know why they’ve done it: the barely concealed fissure running through the Party which David Cameron re-opened with his poorly prepared referendum; Boris Johnson’s unscrupulous dog whistling; and Sunak’s weak deal with the devil.

    However, in terms of actually winning a British General Election there’s limited oxygen out on the Right. Furthermore, by lurching out there and disenfranchising centrist tories, they’ve allowed Keir Starmer to hold the middle ground.

    I don’t know where the Conservatives go from here, or even IF they can. It was easier for Neil Kinnock to purge Militant than it’s going to be for sensible tories to take back control (!) of their Party.
    Where they go from here is wherever Reform want them to, if the Tories get less than 100 seats.

    If they get over it they might resist somewhat.
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    TimSTimS Posts: 11,182
    TimS said:

    FPT

    My village in the Mâconnais is becoming increasingly like the fortress of Sedan as the advancing waves of Le Pen votes lap up closer and closer with each election.

    RN are still in third in St Vincent des Pres on 18%. Ensemble won with 45%, then the left with 35%.

    https://www.francetvinfo.fr/elections/resultats/saone-et-loire_71/saint-vincent-des-pres_71250

    But time Cluny narrowly had RN ahead, 34 to 30. Contented, arty, cosmopolitan Cluny. Now fallen, another Bakhmut or Mariupol on the long road to the Le Pen supremacy.

    Update: I was looking at the wrong ( part counted) results. RN came second in Cluny to the left, 37 to 28 (Ens in 3rd on 26). Or in UK terms LLG 63, RefCon 34 (LR and another right wing party got 6 between them).
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    CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 429
    edited July 1
    Sean_F said:

    Heathener said:

    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?

    Reform seemed irrelevant until very recently. A year ago, they were polling 4-5%.
    Reform is just a new name for what was already an electoral force within the conservative goverment and the key reason it couldn't govern or legislate. Reform didn't spring into existance out of nothing. In fact I see it as a retreat for the populist movement. It failed in its attemt to take over the conservative party from within after 2019. Now it is shuffling to another party, where it will slowly shrink into insignificance, due to the extreme high age of its supporters. Populism cannot govern... it can get elected on the back of high emotion and divisive politics, but it falters as soon as it is in office as the last many years have shown in the UK.
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    kamskikamski Posts: 4,478
    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    I can see the appeal to you of a party with a leader called Jardin Bordello...
    Are there any reliable news sources reporting on large riots across France? Visegrad24 is well dodgy.
    Evening Standard:


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/france-election-protests-paris-marine-le-pen-national-rally-macron-b1167813.html
    This is ALL that the article says:

    "Protesters clashed with police in central Paris as demonstrations were held against Marine Le Pen’s far-right National Rally (RN), which jumped into an early lead in France’s snap election.

    Thousands of people gathered in the Place de la Republique as first-round legislative elections on Sunday plunged the country into political uncertainty.

    Video showed fireworks being set off in the direction of police who responded by firing tear gas.

    Barricades designed to keep crowds under control were torched as protesters vented their anger."

    Plus a short clip of 2 fireworks going nowhere near the police (I've had fireworks being fired much closer to me on NYE on the streets in Germany), and police firing a cannister of tear gas.

    Not sure that counts as 'large riots across France', do you have anything else?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,937
    Peter Capaldi is aging out. He's noticably older than where he was in his Doctor Who days (2013–2017, fact fans)

    He's also made a video for Greenpeace on who you should vote for

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61he5Z0e2sk
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    PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 553
    Is it true that pollsters adjusting for don’t-knows are not accounting for demographic changes (which has been terrible for the Tories in recent years)
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    LeonLeon Posts: 50,365
    Christ I seem to have woken up in St Malo as a centrist
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,076
    viewcode said:

    Peter Capaldi is aging out. He's noticably older than where he was in his Doctor Who days (2013–2017, fact fans)

    He's also made a video for Greenpeace on who you should vote for

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61he5Z0e2sk

    Greenpeace? For old fogeys. The cool kids are all about Just Stop Oil now (XR are too mainstream).
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,615
    kamski said:

    Leon said:

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    The far left’s response to Le Pen’s win: large riots across France, eg smashing up Paris

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1807587455740047380?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Yes, that’s really going to win people over, for the second round. Vote for the bloc that destroys things, after a vote, or vote for the party that promises to bring order?

    I can see the appeal to you of a party with a leader called Jardin Bordello...
    Are there any reliable news sources reporting on large riots across France? Visegrad24 is well dodgy.
    Evening Standard:


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/france-election-protests-paris-marine-le-pen-national-rally-macron-b1167813.html
    This is ALL that the article says:

    "Protesters clashed with police in central Paris as demonstrations were held against Marine Le Pen’s far-right National Rally (RN), which jumped into an early lead in France’s snap election.

