As Gary Neville has been pointing out for ages, the blame isn't with the manager or players - it is with the club. We know Cafe Haag is a good manager, we know the players are good players. So what happens to make them - and a succession of predecessors - so terrible when they arrive at Old Trafford?
The club. A crumbling edifice, rotten from the top down with a stadium so knackered and a management so inept that they can't even keep the kitchens clean. The stench of decay is everywhere, and until the Glazers are finally prized from the board room it will not get better.
Absolutely spot on
We have two choices when faced with adversity - laugh or cry. I try to laugh, and there is so much to laugh about with the mess that United are in. I have to assume that Hag will get the sack soon, with a quick fire sale of supposedly marquee players and the hasty purchase of others.
Won't help. Anthony. Casemiro. Varane. These are great players ruined by United. Sell them and they will go back to being great.
Anthony great? Has he consistently delivered on a stage as tough as the premier league. Anthony hasn’t the mental game, can’t see the play in his head or think quick enough to do the right thing. Sancho “space finding” skill set is far better than Anthony’s.
A corpse rotting from the top is true. But that manager is still a jumped up dip stick out of his comfort zone. Last season was based on Rashfords and Casemiro form not the manager.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
I think one of the most urgent issues facing a new Labour government is the triple lock and affordability of pensions
It is almost certain the pension age will have to rise, even to 75 as some economist say, and that will be hugely unpopular
75! You might as well have no pension at all. Good luck selling that.
We need better private pensions. But the truth of the matter is that too many fund managers are taking out too much. The investor is last in the queue.
That's why you don't use fund managers.
Online stockbroker, then choose ETFs/indiv shares which are dirt cheap. Cuts out the fund manager and the salesmen (aka financial adviser).
Agreed, if you have a significant amount to invest. If you are starting out and only have enough to afford a handful of individual shares, the risk of doing so for something as important as a pension is too great. Although you're right that a well chosen ETF can do the job, or buy shares in an IT where the effect of admin costs/charges is commonly less than for funds
If I could wave a magic wand I'd reduce the auto enrolment charges cap significantly from the current 0.75% pa.
I'd also reduce DB scheme benefits (or tax them higher) and use the money saved to increase tax relief on DC schemes but ONLY on non-advised plans (SIPPS) or on advised plans where the charges are no higher than the revised auto enrolment charge cap.
Anyway let's shrug off the cloud of Cleverly and wish all PBers a really 🙂 one. I am about to load up and hit the road. I'm driving home for Christmas.
I've just done my Christmas Eve todo list, and it's about 3 days activity .
Meanwhile, my sister has been taken into hospital a couple of days ago for a debilitating but not serious condition (I think), and I expect in hospital style they will keep her in for a week or so to make sure that when she goes out again there is no risk of her coming back. So my BiL is going to be run off his feet, and I need to find a Thinking of You card.
On topic, I wonder if this Cleverly emerging-misogyny cum size-11-boot-down-his-own-throat will be a bit of a slow-burner? I'd say in 2023 that this is a political hole beneath the waterline.
I would draw a parallel with Boris and the Chris Pincher affair, however that one only took about a week - but Bojo knew about Chris Pincher's reputation years before aiui.
WHSmith do notecards, which allow you to write your own message and are multipurpose. Buy in bulk at the beginning of the year. Saves shopping
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
I think one of the most urgent issues facing a new Labour government is the triple lock and affordability of pensions
It is almost certain the pension age will have to rise, even to 75 as some economist say, and that will be hugely unpopular
75! You might as well have no pension at all. Good luck selling that.
We need better private pensions. But the truth of the matter is that too many fund managers are taking out too much. The investor is last in the queue.
Until people are actively encouraged to invest in the long term, instead of spending their money on instant gratification, not enough will be invested in pensions. Until investment in the markets is understood to be a good thing, and until the attitude that property is a guaranteed win, hopefully via a price crash that makes owning your own home as a place to live, not just something to pass onto your children, then people will continue to not invest enough in their pensions.
My private pension lost 25 per cent of its value. Similar stories have been in the press. Overpaid, incompetent, rent-seeking fund managers abound.
As for state pensions, they are a pittance and for all that the triple lock might make them unaffordable eventually, that will not happen for the foreseeable future.
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
An excellent point about Michael Howard. It is possibly a good indicator of how far public discourse and confidence in politicians has fallen in the last two decades that the general feeling is that Cleverly should NOT be sacked.
By any meaningful measure, any politician who thinks giving women a date rape drug is a topic of amusement should be shown the door pronto.
Not sure that that is, however, a correct description of the general opinion (i.e. the feeling that Mr Cleverly shoulkd be sacked). The DM weebsite comments are not all supportive of Mr Cleverly. Rather, the reverse.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
As a collection of charts, it suffers from inconsistent colouring. From Labour's point of view, you need to decide whether blue and red are party colours or represent growth and decline.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
As a collection of charts, it suffers from inconsistent colouring. From Labour's point of view, you need to decide whether blue and red are party colours or represent growth and decline.
I’m sure there’s a LibDem somewhere who could advise!
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
I've just done my Christmas Eve todo list, and it's about 3 days activity .
Meanwhile, my sister has been taken into hospital a couple of days ago for a debilitating but not serious condition (I think), and I expect in hospital style they will keep her in for a week or so to make sure that when she goes out again there is no risk of her coming back. So my BiL is going to be run off his feet, and I need to find a Thinking of You card.
On topic, I wonder if this Cleverly emerging-misogyny cum size-11-boot-down-his-own-throat will be a bit of a slow-burner? I'd say in 2023 that this is a political hole beneath the waterline.
I would draw a parallel with Boris and the Chris Pincher affair, however that one only took about a week - but Bojo knew about Chris Pincher's reputation years before aiui.
WHSmith do notecards, which allow you to write your own message and are multipurpose. Buy in bulk at the beginning of the year. Saves shopping
Or tsry the local museum/art gallery/community art centre for nice local artist- or photographer-made cards which are blank inside. I buy s selection in bulk from my local art centre once a year or so to have a fair selection and make sure the subject is appropriate (having once sent a Rare Breeds Trust card of Gloucester Old Spot with her litter of piglets to a colleague who had just given birth - very fortunately she loved the pigs).
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
An excellent point about Michael Howard. It is possibly a good indicator of how far public discourse and confidence in politicians has fallen in the last two decades that the general feeling is that Cleverly should NOT be sacked.
By any meaningful measure, any politician who thinks giving women a date rape drug is a topic of amusement should be shown the door pronto.
