There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Well as a Corbynista I cant imagine you as a subscriber to the Jewish Chronicle. The onus will always be on Israel and never on the twats who kicked the whole goddamn mess off.
So when I said Hamas are evil and I hope are destroyed, I was actually supporting Israel?
Also, I am not a Corbynista, so you've got that wrong.
To briefly drag the thread back on topic. These are worrying numbers.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/04/robert-f-kennedy-jr-joe-biden-00150465 ..Kennedy’s popularity appears to be a function of name recognition and a general lack of enthusiasm for President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump, not to mention voters brushing their views onto the somewhat empty canvas of his candidacy. The poll of 2,010 registered Latino voters found Kennedy winning one in five young Latino voters, and also reported him capturing a sizable 17 percent Latino support in Arizona and an even more robust 21 percent in Nevada— the highest number among the battleground states polled. The drag on Biden’s Latino support was so great in the survey that Trump was winning among Hispanics overall in 12 battleground states, 41 percent to Biden’s 34 percent.
If those numbers held in November, it would represent a seismic break in the Democratic coalition and a remaking of the electoral map, leading Democrats to likely lose Nevada and Arizona. In the wake of Trump’s 2020 gains with Hispanics from South Florida to the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas, and even in parts of New Jersey and California, Democrats could still rest easy because the entire Southwest held. But if Nevada and Arizona fall to Trump as a result of erosion in the Latino vote, it would mean Biden is likely suffering similar losses across the country, presaging an election loss...
Even if Trump wins Arizona and Nevada (the former let us not forget voted for Trump in 2016, Romney and McCain and the latter for George W Bush twice), Biden can still win provided he wins Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin again, which have much smaller Latino populations. It is likely the latter 3 states that will determine the election and of course before Trump in 2016 the last Republican they voted for was Bush Snr in the case of the first two and Reagan in the case of the latter
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
For (2) I have no idea. (Was it?) @Endillion who said that if someone else took over the war wouldn't stop.
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
That's exactly what's happened. Bloody Sunday acted as a recruiting sergeant for the IRA. This is that multiplied over and over and over again in this instance. Sure, few Irish Nationalist Palestinian kids in Northern Ireland Gaza have any love for the UK Israel, but not all would ally with the IRA Hamas until these events.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Well as a Corbynista I cant imagine you as a subscriber to the Jewish Chronicle. The onus will always be on Israel and never on the twats who kicked the whole goddamn mess off.
Yes, as we all know, the history of the Levant began on 7 October 2023.
Edit: Oh, sorry, perhaps you were referring to the drafters of the Balfour Declaration?
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Well as a Corbynista I cant imagine you as a subscriber to the Jewish Chronicle. The onus will always be on Israel and never on the twats who kicked the whole goddamn mess off.
So when I said Hamas are evil and I hope are destroyed, I was actually supporting Israel?
Also, I am not a Corbynista, so you've got that wrong.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
This is not strange. It's the whole point. Which is why the people who say they dislike (or like) Brexit because of the government it happened under are short-termists.
If you only like democracy when your side is winning, you don't like it at all.
I don't think Brexit was worth it, even allowing him to be more radical.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Yes, and if we left the ECHR he could expropriate property without compensation as there would be no Article 1 of the Protocol to stop him. Suddenly I am in favour!
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don't think we are. Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
Oh, come off it.
You're comparing the democratically elected leaders of a UK-style social democracy - many of whom have been in power for decades - with genocidal maniacs who, when they're not having young women raped to death in fields or torturing children in front of their parents, are murdering political opponents on their own side and using the chaos thus created to throw gay people off buildings.
if you (still singular) actually, legitimately believe that's a fair comparison, then it is reasonable to assume you are coming to the debate with some sort of in-built bias.
For the record, although I doubt you care much, it is overwhelmingly more likely that bias has arisen as a result of the media you've consumed, than some sort of personal defect. But still, bias.
It's you that's making the comparison.
I wouldn't argue with your description of Hamas - but that doesn't make Netenyahu not a sociopath.
And again, the ad hominem.
I'm done arguing with you.
Bye, then.
But before you go: your actual comment was this: Hamas are led by sociopaths with no regard for human life - but at the moment, it’s not unreasonable to make the same judgment of Israel’s leaders.
So no, it was you who made the comparison. And it's obviously the "no regard for human life" bit that's offensive, not "sociopath".
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
What happens if the Treasury view is wrong ? We simply have groupthink. The UK need growth policies if it is to shift the mess it is in, currently nobody is proposing much.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Well as a Corbynista I cant imagine you as a subscriber to the Jewish Chronicle. The onus will always be on Israel and never on the twats who kicked the whole goddamn mess off.
Yes, as we all know, the history of the Levant began on 7 October 2023.
Edit: Oh, sorry, perhaps you were referring to the drafters of the Balfour Declaration?
I think you need to go back and check your history, thats just not true.
Unlike Las Vegas, what happens in Florida does not stay in Florida. This week the state’s highest court issued a pair of rulings that ought to keep Donald Trump awake at night. If any issue can bring suburban women out against him, it is reproductive freedom. The court approved one of America’s most draconian anti-abortion laws, yet also gave Floridians the chance to settle that question in November. If Democrats had scripted two rulings likelier to spur turnout, it is hard to think what they might be.
Alabama's Republican judges wrote a script for the Dems too, crashing IVF by ruling a ball of cells to be a child. That led to a special election (by-election) there with a 25% Democratic majority in a formerly Trump-voting constituency. The signs are already there that reproductive freedom is going horribly wrong for Trump and everyone down list.
