We need to talk about the smell of Trump – politicalbetting.com

Jonathan said:

Oh good grief. Just when you think politicos cannot sink further.

Is he about to market “MAGA parfum de Trump”. Could be the start of a whole new business for failing right wing politicians? Coming to the Daily Mail shopping section…

Disgrace, parfum de Truss
Piffle, pour homme, de Boris
Lifestyle, un choix de Braverman

ydoethur said:

IanB2 said:

Meanwhile in other news….

Cleverly told female guests at the reception that “a little bit of Rohypnol in her drink every night” was “not really illegal if it’s only a little bit”, the Sunday Mirror reported.

He also laughed that the secret to a long marriage was ensuring your spouse was “someone who is always mildly sedated so she can never realise there are better men out there”.

How on earth has James Cleverly gone from being a fairly successful foreign secretary to complete lunacy in about a month and a half?

He should be sacked, but I’m betting he won’t be. Too soon after the last reshuffle.

Also, if Sunak knows the extent of Keegan’s complicity in the disaster unfolding at Ofsted, he’ll be aware that another reshuffle will be needed imminently. And the recall of Hinds, one of two education secretaries in the last 13 years not to completely crash and burn, suggests he does. He can’t really afford to lose two more ministers in quick succession though.

ydoethur said:

IanB2 said:

Meanwhile in other news….

Cleverly told female guests at the reception that “a little bit of Rohypnol in her drink every night” was “not really illegal if it’s only a little bit”, the Sunday Mirror reported.

He also laughed that the secret to a long marriage was ensuring your spouse was “someone who is always mildly sedated so she can never realise there are better men out there”.

How on earth has James Cleverly gone from being a fairly successful foreign secretary to complete lunacy in about a month and a half?

He should be sacked, but I’m betting he won’t be. Too soon after the last reshuffle.

Also, if Sunak knows the extent of Keegan’s complicity in the disaster unfolding at Ofsted, he’ll be aware that another reshuffle will be needed imminently. And the recall of Hinds, one of two education secretaries in the last 13 years not to completely crash and burn, suggests he does. He can’t really afford to lose two more ministers in quick succession though.

Benpointer said:

In many ways the issue with Cleverly is not the actual words he used, it's the mentality behind it.

Stuartinromford said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Benpointer said:

In many ways the issue with Cleverly is not the actual words he used, it's the mentality behind it.

The whole thing is nuts. Perhaps I'm just a woke snowflake or have led a protected life but I was completely speechless when I read about it. Who makes "jokes" about rape? How can he keep his job? Even if he weren't in charge of policing his remarks should lead straight to a P45.

Horrible feeling that it was filed in his mind as "Matez Bantz" or "Anything is permissible as long as it makes people laugh".

See also the "if we have to publish all the off-colour WhatsApp messages, it will ruin government communication" complaints. The idea of... you know... being a bit more professional and less crude doesn't seem to have occurred to people.

OldKingCole said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

I’ve been watching politics, and sometimes been involved at a fairly low level, for over 60 years. And the answer is yes, things are worse than they were in 1996/7 and indeed worse than they have been at any time in my recollection. Even the last years of the Brown administration.

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Stuartinromford said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Benpointer said:

In many ways the issue with Cleverly is not the actual words he used, it's the mentality behind it.

The whole thing is nuts. Perhaps I'm just a woke snowflake or have led a protected life but I was completely speechless when I read about it. Who makes "jokes" about rape? How can he keep his job? Even if he weren't in charge of policing his remarks should lead straight to a P45.

Horrible feeling that it was filed in his mind as "Matez Bantz" or "Anything is permissible as long as it makes people laugh".

See also the "if we have to publish all the off-colour WhatsApp messages, it will ruin government communication" complaints. The idea of... you know... being a bit more professional and less crude doesn't seem to have occurred to people.

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Benpointer said:

In many ways the issue with Cleverly is not the actual words he used, it's the mentality behind it.

The whole thing is nuts. Perhaps I'm just a woke snowflake or have led a protected life but I was completely speechless when I read about it. Who makes "jokes" about rape? How can he keep his job? Even if he weren't in charge of policing his remarks should lead straight to a P45.

Cleverly's defence might be that rohypnol was just a lead-up to the self-deprecating punchline that his wife could do a lot better than him. (Still, he'd likely be promoted to Chief Constable if it was found in a police WhatsApp chat.) And I can think of one well-known comedy duo who joked about rohypnol on their BBC sketch show 10-20 years ago without, so far as I can recall, any great outcry.

