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Parking the bus or “to the Arsenal one nil” – politicalbetting.com

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  • isamisam Posts: 41,334
    edited December 2023

    If it's so obvious, it shouldn't take you long to explain it.
    How many of the two killers of Lee Rigby and the four 7/7 bombers would have lived in England had it not been for the mass immigration that Enoch Powell said would have dire consequences?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,269
    tlg86 said:

    Excellent thread header, thanks Foxy.

    Glad you liked it. The football analogy is a bit of fun, and all analogies can be over done.

    It's been a good day for Sunak's Southampton as Leeds lost and Ipswich drew Leicester in a gripping game.

    Not even @isam seemed it worthy of comment that I mentioned Osama Bin Laden as an Arsenal fan...

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/3016918/Osama-bin-Ladens-Highbury-days.html
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    Something that Christopher Hitchens would have noticed too, if he has better credentials than Enoch Powell?
    Hitchens was critical of Catholicism, as well as of Islam. He was critical of all religion. Of course, Protestant/Catholic feuding has killed far more people in the UK than Islamist terrorism.

    Terrorism has been committed in the UK by Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and atheists, and probably others. Hugh Franklin was Jewish, if he counts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751
    isam said:

    How many of the two killers of Lee Rigby and the four 7/7 bombers would have lived in England had it not been for the mass immigration that Enoch Powell said would have dire consequences?
    Powell was, like the Tiber, foaming with much shit.
    https://www.liquidadventuring.com/2015/05/07/romes-tiber-river-is-it-safe/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    Hitchens was critical of Catholicism, as well as of Islam. He was critical of all religion. Of course, Protestant/Catholic feuding has killed far more people in the UK than Islamist terrorism.

    Terrorism has been committed in the UK by Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and atheists, and probably others. Hugh Franklin was Jewish, if he counts.
    He was specifically critical of Islam because it poses a practical threat in the present day in a way that the other religions don't. Whataboutism about the past is just a way to avoid the issue and seek refuge in phony universalism.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,218
    Nigelb said:

    Powell was, like the Tiber, foaming with much shit.
    https://www.liquidadventuring.com/2015/05/07/romes-tiber-river-is-it-safe/
    I thought we were taking about Indiana Jones, not Marathon Man?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    How many of the two killers of Lee Rigby and the four 7/7 bombers would have lived in England had it not been for the mass immigration that Enoch Powell said would have dire consequences?
    How many of the Irish Republican terrorists who lived in England would have lived in England had they or their parents/grandparents not immigrated to England? Far more terrorism was committed by people who have been in the UK for generations or by Irish immigrants. So, why was Enoch Powell, and why are you, concerned about one sort of immigration and not another sort of immigration?

    There are bad people in the world who become radicalised by extreme ideologies. Some of them are native-born, some are immigrants. The UK has suffered hugely from homegrown terrorism. The solution to terrorism is not to enact Powellite immigration laws.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,483
    Scott_xP said:

    Only 6 per cent of voters think the Conservatives have done a good job in government, but fears about Labour are holding back Sir Keir Starmer, a poll has found.

    The YouGov survey for The Times found that only 15 per cent of people think the Tories are fit for office, and half of all voters say they would never vote Conservative under any circumstances.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/only-6-percent-of-voters-think-tories-have-done-a-good-job-wp8wmq2wl

    Starmer knows, as Blair did, the need to reassure is paramount. He needs to continue to reassure former Conservative voters the Labour Party he leads is a) far removed from that led by Jeremy Corbyn and b) is a social democratic party of the centre left who will basically do a lot of what is already being done but better.

    The radicalism (if there is any) will be slowly drip-fed into legislation in the second term - the first term will be undoing the excesses of the Conservative years - it's not about turning the clock back to 2010 but dealing with those areas of "low hanging fruit" whose repeal will be popular.

    I'll be interested to see if Starmer returns to Parliament the respionsibilities and powers which Johnson took to Whitehall and the Cabinet Office - I'm not hopeful as Labour are every bit as centralising as the Conservatives.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    How many of the Irish Republican terrorists who lived in England would have lived in England had they or their parents/grandparents not immigrated to England? Far more terrorism was committed by people who have been in the UK for generations or by Irish immigrants. So, why was Enoch Powell, and why are you, concerned about one sort of immigration and not another sort of immigration?

    There are bad people in the world who become radicalised by extreme ideologies. Some of them are native-born, some are immigrants. The UK has suffered hugely from homegrown terrorism. The solution to terrorism is not to enact Powellite immigration laws.
    "Inter-ethnic grievances can happen anywhere, therefore we should be relaxed about importing new ones."

    Ironically it is you who appears to be in the grip of a religous belief, which is all the more fervent for being superficially secular.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    He was specifically critical of Islam because it poses a practical threat in the present day in a way that the other religions don't. Whataboutism about the past is just a way to avoid the issue and seek refuge in phony universalism.
    Take a look at the last 5 entries at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain They are neo-Nazi, neo-Nazi, unidentified, white supremacist and white supremacist. It looks to me that the greatest practical terrorism threat today is from far right ideology. Across my lifetime, the greatest practical terrorism threat, by a huge margin, was Irish republican terrorism.

