I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
As someone else has already posted, Hamas’ best recruiting sergeant ATM is Netanyahu!
Yes and all very predictable, and the reason for the Hamas attack in the first place.
Israel of course had (and has) the right to defend itself when attacked. But that is different to it being wise or sensible to have acted as they have done. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it right to enforce it.
The more interesting question is what would have been wise and sensible? Hamas' clear strategy was to put Israel in Zugzwang such that it only had some pretty terrible options. Either a war Hamas would try and ensure cost as many Palestinian lives as to break any international support or accept a terror state on your border with the express intent of wiping you out, with increasingly sophisticated military capabilities funded by another state that believes the same thing.
We know what's happening is horrific. But the deeper question is what different paths there are, and what trade-offs a) one can accept yourself and b) Israelis could or should accept.
I think it's unhelpful to paint this in such stark either/or terms. Israel could be occupying Gaza militarily, while being more helpful on aid and less indiscriminate in blowing stuff up. Israel could (and should) stop trying to annex the West Bank bit by bit. Israel could kick politicians who favour ethnic cleansing of Gaza out of government. It's perfectly possible for Israel to respond strongly to Hamas without behaving as they are now.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
If what you say is true, the killing of the British aid workers must have been deliberate.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
So all those Journos on Al Jazeera are israeli stooges ?
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
Withdraw the whip from Andrea Jenkyns and Liz Truss! They are supporting a rival party.
Sunak is too spineless to do anything. As can be seen by his latest threat to leave the ECHR he’s desperately throwing some red meat out to the right completely ignoring the fact that leaving would breach the GFA, lose security co-operation with the EU , could actually result in the cancellation of the FTA , notwithstanding that it would put the UK in the company of Russia and Belarus . Sunak is a despicable individual willing to go on a scorched earth policy to save his skin
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
The incoming Starmer government has been able to form policy without regard to the constraints of EU membership. Does that not have any potential upsides from your perspective?
In theory but not so much in practice - because no big policy which is beneficial and practical and popular would have been impossible as an EU member.
Unlike Las Vegas, what happens in Florida does not stay in Florida. This week the state’s highest court issued a pair of rulings that ought to keep Donald Trump awake at night. If any issue can bring suburban women out against him, it is reproductive freedom. The court approved one of America’s most draconian anti-abortion laws, yet also gave Floridians the chance to settle that question in November. If Democrats had scripted two rulings likelier to spur turnout, it is hard to think what they might be.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
How? Partly because of your vote many of us can't. But you can. You have to see why that provokes some ire? We can't move to the EU in the same way you can. So we're pissed off at you. Just as you are constantly pissed off at just about everyone.
Tart yourself up and marry a German or a Pole.
But I suppose we'll have the usual hurdle that you cant speak anything fluently but english. And in reality you never did want to work abroad it was all daydreaming but it is nice to have a moan.
Top trolling. Typical Tory attacking the man (badly) rather than addressing the argument.
Bigamy is illegal and I’m married to an American. I speak excellent Spanish (my mother taught it), reasonable French, and some Italian. I did in fact spent time working France when younger. Something I can’t do again thanks to you. Neither can people younger than me. But you don’t care, like all Tories, about anyone else.
And the astonishing hypocrisy of you, of all people, criticising someone for “moaning” is obvious.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
As someone else has already posted, Hamas’ best recruiting sergeant ATM is Netanyahu!
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
How? Partly because of your vote many of us can't. But you can. You have to see why that provokes some ire? We can't move to the EU in the same way you can. So we're pissed off at you. Just as you are constantly pissed off at just about everyone.
You can move to Ireland. Six years residency and you can get citizenship, three years if you seduce an Irish citizen and marry them. I didn't realise I was Brexit-proofing myself in 2014, but the first steps in the plan are working well. 19 months to go.
I don't know what the rules are for applying for an Irish passport as a Northern Ireland resident, but you might not even have to leave the UK.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
Surely it's just a case of "when asked to defend the indefensible, just yell 'Antisemite!' instead."
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
How? Partly because of your vote many of us can't. But you can. You have to see why that provokes some ire? We can't move to the EU in the same way you can. So we're pissed off at you. Just as you are constantly pissed off at just about everyone.
You can move to Ireland. Six years residency and you can get citizenship, three years if you seduce an Irish citizen and marry them. I didn't realise I was Brexit-proofing myself in 2014, but the first steps in the plan are working well. 19 months to go.
I don't know what the rules are for applying for an Irish passport as a Northern Ireland resident, but you might not even have to leave the UK.
For the North you need to have a relative born on the Island of Ireland - parent or grandparent.
If you are going to claim citizenship based on marrying someone Irish you need to be resident in RoI for a defined period.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
Surely it's just a case of "when asked to defend the indefensible, just yell 'Antisemite!' instead."
It was a genuine question. I'm not going make the same assumption about Endillion that they appear to have made about me.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
If what you say is true, the killing of the British aid workers must have been deliberate.
Certainly deliberate in the sense that they intended to hit those cars. Almost certainly not deliberate, in the sense that they presumably did not believe they contained aid workers.
At a guess, they had intelligence Hamas were using that convoy as a front to move their people around. If so, then it seems at the moment that intelligence was faulty. It doesn't change anything about the conflict, and it's hardly unsurprising that accidents of that nature happen in war zones. Indeed, they become more likely when your opponents are flouting all the rules of warfare by routinely using aid convoys in such a way, and a credulous Western audience closes their eyes to the abuses.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
As someone else has already posted, Hamas’ best recruiting sergeant ATM is Netanyahu!
Yes and all very predictable, and the reason for the Hamas attack in the first place.
Israel of course had (and has) the right to defend itself when attacked. But that is different to it being wise or sensible to have acted as they have done. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it right to enforce it.
The more interesting question is what would have been wise and sensible? Hamas' clear strategy was to put Israel in Zugzwang such that it only had some pretty terrible options. Either a war Hamas would try and ensure cost as many Palestinian lives as to break any international support or accept a terror state on your border with the express intent of wiping you out, with increasingly sophisticated military capabilities funded by another state that believes the same thing.