Malmesbury said:

Stuartinromford said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Benpointer said:

In many ways the issue with Cleverly is not the actual words he used, it's the mentality behind it.

The whole thing is nuts. Perhaps I'm just a woke snowflake or have led a protected life but I was completely speechless when I read about it. Who makes "jokes" about rape? How can he keep his job? Even if he weren't in charge of policing his remarks should lead straight to a P45.

Horrible feeling that it was filed in his mind as "Matez Bantz" or "Anything is permissible as long as it makes people laugh".

See also the "if we have to publish all the off-colour WhatsApp messages, it will ruin government communication" complaints. The idea of... you know... being a bit more professional and less crude doesn't seem to have occurred to people.

There’s a small difference between having privacy to hash out policy ideas and hiding disgusting and stupid remarks.

IanB2 said:

A festive TV review (but only viewable on Sky Max and Now TV):

Hello and welcome to the daftest bit of programming for Christmas 2023. And I mean that in a good way. The Unofficial Science of Die Hard is presented by deadpan standup comedian Paul Chowdhry and less deadpan standup Chris Ramsey, who together have most daft presenting bases covered. Their festive mission is to investigate the feats performed by everyone’s favourite everyman, John McClane, in the 1988 blockbuster (set during an unfortunate Christmas party in Nakatomi Plaza) that has become a yuletide staple. Their aim is to see if they can re-enact the stunts without dying. Think of it as a movie-specific MythBusters with a dash of Taskmaster thrown in. It is ideal for children and the lightly drunk, which by this time should be most of us. Slainte!

Cicero said:

those thinking that Labour under Starmer are not as strong as they were under Blair may be right, however, when even stupid, puerile jokes trip up the Tories, then it seems that the Tories under Sunak are even weaker than they were under Major.

With the Michelle Mone scandal just beginning to move, with rumours of more beyond in the Great PPE robbery, and yet further fun scandals yet to emerge concerning other cabinet ministers this may not be the nadir for the Tories.

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I want to wish everyone a very happy and enjoyable Christmas

I find politics hugely depressing at present and Cleverly's comments unacceptable even in jest

My hopes for 2024 is an improvement in my present health issues as the three consultants I am under come up with a treatment plan, look forward to my 80th on the 29th February having only had 20 actual birthday, our diamond wedding in May, and a GE that sees the conservatives sent into opposition and the election of Starmer and Labour

I would say I have no great expectations that Starmer will resolve any of the complex issues we face today and even his most dedicated supporters must accept he is far from being a Blair for whom I voted twice

Mr Big_G sir - an improvement in both of your health issues would be a Christmas gift. For all that we enjoy the cut and thrust of politics, it is a distraction from our immediate and basic needs - health being the big one.

As for your entirely valid observations about Labour & Starmer - does it matter that there is no easy fix to the mess the country is in and that the Labour team aren't that dynamic?

If a 2023 version of Blair and his team from 1997 were the opposition then things clearly would get better in May. As it is, basic human decency would be served by removing this government. If the only substantive change is that we then get a government which isn't corrupt and immoral and sneeringly disgusted by the people of this country, isn't that worth it?

A Home Secretary who doesn't brand the town with the lowest life expectancy for women a "shithole" and instead does something to make those women live longer. A Home Secretary who doesn't find rape and marital coercion funny. That would be a positive step.

Stuartinromford said:

Nigelb said:

.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority.
The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers.
And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.

Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).

For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.

And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?

As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

Stuartinromford said:

Nigelb said:

.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority.
The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers.
And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.

Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).

For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.

And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?

As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?

Jonathan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I want to wish everyone a very happy and enjoyable Christmas

I find politics hugely depressing at present and Cleverly's comments unacceptable even in jest

My hopes for 2024 is an improvement in my present health issues as the three consultants I am under come up with a treatment plan, look forward to my 80th on the 29th February having only had 20 actual birthday, our diamond wedding in May, and a GE that sees the conservatives sent into opposition and the election of Starmer and Labour

I would say I have no great expectations that Starmer will resolve any of the complex issues we face today and even his most dedicated supporters must accept he is far from being a Blair for whom I voted twice

Mr Big_G sir - an improvement in both of your health issues would be a Christmas gift. For all that we enjoy the cut and thrust of politics, it is a distraction from our immediate and basic needs - health being the big one.

As for your entirely valid observations about Labour & Starmer - does it matter that there is no easy fix to the mess the country is in and that the Labour team aren't that dynamic?