    To be honest, the terrorism that has most frightened me personally is Christian, but that's because my dad works in the abortion field in the US.
  • Take a look at the last 5 entries at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain They are neo-Nazi, neo-Nazi, unidentified, white supremacist and white supremacist. It looks to me that the greatest practical terrorism threat today is from far right ideology. Across my lifetime, the greatest practical terrorism threat, by a huge margin, was Irish republican terrorism.

    To be honest, the terrorism that has most frightened me personally is Christian, but that's because my dad works in the abortion field in the US.
    Right-wing politics is the new Communism.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,778
    Cookie said:

    That is another film that my wife finds astonishing that I have not watched.
    (I mean, she finds it astonishing that I haven't watched it. Not that she finds tge film astonishing. Though she quite liked it, I think.)
    So long as you don’t feed them after midnight you should be ok
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "New poll puts Geert Wilders’ PVV on 30% as voters desert VVD"

    https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/12/new-poll-puts-geert-wilders-pvv-on-30-as-voters-desert-vvd/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334
    edited December 2023

    How many of the Irish Republican terrorists who lived in England would have lived in England had they or their parents/grandparents not immigrated to England? Far more terrorism was committed by people who have been in the UK for generations or by Irish immigrants. So, why was Enoch Powell, and why are you, concerned about one sort of immigration and not another sort of immigration?

    There are bad people in the world who become radicalised by extreme ideologies. Some of them are native-born, some are immigrants. The UK has suffered hugely from homegrown terrorism. The solution to terrorism is not to enact Powellite immigration laws.
    Did many of them live in England? You said 3500 people died in the troubles; how many of those deaths were in England

    I don’t believe that mass immigration of Irish people to England was the cause of IRA terrorism, I don’t think many people claim that. You are conflating an ongoing situation between British and Ireland with mass immigration from Islamic countries when they’re not the same
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    "Inter-ethnic grievances can happen anywhere, therefore we should be relaxed about importing new ones."

    Ironically it is you who appears to be in the grip of a religous belief, which is all the more fervent for being superficially secular.
    I absolutely think we should tackle inter-ethnic grievances. Enoch Powell, it seems to me, was someone who encouraged inter-ethnic grievances. Those who insist there is a great threat from Islamist terrorism in this country, but ignore the remainder of the history of terrorism in this country, seem to me to be encouraging inter-ethnic grievances.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,677
    edited December 2023
    isam said:

    Did many of them live in England? You said 3500 people died in the troubles; how many of those deaths were in England
    125 in Britain.

    https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/sutton/crosstabs.html
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630

    "Inter-ethnic grievances can happen anywhere, therefore we should be relaxed about importing new ones."

    Ironically it is you who appears to be in the grip of a religous belief, which is all the more fervent for being superficially secular.
    The spectre of Irish Republican terrorism has greatly receded (in England at least) over the last 20 years. Arguably the biggest distinction between the IRA and Islamist inspired terrorism is the desired outcomes. The IRA want a unified Ireland. Islamic terrorists seem to hate the West and it’s way of life, despite often being second or third generation of immigrants.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    Did many of them live in England? You said 3500 people died in the troubles; how many of those deaths were in England
    125.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630

    Take a look at the last 5 entries at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain They are neo-Nazi, neo-Nazi, unidentified, white supremacist and white supremacist. It looks to me that the greatest practical terrorism threat today is from far right ideology. Across my lifetime, the greatest practical terrorism threat, by a huge margin, was Irish republican terrorism.

    To be honest, the terrorism that has most frightened me personally is Christian, but that's because my dad works in the abortion field in the US.
    Slightly selective reporting - waht about the sixth, seventh and eighth?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    Take a look at the last 5 entries at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain They are neo-Nazi, neo-Nazi, unidentified, white supremacist and white supremacist. It looks to me that the greatest practical terrorism threat today is from far right ideology. Across my lifetime, the greatest practical terrorism threat, by a huge margin, was Irish republican terrorism.

    To be honest, the terrorism that has most frightened me personally is Christian, but that's because my dad works in the abortion field in the US.
    To use your own argument, you need to put numbers into perspective and think of the threat in qualitative terms.

    As an individual, your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack from any source are smaller than your chances of being killed in a car accident, but some times of political violence pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society you would like to live in and others don't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751
    edited December 2023

    "Inter-ethnic grievances can happen anywhere, therefore we should be relaxed about importing new ones."

    Ironically it is you who appears to be in the grip of a religous belief, which is all the more fervent for being superficially secular.
    It was nearly four decades between Powell’s speech, for which Heath rightly canned him, and 7/7. To say Powell ‘predicted’ it was balls.

    His other prediction - “That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect.” - is self evidently still nonsense.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,321
    isam said:

    You’ve got it, not like that.

    If Brexit was about sovereignty, (which I don’t think it was, it was about immigration) it wasn’t about the public voting for it so MPs could then vote against it, which would be absolutely ludicrous.

    Brexit was 17m different things to 17m voters. It's main benefit of course was it paved the way for a long Boris Johnson premiership, only he fluffed his lines.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334

    125.
    How many of the IRA terrorists lived in England?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334
    Nigelb said:

    It was nearly four decades between Powell’s speech, for which Heath rightly canned him, and 7/7. To say Powell ‘predicted’ it was balls.