Stat on that - the petition for a proposition on the ballot paper for putting abortion rights in the Florida Consitution received 1.5 million signatures.
Total votes cast in Florida in 2020 were ~11 million, from an Electorate of ~15 million.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
For (2) I have no idea. (Was it?) @Endillion who said that if someone else took over the war wouldn't stop.
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
But Israel has agency. It isn't a puppet of Hamas.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
What happens if the Treasury view is wrong ? We simply have groupthink. The UK need growth policies if it is to shift the mess it is in, currently nobody is proposing much.
Has anyone tried my idea for green subsidy on a Treasury wonk?
X per unit of ZE power generation/storage* actually sold in a vehicle. X is graded according to the U.K. content.
I suspect that the Foreigner Office would have the biggest objections, actually.
*Trying for a definition that is as non solution specific as possible.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Horse, you just have to accept that some people don't really understand altruism; for them charity begins and ends at home.
Any time they see others caring about perfect strangers they try to work out what the angle is, 'what's in it for them?'.
I just get very bemused why people can't understand that you can be totally supportive of destroying Hamas but also be able to say that Israel are going about it in totally the wrong way and their approach is now self-defeating. These two things are not in conflict yet I have been called an appeaser.
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
This is not strange. It's the whole point. Which is why the people who say they dislike (or like) Brexit because of the government it happened under are short-termists.
If you only like democracy when your side is winning, you don't like it at all.
I don't think Brexit was worth it, even allowing him to be more radical.
That's fine too.
Thanks I guess.
I think Brexit is and was a terrible idea. Something which I never supported and never will support. But having said all that, I am not supportive of rejoining.
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Selfish and hypocritcal perhaps, but not appalling. A lot of humans are pretty selfish and hypocritcal by default, so hard to be appalled by such behaviour imo.
Yes I understand people can be selfish . Leave voters should not be allowed an EU passport . If they voted to leave it , then they should lose their FOM rights .
Who are all of these people who have been denied a job in the EU? I don't know a single person who has.
My company will allow internal transfers to work for a period in Europe, which I would like to do but am prevented due to not having right to work. Nomad visas etc are irrelevant to these opportunities.
Maybe it's not a huge deal and I would accept it willingly if anyone could point to a clear Brexit advantage that makes my relatively minor loss worth while. Anything at all?
We are freed from the yoke of the totalitarian capitalism hegemony that is the EU.
The incoming Labour government will have the freedom to do a bit of Socialism, without falling foul of EU diktats.
Whether they take that opportunity is something to be revealed.
When I mentioned clear benefit, I meant concrete things here and now, not word salad. Europhiles can do word salad too.
That's the problem with Brexit. It's not that it's a disaster. Rather it is completely pointless and a bit shit. Even those supposedly in favour of it can't be bothered or aren't able to come up with any real benefits. So it fails
So our own farmers become more competitive and can increase their incomes and we cut back on food miles.
Sounds good.
Slapping charges on imports increases competitiveness?
No wonder your grasp of economics is so slight.
It's what the EU has done for the last 50 years. Maybe you hadnt noticed ?
I had indeed noticed the benefits of being part of the larges single market in the world.
Still, blue passports, eh. Rejoice!
Yeah, ducking the point.
The point being that Brexit has become a total sh*tshow for most people - higher prices, ridiculous passport queues at ports and airports, random customs charges on parcels from abroad, these are the things people experience every day. And the variety and quality of goods available in the UK has declined - the range of cheeses sold in my local supermarket is now much more limited than it was before Brexit, to take one example.
And for what? What benefits can we see in our everyday lives? Or for the UK on the international stage? There are none.
You would have higher prices no matter what due to Covid and Putin. Personally I fly via Schipol to Hamburg every month and never face a long wait. As for supermarket stocking policies they change all the time. The selection of cheese at my local Waitrose has got better, lots of local artisan cheese. If cheese is your thing change supermarket.
Your issue is you are stuck in the past. You lost a vote because you couldnt sell a positive view of the EU.
I hope you're using a British passport and not cheating with an Irish one!
I have both. But currently Im travelling on the Blue\black one.
So Brexit was a win win for you. Foreigners kicked out and you retain your freedom of movement. Happy days!
I voted for it twice
How come?
Did I miss Starmer's proposed rerun?
Starmer wont re-run, the EUs not interested.
No that's true, but I think you will find the narrative around Brexit will change completely after the election. There will be no one left in public life who will seek to defend it - at the moment the government machine has to talk it up and look for "benefits" but that will not happen under Labour. The government machine will talk it down and remind people of the cost - as Reeves did in her Mais lecture. And I think you will find opportunists like Farage backing away from it - not because they want to rejoin of course but because they won't want to be associated with what will come to be seen as Johnson's disastrous deal. And any Tory leader who is interested in taking the party back to power will need to attract support from the 60% or so of the electorate who think Brexit was a bad move.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
Have you forgotten your own Brexit history? Is that the road to Damascus?
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Horse, you just have to accept that some people don't really understand altruism; for them charity begins and ends at home.
Any time they see others caring about perfect strangers they try to work out what the angle is, 'what's in it for them?'.
I just get very bemused why people can't understand that you can be totally supportive of destroying Hamas but also be able to say that Israel are going about it in totally the wrong way and their approach is now self-defeating. These two things are not in conflict yet I have been called an appeaser.
Indeed, but hold fast. You are spot on in this and not alone, indeed I suspect you are in the majority on here and in the country.
The stupid thing is Israel is rapidly losing the broad support it had after the Hamas attack. Historically the 'uncompromising line' rarely wins in the long run. See Northern Ireland, South Africa, the Soviet Union, British India, etc...