    Thousands of people gathered in the Place de la Republique as first-round legislative elections on Sunday plunged the country into political uncertainty.

    Video showed fireworks being set off in the direction of police who responded by firing tear gas.

    Barricades designed to keep crowds under control were torched as protesters vented their anger."

    Plus a short clip of 2 fireworks going nowhere near the police (I've had fireworks being fired much closer to me on NYE on the streets in Germany), and police firing a cannister of tear gas.

    Not sure that counts as 'large riots across France', do you have anything else?
    To be honest that sounds like a quiet Sunday afternon in Paris these days.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 48,656
    Heathener said:

    If Rishi Sunak hadn’t got into bed with Suella Braverman, which was her price for his leadership, and IF he had tacked central and attacked the Far Right instead from the outset I don’t think this would have been the catastrophic result it’s likely to be. I don’t think Sunak was a bad Chancellor. They should have laid into Reform long ago.

    John Redwood in his inimitable fashion is claiming the truth is the opposite of this, but what else do you expect from him?

    The 'obvious' thing for Tory leaders to do - which generally involves being sensible and steering toward compromise - has been obvious to onlookers and, almost certainly, to a majority of their leaders since 2010. Yet it's always their party that stops them from doing it, and steers away to more extreme positions.

    Which is the odd thing, given that the Tories are set up with much more centralised decision-making than Labour. Yet Starmer has managed to marginalise the left wing almost entirely, despite their dominance of the party machinery just a few years ago, whereas each Tory leader proves impotent in the face of their own internal nutters.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,399
    My, the most blue on blue action since Marshal Balbo got shot down, and it's not even 0900 yet, never mind the lagershed.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 26,423
    Leon said:

    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Very, very, rarely do I agree with you but you are spot on about this.
    I voted Leave and I’m still glad we Left and I’d vote Leave again - but I deeply regret the division Brexit has wrought. And the amateurish way we handled everything has made a tough time much more painful than it needed to be

    And I now have more respect for the people who say referendums are dangerous and often damaging. After indyref and Brexit who does not think that?

    Sometimes they are unavoidable - and matters as big as Indy or Brexit do require a public vote. But if we are going to have them - rarely - we need to develop a more mature way of handling them. The Irish seem to do them quite well. They have a big national debate first. We could learn from that
    ...and then the Irish have a series of referenda until the right answer is arrived at. I was all for that!
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 15,470
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    Unfortunately, that would have been a non-starter. A debate before the Brexit vote would have descended into even more of

    "If we want the freedom to do X, it will have bad consequence Y, because that's how the EU operates."

    "No, that's just Project Fear. Once we have a proper negotiator in place, they will back down."

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,919
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    JFN said:

    I really dislike Theresa May's politics in many respects, but as a person she seems alright. I like to see former PMs who don't think that the daily grind of politics is beneath them.

    One of the reasons I ended up voting for Labour in this election, was for Ed Miliband to be in charge of energy and climate in the next Cabinet. I didn't vote for his local candidate at GE 2015, but I think he has a real interest in this area of policy, and I hope good will come of his time as a Cabinet Minister.

    I agree. Whilst her politics are not mine, she comes across as a decent public servant.
    A mixed bag. She campaigned against institutionalised racism, and for GRC Reform, but was also behind the "Hostile Environment" and Windrush scandal.

    Better than most recent Tory Prime Ministers isn't a very high bar.
    She was the worst. Her “red line” speech - entirely unwanted - made sure Brexit would be hideously painful and costly
    Nah, your hero Farage did that - along with the other Europhobes - when they did not set what Brexit meant for the referendum. A central lie that led to this mess.

    As ever with you, it's someone else's fault.
    Believe it or not I partly agree with you here

    A failure to define Brexit before the referendum WAS a fundamental error, but the responsibility lies not with Farage - he’s a blustering populist who was never in charge and therefore decided nothing. PM Cameron should have imposed this stipulation

    The whole vote was a shambolic disgrace. We should have had a formal national discussion about what Brexit might mean on both sides. We should have had a two stage vote. Remain or Leave, then, if Leave - what kind

    Cameron fucked the whole thing, just as he fucked the “renegotiations” and then lost the vote with his ineptitude. Quite why @TSE worships him escapes me. A mediocrity
    There's zero way Cameron could have defined what Brexit meant. And if he had, then Farage and the Europhobes within the party would have railed against it, whatever it was. He could only give his side of the argument.

    I LOL at you calling Cameron inept. I mean, the Europhobes have hardly shone, have they? A bunch of nasty incompetent fuckwits.
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 11,182
    Applying the old LLG vs RefCon logic (which I know you all love) to the national results in France, they are:

    LLG 52, RefCon 45

    As they don’t have SNP or Plaid equivalents this is closer to 100% than the GB version.

    The difference being that “RefCon” is dominated by the Reform equivalent, and the Liberal bit is a larger chunk of LLG.
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