Everything in life has been dumbed down, things that are out of politicians control. Look at quiz shows nowadays compared with the 80s - A Question of Sport went from David Coleman to Paddy McGuiness.
Can you imagine Jan Leeming doing a countdown ending with the middle finger for BBC News?
Reality tv & Social media have a lot to answer for; people feel the need, and are encouraged, to share everything they’re thinking, all of the time
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble. I don’t really care about the so called parties; if they’d been attending funerals or visiting ill relatives while we weren’t allowed, that would be a different matter
But the worst doublethink for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
Wishing you all a very Merry one. And a happy and prosperous New Year! Am in Germany. Everything shut yesterday. A pleasing lack of garish home decorations.
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
An excellent point about Michael Howard. It is possibly a good indicator of how far public discourse and confidence in politicians has fallen in the last two decades that the general feeling is that Cleverly should NOT be sacked.
By any meaningful measure, any politician who thinks giving women a date rape drug is a topic of amusement should be shown the door pronto.
And yet the same PB Tories / fellow travellers who get tumescent about curries and donkey sanctuaries and other nonsense say practically nothing about the Home Secretary in number 10 making jokes about rape and battery.
Its not even a skewed moral compass. Its just plain wrong.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
An excellent point about Michael Howard. It is possibly a good indicator of how far public discourse and confidence in politicians has fallen in the last two decades that the general feeling is that Cleverly should NOT be sacked.
By any meaningful measure, any politician who thinks giving women a date rape drug is a topic of amusement should be shown the door pronto.
And yet the same PB Tories / fellow travellers who get tumescent about curries and donkey sanctuaries and other nonsense say practically nothing about the Home Secretary in number 10 making jokes about rape and battery.
Its not even a skewed moral compass. Its just plain wrong.
I'm surprised they're not more exercised about donkey sanctuaries given how many of their MPs should be in one.
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
Worse for whom? If the government I would say its pretty even. The Major government never recovered from Black Wednesday which destroyed irredeemably their reputation for economic competence, which, arguably, had given them a surprise win earlier the same year. The Truss episode caused the Tories significant damage but the changes in personnel gives them some relief from that. Otherwise, we don't really have the equivalent of the cash for questions scandal although some would point to Baroness Mone and the PPE contracts.
I don't think Labour are in anything like as strong a position. Blair, for all his many faults, was a brilliant politician and early Brown had a great deal more credibility than Reeves has generated to date. His prawn sandwich offensive in the City made it clear that Labour could be trusted with the economy and generated a lot of favourable press.
Both governments had a sense of decay and a lack of purpose about them, I don't think that there is a lot to choose between them, but the Opposition is not as strong.
The Major government was nowhere near as weak, despite its non existent majority. The party was exhausted and bereft of ideas after so long in government, but they still had a numbed of fairly strong and competent ministers. And a much smaller percentage of the party had been driven mad by Europe.
Blair was a brilliant politician - but neither he nor Brown really understood what was needed to move on from Thatcherism, as opposed to just spending much more money (necessary, but not sufficient).
For all the pratfalls, all the humiliation, all the sleaze, Major's government did leave a pretty decent legacy in some ways.
And the sleaze was mostly fairly small fry- junior ministers and backbenchers. For example, can you imagine Michael Howard joking about rohypnol?
As for the future- it's hard to imagine any politician being able to actively sell a "we're poorer than we all thought, get used to it" message to the public. Blair didn't even try. Question is, is the UK prepared to internalise that message, accept that it's not going to be fun for anyone and worse than that for most, and trust the government to apportion the pain as well as can be done?
An excellent point about Michael Howard. It is possibly a good indicator of how far public discourse and confidence in politicians has fallen in the last two decades that the general feeling is that Cleverly should NOT be sacked.
By any meaningful measure, any politician who thinks giving women a date rape drug is a topic of amusement should be shown the door pronto.
Not sure that that is, however, a correct description of the general opinion (i.e. the feeling that Mr Cleverly shoulkd be sacked). The DM weebsite comments are not all supportive of Mr Cleverly. Rather, the reverse.
It's the bizarre apology culture we live in. There should rarely be a good reason to apologise.
If you did something deliberately, then you made a rational decision to do it, and did it. Any apology is therefore a lie.
If something was pure accident, there's no real reason to apologise.
The only time you should apologise is if something genuinely has unforeseeable and unintended consequences.
This falls into the first category and Cleverly is therefore lying. What he should have said was, yes I sometimes tell bad taste jokes, so do many of you, for the absence of doubt I take date rape extremely seriously.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
Were he a comedian on stage making the same joke we would consider it risque and there would be a few moans and groans and drawn breath. Most of us would not find it funny. But comedians are supposed to push the limits and offend in what they say. We might think the joke out of order but sacking someone for it would be OTT and would be cancelling.
The Home Secretary, the man in charge of devising and overseeing rules to protect all sections of society, making such a joke at a Government function, is clearly so far outside acceptable that he should go. This is not cancellation. It is someone showing they simply don't understand or appreciate the harm done by a senior minister making jokes about situations that put the lives and well being of women at risk.
Yes. What I find weird about Cleverly's "joke" is that he went ahead and made it anyway. Most of us pause before making inappropriate comments and think 'better not say that'. But not Cleverly. Which suggests he doesn't even have the self-awareness to appreciate that it wasn't funny or appropriate. The fact that it was in a 'private' forum is neither here nor there.
That it made the media so quickly also suggests that Cleverly has enemies and that the Tories are still all at each other's throats, blind to the electoral consequences
It was, according to the news this morning, a Mirror journalist who leaked it. Usually what is said at these press parties is kept private but the journalist decided to run with it due to Cleverly’s job etc.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
Were he a comedian on stage making the same joke we would consider it risque and there would be a few moans and groans and drawn breath. Most of us would not find it funny. But comedians are supposed to push the limits and offend in what they say. We might think the joke out of order but sacking someone for it would be OTT and would be cancelling.
The Home Secretary, the man in charge of devising and overseeing rules to protect all sections of society, making such a joke at a Government function, is clearly so far outside acceptable that he should go. This is not cancellation. It is someone showing they simply don't understand or appreciate the harm done by a senior minister making jokes about situations that put the lives and well being of women at risk.
Yes. What I find weird about Cleverly's "joke" is that he went ahead and made it anyway. Most of us pause before making inappropriate comments and think 'better not say that'. But not Cleverly. Which suggests he doesn't even have the self-awareness to appreciate that it wasn't funny or appropriate. The fact that it was in a 'private' forum is neither here nor there.
