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A selection of the front pages as more horror stories seep out – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xP said:

    Penddu2 said:

    So we are finally at the knockout stages of the RWC - and my predictions below are in order of predictability.....

    You are predicting all 4 winners will be Northern Hemisphere, specifically 6 Nations teams

    Could have had good odds on that at the start of the tournament...
    When did Fiji join the Six Nations? Not a big follower of rugby so must have missed that!
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Gateshead Millennium Bridge "tilted" 10am yesterday!



    I've cycled over it plenty of times. It is a lovely bridge. A real classy pub right next to it on the Toon side too !!!

    Have you enjoyed your stop in Newcastle ?

  • An eye for an eye and the whole world should've gone to Specsavers!

    Ironically, the whole eye for an eye business dictates proportionate retaliation. An eye for an eye not wiping out the whole village for an eye. Obviously things get more complicated when it comes to decapitated babies.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Barnesian said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Thanks to whoever linked to the video about TfL stopping one-day travelcards next year.

    With this and the Ulez extension, it really does seem as though Khan wants to stop visitors from those weird places called "out of London".

    He thinks he can make more money from people who can’t vote him out.
    That's exactly it. Currently, if we go to London (which we do a few times a year), we just get a train ticket plus travelcard - often a family ticket (which is cheapest can vary from which station we travel from). It's really easy.

    I've no idea what we do now - especially as our son, who is nine, does not have an Oystercard, mobile, or bank card. Will we have to get him an Oystercard and keep money on it just in case we want to travel to London?
    Work be long b4 pensioner bus passes are withdrawn in london
    Good riddance.

    It's always been absurd that multi-millionaire pensioners travel for free while poor workers pay full price and students only get 30% off. I have some relatives in that category, both of whom admit its ridiculous.
    And what about pensioners on the state pension who have very little disposable income. Not all pensioners are multi millionaires.
    The point is, it's completely the wrong criterion to choose, since whether you are a pensioner or not is a terrible predictor of your wealth, or the extent to which you travel. Some pensioners need free travel, some don't - some are wealthy, some aren't, some travel every day and some never travel. It is a lousy proxy for those variables. Some blue-eyed people need free travel, some don't, but we don't give blue-eyed people free travel.

    Giving specific discounts is a stupid way to help particular groups, because the amount they use the service differs widely. Much better to spend the money on cash handouts directly rather than tie it to specific consumption of a service, which they may or may not use. But it's a popular gimmick for politicians, so of course we're stuck with it for a while.
    Free travel and the fuel allowance for pensioners should be taxed. Poor pensioners will pay nothing extra. Wealthy ones will pay up to 45% back. And apply NI to pensioners while you're at it. Again poorer pensioners will pay nothing extra. Simple.
    Nothing simple about it , the bent and twisted dreams of rich right wing Tories on here is not a barometer of the country. Starving pensioners to give yourselves even more loot is just what I would expect , just surprised there are not workhouses built yet.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Nigelb said:

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    The last square inch is going to be pretty crowded.
    Hence the need for safe havens.

    Or its going to get pretty bloody but hopefully somewhere that claims to support Palestinians has seen some humanity and offers refuge by then.
    Do you think the UK should provide a safe haven for everyone from the Gaza Strip who say they are civilians, or just other countries?
    Other countries.

    We stand with Israel.

    Let those who stand with Palestine take them.
    You're saying that our standing with Israel exempts us from any responsibility for the couple of million refugees that you have been arguing should leave Gaza ?

    Interesting argument.
    If the Gazans leave Gaza they won't be going back. I think everyone knows this.
    Which is why the Neocon tribute acts want them to be gone
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    Ukraine: that Russian push on Avdiivka is coming at a mighty cost, so far for little gain.

    Todays casualty numbers: 1,030 military personnel, 26 tanks, 49 armoured fighting vehicles, 44 artillery. That's 3,000 troops lost in 3 days. If this was being driven by the military - well, it wouldn't have been started as these levels of losses would have been obvious. Somone in the Kremlin - someone running for re-election in March - has said he needs a win before winter closes the campaign. A win to put before the voters. Regardless of cost.

    And regardless of the weaknesses it might cause elsewhere along the line, where they have robbed Peter to pay Paul. Especially when the F-16s and ATACMS come out to play to exploit those weaknesses.

    It does seem to have been a major attack intending to encircle the Ukranians in the town.

