A selection of the front pages as more horror stories seep out – politicalbetting.com

Leon said:

Like I said. Kicking off


“Jordanians broke through the army cordon and are heading towards the border with #Israel.

#IsraelPalestineConflict”

https://x.com/thegeoview/status/1712749357374812301?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

maxh said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

DavidL said:

maxh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

A rather grim warning by Israel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-says-israeli-military-warns-11-mln-gazans-relocate-south-2023-10-13/

And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?

The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.

There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.

Genuine, not loaded question.
Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).

I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.

Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.

The Max that said this? Formatting-willing, perhaps someone else said it but it appears he did.

"The tricky question for me is the impact on civilians. I’m sympathetic to the comparisons with Germany in WW2 - a regime needed annihilating and there was no way to avoid civilian deaths."

And I disagree with him on that. I do rarely agree with you on some things as well you know. In spite of what you might think the world is not black and white. It is a concept you might consider exploring rather than constantly harking back to historical irrelevances.

Whereas I often agree with you Richard and am uncertain of my views on this. What solution would you suggest that doesn’t involve civilian deaths?

DavidL said:

JosiasJessop said:

There are reports that another Russian ship has suffered a smoking incident.

Although as all that can be seen is black smoke around it, it might just have started its engines...

The Russian fleet is being driven out of Sevastopol and the Crimea by drone technology and the longer distance missiles Ukraine now has. Just like tanks, we are seeing significantly expensive capital assets becoming liabilities as the nature of warfare changes before our eyes.

Nigelb said:

FeersumEnjineeya said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

MaxPB said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

DavidL said:

maxh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

A rather grim warning by Israel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-says-israeli-military-warns-11-mln-gazans-relocate-south-2023-10-13/

And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?

The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.

There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.

Genuine, not loaded question.
Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).

I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.

Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.

The moment Israel decides that any level of collateral damage is unacceptable is the moment Israel ceases to exist because Hamas already trap civilians on all of their terrorist outposts to ensure there is always collateral damage to civilians and civilian infrastructure.

In case you missed it my argument is not that there will be no collatoral damage. It has been with some on here (Bart especially) who claim that that Israel should drive the whole of Gaza into the sea and that there are no limits to acceptable civilian deaths as long as Hamas are destroyed.

As others have pointed out Bart is encouraging genocide as the answer to Israel's problems without realising that it is exactly that cycle of violence which has perpetuated this war for the last 75 years.

You really are the voice of reason on this issue, Richard. I'm too busy with work to post much at the moment, but I agree wholeheartedly with every post of yours that I've seen on these terrible events.

I'd go along with that - but I have to acknowledge that I cannot (and I suspect nether can Richard) come up with any particularly good solutions. And in any event, at this point Israel will do what it will do.

HYUFD said:

Carnyx said:

Leon said:

Carnyx said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.

Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?

@HYUFD absolutely did not praise the Nuremberg rallies per se. It was an argument about the benefits and virtues of religious faith. Actually quite a sensitive and philosophical debate for post lagershed PB

Someone praised humanism and @HYUFD rightly scoffed at it saying it lacked the mystique, theatre and majesty of great religion, and that even the Nuremberg rallies or tawdry modern Anglicanism were more compelling than the dreary rituals of humanism

So Herr Head of the Chief Office of Construction Speer gets five stars on PB, then. Not so much, the happy clappy wing of the C of E.

But it might have escaped notice that humanism, and quite a few religions, reject ritual as leading to error.

(And thanks for the reply - I was wondering.)

Yes and the whole point was without religious ritual the ritual of ultra nationalism becomes more attractive as an alternative

MattW said:

Sean_F said:

maxh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

maxh said:

1,500 Palestinians dead.
1,200 Israelis dead.
1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded.
400,000 already displaced.
6000 bombs dropped on Gaza.
What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?

Civilian lives are equal. Always have been, always will be.

The problem for Gaza's civilians is that they elected psychopaths as their government and continue to support them and continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew.

Hamas have done things over the last week that are incomprehensible. And will be crushed as a result. Some of the innocent civilians will be as appalled as the rest of civilisation is - we need to get them out of harms way. Others celebrate.

