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What bloody man is that! Stands Scotland where it did? – politicalbetting.com

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  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,119
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,285
    Ballot Box Scotland
    @BallotBoxScot
    Projecting YouGov 26-29 Apr into seats (changes vs 25 Mar - 2 Apr / vs 2021):

    SNP ~ 47 (+3 / -17)
    Labour ~ 39 (-3 / +17)
    Conservative ~ 23 (+1 / -8)
    Green ~ 10 (nc / +2)
    Lib Dem ~ 10 (nc / +6)
    Reform UK ~ 0 (-1 / nc)

    A horribly fragmented parliament on those YouGov numbers. If the Greens decided to support the SNP, Sarwar would need the SCONS to vote for him to become FM.
    I'm not really sure UK Labour or Starmer would want a Holyrood election before the GE if you ended up with Holyrood like this.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Leon said:

    Fuck it. Oysters again

    Consistently good in Brittany in my (considerable) experience. And good value.
  • ScarpiaScarpia Posts: 67

    Leon said:

    megasaur said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    Othello is bloody good. Midsummer Night’s Dream is enchanting. Romeo and Juliet is a ridiculously strong story. Henry V is genuinely stirring. Richard III is stuffed with great moments

    Hamlet and Macbeth are titanic

    The only time I’ve cried at a Shakespeare play was Nicol Williamson playing Hamlet at the Roundhouse. It was a famous production in 1969 - I didn’t see it THERE. I was a tiny tot

    But I’ve watched it on video since. Oh my days

    http://everybodysreviewing.blogspot.com/2020/08/review-by-robert-richardson-of-hamlet.html
    I have seen Macbeth in the open air under the walls of Cawdor castle. Micro production with 3 or 4 actors doing all parts. What sticks in my mind is the witches scenes where 3 of them sat round the cauldron and the 4th was concealed by the stage except for his hands in orange washing up gloves which he wiggled under the cauldron, as flames.
    Literally the first time I ever saw Macbeth was live at the Globe - where it would have been first enacted back in Shakespeare’s day. I had no idea it was that good. It is that good. So many superb lines. Genius

    Incidentally I am reading (and listening to, as I drive) a brilliant biography of Napoleon by Adam Zamoyski. Much better than the hagiographic snooze fest by Andrew Roberts

    I’ve learned that Napoleon was accused of incestuously coupling with his sisters (with some evidence…)

    Also that his name for Josephine’s noo-noo was “your little rascal”

    And also that he was mildly obsessed with British poetry. Especially Ossian - he was insane for Ossian - and also Othello. He could quote large chunks of Othello (presumably in French)
    My first MacBeth was a school trip. Albert Finney. My abiding memory is of some of the lads lobbing pork pies from the gallery into the stalls during lights out.

    Best ever film version - Kurosawa's Throne of Blood. Toshiro Mifune (Macbeth character) in the film looks a bit like H Useless.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912

    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
    We are all just trying to be as well informed and on the ball as you...

    I would be amazed if he ran for leader rather than took it on as temporary caretaker. The only motive for the former would be to take the hit for electoral defeat and leave a cleanish sheet for his successor, and I don't think even he's that selfless.

    Contra Unionist sneering he's quite popular in the party and seen as honourable so would work as a calming caretaker. I believe his wife has MS so I guess he would be doing a lot of consulting with her before taking on all the shite that goes with being even a temporary leader.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,460
    edited April 29

    Ballot Box Scotland
    @BallotBoxScot
    Projecting YouGov 26-29 Apr into seats (changes vs 25 Mar - 2 Apr / vs 2021):

    SNP ~ 47 (+3 / -17)
    Labour ~ 39 (-3 / +17)
    Conservative ~ 23 (+1 / -8)
    Green ~ 10 (nc / +2)
    Lib Dem ~ 10 (nc / +6)
    Reform UK ~ 0 (-1 / nc)

    A horribly fragmented parliament on those YouGov numbers. If the Greens decided to support the SNP, Sarwar would need the SCONS to vote for him to become FM.
    I'm not really sure UK Labour or Starmer would want a Holyrood election before the GE if you ended up with Holyrood like this.

    A fag end SNP minority government propped up by the SCons who would also block indyref2 would probably suit SLab and Starmer fine
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    May Tempests rage about you.
    "Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!"
    Democratic slogan (one anyway) for 2024 IF Donald Trump selects Kristi Noem as VP running mate.

    Though it's true since WW2, it's often been role for side-kick on POTUS ticket, to be the political-partisan attack dog, allowing presidential candidate to appear (at least by contrast) more "presidential'.

    Richard Nixon did this for Dwight Eisenhower in 1952 & 1956; Spiro Agnew did same for RN in 1968 & 1972. After Watergate, in 1976 unelected incumbent Pres. Gerald Ford named Bob Dole as HIS (prospective) VP attack dog (instead of his actual also unelected VP Nelson Rockefeller who was anathema to hard-core GOPers of that era). In 1988 & 1992, Dan Quayle attempted the role for George Bush the Elder, but with limited success due to DQ's permanent status as a national joke.

    Rather ironically, when Bob Dole (NOT a joke) ran for POTUS versus Bill Clinton in 1996, his VP pick, Jack Kemp, proved to be a friendly puppy by comparison, who beyond reasonably progressive record on race relations if not civil rights per se, combined with hard-conservative views for that day, added little to the ticket.

    Similar situation with Tim Kaine as VP with Hillary Clinton in 2016. Not exactly sure what he brought to the party, but he was definitely NOT gnawing away Trump/Pence's ankles or underbelly.

    Democratic POTSUS candidates have tended NOT to unleash their VPs as dogs of war. More typically they are ticket balancers and/or regional-demographic appealers. For example

    > John Sparkman 1952, Estes Kefauver 1956, Lyndon Johnson 1960, Lloyd Bentsen 1988 were Southerners and (except for Kefauver) considered more conservative than the Northerner top of the ticket;

    > Though Lloyd Bentsen DID puncture Dan Quayles balloon permanently, when he noted that "I knew Jack Kennedy, and served with Jack Kennedy - sir, you are no Jack Kennedy". One of THE Great Burns of US political history;

    > In 1976 & 1980 Jimmy Carter reversed the regional-ideological dynamic, by picking Walter Mondale, a Northern liberal to balance HIS ticket: "Grits & Fritz"; Al Gore tried to do something similar by selecting Northerner Joe Liebeman for VP, who as first Jewish major-party candidate added that luster to the ticket.