    Both sides seem to be finding it impossible to break defensive lines and create a war of movement. The attrition drags on.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747
    Leon said:

    World War 3 it is, then

    Who cares! Oyster cards!
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    The BBC won’t

    Today programme - Palestinian representative listened to in respectful silence. “Medical Aid for Palestinians” charity CEO listened to in respectful silence. IDF representative constantly interrupted with questions like “how easy is it to evacuate someone in an ICU bed”
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    The cause was established by the police as a diesel car. The fact lots of people on social media jumped at the opportunity to blame EVs was totally unsurprising, of course. But ICE cars are big fuel tanks on wheels filled with dozens of litres of highly flammable liquid.

    It's like when smokers argue the health effects of vapes are unproven so it's not worth the risk in switching.
  • maxh said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:
    And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
    The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
    Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

    It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
    There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

    Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

    This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

    Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
    Genuine, not loaded question.
    Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
    I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
    How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
    Next you will be asking why no-one, not even you, has any strong views about wars in Yemen, Syria and large parts of Africa, and that way madness lies.
  • Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    How do you shift 1.1 million people in 24 hours?
    Collateral damage a few 100k out of existence should help things.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Nigelb said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    An opportunity lost for another revolution in soft furnishings moment.
    I've done a video on it (live at 4pm). Here's what happened:
    Diesel Range Rover catches fire on the way into the car park. Is abandoned in the middle of a floor and burns fiercely.
    .
    This is my partially informed opinion... The RR was stuck in slow moving traffic and got completely heat soaked with mega high EGTs. Oil seal lets go on the hot side of the turbo and engine oil drips onto the exhaust manifold which is glowing redder than Leon's glans in Soi Cowboy. Up she goes...

    I've blown up a few diesel engines in my time and engine oil is easier to ignite than the diesel fuel.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829
    malcolmg said:

    Barnesian said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Thanks to whoever linked to the video about TfL stopping one-day travelcards next year.

    With this and the Ulez extension, it really does seem as though Khan wants to stop visitors from those weird places called "out of London".

    He thinks he can make more money from people who can’t vote him out.
    That's exactly it. Currently, if we go to London (which we do a few times a year), we just get a train ticket plus travelcard - often a family ticket (which is cheapest can vary from which station we travel from). It's really easy.

    I've no idea what we do now - especially as our son, who is nine, does not have an Oystercard, mobile, or bank card. Will we have to get him an Oystercard and keep money on it just in case we want to travel to London?
    Work be long b4 pensioner bus passes are withdrawn in london
    Good riddance.

    It's always been absurd that multi-millionaire pensioners travel for free while poor workers pay full price and students only get 30% off. I have some relatives in that category, both of whom admit its ridiculous.
    And what about pensioners on the state pension who have very little disposable income. Not all pensioners are multi millionaires.
    The point is, it's completely the wrong criterion to choose, since whether you are a pensioner or not is a terrible predictor of your wealth, or the extent to which you travel. Some pensioners need free travel, some don't - some are wealthy, some aren't, some travel every day and some never travel. It is a lousy proxy for those variables. Some blue-eyed people need free travel, some don't, but we don't give blue-eyed people free travel.

    Giving specific discounts is a stupid way to help particular groups, because the amount they use the service differs widely. Much better to spend the money on cash handouts directly rather than tie it to specific consumption of a service, which they may or may not use. But it's a popular gimmick for politicians, so of course we're stuck with it for a while.
    Free travel and the fuel allowance for pensioners should be taxed. Poor pensioners will pay nothing extra. Wealthy ones will pay up to 45% back. And apply NI to pensioners while you're at it. Again poorer pensioners will pay nothing extra. Simple.
    Nothing simple about it , the bent and twisted dreams of rich right wing Tories on here is not a barometer of the country. Starving pensioners to give yourselves even more loot is just what I would expect , just surprised there are not workhouses built yet.
    Don't give them ideas. We have the Speenhamland System in the UK already, because employers won't pay people a decent wage, so the taxpayer has to subsidise them. The wotkhouses were the next bit after Speenhamland IIRC.
  • maxh said:

    1,500 Palestinians dead.
    1,200 Israelis dead.
    1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded.
    400,000 already displaced.
    6000 bombs dropped on Gaza.
    What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?

    Civilian lives are equal. Always have been, always will be.

    The problem for Gaza's civilians is that they elected psychopaths as their government and continue to support them and continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew.