    His other prediction - “That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect.” - is self evidently still nonsense.
    So it is



  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853
    edited December 2023
    Nigelb said:

    It was nearly four decades between Powell’s speech, for which Heath rightly canned him, and 7/7. To say Powell ‘predicted’ it was balls.

    His other prediction - That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. - is self evidently still nonsense.
    With every year that goes by, American-style racial politics play a bigger and bigger role in our society. The mythologisation of "the Windrush generation" is actively fostering a growing sense of grievance among people who believe that they "built this country".
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,269
    edited December 2023
    isam said:

    How many of the IRA terrorists lived in England?
    Nearly all of them lived in the UK, which is our country, certainly Powell thought so.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    Slightly selective reporting - waht about the sixth, seventh and eighth?
    I was looking at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain#Arrests,_detentions,_and_other_incidents_related_to_the_Terrorism_Acts list, to be specific. Sixth was Islamist, seventh neo-Nazi, eighth Irish republican, ninth unclear, and tenth Islamist.

    So, that 5 far right incidents, 2 Islamist, 2 unclear, and 1 Irish republican. You can check other lists or go further back.

    To put this into perspective, there are about 240 deaths per year from drunk driving in the UK. There are about 0.5 deaths per year from terrorism in the UK.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296

    Slightly selective reporting - waht about the sixth, seventh and eighth?
    Well, the 7th was:
    Three men, including two serving British soldiers, were arrested and later charged with several offences relating to membership of the neo-Nazi National Action terrorist organisation and preparing for acts of terrorism
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    To use your own argument, you need to put numbers into perspective and think of the threat in qualitative terms.

    As an individual, your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack from any source are smaller than your chances of being killed in a car accident, but some times of political violence pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society you would like to live in and others don't.
    That should be *some types* of political violence.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,321
    edited December 2023
    isam said:

    So it is



    If this man is a BLM terrorist threat, Jimmy Cleverly should prescribe him and.
    his party!

    P S. I wasn't aware of how many Powellites we had on this board.
  • If this man is a BLM terrorist threat, Jimmy Cleverly should prescribe him and his party!
    Nah, he should just spike SKS's drink :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,296

    With every year that goes by, American-style racial politics play a bigger and bigger role in our society. The mythologisation of "the Windrush generation" is actively fostering a growing sense of grievance among people who believe that they "built this country".
    Quite the opposite. With every year that passes race becomes less of an issue in this country. Which leaves the minority who have big hang-ups in this area nursing a sense of grievance. But that minority is becoming smaller each year imo.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334
    Foxy said:

    Nearly all of them lived in the UK, which is our country, certainly Powell thought so.
    They weren’t immigrants though were they?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    To use your own argument, you need to put numbers into perspective and think of the threat in qualitative terms.

    As an individual, your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack from any source are smaller than your chances of being killed in a car accident, but some times of political violence pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society you would like to live in and others don't.
    Some types of political violence do pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society I would like to live in, yes. In the UK, Islamist terrorism clearly does not. Very little terrorism in the UK has posed such a threat. I think Irish republican terrorism and suffragette terrorism are the only terrorist campaigns that have actually changed society in modern history in the UK.

    Far-right political violence in the US on 6 Jan, although far less fatal than 7/7, was scarier to me precisely because it represents a political violence that poses a long-term threat to our democratic society.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751
    .
    isam said:

    So it is



    Yes, as a Powell expert, you’ll be aware he wasn’t referring to performative behaviour, but intractable social prejudices.
    I’m glad to see that on this at least, we can agree.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    Some types of political violence do pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society I would like to live in, yes. In the UK, Islamist terrorism clearly does not. Very little terrorism in the UK has posed such a threat. I think Irish republican terrorism and suffragette terrorism are the only terrorist campaigns that have actually changed society in modern history in the UK.

    Far-right political violence in the US on 6 Jan, although far less fatal than 7/7, was scarier to me precisely because it represents a political violence that poses a long-term threat to our democratic society.
    This is seriously delusional. Tell the teacher from Batley who is still in hiding that our society hasn't been changed because of the threat of Islamist violence.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334

    I was looking at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain#Arrests,_detentions,_and_other_incidents_related_to_the_Terrorism_Acts list, to be specific. Sixth was Islamist, seventh neo-Nazi, eighth Irish republican, ninth unclear, and tenth Islamist.

    So, that 5 far right incidents, 2 Islamist, 2 unclear, and 1 Irish republican. You can check other lists or go further back.

    To put this into perspective, there are about 240 deaths per year from drunk driving in the UK. There are about 0.5 deaths per year from terrorism in the UK.
    Whereas in the list of prevented, foiled, & aborted attacks, eight of the last ten were Islamist

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,269
    isam said:

    They weren’t immigrants though were they?
    Neither were they Polish or Portuguese...
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630

    Well, the 7th was:
    Three men, including two serving British soldiers, were arrested and later charged with several offences relating to membership of the neo-Nazi National Action terrorist organisation and preparing for acts of terrorism
    My point was rather obvious stopping at five, like the way the media will say a specific number (up to 73) so you know damn well the 74th doesn’t fit the trend.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,630

    Some types of political violence do pose a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society I would like to live in, yes. In the UK, Islamist terrorism clearly does not. Very little terrorism in the UK has posed such a threat. I think Irish republican terrorism and suffragette terrorism are the only terrorist campaigns that have actually changed society in modern history in the UK.

