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  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    To govern is to choose. The nature of politics is governed by the pre-political fact that not all good things are compatible with all other good things. A (small 'l') liberal society can only go so far in accommodating, for example, both toleration and equality for all cases and alleged cases of gender/sex dysphoria and at the same time privacy and safety for all women and girls (in the traditional sense of those words). Choices have to be made; all are hurtful to someone. The politics which simply denies the limits, the hurt and the reality of the choice is damaging, and there is lots of it about.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lots of people talking about Tom Tugendhat being the One Nation candidate for the leadership, but they seem to have forgotten that he's quite likely to lose his seat to the LDs.

    I think 'quite likely' is overstating it a bit, he has a 27,000 majority
    Yes but it has the right demographics for a big swing to the LDs with lots of Lab supporters voting tactically. RefUK won't do that well there because it's too middle-class.
    It's the 16th safest Tory seat, if it goes, they're all going. I mean, sure, it could, but 'quite likely' is overdoing it, especially as Lab were second in 2017
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,512

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886
    Sympathies to @Theuniondivvie









    for being a Scots Nat.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,927

    rkrkrk said:



    Hope you're feeling better - heard you had some ill health.

    Our local tory mp hasn't given up. Still paying to get leaflets delivered but suspect his time is up.

    Thanks, yes - had a stroke 8 weeks ago. Pretty much back to normal now except for a need to sleep for an hour most afternoons, and occasional struggles with memory.
    That's pretty much where I'm at now! Keep on keeping on..
    Blimey, PBers have been through the wars on the health front.

    Hope you all look after yourselves.
    Too many of us are on the wrong side of the healthy life expectancy graph.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,202

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    What's astonishing is that William Hill had 100/1 available on no Scottish Tory seats just a couple of weeks ago.

    Of course, they only allowed me 79p, but still.

    Rural scots will help the Tories.
    Yep - anti-SNP tactical voting is going to help the Tories in Scotland.
    Hmmm, this is possible, but I can't make the pieces fit. Given that the Scottish Conservative vote is rural, and given that the polling shows the Scottish Conservatives losing about 40% of their vote share, it looks quite dangerous for them.
    They won 6 seats in 2019. I think they win two or three seats this time.
    They could win more seats in Scotland than London.
    WIl they win Havering? London cabbie country?
    It's likely to be tighter than comfortable in both Romford and Hornchuch/Upminster, mostly because of right wing votes peeling off to Reform.

    Rosser's latest missive is getting a bit hysterical- apparently he's the only one left who can speak up for Romford and save us from Khan's Labour. (Is it a dog whistle when everyone can hear it?) But whilst a lot of the MRPs have both seats very tight, it doesn't feel like the front line of a general election out there.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,650

    Before I disappear back into the garden again I'd just like to draw everyone's attention to tomorrow's big event in the Post Office Inquiry.

    Gareth Jenkins begins four days of testimony. The sheer length of the inquisition says everything about his significance. He designed the infamous Horizon system and appeared as an Expert Witness for the Post Office. His failure to mention to the Courts the fallibility of the software contributed to numerous unfair convictions. He was,in short, a tainted witness.

    How is he going to play it?

    He is one of the few to have been questioned already by the Police in respect of possible charges of perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. The evidence against him appears overwhelming and it is almost certain he would have been charged by now but for the CPS's policy of waiting for the Inquiry to report.

    He is over 70 years old. He faces a long stretch if convicted. Will he turn King's Evidence? You might think that would be his best chance. He is not a PO man, so he owes little to the likes of Vennells and Perkins. On the other hand, he is doubtless being supported by his former employer, Fujitsu, if only through the payment of his legal fees. They presumably pay his pension too, so one expects him to be restrained in any criticism of them. How far that helps the PO is difficult to judge. There has been a bit of a blame game going on between F & the PO, but it hasn't broken out into open warfare - yet.

    We'll probably know within the first twenty minutes which way his evidence is going to go. Starts 9.45 am. Should be worth getting the popcorn in.

    Did you see the evidence last week from the subpostmasters "Union" man?

    It was utterly unbelievable. He took the 10 year old official line from the Post Office at every turn and clearly didn't give one hoot about any of his members.

    Something very odd there.
    It’s been made clear in the Private Eye stories and in the ITV film that the Union was, in the old phrase, about as much use as a chocolate teapot.
    There was one Union official, to be fair, who did some digging, but he didn’t follow through, and in any event was pretty smartly sidelined.
    Indeed, although seeing it in person so to speak was still shocking.

    Even after all this time he was still spouting the line that were "millions of transactions every day and therefore there could have been no systemic problem with Horizon".

    There was a funny moment when the microphones/network stopped working and Sir Wyn quipped that the odd technical problem was normal but apparently this might be a surprise to Mr Thomson.

    I don't have much time for Union bully-boys but to see one fighting for the employer was just bizarre.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lots of people talking about Tom Tugendhat being the One Nation candidate for the leadership, but they seem to have forgotten that he's quite likely to lose his seat to the LDs.

    I think 'quite likely' is overstating it a bit, he has a 27,000 majority
    Yes but it has the right demographics for a big swing to the LDs with lots of Lab supporters voting tactically. RefUK won't do that well there because it's too middle-class.
    It's the 16th safest Tory seat, if it goes, they're all going. I mean, sure, it could, but 'quite likely' is overdoing it, especially as Lab were second in 2017
    The biggish cheese who survives about the greatest possible tsunami is Barclay. He gets in even if there are only 10-20 Tories. I don't think any other magnitude cheese does. He could start a one man campaign to bore Britain into submission to a renewed Toryism.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,940
    TOPPING said:

    Sympathies to @Theuniondivvie









    for being a Scots Nat.

    Right back at you, Tory boy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,653
    “These tax locks are a mistake. They will constrain policy if a future government decides that it does in fact want to raise more money to fund public services."

    IFS.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316

    Before I disappear back into the garden again I'd just like to draw everyone's attention to tomorrow's big event in the Post Office Inquiry.

    Gareth Jenkins begins four days of testimony. The sheer length of the inquisition says everything about his significance. He designed the infamous Horizon system and appeared as an Expert Witness for the Post Office. His failure to mention to the Courts the fallibility of the software contributed to numerous unfair convictions. He was,in short, a tainted witness.

    How is he going to play it?

    He is one of the few to have been questioned already by the Police in respect of possible charges of perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. The evidence against him appears overwhelming and it is almost certain he would have been charged by now but for the CPS's policy of waiting for the Inquiry to report.

    He is over 70 years old. He faces a long stretch if convicted. Will he turn King's Evidence? You might think that would be his best chance. He is not a PO man, so he owes little to the likes of Vennells and Perkins. On the other hand, he is doubtless being supported by his former employer, Fujitsu, if only through the payment of his legal fees. They presumably pay his pension too, so one expects him to be restrained in any criticism of them. How far that helps the PO is difficult to judge. There has been a bit of a blame game going on between F & the PO, but it hasn't broken out into open warfare - yet.

    We'll probably know within the first twenty minutes which way his evidence is going to go. Starts 9.45 am. Should be worth getting the popcorn in.

    Did you see the evidence last week from the subpostmasters "Union" man?

    It was utterly unbelievable. He took the 10 year old official line from the Post Office at every turn and clearly didn't give one hoot about any of his members.

    Something very odd there.
    I checked in briefly, Flat, but everyone who has been following the Scandal will have known what to expect. His organisation has always been in the PO's pocket, and he was widely known as a mouthpiece for them, so his performance was no surprise.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886
    edited June 24
    algarkirk said:

    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    To govern is to choose. The nature of politics is governed by the pre-political fact that not all good things are compatible with all other good things. A (small 'l') liberal society can only go so far in accommodating, for example, both toleration and equality for all cases and alleged cases of gender/sex dysphoria and at the same time privacy and safety for all women and girls (in the traditional sense of those words). Choices have to be made; all are hurtful to someone. The politics which simply denies the limits, the hurt and the reality of the choice is damaging, and there is lots of it about.
    Isn't the issue (and wow I find myself going here) to protect citizens from criminals. The debate too often and easily elides the simple fact of being a trans man/woman with being a predatory criminal.