We know what's happening is horrific. But the deeper question is what different paths there are, and what trade-offs a) one can accept yourself and b) Israelis could or should accept.
I think it's unhelpful to paint this in such stark either/or terms. Israel could be occupying Gaza militarily, while being more helpful on aid and less indiscriminate in blowing stuff up. Israel could (and should) stop trying to annex the West Bank bit by bit. Israel could kick politicians who favour ethnic cleansing of Gaza out of government. It's perfectly possible for Israel to respond strongly to Hamas without behaving as they are now.
Much of this is true in terms of behaviour - particularly the West Bank and Ben Gvir. But it doesn't change the crude logic of the war - nor would it save vast numbers of lives.
Which is why it's not just the foul Israeli right that support the war but the general population who also want Netanyahu and his cronies (and will kick them out when get a vote) out for mismanaging things in the first place and continuing to.
If you replaced Netanyahu with Yair Lapid tomorrow there would not be an immediate ceasefire. Meanwhile, the West Bank will take *a long* time to sort out. Vital, but not part of the immediate Hamas-inspired crisis.
And it is important to put it in such stark terms because that is how the Israelis view it. As existential. Certainly after 7 October, they taken Hamas' rhetoric about wiping out Jews from the Middle East and that they'd do 7 October again and again quite literally and with justification. And for that matter Iran's and its intention to keep arming them.
Therefore *any* serious effort at peace that goes beyond grandstanding and Western politicians being able to feel good needs to take that into account and offer alternative options to Israel continuing until it has destroyed Hamas, and Hamas trying to ensure as many Palestinians as possible die before they are destroyed.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
If what you say is true, the killing of the British aid workers must have been deliberate.
Certainly deliberate in the sense that they intended to hit those cars. Almost certainly not deliberate, in the sense that they presumably did not believe they contained aid workers.
At a guess, they had intelligence Hamas were using that convoy as a front to move their people around. If so, then it seems at the moment that intelligence was faulty. It doesn't change anything about the conflict, and it's hardly unsurprising that accidents of that nature happen in war zones. Indeed, they become more likely when your opponents are flouting all the rules of warfare by routinely using aid convoys in such a way, and a credulous Western audience closes their eyes to the abuses.
"And that concludes this propaganda broadcast by the IDF"
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Selfish and hypocritcal perhaps, but not appalling. A lot of humans are pretty selfish and hypocritcal by default, so hard to be appalled by such behaviour imo.
Yes I understand people can be selfish . Leave voters should not be allowed an EU passport . If they voted to leave it , then they should lose their FOM rights .
Who are all of these people who have been denied a job in the EU? I don't know a single person who has.
My company will allow internal transfers to work for a period in Europe, which I would like to do but am prevented due to not having right to work. Nomad visas etc are irrelevant to these opportunities.
Maybe it's not a huge deal and I would accept it willingly if anyone could point to a clear Brexit advantage that makes my relatively minor loss worth while. Anything at all?
We are freed from the yoke of the totalitarian capitalism hegemony that is the EU.
The incoming Labour government will have the freedom to do a bit of Socialism, without falling foul of EU diktats.
Whether they take that opportunity is something to be revealed.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
Trump’s bond payment’s been (temporarily) rejected because he didn’t file a statement of his accounts. This could be interesting as he might not be able to do one -
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
We no longer have an independent car industry. We are looking after the foreign nationals we have,
The European car industry bet the farm on diesel and lost. Now its trying to catch back lost ground. The industry isnt helped by ridiculous green targets nobody will ever meet so there will be a roll back on the earlier PR commitments. In Germany the CDU has already said it will back the car industry demands and France is quietly responding to Stedllantis and Renault. Th UK will fall in to line with these moves imo.
There are too many jobs at stake and nobody is in a mood to give the Chinese a lucky break.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Brexit didn't deliver power to a bunch of numpties.
If you mean the Conservatves, they were in power already. If you mean Johnson et al, it was the denial of Brexit that delivered power to them. If the Labour party had backed Theresa May in the national interest, then the 2019 European election debacle wouldn't have happened, Farage wouldn't have had a platform and Johnson wouldn't have come to power.
Sadly the Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer was perhaps more concerned with his own personal ascent.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
What evidence do you have that it wasn't, other than a dislike of Israel, when they're saying it was an accident and they've apologised and said there'll be an investigation.
Its rather naive to believe wars can be carried out without mistakes being made.
Under Tony Blair we in NATO managed to bomb a Chinese embassy during a war, did you think that was on purpose? Bombing the wrong car should be a far more plausible accident.
What evidence do I have? Same evidence you have for your assertion it was an accident. None.
But you can't just murder aid workers, destroy a humanitarian shipment and cause others to stop their aid and go "Whoops! An accident!" and expect everything to be okay.
I know 'being really sorry' is all the rage in MPs circles (I'm sorry I got caught) but if Israel had dropped a nuke on (say) Cairo, would them saying "Look, I fell on the button, I didn't mean it!" justify this?
How far can I go with this 'I didn't mean it?' If Stanislav Petrov had knocked off early, and the Soviet Union destroyed all western Europe and the continential United States, would it all be okay if Andropov had said, "Whoops! Didn't mean it?"
I know you're going to respond with some comment of 'don't be daft' but its you who is being daft. Israel is not conducting war according to any reasonable or safe guidelines. They don't care about civilian deaths of their enemy state (possibly understandable, but still), nor do they care about civilian deaths of other states. And they seem to actively be trying to starve Gaza by denying all aid to the area.
What do they say? Either die the hero, or live long enough to become the villian? Israel is rapidly turning into the state they most opposed.............. (Let's get a bit of Godwin in here too!)
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
Ah thanks for clearing that up. So there was no armed militant and he wasn't in the warehouse (whatever that means).
You must clock up a lot of air miles to be on site at all these places to bring us the truth.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
It wouldn’t be justified even if there was one militant who managed to infiltrate the convoy .
