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MoonRabbit said:

EPG said:

MoonRabbit said:

EPG said:

ydoethur said:

viewcode said:

The question is not whether people who use public schools to educate their children are rich or poor, good or evil, deserving or undeserving. The question is whether it is a "them" problem (the responsibility of the individual) or an "us" problem (the responsibility of the collective and hence the nation). For the life of me I can't put it in the latter category. The government is responsible for providing education (I think?) but should not enforce its use. If Casino or anybody else wants to educate his children in public schools, and he can afford it, then the state should not compel him.

That, to be fair, is not what this is about, unlike in 1987 when Kinnock did stand on a manifesto of outlawing fee paying education.

It's about realism and incentives and what damage is done along the way.

This is a bad policy because it will kill marginal schools while leaving Eton untouched.

But if we say the government shouldn't interfere at all, where does that go? Do we then adopt the TSE idea of vouchers for all which can be doubled for poorer families and topped up by richer ones?

(FWIW I think that's a much better policy in terms of social mobility than VAT on private schools.)

Are you saying Eton will pay no VAT?

We are saying those school in top echelon arn’t struggling financially, nor will they, not least because the increase to cover tax is peanuts to some of those parents, whilst at the same time this policy will kill the ability to pay of aspirational families with less income and in the marginal schools outside the top echelon.

Overall Net result is a tax policy brings in no extra revenue as increase state school tab is larger than tax brought in, whilst, and this is the kicker, at same time the policy helps divide our country and education even more between the rich and the poor.

Typical myopic brain dead socialism, they haven’t a clue about inherent vice of every policy they have in their manifesto. And look at the cheerleaders and supporters of it in here - how clever are they? Not very bright is the answer.

You're saying "the poor" are sending their kids to private schools? Because anecdotally it sounds like it's six-figure earners threatening to Phil Collins it to tax exile.

Aspirational working class, taking on extra jobs to give their children a chance in life, squeezed middle earners, tradesman, electricians, carpenters, midwives. The voters Labour need for a majority, and I pointed on on previous thread, canvassers of all parties are experiencing a huge backlash to this policy on the doorsteps, to which Labour are in shock and have no response. This is why it’s about to become THE story of this campaign very soon.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

While not wishing to wade into the private school debate, TIL Alton Convent was renamed Alton School. Such a small world as I used to know a few people that went there, along with a few people to Eggars' (state) just up the road.

Alton Convent was about a 10 minute drive from my house. I am sure some people can probably work out where I grew up.

biggles said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

While not wishing to wade into the private school debate, TIL Alton Convent was renamed Alton School. Such a small world as I used to know a few people that went there, along with a few people to Eggars' (state) just up the road.

Alton Convent was about a 10 minute drive from my house. I am sure some people can probably work out where I grew up.

Alton….?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

PJH said:

I can't believe there is so much discussion of VAT on private schools. It really does show how unrepresentative of the wider population this board is.

I think it does show the discussion here is unrepresentative.

I can understand some people have strong opinions about it if it is going to cost them money, but I can't understand their thinking that if the Tories press the issue it is going to transform the contest. It will just not be important to enough people who are open to switching to the Tories.

Perhaps an interesting question is whether the people who have Rishi Sunak's ear are similarly unrealistic about this and similar issues.

I would just comment that @RochdalePioneers confirmed to me when I asked him that it is Lib Dem policy to oppose vat on private school fees so not just conservatives

EPG said:

ydoethur said:

viewcode said:

The question is not whether people who use public schools to educate their children are rich or poor, good or evil, deserving or undeserving. The question is whether it is a "them" problem (the responsibility of the individual) or an "us" problem (the responsibility of the collective and hence the nation). For the life of me I can't put it in the latter category. The government is responsible for providing education (I think?) but should not enforce its use. If Casino or anybody else wants to educate his children in public schools, and he can afford it, then the state should not compel him.

That, to be fair, is not what this is about, unlike in 1987 when Kinnock did stand on a manifesto of outlawing fee paying education.

It's about realism and incentives and what damage is done along the way.