    Yes absolutely I can see that a predatory criminal can use this as a subterfuge, and yes the opportunity might increase (or might not) but first, this is a pretty rare occurrence (although occupies plenty of media attention), and secondly crime prevention doesn't cease just because someone is pretending to be trans.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 963
    TimS said:

    Another of those fun journalist visits constituency and talks to people videos. Could Liz Truss be in danger?

    https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1805164027435229251

    No Tory is truly safe. This is as the Americans call it a wave election. Which torys will be left when the tide is out? Well see
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886

    TOPPING said:

    Sympathies to @Theuniondivvie









    for being a Scots Nat.

    Right back at you, Tory boy.
    one fire burns out another's burning,
    One pain is lessened by another's anguish
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028
    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    Maternity leave is a birth-based right, not a sex-based one. It is not given to women who have not had a child.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886
    In the absence of the PO Inquiry, here btw is the IFS live-streamed event.

    https://ifs.org.uk/events/general-election-2024-ifs-manifesto-analysis
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There was a theory that both BBC and Channel 4 Racing were killed off by the same bloke who moved between those organisations, although probably these were multifaceted decisions with responsibility smeared over committees.
    First I have heard of it,John.

    I always thought The Morning Line [Ch4] was killed off by an incompetent and over-zealous producer who came in when ownership of the production company changed hands.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    Maternity leave is a birth-based right, not a sex-based one. It is not given to women who have not had a child.
    Birth and sex are rather related though.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,927

    rkrkrk said:



    Hope you're feeling better - heard you had some ill health.

    Our local tory mp hasn't given up. Still paying to get leaflets delivered but suspect his time is up.

    Thanks, yes - had a stroke 8 weeks ago. Pretty much back to normal now except for a need to sleep for an hour most afternoons, and occasional struggles with memory.
    That's pretty much where I'm at now! Keep on keeping on..
    Blimey, PBers have been through the wars on the health front.

    Hope you all look after yourselves.
    Too many of us are on the wrong side of the healthy life expectancy graph.
    At least I am still losing weight. Now -24kg this year. It has significantly slowed to a sustainable rate. Another 6kg to go, and if that takes the rest of the year that will be absolutely fine.
    Doing your 10,000 steps every day pounding the mean streets of ANME must help.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    edited June 24
    edit
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,814
    Sandpit said:

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    True or not, I'm not at a point in my life where I give a shit about Steve Baker's feelings
    You should do.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/steve-baker-northern-ireland-brexit-stress-b2290811.html

    He's not going to experience a Charles Kennedy moment after losing his seat but I do worry for him.
    Obviously, one has to feel some human sympathy for people in these sorts of circumstances - the nature of elections is that some people win and some lose, but it obviously affects people in different ways.

    However, I do wonder whether it will all be a bit of a relief for some of those MPs who lose. Westminster isn't necessarily great for people's mental health, and the mood among Tories who remain after 4th July is unlikely to be that great. A bit of time with family, taking a holiday and so on may not be the worst outcome.

    Kennedy was a different case, of course. Being an MP was his whole life from a very young age, he'd been having issues over a period of time, his marriage had ended and so on. It remains extremely sad.
    In 2010, I expected to lose, and had ramped up my spare-time involvement in translation in anticipation, as well as putting out feelers for other jobs - I assume many Tory MPs have done something similar. To my astonishment I nearly won, which would have been fun (Broxtowe started as a very safe Tory seat when I won it in 1997), but also would have made it much harder to find another job in 2015 after another 5 years. I think it'd be unusual, though, not to have any job options at all after a stretch in Parliament.
    I wonder if anyone has compiled a database of what the outgoing cohort of MPs did for a living before Parliament?

    I suspect that many were political animals of some sort (SpAd, party worker, Union organiser etc), and that lawyers are over-represented in Parliament compared to the general population, as are public-sector workers. We do all know one who was a bookmaker!
    43% of new Conservative MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 25% were in business/commerce, 9% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new Labour MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 12% trade union officials, 9.5% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new SNP MPs were councillors, 62% political/social/policy researchers, 16% in business/commerce and 6% party officials.

    36% of new LD MPs were councillors, 18% in business/commerce, 18% political/social/policy researchers and 9% lawyers and 9% teachers or academics.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,028

    viewcode said:

    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    Maternity leave is a birth-based right, not a sex-based one. It is not given to women who have not had a child.
    Birth and sex are rather related though.
    But not coterminous. See "England" and "The UK". I feel a Venn diagram approaching...
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There is a huge internal debate ongoing within the sport atm (witness the furore over the whip use rule change and the flak that the BHA gets). No one particularly expects it to last 20 years with jump racing going first and then, inevitably, flat racing. Then I suppose we are looking at eventing and show jumping.
    Presumably this all ends with the thoroughbred racehorse surviving only in zoos and as pets for very rich people.

    For the record, in the unlikely event that I am allowed the opportunity to return in my next life as any animal I wish, I would want to be a racehorse, although not in a zoo.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496

    “These tax locks are a mistake. They will constrain policy if a future government decides that it does in fact want to raise more money to fund public services."

    IFS.

    A fact obvious to every thinking person who does not hope to win a seat in a GE in which both the informed and the uninformed get to vote. Curiously every candidate of every party who wants to win is universally blind to this truth. There is little point in blaming them. Voters have decided that this will be so.

    The only way out is a main party agreed formula for a tax truce: 'We all agree that expenditure must be met by taxes, any of which may rise in accordance with the implementation of our manifesto'. No other elaboration allowed.

    No, this won't happen either.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886

    Before I disappear back into the garden again I'd just like to draw everyone's attention to tomorrow's big event in the Post Office Inquiry.

    Gareth Jenkins begins four days of testimony. The sheer length of the inquisition says everything about his significance. He designed the infamous Horizon system and appeared as an Expert Witness for the Post Office. His failure to mention to the Courts the fallibility of the software contributed to numerous unfair convictions. He was,in short, a tainted witness.

    How is he going to play it?

    He is one of the few to have been questioned already by the Police in respect of possible charges of perjury and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. The evidence against him appears overwhelming and it is almost certain he would have been charged by now but for the CPS's policy of waiting for the Inquiry to report.

    He is over 70 years old. He faces a long stretch if convicted. Will he turn King's Evidence? You might think that would be his best chance. He is not a PO man, so he owes little to the likes of Vennells and Perkins. On the other hand, he is doubtless being supported by his former employer, Fujitsu, if only through the payment of his legal fees. They presumably pay his pension too, so one expects him to be restrained in any criticism of them. How far that helps the PO is difficult to judge. There has been a bit of a blame game going on between F & the PO, but it hasn't broken out into open warfare - yet.

    We'll probably know within the first twenty minutes which way his evidence is going to go. Starts 9.45 am. Should be worth getting the popcorn in.

    Did you see the evidence last week from the subpostmasters "Union" man?

    It was utterly unbelievable. He took the 10 year old official line from the Post Office at every turn and clearly didn't give one hoot about any of his members.

    Something very odd there.
    He was extraordinary. However, I see his point.

    His brief, as he stated many times, was to protect the value of the PO SPMR franchise. He works on behalf of the SPMRs in order to provide maximum value for their businesses. To him, any BED in Horizon could and would devalue the value of a SPMR franchise. Hence it is in his, and arguably his members' interests to play down such BEDs because that would diminish the brand value.

    Acknowledging the fact that Horizon was not fit for purpose would be to the detriment of all current and future SPMRs.

    That is his job, as he saw it.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,814
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lots of people talking about Tom Tugendhat being the One Nation candidate for the leadership, but they seem to have forgotten that he's quite likely to lose his seat to the LDs.