So what do we do? Say "Free Palestine" where Palestine is a terror state run by elected genocidal psychopaths. Free it to do what? I want to save Palestine. We saved Germany and the free world by bombing it into submission and the nazi leaders into their graves. The same is coming for Gaza. Which is why the innocent civilians should head south.

Here then is the challenge for Egypt and the Arab world. A significant number of people are going to flee to the border, whether voluntarily now or running for their lives shortly. You say "Free Palestine". But are you going to continue to imprison them and leave them to die at the hands of Hamas?

Because that is the truth. The people who want to slaughter the citizens of Gaza are not the IDF. It is Hamas. And I am told to provide succour to psychopaths? No.

Thanks for a thoughtful answer even though it is clear from your posts that you feel passionately about this.

The problem for Gaza's civilians is that they elected psychopaths In 2007 or so, yes. And I can see that the nation/state of Gaza bears responsibility for this. I find it hard to ascribe responsibility for this situation to the current population of Gaza, especially given the median age and proportion of the country too young to have voted in 2007.

continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew. Whereas this statement indicates much more current responsibility for the extremism of Hamas amongst the population as a whole. I haven’t heard this claim before and can’t immediately verify it. Do you have a reliable source?

You say "Free Palestine" Sadly, it has been a good few years since I have been idealistic enough to sign up to pithy slogans. My view is basically that civilians are rarely to blame for the actions of their governments, and this is more true for Palestinians in Gaza than it is for Israelis because of the relative recency of elections. I can see the intractable problem Israel currently faces and don’t see another

JosiasJessop said:

DavidL said:

maxh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

A rather grim warning by Israel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-says-israeli-military-warns-11-mln-gazans-relocate-south-2023-10-13/

And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?

The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.

There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.

Genuine, not loaded question.
Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).

I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.

There's another angle to this as well: Hamas's actions last weekend were straight out of ISIS's playbook. I'm not Jewish, but there's no way I'd feel safe living under Hamas control in the West Bank, or any territory they controlled, as I'm not Muslim. In fact, you're in trouble if you're a Shia Muslim (AIUI Hezbollah is mainly Sunni).

But if you're Christian, or gay, or female - then I'd much rather live in Israel than under any of these sh*ts.

Thanks both for the replies. I’m with Foxy on this - Hamas themselves deserve whatever revenge Israel can mete out.

The tricky question for me is the impact on civilians. I’m sympathetic to the comparisons with Germany in WW2 - a regime needed annihilating and there was no way to avoid civilian deaths. Turning that to Gaza I can quite imagine that Hamas are happy to use hospitals, schools etc as civilian shields.

Yet many on here seem to go further, identifying all Gazans with Hamas and holding them responsible.

If the line is ‘Israel needs to do this and there is no way to do so without killling innocents’, I can understand that, though am deeply uneasy. If the line is ‘Gazans are getting what is coming to them for electing Hamas back in 2007 or so’ I think that is blind, indiscriminate hatred that is morally equivalent to violent antisemitism

That, too, is a very thoughtful response.

Picking this paragraph for comment on such material in education curricula:

continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew. Whereas this statement indicates much more current responsibility for the extremism of Hamas amongst the population as a whole. I haven’t heard this claim before and can’t immediately verify it. Do you have a reliable source?


Education systems including material demonising the Jew, defining the Jew as like various animals, the elimination of Israel aka "The Zionist Entity", and so on, have been parts of education curricula in some places in the Middle East for generations. There have been occasional reports in Western media going back to - to my memory - the 1980s; one of the reasons I have taken an interest in these is because I lived in BD7 for several years whilst at University back then.

One challenge is that such teaching can be based on elements of orthodox Islam, but so can more tolerant narratives.

Occasionally we have had scandals in this country when such material turns up in Mosques, Madrasas (using the term to indicate Islam-based outside school education classes - Muslim 'Sunday Schools') or Schools.

Here's a Guardian report on the content of a BBC Panorama from 2010, for example. Note the reference to the Saudi Arabian curriculum:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/nov/22/bbc-panorama-islamic-schools-antisemitism

One route where this type of approach gained a foothold in the UK was Imams funded by countries such as Saudi Arabia being appointed to new and small UK Mosques established in the 1970s.