That it made the media so quickly also suggests that Cleverly has enemies and that the Tories are still all at each other's throats, blind to the electoral consequences
It was, according to the news this morning, a Mirror journalist who leaked it. Usually what is said at these press parties is kept private but the journalist decided to run with it due to Cleverly’s job etc.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Probably not, but The Mail / The Sun / Guido probably would.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
They're burning the forest down. Their actions are so blatant.
Good morning all, and happy Christmas Eve to PBers everywhere. Hope you are all with your loved ones, and looking forward to eating and drinking too much in the next few days.
May God be with you all, and may Santa bring many presents!
I've woken for what looks like an extremely busy day and Cleverly still isn't. Another terminally wounded zombie of a Minister who cannot be taken seriously by anyone, not even his wife.
And Cleverly was basically meant to be the grownup. From which I've got two questions:
Have any of the 2019 generation of Conservatives enhanced their reputations by being in government, even in a "decent but doomed" way? There must be someone.
Have we reached the point where things are unambiguously worse than they were in 1996/7?
I’ve been watching politics, and sometimes been involved at a fairly low level, for over 60 years. And the answer is yes, things are worse than they were in 1996/7 and indeed worse than they have been at any time in my recollection. Even the last years of the Brown administration.
Worse than December 1973?
I remember December 1973. I had three small children. I think the three day week actually started in January 1974. The lights would go off for hours at a time - not just in the houses but street lights and traffic lights too. Total blackout. It was a grim dark January.
But the mood was different. Some supported the Heath government and some supported the miners. There was a sense of purpose and fight, not of hopeless decay and sleaze. When Heath called the snap election in February 1974 with the slogan "Who Governs Britain" the answer came back "Not You Mate".
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
So where is the money going?
The last ten years or so whenever anyone has raised a question of whether money is being spent effectively the response has been “what would you cut? How many people will die? Won’t you think of the children?”
Money is being wasted on an industrial scale. This is not a party political point: our government is world beating at it.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
It is an incredible skill to cut basic services so much that they can't function and still manage to achieve 0 growth and have a massively higher national debt and deficit than when you arrived.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Probably not.
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Probably not.
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
Anyway let's shrug off the cloud of Cleverly and wish all PBers a really 🙂 one. I am about to load up and hit the road. I'm driving home for Christmas.
Hope you have a Chris Really good journey home, and aren’t top to toe in tailbacks.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Probably not.
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Probably not.
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
ROFL, you absolutely would.
Believe whatever makes you happy
I distinctly remember discussing with you about Labour MPs and why they should resign.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
They shouldn’t have voted until the deal was concluded. Arguable of course that it never has been, but that’s not the point! Norway or something close would have satisfied many, although, of course not the ERG.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
Our trains are an absolute joke. I am not sure what the solution is but right now the system isn't working for anyone.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Remember the strident demands that Diane Abbott resign as Shadow Home Secretary because she drank a premix can on the tube?
Abbott drinks a Mojito on the overground: A Scandal. Proof Labour Cannot Be Trusted. She Must Resign.
Cleverly jokes about rape drugs and spousal battery and there's literally nothing to see here move along.
Never mind the mental gymnastics to get into such a position, do the posters not get the screaming hypocrisy of their position?
People still supporting the Tories now are probably beyond help.
(Snip)
I agree. However, I'd say the same: labour people who stuck with Labour even when they had an anti-Semitic leader are also probably beyond help.
Sadly, that includes the LOTO...
But not a fair few decent Labour (and ex-Labour) people on here who did the decent thing.
At least as a senior Labour politician Starmer had the option of sticking it out and then working to erase the anti-semitism. Any split might have failed and then you would still have the unedifying spectacle of an anti-semitic main opposition party. As a voter it's easier, your vote is transient, you just change it with the option of changing back later.
As a Tory voter (in national elections at least) I long since made the decision to vote for someone else next time.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
So where is the money going?
The last ten years or so whenever anyone has raised a question of whether money is being spent effectively the response has been “what would you cut? How many people will die? Won’t you think of the children?”
Money is being wasted on an industrial scale. This is not a party political point: our government is world beating at it.
Exactly. We know that layer after layer after layer of marketised competitive management is in things like the NHS. Contracts piled on contracts. Of full time staff not available because why invest in that when you pay agency staff a huge amount more with the management spivs coining it for every agency hour worked.
A fortune being sucked out of the front line by a spivocracy which has the Tories wrapped around their little fingers. So we spend record amounts on the NHS as the front line service provision is dangerously short of cash and staff and resource.
But remember folks - if you vote Labour they might tax and spend and waste your money. So you have to vote for the Tories to avoid that happening.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
This is where I tend to go to. Can somebody explain the current arrangement with these private companies owning and leasing the trains? Why can't the operator do that.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Remember the strident demands that Diane Abbott resign as Shadow Home Secretary because she drank a premix can on the tube?
Abbott drinks a Mojito on the overground: A Scandal. Proof Labour Cannot Be Trusted. She Must Resign.
Cleverly jokes about rape drugs and spousal battery and there's literally nothing to see here move along.
Never mind the mental gymnastics to get into such a position, do the posters not get the screaming hypocrisy of their position?
People still supporting the Tories now are probably beyond help.
(Snip)
I agree. However, I'd say the same: labour people who stuck with Labour even when they had an anti-Semitic leader are also probably beyond help.
Sadly, that includes the LOTO...
But not a fair few decent Labour (and ex-Labour) people on here who did the decent thing.
At least as a senior Labour politician Starmer had the option of sticking it out and then working to erase the anti-semitism. Any split might have failed and then you would still have the unedifying spectacle of an anti-semitic main opposition party. As a voter it's easier, your vote is transient, you just change it with the option of changing back later.
As a Tory voter (in national elections at least) I long since made the decision to vote for someone else next time.
As I have said many times, if Keir had not stayed in post he would never have won. He would never have been able to kick Corbyn out.
I passionately believe in this case he has proved his worth on anti-Semitism. And it's not me saying that, it is the JLM and BoD.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Remember the strident demands that Diane Abbott resign as Shadow Home Secretary because she drank a premix can on the tube?
Abbott drinks a Mojito on the overground: A Scandal. Proof Labour Cannot Be Trusted. She Must Resign.
Cleverly jokes about rape drugs and spousal battery and there's literally nothing to see here move along.
Never mind the mental gymnastics to get into such a position, do the posters not get the screaming hypocrisy of their position?