    Other various example of other POTUS-VP ticket dynamics but have to get to my day job!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
    We are all just trying to be as well informed and on the ball as you...

    I would be amazed if he ran for leader rather than took it on as temporary caretaker. The only motive for the former would be to take the hit for electoral defeat and leave a cleanish sheet for his successor, and I don't think even he's that selfless.

    Contra Unionist sneering he's quite popular in the party and seen as honourable so would work as a calming caretaker. I believe his wife has MS so I guess he would be doing a lot of consulting with her before taking on all the shite that goes with being even a temporary leader.

    You can get medication for that premature thing

    Scott_xP Posts: 33,024
    8:40AM
    And he's gone...
    Flag Quote · Like
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,867
    HYUFD said:

    Not sure what the point of Yousaf resigning is, unless his successor can restart a coalition government with the Greens or do a deal with Alba he still can't govern. Swinney may be the safest pair of hands but his last stint as SNP leader was hardly glorious

    He resigned because he was going to lose
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,402

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,266

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    She’d play Sunak to Useless’s Truss.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
    We are all just trying to be as well informed and on the ball as you...

    I would be amazed if he ran for leader rather than took it on as temporary caretaker. The only motive for the former would be to take the hit for electoral defeat and leave a cleanish sheet for his successor, and I don't think even he's that selfless.

    Contra Unionist sneering he's quite popular in the party and seen as honourable so would work as a calming caretaker. I believe his wife has MS so I guess he would be doing a lot of consulting with her before taking on all the shite that goes with being even a temporary leader.

    You can get medication for that premature thing

    Scott_xP Posts: 33,024
    8:40AM
    And he's gone...
    Flag Quote · Like
    You think he wasn't gone at 8:40 this morning?

    Fuck, you really are out of touch.

    They'll be asking you to hand in your flag next...
  • legatuslegatus Posts: 126

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.
    But the Mayoral results for the Tories in both Teeside and West Midlands may turn out better than 2017!!
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,197
    Andy_JS said:

    "When in July 2000 Alex Salmond made the surprise announcement that he was stepping down as the SNP's leader after a decade in the job, heavy betting pointed to Swinney as his preferred successor. At the Inverness SNP conference that September, he was elected leader by 67% of the votes to fundamentalist Alex Neil's 33%, and in his victory speech said: "I stand here as the first leader in the history of the SNP who has a hard headed opportunity to lead our party into government and our country on to independence.""

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/25/alexsalmond

    The adage 'learned nothing and forgotten nothing' springs to mind.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    Scarpia said:

    Leon said:

    megasaur said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    Othello is bloody good. Midsummer Night’s Dream is enchanting. Romeo and Juliet is a ridiculously strong story. Henry V is genuinely stirring. Richard III is stuffed with great moments

    Hamlet and Macbeth are titanic

    The only time I’ve cried at a Shakespeare play was Nicol Williamson playing Hamlet at the Roundhouse. It was a famous production in 1969 - I didn’t see it THERE. I was a tiny tot

    But I’ve watched it on video since. Oh my days

    http://everybodysreviewing.blogspot.com/2020/08/review-by-robert-richardson-of-hamlet.html
    I have seen Macbeth in the open air under the walls of Cawdor castle. Micro production with 3 or 4 actors doing all parts. What sticks in my mind is the witches scenes where 3 of them sat round the cauldron and the 4th was concealed by the stage except for his hands in orange washing up gloves which he wiggled under the cauldron, as flames.
    Literally the first time I ever saw Macbeth was live at the Globe - where it would have been first enacted back in Shakespeare’s day. I had no idea it was that good. It is that good. So many superb lines. Genius

    Incidentally I am reading (and listening to, as I drive) a brilliant biography of Napoleon by Adam Zamoyski. Much better than the hagiographic snooze fest by Andrew Roberts

    I’ve learned that Napoleon was accused of incestuously coupling with his sisters (with some evidence…)

    Also that his name for Josephine’s noo-noo was “your little rascal”

    And also that he was mildly obsessed with British poetry. Especially Ossian - he was insane for Ossian - and also Othello. He could quote large chunks of Othello (presumably in French)
    My first MacBeth was a school trip. Albert Finney. My abiding memory is of some of the lads lobbing pork pies from the gallery into the stalls during lights out.
    Best ever film version - Kurosawa's Throne of Blood. Toshiro Mifune (Macbeth character) in the film looks a bit like H Useless.
    Worst version I saw (also a school trip) was the legendary Peter O’Toole production.
    https://thecritic.co.uk/the-roaring-boy-macbeth/

    Contrary to the linked article, Peter did not do the soliloquies “brilliantly”. I remember being deeply embarrassed on his behalf.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,839
    legatus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.
    But the Mayoral results for the Tories in both Teeside and West Midlands may turn out better than 2017!!
    This week’s results are going to more than usually fascinating. I am expecting the Tories to outperform (admittedly extremely low) expectations, because of the putative Reform voters arriving at the polling station and realising they don’t have a candidate.

    Also expecting Lib Dem and Green to outperform, as per usual, and Labour to appear to have disappointing night because of poor expectation management.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    edited April 29
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
    We are all just trying to be as well informed and on the ball as you...

    I would be amazed if he ran for leader rather than took it on as temporary caretaker. The only motive for the former would be to take the hit for electoral defeat and leave a cleanish sheet for his successor, and I don't think even he's that selfless.

    Contra Unionist sneering he's quite popular in the party and seen as honourable so would work as a calming caretaker. I believe his wife has MS so I guess he would be doing a lot of consulting with her before taking on all the shite that goes with being even a temporary leader.

    You can get medication for that premature thing

    Scott_xP Posts: 33,024
    8:40AM
    And he's gone...
    Flag Quote · Like
    You think he wasn't gone at 8:40 this morning?

    Fuck, you really are out of touch.

    They'll be asking you to hand in your flag next...
    Ah, you were just making a general point, albeit in your excitable 'I've just read a tweet!' way?

    You read a tweet which you misunderstood and you..er..spurted.

    You could always try 'this has never happened to me before'.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912

    Ah, you were just making a general point

    I was making the point at 8:40 AM that his career as FM was over.