DavidL said:

viewcode said:

MattW said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Taz said:

Another day, another article from Simon Jenkins in The Guardian pouring scorn on Labours plans to actually provide the homes people need.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/labour-s-supposedly-bold-new-towns-idea-has-been-tried-before-and-it-failed/ar-AA1i6Zwr?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=7a3b2af16c884cd4b9845a74629e93cb&ei=16

Jenkins is elite level Boomer nimbyism.

That column reminds me of a quote in Asimov about a report from a bureaucrat where the content exactly evened itself out, creating a total value of exactly zero.

I remember it (the Asimov passage)! It's from one of the Foundations, can't remember which: I think the first book.

I think the character was also asked about an archeological question, to which the reply was along the lines of "Well person X says this, but person Y says that". Asimov's in-universe stand-in is excoriating about this approach, which is why I can't use it without wincing...

Yes, the point was that this person considered themselves an archaeologist because he was very knowledgeable about the opinions of others. The idea that he might go and look himself and form a view that way made him incredulous.

I personally think of that part when reading scientific or medical papers which cite large numbers of other papers which had utterly banal conclusions to add "weight" to their own work.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

Interview with Hamas leader

It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel

https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.

"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.

viewcode said:

Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiW6hhC6Bs (21mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSFJaFuWU0 (55mins)

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

Interview with Hamas leader

It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel

https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.

"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.

2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.

Nigelb said:

maxh said:

squareroot2 said:

maxh said:

1,500 Palestinians dead.
1,200 Israelis dead.
1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded.
400,000 already displaced.
6000 bombs dropped on Gaza.
What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?

Perhaps it's because Hamas attacked Israel and murdered innocent people and cut babies throats...you don't expect Israel to stand by do you. You wouldn't if it was your own child.

100% I would be all for a murderous rampage.

But then I also would be if I was a Gazan Dad who has never supported Hamas and yet a bomb drops on my baby.

So I don’t feel that is an answer, other than blind revenge. Which I have sympathy with but don’t think will improve the situation for either side.

It's probably true to say that both Hamas and Netenyahu (who has encouraged them in the past) both expected, and to some extent desired this cycle of revenge.
Hamas because it keeps them in power - and also because they're just into killing - Netenyahu because he thought (correctly indeed) that it would doom any prospect of a two state solution.

Both seem to have miscalculated how far the other would go, and the consequences of that.

TheKitchenCabinet said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

JosiasJessop said:

Another point to make is this:

Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.

Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control.
Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.

Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.

The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.

The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.

The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.

TOPPING said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

JosiasJessop said:

Another point to make is this:

Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.

Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control.
Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.

Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.

The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.

The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.

The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.

Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.

JosiasJessop said:

viewcode said:

Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiW6hhC6Bs (21mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSFJaFuWU0 (55mins)

There's something about Task and Purpose that sets my b/s sensor going. I don't know what it is, and I might be being unfair, but he doesn't feel quite legit to me.

FrancisUrquhart said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

Interview with Hamas leader

It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel

https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.

"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.

2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.

Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.

The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.

This was carefully crafted over time.

Eabhal said:

DavidL said:

viewcode said:

Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiW6hhC6Bs (21mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSFJaFuWU0 (55mins)

He has been an incredible champion for his people and his country but there is no doubt that this is Zelenskyy's biggest challenge to date. How does he keep the coalition of support he has built focused on his war? It is not going to be easy.

He's making a valiant attempt at linking Israel to Ukraine.

I remain surprised that the US hasn't done the same - a new axis of evil. Iran and Russia.

DavidL said:

Eabhal said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

Interview with Hamas leader

It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel

https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.

"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.

2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.

Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.

The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.

This was carefully crafted over time.

I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.

Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.

Incompetence is nearly always more likely than conspiracy and you may be right. It may also be that Bibi saw this as an opportunity as well as a threat and chose not to hear the warnings.

MaxPB said:

JosiasJessop said:

Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...

The day of jihad has started.

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Knife attack at school in France....1 dead, 2 seriously injured.

Kicking off. Likesaid

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

BBC News - Knife attack at school in France....1 dead, 2 seriously injured.

Kicking off. Likesaid

Let just hold on a sec and wait for the facts...

maxh said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Nigelb said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

A rather grim warning by Israel.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-says-israeli-military-warns-11-mln-gazans-relocate-south-2023-10-13/

And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?

The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.

There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.

Genuine, not loaded question.
Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).