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
As someone else has already posted, Hamas’ best recruiting sergeant ATM is Netanyahu!
Yes and all very predictable, and the reason for the Hamas attack in the first place.
Israel of course had (and has) the right to defend itself when attacked. But that is different to it being wise or sensible to have acted as they have done. Just because you have a right to do something doesn't make it right to enforce it.
The more interesting question is what would have been wise and sensible? Hamas' clear strategy was to put Israel in Zugzwang such that it only had some pretty terrible options. Either a war Hamas would try and ensure cost as many Palestinian lives as to break any international support or accept a terror state on your border with the express intent of wiping you out, with increasingly sophisticated military capabilities funded by another state that believes the same thing.
We know what's happening is horrific. But the deeper question is what different paths there are, and what trade-offs a) one can accept yourself and b) Israelis could or should accept.
They both put each other in zugzwang with predictable and disastrous consequences. It is going to take extraordinary leadership, time and luck to resolve unfortunately. Sooner or later it will improve but not easy to see the path for that happening at the moment.
Some truth to that. But I think the difference is that for Hamas (as opposed to the Palestinian people and Fatah, for all the latter's flaws) the dreadful consequences for their own people are part of their strategy. Their leaders have said as much.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Basically what Corgi and Dinky Toys did to the tinplate toy car industry then: only they were UK firms.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
The OBR doesn't make any decisions, it simply assesses the macro outlook in light of the government's chosen policies and the government's chosen fiscal rules. The government makes the key decisions, like Brexit.
semantics, it's all part of the framework which constrains decision making. The OBR arent going to be passing out green lights just because its Rachel Reeves.
I do have to laugh at the @Alanbrooke position (not personal to you - its the argument). "Just buy local" is fine. If we were self-sufficient in food production. Which we are not.
I absolutely support people buying British where that is an option. Why not buy fresh lamb from Alanbrooke's local farmer vs one that Barty wants shipped frozen from NZ?
But what about all the stuff we eat which we don't produce? Or can't produce all year round? Or at a cost people are willing to pay?
I do remember some nutter interviewed before the referendum saying they would be happy eating grass of it meant leaving the EU. And that "fuck you" mentality is still there. You can't feed your familiy with sovereignty...
Britain could easily be self-sufficient in food if meat consumption decreased a bit. I look forward to Farage fronting a vegan food campaign to break Britain's reliance on food imports.
Really? I thought Britain couldn't be self-sufficient during WW2 with rationing and 20 million fewer people.
Agricultural productivity has increased a lot since WWII, and you have things like Quorn these days to act as a protein-rich meat substitute.
Livestock are a very inefficient use of land if that land is suitable for use growing grain or vegetables.
There's also the issue that we waste about 25% of all the food we buy and throw it away.
Statistics like this always astonish me. Do people not eat everything on their plate and save leftovers? I doubt we throw away more than a few percent of our food in our house.
Im afraid its true. I normally try to use everything, so any veg looking a little tired gets shoved in to a soup and used up.
Salad however has the highest disposal rate its something like 45% has a holiday in the fridge and then goes in to the bin.
It's quite noticeable that fruit and veg goes off more quickly since Brexit. Slower supply chains I imagine. Perhaps @RochdalePioneers can confirm/refute.
Cant honestly say Ive noticed that.
Statistically food waste fell during Covid presumably because people ate up what was in their fridge faster. It has now climbed back to pre Covid levels.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
"Disproportionate" is as much a technical term as the others you've mentioned. And "indiscriminate" is flat out nonsensical: even if you accept Hamas' numbers, the IDF has killed maybe three civilians for every combatant. If you accept Israel's, it's more like one for one. Given Hamas comprised maybe 1-2% of the total population at the start of the war, if they comprise 25-50% of casualties, then clearly Israel is not being indiscriminate.
So far about 30k have been killed in Gaza mainly women and children. Approx 70k have been injured and most of the 2m population have been displaced. The place itself is a ruin. Hence the mounting outside pressure on Israel to stop, despite their having considerable support at the outset.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
It wouldn’t be justified even if there was one militant who managed to infiltrate the convoy .
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
So let's play it your way. The Aid Industry rolled into Gaza and there are a zillion of them there now. All have their domestic "guides" otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in. Let's suppose there were 200 aid movements a day and of those 10% were used by the "guides" to move themselves and weapons and perhaps even hostages from A to B.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
I was absolutely on Israel's side up until the last month when it's obvious they've given up any semblance of trying to not kill innocent people.
How on Earth do you kill the wrong people THREE times? With aid sides on the roof, with prior notification? Who the Israeli Government call "the good guys"?
It seems quite obvious to me that they targeted these vehicles on purpose to stop aid getting to the people of Gaza. Their strategy is to starve them to death.
Apparently I am now an appeaser and I actually support Hamas, despite calling Hamas evil I don't know how many times. But I'll be an appeaser along with the UN, US, UK and the EU. Bart can be a war monger.
I do have to laugh at the @Alanbrooke position (not personal to you - its the argument). "Just buy local" is fine. If we were self-sufficient in food production. Which we are not.
I absolutely support people buying British where that is an option. Why not buy fresh lamb from Alanbrooke's local farmer vs one that Barty wants shipped frozen from NZ?
But what about all the stuff we eat which we don't produce? Or can't produce all year round? Or at a cost people are willing to pay?
I do remember some nutter interviewed before the referendum saying they would be happy eating grass of it meant leaving the EU. And that "fuck you" mentality is still there. You can't feed your familiy with sovereignty...
Britain could easily be self-sufficient in food if meat consumption decreased a bit. I look forward to Farage fronting a vegan food campaign to break Britain's reliance on food imports.
Really? I thought Britain couldn't be self-sufficient during WW2 with rationing and 20 million fewer people.
Agricultural productivity has increased a lot since WWII, and you have things like Quorn these days to act as a protein-rich meat substitute.
Livestock are a very inefficient use of land if that land is suitable for use growing grain or vegetables.