    Which part of that are you struggling with?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,871
    I want to thank @boulay for pointing me to Dinan. What a magical place

    And unlike many insta-perfect French towns, not overrun with tourists

    On a perfect spring evening - cloudless skies - I just walked down the Rue de Jerzual, which might be one of the prettiest streets in the world. All 15th century half timbered houses and medieval gates. For about 5 minutes I was entirely alone. The only person on that road. And all I could hear was luscious birdsong


  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,678
    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    "Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    algarkirk said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
    She didn't lose to Yousaf, she lost to Nicola and her husband and their iron grip on the party at that time. That grip is now gone.

    Like you I fundamentally oppose the independence policy but I still rate her highly. She seems competent in a sort of old fashioned way that we haven't seen for a while. I'd like to try competence, after all we have tried everything else.

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them. Unless you can get one of the Unionist parties to play and I don't see how she sells that to her party. The Greens at least pretend to be for independence.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741
    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    I've never seen them live. Would they be in the Hollow Crown that @TSE was mentioning earlier?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912
    DavidL said:

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them.

    Well, stable, but batshit.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,436
    Leon said:

    I want to thank @boulay for pointing me to Dinan. What a magical place

    And unlike many insta-perfect French towns, not overrun with tourists

    On a perfect spring evening - cloudless skies - I just walked down the Rue de Jerzual, which might be one of the prettiest streets in the world. All 15th century half timbered houses and medieval gates. For about 5 minutes I was entirely alone. The only person on that road. And all I could hear was luscious birdsong


    Glad you are enjoying it. It’s great on warm summer evenings too and never felt too full of tourists. The rue de la Cordonnerie is a cobbled street with plenty of bars down it and suitably lively on August evenings. It’s jokingly called “la rue de la soif” which is effectively “the road of thirst” for obvious reasons.


  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912

    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    "Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
    And Humza the Numpty...
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    "Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
    Sad? Dead is just the way we Irish like OUR kings best!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,385
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    I've never seen them live. Would they be in the Hollow Crown that @TSE was mentioning earlier?
    Yes.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,846
    Leon said:

    I want to thank @boulay for pointing me to Dinan. What a magical place

    And unlike many insta-perfect French towns, not overrun with tourists

    On a perfect spring evening - cloudless skies - I just walked down the Rue de Jerzual, which might be one of the prettiest streets in the world. All 15th century half timbered houses and medieval gates. For about 5 minutes I was entirely alone. The only person on that road. And all I could hear was luscious birdsong


    Another lovely place I walked to and stayed in last year

    Are you, really slowly, stalking me?!

    I bet that Tom Knox fella isn't far behind either..
  • legatuslegatus Posts: 126
    On a serious personal point, may I ask whether anyone has had experience of a cardiac Angiogram? I am scheduled to have this procedure on May 24th.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,678
    Taz said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    She’d play Sunak to Useless’s Truss.
    "I am constant as the Northern Star."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    edited April 29
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    Pretty meh YouGov for SLAB given the circumstances.

    Latest Westminster voting intention (Scotland)

    Lab: 34% (+1 from 2 Apr)
    SNP: 33% (+2)
    Con: 14% (=)
    Lib Dem: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 5% (-2)
    Green: 4% (-1)
    Other: 2% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (constituency)

    SNP: 36% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Lab: 32% (=)
    Con: 16% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 9% (=)
    Green: 3% (-1)
    Other: 4% (-1)

    Latest Holyrood voting intention (regional)
    SNP: 31% (+2 from 2 Apr)
    Labour: 28% (-1)
    Conservative: 17% (+1)
    Lib Dem: 8% (=)
    Green: 8% (-1)
    Reform UK: 3% (-2)
    Alba: 3% (=)
    Fieldwork conducted 26-29 Apr, all prior to Yousaf's resignation

    Surely Humza was such a disaster (©PB Scotchperts) the SNP numbers can only go up?

    But anyway, lol.
    Scotchperts is desperately bad, but maybe that was your aim. If so, bravo
    I'm saving Scotchspurts for your more excitable Caledonian moments.
    We are all just trying to be as well informed and on the ball as you...

    I would be amazed if he ran for leader rather than took it on as temporary caretaker. The only motive for the former would be to take the hit for electoral defeat and leave a cleanish sheet for his successor, and I don't think even he's that selfless.

    Contra Unionist sneering he's quite popular in the party and seen as honourable so would work as a calming caretaker. I believe his wife has MS so I guess he would be doing a lot of consulting with her before taking on all the shite that goes with being even a temporary leader.

    You can get medication for that premature thing

    Scott_xP Posts: 33,024
    8:40AM
    And he's gone...
    Flag Quote · Like
    You think he wasn't gone at 8:40 this morning?

    Fuck, you really are out of touch.

    They'll be asking you to hand in your flag next...
    I read your post at 8.40 and listened to Sky and the BBC saying it was expected and a news conference was due at 12noon

    It was frankly a misleading post at the time you made it
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,374
    edited April 29
    On a different note to Brittany and Spain, it's 10-9 in both snooker matches. 😊

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/snooker/live/c72pjl980ryt
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    edited April 29

    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    "Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
    That reminds me of seeing Alan Howard perform Richard II, and Richard III, on the same day at the RSC.
    He was best in the first role (though great in both); David Suchet was Bolingbroke.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,678

    Leon said:

    I want to thank @boulay for pointing me to Dinan. What a magical place

    And unlike many insta-perfect French towns, not overrun with tourists

    On a perfect spring evening - cloudless skies - I just walked down the Rue de Jerzual, which might be one of the prettiest streets in the world. All 15th century half timbered houses and medieval gates. For about 5 minutes I was entirely alone. The only person on that road. And all I could hear was luscious birdsong


    Another lovely place I walked to and stayed in last year

    Are you, really slowly, stalking me?!

    I bet that Tom Knox fella isn't far behind either..
    "Parting is such sweet sorrow."
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    edited April 29
    Scott_xP said:

    Ah, you were just making a general point

    I was making the point at 8:40 AM that his career as FM was over.

    Which part of that are you struggling with?
    In the context and time no you were not - you said 'and he's gone' which did not happen until 12 noon
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited April 29

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    Come, you spirits that tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here and fill me from the crown to the toe top-full of direst cruelty!

    Adding my own subtle Lady Macbeth gender critical reference. Which is entirely on topic because apparently the SNP is in the mess it is because of its woke gender whatever.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,678

    Scott_xP said:

    Ah, you were just making a general point

    I was making the point at 8:40 AM that his career as FM was over.