Roger said:

kinabalu said:

JosiasJessop said:

Another point to make is this:

Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.

Yes. And big time. Israel have an established MO to respond disproportionately (for punishment and deterrence) and here they are responding to something especially atrocious. It's going to be bad.

Wasn't 2023 the year Nostradamus (not Leondamus or even Rogerdamus) predicted The Great War in the middle East?

Alanbrooke said:

Looking in to next week Israel will have to up its game in the propaganda war.

This week the horror of Hamas attacks has dominated the press, next week will be all about the horrors of Gaza. Lots of suffering children pictures and dead bodies.

The usual crowd will shroud wave and express esratz empathy for Gazans while encouraging the Islamo-fascists to keep killing, but in doing so seek to move all the pressure to Israel.

The size of the butchers bill is probably too much for most people to take in, it's back to the old stalinist saying - one deaths a tragedy a million is a statistic.

The Israelis need to keep the media story small and personal maybe focus on individual hostages if they are to keep the narrative on their side

Leon said:

Let’s not all jump to conclusions just because some Arab-looking madman with a knife is killing teachers while shouting Allahu Akbar on the official Hamas “day of Jihad”

Could easily be a dispute over lunch money

JosiasJessop said:

Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...

DavidL said:

Eabhal said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

Interview with Hamas leader

It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel

https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.

"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.

2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.

Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.

The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.

This was carefully crafted over time.

I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.

Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.

Incompetence is nearly always more likely than conspiracy and you may be right. It may also be that Bibi saw this as an opportunity as well as a threat and chose not to hear the warnings.

Alanbrooke said:

Roger said:

kinabalu said:

JosiasJessop said:

Another point to make is this:

Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.

Yes. And big time. Israel have an established MO to respond disproportionately (for punishment and deterrence) and here they are responding to something especially atrocious. It's going to be bad.

Wasn't 2023 the year Nostradamus (not Leondamus or even Rogerdamus) predicted The Great War in the middle East?

Given he predicted just about every year was the Great War Im not getting too excited

Taz said:

MaxPB said:

TOPPING said:

TheKitchenCabinet said:

twistedfirestopper3 said:

.

JosiasJessop said:

Another point to make is this:

Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.

Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control.
Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.

Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.

The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.

The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.

The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.

Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.

Obviously we wouldn't but look at how antisemitism is being tolerated all over the west because no one wants to confront their homegrown militant Muslim population. Props to Macron for calling them out, I wish our PM had even 10% of the backbone to also call out these thugs threatening British Jews with violence and put and end to their campaigns.

Not just the PM, the met, institutions, celebs on social media and many other politicians across the spectrum.

Alanbrooke said:

Irish government siding with Mordor


https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/10/12/varadkar-accuses-israeli-government-of-breaching-international-law-in-gaza-siege/

theakes said:

Egyptian intelligence apparently informed the Israel something was going to happen on a large scale. Appears to have been ignored or buried.

Nigelb said:

.

FrancisUrquhart said:

A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....

A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.

He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.

Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.

The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.

Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.

This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.

Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"

Leon said:

Nigelb said:

.

JosiasJessop said:

Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...

A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said.
Guardian.

The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual

Taz said:

Alanbrooke said:

Irish government siding with Mordor


https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/10/12/varadkar-accuses-israeli-government-of-breaching-international-law-in-gaza-siege/

Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.

Leon said:

Taz said:

Alanbrooke said:

Irish government siding with Mordor


https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/10/12/varadkar-accuses-israeli-government-of-breaching-international-law-in-gaza-siege/

Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.

The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing

But the Irish lead the way

Nigelb said:

.

FrancisUrquhart said:

A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....

A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.

He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.

Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.

The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.

Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.

This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.

Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"

Nigelb said:

.

FrancisUrquhart said:

A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....

A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.

He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.

Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.

The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.

Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.

This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.

Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"

Stark_Dawning said:

As we're all now agreed that Muslim extremists in the Middle East need annihilating whatever the cost, doesn't this prove, after all these years, that Tony Blair was right, right and right again?

Leon said:

Nigelb said:

Leon said:

Nigelb said:

.

JosiasJessop said:

Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...

A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said.
Guardian.

The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual

I'd hesitate to ascribe anything to Hamas's pitiful "global day of jihad" without firm evidence.

Probably doesn’t feel that “pitiful” to the family of the dead French teacher