People still supporting the Tories now are probably beyond help.
(Snip)
I agree. However, I'd say the same: labour people who stuck with Labour even when they had an anti-Semitic leader are also probably beyond help.
Sadly, that includes the LOTO...
But not a fair few decent Labour (and ex-Labour) people on here who did the decent thing.
At least as a senior Labour politician Starmer had the option of sticking it out and then working to erase the anti-semitism. Any split might have failed and then you would still have the unedifying spectacle of an anti-semitic main opposition party. As a voter it's easier, your vote is transient, you just change it with the option of changing back later.
As a Tory voter (in national elections at least) I long since made the decision to vote for someone else next time.
What would he have done had Labour won and Corbyn become PM? It’s all very well in hindsight painting Sir Keir as some kind of fifth columnist in the party who was secretly hoping to flush out all the nasty types once leader, but that wouldn’t have happened if the thing he was campaigning for had won
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
As you know I am a big fan of StateCo setups. A company owned by the government but run commercially. What you suggest is a StateCo.
For the trot loons such a thing is heresy. They decry the service being provided by the Department for Transport and demand that it be nationalised so that the service instead can be run by the Department for Transport.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
This is where I tend to go to. Can somebody explain the current arrangement with these private companies owning and leasing the trains? Why can't the operator do that.
In some cases that already happens. But regardless of who owns the rolling stock, what type is used and of what length is decided by the Department for Transport.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Remember the strident demands that Diane Abbott resign as Shadow Home Secretary because she drank a premix can on the tube?
Abbott drinks a Mojito on the overground: A Scandal. Proof Labour Cannot Be Trusted. She Must Resign.
Cleverly jokes about rape drugs and spousal battery and there's literally nothing to see here move along.
Never mind the mental gymnastics to get into such a position, do the posters not get the screaming hypocrisy of their position?
People still supporting the Tories now are probably beyond help.
(Snip)
I agree. However, I'd say the same: labour people who stuck with Labour even when they had an anti-Semitic leader are also probably beyond help.
Sadly, that includes the LOTO...
But not a fair few decent Labour (and ex-Labour) people on here who did the decent thing.
At least as a senior Labour politician Starmer had the option of sticking it out and then working to erase the anti-semitism. Any split might have failed and then you would still have the unedifying spectacle of an anti-semitic main opposition party. As a voter it's easier, your vote is transient, you just change it with the option of changing back later.
As a Tory voter (in national elections at least) I long since made the decision to vote for someone else next time.
What would he have done had Labour won and Corbyn become PM? It’s all very well in hindsight painting Sir Keir as some kind of fifth columnist in the party who was secretly hoping to flush out all the nasty types once leader, but that wouldn’t have happened if the thing he was campaigning for had won
You don't get much choice in politics in the UK. Political parties are broad churches, you work within them or not at all.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
Our PM agreeing a deal with a foreign trade partner is enough for me.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
Do you think they would have run it if it had been a Labour Home Secretary?
Some paper would - and you'd be telling us why the Labour MP must resign.
Probably not.
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
ROFL, you absolutely would.
Believe whatever makes you happy
I distinctly remember discussing with you about Labour MPs and why they should resign.
I’m sure we have. And there are certainly some ministers who have and should have resigned too. I’m not a party hack.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
The sovereignty of "the King in Parliament" is purely an internal constitutional thing. It simply means that the High Court of the King in Parliament is constitutionally the top body that can't be overridden.
You say "MPs", constitutionally (and legally) a resolution of the House of Commons means nothing.
In an international context, "sovereignty" just means the UK can make its own decisions. The internal decision-making process is irrelevant (and is up to us to determine)
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
So where is the money going?
The last ten years or so whenever anyone has raised a question of whether money is being spent effectively the response has been “what would you cut? How many people will die? Won’t you think of the children?”
Money is being wasted on an industrial scale. This is not a party political point: our government is world beating at it.
Exactly. We know that layer after layer after layer of marketised competitive management is in things like the NHS. Contracts piled on contracts. Of full time staff not available because why invest in that when you pay agency staff a huge amount more with the management spivs coining it for every agency hour worked.
A fortune being sucked out of the front line by a spivocracy which has the Tories wrapped around their little fingers. So we spend record amounts on the NHS as the front line service provision is dangerously short of cash and staff and resource.
But remember folks - if you vote Labour they might tax and spend and waste your money. So you have to vote for the Tories to avoid that happening.
And you completely miss the point.
Management contracts, overhead and waste I am sure is part of it. But a fraction of the total spending and certainly doesn’t explain the issue.
And you choose to make it a partisan attack rather than to have a discussion on what we can do better.
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
As you know I am a big fan of StateCo setups. A company owned by the government but run commercially. What you suggest is a StateCo.
For the trot loons such a thing is heresy. They decry the service being provided by the Department for Transport and demand that it be nationalised so that the service instead can be run by the Department for Transport.
How do you stop politicians and civil servants interfering?
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
Our PM agreeing a deal with a foreign trade partner is enough for me.
Gotcha. So you decry betrayal of the 17.4m people who voted for Brexit, whilst advocating a position which betrays the 17.4m people who voted for Brexit.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
So where is the money going?
The last ten years or so whenever anyone has raised a question of whether money is being spent effectively the response has been “what would you cut? How many people will die? Won’t you think of the children?”
Money is being wasted on an industrial scale. This is not a party political point: our government is world beating at it.
Exactly. We know that layer after layer after layer of marketised competitive management is in things like the NHS. Contracts piled on contracts. Of full time staff not available because why invest in that when you pay agency staff a huge amount more with the management spivs coining it for every agency hour worked.
A fortune being sucked out of the front line by a spivocracy which has the Tories wrapped around their little fingers. So we spend record amounts on the NHS as the front line service provision is dangerously short of cash and staff and resource.
But remember folks - if you vote Labour they might tax and spend and waste your money. So you have to vote for the Tories to avoid that happening.
And you completely miss the point.
Management contract and salary Vergeer I am sure is part of it. But a fraction of the total spending and certainly doesn’t explain the issue.
And you choose to make it a partisan attack rather than to have a discussion on what we can do better.
The big issue for the NHS is that thanks to expensive drugs and treatments people can live longer.
But we should also look at all of the preventative things which stopped people getting ill - things cut by this government. You said I made it a partisan attack - I did. Because the problem is partisan. Compare and contrast the NHS pre 97 and post 97, pre 10 and post 10.