    Which part of that are you struggling with?
    In the context and time no you were not - you said 'and he's gone' which did not happen until 12 noon
    "We have heard the chimes at 8.40am."
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    I think he is doomed
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912

    Scott_xP said:

    Ah, you were just making a general point

    I was making the point at 8:40 AM that his career as FM was over.

    Which part of that are you struggling with?
    In the context and time no you were not - you said 'and he's gone' which did not happen until 12 noon
    You think at 8:40 he was going to fight on, fight on to win?

    Wow, nearly as out of touch as @Theuniondivvie
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,852
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
    She didn't lose to Yousaf, she lost to Nicola and her husband and their iron grip on the party at that time. That grip is now gone.

    Like you I fundamentally oppose the independence policy but I still rate her highly. She seems competent in a sort of old fashioned way that we haven't seen for a while. I'd like to try competence, after all we have tried everything else.

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them. Unless you can get one of the Unionist parties to play and I don't see how she sells that to her party. The Greens at least pretend to be for independence.
    Crystal clear? Have things changed in the last couple of days?

    'She wrote: "Let us get away from the language of who is and who is not acceptable to work with. For example, well before and during the Bute House Agreement, Patrick Harvie and I worked together – that is no secret. The question therefore isn’t whether my world is big enough to embrace the Greens – it is. The question is whether their world is big enough to embrace me. I hope and believe it is."'

    https://tinyurl.com/2s3yyprj
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Ah, you were just making a general point

    I was making the point at 8:40 AM that his career as FM was over.

    Which part of that are you struggling with?
    In the context and time no you were not - you said 'and he's gone' which did not happen until 12 noon
    You think at 8:40 he was going to fight on, fight on to win?

    Wow, nearly as out of touch as @Theuniondivvie
    No - it was your misleading language that said 'he was gone' meaning at 8.40am he had resigned when he had not

  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,846
    Does anyone else enjoy seeing Scott back on Scotland rather than Brexit, to remind us that he's in fact not a monomaniac?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640

    Ballot Box Scotland
    @BallotBoxScot
    Projecting YouGov 26-29 Apr into seats (changes vs 25 Mar - 2 Apr / vs 2021):

    SNP ~ 47 (+3 / -17)
    Labour ~ 39 (-3 / +17)
    Conservative ~ 23 (+1 / -8)
    Green ~ 10 (nc / +2)
    Lib Dem ~ 10 (nc / +6)
    Reform UK ~ 0 (-1 / nc)

    A horribly fragmented parliament on those YouGov numbers. If the Greens decided to support the SNP, Sarwar would need the SCONS to vote for him to become FM.
    I'm not really sure UK Labour or Starmer would want a Holyrood election before the GE if you ended up with Holyrood like this.

    Tory majority nailed on (Red plus Blue plus Forbes Caucus)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,374
    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,716
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    And the greatest of the great Shakespeare plays are the Henry IV duo.

    I've never seen them live. Would they be in the Hollow Crown that @TSE was mentioning earlier?
    Components of it, but it’s a bit of an artificial construct:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hollow_Crown_(TV_series)

    The TV series was a bit pants. Simon Russell Beale (a fine actor) just didn’t work as Falstaff nor Hiddleston as Hal, I think.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    legatus said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Steven_Swinford
    Breaking:

    Yougov poll suggests there is a world in which Tories could hold *both* West Midlands and Tees Valley mayoralties - but it is very, very tight

    Houchen is narrowly ahead in Tees Valley

    Street is only just ahead in West Mids but Yougov says it's within margin of error too close to call

    Tees Valley (poll of 924 voters)

    Ben Houchen, Tory - 51
    Chris McEwan, Labour - 44
    Simon Thorley, Lib Dem - 5

    West Midlands (poll of 1495 voters)
    Andy Street, Tory - 41
    Richard Parker, Labour - 39
    Sunny Virk, Lib Dem - 2

    For the avoidance of doubt, the LibDem figures are not in percentage points, they are the number of people who said they would be voting that way.
    No chance of a joke at the Lib Dems' expense should be wasted, natch.

    But.

    If their vote is that willing to be squeezed in no-hope areas...

    The Conservatives are in for some terrible nights this year.
    But the Mayoral results for the Tories in both Teeside and West Midlands may turn out better than 2017!!
    Can't be right

    Shh 2017 is not allowed to be talked about
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    How does Ed Davey fill his week?

    Is he developing policy, points of view, putting out press releases, lobbying journalists and studios, and just being ignored?

    Or he is not even bothering?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,596
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends!"
    Do I get the feeling you like Henry V?
    I fear he is reciting the whole play, one line per post.

    We need to ignore him and rise above it, we few, we happy few, we band of brothers.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,982
    kle4 said:

    C J Sansom has died.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/29/cj-sansom-author-of-the-shardlake-novels-dies-aged-71

    Dominion is one of my favourite alt-history novels.

    Awesome author. Shardlake, Winter in Madrid, Dominion, have read them all.

    Given his anti SNP tirade included, for seemingly no reason, at the end of Dominion, a Scottish thread header seems appropriate.
    He donated £100k to the No campaign in the Sindyref - he was a dyed in the wool unionist.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    Does anyone else enjoy seeing Scott back on Scotland rather than Brexit, to remind us that he's in fact not a monomaniac?

    Yes, but the common theme here is that he's maniac about whatever he's "on".

    He wasn't exactly a ray of sunshine even when he just had Miliband and Salmond to go at, even though I basically agreed with him.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640

    Leon said:

    I want to thank @boulay for pointing me to Dinan. What a magical place

    And unlike many insta-perfect French towns, not overrun with tourists

    On a perfect spring evening - cloudless skies - I just walked down the Rue de Jerzual, which might be one of the prettiest streets in the world. All 15th century half timbered houses and medieval gates. For about 5 minutes I was entirely alone. The only person on that road. And all I could hear was luscious birdsong


    Another lovely place I walked to and stayed in last year

    Are you, really slowly, stalking me?!

    I bet that Tom Knox fella isn't far behind either..
    "Parting is such sweet sorrow."
    Farting is such not so sweet sorrow.

    Pasting is so Rachel Reeves
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,982

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    Tudor propagandist favoured by Colonial power supporter shock.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited April 29
    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
    She didn't lose to Yousaf, she lost to Nicola and her husband and their iron grip on the party at that time. That grip is now gone.