I was a Corbyn supporter and I have said I don't know how many times I was wrong and I regret it. But that was in 2019!
But it doesn't make anything I've said less valid - and rather than bringing it up, why don't you argue with what I am actually saying?
You implied that I am on the side of Hamas. Why?
Do you think Joe Biden is on the side of Hamas?
Pushing hard against Israel is supporting Hamas, thats how I see it. When the chips are down Hamas are Putin and Iran and have no interest in peace unless it involves the destruction of Israel. They use their own people as human shields, are knuckle dragging Islamo Fascists and if successful wish nothing but ill on the West.
Biden is shifting his ground as he is in an election and has alienated a chuck of his supporters.
The Gaza dispute is the cause celebre of the Media. There are other disputes Sudan for instance which are just as violent where people are starving and where refugees are aplenty. They get little coverage, to their credit Al Jazeera do at least do reports on Sudan each week.
But Gaza is front page news because its Israel, no other reason.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
What happens if the Treasury view is wrong ? We simply have groupthink. The UK need growth policies if it is to shift the mess it is in, currently nobody is proposing much.
If politicians have a credible plan to boost growth in a way that involves issuing more debt then ultimately the people they have to convince are the debt markets. Having an independent body doing the forecasts rather than marking their own homework is likely to make that exercise easier, not harder. If the plan is credible then it should convince the independent forecasters at the OBR (who tend to be close to the market consensus). Conversely, if the plan can't convince the OBR, the chance it will convince the markets is low.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
It wouldn’t be justified even if there was one militant who managed to infiltrate the convoy .
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
So let's play it your way. The Aid Industry rolled into Gaza and there are a zillion of them there now. All have their domestic "guides" otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in. Let's suppose there were 200 aid movements a day and of those 10% were used by the "guides" to move themselves and weapons and perhaps even hostages from A to B.
Still off limits?
I doubt that aid convoy would be complicit in moving weapons or hostages . One armed militant is not justification for killing 7 aid workers .
First off Hamas is well-documented as using everything and anything for its military purposes (eg ambulances bringing in hostages to the Al Shifa hospital). But leaving that aside, 7:1 is your red line and that is fine. But it might not be the same red line as one of the combatants. Which is also fair enough.
You and, say, @kinabalu, and our very own Horsey for sure, and plenty others have this innate sense of reasonableness and red lines, transgressions of which are beyond the pale and that also is fair enough. But do you see how for a country which believes itself to be in an existential war those red lines might be different.
Would for example you attack an aid car if there was just a driver from the aid agency and a militant carrying a rocket to his fellow combatants in there.
You keep doing lofty meta commentary rather than giving your opinion. Odd since you usually spray them around quite jauntily.
We know that the Israeli government considers their actions in Gaza to be justified. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise. But do you think that it is?
I was a Corbyn supporter and I have said I don't know how many times I was wrong and I regret it. But that was in 2019!
But it doesn't make anything I've said less valid - and rather than bringing it up, why don't you argue with what I am actually saying?
You implied that I am on the side of Hamas. Why?
Do you think Joe Biden is on the side of Hamas?
Pushing hard against Israel is supporting Hamas, thats how I see it. When the chips are down Hamas are Putin and Iran and have no interest in peace unless it involves the destruction of Israel. They use their own people as human shields, are knuckle dragging Islamo Fascists and if successful wish nothing but ill on the West.
Biden is shifting his ground as he is in an election and has alienated a chuck of his supporters.
The Gaza dispute is the cause celebre of the Media. There are other disputes Sudan for instance which are just as violent where people are starving and where refugees are aplenty. They get little coverage, to their credit Al Jazeera do at least do reports on Sudan each week.
But Gaza is front page news because its Israel, no other reason.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
For (2) I have no idea. (Was it?) @Endillion who said that if someone else took over the war wouldn't stop.
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
That's exactly what's happened. Bloody Sunday acted as a recruiting sergeant for the IRA. This is that multiplied over and over and over again in this instance. Sure, few Irish Nationalist Palestinian kids in Northern Ireland Gaza have any love for the UK Israel, but not all would ally with the IRA Hamas until these events.
There were British soldiers killed by the IRA in the months before Bloody Sunday, but I don't think that really bears comparison with the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th. Internment was already recruiting lots of people to the IRA long before Bloody Sunday.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
What happens if the Treasury view is wrong ? We simply have groupthink. The UK need growth policies if it is to shift the mess it is in, currently nobody is proposing much.
If politicians have a credible plan to boost growth in a way that involves issuing more debt then ultimately the people they have to convince are the debt markets. Having an independent body doing the forecasts rather than marking their own homework is likely to make that exercise easier, not harder. If the plan is credible then it should convince the independent forecasters at the OBR (who tend to be close to the market consensus). Conversely, if the plan can't convince the OBR, the chance it will convince the markets is low.
I would happily suggest the way to engender growth is through repealing restrictive legislation of which we have plenty since 2000. The Planning system is a total mess and explains why we dont build enough houses. Starmer claims he understand this it remains to be seen what he will do. But rolling back laws has the advantage it costs nothing and allows us to concentrate on what is important.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don't think we are. Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
Oh, come off it.
You're comparing the democratically elected leaders of a UK-style social democracy - many of whom have been in power for decades - with genocidal maniacs who, when they're not having young women raped to death in fields or torturing children in front of their parents, are murdering political opponents on their own side and using the chaos thus created to throw gay people off buildings.
if you (still singular) actually, legitimately believe that's a fair comparison, then it is reasonable to assume you are coming to the debate with some sort of in-built bias.