    I think 'quite likely' is overstating it a bit, he has a 27,000 majority
    Yes but it has the right demographics for a big swing to the LDs with lots of Lab supporters voting tactically. RefUK won't do that well there because it's too middle-class.
    It's the 16th safest Tory seat, if it goes, they're all going. I mean, sure, it could, but 'quite likely' is overdoing it, especially as Lab were second in 2017
    The biggish cheese who survives about the greatest possible tsunami is Barclay. He gets in even if there are only 10-20 Tories. I don't think any other magnitude cheese does. He could start a one man campaign to bore Britain into submission to a renewed Toryism.
    As I have said before, I think MPs will put Barclay and Tugendhat in the last 2 and Barclay will win the members vote and become Leader of the Opposition (or Tory leader at least if absolute meltdown and the LDs and/or Reform win more MPs than the Tories)
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 963
    TOPPING said:

    In the absence of the PO Inquiry, here btw is the IFS live-streamed event.

    https://ifs.org.uk/events/general-election-2024-ifs-manifesto-analysis

    We talk about trust in politics eroding. But trust in the great British institutions like the Post Office must be rock bottom too. A low trust society is a very sad state of affairs. I'm not sure who has the will or ability to put it back together again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There is a huge internal debate ongoing within the sport atm (witness the furore over the whip use rule change and the flak that the BHA gets). No one particularly expects it to last 20 years with jump racing going first and then, inevitably, flat racing. Then I suppose we are looking at eventing and show jumping.
    Presumably this all ends with the thoroughbred racehorse surviving only in zoos and as pets for very rich people.

    For the record, in the unlikely event that I am allowed the opportunity to return in my next life as any animal I wish, I would want to be a racehorse, although not in a zoo.
    Well indeed but it is a direction of travel that those in the industry are keenly aware of. Hence the whip rule changes but these are fought tooth and nail by many.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,940

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There is a huge internal debate ongoing within the sport atm (witness the furore over the whip use rule change and the flak that the BHA gets). No one particularly expects it to last 20 years with jump racing going first and then, inevitably, flat racing. Then I suppose we are looking at eventing and show jumping.
    Presumably this all ends with the thoroughbred racehorse surviving only in zoos and as pets for very rich people.

    For the record, in the unlikely event that I am allowed the opportunity to return in my next life as any animal I wish, I would want to be a racehorse, although not in a zoo.
    'We thought he'd perform better as a gelding'
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    god you sound so bitter. Is your man going to lose?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,529
    NW Hants, notional result 2019:

    Con 60.1%, LD 18.5%, Lab 16.9%, Green 4.6%.

    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/elections/2240
  • PJHPJH Posts: 640
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    What's astonishing is that William Hill had 100/1 available on no Scottish Tory seats just a couple of weeks ago.

    Of course, they only allowed me 79p, but still.

    Rural scots will help the Tories.
    Yep - anti-SNP tactical voting is going to help the Tories in Scotland.
    Hmmm, this is possible, but I can't make the pieces fit. Given that the Scottish Conservative vote is rural, and given that the polling shows the Scottish Conservatives losing about 40% of their vote share, it looks quite dangerous for them.
    They won 6 seats in 2019. I think they win two or three seats this time.
    They could win more seats in Scotland than London.
    WIl they win Havering? London cabbie country?
    Labour won every seat in Havering in 1997 but the Tories won Upminster and Romford back in 2001 though Hornchurch and Dagenham stayed Labour. Rosindell at least should hold on by squeezing the Reform vote given he basically is a Reform MP in all but name anyway
    Also, not much of an effort being made by Labour in Romford, as far as I can tell. If they win it will be by accident. One generic Labour window poster up in my road, and I haven't seen any others anywhere else.

    Rosindell is pushing the 'Vote Reform get Labour' line in his leaflet complete with barchart from one of the MRPs. Only one leaflet from him so far, which is unusually few.

    No leaflet or evidence of campaigning from Reform, or indeed anyone else. So I assume everyone thinks Rosindell has it in the bag.

    Can't comment on Upminster.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    What's astonishing is that William Hill had 100/1 available on no Scottish Tory seats just a couple of weeks ago.

    Of course, they only allowed me 79p, but still.

    Rural scots will help the Tories.
    Yep - anti-SNP tactical voting is going to help the Tories in Scotland.
    Hmmm, this is possible, but I can't make the pieces fit. Given that the Scottish Conservative vote is rural, and given that the polling shows the Scottish Conservatives losing about 40% of their vote share, it looks quite dangerous for them.
    They won 6 seats in 2019. I think they win two or three seats this time.
    They could win more seats in Scotland than London.
    WIl they win Havering? London cabbie country?
    Labour won every seat in Havering in 1997 but the Tories won Upminster and Romford back in 2001 though Hornchurch and Dagenham stayed Labour. Rosindell at least should hold on by squeezing the Reform vote given he basically is a Reform MP in all but name anyway
    Also, not much of an effort being made by Labour in Romford, as far as I can tell. If they win it will be by accident. One generic Labour window poster up in my road, and I haven't seen any others anywhere else.

    Rosindell is pushing the 'Vote Reform get Labour' line in his leaflet complete with barchart from one of the MRPs. Only one leaflet from him so far, which is unusually few.

    No leaflet or evidence of campaigning from Reform, or indeed anyone else. So I assume everyone thinks Rosindell has it in the bag.

    Can't comment on Upminster.
    It would be very surprising if he lost, same with Upminster, Old Bexley, Orpington and3 or 4 others in London. London has already made the anti Tory move, the swing won't be anywhere near as big there. I can see them holding Finchley and Uxbridge for example if they have a better end night, I expect the 4 mentioned, Bromley and Biggin Hill, Ruislip at minimum to stay blue
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,307
    algarkirk said:

    “These tax locks are a mistake. They will constrain policy if a future government decides that it does in fact want to raise more money to fund public services."

    IFS.

    A fact obvious to every thinking person who does not hope to win a seat in a GE in which both the informed and the uninformed get to vote. Curiously every candidate of every party who wants to win is universally blind to this truth. There is little point in blaming them. Voters have decided that this will be so.

    The only way out is a main party agreed formula for a tax truce: 'We all agree that expenditure must be met by taxes, any of which may rise in accordance with the implementation of our manifesto'. No other elaboration allowed.

    No, this won't happen either.
    But, for example, take our dear friend Barty. He has a very strong view that the balance of taxation should be moved from employment income and towards unearned income or immobile assets, such as land.

    How would he be able to choose between the candidates asking for his vote, if they refused to say which taxes they would prefer to reduce, and which they would prefer to increase?
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There is a huge internal debate ongoing within the sport atm (witness the furore over the whip use rule change and the flak that the BHA gets). No one particularly expects it to last 20 years with jump racing going first and then, inevitably, flat racing. Then I suppose we are looking at eventing and show jumping.
    Presumably this all ends with the thoroughbred racehorse surviving only in zoos and as pets for very rich people.

    For the record, in the unlikely event that I am allowed the opportunity to return in my next life as any animal I wish, I would want to be a racehorse, although not in a zoo.
    Well indeed but it is a direction of travel that those in the industry are keenly aware of. Hence the whip rule changes but these are fought tooth and nail by many.
    Sure, you have to swing and sway with the mood and mores of the time. It's all a bit silly and hypocritical though.

    Have you ever seen a modern racing whip? Unless you used it in a perverse manner, you'd be hard put to inflict an injury on a human with it, never mind half a ton of racehorse.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,548
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    True or not, I'm not at a point in my life where I give a shit about Steve Baker's feelings
    You should do.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/steve-baker-northern-ireland-brexit-stress-b2290811.html

    He's not going to experience a Charles Kennedy moment after losing his seat but I do worry for him.
    Obviously, one has to feel some human sympathy for people in these sorts of circumstances - the nature of elections is that some people win and some lose, but it obviously affects people in different ways.

    However, I do wonder whether it will all be a bit of a relief for some of those MPs who lose. Westminster isn't necessarily great for people's mental health, and the mood among Tories who remain after 4th July is unlikely to be that great. A bit of time with family, taking a holiday and so on may not be the worst outcome.

    Kennedy was a different case, of course. Being an MP was his whole life from a very young age, he'd been having issues over a period of time, his marriage had ended and so on. It remains extremely sad.
    In 2010, I expected to lose, and had ramped up my spare-time involvement in translation in anticipation, as well as putting out feelers for other jobs - I assume many Tory MPs have done something similar. To my astonishment I nearly won, which would have been fun (Broxtowe started as a very safe Tory seat when I won it in 1997), but also would have made it much harder to find another job in 2015 after another 5 years. I think it'd be unusual, though, not to have any job options at all after a stretch in Parliament.
    I wonder if anyone has compiled a database of what the outgoing cohort of MPs did for a living before Parliament?