    Like you I fundamentally oppose the independence policy but I still rate her highly. She seems competent in a sort of old fashioned way that we haven't seen for a while. I'd like to try competence, after all we have tried everything else.

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them. Unless you can get one of the Unionist parties to play and I don't see how she sells that to her party. The Greens at least pretend to be for independence.
    Forbes and the Greens will come to an understanding if both decide they need each other.

    If Forbes is as smart as you say she is she won't repeat precisely the same unforced error that brought Yousaf down literally hours ago. The Greens are in a powerful position and can name their price. That looks like a basis for a deal.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,985
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    megasaur said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    Othello is bloody good. Midsummer Night’s Dream is enchanting. Romeo and Juliet is a ridiculously strong story. Henry V is genuinely stirring. Richard III is stuffed with great moments

    Hamlet and Macbeth are titanic

    The only time I’ve cried at a Shakespeare play was Nicol Williamson playing Hamlet at the Roundhouse. It was a famous production in 1969 - I didn’t see it THERE. I was a tiny tot

    But I’ve watched it on video since. Oh my days

    http://everybodysreviewing.blogspot.com/2020/08/review-by-robert-richardson-of-hamlet.html
    I have seen Macbeth in the open air under the walls of Cawdor castle. Micro production with 3 or 4 actors doing all parts. What sticks in my mind is the witches scenes where 3 of them sat round the cauldron and the 4th was concealed by the stage except for his hands in orange washing up gloves which he wiggled under the cauldron, as flames.
    Literally the first time I ever saw Macbeth was live at the Globe - where it would have been first enacted back in Shakespeare’s day. I had no idea it was that good. It is that good. So many superb lines. Genius

    Incidentally I am reading (and listening to, as I drive) a brilliant biography of Napoleon by Adam Zamoyski. Much better than the hagiographic snooze fest by Andrew Roberts

    I’ve learned that Napoleon was accused of incestuously coupling with his sisters (with some evidence…)

    Also that his name for Josephine’s noo-noo was “your little rascal”

    And also that he was mildly obsessed with British poetry. Especially Ossian - he was insane for Ossian - and also Othello. He could quote large chunks of Othello (presumably in French)
    I've read that biography. Certainly came across as a more nuanced take on Napoleon that we often get.
    He’s either a warrior hero or a proto-Hitler. This seems to be an attempt to judge him in the round. It’s also full of salacious gossip, which was sadly lacking from Roberts’ effort - which I abandoned half way through. Also endless detailed discourse about battles and enfilades and flanking movements gets old very fast.
    I also got bored of Andrew Robert's Napolean and failed to finish it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,596
    Of memorable Shakespeare performances I will give a shout to the Handlebards (https://www.handlebards.com) who tour the country every summer on bicycles giving four person outdoor performances of the classics. Their comedic slant on Hamlet from a few years ago was outrageously good.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    Aahhhhh!!

    Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,912
    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,574

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    Aahhhhh!!

    Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends!
    Roooooooaaaaaaaaaaarghunaccustomed as I am to public speaking....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,385
    sarissa said:

    kle4 said:

    C J Sansom has died.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/29/cj-sansom-author-of-the-shardlake-novels-dies-aged-71

    Dominion is one of my favourite alt-history novels.

    Awesome author. Shardlake, Winter in Madrid, Dominion, have read them all.

    Given his anti SNP tirade included, for seemingly no reason, at the end of Dominion, a Scottish thread header seems appropriate.
    He donated £100k to the No campaign in the Sindyref - he was a dyed in the wool unionist.
    A true patriot.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,132
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    megasaur said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    Othello is bloody good. Midsummer Night’s Dream is enchanting. Romeo and Juliet is a ridiculously strong story. Henry V is genuinely stirring. Richard III is stuffed with great moments

    Hamlet and Macbeth are titanic

    The only time I’ve cried at a Shakespeare play was Nicol Williamson playing Hamlet at the Roundhouse. It was a famous production in 1969 - I didn’t see it THERE. I was a tiny tot

    But I’ve watched it on video since. Oh my days

    http://everybodysreviewing.blogspot.com/2020/08/review-by-robert-richardson-of-hamlet.html
    I have seen Macbeth in the open air under the walls of Cawdor castle. Micro production with 3 or 4 actors doing all parts. What sticks in my mind is the witches scenes where 3 of them sat round the cauldron and the 4th was concealed by the stage except for his hands in orange washing up gloves which he wiggled under the cauldron, as flames.
    Literally the first time I ever saw Macbeth was live at the Globe - where it would have been first enacted back in Shakespeare’s day. I had no idea it was that good. It is that good. So many superb lines. Genius

    Incidentally I am reading (and listening to, as I drive) a brilliant biography of Napoleon by Adam Zamoyski. Much better than the hagiographic snooze fest by Andrew Roberts

    I’ve learned that Napoleon was accused of incestuously coupling with his sisters (with some evidence…)

    Also that his name for Josephine’s noo-noo was “your little rascal”

    And also that he was mildly obsessed with British poetry. Especially Ossian - he was insane for Ossian - and also Othello. He could quote large chunks of Othello (presumably in French)
    I've read that biography. Certainly came across as a more nuanced take on Napoleon that we often get.
    He’s either a warrior hero or a proto-Hitler. This seems to be an attempt to judge him in the round. It’s also full of salacious gossip, which was sadly lacking from Roberts’ effort - which I abandoned half way through. Also endless detailed discourse about battles and enfilades and flanking movements gets old very fast.
    I also got bored of Andrew Robert's Napolean and failed to finish it.
    I don't know why Roberts decided to die in ditch over trying to make him out to be a great man. His George III was much better and much more convincing.

    Maybe he liked the way Napoleon laid the smack down. Or maybe he just wanted to differentiate himself in the English language market.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,226
    edited April 29

    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    "Once more unto the breach, dear friends!"
    Do I get the feeling you like Henry V?
    I fear he is reciting the whole play, one line per post.