What we can do better is kick the Tories out. You might not like that, but that's the reality of it.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
That’s rewriting history. There was a specific vote when they could have got May’s plan passed but both the nutty right and the Labour Party/remainers chose to oppose it because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
It’s a point of view.
Alternative point of view, don’t do yes no in out referendum on things where the details are more complicated, and the nuance best delved into by democratic representatives. Many who believed in Brexit didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, the different types of brexits were not on the ballot paper in that type of referendum.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
Covid/Ukraine were, in fiscal terms, the equivalent of fighting a major war. The amounts that we borrowed have to be paid back. At a time when interest rates have risen. Labour may have spent the borrowed money better, they may have been less corrupt than the current lot, but neither Covid nor Ukraine, and the associated fiscal problems, and price rises, would have been avoided.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
That’s rewriting history. There was a specific vote when they could have got May’s plan passed but both the nutty right and the Labour Party/remainers chose to oppose it because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
And had there been any risk of that happening, May would have been VONCed by her party faster than you can say "Vassal state".
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
This is where I tend to go to. Can somebody explain the current arrangement with these private companies owning and leasing the trains? Why can't the operator do that.
In some cases that already happens. But regardless of who owns the rolling stock, what type is used and of what length is decided by the Department for Transport.
But why not in all cases? What purpose do these third party companies serve?
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
It’s a point of view.
Alternative point of view, don’t do yes no in out referendum on things where the details are more complicated, and the nuance best delved into by democratic representatives. Many who believed in Brexit didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, the different types of brexits were not on the ballot paper in that type of referendum.
Surely the issue was not “what type of Brexit” but the boiling frog scenario
The EU in 2016 was very different to the Common Market that the country joined. It was inevitably going to continue to evolve and likely integrate further.
The Brexit referendum was most likely going to be the only chance to vote on the topic for decades, if ever again.
So if you didn’t like the idea of gradual sublimation of the UK there was no alternative regardless of the form of Brexit
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
It’s a point of view.
Alternative point of view, don’t do yes no in out referendum on things where the details are more complicated, and the nuance best delved into by democratic representatives. Many who believed in Brexit didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, the different types of brexits were not on the ballot paper in that type of referendum.
It was the democratic representatives who (from all sides with the notable exception of the SNP) gave us the bloody referendum in the first place.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
That’s rewriting history. There was a specific vote when they could have got May’s plan passed but both the nutty right and the Labour Party/remainers chose to oppose it because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
And had there been any risk of that happening, May would have been VONCed by her party faster than you can say "Vassal state".
In the run up to the critical vote there was lots of debate about it.
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
That’s rewriting history. There was a specific vote when they could have got May’s plan passed but both the nutty right and the Labour Party/remainers chose to oppose it because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
And had there been any risk of that happening, May would have been VONCed by her party faster than you can say "Vassal state".
I'm still quite staggered at how badly the parliamentary remainers played Brexit. The absolute best they could have achieved was May's deal. Yet they fluffed it time and again.
I'm personally very relieved; I fear we'd still be semi-detached and the Brexit wars would still be raging.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
“without DfT interference.”
You were doing well up to there. The problems are -
1) that means spending billions in public money without political accountability. 2) it assumes the “professional” managers would be any different to the current management. In this country it is Neon Fascist Imperialism to have things run by actual domain experts. The trains would be run by other #NU10K.
In the US, NASA did fixed price bids for Commercial Cargo to the International Space Station. This worked, was notably cheap - so cheap in fact that there were multiple vendors. Senator Diane Feinstein complained that her staff weren’t getting enough paperwork on the program. AKA “I can’t micromanage this, therefore it is bad,”
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
Indeed.
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
I never voted for Brexit. I didn't fuck up anything, it is you that should own it.
You seem to have a strange obsession with me. I wasn’t talking about you - or me - or the voters at large.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
Indeed.
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Truss 2.0. Let’s not. It lasts about 40 days and a run on the pound.
I never voted for Brexit. I didn't fuck up anything, it is you that should own it.
You seem to have a strange obsession with me. I wasn’t talking about you - or me - or the voters at large.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
They gambled and lost.
They f**ked up. And people need to accept that.
No it's you that has an obsession with me, with your predictable attempts to "out" me.
As it happens, this is probably the first post I've ever agreed with you on.
Leave winning the referendum sparked a kind of war that is no different to historical battles - Boris as the figurehead of Leave, then as the PM that stopped a second referendum became the King that had to be taken down and everything he did is seen as malevolent. Sir Keir as the main refuser to accept the result is seen as the hero who can do no wrong by Remain voters.
Because most followers of politics like to maintain a sheen of academic rigour and need all their conclusions to be explainable as logical, they never admit this, but at its core it’s all just the ashes of the referendum
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
Indeed.
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Truss 2.0. Let’s not. It lasts about 40 days and a run on the pound.
LOL. The run on the pound is more likely to be triggered by your lads spending too much. It always happens. Every, single, time.....
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
Our PM agreeing a deal with a foreign trade partner is enough for me.
Gotcha. So you decry betrayal of the 17.4m people who voted for Brexit, whilst advocating a position which betrays the 17.4m people who voted for Brexit.
No, you haven’t got me at all. Before the referendum took place, I said I’d be happy for Cameron to agree a deal that was as close to Remaining as possible if Leave won.
The only betrayal of the Referendum vote were the attempts to ignore it between 2016-2019
Leave winning the referendum sparked a kind of war that is no different to historical battles - Boris as the figurehead of Leave, then as the PM that stopped a second referendum became the King that had to be taken down and everything he did is seen as malevolent. Sir Keir as the main refuser to accept the result is seen as the hero who can do no wrong by Remain voters.
Because most followers of politics like to maintain a sheen of academic rigour and need all their conclusions to be explainable as logical, they never admit this, but at its core it’s all just the ashes of the referendum
Leave winning the referendum sparked a clusterfuck because they had no idea what to do next. And we are all still living with the consequences.
I never voted for Brexit. I didn't fuck up anything, it is you that should own it.
You seem to have a strange obsession with me. I wasn’t talking about you - or me - or the voters at large.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
They gambled and lost.
They f**ked up. And people need to accept that.
No it's you that has an obsession with me, with your predictable attempts to "out" me.
As it happens, this is probably the first post I've ever agreed with you on.
I never voted for Brexit. I didn't fuck up anything, it is you that should own it.
You seem to have a strange obsession with me. I wasn’t talking about you - or me - or the voters at large.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
They gambled and lost.
They f**ked up. And people need to accept that.