This is a bad policy because it will kill marginal schools while leaving Eton untouched.

But if we say the government shouldn't interfere at all, where does that go? Do we then adopt the TSE idea of vouchers for all which can be doubled for poorer families and topped up by richer ones?

(FWIW I think that's a much better policy in terms of social mobility than VAT on private schools.)

Are you saying Eton will pay no VAT?

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

This kind of abusive response illustrates why it's so difficult to have a sensible discussion here.

I might object to someone telling me I'm wrong - solely for reasons of face and politics
- when I'm privy to the inside story from the Trustees and the Headmaster and it directly affects my son, his teachers (people I know) and the local community.

Just a thought.

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

Sorry, I had a look at their website.

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Allies of Diane Abbott say they can see a World in which she doesn't stand as Labour MP for Hackney North

They say 'she has made her point' - she has succeeded into forcing Starmer to back down - and could now go under her own terms

They suggest Diane is thinking about it in the run-up to the deadline on Tuesday. No word yet this morning from Diane herself

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1797194478672859398

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

This kind of abusive response illustrates why it's so difficult to have a sensible discussion here.

I might object to someone telling me I'm wrong - solely for reasons of face and politics
- when I'm privy to the inside story from the Trustees and the Headmaster and it directly affects my son, his teachers (people I know) and the local community.

Just a thought.

Just stop being abusive to people.

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Election fraud claims being reviewed by police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1eewd5xgjgo

How is this any different from Tories for Nick Palmer that famously didn't do him any good in the end?

MoonRabbit said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Allies of Diane Abbott say they can see a World in which she doesn't stand as Labour MP for Hackney North

They say 'she has made her point' - she has succeeded into forcing Starmer to back down - and could now go under her own terms

They suggest Diane is thinking about it in the run-up to the deadline on Tuesday. No word yet this morning from Diane herself

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1797194478672859398

If this report is true, she has clearly accepted the 30 pieces of silver. And so the saddest of ends for her, abandoning her cause and comrades for self gain. At least when someone sells out on point of principle or ideology you can half forgive them, but not for self gain taking whatever it is they offered her.

Vanilla Starmerite now takes her seat, and Labour take another stride to being a disastrous echo chamber of a government.

Incidentally, Sunday Times has Labour MPs telling them they have been offered a gong and place in House of Lords to stand down, Cooper in TV today called every single one of them a liar.

biggles said:

ydoethur said:

EPG said:

ydoethur said:

viewcode said:

The question is not whether people who use public schools to educate their children are rich or poor, good or evil, deserving or undeserving. The question is whether it is a "them" problem (the responsibility of the individual) or an "us" problem (the responsibility of the collective and hence the nation). For the life of me I can't put it in the latter category. The government is responsible for providing education (I think?) but should not enforce its use. If Casino or anybody else wants to educate his children in public schools, and he can afford it, then the state should not compel him.

That, to be fair, is not what this is about, unlike in 1987 when Kinnock did stand on a manifesto of outlawing fee paying education.

It's about realism and incentives and what damage is done along the way.

This is a bad policy because it will kill marginal schools while leaving Eton untouched.

But if we say the government shouldn't interfere at all, where does that go? Do we then adopt the TSE idea of vouchers for all which can be doubled for poorer families and topped up by richer ones?

(FWIW I think that's a much better policy in terms of social mobility than VAT on private schools.)

Are you saying Eton will pay no VAT?

Eton has two options:

Option one; to charge the VAT in which case most of their parents will be able to afford it with no trouble at all and they will be unaffected;

Option two; to meet the additional requirement for VAT out of their income from endowments, which is sufficiently large that they could probably afford not to charge fees at all for around 50 years.

My guess is they will have some combination of the two.

The irony is, if they go for option two and at the same time are forced to become a corporation, they will probably end up running at a constant loss as a result and so pay no corporation tax.

You forgot option 3, with is a build on option 2 in which a raft of tax advisory practices redesign them into a nest of service companies within service companies, and avoid the VAT too.

ydoethur said:

Anyway, some good news:

Estimated 9.91 GW of electrical power from solar today, 31% of demand (and that's while using it to recharge out pumped hydro stations during the day).