For the record, although I doubt you care much, it is overwhelmingly more likely that bias has arisen as a result of the media you've consumed, than some sort of personal defect. But still, bias.
Where are you getting your info about Israel and Gaza from?
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Not "strangely" at all. This is why some of us on the left voted Leave.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
The biggest mistake the Remain movement made was succumbing to Boris Derangement Syndrome after he became PM which led to them playing into his hands and setting him up for the Get Brexit Done election.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
For (2) I have no idea. (Was it?) @Endillion who said that if someone else took over the war wouldn't stop.
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
That's exactly what's happened. Bloody Sunday acted as a recruiting sergeant for the IRA. This is that multiplied over and over and over again in this instance. Sure, few Irish Nationalist Palestinian kids in Northern Ireland Gaza have any love for the UK Israel, but not all would ally with the IRA Hamas until these events.
There were British soldiers killed by the IRA in the months before Bloody Sunday, but I don't think that really bears comparison with the Hamas attack on Israel on October 7th. Internment was already recruiting lots of people to the IRA long before Bloody Sunday.
As a parallel I don't think it works at all.
In 1979, one British officer claimed that Warrenpoint was the IRA's "revenge" for Bloody Sunday, given the Paras were deliberately targeted that day.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
The biggest mistake the Remain movement made was succumbing to Boris Derangement Syndrome after he became PM which led to them playing into his hands and setting him up for the Get Brexit Done election.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
The biggest mistake the Remain movement made was succumbing to Boris Derangement Syndrome after he became PM which led to them playing into his hands and setting him up for the Get Brexit Done election.
You and me both.
Tell me, when did you see the light?
When Ursula von der Leyen launched her populist campaign against AstraZeneca and tried to block the UK from receiving vaccines.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Not "strangely" at all. This is why some of us on the left voted Leave.
The state has always had the power to nationalise industries, including within the EU. Not that it's much going to happen.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
What happens if the Treasury view is wrong ? We simply have groupthink. The UK need growth policies if it is to shift the mess it is in, currently nobody is proposing much.
If politicians have a credible plan to boost growth in a way that involves issuing more debt then ultimately the people they have to convince are the debt markets. Having an independent body doing the forecasts rather than marking their own homework is likely to make that exercise easier, not harder. If the plan is credible then it should convince the independent forecasters at the OBR (who tend to be close to the market consensus). Conversely, if the plan can't convince the OBR, the chance it will convince the markets is low.
I would happily suggest the way to engender growth is through repealing restrictive legislation of which we have plenty since 2000. The Planning system is a total mess and explains why we dont build enough houses. Starmer claims he understand this it remains to be seen what he will do. But rolling back laws has the advantage it costs nothing and allows us to concentrate on what is important.
I would expect serious proposals to boost productivity along those lines would receive a very sympathetic hearing from the OBR and that could only help in communicating the message to financial markets, who put a lot more weight on the analysis of independent technocrats than on the words of politicians. What the OBR won't do is rubber stamp absurd magical thinking along the lines of Truss's back of a fag packet growth "plan". That's why Truss tried to bypass the OBR, and why people who buy bonds for a living reacted so violently.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Not "strangely" at all. This is why some of us on the left voted Leave.
The state has always had the power to nationalise industries, including within the EU. Not that it's much going to happen.
I have my hopes for Thames Water. Pour encourager les autres if nothing else.
I was a Corbyn supporter and I have said I don't know how many times I was wrong and I regret it. But that was in 2019!
But it doesn't make anything I've said less valid - and rather than bringing it up, why don't you argue with what I am actually saying?
You implied that I am on the side of Hamas. Why?
Do you think Joe Biden is on the side of Hamas?
Pushing hard against Israel is supporting Hamas, thats how I see it. When the chips are down Hamas are Putin and Iran and have no interest in peace unless it involves the destruction of Israel. They use their own people as human shields, are knuckle dragging Islamo Fascists and if successful wish nothing but ill on the West.
Biden is shifting his ground as he is in an election and has alienated a chuck of his supporters.
The Gaza dispute is the cause celebre of the Media. There are other disputes Sudan for instance which are just as violent where people are starving and where refugees are aplenty. They get little coverage, to their credit Al Jazeera do at least do reports on Sudan each week.
But Gaza is front page news because its Israel, no other reason.
The Middle East will always merit greater news attention as long as we are reliant on oil and gas imports from the region. We receive no critical imports from Sudan or Haiti, and that is why interminable, bloody conflicts in those countries receive less coverage.
If the renewable transition is successful in reducing our demand for hydrocarbons to close to zero, then Middle East correspondents will need to learn some new languages.
To briefly drag the thread back on topic. These are worrying numbers.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/04/robert-f-kennedy-jr-joe-biden-00150465 ..Kennedy’s popularity appears to be a function of name recognition and a general lack of enthusiasm for President Joe Biden and former President Donald Trump, not to mention voters brushing their views onto the somewhat empty canvas of his candidacy. The poll of 2,010 registered Latino voters found Kennedy winning one in five young Latino voters, and also reported him capturing a sizable 17 percent Latino support in Arizona and an even more robust 21 percent in Nevada— the highest number among the battleground states polled. The drag on Biden’s Latino support was so great in the survey that Trump was winning among Hispanics overall in 12 battleground states, 41 percent to Biden’s 34 percent.