Oh, lots of people made in utter Horlicks of politics post 2016.
The Civilised Leavers who planned to use the XL Bullies of Brexit (Cummings and Farage) to get Leave over the line, then dump them to get a feather soft Brexit in alliance with the Remainers. They really made a mess of things.
The Remainers, as you have said. And I'd add those who exaggerated the extreme potential downside, when the central case (a slow ongoing puncture) was bad enough.
The May government, who probably couldn't have reached out to the opposition, but didn't try.
Comrade Jez, who let his ego get in the way of a Government of Sane Brexit.
But most of all, those who campaigned for Brexit, then foisted an incredibly hard Brexit on the rest of us. Tactical geniuses, but strategically idiotic, because they largely denied the cost and inconvenience that would arise.
God bless us, one and all. Maybe change the second word to help.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
Indeed.
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Aren't you a life long Tory?
To coin an au courant phrase, your boys f**ked up. Own it.
Leave winning the referendum sparked a kind of war that is no different to historical battles - Boris as the figurehead of Leave, then as the PM that stopped a second referendum became the King that had to be taken down and everything he did is seen as malevolent. Sir Keir as the main refuser to accept the result is seen as the hero who can do no wrong by Remain voters.
Because most followers of politics like to maintain a sheen of academic rigour and need all their conclusions to be explainable as logical, they never admit this, but at its core it’s all just the ashes of the referendum
I think that framing Sir Keir as the main refuser to accept the result overstates his role. He opportunistically exploited it to win power within the Labour party but he wasn't a leading player overall.
Arguably the protagonists were all within the Conservative party and its offshoots.
We are seeing boiling frog syndrome in action. The government and the Tory party are morally reprehensible. Politically incompetent. But despite the evidence piling higher and the temperature in the water reaching the point where political death is imminent, still they shriek about the dangers of Labour who would stick you in water and turn the temperature up.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
All that money spent with nothing to show for it was necessary for lockdowns and Covid. It’s fair enough to dislike the government, but to ignore that when critiquing them is crazy
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Except that the "no money left" isn't about our savings, it's about the monthly income and expenditure.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
This is largely because the state is much too generous in what it provides. Despite collecting more in taxes than in living memory.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
... just in time for some socialist (of either party) to come in and find the "Third Way" and "share the proceeds of growth", i.e. get lazy and complacent again.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
Indeed.
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Aren't you a life long Tory?
To coin an au courant phrase, your boys f**ked up. Own it.
The current leaders of the Tory party are about as far from being Tory as possible, policy wise.
I'm only still in the party to ensure they are replaced by someone who actually wants to cut the state.
I never voted for Brexit. I didn't fuck up anything, it is you that should own it.
You seem to have a strange obsession with me. I wasn’t talking about you - or me - or the voters at large.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
They gambled and lost.
They f**ked up. And people need to accept that.
Oh, lots of people made in utter Horlicks of politics post 2016.
The Civilised Leavers who planned to use the XL Bullies of Brexit (Cummings and Farage) to get Leave over the line, then dump them to get a feather soft Brexit in alliance with the Remainers. They really made a mess of things.
The Remainers, as you have said. And I'd add those who exaggerated the extreme potential downside, when the central case (a slow ongoing puncture) was bad enough.
The May government, who probably couldn't have reached out to the opposition, but didn't try.
Comrade Jez, who let his ego get in the way of a Government of Sane Brexit.
But most of all, those who campaigned for Brexit, then foisted an incredibly hard Brexit on the rest of us. Tactical geniuses, but strategically idiotic, because they largely denied the cost and inconvenience that would arise.
God bless us, one and all. Maybe change the second word to help.
It will all figure itself out in the long run
In 25 years whether we are in our out of the EU will have made very little difference to the trajectory of the UK
(But yes, lots of people got things very wrong. May be it was unlucky.
At its core,I think there was deep discontent among the voters and Brexit happened to be the issue they latched onto to make their point. Possibly Farage sensed that - possibly he got lucky. The fundamental issue was - and remains - that the political class is not governing in the interests of individual citizens but are too focused on the macro statistics rather than looking at the lived experience)
On top of all the spending, borrowing and tax hikes, this govt has increased immigration to record levels. It is a left wingers dream, yet left wingers hate it, because they are obsessed with personality rather than policy - having their man in charge rather than a nasty Tory. Right wingers on here hate it too, because of the policies, yet Hodges is correct; a clever politician would be able to turn what’s happened into an advantage, yet Sunak has disappointed everyone
I think these charts, while obviously selected for political purposes, are pretty convincing:
This is not a left-winger's dream. It's simply bad government.
Every govt would have had to spend the money this one did during Covid, Labour wanted longer lockdowns so would have spent more, and the debt would have been bigger
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
It’s a fair point about Covid being an awful situation for any Government, but Johnson and his crew didn’t help themselves by the PPE scandals, which were suspected even as they were happening, and by their partying while the rest of us were locked down. Among other things. Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done. The PPE scandals seem pretty awful, my MP at the time, in Upminster, must be in trouble
But the worst double think for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
“The remainers were refusing to allow any Brexit deal to pass, something had to be done.”
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
MPs shouldn’t have been allowed a vote on it
Hang on. Very large numbers of people would say "sovereignty" was their number one driver for voting to leave the EU.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
And, even if you try to make something like that a decision for the PM and cabinet, they only serve at the pleasure of their party in the Commons. Had May (say) come back with something unacceptable to the Conservative Brexit Hardcore, they had the numbers to ditch her even sooner than they did.
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
That’s rewriting history. There was a specific vote when they could have got May’s plan passed but both the nutty right and the Labour Party/remainers chose to oppose it because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
And had there been any risk of that happening, May would have been VONCed by her party faster than you can say "Vassal state".
I'm still quite staggered at how badly the parliamentary remainers played Brexit. The absolute best they could have achieved was May's deal. Yet they fluffed it time and again.
I'm personally very relieved; I fear we'd still be semi-detached and the Brexit wars would still be raging.
Sir Keir argued against Brexit solutions that were his idea
“ Barwell goes on to describe a meeting with the Labour leadership held on May 6, where he claims that Starmer “objected to the language on customs” used in one of the bilateral documents. “I pointed out that we had lifted it from his letter of April 22 — he was objecting to his own policy,” Barwell writes.
Once the talks broke down, Barwell writes, “Labour didn’t have any confidence that whoever succeeded her would abide by any deal, and it was pretty clear Keir was not prepared to settle for anything that didn’t include a commitment to a confirmatory vote.