    I suspect that many were political animals of some sort (SpAd, party worker, Union organiser etc), and that lawyers are over-represented in Parliament compared to the general population, as are public-sector workers. We do all know one who was a bookmaker!
    43% of new Conservative MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 25% were in business/commerce, 9% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new Labour MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 12% trade union officials, 9.5% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new SNP MPs were councillors, 62% political/social/policy researchers, 16% in business/commerce and 6% party officials.

    36% of new LD MPs were councillors, 18% in business/commerce, 18% political/social/policy researchers and 9% lawyers and 9% teachers or academics.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf
    Thanks for that!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,080
    edited June 24
    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    What's astonishing is that William Hill had 100/1 available on no Scottish Tory seats just a couple of weeks ago.

    Of course, they only allowed me 79p, but still.

    Rural scots will help the Tories.
    Yep - anti-SNP tactical voting is going to help the Tories in Scotland.
    Hmmm, this is possible, but I can't make the pieces fit. Given that the Scottish Conservative vote is rural, and given that the polling shows the Scottish Conservatives losing about 40% of their vote share, it looks quite dangerous for them.
    They won 6 seats in 2019. I think they win two or three seats this time.
    They could win more seats in Scotland than London.
    WIl they win Havering? London cabbie country?
    Labour won every seat in Havering in 1997 but the Tories won Upminster and Romford back in 2001 though Hornchurch and Dagenham stayed Labour. Rosindell at least should hold on by squeezing the Reform vote given he basically is a Reform MP in all but name anyway
    Around that time there were gentrification shifts of WWC from areas such as that around Myddleton Square (essentially City / South End of Islington / Hackney). AIUI when I visited in 1991 some of it was 90% old London (conversations with a couple of local vicars about demographic change).

    When I was living in EC2 a decade later a lot of change had happened. Did they all go to places like Havering?

    One of the nicer squares in that area was where I think Lord Mandelbrot had an early flat in London when he landed in Islington from another planet. (which might have been Lambeth but I have not audited the history.)
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,205

    Unlike most on here, I would pin the Tories' woes almost entirely on Sunak, rather than Johnson and Truss. Here's why. Johnson and Truss both departed under a cloud. When he took over, Sunak had the chance to be a breath of fresh air - remember, at that time he was pretty popular with the public (Dishy Rishi) following his Covid largesse and his seeming intelligence and rationality. He really did have a chance to blow away the cobwebs deposited by Johnson and Truss and revitalise the Tory Party's sense of purpose.

    But Sunak blew it. Why? Because rather than being a fresh start, he attempted to follow Johnson's playbook, which regarded governing as being a never-ending state of campaigning. Don't do what's best - do what is (perceived to be) popular. The quality of governance didn't improve under Sunak - it possibly even got worse. Pragmatic policy-making was neglected by campaigning rhetoric about small boats, Rwanda, ULEZ/war on motorists, trans stuff, and many other poor decisions like HS2 took the place of coherent decision and policy-making.

    In summary - it's Sunak fault. He never got anywhere near establishing a coherent narrative for the future of the country under the Tories that he could sell on the doorstep.

    Yes I liked Sunak the Chancellor and had he steered clearly to the centre would have been open to voting for him. If he had steered Faragist some of those would have been open to voting for him.

    Instead he has tried to overtriangulate, given indications of both moving centrist and populist, executed and communicated terribly, failed to deliver for any of centrists, populists or party loyalists and annoyed us all. He is lucky to be on 20% still.
    This, in spades. He's a classic case of falling between two stools*. He could have tackled right, headed towards - smaller state/less regulation/cut back on the expensive bits of net zero and retained his right flank. He could have gone centrist and held his left flank. Instead he appears to systematically gone out to annoy both flanks.

    *inserts bad joke about toolmakers here.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Heathener said:

    Nigelb said:

    .How does he know "what it was" ?

    “You’ve been viewing the election from London, I’ve been viewing it from on the ground”

    Sir Liam Fox tells me he thinks the betting scandal has been “blown out into something more than it was”

    https://x.com/AliFortescue/status/1805009878324518976

    Another of the nasty mob who is about to lose his seat.

    I just hope sufficient of the nice ones remain.
    One, for Sandpit, and two so someone can be deputy leader? That should be enough.
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Another of those fun journalist visits constituency and talks to people videos. Could Liz Truss be in danger?

    https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1805164027435229251

    No Tory is truly safe. This is as the Americans call it a wave election. Which torys will be left when the tide is out? Well see
    The Gillingham and St Pancreas polls back that up - Labour will get massive swings in Tory safe seats, losing ground in Labour safe seats.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316
    Nunu5 said:

    TOPPING said:

    In the absence of the PO Inquiry, here btw is the IFS live-streamed event.

    https://ifs.org.uk/events/general-election-2024-ifs-manifesto-analysis

    We talk about trust in politics eroding. But trust in the great British institutions like the Post Office must be rock bottom too. A low trust society is a very sad state of affairs. I'm not sure who has the will or ability to put it back together again.
    Good question.

    Following the PO Scandal has taught me much about the way large, powerful institutions operate generally. I have been able to apply this knowledge to good effect in dealing with British Gas and a couple of Water Companies. (For example, it helps to understand that their customer service lines are there to help the company, not you.)

    Yes, it can be depressing, but at least we occasionally get to see how things really work and the PO Horizon Inquiry has done an excellent job in that respect.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,356
    Chameleon said:

    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Another of those fun journalist visits constituency and talks to people videos. Could Liz Truss be in danger?

    https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1805164027435229251

    No Tory is truly safe. This is as the Americans call it a wave election. Which torys will be left when the tide is out? Well see
    The Gillingham and St Pancreas polls back that up - Labour will get massive swings in Tory safe seats, losing ground in Labour safe seats.
    Alistair Meeks just posted his not a prediction thread to ensure he doesn't have a selective memory and gives these totals

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    Labour 475
    Conservatives 75
    Lib Dems 50
    SNP 20
    Reform 5
    Plaid Cymru 4
    Greens 2
    Speaker 1
    Northern Ireland 18

    I think the Reform and SNP figures there are a bit on the high side
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806
    theProle said:

    Unlike most on here, I would pin the Tories' woes almost entirely on Sunak, rather than Johnson and Truss. Here's why. Johnson and Truss both departed under a cloud. When he took over, Sunak had the chance to be a breath of fresh air - remember, at that time he was pretty popular with the public (Dishy Rishi) following his Covid largesse and his seeming intelligence and rationality. He really did have a chance to blow away the cobwebs deposited by Johnson and Truss and revitalise the Tory Party's sense of purpose.

    But Sunak blew it. Why? Because rather than being a fresh start, he attempted to follow Johnson's playbook, which regarded governing as being a never-ending state of campaigning. Don't do what's best - do what is (perceived to be) popular. The quality of governance didn't improve under Sunak - it possibly even got worse. Pragmatic policy-making was neglected by campaigning rhetoric about small boats, Rwanda, ULEZ/war on motorists, trans stuff, and many other poor decisions like HS2 took the place of coherent decision and policy-making.

    In summary - it's Sunak fault. He never got anywhere near establishing a coherent narrative for the future of the country under the Tories that he could sell on the doorstep.

    Yes I liked Sunak the Chancellor and had he steered clearly to the centre would have been open to voting for him. If he had steered Faragist some of those would have been open to voting for him.

    Instead he has tried to overtriangulate, given indications of both moving centrist and populist, executed and communicated terribly, failed to deliver for any of centrists, populists or party loyalists and annoyed us all. He is lucky to be on 20% still.
    This, in spades. He's a classic case of falling between two stools*. He could have tackled right, headed towards - smaller state/less regulation/cut back on the expensive bits of net zero and retained his right flank. He could have gone centrist and held his left flank. Instead he appears to systematically gone out to annoy both flanks.

    *inserts bad joke about toolmakers here.
    I suppose he was just copying what worked for Johnson.