    We need to ignore him and rise above it, we few, we happy few, we band of brothers.
    Ye shall all forget.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


    He’s got a point. Same applies to Labour. The basis of the constitution rests on the PM having the confidence of the House. Not the confidence of those who stump up however much it costs to join the relevant party.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


    I think he is absolutely right, both in the idea that the vote should remain with the MPs and that he will never get that change through because of the members' power
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,978
    Off topic, but you may like this detail about Doug Burgum:
    "He attended North Dakota State University (NDSU) to earn his undergraduate degree in 1978. During his senior year at NDSU, he applied to the Stanford Graduate School of Business. He also started a chimney-sweeping business. "The newspaper wrote a story about me as a chimney sweep", he later recalled; it "ran a photo of me sitting on top of an icy chimney in below-freezing weather in Fargo. The story made the AP wire service. I was later told it caused quite a stir in the Stanford admissions office: 'Hey, there's a chimney sweep from North Dakota who's applied."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Burgum

    He went on to become a very successful businessman and Microsoft executive, before becoming North Dakota governor.:
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,294
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


    This is the Tory’s “Clause 4”.
    Fixing this disastrous set up (thank you, William Hague) is a pre-requisite for letting them back into power, maybe some time in the 2030s.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,982

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    No- as soon as the vacancy arose, the SNP hierarchy (P Murrell) tore up the rule book, restricted the campaign spending to pocket money and curtailed hustings to his self selected acolytes to ensure HY won. Even then it was a close run thing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    Another SKS U turn tomorrow
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,846
    How much would it cost the government to send a hundred immigrants to Ireland and pretend they were afraid of Rwanda?

    If they have done that, it seems far more cost effective than the Rwanda plan itself
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,640
    sarissa said:

    kle4 said:

    C J Sansom has died.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/apr/29/cj-sansom-author-of-the-shardlake-novels-dies-aged-71

    Dominion is one of my favourite alt-history novels.

    Awesome author. Shardlake, Winter in Madrid, Dominion, have read them all.

    Given his anti SNP tirade included, for seemingly no reason, at the end of Dominion, a Scottish thread header seems appropriate.
    He donated £100k to the No campaign in the Sindyref - he was a dyed in the wool unionist.
    Scott?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


    I suspect Sir Graham has a certain someone in mind.


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,750
    a

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    megasaur said:

    Leon said:

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    All things considered, Macbeth is my favourite Shakespeare play.

    With the possible exception of Hamlet. And Romeo and Juliet of course...
    Hamlet for me.
    Othello is bloody good. Midsummer Night’s Dream is enchanting. Romeo and Juliet is a ridiculously strong story. Henry V is genuinely stirring. Richard III is stuffed with great moments

    Hamlet and Macbeth are titanic

    The only time I’ve cried at a Shakespeare play was Nicol Williamson playing Hamlet at the Roundhouse. It was a famous production in 1969 - I didn’t see it THERE. I was a tiny tot

    But I’ve watched it on video since. Oh my days

    http://everybodysreviewing.blogspot.com/2020/08/review-by-robert-richardson-of-hamlet.html
    I have seen Macbeth in the open air under the walls of Cawdor castle. Micro production with 3 or 4 actors doing all parts. What sticks in my mind is the witches scenes where 3 of them sat round the cauldron and the 4th was concealed by the stage except for his hands in orange washing up gloves which he wiggled under the cauldron, as flames.
    Literally the first time I ever saw Macbeth was live at the Globe - where it would have been first enacted back in Shakespeare’s day. I had no idea it was that good. It is that good. So many superb lines. Genius

    Incidentally I am reading (and listening to, as I drive) a brilliant biography of Napoleon by Adam Zamoyski. Much better than the hagiographic snooze fest by Andrew Roberts

    I’ve learned that Napoleon was accused of incestuously coupling with his sisters (with some evidence…)

    Also that his name for Josephine’s noo-noo was “your little rascal”

    And also that he was mildly obsessed with British poetry. Especially Ossian - he was insane for Ossian - and also Othello. He could quote large chunks of Othello (presumably in French)
    I've read that biography. Certainly came across as a more nuanced take on Napoleon that we often get.
    He’s either a warrior hero or a proto-Hitler. This seems to be an attempt to judge him in the round. It’s also full of salacious gossip, which was sadly lacking from Roberts’ effort - which I abandoned half way through. Also endless detailed discourse about battles and enfilades and flanking movements gets old very fast.
    I also got bored of Andrew Robert's Napolean and failed to finish it.
    I don't know why Roberts decided to die in ditch over trying to make him out to be a great man. His George III was much better and much more convincing.

    Maybe he liked the way Napoleon laid the smack down. Or maybe he just wanted to differentiate himself in the English language market.
    There's plenty of hagiographies of Napoleon in English. In fact the rarest thing seems to be a full blooded condemnation. And there is plenty to condemn.

    The recent film was rubbish and weird - what was going on there?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    Another SKS U turn tomorrow
    Interesting. Do you have a source for that?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,374
    Scott_xP said:

    @benrileysmith

    Exclusive

    Sir Graham Brady has said Tory members should be stripped of their ability to pick the next leader when the party is in government

    A leaked recording reveals the 1922 chairman said last week that the current setup is “crazy”.


    Less democracy is a good thing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,266
    This is the level of small minded, petty, vindictiveness I can only admire.

    https://x.com/ryandilks1/status/1784889778980163785?s=61
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,894
    Andy_JS said:

    "Andrew Neil
    @afneil

    Devolution might not have done much for ordinary Scots but it’s been a dripping roast for Scotland’s political elite. Take Humza Yousaf. He was First Minister for 13 months on an annual salary of almost £177,000 — more than the Prime Minister — of which £104,500 was for being FM (the balance was his MSP salary). He is now entitled to half his FM salary — £52,000 a year — FOR LIFE. Plus his MSP salary. Talk about snouts in the trough …"

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1785020332186714367

    Be honest, Andrew. You wouldn't get out of bed for £177,000pa
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Off topic, but you may like this detail about Doug Burgum:
    "He attended North Dakota State University (NDSU) to earn his undergraduate degree in 1978. During his senior year at NDSU, he applied to the Stanford Graduate School of Business. He also started a chimney-sweeping business. "The newspaper wrote a story about me as a chimney sweep", he later recalled; it "ran a photo of me sitting on top of an icy chimney in below-freezing weather in Fargo. The story made the AP wire service. I was later told it caused quite a stir in the Stanford admissions office: 'Hey, there's a chimney sweep from North Dakota who's applied."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Burgum

    He went on to become a very successful businessman and Microsoft executive, before becoming North Dakota governor.:

    What's is Gov Doug Burgum's position on supporting, aiding and abetting efforts by the President and henchpeople, to overthrow the government and Constitution of the United States, in order to overturn the results of a presidential election, past OR future?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,314

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    Why do we need to fly them to Rwanda when we can just bus them to the Irish border? I would even accept Parliament declaring Ireland a safe country.... possibly. We should have this as the basic policy. We could get rid of thousands at a fraction of the cost.