    Far-right political violence in the US on 6 Jan, although far less fatal than 7/7, was scarier to me precisely because it represents a political violence that poses a long-term threat to our democratic society.
    If you dont think Islamic terrorism has changed society you are not paying attention. The farago around fluids on planes is an obvious, if minor, irritation. But every city and town centre now has anti terror attack bollards around its main shopping areas, and there is little doubt that fear of Islamic terrorism (which is probably vastly overstated) dominates the public perception.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    How many of the IRA terrorists lived in England?
    Sean McNulty is one example, born on Tyneside. Going back further, Seán Mac Stíofáin, the IRA chief of staff, was born and raised, and joined the IRA, in London. But I'm not going to research every IRA member for you. You can go and research every terrorist attack in Great Britain if you want. There are a lot of IRA/INLA ones to go through.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,079
    'Brazilian woman, 34, cuts off husband's penis and flushes it down the toilet 'after the 39-year-old bedded her 15-year-old niece'' Don't cross a Brazilian woman!
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12901191/Brazilian-woman-34-cuts-husbands-penis-flushes-toilet-39-year-old-bedded-15-year-old-niece.html#comments
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,321
    edited December 2023

    Quite the opposite. With every year that passes race becomes less of an issue in this country. Which leaves the minority who have big hang-ups in this area nursing a sense of grievance. But that minority is becoming smaller each year imo.
    Immigration generally only becomes an issue when politicians and their media shills make it an issue. The people who have the strongest views on people from overseas with darker skin tones normally live in Herefordshire or Forest of Dean market towns and have never met any.

    I will concede that immigration became a live issue in aforementioned Herefordshire or Forest of Dean market towns when oldsters had to queue at the doctor's for their daily consultation behind two or three Polish children during the accession years.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    Immigration generally only becomes an issue when politicians and their media shills make it an issue. The people who have the strongest views on people from overseas with darker skin tones normally live in Herefordshire or Forest of Dean market towns and have never met any.

    I will concede that immigration became a live issue in aforementioned Herefordshire or Forest of Dean market towns when oldsters had to queue at the doctor's for their daily consultation behind two or three Polish children during the accession years.
    With such a patronising view of the electorate, how can you support the idea of democracy? Do you want to be dictated to by these easily manipulated masses?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,224
    Scott_xP said:

    According to popular myth, almost nothing...

    The argument is that if Indiana Jones had not interfered at all, the Germans would have found the Ark without him and opened it anyway
    Better yet, they
    isam said:

    So it is



    The carpet is shocking, but not American. As far as I know.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    This is seriously delusional. Tell the teacher from Batley who is still in hiding that our society hasn't been changed because of the threat of Islamist violence.
    It is terrible that someone should have to remain in hiding. It is terrible what happened to Salman Rushdie as well. These are fortunately isolated cases. They do not demonstrate that society as a whole has been changed. I would suggest that if anyone is being delusional, it is the person suggesting that.

    Other people have to live in hiding because of the legacy of the Troubles, because of domestic violence, because of organised crime, because of transphobic violence. These are all tragedies too.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    Whereas in the list of prevented, foiled, & aborted attacks, eight of the last ten were Islamist

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain
    Terrorism that we can prevent, foil or is aborted is better terrorism to have than the other kind!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,224
    edited December 2023
    HYUFD said:
    Nope - standard industrial robot accident. They’ve been happening since automation was invented.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    My point was rather obvious stopping at five, like the way the media will say a specific number (up to 73) so you know damn well the 74th doesn’t fit the trend.
    Which is more often used as a round number, 5 or 73?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334

    Sean McNulty is one example, born on Tyneside. Going back further, Seán Mac Stíofáin, the IRA chief of staff, was born and raised, and joined the IRA, in London. But I'm not going to research every IRA member for you. You can go and research every terrorist attack in Great Britain if you want. There are a lot of IRA/INLA ones to go through.
    The point remains - IRA terror attacks in the UK weren’t the result of mass immigration of Irish people


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,321

    With such a patronising view of the electorate, how can you support the idea of democracy? Do you want to be dictated to by these easily manipulated masses?
    I am quite a fan of democracy when the electorate have the information they need to make their informed decisions. When they are lied to by politicians and the client media, that is an abuse of the democratic process. That is why when it appeared that the voter had rumbled the lies on the side of a bus, I was content for the voter to be given a second referendum.

    As it turned out they were told a second pack of lies during Campaign 2019 by a Prime Minister who convinced the electorate that he had an "oven ready deal" to get Brexit done. It turned out he didn't.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    It is terrible that someone should have to remain in hiding. It is terrible what happened to Salman Rushdie as well. These are fortunately isolated cases. They do not demonstrate that society as a whole has been changed. I would suggest that if anyone is being delusional, it is the person suggesting that.