There's also the issue that we waste about 25% of all the food we buy and throw it away.
Statistics like this always astonish me. Do people not eat everything on their plate and save leftovers? I doubt we throw away more than a few percent of our food in our house.
Im afraid its true. I normally try to use everything, so any veg looking a little tired gets shoved in to a soup and used up.
Salad however has the highest disposal rate its something like 45% has a holiday in the fridge and then goes in to the bin.
It's quite noticeable that fruit and veg goes off more quickly since Brexit. Slower supply chains I imagine. Perhaps @RochdalePioneers can confirm/refute.
Cant honestly say Ive noticed that.
Statistically food waste fell during Covid presumably because people ate up what was in their fridge faster. It has now climbed back to pre Covid levels.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don't think we are. Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
It wouldn’t be justified even if there was one militant who managed to infiltrate the convoy .
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
So let's play it your way. The Aid Industry rolled into Gaza and there are a zillion of them there now. All have their domestic "guides" otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in. Let's suppose there were 200 aid movements a day and of those 10% were used by the "guides" to move themselves and weapons and perhaps even hostages from A to B.
Still off limits?
I doubt that aid convoy would be complicit in moving weapons or hostages . One armed militant is not justification for killing 7 aid workers .
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
As someone else has already posted, Hamas’ best recruiting sergeant ATM is Netanyahu!
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
That's very Telegraph or very UK Media - focusing on one sub-category ie Battery Electric Vehicles, and calling it "Electric Vehicles" in the only bit of the piece that shows outside the pay wall.
Then translating a slight fall in market share from 16.2% to 15.2% to "demand slows", when actually the numbers sold in that sub-category have increased by 4%, and the other electric categories are booming.
The actual graph in the piece tells a different story, as one would expect - even the caption is obvious baloney:
Are all the readers of the Telegraph Susan Hall supporters and lobotomised Taxi drivers?
Remind me - why does anyone read the Telegraph on this subject?
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
The problem with self-service checkout machines is that when they were first brought in they were a choice for the customer. Now you're almost expected to use them and staff get annoyed if you stand by the desk where they have to do the job.
Reminds me of the cash/card/cashless argument. Great if it increases choice. Not good if it ends up taking choice away.
It appears that the WCK convoy was thought by the IDF to contain an armed militant. But that the armed militant was not with the convoy but "in the warehouse".
Whatever that means.
More complete bollox to justify the unjustifiable
It wouldn’t be justified even if there was one militant who managed to infiltrate the convoy .
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
So let's play it your way. The Aid Industry rolled into Gaza and there are a zillion of them there now. All have their domestic "guides" otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in. Let's suppose there were 200 aid movements a day and of those 10% were used by the "guides" to move themselves and weapons and perhaps even hostages from A to B.
Still off limits?
I doubt that aid convoy would be complicit in moving weapons or hostages . One armed militant is not justification for killing 7 aid workers .
First off Hamas is well-documented as using everything and anything for its military purposes (eg ambulances bringing in hostages to the Al Shifa hospital). But leaving that aside, 7:1 is your red line and that is fine. But it might not be the same red line as one of the combatants. Which is also fair enough.
You and, say, @kinabalu, and our very own Horsey for sure, and plenty others have this innate sense of reasonableness and red lines, transgressions of which are beyond the pale and that also is fair enough. But do you see how for a country which believes itself to be in an existential war those red lines might be different.
Would for example you attack an aid car if there was just a driver from the aid agency and a militant carrying a rocket to his fellow combatants in there.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
Yes, and if we left the ECHR he could expropriate property without compensation as there would be no Article 1 of the Protocol to stop him. Suddenly I am in favour!
Trump’s bond payment’s been (temporarily) rejected because he didn’t file a statement of his accounts. This could be interesting as he might not be able to do one -
Looks like it's the insurer not Trump himself that's messed up and needs to provide additional details. But, it will clearly need correcting very fast. What's the deadline for returning it?
Unlike Las Vegas, what happens in Florida does not stay in Florida. This week the state’s highest court issued a pair of rulings that ought to keep Donald Trump awake at night. If any issue can bring suburban women out against him, it is reproductive freedom. The court approved one of America’s most draconian anti-abortion laws, yet also gave Floridians the chance to settle that question in November. If Democrats had scripted two rulings likelier to spur turnout, it is hard to think what they might be.
Alabama's Republican judges wrote a script for the Dems too, crashing IVF by ruling a ball of cells to be a child. That led to a special election (by-election) there with a 25% Democratic majority in a formerly Trump-voting constituency. The signs are already there that reproductive freedom is going horribly wrong for Trump and everyone down list.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
There's uncertainty but "no clue" is rather over-egging it. There is little doubt that it's many many thousands. On top of that you have the injured and displaced, also the physical carnage. We can debate those loaded labels of 'genocide' and 'ethnic cleansing' and 'collective punishment' and 'war crimes' but just for routine conversational purposes if what Israel is doing in Gaza can't be described as disproportionate and indiscriminate we're losing our grip on language.
I'm not sure what proportionate would look like and I suspect no one else does either. Would it have been 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000. I'm not sure I know beyond gut feel and that's no basis for international law, much as I think my stomach rumblings ought to be.
Then you have the indiscriminate. One thing we have seen from the WCK tragedy, and also the Al Shifa hospital just recently (no civilians killed only Hamas customer service agents), is that whatever is going on it isn't indiscriminate.
So we are back to loaded labels one way or the other. And arguing the toss about it.
It's not debatable (imo) whether the response can be called indiscriminate/disproportionate but it very much is debatable *why* it is.
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
For (2) I have no idea. (Was it?) @Endillion who said that if someone else took over the war wouldn't stop.