“I’m not sure whether the Shadow Cabinet realised at the time, but they had killed off the last chance for a compromise Brexit…”
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
What is needed is one comprehensive rail network, with both operations and infrastructure under a single management, and run by professionals, without DfT interference.
This is where I tend to go to. Can somebody explain the current arrangement with these private companies owning and leasing the trains? Why can't the operator do that.
In some cases that already happens. But regardless of who owns the rolling stock, what type is used and of what length is decided by the Department for Transport.
Rolling stock, like many other assets (think ferries, gas storage) has been cut to the bone. There are insufficient coaches for everyday services, and absolutely no spares for busy periods. There are not enough essential staff, whether train drivers, nurses, care workers, but more than enough managers and consultants. The country is broken. It will take a long time to repair it, and too many people don’t want to spend the money to do so, in case they have to pay more tax, receive lower dividends or give up some of their inheritance. The country is being destroyed by selfish, entitled bastards.
Comments
A corpse rotting from the top is true. But that manager is still a jumped up dip stick out of his comfort zone. Last season was based on Rashfords and Casemiro form not the manager.
The only thing really you have to complain about is the Rwanda policy, and the 40 days of Truss
I'd also reduce DB scheme benefits (or tax them higher) and use the money saved to increase tax relief on DC schemes but ONLY on non-advised plans (SIPPS) or on advised plans where the charges are no higher than the revised auto enrolment charge cap.
https://www.whsmith.co.uk/gifts-cards-and-home/other-cards/notecards/gao00090/
Spending is high, but everything that spending is meant to fund seems to be creaking, cracking or collapsing.
Some of that is undoubtedly age pressures, and some is probably underinvestment from previous decades finally turning round to bite us on the bottom.
But all of it?
As for state pensions, they are a pittance and for all that the triple lock might make them unaffordable eventually, that will not happen for the foreseeable future.
Among other things.
Johnson’s purge of Remainers from the Parliamentary party seemed savage; understandable to remove them from his Government of course.
On a totally separate topic it’s good to see my fellow oldie, Big G, taking part in the discussions again.
Only 4 months to go - ish 👍
Can you imagine Jan Leeming doing a countdown ending with the middle finger for BBC
News?
Reality tv & Social media have a lot to answer for; people feel the need, and are encouraged, to share everything they’re thinking, all of the time
I really hope to God Labour's next intake is not full of absolute morons otherwise I will be abstaining.
But the worst doublethink for me, predicted at the time, is those complaining about the debt we are in now we’re those calling for longer lockdowns and shouting down anyone who pointed out the dangers
Am in Germany. Everything shut yesterday. A pleasing lack of garish home decorations.
Its not even a skewed moral compass. Its just plain wrong.
Not true history. Even amongst brexiteers there was different imaginings what Brexit is - much of business for Brexit didn’t think it would mean a regime where they couldn’t recruit from abroad where they needed it. Gastro pubs and care home owners voting for Brexit then not being able to recruit chefs for example.
The country voted for”Brexit” without clear definition what Brexit actually was, it spilled over to Parliament and government who appreciated they had to implement Brexit, without knowing what it was in detail, hence the most unexplainable political slogan ever - Brexit means Brexit.
If you did something deliberately, then you made a rational decision to do it, and did it. Any apology is therefore a lie.
If something was pure accident, there's no real reason to apologise.
The only time you should apologise is if something genuinely has unforeseeable and unintended consequences.
This falls into the first category and Cleverly is therefore lying. What he should have said was, yes I sometimes tell bad taste jokes, so do many of you, for the absence of doubt I take date rape extremely seriously.
The point has been made about record taxes and record spending happing at the same time as front line services collapse due to lack of cash. Even if you think its fine for the Home Secretary to joke about rape or any of the other apocalypsofuck idiocy, from a policy perspective the government are a disaster.
All that money being spent. Burnt. Nothing but ash left to rain down on services. Its literal tax and spend, without even anything to show for it. Yet Tories insist you have to avoid Labour who would tax and spend and waste your money. Mate on mine in the pub on Thursday still pushing the line.
Frogs. Boiled to death. In denial about being boiled. Pitiful to see.
Abbott drinks a Mojito on the overground: A Scandal. Proof Labour Cannot Be Trusted. She Must Resign.
Cleverly jokes about rape drugs and spousal battery and there's literally nothing to see here move along.
Never mind the mental gymnastics to get into such a position, do the posters not get the screaming hypocrisy of their position?
But the mood was different. Some supported the Heath government and some supported the miners. There was a sense of purpose and fight, not of hopeless decay and sleaze. When Heath called the snap election in February 1974 with the slogan "Who Governs Britain" the answer came back "Not You Mate".
My Dad has voted Tory all his life and is not voting Tory next time. This is the truest of true blues.
The last ten years or so whenever anyone has raised a question of whether money is being spent effectively the response has been “what would you cut? How many people will die? Won’t you think of the children?”
Money is being wasted on an industrial scale. This is not a party political point: our government is world beating at it.
Sadly, that includes the LOTO...
But not a fair few decent Labour (and ex-Labour) people on here who did the decent thing.
Almost like it was all a complete waste of time
I do have a general issue with “resignation” being the only available sanction though. Cleverly was an idiot, and crass, and told an off colour joke that wasn’t funny and didn’t work. I do not remotely believe that he - or any politician of any party - thinks that use of sedatives for this purpose is acceptable.
https://twitter.com/Heccles94/status/1738515482108387695
He calls to "re-nationalise rail". With a photo of an Avanti West Coast train. AWC is run by Avanti on a DfT contract for a management fee. It is in no way "privatised". Nor is the infrastructure it runs on.
If you spent all your savings on specialist treatments that saved your life, you wouldn’t look at the empty bank balance when you were out and about again and say the money was wasted
What’s worse is, the people who advised you must spend all your savings are the ones who are now poking fun at you for being skint!
Norway or something close would have satisfied many, although, of course not the ERG.
As a Tory voter (in national elections at least) I long since made the decision to vote for someone else next time.
A fortune being sucked out of the front line by a spivocracy which has the Tories wrapped around their little fingers. So we spend record amounts on the NHS as the front line service provision is dangerously short of cash and staff and resource.
But remember folks - if you vote Labour they might tax and spend and waste your money. So you have to vote for the Tories to avoid that happening.
The sovereignty of the British parliament to make decisions and not the EU.
So the first thing you want to do is to abolish that sovereignty and not allow MPs to vote.