    But Johnson started with goodwill from half the country over Brexit, better public finances and top notch bullshitting skills. Rishi had badwill from Bozo and especially Truss, already knackered public finances and his bullshit was just annoying rather than "funny". It was never going to work and should have been obvious to him and especially advisers around him.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092
    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    True or not, I'm not at a point in my life where I give a shit about Steve Baker's feelings
    You should do.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/steve-baker-northern-ireland-brexit-stress-b2290811.html

    He's not going to experience a Charles Kennedy moment after losing his seat but I do worry for him.
    Obviously, one has to feel some human sympathy for people in these sorts of circumstances - the nature of elections is that some people win and some lose, but it obviously affects people in different ways.

    However, I do wonder whether it will all be a bit of a relief for some of those MPs who lose. Westminster isn't necessarily great for people's mental health, and the mood among Tories who remain after 4th July is unlikely to be that great. A bit of time with family, taking a holiday and so on may not be the worst outcome.

    Kennedy was a different case, of course. Being an MP was his whole life from a very young age, he'd been having issues over a period of time, his marriage had ended and so on. It remains extremely sad.
    In 2010, I expected to lose, and had ramped up my spare-time involvement in translation in anticipation, as well as putting out feelers for other jobs - I assume many Tory MPs have done something similar. To my astonishment I nearly won, which would have been fun (Broxtowe started as a very safe Tory seat when I won it in 1997), but also would have made it much harder to find another job in 2015 after another 5 years. I think it'd be unusual, though, not to have any job options at all after a stretch in Parliament.
    I wonder if anyone has compiled a database of what the outgoing cohort of MPs did for a living before Parliament?

    I suspect that many were political animals of some sort (SpAd, party worker, Union organiser etc), and that lawyers are over-represented in Parliament compared to the general population, as are public-sector workers. We do all know one who was a bookmaker!
    43% of new Conservative MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 25% were in business/commerce, 9% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new Labour MPs elected in 2019 were councillors, 12% trade union officials, 9.5% political/social/policy researchers and 8% lawyers.

    52% of new SNP MPs were councillors, 62% political/social/policy researchers, 16% in business/commerce and 6% party officials.

    36% of new LD MPs were councillors, 18% in business/commerce, 18% political/social/policy researchers and 9% lawyers and 9% teachers or academics.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7483/CBP-7483.pdf
    Interesting but I don't quite get it. Councillors are not paid right? So were those who were previously councillors (43% Con, 52% Lab) also doing other jobs?

    Also, the numbers in that table on page 26 of that paper don't add up.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    edited June 24
    Roger said:

    DougSeal said:

    The thing that has done for the Tories is the complete lack of talent. At all levels. Their social media game is absolutely rotten for example. If you decide to narrow your appeal to a small client voter base, in this specific case one of a generation not perhaps naturally at home with social media, you’re catastrophically narrowing your talent pool. That extends all the way up to Rishi.

    They turned themselves into the nasty party then the VERY nasty party when Rishi took over at a moment they could have steadied the ship. Even if their polls told them immigration was a topic that exercised their potential voters Rwanda and Braverman repulsed far more than it attracted. Read Saatchi's essay on why voters main concerns are not necessarily what the the party should be seen to be obsessing about
    And if you're going to be nasty, you do need to be competent. Yet the number of different flavours of incompetence on display from the Tories' five PMs has been the remarkable thing.
  • Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    Even funnier if they both vote Lab given the reason the Cons insisted on the split in the first place!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    We miss Mr M.
    Indeed, I wish he could be persuaded to come back.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,653

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    Even funnier if they both vote Lab given the reason the Cons insisted on the split in the first place!
    My contact on the island told me six months ago that hell would freeze over before the tories lose the island.

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,202
    PJH said:

    HYUFD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Farooq said:

    eek said:

    What's astonishing is that William Hill had 100/1 available on no Scottish Tory seats just a couple of weeks ago.

    Of course, they only allowed me 79p, but still.

    Rural scots will help the Tories.
    Yep - anti-SNP tactical voting is going to help the Tories in Scotland.
    Hmmm, this is possible, but I can't make the pieces fit. Given that the Scottish Conservative vote is rural, and given that the polling shows the Scottish Conservatives losing about 40% of their vote share, it looks quite dangerous for them.
    They won 6 seats in 2019. I think they win two or three seats this time.
    They could win more seats in Scotland than London.
    WIl they win Havering? London cabbie country?
    Labour won every seat in Havering in 1997 but the Tories won Upminster and Romford back in 2001 though Hornchurch and Dagenham stayed Labour. Rosindell at least should hold on by squeezing the Reform vote given he basically is a Reform MP in all but name anyway
    Also, not much of an effort being made by Labour in Romford, as far as I can tell. If they win it will be by accident. One generic Labour window poster up in my road, and I haven't seen any others anywhere else.

    Rosindell is pushing the 'Vote Reform get Labour' line in his leaflet complete with barchart from one of the MRPs. Only one leaflet from him so far, which is unusually few.

    No leaflet or evidence of campaigning from Reform, or indeed anyone else. So I assume everyone thinks Rosindell has it in the bag.

    Can't comment on Upminster.
    Have to wonder if the big effect of Chargesnotpressedgate has been on the internal dynamics of Romford Conservatives (who presumably know more of the gossip than the rest of us). Lots of councillors drifting away and a Rolls Royce campaign machine making strange clunking noises.

    But yeah. Not much sign of anyone else thinking they can win. One Labour poster in my road (which would have been unheard of a decade ago), and no directly Vote Rosser posters either. (Though there are some from the cheeky scamp's Save Our Library campaign.)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    And it drives me nuts.

    What is the point of giving a tip if you don't give the odds? The most likely winner of each race is normally the favorite, so if you want to tip lots of winners just tip the fav. On the other hand if you want to make money you have to tip at decent odds which means you have to state what those odds are.

    Just saying what you think will win is pointless. You may as well say what side a coin will fall if you toss it in the air.
    My instant reaction is that for a lot of people horse racing will simply stop existing because the only time they think about it was through Today's racing tips.
    The BBC's racing coverage used to be brilliant. It had some outstanding presenters, and not just Sir Peter O'Sullivan. It barely mentions the sport now.

    I am told this is largely because the Sport has no supporters at a senior level within the organisation. Cost is undoubtedly a factor too, as is antipathy to a sport in which animals die from time to time.

    There is a huge internal debate ongoing within the sport atm (witness the furore over the whip use rule change and the flak that the BHA gets). No one particularly expects it to last 20 years with jump racing going first and then, inevitably, flat racing. Then I suppose we are looking at eventing and show jumping.
    Presumably this all ends with the thoroughbred racehorse surviving only in zoos and as pets for very rich people.

    For the record, in the unlikely event that I am allowed the opportunity to return in my next life as any animal I wish, I would want to be a racehorse, although not in a zoo.
    Well indeed but it is a direction of travel that those in the industry are keenly aware of. Hence the whip rule changes but these are fought tooth and nail by many.
    Sure, you have to swing and sway with the mood and mores of the time. It's all a bit silly and hypocritical though.

    Have you ever seen a modern racing whip? Unless you used it in a perverse manner, you'd be hard put to inflict an injury on a human with it, never mind half a ton of racehorse.
    I have and I have also seen pictures on TV of the jockeys (legitimately) smacking the horses which I can tell you is problematic for the BHA.

    Your problem is that you are trying to apply logic to it all.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    Was thinking about my comment last night re Sade’s ex-boyfriend. In the mid/late 90s I got in with a crowd of Royal College of Art graduates born in the late 50s/early 60s who moved to and bought up most of Hoxton and Shoreditch in the late Thatcher/early Major years. They’d started a deeply ironic post-modern rugby club (it still exists) I joined. One of them was the bloke I mentioned last night who went out with Sade. They are all, without exception, absolutely loaded. Fine Art and Fashion graduates. It was only then I realised I had first hand experience of how lucky that generation got it. For all their anti-establishment credentials I wonder how many of them will vote Tory this time out?