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
What I'm hearing from Israel is that - yes the strike was a mistake. But if someone in an aid agencies' wife's cousin happens to have joined Hamas and is within half a mile of your aid convoy then Israel can't take any chances and simply must destroy your vehicles in an air strike to make sure there's no chance a Hamas operative was within that convoy. Better safe to blow up 7 innocent people than sorry let one terrorist escape who may or may not be in the vehicle. I think our own Barty has encapsulated well the argument Netanyahu and the IDF use repeatedly here.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Selfish and hypocritcal perhaps, but not appalling. A lot of humans are pretty selfish and hypocritcal by default, so hard to be appalled by such behaviour imo.
Yes I understand people can be selfish . Leave voters should not be allowed an EU passport . If they voted to leave it , then they should lose their FOM rights .
Who are all of these people who have been denied a job in the EU? I don't know a single person who has.
I have had plenty of patients who have had to change their retirement plans.
Still, who wouldn't prefer eating Turnips in Skeggy to Paella in Marbella for their retirement?
Presumably the Spanish set their income thresholds so that retirees are not a burden on the Spanish people. Since we’re calling people selfish on this thread, dumping yourself on a country in retirement knowing you’re likely to be a net cost to them would be an example of selfishness.
I'm not sure that "net cost" applies to health - there is an international system of balancing-up payments.
If you move to an EU country or Switzerland and you receive a UK State Pension, you may be entitled to state healthcare paid for by the UK.
I suspect we get bent over on that, since aiui the NHS is not set up routinely to charge bills for any treatment to anyone, and Doctors' organisations afaics fight the suggestion like a pack of cornered American Bully fighting dogs.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Brexit didn't deliver power to a bunch of numpties.
If you mean the Conservatves, they were in power already. If you mean Johnson et al, it was the denial of Brexit that delivered power to them. If the Labour party had backed Theresa May in the national interest, then the 2019 European election debacle wouldn't have happened, Farage wouldn't have had a platform and Johnson wouldn't have come to power.
Sadly the Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer was perhaps more concerned with his own personal ascent.
That's semi-fair comment but you can't go blaming the opposition for not bailing out a government failing to deliver its own key policy in a sane and ordered fashion.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
Agree totally. Let's all call for Egypt to open its borders to them.
Yes. As we all know the Sinai is a hospitable welcoming oasis of unlimited and plentiful food. And a mass refugees into neighbouring countries would NEVER resulted in the destabilisation of those states. It's all gone swimmingly in the past. Similarly we should let in all refugees on our border.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The same people making the key decisions will still be in place - civil service BoE OBR - only the front of house faces will change.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
What I'm hearing from Israel is that - yes the strike was a mistake. But if someone in an aid agencies' wife's cousin happens to have joined Hamas and is within half a mile of your aid convoy then Israel can't take any chances and simply must destroy your vehicles in an air strike to make sure there's no chance a Hamas operative was within that convoy. Better safe to blow up 7 innocent people than sorry let one terrorist escape who may or may not be in the vehicle. I think our own Barty has encapsulated well the argument Netanyahu and the IDF use repeatedly here.
I hear there may be a Hamas operative operating out of Warrington. Best nuke the place from orbit, just to be sure.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don't think we are. Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
Oh, come off it.
You're comparing the democratically elected leaders of a UK-style social democracy - many of whom have been in power for decades - with genocidal maniacs who, when they're not having young women raped to death in fields or torturing children in front of their parents, are murdering political opponents on their own side and using the chaos thus created to throw gay people off buildings.
if you (still singular) actually, legitimately believe that's a fair comparison, then it is reasonable to assume you are coming to the debate with some sort of in-built bias.
For the record, although I doubt you care much, it is overwhelmingly more likely that bias has arisen as a result of the media you've consumed, than some sort of personal defect. But still, bias.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
This is not strange. It's the whole point. Which is why the people who say they dislike (or like) Brexit because of the government it happened under are short-termists.
If you only like democracy when your side is winning, you don't like it at all.
Strangely, Brexit has allowed SKS to be far more radical. He could now do wholesale nationalisations if he wishes, including the railways without any EU loops to jump through.
This is not strange. It's the whole point. Which is why the people who say they dislike (or like) Brexit because of the government it happened under are short-termists.
If you only like democracy when your side is winning, you don't like it at all.
I don't think Brexit was worth it, even allowing him to be more radical.
Of course. The early adopter phase is done, and cheaper EVs have yet to hit the market in any volume.
If something like the Kia Ray EV was on the market in the UK, I'd buy one tomorrow. It isn't, so I'll continue to run my old jalopy.
Most of the big new battery factories are a year or so later than planned; hence the hiatus. The winners from that will be the Chinese ... and Toyota.
Only time will tell. The Germans are pushing hard to slow the whole EV thing down. I suspect we will follow their lead.
Quite something for a Brexiter to admit.
Our car industry needs the breathing space too. Or cant you understand that ?
You've been lecturing poor RP all morning oin how he - although he is not a farmer - should make the farming industry get off its collective arse at once and start buccaneering - not your word, not that I recall, but certainly a very strong element of marketing Brexit. Now you think the UK car industry should be treated differently? That's what did it in in the first place, whining that it needed a breathjing space while all those Japanese cars were beginning to hog the market.
Which car industry does he think we need to protect? Volkswagen?
There are two revolutions happening in the car industry. Electrification is the one everyone can see - and UK production is either well equipped (LEVC, Nissan, Rolls Royce) or doomed (JLR).
The other one which not everyone has yet grasped is gigacasting. Tesla have reimagined what a car is and how it is built - two big casts at either end and a structural battery pack which you assemble the interior onto. Stronger, cheaper and faster than the way most cars are made. China has leapt on this, as have Toyota.
Look at profitability, in an industry which has been going slowly (and repeatedly) bankrupt for several decades. Legacy manufacturers cling to their lengthy model development processes and vast array of parts construction whilst the new guys develop and bring to market cars which actually make money.
Lol says the man working for the high margin supermarkets. Which chain will go bust first ?
Morrisons.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
Current Vauxhall Corsas seem to be about 20-25% off on Carwow, so I'm sure they will manage something.
I think it’s appalling to vote Leave and keep your FOM rights by using a second EU passport .
You voted to deny that freedom to others . Many were devastated to lose those rights.