I passionately believe in this case he has proved his worth on anti-Semitism. And it's not me saying that, it is the JLM and BoD.
For the trot loons such a thing is heresy. They decry the service being provided by the Department for Transport and demand that it be nationalised so that the service instead can be run by the Department for Transport.
COVID was a hideous expense, but it's basically stopped being expensive. There are some ongoing costs, especially due to ongoing sickness. And hideous one off expenses happen from time to time.
The big issue is that, every single month, we are spending more than we're bringing in, putting our grocery bills on the credit card. That almost never ends well.
Bit of a lull here after making the veggie xmas dinner option before starting on the tree (running very late this year).
You say "MPs", constitutionally (and legally) a resolution of the House of Commons means nothing.
In an international context, "sovereignty" just means the UK can make its own decisions. The internal decision-making process is irrelevant (and is up to us to determine)
Management contracts, overhead and waste I am sure is part of it. But a fraction of the total spending and certainly doesn’t explain the issue.
And you choose to make it a partisan attack rather than to have a discussion on what we can do better.
That’s always been the issue with StateCos
Same reason that the "Remainers should have backed the May plan" thing doesn't work.
But we should also look at all of the preventative things which stopped people getting ill - things cut by this government. You said I made it a partisan attack - I did. Because the problem is partisan. Compare and contrast the NHS pre 97 and post 97, pre 10 and post 10.
What we can do better is kick the Tories out. You might not like that, but that's the reality of it.
Yet, much like the forever lockdowners who now moan about the debt, its those who find austerity all a bit distasteful that moan about the deficit.
A medium-hard rain is going to fall at some point. My feeling is that the sooner, the better. Pull off the plaster, cut the state drastically, require some personal responsibility, and watch our country thrive again.
Alternative point of view, don’t do yes no in out referendum on things where the details are more complicated, and the nuance best delved into by democratic representatives. Many who believed in Brexit didn’t get the Brexit they wanted, the different types of brexits were not on the ballot paper in that type of referendum.
The EU in 2016 was very different to the Common Market that the country joined. It was inevitably going to continue to evolve and likely integrate further.
The Brexit referendum was most likely going to be the only chance to vote on the topic for decades, if ever again.
So if you didn’t like the idea of gradual sublimation of the UK there was no alternative regardless of the form of Brexit
Your boys f**ked up. Own it.
I'm personally very relieved; I fear we'd still be semi-detached and the Brexit wars would still be raging.
Or we might just get stuck in a cycle of ruinous spending - inflation - devaluation - default - constant decline, like Argentina. I hope, and expect, that we will choose the path of economic literacy, at least for a while, but if a man who campaigned to make Corbyn Prime Minister is in Downing Street, as seems probable, the declinist path is certainly more likely than I'd like to think..
You were doing well up to there. The problems are -
1) that means spending billions in public money without political accountability.
2) it assumes the “professional” managers would be any different to the current management. In this country it is Neon Fascist Imperialism to have things run by actual domain experts. The trains would be run by other #NU10K.
In the US, NASA did fixed price bids for Commercial Cargo to the International Space Station. This worked, was notably cheap - so cheap in fact that there were multiple vendors. Senator Diane Feinstein complained that her staff weren’t getting enough paperwork on the program. AKA “I can’t micromanage this, therefore it is bad,”
This current govt is the most left wing of my lifetime, and needs electoral thumping on that basis alone; I don't expect Starmer to be any less left-wing. But I do expect the markets to take fright at some point.
I expect an economically dry as dust, no in work benefits, much lower pensions, no gift aid, no foreign aid, cut 5 or 6 whole govt departments etc etc Govt to emerge at some point. Hopefully not after an IMF bailout, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
I was talking specifically about those Remainers in Parliament who voted down probably the best Brexit deal they could have hoped for because they thought they could prevent Brexit happening at all.
They gambled and lost.
They f**ked up. And people need to accept that.
As it happens, this is probably the first post I've ever agreed with you on.
Because most followers of politics like to maintain a sheen of academic rigour and need all their conclusions to be explainable as logical, they never admit this, but at its core it’s all just the ashes of the referendum
The only betrayal of the Referendum vote were the attempts to ignore it between 2016-2019
Have a very happy Christmas
The left seem to think it is tax cuts that did for Truss on the markets.
Whilst in reality it was massive, unfunded growth in state expenditure. You know, the sort of thing they're always advocating.
They're in for a shock, methinks....
The Civilised Leavers who planned to use the XL Bullies of Brexit (Cummings and Farage) to get Leave over the line, then dump them to get a feather soft Brexit in alliance with the Remainers. They really made a mess of things.
The Remainers, as you have said. And I'd add those who exaggerated the extreme potential downside, when the central case (a slow ongoing puncture) was bad enough.
The May government, who probably couldn't have reached out to the opposition, but didn't try.
Comrade Jez, who let his ego get in the way of a Government of Sane Brexit.
But most of all, those who campaigned for Brexit, then foisted an incredibly hard Brexit on the rest of us. Tactical geniuses, but strategically idiotic, because they largely denied the cost and inconvenience that would arise.
God bless us, one and all. Maybe change the second word to help.
To coin an au courant phrase, your boys f**ked up. Own it.
Arguably the protagonists were all within the Conservative party and its offshoots.
I'm only still in the party to ensure they are replaced by someone who actually wants to cut the state.
In 25 years whether we are in our out of the EU will have made very little difference to the trajectory of the UK
(But yes, lots of people got things very wrong. May be it was unlucky.
At its core,I think there was deep discontent among the voters and Brexit happened to be the issue they latched onto to make their point. Possibly Farage sensed that - possibly he got lucky. The fundamental issue was - and remains - that the political class is not governing in the interests of individual citizens but are too focused on the macro statistics rather than looking at the lived experience)
“ Barwell goes on to describe a meeting with the Labour leadership held on May 6, where he claims that Starmer “objected to the language on customs” used in one of the bilateral documents. “I pointed out that we had lifted it from his letter of April 22 — he was objecting to his own policy,” Barwell writes.
Once the talks broke down, Barwell writes, “Labour didn’t have any confidence that whoever succeeded her would abide by any deal, and it was pretty clear Keir was not prepared to settle for anything that didn’t include a commitment to a confirmatory vote.
“I’m not sure whether the Shadow Cabinet realised at the time, but they had killed off the last chance for a compromise Brexit…”
https://insidecroydon.com/2021/09/13/according-to-barwell-starmer-cost-labour-the-2019-election/