    I missed that exchange - who is her ex-boyfriend.
    A guy I played rugby with in the 90s when I was in my mid 20s and he his late 30s/early 40s. He and Sade were at the Royal College of Art together IIRC.
    Obviously a smooth operator!
    He was although had gone to seed a bit by the time I met him. I think he and @Leon may have moved in similar circles back in the day. Similar age, location and...erm...recreational habits anyway.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    He's going for sub-100 seats for the Conservatives. Hard to imagine to be honest. But the seat count is so highly sensitive to small changes in Tory vote share (much more so than Labour vote share), that it could end up like that or they could end up close to 200.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Nick Timothy:

    "According to a recent MRP poll produced by YouGov, Labour are on course to win 425 seats out of a total of 650. Yet in 134 of them, Labour’s vote share is lower than the combined total for the Conservatives and Reform. If the Tories manage to squeeze the Reform vote – something they have struggled to do so far – YouGov suggests they could double the number of seats they win."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/23/reform-voters-will-get-the-opposite-of-what-they-want/

    That's FPTP.
    That's a very muscular 'if' and an equally chunky 'could' - must be because of all the weight they are carrying
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759

    rkrkrk said:



    Hope you're feeling better - heard you had some ill health.

    Our local tory mp hasn't given up. Still paying to get leaflets delivered but suspect his time is up.

    Thanks, yes - had a stroke 8 weeks ago. Pretty much back to normal now except for a need to sleep for an hour most afternoons, and occasional struggles with memory.
    That's pretty much where I'm at now! Keep on keeping on..
    Blimey, PBers have been through the wars on the health front.

    Hope you all look after yourselves.
    Just to make it absolutely clear, I increasingly like (but don't usually get) a nap of an afternoon and have an occasional memory fart!
    The latter is a bit more concerning as my mother's side of the family have a strong incidence of dementia, but fit can ye dae.
    Nevertheless thanks for kind thoughts.
    Jeez, TUD, I had no idea you'd been so poorly. I'm also having to massively readjust my idea of how old you are - I'd guessed you were late 40s. Best wishes for a continued recovery. All sorts of advice out there about staving off dementia but I'd be lying if I said I knew which ones worked best! But staying mentally (and physically) active and good oral hygiene strikes me as good advice whether it works or not.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    edited June 24

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    Well worth a look. (And also his return to this site would be very welcome)

    And he goes (he calls it Not A Prediction and a Guess):

    Labour 475
    Conservatives 75
    Lib Dems 50
    SNP 20
    Reform 5
    Plaid Cymru 4
    Greens 2
    Speaker 1
    NI 18

    I see this is a repeat of above, but I'll leave it there. He is always worth paying close attention to.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    eek said:

    Chameleon said:

    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Another of those fun journalist visits constituency and talks to people videos. Could Liz Truss be in danger?

    https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1805164027435229251

    No Tory is truly safe. This is as the Americans call it a wave election. Which torys will be left when the tide is out? Well see
    The Gillingham and St Pancreas polls back that up - Labour will get massive swings in Tory safe seats, losing ground in Labour safe seats.
    Alistair Meeks just posted his not a prediction thread to ensure he doesn't have a selective memory and gives these totals

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    Labour 475
    Conservatives 75
    Lib Dems 50
    SNP 20
    Reform 5
    Plaid Cymru 4
    Greens 2
    Speaker 1
    Northern Ireland 18

    I think the Reform and SNP figures there are a bit on the high side
    I think the lib dem figure is too high by about 5 and the con figure is too low by about 20
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    edited June 24
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
  • Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    I doubt the folk currently running CCHQ will have much influence after the election on Con candidate lists or indeed anything else. P45s all round if the new leader has any sense and a one-way ticket back to Australia for the hapless tidy-beard Levido.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,512

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    god you sound so bitter. Is your man going to lose?
    Not as bitter as the sub-posties, eh?

    Whether we lose or not, the national Conservative Party has done its best to set its candidates' feet in concrete and throw them off the pier...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,128
    OnboardG1 said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    Given CCHQ has recently lost (to suspension) its heads of data and campaigning, who knows what the party's chief cook and bottle washer and acting campaign manager has decided.
    They had somebody in charge of campaigns?

    They should surely never run a campaign again, they’ve managed to beat Theresa May.

    Surely Isaac Levido is off too, he’s clearly clueless.
    I'm looking forward to reading the books that describe the horror of the campaign in all its glory.
    I am keen to hear the reasoning that sent Sunak out to make his election-announcing speech in the pouring rain, without an umbrella, and with Steve Bray making Sunak barely audible

    Looking back that was probably the high point of the campaign. All downhill since
    I think it was a rapid decision (possibly encouraged by people wanting to make a few quid betting) by people who didn't realise that there were very limited places where a political (none Government) announcement could be made.

    Hence no backup venue booked so Rishi ended up standing in the rain ruining a suit...
    And no one in Number Ten owns an umbrella???

    This was in Downing Street. Surrounded by tacky souvenir shops. It would have taken them 2 minutes to nip out and buy a Union Jack umbrella - providing a patriotic and jaunty image

    Instead they sent him out to get drenched and look insane and sad
    Perhaps they feared 'wally with the brolly' comments.

    Did they even need to make a personal announcement at all ?
    Cult of macho bullshit inside No 10 if I were to guess. "Oh he'd look like a wimp if he had an umbrella".
    Some twat saw that episode of West Wing where Bartlett announces re-election.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650
    Chameleon said:

    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Another of those fun journalist visits constituency and talks to people videos. Could Liz Truss be in danger?

    https://x.com/darrenmccaffrey/status/1805164027435229251

    No Tory is truly safe. This is as the Americans call it a wave election. Which torys will be left when the tide is out? Well see
    The Gillingham and St Pancreas polls back that up - Labour will get massive swings in Tory safe seats, losing ground in Labour safe seats.
    If that pattern's repeated across the country it's going to make the first declarations interesting - Labour doing worse than expected maybe in those early seats?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,963
    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW London Westminster voting intention for
    @QMUL


    📈33 point Labour lead

    🌹Lab 55 (+2)
    🌳Con 22 (-1)
    🔶LD 13 (-3)
    ➡️Reform 8 (=)
    🌍Green 5 (+1)

    1,022 Londoners, 10-18 June

    (change vs 26-30 April)

    https://x.com/Savanta_UK/status/1805182351233679861
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,963
    @estwebber
    Exc: Will Tanner, Sunak’s deputy chief of staff, tells activists he is in danger of losing Bury St Edmunds

    In a text, he says poll out today shows Cons on 32.5%, Labour on 32.7%, and Reform on 20.5%

    He adds "please protect this, as sent to me privately"

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/1805182708517077102
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316

    The Grim Reaper Mandy had to make a apperarance at some point. He came out of the shadows.

    Correction, please. Out of the crypt.

  • Andy_JS said:

    RobD said:

    Andy_JS said:

    FPT

    algarkirk said:

    R4 Today is today abandoning daily racing tips. One of those things, like the Shipping Forecast you pay no attention to but is part of life's harmless routine.

    Also WRT R4 Today, Heaton-Harris sounded terrible, just as if he had been up all night and wasn't sure where he was.

    Why are they abandoning it?
    I thought it was a joke. The Today program surely didn't used to have racing tips? :D
    They certainly did, I used to listen to it every day even though I'm not particularly interested in horseracing. It usually only lasted for about 15 seconds, just before 8:30.
    At the end of the sports bulletins at 0730 and 0830. They had talked about axing them for at least a couple of years due to hardening attitudes against gambling. Axing their full-time horse racing correspondents may have had rather more to do with it. Back in the day you could find out on R5 (not R5L) which one had given the tip and the variation in success rates was quite notable!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Actually surprisingly few. There's also Tierra del Fuego, and I think somewhere in the Baltic, but I think that's all.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Great Britain if some have their way,
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    St Martin/Maarten in the Caribbean - French/Dutch
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,963
    @robpowellnews

    Scottish Tory leader Douglas Ross - “can I start with the big news of the day… it was a penalty”.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,378
    DougSeal said:

    viewcode said:

    Farooq said:

    Still buzzing about JK Rowling coming out as a literal communist yesterday.
    We tried to tell you she was cracked and you didn't believe us.

    At least it made me check the Communist Party leaflet I received last week (still the only unsolicited election literature I've received) more closely.

    Women's Rights
    Give women full protection of the against domestic violence and misogyny. Pension justice for WASPI women. Protect women's sex-based rights. Equal pay for every type of work. Full rights to socialised child care. End sexism in society.