If those numbers held in November, it would represent a seismic break in the Democratic coalition and a remaking of the electoral map, leading Democrats to likely lose Nevada and Arizona. In the wake of Trump’s 2020 gains with Hispanics from South Florida to the Rio Grande Valley in south Texas, and even in parts of New Jersey and California, Democrats could still rest easy because the entire Southwest held. But if Nevada and Arizona fall to Trump as a result of erosion in the Latino vote, it would mean Biden is likely suffering similar losses across the country, presaging an election loss...
Even if Trump wins Arizona and Nevada (the former let us not forget voted for Trump in 2016, Romney and McCain and the latter for George W Bush twice), Biden can still win provided he wins Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin again, which have much smaller Latino populations. It is likely the latter 3 states that will determine the election and of course before Trump in 2016 the last Republican they voted for was Bush Snr in the case of the first two and Reagan in the case of the latter
Indeed I think there is a real chance Biden wins the EC but Trump wins the popular vote in November. Fuelled by Trump's gains with Hispanics in the West and California and Jews in NY state but Biden polling slightly better than he is nationally in the swing rustbelt states of Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
Current Vauxhall Corsas seem to be about 20-25% off on Carwow, so I'm sure they will manage something.
More than that if you are looking at the electric versions - I’ll post this Peugeot 2008 because it shows how step the discounts are - I suspect it won’t take much to find similar any time this year now x% of cars need to be evs
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Not "strangely" at all. This is why some of us on the left voted Leave.
The state has always had the power to nationalise industries, including within the EU. Not that it's much going to happen.
I have my hopes for Thames Water. Pour encourager les autres if nothing else.
I'm afraid it's likely to be a washout, but in the meanwhile it's definitely a shitshow.
I was a Corbyn supporter and I have said I don't know how many times I was wrong and I regret it. But that was in 2019!
But it doesn't make anything I've said less valid - and rather than bringing it up, why don't you argue with what I am actually saying?
You implied that I am on the side of Hamas. Why?
Do you think Joe Biden is on the side of Hamas?
Pushing hard against Israel is supporting Hamas, thats how I see it. When the chips are down Hamas are Putin and Iran and have no interest in peace unless it involves the destruction of Israel. They use their own people as human shields, are knuckle dragging Islamo Fascists and if successful wish nothing but ill on the West.
Biden is shifting his ground as he is in an election and has alienated a chuck of his supporters.
The Gaza dispute is the cause celebre of the Media. There are other disputes Sudan for instance which are just as violent where people are starving and where refugees are aplenty. They get little coverage, to their credit Al Jazeera do at least do reports on Sudan each week.
But Gaza is front page news because its Israel, no other reason.
The Middle East will always merit greater news attention as long as we are reliant on oil and gas imports from the region. We receive no critical imports from Sudan or Haiti, and that is why interminable, bloody conflicts in those countries receive less coverage.
If the renewable transition is successful in reducing our demand for hydrocarbons to close to zero, then Middle East correspondents will need to learn some new languages.
Yes, however it is noticeable that the Gulf Nations are letting the oil flow and have no real interest in Gazans.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
Presumably it means that the IDF deliberately targeted the 3 aid vehicles knowing they were WCK vehicles.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
The biggest mistake the Remain movement made was succumbing to Boris Derangement Syndrome after he became PM which led to them playing into his hands and setting him up for the Get Brexit Done election.
You and me both.
Tell me, when did you see the light?
When Ursula von der Leyen launched her populist campaign against AstraZeneca and tried to block the UK from receiving vaccines.
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Just wondered.
Is it your dog Ben?
That is cool Ben pointer. Sadly no longer with us. Best dog ever.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
Current Vauxhall Corsas seem to be about 20-25% off on Carwow, so I'm sure they will manage something.
More than that if you are looking at the electric versions - I’ll post this Peugeot 2008 because it shows how step the discounts are - I suspect it won’t take much to find similar any time this year now x% of cars need to be evs
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Selfish and hypocritcal perhaps, but not appalling. A lot of humans are pretty selfish and hypocritcal by default, so hard to be appalled by such behaviour imo.
Yes I understand people can be selfish . Leave voters should not be allowed an EU passport . If they voted to leave it , then they should lose their FOM rights .
Who are all of these people who have been denied a job in the EU? I don't know a single person who has.
My company will allow internal transfers to work for a period in Europe, which I would like to do but am prevented due to not having right to work. Nomad visas etc are irrelevant to these opportunities.
Maybe it's not a huge deal and I would accept it willingly if anyone could point to a clear Brexit advantage that makes my relatively minor loss worth while. Anything at all?
We are freed from the yoke of the totalitarian capitalism hegemony that is the EU.
The incoming Labour government will have the freedom to do a bit of Socialism, without falling foul of EU diktats.
Whether they take that opportunity is something to be revealed.
When I mentioned clear benefit, I meant concrete things here and now, not word salad. Europhiles can do word salad too.
That's the problem with Brexit. It's not that it's a disaster. Rather it is completely pointless and a bit shit. Even those supposedly in favour of it can't be bothered or aren't able to come up with any real benefits. So it fails
OK. So Brexit gives an incoming Labour government more freedom to do stuff. That's why I voted Leave. We have not yet seen the benefits of Brexit, since we've had Tory governments ever since we voted Leave.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
It was clear that it was raising the stakes. Gamblers shouldn't complain about losing.
So we Remainers, of which you were one, were the masters and mistresses of our own destiny?
The biggest mistake the Remain movement made was succumbing to Boris Derangement Syndrome after he became PM which led to them playing into his hands and setting him up for the Get Brexit Done election.
The biggest mistake was in failing to create a unified strategy, which was why the votes on alternatives in the Commons were such a farce, and it's why people can say with a straight face that Remainers should have voted for a hard Brexit - that only looks remotely sensible because Remainers didn't have a clear strategy of their own.