    Other people have to live in hiding because of the legacy of the Troubles, because of domestic violence, because of organised crime, because of transphobic violence. These are all tragedies too.
    They're neither isolated cases, nor do they only affect the people directly in the firing line. In many areas of society we now have a de facto blasphemy law, which operates on fear.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,651

    Nope - standard industrial robot accident. They’ve been happening since automation was invented.
    But this one is in the Daily Mail and mentions Tesla. I think you'll find this is actually unique in human history.

    There were never any mishaps with good old fire, were there? Eh? Eh? Or blackshirts? Eh?

    Oh no! What a giveaway!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    If you dont think Islamic terrorism has changed society you are not paying attention. The farago around fluids on planes is an obvious, if minor, irritation. But every city and town centre now has anti terror attack bollards around its main shopping areas, and there is little doubt that fear of Islamic terrorism (which is probably vastly overstated) dominates the public perception.
    As you say, that more speaks to an overreaction to terrorism than the terrorism itself. Perhaps if the likes of isam and williamglenn stopped exaggerating the threat, there would be less of an overreaction!

    Those anti-terror bollards, of course, are not specific to Islamist terrorism. They began with Irish republican terrorism. Security measures in aviation pre-date Islamist terrorism too. And, annoying though they are, all of those security measures are hardly what I consider "a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society [I] would like to live in".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751

    Nope - standard industrial robot accident. They’ve been happening since automation was invented.
    Yes, the story is about deficiencies in their safety management, reported with the DM’s usual excellent comprehension and unsensational restraint.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    I am quite a fan of democracy when the electorate have the information they need to make their informed decisions. When they are lied to by politicians and the client media, that is an abuse of the democratic process. That is why when it appeared that the voter had rumbled the lies on the side of a bus, I was content for the voter to be given a second referendum.

    As it turned out they were told a second pack of lies during Campaign 2019 by a Prime Minister who convinced the electorate that he had an "oven ready deal" to get Brexit done. It turned out he didn't.
    "I'm a fan of democracy when the people agree with me, but when they don't, I become angry and look for someone to blame for putting the wrong ideas into their heads."
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    The point remains - IRA terror attacks in the UK weren’t the result of mass immigration of Irish people
    As nor was 7/7 the result of the mass immigration of Pakistani or Jamaican people. Some first or second generation immigrants, Irish, Pakistani, Jamaican and others, have committed acts of terrorism. But Enoch Powell's predictions were wrong.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334

    As you say, that more speaks to an overreaction to terrorism than the terrorism itself. Perhaps if the likes of isam and williamglenn stopped exaggerating the threat, there would be less of an overreaction!

    Those anti-terror bollards, of course, are not specific to Islamist terrorism. They began with Irish republican terrorism. Security measures in aviation pre-date Islamist terrorism too. And, annoying though they are, all of those security measures are hardly what I consider "a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society [I] would like to live in".
    Well they were only installed after the London Bridge Islamist terror attack jn 2017

    https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-security/protecting-london-s-bridges
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,224
    A

    As you say, that more speaks to an overreaction to terrorism than the terrorism itself. Perhaps if the likes of isam and williamglenn stopped exaggerating the threat, there would be less of an overreaction!

    Those anti-terror bollards, of course, are not specific to Islamist terrorism. They began with Irish republican terrorism. Security measures in aviation pre-date Islamist terrorism too. And, annoying though they are, all of those security measures are hardly what I consider "a long-term threat to the viability of the kind of society [I] would like to live in".
    Anti terror bollards were not required in every pedestrianised city centre because of the PIRA. Because the PIRA didn’t consider driving over people out shopping as a method of attack.
  • Just watched Rishi's "Home Alone" tribute.

    He's a cringe-magnet. Embarrassing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719

    They're neither isolated cases, nor do they only affect the people directly in the firing line. In many areas of society we now have a de facto blasphemy law, which operates on fear.
    Allah doesn't exist (and, if he did, he wouldn't want people to not eat bacon). I type this blasphemy without fear.

    Jesus didn't die for our sins. Yahweh didn't give the land of Israel to the Jewish people. Bahá'u'lláh did not receive a divine revelation. I could go on.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,651
    isam said:

    Well they were only installed after the London Bridge Islamist terror attack jn 2017

    https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-security/protecting-london-s-bridges
    Imagine, for a moment if you will, there is a world outside of London where things happen in reaction (and hold onto your hat) to things also not happening in London.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,334

    As nor was 7/7 the result of the mass immigration of Pakistani or Jamaican people. Some first or second generation immigrants, Irish, Pakistani, Jamaican and others, have committed acts of terrorism. But Enoch Powell's predictions were wrong.
    The breeding grounds for Islamic terrorism in the UK are the ghettoised parts of major cities that only exist thanks to the mass immigration Enoch Powell warned against
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,224
    ohnotnow said:

    Imagine, for a moment if you will, there is a world outside of London where things happen in reaction (and hold onto your hat) to things also not happening in London.
    If you go to the pedestrianised “street market” areas of big towns in the U.K., the bollards are ubiquitous.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853

    Allah doesn't exist (and, if he did, he wouldn't want people to not eat bacon). I type this blasphemy without fear.