Maybe you should get more meaning to your life.
You voted to deny others FOM and swan around using your EU passport . Shame on you ! If you don’t see why your position might piss people off then you really are deluded .
People vote to deny me all sorts of things, Its part and parcel of what goes with a democracy. If you feel that strongly move to somewhere in the EU.
UK elections tend to effect people domestically . What exactly have you been denied ? I’m a dual national and have an EU passport . I class myself as very lucky . I didn’t vote to screw others who wanted that freedom. If you hated the EU so much to leave why are you taking advantage of an EU benefit ?
Ive had an Irish passport for nearly 30 years long before Brexit. As for why I voted out you have just jumped to your own conclusions I dont hate the EU and could have been persuaded to stay in. But seeing how successive governments acted whilst in left me wishing to come out,
We await that improvement in government behaviour you were looking for. Not spotted as yet.
Agreed, we;ll have another round of twattery until the nation gets fed up with it all.
Well it's gone the other way so far. Our quality of government has got worse because Brexit itself delivered power to a bunch of numpties.
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
Yes that's the real tragedy of Brexit - a crazy idea promoted by deluded fantasists like Patrick Minford and Daniel Hannan was adopted by a bunch of shallow opportunists led by Johnson because they (correctly) thought it was a useful vehicle that would propel them to positions of power that they were quite incapable of gaining on merit.
I repeat my earlier point. If you think this, you must be livid with the Labour Party for whipping MPs to go through the lobby with them to vote down Theresa May’s deal. Everything that has happened since 2019 flows directly from the decision of Corbyn and Starmer to oppose May’s deal.
That judgment has the benefit of hindsight, it was not clear at the time that voting down May's deal would lead to a worse outcome.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
Agree totally. Let's all call for Egypt to open its borders to them.
Yes. As we all know the Sinai is a hospitable welcoming oasis of unlimited and plentiful food. And a mass refugees into neighbouring countries would NEVER resulted in the destabilisation of those states. It's all gone swimmingly in the past. Similarly we should let in all refugees on our border.
Yes, in the same way as all legal refugees to the UK are housed in airports and train stations, and the illegal ones are made to live in tents on beaches.
Oh, we rent hotel rooms for them all over the country and put on free transportation? Good grief.
Come back with an argument that doesn't entirely blow all international conventions on refugees out the water if you apply it to any other conflict.
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
Will Egypt open its border to save them ?
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
I only care about getting totally innocent people the food they need to survive. Do you?
I somehow think there more to your position than undying altruism.
Okay Mr "Brooke", please illuminate us all.
Well as a Corbynista I cant imagine you as a subscriber to the Jewish Chronicle. The onus will always be on Israel and never on the twats who kicked the whole goddamn mess off.
I was skim reading the...... altercation............ between CorrectHorseBattery and Barty Roberts last night.
I must admit I'm somewhat in CHB's favour here. Israel has gone far to far with its response to 7th October. Their is no justification to destroying aid convoys and killing aid workers. And I don't believe them when they say it was an accident. It wasn't, and they know it.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we will all agree on.
No. We all don't.
OK, a fair point.
I'll reconfirm.
Barty's point is that Hamas must be destroyed, which I think we all ( except @Dura_Ace ) agree on.
If must means accepting Barty's half a million dead, then no, we can't.
This is a statement taken out of context. On my original post I caveated that by questioning Bart's collateral value to achieve his aim. I was specific in that I last night asked Bart for numbers. He declined and simply retorted with "whatever it takes".
Here's the context.
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4736911/#Comment_4736911 BartholomewRoberts Mexicanpete said: » show previous quotes 1. Bollocks it is! 2. At what cost in lives, give me a number (whatever it takes isn't a number). 3. I said pushing bastards out of windows and the like. Have you never seen Munich? 4. 1. Yes it is. 2. Whatever it takes. The death toll of the Iraq War was over a quarter of a million, and this is an order of magnitude more justified than that war, so lets say double that half a million? If that's what it takes? 3. Real life isn't a James Bond movie. Pushing a few people out of windows won't end Hamas.
Thank you. I had lost interest after "whatever it takes" and ignored the value figure and gone to bed.
Half a million is good to know. So we are at circa 10% down so far.
Life must be cheap on Merseyside.
Top marks for reading to the end.
"Official" death toll (possibly exaggerated) is around 32,000, and of that, between a quarter and a half (depending on whether you believe Israel or Hamas - and potentially the difference is who counts as a terrorist and who doesn't) are Hamas members.
Presumably the half million was meant as civilians, and Hamas members do not count towards it.
So no, we are nowhere near "10% down so far" - more like 4%. And IDF operational efficiency is getting better as the war goes on - for example, there were no civilian deaths recorded during the recent Shifa hospital operation. And all the heavy bombing has been done for a while - you'll notice the death toll has remained fairly static for some time. There is no way the death toll ends up anywhere near half a million.
Considering the level of destruction of buildings and of social and health infrastructure that 32 000 deaths is likely to be a significant underestimate.
Considering the identity of the people providing the number, it's likely to be a significant overestimate. And again, you need to deduct the terrorists, since Hamas is including them in the total.
The only thing I know for certain about the actual number of civilians dead, is you have no clue.
The amount of destruction of buildings is well documented. Do you think they were all empty at the time?
How many functioning hospitals in Gaza are there that can manage a heart attack or diabetic coma? Probably none
I suspect the indirect casualties, "excess deaths" if you prefer, will far exceed the direct deaths from military action.
I have not cited Hamas estimates, but the scale of destruction is obvious.
The IDF has whole divisions of people dedicated to getting people out of buildings before it bombs them. They've also gotten very good at hitting the exact part of the building they need in order to take out the target, whilst doing as little damage to the rest of the building and its occupants as possible.
Even during the current conflict, there's been a steady stream of patients from Gaza with complex medical conditions being treated in Israeli hospitals, or transferred to Egypt.
You haven't got a clue what you're talking about.
There are no independent journalists in Gaza, so how could we ?