    (I am of course joking, he says rapidly)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a classic example of trying to move a problem without resolving it. Presumably said migrants can enter Ireland from France so we might end up having refugee camps on the Irish border instead of Calais which will presuambly mean we'll have to waste time and resources strengthening that border as migrants use that as another option.

    Perhaps we'll need naval patrols in the Irish Sea to deter those trying to cross from Ireland.

    What is the "plan"? Deterrence presumably but if we get hundreds coming in during the summer from France AND Ireland along with those already here how many are we realistically going to be able to send to Kigali?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    Does anyone else enjoy seeing Scott back on Scotland rather than Brexit, to remind us that he's in fact not a monomaniac?

    Scott mostly doesn't spend his time on here disparaging other PB commentators, so why not?

    And yes, I have broken my own rule not to make personal comments.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,266

    viewcode said:

    @TheScreamingEagles, you are certainly educating us with respect to Shakespeare... :)

    Phew, somebody spotted my two subtle Macbeth references.

    I plan to do other threads with headlines from other Shakespeare plays.

    I love Shakespeare.
    Aahhhhh!!

    Hot potato, orchestra stalls, Puck will make amends!
    Quality 😂👍
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,854
    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
    There was a meeting with the Irish and UK governments today when the UK rejected the idea of accepting returning asylum seekers without a similar agreement with France

    This is not going away, and it is likely to be discussed at EU and French levels and maybe we could see a united attempt by all parties to stop the boats and address the wider issue of asylum seekers and Europe's own border problems
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,741

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
    There was a meeting with the Irish and UK governments today when the UK rejected the idea of accepting returning asylum seekers without a similar agreement with France

    This is not going away, and it is likely to be discussed at EU and French levels and maybe we could see a united attempt by all parties to stop the boats and address the wider issue of asylum seekers and Europe's own border problems
    Am I alone in finding it morbidly funny that those who shout loudest about sending immigrants back to that "safe country" France are also the most indignant that the Irish might want their immigrants to come back here?
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,068

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
    She didn't lose to Yousaf, she lost to Nicola and her husband and their iron grip on the party at that time. That grip is now gone.

    Like you I fundamentally oppose the independence policy but I still rate her highly. She seems competent in a sort of old fashioned way that we haven't seen for a while. I'd like to try competence, after all we have tried everything else.

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them. Unless you can get one of the Unionist parties to play and I don't see how she sells that to her party. The Greens at least pretend to be for independence.
    Crystal clear? Have things changed in the last couple of days?

    'She wrote: "Let us get away from the language of who is and who is not acceptable to work with. For example, well before and during the Bute House Agreement, Patrick Harvie and I worked together – that is no secret. The question therefore isn’t whether my world is big enough to embrace the Greens – it is. The question is whether their world is big enough to embrace me. I hope and believe it is."'

    https://tinyurl.com/2s3yyprj
    Kate Forbes problem may not be the Greens, but large chunks of the SNP.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492
    edited April 29

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    It doesn't seem a credible argument that asylum seekers are so afraid of Rwanda that they are desperate to get to Ireland, yet 500 more are so unbothered by the threat to arrive by small boat over the last weekend, and record arrivals for the first 4 months of 2024 despite the foul weather.

    It doesn't add up.

    Leicester 1 nil up. Looks like we are going up as Champions.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,119
    edited April 29
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a classic example of trying to move a problem without resolving it. Presumably said migrants can enter Ireland from France so we might end up having refugee camps on the Irish border instead of Calais which will presuambly mean we'll have to waste time and resources strengthening that border as migrants use that as another option.

    Perhaps we'll need naval patrols in the Irish Sea to deter those trying to cross from Ireland.

    What is the "plan"? Deterrence presumably but if we get hundreds coming in during the summer from France AND Ireland along with those already here how many are we realistically going to be able to send to Kigali?
    The plan is to wait until we can all point and laugh at Starmer. And say, 'ohh, if only you had kept going with our plan...'

    (There's a bit of selection bias going on here as well. That people moving from the UK to Ireland are pointing out Rwanda fear is probably true and certainly rational. But just because that subset of migrants are mentioning it doesn't tell us about the totality of migrants crossing the channel. (To put it in terms PBers will relate to, it would be like doing an opinion poll based solely on parents picking up children from school.))

    Meanwhile, since the 'Rwanda Is Safe, Whatever You Think' Law passed, 500 migrants have been detected entering the UK, and the weather was pretty grim last week.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
    There was a meeting with the Irish and UK governments today when the UK rejected the idea of accepting returning asylum seekers without a similar agreement with France

    This is not going away, and it is likely to be discussed at EU and French levels and maybe we could see a united attempt by all parties to stop the boats and address the wider issue of asylum seekers and Europe's own border problems
    Yes. I know what was discussed today and nothing came of it save gloating by the usual suspects in blue and no indication that anyone has any constructive solutions. Given the view of the Tories towards any sort of deal with Europe, “the only think the EU understands is pain”, the idea of cooperation from this Government on this is laughable. Sunak wants the Reform votes and cooperation with Johnny Foreigner isn’t on the menu.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,750
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
    There was a meeting with the Irish and UK governments today when the UK rejected the idea of accepting returning asylum seekers without a similar agreement with France

    This is not going away, and it is likely to be discussed at EU and French levels and maybe we could see a united attempt by all parties to stop the boats and address the wider issue of asylum seekers and Europe's own border problems
    Am I alone in finding it morbidly funny that those who shout loudest about sending immigrants back to that "safe country" France are also the most indignant that the Irish might want their immigrants to come back here?
    If you've got the right sense of humour, there's plenty of it on both sides.

    I'm seeing people on Twatter, Reddit etc arguing that declaring countries safe by fiat of the executive is Good For Us, Bad for You. On both sides. Also, shovelling spare refugees around is awesome when it's done by People I Like. Also bigotry against refugees is just terrible. Apart from the odd bit of protesting of hostels etc by My Side.

    I suspect that O'Leary will be flying Rwanda flights. From Dublin.