    Jesus didn't die for our sins. Yahweh didn't give the land of Israel to the Jewish people. Bahá'u'lláh did not receive a divine revelation. I could go on.
    You may type that without fear in the saftety of anonymity here, but you would be reticent about telling it to a classroom of children in many parts of the country.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    isam said:

    Well they were only installed after the London Bridge Islamist terror attack jn 2017

    https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-security/protecting-london-s-bridges
    I meant bollards more generally, not the specific ones on London Bridge.

    The first permanent gates at the end of Downing Street were installed in 1920 in response to the threat of Irish republican terrorism. The modern gates were installed in 1989 in response to the threat of the IRA. Major restrictions to visitors to Westminster Hall were introduced following the 1885 Fenian bombing. There's a long history of security measures.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751
    NEW VIDEO: ND State Rep. Nico Rios (R) unleased a racist and homophobic rant at police during his DUI arrest, calling an officer a "f--king f--got," ranting about migrants destroying England, and threatening to call the Attorney General.
    https://twitter.com/HeartlandSignal/status/1738665613071892700
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,719
    I've got to go to sleep. I'm not entirely certain how we got onto anti-terror street architecture, but I remain of the view that Enoch Powell was wrong. We don't have rivers of blood; we do have a Conservative Party British Prime Minister whose parents were immigrants... who is terrible as Prime Minister, but that's not because his parents were immigrants.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,321

    "I'm a fan of democracy when the people agree with me, but when they don't, I become angry and look for someone to blame for putting the wrong ideas into their heads."
    That's not the case at all. When the wrong ideas are falsehoods that diminishes democracy.

    However the two politicians you fly the flags for, Johnson and Trump seem to be the most adept at campaign lying.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,838
    rcs1000 said:

    Temple of Doom is pretty awful.
    Booo, I love it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,838

    If this man is a BLM terrorist threat, Jimmy Cleverly should prescribe him and.
    his party!

    P S. I wasn't aware of how many Powellites we had on this board.
    Not sure what the current Labour Party would be prescribed for; perhaps they'd make a good cure for insomnia.
  • I also got around to watching "Leave the World Behind".

    Probably my least favourite movie in a decade. Awful.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    edited December 2023

    Wait until you get onto the submarine controversy in Raiders.
    Forget the Submarine controversy. My favourite Big Bang Theory episode is the one where Amy points out to Sheldon that the whole of ROTLA is pointless in terms of story.

    If Indiana Jones had not been there, the outcome of the film would still have been exactly as it turned out. The Nazis would still have ended up with the Ark. The Ark would still have been opened on the island and all the Nazis would still have felt the wrath of god. All Indy did was delay proceedings a little.

    Even the fact that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place at Tanis was only bacause Indy prevented them getting the staff top at the bar in the Himalayas. If he hadn't then they would have been digging in the right place from the start and so would have gained possession of the Ark even sooner.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,838

    Hopefully Harrison did too.
    This is the funniest ever remark on PB not to get squillions of likes. :|
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751

    Forget the Submarine controversy. My favourite Big Bang Theory episode is the one where Amy points out to Sheldon that the whole of ROTLA is pointless in terms of story.

    If Indiana Jones had not been there, the outcome of the film would still have been exactly as it turned out. The Nazis would still have ended up with the Ark. The Ark would still have been opened on the island and all the Nazis would still have felt the wrath of god. All Indy did was delay proceedings a little.

    Even the fact that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place at Tanis was only bacause Indy prevented them getting the staff top at the bar in the Himalayas. If he hadn't then they would have been digging in the right place from the start and so would have gained possession of the Ark even sooner.
    But it might not have ended up in a US government storage facility.

    And in any event it’s about the journey, not the destination.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    "Toyota-owned carmaker Daihatsu has closed all four of its plants until the end of January, after admitting it had falsified safety tests.

    Daihatsu admitted that it had been manipulating safety tests on 64 makes for three decades. Its headquarters in Osaka, Japan was the last to close, on 25 December. The scandal puts in jeopardy 9,000 workers in the country and could affect global car giant Toyota's reputation. Of the 64 models involved in the scandal, 24 are sold with Toyota branding."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67822887
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,295

    Nope - standard industrial robot accident. They’ve been happening since automation was invented.
    I would say something along the lines of "we don't let industrial lathes drive taxis downtown, now do we?". But it's something Warren Oates would have said in a 1980s technothriller whilst wireframe graphics spin on a CRT.

    Problem is, I dunno if that makes it better or worse... ☹️
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853
    Vivek Ramaswamy’s presidential campaign has stopped spending money on television ads and does not have any TV ad reservations booked, according to his campaign.

    https://x.com/nbcnews/status/1739753065387876747
  • MJWMJW Posts: 2,012
    isam said:

    The breeding grounds for Islamic terrorism in the UK are the ghettoised parts of major cities that only exist thanks to the mass immigration Enoch Powell warned against
    This is just an ahistorical nonsense as an excuse for prejudice. At the time Powell was speaking there wasn't 'mass immigration' as such to the UK - net migration was negative in the 60s and 70s. It was negligible until the early 1990s.

    But we needed people to fill jobs and had a post-war shortage of labour- including a large increase in doctors to staff the NHS. As a result, we drew on former parts of our Empire for labour, which included those who'd become British Asians, including a tranche of Muslims.