Excellent point. I guess you have no choice but to swallow every bit of antisemitic bullshit you find on social media, then.
Please provide some justification for that comment.
I meant "you" in the plural sense - plenty of commenters have accused Israel of deliberately targeting the aid workers, and that's just in the last day. Even if ultimately that proves to be correct, it's exactly the same jumping to conclusions that happened with the hospital-bombing-that-wasn't, back in October.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don't think we are. Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
Oh, come off it.
You're comparing the democratically elected leaders of a UK-style social democracy - many of whom have been in power for decades - with genocidal maniacs who, when they're not having young women raped to death in fields or torturing children in front of their parents, are murdering political opponents on their own side and using the chaos thus created to throw gay people off buildings.
if you (still singular) actually, legitimately believe that's a fair comparison, then it is reasonable to assume you are coming to the debate with some sort of in-built bias.
For the record, although I doubt you care much, it is overwhelmingly more likely that bias has arisen as a result of the media you've consumed, than some sort of personal defect. But still, bias.
It's you that's making the comparison.
I wouldn't argue with your description of Hamas - but that doesn't make Netenyahu not a sociopath.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-gaza-action-has-bordered-on-reckless-says-ex-mi6-chief
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3gllgwxwyyo
Edit: alright, here's the BBC on the former:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079
We may be stuck with Mad Lizzie for a while longer though...
Honestly, how can American voters elect as President somebody who doesn't even know the difference between 'prophetic' and 'pathetic'?
Unlike Las Vegas, what happens in Florida does not stay in Florida. This week the state’s highest court issued a pair of rulings that ought to keep Donald Trump awake at night. If any issue can bring suburban women out against him, it is reproductive freedom. The court approved one of America’s most draconian anti-abortion laws, yet also gave Floridians the chance to settle that question in November. If Democrats had scripted two rulings likelier to spur turnout, it is hard to think what they might be.
https://www.ft.com/content/474af1ea-28e7-43d4-850d-310d37c3a000
Bigamy is illegal and I’m married to an American. I speak excellent Spanish (my mother taught it), reasonable French, and some Italian. I did in fact spent time working France when younger. Something I can’t do again thanks to you. Neither can people younger than me. But you don’t care, like all Tories, about anyone else.
And the astonishing hypocrisy of you, of all people, criticising someone for “moaning” is obvious.
I don't know what the rules are for applying for an Irish passport as a Northern Ireland resident, but you might not even have to leave the UK.
I work for who?
I don't.
Back to the point. What cars do we make in the UK? Nissan, Toyota, Vauxhall, JLR, LEVC and then the specialists. I fear for JLR but that has nothing to do with EVs. The rest are fine.
The challenge for all of them is going to be adaption of the new way to build cars. Toyota are on it with gigacasting investment, and Stellantis can churn out electrified mass market cars which sell fine at £20k. They'll need to make them cheaper as £20k is a big discount vs the £32k+ they want to sell a Corsa for.
Its Volkswagen who are the deepest shit. Financially in poor shape after dieselgate. With an electric drivetrain which is poor and a rapidly declining reputation for build quality. Legacy manufacturers need to invest to keep up with the new way to build cars or they will be sunk. If the suggestion from free marketeers like yourself is protectionism, then good luck. Europe would resemble East Germany - a protected market for cars which are the 2025 equivalent of the Trabant.
https://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/2016/06/10/netanyahu-makes-another-visit-to-moscow/
If you are going to claim citizenship based on marrying someone Irish you need to be resident in RoI for a defined period.
Although he's much better at losses.
I'm not going make the same assumption about Endillion that they appear to have made about me.
At a guess, they had intelligence Hamas were using that convoy as a front to move their people around. If so, then it seems at the moment that intelligence was faulty. It doesn't change anything about the conflict, and it's hardly unsurprising that accidents of that nature happen in war zones. Indeed, they become more likely when your opponents are flouting all the rules of warfare by routinely using aid convoys in such a way, and a credulous Western audience closes their eyes to the abuses.
https://carswitch.com/newsroom/volkswagen-renault-collaboration-affordable-evs/
Which is why it's not just the foul Israeli right that support the war but the general population who also want Netanyahu and his cronies (and will kick them out when get a vote) out for mismanaging things in the first place and continuing to.
If you replaced Netanyahu with Yair Lapid tomorrow there would not be an immediate ceasefire. Meanwhile, the West Bank will take *a long* time to sort out. Vital, but not part of the immediate Hamas-inspired crisis.
And it is important to put it in such stark terms because that is how the Israelis view it. As existential. Certainly after 7 October, they taken Hamas' rhetoric about wiping out Jews from the Middle East and that they'd do 7 October again and again quite literally and with justification. And for that matter Iran's and its intention to keep arming them.
Therefore *any* serious effort at peace that goes beyond grandstanding and Western politicians being able to feel good needs to take that into account and offer alternative options to Israel continuing until it has destroyed Hamas, and Hamas trying to ensure as many Palestinians as possible die before they are destroyed.
Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula: South Africa parliament speaker charged with 12 counts of corruption https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-68726891
Still, at least I'm expecting better after they're kicked out. You otoh ...
The incoming Labour government will have the freedom to do a bit of Socialism, without falling foul of EU diktats.
Whether they take that opportunity is something to be revealed.
But I went through your (singular) comment history and you (again singular) yesterday described Israel's leaders as "sociopaths with no regard for human life", so I think we're even.
I don’t think the west would expect a sudden change in terms of Israel’s war aims re Hamas .
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/rejected-and-returned-for-correction-docs-for-trumps-175m-bond-get-bounced/amp/
The European car industry bet the farm on diesel and lost. Now its trying to catch back lost ground. The industry isnt helped by ridiculous green targets nobody will ever meet so there will be a roll back on the earlier PR commitments. In Germany the CDU has already said it will back the car industry demands and France is quietly responding to Stedllantis and Renault. Th UK will fall in to line with these moves imo.
There are too many jobs at stake and nobody is in a mood to give the Chinese a lucky break.