Must be close to a record, surely?

If not -that's even better news. Shows we are still decarbonising our grid.

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

This kind of abusive response illustrates why it's so difficult to have a sensible discussion here.

I might object to someone telling me I'm wrong - solely for reasons of face and politics
- when I'm privy to the inside story from the Trustees and the Headmaster and it directly affects my son, his teachers (people I know) and the local community.

Just a thought.

Just stop being abusive to people.

No, fuck you.

If people try and tell me I'm lying, dismiss my concerns, or dismiss the reality of what is DIRECTLY AFFECTING MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS then you expect an intemperate response. Every time

Since I never see you, ever, objecting to when anyone digs, ridicules or insults me - only ever chipping in at my response to such goals- I can seriously say, fuck you.

You're a nasty partisan little sniper.

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

Sorry, I had a look at their website.

You should be.

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Election fraud claims being reviewed by police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1eewd5xgjgo

How is this any different from Tories for Nick Palmer that famously didn't do him any good in the end?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

Chris said:

ydoethur said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

Yes.

That's not based on any expertise in tax but it *is* based on working with around 20 private schools in various consultancy and tutoring roles.

And can you point to an alternative estimate that you think is nearer to the mark?

Stuartinromford said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

Let's get a few things clear.

The two schools the Telegraph has highlighted have been struggling for a while. The VAT announcement can't have helped, but as a coup de grace, not killing a fundamentally sound institution.

Lots of other factors- cost of living, falling numbers of children and international market factors- are also issues.

Independent schools could, you know, cut their coats according to their cloth. They don't have to pass on the increased costs, and their record in recent decades has been to spend like sailors and charge accordingly, because they've been able to. The sort of economies needed are the sort that the state has been demanding of most schools for years.

And whilst it's never nice to have to find a new job, I'm pretty confident that any redundant teacher will find a job in the state sector. It's really short of people right now.

A final thought experiment. Suppose a government were to announce the reverse: finding VAT exemption for independent schools by cutting mental health support workers for state schools. Does anyone really want to go into bat for that?

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

tlg86 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Election fraud claims being reviewed by police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1eewd5xgjgo

How is this any different from Tories for Nick Palmer that famously didn't do him any good in the end?

I must have missed that - was that in 2015?

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:

ydoethur said:

Malmesbury said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

The ST story of the £450m that will have to be repaid by the SNP government just appals me but my disgust goes far wider than the SNP government.

This money could have been spent on anti-poverty (principally programs designed to overcome barriers to work) and programs to boost economic growth. Programs are still eligible for the grants provided that they are made this month (despite the program officially ending in 2020).

The EU said, in 2019, that there had been 27 suspensions of payments across the whole EU because of failures to adequately audit and vouch the spending of the money. 19% of all such suspensions have been in Scotland, a country of 5.4m out of more than 500m (before the UK left).

Both Douglas Ross and Jackie Baillie are shouting this morning how shocking this is and it is indeed shocking. But:
* if Scotland had a civil service worthy of the name this simply would not have happened.
* where were Ross and Baillie when the prior suspensions happened? Why were the alarm bells not ringing loud?
*Why have our local authorities of all stripes not been competing vigorously for that money in their areas?
* What Ministers were responsible for these multiple failures and lack of focus and what consequences, if any, did they face? Do we even know who they are?
* What is happening right now across government and local authorities to ensure as much of this money as possible is applied for by the end of the month?
* Why were opposition politicians dependent upon a story in the ST based on a report to discover there was even a problem here? What the hell do shadow Ministers actually do with their time?

What this shows is that our Scottish government is utterly incompetent at every level, both Ministerial and administrative. As are our opposition parties. As are our local authorities. As, indeed, are our third sector who should have been promoting qualifying projects. This is not just a stick with which to beat the SNP, it is a condemnation of our entire system of governance, social society and democratic accountability.

Working in education, I feel your pain.

There is a weird thing in some parts of local and regional government - they seem upset with people applying for lottery and other funding which doesn’t go through them. To the point of hindering an application.