If a 2023 version of Blair and his team from 1997 were the opposition then things clearly would get better in May. As it is, basic human decency would be served by removing this government. If the only substantive change is that we then get a government which isn't corrupt and immoral and sneeringly disgusted by the people of this country, isn't that worth it?

A Home Secretary who doesn't brand the town with the lowest life expectancy for women a "shithole" and instead does something to make those women live longer. A Home Secretary who doesn't find rape and marital coercion funny. That would be a positive step.

Good morning @RochdalePioneers

Thank you for your kind words and my present health issues do tend to override my bandwidth for political discourse

This government is tired and out of time and Starmer will be the next PM

Starmer will not have any effect on me personally and he will have a honeymoon, but I expect in due course his ministers and mps will do and say stupid things because in the end they are all politicians and it have been ever thus

This “they are all the same” meme is a small, seems to be a common thread from PB Tories. I guess it’s a way of dealing with the unprecedented disgrace of the past five years.

The truth is that politicians are not all like Truss, Boris and Sunak. Some are pretty effective and/or dedicated to service rather than their personal glory or some massive ego trip.

We can do better than this government.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stuartinromford said:

Nigelb said:

.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority.
The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers.
And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.

Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).

For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.

And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?

As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?

I think one of the most urgent issues facing a new Labour government is the triple lock and affordability of pensions

It is almost certain the pension age will have to rise, even to 75 as some economist say, and that will be hugely unpopular

RochdalePioneers said:

Jonathan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I want to wish everyone a very happy and enjoyable Christmas

I find politics hugely depressing at present and Cleverly's comments unacceptable even in jest

My hopes for 2024 is an improvement in my present health issues as the three consultants I am under come up with a treatment plan, look forward to my 80th on the 29th February having only had 20 actual birthday, our diamond wedding in May, and a GE that sees the conservatives sent into opposition and the election of Starmer and Labour

I would say I have no great expectations that Starmer will resolve any of the complex issues we face today and even his most dedicated supporters must accept he is far from being a Blair for whom I voted twice

Mr Big_G sir - an improvement in both of your health issues would be a Christmas gift. For all that we enjoy the cut and thrust of politics, it is a distraction from our immediate and basic needs - health being the big one.

As for your entirely valid observations about Labour & Starmer - does it matter that there is no easy fix to the mess the country is in and that the Labour team aren't that dynamic?

If a 2023 version of Blair and his team from 1997 were the opposition then things clearly would get better in May. As it is, basic human decency would be served by removing this government. If the only substantive change is that we then get a government which isn't corrupt and immoral and sneeringly disgusted by the people of this country, isn't that worth it?

A Home Secretary who doesn't brand the town with the lowest life expectancy for women a "shithole" and instead does something to make those women live longer. A Home Secretary who doesn't find rape and marital coercion funny. That would be a positive step.

Good morning @RochdalePioneers

Thank you for your kind words and my present health issues do tend to override my bandwidth for political discourse

This government is tired and out of time and Starmer will be the next PM

Starmer will not have any effect on me personally and he will have a honeymoon, but I expect in due course his ministers and mps will do and say stupid things because in the end they are all politicians and it have been ever thus

This “they are all the same” meme is a small, seems to be a common thread from PB Tories. I guess it’s a way of dealing with the unprecedented disgrace of the past five years.

The truth is that politicians are not all like Truss, Boris and Sunak. Some are pretty effective and/or dedicated to service rather than their personal glory or some massive ego trip.

We can do better than this government.

As I said earlier, there seems to be no gutter too filthy for the remaining Tories (and Big_G is not one) to crawl in to justify why their party should carry on.

We either rescue our politics or we defile the whole country. Some things are basics of morality, of right and wrong. Can anyone honestly claim that making jokes about rape and spousal battery aren't that bad? From the *Home Secretary*?

He HAS to go. And you know it. Supposedly moral Tories need to grow a spine and call it out.

RochdalePioneers said:

Jonathan said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I want to wish everyone a very happy and enjoyable Christmas

I find politics hugely depressing at present and Cleverly's comments unacceptable even in jest

My hopes for 2024 is an improvement in my present health issues as the three consultants I am under come up with a treatment plan, look forward to my 80th on the 29th February having only had 20 actual birthday, our diamond wedding in May, and a GE that sees the conservatives sent into opposition and the election of Starmer and Labour

I would say I have no great expectations that Starmer will resolve any of the complex issues we face today and even his most dedicated supporters must accept he is far from being a Blair for whom I voted twice

Mr Big_G sir - an improvement in both of your health issues would be a Christmas gift. For all that we enjoy the cut and thrust of politics, it is a distraction from our immediate and basic needs - health being the big one.