    Anyone up for my idea to stop the boats?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,837
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a policy designed to “stop the boats”. That’s a bit different to scaring those who’ve already got here to leave for Ireland. Which is what it might have done thus far. In doing so to cause a diplomatic bust up with our neighbours - but I guess that’s also a positive in Tory eyes, even though quite how it helps anyone resolve the issue I have no idea. Doubtless Tories think those Frogs and Paddies will see sense soon and change policy to suit us.
    There was a meeting with the Irish and UK governments today when the UK rejected the idea of accepting returning asylum seekers without a similar agreement with France

    This is not going away, and it is likely to be discussed at EU and French levels and maybe we could see a united attempt by all parties to stop the boats and address the wider issue of asylum seekers and Europe's own border problems
    Am I alone in finding it morbidly funny that those who shout loudest about sending immigrants back to that "safe country" France are also the most indignant that the Irish might want their immigrants to come back here?
    It's reasonable if we want the principle of "sending the migrants back from where they've come", that should apply to any illegal immigrant seeking to enter Ireland from Britain as it would any illegal immigrant seeking to enter Britain from either France or Ireland.

    Expanding this issue to the island of Ireland isn't going to make it go away and indeed sets up more expense and trouble for us (and the Irish).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,492
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a classic example of trying to move a problem without resolving it. Presumably said migrants can enter Ireland from France so we might end up having refugee camps on the Irish border instead of Calais which will presuambly mean we'll have to waste time and resources strengthening that border as migrants use that as another option.

    Perhaps we'll need naval patrols in the Irish Sea to deter those trying to cross from Ireland.

    What is the "plan"? Deterrence presumably but if we get hundreds coming in during the summer from France AND Ireland along with those already here how many are we realistically going to be able to send to Kigali?
    Migrants in France can't get to Ireland by sea, and as Ireland is not in Shengen, their best route has always been via UK.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,728
    Cicero said:

    DavidL said:

    algarkirk said:

    Question for Forbes Fans:

    Given that she's the One Who Lost To Hamza Yousaf, wouldn't the omens for her ascension be pretty poor?

    Not a fan, as I oppose her central, independence, policy, but I think she has colossal potential to be a very good leader. She only just lost to Yousef (52/48) which, given the flak she gets for her unfashionable views on 'personal conscience' matters, was pretty good.

    Ask the question: Who do the Labour and Conservative parties want and not want? I think they both don't want Forbes.

    Ask the question: Who would you have if you want a really broad cross section of Scots to take independence seriously? For that I think she is in the frame.
    She didn't lose to Yousaf, she lost to Nicola and her husband and their iron grip on the party at that time. That grip is now gone.

    Like you I fundamentally oppose the independence policy but I still rate her highly. She seems competent in a sort of old fashioned way that we haven't seen for a while. I'd like to try competence, after all we have tried everything else.

    Her problem is that she has made it crystal clear that she has absolutely no time for the Greens and it is mutual. What these last few days have shown is that in this Parliament at least you cannot have a stable government without them. Unless you can get one of the Unionist parties to play and I don't see how she sells that to her party. The Greens at least pretend to be for independence.
    Crystal clear? Have things changed in the last couple of days?

    'She wrote: "Let us get away from the language of who is and who is not acceptable to work with. For example, well before and during the Bute House Agreement, Patrick Harvie and I worked together – that is no secret. The question therefore isn’t whether my world is big enough to embrace the Greens – it is. The question is whether their world is big enough to embrace me. I hope and believe it is."'

    https://tinyurl.com/2s3yyprj
    Kate Forbes problem may not be the Greens, but large chunks of the SNP.
    I would be quite surprised if she could form a cabinet just now if she did go for it. She's young enough and competent enough to bide her time though - if there is a whiff of the SNP shifting even a few steps to the right she could take her chance.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,750
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a classic example of trying to move a problem without resolving it. Presumably said migrants can enter Ireland from France so we might end up having refugee camps on the Irish border instead of Calais which will presuambly mean we'll have to waste time and resources strengthening that border as migrants use that as another option.

    Perhaps we'll need naval patrols in the Irish Sea to deter those trying to cross from Ireland.

    What is the "plan"? Deterrence presumably but if we get hundreds coming in during the summer from France AND Ireland along with those already here how many are we realistically going to be able to send to Kigali?
    They can't get from France to Ireland, except by going through the UK - you're not going to get a RIB that far.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,406
    edited April 29
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    This is a classic example of trying to move a problem without resolving it. Presumably said migrants can enter Ireland from France so we might end up having refugee camps on the Irish border instead of Calais which will presuambly mean we'll have to waste time and resources strengthening that border as migrants use that as another option.

    Perhaps we'll need naval patrols in the Irish Sea to deter those trying to cross from Ireland.

    What is the "plan"? Deterrence presumably but if we get hundreds coming in during the summer from France AND Ireland along with those already here how many are we realistically going to be able to send to Kigali?
    Migrants in France can't get to Ireland by sea, and as Ireland is not in Shengen, their best route has always been via UK.
    Then Ireland should put pressure on France to 'stop the boats'.

    Something like the Rwanda scheme could well end up as an EU-wide policy, and all the people who are calling it unconscionable will suddenly decide that it's sensible and the right thing to do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,750
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The war of words has intensified between the UK and Irish governments over the possible effects of the Rwanda policy.

    Ireland’s deputy prime minister said people are crossing the border from Northern Ireland as they are afraid of being sent to Rwanda.

    The Irish government is preparing emergency legislation that will allow people to be sent back to the UK.

    But Rishi Sunak said he was “not interested” in any sort of returns deal if the European Union did not allow the UK to send back asylum seekers who had arrived from France."

    https://www.channel4.com/news/how-is-the-uks-rwanda-asylum-plan-impacting-ireland

    I just find this absolutely hilarious.

    Brilliant, in fact, on so many levels.

    Ha.
    ITV news tonight interviewed asylum seekers in Ireland and they were unanimous about their fear of Rwanda

    ITV also said a Labour party spokesperson confirmed they would scrap the scheme on election notwithstanding this developments
    It doesn't seem a credible argument that asylum seekers are so afraid of Rwanda that they are desperate to get to Ireland, yet 500 more are so unbothered by the threat to arrive by small boat over the last weekend, and record arrivals for the first 4 months of 2024 despite the foul weather.

    It doesn't add up.

    Leicester 1 nil up. Looks like we are going up as Champions.
    Depends on the awareness of Rwanda (among other things) in the refugee camps around Calais. Plus you are there and desperate.
This discussion has been closed.