A relative was involved with a lottery application by a sports club for money to rebuild a shack of a clubhouse with a proper structure.

The local council spent a surprising amount of time and effort trying to screw up the application.

West Oxfordshire District Council?

How did you guess?

My inner Jeremy Clarkson said something...

Stuartinromford said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

Let's get a few things clear.

The two schools the Telegraph has highlighted have been struggling for a while. The VAT announcement can't have helped, but as a coup de grace, not killing a fundamentally sound institution.

Lots of other factors- cost of living, falling numbers of children and international market factors- are also issues.

Independent schools could, you know, cut their coats according to their cloth. They don't have to pass on the increased costs, and their record in recent decades has been to spend like sailors and charge accordingly, because they've been able to. The sort of economies needed are the sort that the state has been demanding of most schools for years.

And whilst it's never nice to have to find a new job, I'm pretty confident that any redundant teacher will find a job in the state sector. It's really short of people right now.

A final thought experiment. Suppose a government were to announce the reverse: finding VAT exemption for independent schools by cutting mental health support workers for state schools. Does anyone really want to go into bat for that?

EPG said:

Chris said:

ydoethur said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

Yes.

That's not based on any expertise in tax but it *is* based on working with around 20 private schools in various consultancy and tutoring roles.

And can you point to an alternative estimate that you think is nearer to the mark?

That Guardian article in précis: " I have heard that a leading industry consultant advises schools to budget for a near 25% decline by 2030"

So, the accepted estimate is to just ask someone who makes money from private education, and believe whatever they say.

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

This kind of abusive response illustrates why it's so difficult to have a sensible discussion here.

I might object to someone telling me I'm wrong - solely for reasons of face and politics
- when I'm privy to the inside story from the Trustees and the Headmaster and it directly affects my son, his teachers (people I know) and the local community.

Just a thought.

Just stop being abusive to people.

No, fuck you.

If people try and tell me I'm lying, dismiss my concerns, or dismiss the reality of what is DIRECTLY AFFECTING MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS then you expect an intemperate response. Every time

Since I never see you, ever, objecting to when anyone digs, ridicules or insults me - only ever chipping in at my response to such goals- I can seriously say, fuck you.

You're a nasty partisan little sniper.

No, I just said you should stop being abusive. Try to express your concerns and so on without continually effing, blinding, "wankfucking" and generally making personal attacks on people you disagree with.

I will attack any of those who abuse or insult me, cast aspirations on my integrity, or take partisan sides in any of the same, I.e. attacking me without attacking those who don't do the same. You can count on it.

For you? Congratulations: you win the sanctimonious little shit of the day award.

As far as I'm concerned you're the "male" version of Heathener.

Away with you.

biggles said:

ydoethur said:

Anyway, some good news:

Estimated 9.91 GW of electrical power from solar today, 31% of demand (and that's while using it to recharge out pumped hydro stations during the day).

Must be close to a record, surely?

If not -that's even better news. Shows we are still decarbonising our grid.

Solar on every new build or refurbed house or business in the country seems like a sensible regulation at this point, and worthy of a subsidy.

viewcode said:

Leon said:

Here’s a straw poll

Of my ten best friends

Two have moved to America
One has moved to France
One moved to America but is now moving to Spain
One is in the process of moving to Thailand

That’s five out of ten. All late middle aged men who either earn good money (and pay the tax on it) or they earn amazing money (and pay insane tax)

All gone or going from the UK

What solution do you propose that would be consistent with the nation-state? You (and arguably Casino) can work abroad *regardless* of who forms HMG. I understand your point but I don't know what the solution is. We have too many old and sick to adopt a Singapore option and I don't think Singapore scales to a country anyway. So I'm stuck.

Question: does this mean the end of the nation-state as the organising entity? If the talent migrates to the lowest tax regime and sunniest weather, how does Britain survive?

megasaur said:

EPG said:

Chris said:

ydoethur said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

Yes.

That's not based on any expertise in tax but it *is* based on working with around 20 private schools in various consultancy and tutoring roles.