As for your entirely valid observations about Labour & Starmer - does it matter that there is no easy fix to the mess the country is in and that the Labour team aren't that dynamic?

If a 2023 version of Blair and his team from 1997 were the opposition then things clearly would get better in May. As it is, basic human decency would be served by removing this government. If the only substantive change is that we then get a government which isn't corrupt and immoral and sneeringly disgusted by the people of this country, isn't that worth it?

A Home Secretary who doesn't brand the town with the lowest life expectancy for women a "shithole" and instead does something to make those women live longer. A Home Secretary who doesn't find rape and marital coercion funny. That would be a positive step.

Good morning @RochdalePioneers

Thank you for your kind words and my present health issues do tend to override my bandwidth for political discourse

This government is tired and out of time and Starmer will be the next PM

Starmer will not have any effect on me personally and he will have a honeymoon, but I expect in due course his ministers and mps will do and say stupid things because in the end they are all politicians and it have been ever thus

This “they are all the same” meme is a small, seems to be a common thread from PB Tories. I guess it’s a way of dealing with the unprecedented disgrace of the past five years.

The truth is that politicians are not all like Truss, Boris and Sunak. Some are pretty effective and/or dedicated to service rather than their personal glory or some massive ego trip.

We can do better than this government.

As I said earlier, there seems to be no gutter too filthy for the remaining Tories (and Big_G is not one) to crawl in to justify why their party should carry on.

We either rescue our politics or we defile the whole country. Some things are basics of morality, of right and wrong. Can anyone honestly claim that making jokes about rape and spousal battery aren't that bad? From the *Home Secretary*?

He HAS to go. And you know it. Supposedly moral Tories need to grow a spine and call it out.

AverageNinja said:

BlancheLivermore said:

How many of the Free Palestine protestor mob are complete and utter morons?

Some of them are targeting and trying to shut down Zara stores. They celebrated getting a London shop to temporarily close yesterday after they righteously raided it

Zara's crime? They support genocide. The evidence? They released an ad campaign clearly mocking the unfolding tragedy in Gaza

The ad was made in September

Mostly all of them

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Off-topic, but this is one of the better football articles I have read in a Long Time https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2023/dec/23/dull-manchester-united-plumb-new-depths-in-defeat-to-west-ham

As Gary Neville has been pointing out for ages, the blame isn't with the manager or players - it is with the club. We know Cafe Haag is a good manager, we know the players are good players. So what happens to make them - and a succession of predecessors - so terrible when they arrive at Old Trafford?

The club. A crumbling edifice, rotten from the top down with a stadium so knackered and a management so inept that they can't even keep the kitchens clean. The stench of decay is everywhere, and until the Glazers are finally prized from the board room it will not get better.

Absolutely spot on

Richard_Tyndall said:

AverageNinja said:

Is Cleverly being cancelled?

No.

Context and personal position matter.

Were he a comedian on stage making the same joke we would consider it risque and there would be a few moans and groans and drawn breath. Most of us would not find it funny. But comedians are supposed to push the limits and offend in what they say. We might think the joke out of order but sacking someone for it would be OTT and would be cancelling.

The Home Secretary, the man in charge of devising and overseeing rules to protect all sections of society, making such a joke at a Government function, is clearly so far outside acceptable that he should go. This is not cancellation. It is someone showing they simply don't understand or appreciate the harm done by a senior minister making jokes about situations that put the lives and well being of women at risk.

isam said:

Good article by Dan Hodges on the crazy way Sunak has played the hand he was dealt

“ Somehow the Government has allowed itself to become caricatured as a group of extremist Neanderthals, who are intent on destroying Britain's economy and social fabric with a series of brutal and callous spending cuts in pursuit of their fanatical neo-conservative agenda.

A few months ago Sunak was even described by The Economist as 'the most Right-wing Conservative leader of his generation'.

It's a fantasy. Since Rishi Sunak became Chancellor, and then Prime Minister, no peacetime British government has borrowed more. No government in British history has spent more on the NHS and other public services. No government has taxed the British people more to fund its vast expenditure.

But for some bizarre reason Sunak and his aides have manifestly failed to contextualise this reality. Or even attempt to frame it to their advantage.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12897657/DAN-HODGES-Rishi-started-2023-vowing-bring-hope-ends-year-brink-calamitous-defeat.html

Stocky said:

Monksfield said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stuartinromford said:

Nigelb said:

.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority.
The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers.
And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.

Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).

For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.

And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?

As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?

I think one of the most urgent issues facing a new Labour government is the triple lock and affordability of pensions

It is almost certain the pension age will have to rise, even to 75 as some economist say, and that will be hugely unpopular

75! You might as well have no pension at all. Good luck selling that.

We need better private pensions. But the truth of the matter is that too many fund managers are taking out too much. The investor is last in the queue.

That's why you don't use fund managers.

Online stockbroker, then choose ETFs/indiv shares which are dirt cheap. Cuts out the fund manager and the salesmen (aka financial adviser).

BlancheLivermore said:

How many of the Free Palestine protestor mob are complete and utter morons?

Some of them are targeting and trying to shut down Zara stores. They celebrated getting a London shop to temporarily close yesterday after they righteously raided it

Zara's crime? They support genocide. The evidence? They released an ad campaign clearly mocking the unfolding tragedy in Gaza

The ad was made in September

Northern_Al said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AverageNinja said:

Is Cleverly being cancelled?

No.

Context and personal position matter.

Were he a comedian on stage making the same joke we would consider it risque and there would be a few moans and groans and drawn breath. Most of us would not find it funny. But comedians are supposed to push the limits and offend in what they say. We might think the joke out of order but sacking someone for it would be OTT and would be cancelling.

The Home Secretary, the man in charge of devising and overseeing rules to protect all sections of society, making such a joke at a Government function, is clearly so far outside acceptable that he should go. This is not cancellation. It is someone showing they simply don't understand or appreciate the harm done by a senior minister making jokes about situations that put the lives and well being of women at risk.

Yes. What I find weird about Cleverly's "joke" is that he went ahead and made it anyway. Most of us pause before making inappropriate comments and think 'better not say that'. But not Cleverly. Which suggests he doesn't even have the self-awareness to appreciate that it wasn't funny or appropriate. The fact that it was in a 'private' forum is neither here nor there.

AverageNinja said:

"All politicians are the same".

Keir Starmer is every way a more decent person than Boris Johnson. To say otherwise is just bizarre.

Northern_Al said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

AverageNinja said:

Is Cleverly being cancelled?

No.

Context and personal position matter.

Were he a comedian on stage making the same joke we would consider it risque and there would be a few moans and groans and drawn breath. Most of us would not find it funny. But comedians are supposed to push the limits and offend in what they say. We might think the joke out of order but sacking someone for it would be OTT and would be cancelling.

The Home Secretary, the man in charge of devising and overseeing rules to protect all sections of society, making such a joke at a Government function, is clearly so far outside acceptable that he should go. This is not cancellation. It is someone showing they simply don't understand or appreciate the harm done by a senior minister making jokes about situations that put the lives and well being of women at risk.

Yes. What I find weird about Cleverly's "joke" is that he went ahead and made it anyway. Most of us pause before making inappropriate comments and think 'better not say that'. But not Cleverly. Which suggests he doesn't even have the self-awareness to appreciate that it wasn't funny or appropriate. The fact that it was in a 'private' forum is neither here nor there.

IanB2 said:

...Their aim is to see if they can re-enact the stunts without dying...

Monksfield said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stuartinromford said:

Nigelb said:

.

DavidL said:

Stuartinromford said:

DavidL said:

Sandpit said:

Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.

May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!

I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.

And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:

Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.

Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?

Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.

I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.

Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.

The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority.
The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers.
And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.

Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).

For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.

And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?

As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?

I think one of the most urgent issues facing a new Labour government is the triple lock and affordability of pensions

It is almost certain the pension age will have to rise, even to 75 as some economist say, and that will be hugely unpopular

75! You might as well have no pension at all. Good luck selling that.

We need better private pensions. But the truth of the matter is that too many fund managers are taking out too much. The investor is last in the queue.

NickPalmer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Good morning

I want to wish everyone a very happy and enjoyable Christmas

I find politics hugely depressing at present and Cleverly's comments unacceptable even in jest

My hopes for 2024 is an improvement in my present health issues as the three consultants I am under come up with a treatment plan, look forward to my 80th on the 29th February having only had 20 actual birthday, our diamond wedding in May, and a GE that sees the conservatives sent into opposition and the election of Starmer and Labour

I would say I have no great expectations that Starmer will resolve any of the complex issues we face today and even his most dedicated supporters must accept he is far from being a Blair for whom I voted twice

Happy Christmad too, Big_G - that all sounds rather promising!