    So what are we arguing should have been done in the 60s? Have no admission and a population decline, labour and shortages because at some point in the future, some extremists who were yet to work out their hate-filled ideology would target them? Discriminate on the grounds of religion and race?

    If so, how many would British Muslims not constitute a risk to you as some have committed acts of terror? It being 75 years since the first British Nationality Act, allowing a relatively miniscule number of people of that faith to settle here each year would result in a significant population in at least the hundreds of thousands, at numbers that certainly don't constitute 'mass migration' in any real sense, the numbers get larger.

    You see it's not "mass migration" that's the problem. Unless you actively closed off the country in a way no advanced economy does, and that would likely cause the UK significant reputational damage. If it were even possible, then you are going to have a significant enough number of Muslims in the UK for radical iterations of that religion to create some level of threat.

    It's the emergence of deeply troublesome ideologies that can now be spread to incite people, as can the knowledge of how to kill for them. In recent years, we've seen these emerge on the far right too (look at Breivik or QAnon) - though there's little doubt that some of the darker strands of Qutb-inspired Islamism present a large threat, as they have wealthy states and groups sponsoring them.

    But that isn't 'mass migration' - that's the ideas and those who've spent decades sponsoring them. Who need taking on and being called what they are - religious fascists. Rather than the inevitable process of migration flows - which you can restrict, change or utilise, but aren't going to stop.

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,778

    Forget the Submarine controversy. My favouriet Big Bang Theory episode is the one where Amy points out to Sheldon that the whole of ROTLA is pointless in terms of story.

    If Indiana Jones had not been there, the outscome of the film would still have been exactly as it turned out. The Nazis would still have ended up with the Ark. The Ark wuld still have been opened on the island and all the Nazis would still have fealt the wrath of god. All Indy did was delay proceedings a little.

    Even the fact that the Nazis were digging in the wrong place at Tanis was only bacause Indy prevented them getting the staff top at the bar in the Himalayas. If he hadn't then they would have been digging in the right place from the start and so would have gained possession of the Ark even sooner.
    I disagree.

    The ark wouldn’t have ended up in a storage facility in Akron, Ohio
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,853
    edited December 2023
    MJW said:



    This is just an ahistorical nonsense as an excuse for prejudice. At the time Powell was speaking there wasn't 'mass immigration' as such to the UK - net migration was negative in the 60s and 70s. It was negligible until the early 1990s.

    But we needed people to fill jobs and had a post-war shortage of labour- including a large increase in doctors to staff the NHS. As a result, we drew on former parts of our Empire for labour, which included those who'd become British Asians, including a tranche of Muslims.

    So what are we arguing should have been done in the 60s? Have no admission and a population decline, labour and shortages because at some point in the future, some extremists who were yet to work out their hate-filled ideology would target them? Discriminate on the grounds of religion and race?

    If so, how many would British Muslims not constitute a risk to you as some have committed acts of terror? It being 75 years since the first British Nationality Act, allowing a relatively miniscule number of people of that faith to settle here each year would result in a significant population in at least the hundreds of thousands, at numbers that certainly don't constitute 'mass migration' in any real sense, the numbers get larger.

    You see it's not "mass migration" that's the problem. Unless you actively closed off the country in a way no advanced economy does, and that would likely cause the UK significant reputational damage. If it were even possible, then you are going to have a significant enough number of Muslims in the UK for radical iterations of that religion to create some level of threat.

    It's the emergence of deeply troublesome ideologies that can now be spread to incite people, as can the knowledge of how to kill for them. In recent years, we've seen these emerge on the far right too (look at Breivik or QAnon) - though there's little doubt that some of the darker strands of Qutb-inspired Islamism present a large threat, as they have wealthy states and groups sponsoring them.

    But that isn't 'mass migration' - that's the ideas and those who've spent decades sponsoring them. Who need taking on and being called what they are - religious fascists. Rather than the inevitable process of migration flows - which you can restrict, change or utilise, but aren't going to stop.
    This is revisionist myth-making. Initially the problem was overpopulation in certain colonies rather than labour shortages at home, and it was in some ways only by accident that a significant number of people ended up coming to Britain.

    It also seems to have been memory-holed that we had a major problem with unemployment following that period. The idea that 'the economy' is this creature that needs to be fed with an ever expanding supply of labour is just the latest dogma. You wrote earlier about the Tories 'stealing a future and smashing up the economy' but they have presided over record rates of employment and record immigration. Is that not essentially the kind of economy you advocate?

    Denmark has a policy goal of zero net migration. Has it suffered some appalling reputational damage because of it? In front of whom are you worried about our reputation?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,751
    edited December 2023
    .

    Vivek Ramaswamy’s presidential campaign has stopped spending money on television ads and does not have any TV ad reservations booked, according to his campaign.

    https://x.com/nbcnews/status/1739753065387876747

    Good.
    One down.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,295

    I disagree.

    The ark wouldn’t have ended up in a storage facility in Akron, Ohio
    (Area 51 is Groom Lake, Nevada)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 9,778

    This is revisionist myth-making. Initially the problem was overpopulation in certain colonies rather than labour shortages at home, and it was in some ways only by accident that a significant number of people ended up coming to Britain.