And can you point to an alternative estimate that you think is nearer to the mark?

That Guardian article in précis: " I have heard that a leading industry consultant advises schools to budget for a near 25% decline by 2030"

So, the accepted estimate is to just ask someone who makes money from private education, and believe whatever they say.

Experts tend to make money out of the thing they are experts in.

FrancisUrquhart said:

JohnO said:

tlg86 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Election fraud claims being reviewed by police
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1eewd5xgjgo

How is this any different from Tories for Nick Palmer that famously didn't do him any good in the end?

I must have missed that - was that in 2015?

Tories for Palmer made their first appearance 2005-10. He was very narrowly defeated in that election.

Crickey was it that far back.

Stocky said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Chris said:

Casino_Royale said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

You haven't a clue what you're fucking talking about.

Don't even try.

This kind of abusive response illustrates why it's so difficult to have a sensible discussion here.

I might object to someone telling me I'm wrong - solely for reasons of face and politics
- when I'm privy to the inside story from the Trustees and the Headmaster and it directly affects my son, his teachers (people I know) and the local community.

Just a thought.

Just stop being abusive to people.

No, fuck you.

If people try and tell me I'm lying, dismiss my concerns, or dismiss the reality of what is DIRECTLY AFFECTING MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS then you expect an intemperate response. Every time

Since I never see you, ever, objecting to when anyone digs, ridicules or insults me - only ever chipping in at my response to such goals- I can seriously say, fuck you.

You're a nasty partisan little sniper.

You are reacting to a risk to your family that you believe (probably correctly) is coming your way. My concern is pensions, which I think is going to be used as a political football once again, e.g. perhaps by limiting the mitigating action you can take regarding your high marginal rate of income tax and making changes to defined contribution pensions which will even more favour the public sector versus the private sector.

nico679 said:

MoonRabbit said:

BatteryCorrectHorse said:

Allies of Diane Abbott say they can see a World in which she doesn't stand as Labour MP for Hackney North

They say 'she has made her point' - she has succeeded into forcing Starmer to back down - and could now go under her own terms

They suggest Diane is thinking about it in the run-up to the deadline on Tuesday. No word yet this morning from Diane herself

https://x.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1797194478672859398

If this report is true, she has clearly accepted the 30 pieces of silver. And so the saddest of ends for her, abandoning her cause and comrades for self gain. At least when someone sells out on point of principle or ideology you can half forgive them, but not for self gain taking whatever it is they offered her.

Vanilla Starmerite now takes her seat, and Labour take another stride to being a disastrous echo chamber of a government.

Incidentally, Sunday Times has Labour MPs telling them they have been offered a gong and place in House of Lords to stand down, Cooper in TV today called every single one of them a liar.

She said she wasn’t aware of this . Big difference . You’ve also accused Abbott of something . She might decide to leave parliament and not go into the HOL even if the story has any legs .

ydoethur said:

Chris said:

ydoethur said:

Chris said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Chris said:

kyf_100 said:

Eabhal said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Casino_Royale said:

nova said:

Casino_Royale said:

Carnyx said:

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Fpt for @Farooq and the other pb lefties because this is a really important debate


@Casino_Royale is a smart, hard working heterosexual white British male. British society is doing everything it can to tell him he is despised just for being a straight white male, and everyone else - every woman, every minority, everyone else has priority over him

At the same time the state is asking him to pay more and more tax for increasingly shabby public services because the state insists on importing 700,000 people a year (that no one asked for) putting ever more pressure on everything - and what money is left over must be spent - billions a year - on housing asylum seekers who are really just economic migrants but we are too spineless to say this and to pathetic to keep them out

And still you scoff at the idea @Casino_Royale might think “Fuck this” and bugger off somewhere else


Edit to add: At the same time as Britain is doing this, and as Britain seems to be gaining the climate of the Faroe Islands, lots of countries with better climates and nice cities and less Wokeness which aren’t intrinsically hostile to straight white men are adopting favourable tax regimes to attract people like @Casino_Royale

We really are in danger or driving away the smart hard working people that pay for the British state. What then?