If Remainers had united around achieving a soft Brexit (e.g. Norway for Now) then they would have had a fair chance of achieving that outcome. But they were split between second voters, and those who were pursuing narrow partisan interests.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
I don't think it is semantics. Fundamentally, the OBR is simply the forecasting wing of the Treasury put at arms length so that it can't be leaned on by politicians to produced biased, wishful thinking forecasts or forecasts that hide their assumptions. The Treasury still decides the policies. The Treasury still decides the rules that it wants the OBR to assess. It's just that now we can be a little more confident in the numbers (they will still be wrong as all forecasts are, but there is a distinction between being wrong and being systematically biased). Apart from anything else, this probably means the government can borrow more cheaply, as the Truss debacle I think demonstrates.
As I've said in the past along similar lines, Liz Truss did not appreciate just why Gordon Brown made the Bank of England independent.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
Labour supported several other motions for deals which were compromises but still Brexit.
Personally I do blame some of the second referendum lot who scuppered Ken Clarke/Nick Boles compromise motions.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
Corbyn Labour wanted to force a winnable GE. Anti-Corbyn Remainers wanted to force a 2nd referendum without a GE. Together but at odds they managed to set up the impasse that Johnson and Cummings exploited with ruthless precision.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Selfish and hypocritcal perhaps, but not appalling. A lot of humans are pretty selfish and hypocritcal by default, so hard to be appalled by such behaviour imo.
Yes I understand people can be selfish . Leave voters should not be allowed an EU passport . If they voted to leave it , then they should lose their FOM rights .
Who are all of these people who have been denied a job in the EU? I don't know a single person who has.
My company will allow internal transfers to work for a period in Europe, which I would like to do but am prevented due to not having right to work. Nomad visas etc are irrelevant to these opportunities.
Maybe it's not a huge deal and I would accept it willingly if anyone could point to a clear Brexit advantage that makes my relatively minor loss worth while. Anything at all?
We are freed from the yoke of the totalitarian capitalism hegemony that is the EU.
The incoming Labour government will have the freedom to do a bit of Socialism, without falling foul of EU diktats.
Whether they take that opportunity is something to be revealed.
When I mentioned clear benefit, I meant concrete things here and now, not word salad. Europhiles can do word salad too.
That's the problem with Brexit. It's not that it's a disaster. Rather it is completely pointless and a bit shit. Even those supposedly in favour of it can't be bothered or aren't able to come up with any real benefits. So it fails
OK. So Brexit gives an incoming Labour government more freedom to do stuff. That's why I voted Leave. We have not yet seen the benefits of Brexit, since we've had Tory governments ever since we voted Leave.
There are no benefits, whichever party is in charge.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
Corbyn Labour wanted to force a winnable GE. Anti-Corbyn Remainers wanted to force a 2nd referendum without a GE. Together but at odds they managed to set up the impasse that Johnson and Cummings exploited with ruthless precision.
Which means that Starmer was the real guilty party. Corbyn and the Labour Party's interests would have been best served by abstaining, but that would have failed the Remainer purity test.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
The EU would have been happy enough with the Clarke compromise or something like it.
It's a bit much to just expect Labour to vote for a policy they hate without any compromise because a Tory leader lost control of her own party.
I suspect it would have been moot though, probably May would have been toppled even had her deal gone through on the back of Labour support.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Not "strangely" at all. This is why some of us on the left voted Leave.
The state has always had the power to nationalise industries, including within the EU. Not that it's much going to happen.
I have my hopes for Thames Water. Pour encourager les autres if nothing else.
I'm afraid it's likely to be a washout, but in the meanwhile it's definitely a shitshow.
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Just wondered.
Is it your dog Ben?
That is cool Ben pointer. Sadly no longer with us. Best dog ever.
Was the dog called Ben?
Lovely doggo, do you have another one now?
We had a lovely black lab who sadly passed away a few years ago now, she was my favourite dog ever and my best friend.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
One thing I don't understand is why there was so much pushing from various remainers in the 2017-19 parliament to try and make sure we didn't leave when as a nation we'd voted to do so. It was simply incredulous to watch, and I was watching it all very very closely at the time. Once a political decision has been made in a democracy, that decision needs to be seen through. The voters might change their mind in a few years time but you can't and shouldn't stop the voters' choice being enacted in the meantime. c.f. The difference between Trump trying to overturn the result of 2020 and running again in 2024. I was absolutely furious with our side's behaviour during the 2017-19 parliament. Fucking furious !
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
Corbyn Labour wanted to force a winnable GE. Anti-Corbyn Remainers wanted to force a 2nd referendum without a GE. Together but at odds they managed to set up the impasse that Johnson and Cummings exploited with ruthless precision.
Which means that Starmer was the real guilty party. Corbyn and the Labour Party's interests would have been best served by abstaining, but that would have failed the Remainer purity test.
Theresa May in 2016/2017 could have delivered a soft Brexit, recognising the closeness of the vote. But she went all batty on the advice of Nick Timothy (whatever happened to him?).
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
Theresa May in 2016/2017 could have delivered a soft Brexit, recognising the closeness of the vote. But she went all batty on the advice of Nick Timothy (whatever happened to him?).
Had Theresa May delivered a Brexit deal that kept FOM and stayed in the EEA then Farage's party would have overtaken the Tories at the following general election. That was never going to happen
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
This is voodoo economics. Where do you imagine that this 5% has gone and where would it magically come from if we rejoined?
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Just wondered.
Is it your dog Ben?