    A bit wooly and it strikes me that Jakey is loading a whole lot of hopium on the highlighted sentence.
    "Protect women's sex-based rights" and "End sexism in society" are contradictory. Sex-based rights are sexist by definition.

    Not really. Maternity leave, for example, is a sex based right. You're stretching a definition to breaking point to say that is sexist. Even in the absence of paternity leave, leave for the mother at and after the time of the birth is not sexist even if there is no male equivalent.
    Arguably the better one to take issue with is the Justice for WASPI women vs end sexism in society. The WAPSI women want money because they are being forced to have the same retirement age as men.*


    *I know the claim is actually about lack of notice, but that's also bollocks.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,512

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    Let's see how he fares before the Committee next month.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,378

    Chameleon said:

    theProle said:

    Farooq said:

    Nigelb said:

    Is this true ?

    https://www.iaindale.com/articles/is-starmergeddon-coming-for-the-tories
    ..If what I am hearing is right, CCHQ has more or less given up the ghost. I have heard of three candidates in Tory held seats with majorities of between four and six thousand, who have been ordered to shut down their campaigns and redeploy themselves to help cabinet ministers with majorities in excess of 20,000. And if they refuse, their computer logins to the party systems are cancelled and they’re told they won’t remain on the candidates list after the election...

    I wonder how someone in (say) Steve Baker's position would feel about that ?

    True or not, I'm not at a point in my life where I give a shit about Steve Baker's feelings
    Isn't that rather the wrong attitude? You might disagree with Baker on virtually everything, but he appears to be a very decent bloke with integrity, and politics would be better for more of them on all sides. I would say the same about the late Frank Field (with whom I agreed very little), or possibly even Denis Skinner (with whom I agree even less).

    I'd rather have a parliament made up of that quality of MP even if I largely disagree with them, than most of the current crop (on both sides of the house) which seems to be comprised of two faced PR men whose only thought on every issue is "what's in it for me".
    He is a unhappy person. Deep down I would bet on it.
    Not exactly a revelation that a man who has talked extensively about his battles with depression has been unhappy.

    FWIW it seems like he's a decent man, and while there's plenty I disagree with him on, at least he has his vision of how to improve the country, unlike a lot of the benches, who see their job as that of a social worker, or are there for the cheap booze.
    I have sympathy for anyone with that. We are all human after all.
    Not sure of that on here at times...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,886

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    Let's see how he fares before the Committee next month.
    Thanking his lucky stars it's two weeks after the GE.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,981
    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW London Westminster voting intention for
    @QMUL


    📈33 point Labour lead

    🌹Lab 55 (+2)
    🌳Con 22 (-1)
    🔶LD 13 (-3)
    ➡️Reform 8 (=)
    🌍Green 5 (+1)

    1,022 Londoners, 10-18 June

    (change vs 26-30 April)

    https://x.com/Savanta_UK/status/1805182351233679861

    That's a very different pattern from the rest of the country given it's movement since April. Reform not up at all, barely any movement in Conservative. It does suggest the Tories will do relatively much better in London than elsewhere.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,356

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    Let's see how he fares before the Committee next month.
    I suspect he will be fine - some civil servants and the Post Office board on the other hand will be thrown to the lions...
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,927

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    Even funnier if they both vote Lab given the reason the Cons insisted on the split in the first place!
    My contact on the island told me six months ago that hell would freeze over before the tories lose the island.

    What effect will hell freezing over have on global warming?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    Exc: Will Tanner, Sunak’s deputy chief of staff, tells activists he is in danger of losing Bury St Edmunds

    In a text, he says poll out today shows Cons on 32.5%, Labour on 32.7%, and Reform on 20.5%

    He adds "please protect this, as sent to me privately"

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/1805182708517077102

    I'd imagine that's focaldatas MRP out at 3pm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,162

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    We miss Mr M.
    We do. He was very eloquent. He gave me the word “penelopising” which is now my daughter’s favourite word

    Also the reason for his departure - incendiary anger at Brexit causing him to lose his rag with PBers to an alarming extent - has surely subsided. Indeed he could be on here enjoyably gloating at the Brexiteers’ downfall

  • eekeek Posts: 28,356
    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    Exc: Will Tanner, Sunak’s deputy chief of staff, tells activists he is in danger of losing Bury St Edmunds

    In a text, he says poll out today shows Cons on 32.5%, Labour on 32.7%, and Reform on 20.5%

    He adds "please protect this, as sent to me privately"

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/1805182708517077102

    There are going to be an awful lot of seats (quite possibly 100+) where Labour win with a majority significantly smaller than Reform's votes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,307
    edited June 24

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    A very well-reasoned piece, though I would quibble with several points.

    He doesn't say much about the process of converting vote shares into seats, but if you compare his prediction with Electoral Calculus for the same vote shares, then he's quite bullish on Labour seats (+12), mainly at the expense of the Lib Dems (-8).

    On the basis of targeting campaign resources, I'd expect Labour to underperform somewhat, as I'd expect the Tories to be putting more resources into the close seats than Labour, who will be wary of the risks of hubris, and have their own challenge from Galloway to contend with. Notably Alastair expects zero seats for Galloway and fellow travellers.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW London Westminster voting intention for
    @QMUL


    📈33 point Labour lead

    🌹Lab 55 (+2)
    🌳Con 22 (-1)
    🔶LD 13 (-3)
    ➡️Reform 8 (=)
    🌍Green 5 (+1)

    1,022 Londoners, 10-18 June

    (change vs 26-30 April)

    https://x.com/Savanta_UK/status/1805182351233679861

    That's a very different pattern from the rest of the country given it's movement since April. Reform not up at all, barely any movement in Conservative. It does suggest the Tories will do relatively much better in London than elsewhere.
    It's also hard to see Tories on 19% nationally if on 22% in London imo, 22% London would be more in line with 25% nationally would be the assumption I worked from.
    They'd hold 8 to 12 on that polling in London
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,759
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Actually surprisingly few. There's also Tierra del Fuego, and I think somewhere in the Baltic, but I think that's all.
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Actually surprisingly few. There's also Tierra del Fuego, and I think somewhere in the Baltic, but I think that's all.
    I take it back - there's actually 18:
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/islands-that-are-shared-by-more-than-one-country.html
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW London Westminster voting intention for
    @QMUL


    📈33 point Labour lead

    🌹Lab 55 (+2)
    🌳Con 22 (-1)
    🔶LD 13 (-3)
    ➡️Reform 8 (=)
    🌍Green 5 (+1)

    1,022 Londoners, 10-18 June

    (change vs 26-30 April)

    https://x.com/Savanta_UK/status/1805182351233679861

    That's a very different pattern from the rest of the country given it's movement since April. Reform not up at all, barely any movement in Conservative. It does suggest the Tories will do relatively much better in London than elsewhere.
    Khan (rightly or wrongly) gives them something to unite on in London.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW London Westminster voting intention for
    @QMUL


    📈33 point Labour lead

    🌹Lab 55 (+2)
    🌳Con 22 (-1)
    🔶LD 13 (-3)
    ➡️Reform 8 (=)
    🌍Green 5 (+1)

    1,022 Londoners, 10-18 June

    (change vs 26-30 April)

    https://x.com/Savanta_UK/status/1805182351233679861

    That's a very different pattern from the rest of the country given it's movement since April. Reform not up at all, barely any movement in Conservative. It does suggest the Tories will do relatively much better in London than elsewhere.
    It's also hard to see Tories on 19% nationally if on 22% in London imo, 22% London would be more in line with 25% nationally would be the assumption I worked from.
    They'd hold 8 to 12 on that polling in London
    That's also roughly what they were polling around the Mayoral election. Hence the list seats and votes might give a hint as to intra London regional strength
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968

    algarkirk said:

    “These tax locks are a mistake. They will constrain policy if a future government decides that it does in fact want to raise more money to fund public services."

    IFS.

    A fact obvious to every thinking person who does not hope to win a seat in a GE in which both the informed and the uninformed get to vote. Curiously every candidate of every party who wants to win is universally blind to this truth. There is little point in blaming them. Voters have decided that this will be so.