For every 12 of me that go the State loses £1 million of tax revenue.

But (in the case of employees, obvs) your jobs will still remain. And someone else will fill them.

The concept of unfulfilled vacancies is clearly alien to you then?

Are you suggesting you're irreplaceable?

That's quite the claim.

Perhaps (and this is aimed at Leon's comment, not yours), the over-representation of white British heterosexual males in some industries is a failure of capitalism, and if a few of them left it wouldn't be the disaster they imagine.

Jesus Christ.

This is the country we're becoming, folks.

It’s such an offensively stupid remark I wonder if @nova is a Russian bot. And this is designed to stir up yet more anger

If it is real, god help us. As you say. Why should the likes of you or I pay to support a state that looks after @nova and all the others that hate us? Our taxes go to people that despise us

It's also nonsense. I've had job offers from partners in my firm to work in Hong Kong, Washington DC and the Middle East (UAE and Saudi) just over the last 9 months.

Now, as it happens, I said no because my kids were settled in school and we didn't want to uproot them. But, given Labour have uprooted one of them anyway, there comes a point where I might just take the plunge.

I've been listening to @Gardenwalker carefully on this and he doesn't make it sound so bad.

Labour aren't in Government, there is no VAT on private schools.

Your child's school failed for any number of reasons but it wasn't because Labour applied VAT.

Our son holds a senior management position in our local private school and the imposition of vat, certain now Starmer is going to be PM in a few weeks , is having an effect on their school numbers and across the industry

It is also seriously worrying teachers in these schools and to suggest because Starmer is not in power it is not the cause of disruption in the industry is simply not borne out by those actually working in private schools

Yes, please see the article I just posted.

This policy is starting to kill off multiple small prep and community schools in that help children with special needs, like Dowdham Prep and Alton School (Convent).

It's not the Etons and Winchesters that will be hurt by it. It's the little guys.

Charging £18,000 per year. That's 140% higher than state school funding. And higher than average for private schools.

Alton School said in a statement: This proposal is based on a continued decline in pupil numbers, to the extent that the school has now become unviable

oh

Indeed. a 20% price shock on top of a cost of living crisis (the GFC was responsible for 30,000 pupils leaving private education and 30 schools closing), is not good news.

As someone who doesn't have kids and already pays taxes to educate other people's kids, I quite like it when parents reduce the tax burden on me by paying for their own kids.

Far fewer will be doing so next year.

The IFS has calculated that VAT on private schools will result in "a net gain to the public finances of £1.3–1.5 billion per year in the medium to long run":
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/2023-07/IFS-Report-R263-Tax-private-school-fees-and-state-school-spending.pdf

That was in July 2023 and before the policy became inevitable and immediate and the live consequences of this policy are now coming into sharp focus as reality kicks in and private schools see declining numbers for September term onwards

As I have said before the actual cost in children having to join the state sector and lost teaching jobs will be available in September and I genuinely expect labour to be shocked at the outcome

You think the IFS estimate is completely wrong?

Yes.

That's not based on any expertise in tax but it *is* based on working with around 20 private schools in various consultancy and tutoring roles.

And can you point to an alternative estimate that you think is nearer to the mark?

I can point to the false assumptions they're making on retention. As several others already have on this thread. That's all I really need to show their estimates are rubbish.

As for alternatives, with any policy it would be at best guesswork. However, I would say there's a realistic chance that it would lead to greater expenditure on extra students in the state sector than it will raise in additional revenue.

Northern_Al said:

I wrote a long post about the private school debate a few days ago, so will resist repeating it. But I'd like to reinforce three points from it:

1. I find it offensive that many of the private school advocates are so sneeringly contemptuous about a 'state education'. Many of us are very proud of our comprehensive schools and the excellent academic and social education they provided.
2. There's a good number of private schools that offer a pretty poor quality of education, but the parents are seemingly unaware of it.
3. I find it grossly offensive that those who do not sent their kids to private schools, either because they can't afford it or prefer the state sector, are said to be lacking in aspiration for their kids. Were my parents still alive, they'd be fuming at this suggestion.