That is cool Ben pointer. Sadly no longer with us. Best dog ever.
Was the dog called Ben?
Lovely doggo, do you have another one now?
We had a lovely black lab who sadly passed away a few years ago now, she was my favourite dog ever and my best friend.
Yes he was called Ben. We have another pointer now called Troy - he's lovely dog too, happiest dog I have ever met, but Ben was very special.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
Current Vauxhall Corsas seem to be about 20-25% off on Carwow, so I'm sure they will manage something.
More than that if you are looking at the electric versions - I’ll post this Peugeot 2008 because it shows how step the discounts are - I suspect it won’t take much to find similar any time this year now x% of cars need to be evs
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
We have too much rose tinted glasses on life before 2016. We forget the endless budget squabbles, the France and Germany ganging up on us, the endless regulation the creeping approach to a superstate without voters consent.
Look at the EU today and all of that is still here. Run a campaign on re-joining and it all comes back.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
OBR would revise growth (And they'd be right to) sharply upward were we to rejoin creating the new membership. No need for hospital closures.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
You are comparing one forecast with another forecast. Forecasts are not reality.
May wouldn’t have survived putting a deal through reliant on opposition votes.
Yes, and a Brexit deal that didn't have the support of the ERG would have been decried as a betrayal and would have led to them causing the same problems even after Brexit.
Question to the Mods: Why does PB allow posters to make their profiles private, so you cannot easily take a look through their previous posts?
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Just wondered.
Is it your dog Ben?
That is cool Ben pointer. Sadly no longer with us. Best dog ever.
Was the dog called Ben?
Lovely doggo, do you have another one now?
We had a lovely black lab who sadly passed away a few years ago now, she was my favourite dog ever and my best friend.
Yes he was called Ben. We have another pointer now called Troy - he's lovely dog too, happiest dog I have ever met, but Ben was very special.
Ah, I always thought you were called Ben, that makes a lot of sense.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
You know what Alan, I'm not capable of selling the benefits of anything political, so you're right there. That's why I don't try. But closer cooperation with the EU will sell itself, indeed already is looking at the polls.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
Corbyn Labour wanted to force a winnable GE. Anti-Corbyn Remainers wanted to force a 2nd referendum without a GE. Together but at odds they managed to set up the impasse that Johnson and Cummings exploited with ruthless precision.
Which means that Starmer was the real guilty party. Corbyn and the Labour Party's interests would have been best served by abstaining, but that would have failed the Remainer purity test.
The core guilty parties were the politicians campaigning for Leave plus the people who voted for it. As for how it panned out in practice, it's my view that the outcome was all but inevitable once Mrs May lost her majority. The make-up of that post GE17 parliament pretty much guaranteed it. All of the factions were acting rationally according to their own justifiable agendas and their respective sizes meant that what happened was almost bound to happen.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
OBR would revise growth (And they'd be right to) sharply upward were we to rejoin creating the new membership. No need for hospital closures.
Or we could sack the head of OBR, put in a leaver and have the same effect.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
This is voodoo economics. Where do you imagine that this 5% has gone and where would it magically come from if we rejoined?
Why? It's perfectly reasonable to assume rejoining the single market would boost UK economic growth.
May wouldn’t have survived putting a deal through reliant on opposition votes.
Yes, and a Brexit deal that didn't have the support of the ERG would have been decried as a betrayal and would have led to them causing the same problems even after Brexit.
If May's deal had gone through and she'd subsequently been brought down, it would have been a much worse position from which to fight a Brexit General Election.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
This is voodoo economics. Where do you imagine that this 5% has gone and where would it magically come from if we rejoined?
Growth comes from being able to trade freely with part of a larger, richer whole. Mississippi, the poorest state in the USA has slightly higher gdp per cap than us. A colossal part of that is because they can trade freely with no barriers with the rest of the USA. Now the EU isn't as integrated as the USA but it's a real stretch to give no gdp uplift from rejoining.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
Who is going to agree to pay the membership fees of re-joining the EU? It's like a gym membership we have let lapse. Too many other calls on the money now, given we never went that often when we had it.
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
WE will pay for it, and much more, with the proceeds of the 5% of GDP that was lost through Brexit and will be restored if we rejoin.
This is voodoo economics. Where do you imagine that this 5% has gone and where would it magically come from if we rejoined?
Why? It's perfectly reasonable to assume rejoining the single market would boost UK economic growth.
Most of the difference in the forecasts relied on assumptions about differential population growth inside the single market vs outside it. They thought that leaving the single market would reduce immigration. As we've seen, this assumption was bogus.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
Disagree, it really was very very obvious at the time that pushing things further would end very badly for remainers as it was only ever going to end in either a no deal Brexit or a harsher Brexit (Which is what we got). It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
That's a massive post-rationalisation.
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
Even if that had been voted through, the Gov't would never have gone down that route as it was an indicative vote and would have required renegotiation with the EU which neither side was particularly in favour of. That May's deal never got close to making it through parliament does not mean it wasn't the option that remainers should have gone for given the situation at the time. Hardcore Brexiteers were entirely correct to oppose May's deal, Labour should have whipped it through via either voting for or abstention.
With hindsight, maybe.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
Do you think youre capable of that ?
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
You know what Alan, I'm not capable of selling the benefits of anything political, so you're right there. That's why I don't try. But closer cooperation with the EU will sell itself, indeed already is looking at the polls.
We will inevitably have closer coopertion with the EU, Firstly the key personnel have left the scene - Barnier, Juncker, Johnson - so the tone has softened. Secondly money and pragmatism will ease trading.