    The only way out is a main party agreed formula for a tax truce: 'We all agree that expenditure must be met by taxes, any of which may rise in accordance with the implementation of our manifesto'. No other elaboration allowed.

    No, this won't happen either.
    But, for example, take our dear friend Barty. He has a very strong view that the balance of taxation should be moved from employment income and towards unearned income or immobile assets, such as land.

    How would he be able to choose between the candidates asking for his vote, if they refused to say which taxes they would prefer to reduce, and which they would prefer to increase?
    Thank you, yes.

    I couldn't disagree more with the IFS or algarkirk that the tax locks are a mistake, we are taxed enough already on employment-based income.

    If you want to increase taxation then getting rid of loopholes, opt outs and ensuring everyone pays the same rate of taxation regardless of their age or how they earn their income would be quite a significant increase in taxation - but not an increase on those actually working for a living.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,092
    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Yes, bit of dramatic licence from me there.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,405
    Cookie said:

    rkrkrk said:



    Hope you're feeling better - heard you had some ill health.

    Our local tory mp hasn't given up. Still paying to get leaflets delivered but suspect his time is up.

    Thanks, yes - had a stroke 8 weeks ago. Pretty much back to normal now except for a need to sleep for an hour most afternoons, and occasional struggles with memory.
    That's pretty much where I'm at now! Keep on keeping on..
    Blimey, PBers have been through the wars on the health front.

    Hope you all look after yourselves.
    Just to make it absolutely clear, I increasingly like (but don't usually get) a nap of an afternoon and have an occasional memory fart!
    The latter is a bit more concerning as my mother's side of the family have a strong incidence of dementia, but fit can ye dae.
    Nevertheless thanks for kind thoughts.
    Jeez, TUD, I had no idea you'd been so poorly. I'm also having to massively readjust my idea of how old you are - I'd guessed you were late 40s. Best wishes for a continued recovery. All sorts of advice out there about staving off dementia but I'd be lying if I said I knew which ones worked best! But staying mentally (and physically) active and good oral hygiene strikes me as good advice whether it works or not.

    Interdental toothbrushes are great for oral hygiene. My dentist got me using them a couple of years ago. They're far more effective and easy to use than dental floss, and my gums have become noticeably healthier. Hopefully this is also helping to keep potentially dementia-inducing oral bacterial out of my bloodstream.
  • johntjohnt Posts: 166

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    A very balanced response. Those Tories wondering why they have become so unpopular and lacking in friends should use this exchange as a point of learning.
    Many politically neutral people believe that the Lib Dem’s did the right thing for the country by stepping in to a huge problem and trying to help sort the country out in 2010. As a ‘reward’ they were shafted by the Tories in 2015.
    The attempts to smear Davey are falling on increasingly deaf ears because people understand that many Tories have similar (or in many cases more important) questions to answer about the post office scandal and the electorate have heard enough of lies from a party where senior officials think it’s fine to use insider information to make a few quid out of betting.
    There is some truth in the old advice to be careful who you abuse on the way up because one day you might need them on the way down. The Tories have lost everyone who would work with them and now seem to be losing the electorate as well. That is likely to mean a few very, very difficult years for them indeed.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,927

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    Let's see how he fares before the Committee next month.

    TimS said:

    DougSeal said:

    I'm...just... so... glad... Rishi Sunak.. called an early...eleecczzzzzzzz.....

    Is this the only GE in history where everyone in the Conservative Party has given up?

    Whilst the campaign has been spectacularly inept, I just have this feeling that there must have been some issue buried deep down to make him cut and run in this way.
    I do think it might well be the King. If Sunak was told there was a considerable risk KCIII would die during an autumn election campaign, then we won't hear about it until after KCIII passes away, but it would probably make people think more kindly of Sunak. He went unprepared into an election campaign to ease the concerns of the Monarch.

    Though the Tories should have been well-prepared for an election at any time.
    Doesn't pass the smell test for me. Even Tories are not venal enough to bet on the date of an election caused by the King's health concerns and it's impossible to be that exact.
    And Davey has shown repeatedly that getting wet in an election campaign is not of itself a problem, it's how you get wet.
    Ed is all right. He has fun!
    There's a large number of sub-posties who would love to have been having fun getting wet. Instead, they were being locked up for 23 hours a day because Ed Davey was considerably incurious.

    The same could be said of every Minister responsible for the PO, from Peter Mandelson onwards, with the exception of Norman Lamb, who genuinely tried to help but was moved on before he could achieve much.

    Davey was demonised in the wake of the TV series. This was unfair, but it's politics and I have no issue with that. On a sophisticated Site like this however, I would expect a more balanced view to prevail, especially in the light of the contributions on the subject by such experts on the matter as Ms Cyclefree.

    Davey did at least have a meeting with Sir Alan Bates, even if nothing came of it,
    Let's see how he fares before the Committee next month.
    The LOTO at the PO inquiry? That should be interesting.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,316
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @estwebber
    Exc: Will Tanner, Sunak’s deputy chief of staff, tells activists he is in danger of losing Bury St Edmunds

    In a text, he says poll out today shows Cons on 32.5%, Labour on 32.7%, and Reform on 20.5%

    He adds "please protect this, as sent to me privately"

    https://x.com/estwebber/status/1805182708517077102

    There are going to be an awful lot of seats (quite possibly 100+) where Labour win with a majority significantly smaller than Reform's votes.
    B StE is just about on the cusp according to Baxter. It's the 77th safest Tory seat, so if it is truly marginal, we are probably looking at fewer than 100 Conservative MPs in the new House.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,128

    Cicero said:

    The Grim Reaper Mandy had to make a apperarance at some point. He came out of the shadows.

    The Dark Lord indeed.
    Have Mandelson and Sauron ever been seen in the same room?
    Sauron - yes
    Ungoliant - no
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,806

    Alastair Meeks has set out his expectations for the election.

    https://alastair-meeks.medium.com/not-a-prediction-bea8d1b7ae11

    In summary Tories to do better a little than expected in average polls and get 75 seats! I don't think that will be far off.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,940
    edited June 24
    Cookie said:

    rkrkrk said:



    Hope you're feeling better - heard you had some ill health.

    Our local tory mp hasn't given up. Still paying to get leaflets delivered but suspect his time is up.

    Thanks, yes - had a stroke 8 weeks ago. Pretty much back to normal now except for a need to sleep for an hour most afternoons, and occasional struggles with memory.
    That's pretty much where I'm at now! Keep on keeping on..
    Blimey, PBers have been through the wars on the health front.

    Hope you all look after yourselves.
    Just to make it absolutely clear, I increasingly like (but don't usually get) a nap of an afternoon and have an occasional memory fart!
    The latter is a bit more concerning as my mother's side of the family have a strong incidence of dementia, but fit can ye dae.
    Nevertheless thanks for kind thoughts.
    Jeez, TUD, I had no idea you'd been so poorly. I'm also having to massively readjust my idea of how old you are - I'd guessed you were late 40s. Best wishes for a continued recovery. All sorts of advice out there about staving off dementia but I'd be lying if I said I knew which ones worked best! But staying mentally (and physically) active and good oral hygiene strikes me as good advice whether it works or not.

    Thanks, but there’s life in the scabby old dog yet!
    However I think for most folk who tool along in reasonably good health there comes a precipice when a few things can hit you at once. Dementia is the one thing I fear more than anything so I probably fixate a bit too much on that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,972
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Actually surprisingly few. There's also Tierra del Fuego, and I think somewhere in the Baltic, but I think that's all.
    Cookie said:

    TimS said:

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The Isle of Wight is being split in two for this election. I was just thinking it would be funny if one of the seats went to the Greens and the other to RefUK.

    That could lead to a Korea style partition.
    More Cyprus surely. Island and all that. Maybe with a tiny bit of British crown territory somewhere near the Needles.

    A surprising number of divided islands now I come to think of it. Timor, Borneo, Papua, Ireland, Hispaniola. Probably more I've forgotten.
    Actually surprisingly few. There's also Tierra del Fuego, and I think somewhere in the Baltic, but I think that's all.
    I take it back - there's actually 18:
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/islands-that-are-shared-by-more-than-one-country.html
    One of those is currently occupied.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syvash
This discussion has been closed.