    It also seems to have been memory-holed that we had a major problem with unemployment following that period. The idea that 'the economy' is this creature that needs to be fed with an ever expanding supply of labour is just the latest dogma. You wrote earlier about the Tories 'stealing a future and smashing up the economy' but they have presided over record rates of employment and record immigration. Is that not essentially the kind of economy you advocate?

    Denmark has a policy goal of zero net migration. Has it suffered some appalling reputational damage because of it? In front of whom are you worried about our reputation?
    The issue is the explicit policy of multiculturalism- or “separate but equal” as it was called in another place and time.

    That lack of integration has fairly to encourage the development of a single culture
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,224
    viewcode said:

    (Area 51 is Groom Lake, Nevada)
    Warehouse 13, which some hypothesise is The Warehouse at the end of ROTLA, is in South Dakota
  • MJWMJW Posts: 2,012

    This is revisionist myth-making. Initially the problem was overpopulation in certain colonies rather than labour shortages at home, and it was in some ways only by accident that a significant number of people ended up coming to Britain.

    It also seems to have been memory-holed that we had a major problem with unemployment following that period. The idea that 'the economy' is this creature that needs to be fed with an ever expanding supply of labour is just the latest dogma. You wrote earlier about the Tories 'stealing a future and smashing up the economy' but they have presided over record rates of employment and record immigration. Is that not essentially the kind of economy you advocate?

    Denmark has a policy goal of zero net migration. Has it suffered some appalling reputational damage because of it? In front of whom are you worried about our reputation?

    That's zero net migration, not zero inward migration at all - which is what you'd have to do to ensure no one of a different faith was arriving (or discriminate). As I earlier pointed out, in the 1960s and 70s, when Powell was stirring things up - we had negative net migration. More people were leaving the UK than were arriving.

    Here, if we had no (or a miniscule) amount of inward migration at all, we could expect to lose our reputation as an educational and business hub. For a start, it would collapse the universities. Banning migration from Muslim nations of course did cause reputational damage when Trump tried it.

    That was the point. If you're saying 'mass immigration is bad because of Islamic terrorism' then given we had negative or comparatively very low net migration in the period the poster was talking about, you'd need either a policy that was incredibly restrictive to the point of barely allowing anyone in at all, or openly discriminatory. Neither is entirely plausible.

    On the latter point. The economy doesn't need an 'ever expanding supply of labour' but employers often need to plug gaps in supply where there's a shortage of skills or individuals willing to do so at the price offered.

    In the former case, it takes time to train people. If the NHS needs more doctors, you can't produce them immediately even if you put a rocket booster under the incentives to train. In the latter case it's good to increase wages and/or conditions - but there are some jobs this is difficult in for different reasons. Take seasonal agricultural work. Which naturally is much more attractive to those who don't care about putting down roots - otherwise you'll have to pay people a premium. Another case is care work - where the wages and hours are very unattractive, but councils are skint, and facing growing bills - so no one's going to sign off the kind of payrise that will push load more people into the sector.

    Longer term, of course you can solve these with technology, training, or more government or consumer spending. But right now. You're going to need migration - which is one reason why the Tories have found they can't meet promises to cut it (while having been terrible economically for numerous other reasons).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,557
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Good.
    One down.
    One of the worst against Ukraine too.

    No doubt he will advise his supporters to back Trump - in his VP bid.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,557
    Your new welcome to 2024: "zombie deer disease" - and the risk of crossover to humans.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/zombie-deer-disease-humans-cases-b2469275.html
  • I love Temple of Doom.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,264
    Going back to an earlier comment: The US was involved in WW II in the Atlantic in a low-level way, before Pearl Harbor, because we were escorting convoys. We even lost a destroyer, the Reuben James. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245)
    "At dawn on 31 October, she was torpedoed near Iceland[3] by German submarine U-552 commanded by Kapitänleutnant Erich Topp. Reuben James had positioned herself between an ammunition ship in the convoy and the known position of a German "wolfpack," a group of submarines poised to attack the convoy. The destroyer was not flying the ensign of the United States and was in the process of dropping depth charges on another U-boat when she was engaged.[4] Reuben James was hit forward by a torpedo meant for a merchant ship and her entire bow was blown off when a magazine exploded. The bow sank immediately. The aft section floated for five minutes before going down. Of a crew of seven officers and 136 enlisted men, plus one enlisted passenger, 100 were killed. That left only 44 enlisted men and no officers who survived the attack."

    (US Communists and sympathizers, who had been campaigning for us to stay out of the war before Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union, soon were singing this song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sinking_of_the_Reuben_James )

    The Japanese ambassador visited Hitler days before the Pearl Harbor attack, and asked if their agreement was still in effect: Would Germany join Japan, if Japan became involved in a a war with the US?

    Hitler assured him that Germany would, and on December 11th, declared war on the US. (Some in Roosevelt's circle wanted him to go ahead and request a declaration of war on Germany immediately after Pearl Harbor, but he wisely waited.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Good to see that, by the end of the Arsenal thread, Liverpool are back to the top of the league.
  • NEW THREAD

This discussion has been closed.