Whatever that means.
If you mean the Conservatves, they were in power already. If you mean Johnson et al, it was the denial of Brexit that delivered power to them. If the Labour party had backed Theresa May in the national interest, then the 2019 European election debacle wouldn't have happened, Farage wouldn't have had a platform and Johnson wouldn't have come to power.
Sadly the Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer was perhaps more concerned with his own personal ascent.
Same evidence you have for your assertion it was an accident. None.
But you can't just murder aid workers, destroy a humanitarian shipment and cause others to stop their aid and go "Whoops! An accident!" and expect everything to be okay.
I know 'being really sorry' is all the rage in MPs circles (I'm sorry I got caught) but if Israel had dropped a nuke on (say) Cairo, would them saying "Look, I fell on the button, I didn't mean it!" justify this?
How far can I go with this 'I didn't mean it?'
If Stanislav Petrov had knocked off early, and the Soviet Union destroyed all western Europe and the continential United States, would it all be okay if Andropov had said, "Whoops! Didn't mean it?"
I know you're going to respond with some comment of 'don't be daft' but its you who is being daft.
Israel is not conducting war according to any reasonable or safe guidelines. They don't care about civilian deaths of their enemy state (possibly understandable, but still), nor do they care about civilian deaths of other states. And they seem to actively be trying to starve Gaza by denying all aid to the area.
What do they say? Either die the hero, or live long enough to become the villian?
Israel is rapidly turning into the state they most opposed..............
(Let's get a bit of Godwin in here too!)
You must clock up a lot of air miles to be on site at all these places to bring us the truth.
An interview with an ex IDF yesterday seemed to sum things up . He said previously if in doubt you didn’t give the go ahead . Now even if there’s doubt you do.
Really we should just fold it back in to the BoE.
Still off limits?
How on Earth do you kill the wrong people THREE times? With aid sides on the roof, with prior notification? Who the Israeli Government call "the good guys"?
It seems quite obvious to me that they targeted these vehicles on purpose to stop aid getting to the people of Gaza. Their strategy is to starve them to death.
Apparently I am now an appeaser and I actually support Hamas, despite calling Hamas evil I don't know how many times. But I'll be an appeaser along with the UN, US, UK and the EU. Bart can be a war monger.
Netanyahu fits that description, as do some of his cabinet.
If you regard criticism of Israel's government as antisemitic, then we don't really have a basis on which to argue.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68728378
There we go, the Israeli objective is on its way: they will starve thousands of people to death.
A man has been found guilty of murdering a police officer by planning the armed robbery in which she was shot dead almost 20 years ago.
Piran Ditta Khan, 75, spent nearly two decades evading justice for his part in the killing of PC Sharon Beshenivsky in Bradford on 18 November 2005.
Khan, who was extradited from Pakistan last year, was the last of seven men involved in the robbery to face trial.
Will Hamas lay down its weapons ?
IMO the 2 factors explaining this are (1) There is a large 'vengeance' aspect to it. Given Oct 7th was so horrific the payback had to be off the scale. (2) Netanyahu is using the war to cling to power.
Utterly despicable government.
Then translating a slight fall in market share from 16.2% to 15.2% to "demand slows", when actually the numbers sold in that sub-category have increased by 4%, and the other electric categories are booming.
The actual graph in the piece tells a different story, as one would expect - even the caption is obvious baloney:
Are all the readers of the Telegraph Susan Hall supporters and lobotomised Taxi drivers?
Remind me - why does anyone read the Telegraph on this subject?
You and, say, @kinabalu, and our very own Horsey for sure, and plenty others have this innate sense of reasonableness and red lines, transgressions of which are beyond the pale and that also is fair enough. But do you see how for a country which believes itself to be in an existential war those red lines might be different.
Would for example you attack an aid car if there was just a driver from the aid agency and a militant carrying a rocket to his fellow combatants in there.
Where's the pressure on Hamas, the thugs who hold their own people hostage ?
As for (1) Israel has always used disproportionate force when attacked. I can remember on the news for decades that its response would usually be more forceful than the initial attack. It is something I presume they hope will have a deterrent effect. A forlorn hope, it seems.
Hamas of course is well aware of this and as @Stark_Dawning so memorably and acutely noted at the outset, the current state of affairs seems to be precisely the outcome that Hamas wanted from its Oct 7th incursion.
Better safe to blow up 7 innocent people than sorry let one terrorist escape who may or may not be in the vehicle. I think our own Barty has encapsulated well the argument Netanyahu and the IDF use repeatedly here.
If you move to an EU country or Switzerland and you receive a UK State Pension, you may be entitled to state healthcare paid for by the UK.
You'll need to apply for a certificate of entitlement known as an S1 form. S1 forms show that your state healthcare is paid for by the UK if you live in an EU country or Switzerland.
https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/healthcare-abroad/moving-abroad/planning-your-healthcare/
I suspect we get bent over on that, since aiui the NHS is not set up routinely to charge bills for any treatment to anyone, and Doctors' organisations afaics fight the suggestion like a pack of cornered American Bully fighting dogs.
You're comparing the democratically elected leaders of a UK-style social democracy - many of whom have been in power for decades - with genocidal maniacs who, when they're not having young women raped to death in fields or torturing children in front of their parents, are murdering political opponents on their own side and using the chaos thus created to throw gay people off buildings.
if you (still singular) actually, legitimately believe that's a fair comparison, then it is reasonable to assume you are coming to the debate with some sort of in-built bias.
For the record, although I doubt you care much, it is overwhelmingly more likely that bias has arisen as a result of the media you've consumed, than some sort of personal defect. But still, bias.
If you only like democracy when your side is winning, you don't like it at all.
Oh, we rent hotel rooms for them all over the country and put on free transportation? Good grief.
Come back with an argument that doesn't entirely blow all international conventions on refugees out the water if you apply it to any other conflict.
I wouldn't argue with your description of Hamas - but that doesn't make Netenyahu not a sociopath.
And again, the ad hominem.
I'm done arguing with you.