We will inevitably have closer coopertion with the EU, Firstly the key personnel have left the scene - Barnier, Juncker, Johnson - so the tone has softened. Secondly money and pragmatism will ease trading.
Comments
Also, I am not a Corbynista, so you've got that wrong.
You will no doubt call me an anti-Semite next.
Irish NationalistPalestinian kids inNorthern IrelandGaza have any love forthe UKIsrael, but not all would ally withthe IRAHamas until these events.Edit: Oh, sorry, perhaps you were referring to the drafters of the Balfour Declaration?
But if I am wrong then I apologise to you.
Any time they see others caring about perfect strangers they try to work out what the angle is, 'what's in it for them?'.
https://youtu.be/MX1zOXfCz0g?si=w7r5AFPIUCdovuQd
But before you go: your actual comment was this:
Hamas are led by sociopaths with no regard for human life - but at the moment, it’s not unreasonable to make the same judgment of Israel’s leaders.
So no, it was you who made the comparison. And it's obviously the "no regard for human life" bit that's offensive, not "sociopath".
Total votes cast in Florida in 2020 were ~11 million, from an Electorate of ~15 million.
Chump's margin of victory was ~400k.
But it doesn't make anything I've said less valid - and rather than bringing it up, why don't you argue with what I am actually saying?
You implied that I am on the side of Hamas. Why?
Do you think Joe Biden is on the side of Hamas?
X per unit of ZE power generation/storage* actually sold in a vehicle. X is graded according to the U.K. content.
I suspect that the Foreigner Office would have the biggest objections, actually.
*Trying for a definition that is as non solution specific as possible.
After all, the poster themselves remains anonymous unless they dox themselves, as does their private email address. It just seems a bit illogical that people are happy to post on here but don't want others being able to see a list of their comments.
Just wondered.
I think Brexit is and was a terrible idea. Something which I never supported and never will support. But having said all that, I am not supportive of rejoining.
That's the problem with Brexit. It's not that it's a disaster. Rather it is completely pointless and a bit shit. Even those supposedly in favour of it can't be bothered or aren't able to come up with any real benefits. So it fails
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-GWjf7hJzO4
It was a very very simple bit of game theory spotted by many here.
The stupid thing is Israel is rapidly losing the broad support it had after the Hamas attack. Historically the 'uncompromising line' rarely wins in the long run. See Northern Ireland, South Africa, the Soviet Union, British India, etc...
Biden is shifting his ground as he is in an election and has alienated a chuck of his supporters.
The Gaza dispute is the cause celebre of the Media. There are other disputes Sudan for instance which are just as violent where people are starving and where refugees are aplenty. They get little coverage, to their credit Al Jazeera do at least do reports on Sudan each week.
But Gaza is front page news because its Israel, no other reason.
We know that the Israeli government considers their actions in Gaza to be justified. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise. But do you think that it is?
As a parallel I don't think it works at all.
Hang on. Are you Liz Truss?
Tell me, when did you see the light?
In the rounds of 'indicative votes' on 27 March 2019 and 1 April 2019 the only propositions that came close to success were the votes for joining a Customs Union, the vote on 1 April failing by 3 votes. In contrast 'No Deal' lost by 240 votes and a 'Managed No Deal' was rejected by a 283 votes.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 March 2019: "Ken Clarke's Customs Union is the only possible outcome that I think can get over the line."
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/2261681/#Comment_2261681
If the renewable transition is successful in reducing our demand for hydrocarbons to close to zero, then Middle East correspondents will need to learn some new languages.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202404048287976?sort=price-asc&twcs=true&battery-range=OVER_200&fuel-type=Electric&make=Peugeot&model=E-2008&postcode=ne33 3ne&price-from=16000&year-from=2024&advertising-location=at_cars&fromsra
I’ll
If Remainers had united around achieving a soft Brexit (e.g. Norway for Now) then they would have had a fair chance of achieving that outcome. But they were split between second voters, and those who were pursuing narrow partisan interests.
Political unity matters.
Then again, in 10 years time we might benefit from seeing what a shitshow Brexit has been and end up in a Customs Union anyway.
https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1775883760833290462?s=20
Personally I do blame some of the second referendum lot who scuppered Ken Clarke/Nick Boles compromise motions.
March manufacturing PMIs:
UK 50.3
France 46.2
Eurozone 46.1
Germany 41.9
You couldnt sell the benefits when you were in what has changed ?
It's a bit much to just expect Labour to vote for a policy they hate without any compromise because a Tory leader lost control of her own party.
I suspect it would have been moot though, probably May would have been toppled even had her deal gone through on the back of Labour support.
It's green all over, talking about environmental issues.
In the tiniest font on the back at the bottom, a thing saying it's for the Conservatives.
Almost like they were, embarrassed.
Lovely doggo, do you have another one now?
We had a lovely black lab who sadly passed away a few years ago now, she was my favourite dog ever and my best friend.
Once a political decision has been made in a democracy, that decision needs to be seen through. The voters might change their mind in a few years time but you can't and shouldn't stop the voters' choice being enacted in the meantime. c.f. The difference between Trump trying to overturn the result of 2020 and running again in 2024. I was absolutely furious with our side's behaviour during the 2017-19 parliament. Fucking furious !
"Which hospitals are you going to close to pay for it?" will be rather toxic.
(Autotrader requiring a postcode to search nationally is annoying).
Look at the EU today and all of that is still here. Run a campaign on re-joining and it all comes back.
Sounds like there may actually be a case for deploying the big blue tent.
We have a cocker called Milly now
Maybe OBR isnt the answer.
been nationalised