    Hamas have done things over the last week that are incomprehensible. And will be crushed as a result. Some of the innocent civilians will be as appalled as the rest of civilisation is - we need to get them out of harms way. Others celebrate.

    So what do we do? Say "Free Palestine" where Palestine is a terror state run by elected genocidal psychopaths. Free it to do what? I want to save Palestine. We saved Germany and the free world by bombing it into submission and the nazi leaders into their graves. The same is coming for Gaza. Which is why the innocent civilians should head south.

    Here then is the challenge for Egypt and the Arab world. A significant number of people are going to flee to the border, whether voluntarily now or running for their lives shortly. You say "Free Palestine". But are you going to continue to imprison them and leave them to die at the hands of Hamas?

    Because that is the truth. The people who want to slaughter the citizens of Gaza are not the IDF. It is Hamas. And I am told to provide succour to psychopaths? No.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    The BBC won’t

    Today programme - Palestinian representative listened to in respectful silence. “Medical Aid for Palestinians” charity CEO listened to in respectful silence. IDF representative constantly interrupted with questions like “how easy is it to evacuate someone in an ICU bed”
    It was really quite noticeable. They are scared to challenge Palestinians even less than a week after Hamas murdered and mutilated over a thousand Israelis in cold blood.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    edited October 2023
    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,581
    malcolmg said:

    Barnesian said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Thanks to whoever linked to the video about TfL stopping one-day travelcards next year.

    With this and the Ulez extension, it really does seem as though Khan wants to stop visitors from those weird places called "out of London".

    He thinks he can make more money from people who can’t vote him out.
    That's exactly it. Currently, if we go to London (which we do a few times a year), we just get a train ticket plus travelcard - often a family ticket (which is cheapest can vary from which station we travel from). It's really easy.

    I've no idea what we do now - especially as our son, who is nine, does not have an Oystercard, mobile, or bank card. Will we have to get him an Oystercard and keep money on it just in case we want to travel to London?
    Work be long b4 pensioner bus passes are withdrawn in london
    Good riddance.

    It's always been absurd that multi-millionaire pensioners travel for free while poor workers pay full price and students only get 30% off. I have some relatives in that category, both of whom admit its ridiculous.
    And what about pensioners on the state pension who have very little disposable income. Not all pensioners are multi millionaires.
    The point is, it's completely the wrong criterion to choose, since whether you are a pensioner or not is a terrible predictor of your wealth, or the extent to which you travel. Some pensioners need free travel, some don't - some are wealthy, some aren't, some travel every day and some never travel. It is a lousy proxy for those variables. Some blue-eyed people need free travel, some don't, but we don't give blue-eyed people free travel.

    Giving specific discounts is a stupid way to help particular groups, because the amount they use the service differs widely. Much better to spend the money on cash handouts directly rather than tie it to specific consumption of a service, which they may or may not use. But it's a popular gimmick for politicians, so of course we're stuck with it for a while.
    Free travel and the fuel allowance for pensioners should be taxed. Poor pensioners will pay nothing extra. Wealthy ones will pay up to 45% back. And apply NI to pensioners while you're at it. Again poorer pensioners will pay nothing extra. Simple.
    Nothing simple about it , the bent and twisted dreams of rich right wing Tories on here is not a barometer of the country. Starving pensioners to give yourselves even more loot is just what I would expect , just surprised there are not workhouses built yet.
    :smile: I'm hardly a right wing Tory! And I'm a pensioner in my eighties.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    World War 3 it is, then

    Who cares! Oyster cards!
    Who cares about transport in London other than the over subsidised people who live there
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,224
    edited October 2023

    maxh said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:
    And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
    The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
    Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

    It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
    There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

    Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

    This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

    Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
    Genuine, not loaded question.
    Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
    I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
    How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
    Next you will be asking why no-one, not even you, has any strong views about wars in Yemen, Syria and large parts of Africa, and that way madness lies.
    Oh but I have an answer to that one John! Just look at the thread header…I can pin that one on the attention span of our media. Unless we go digging (and who has time for that) they’re easily forgotten about because they’re not in the news. This is different - both are equally salient at the moment.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,243
    Foxy said:

    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    How do you shift 1.1 million people in 24 hours?
    Along destroyed roads, without fuel, food, water, including the hospitalised, and without stopping the bombing and artillery fire.
    So would you prefer Israel not to give a warning? Or perhaps to turn the other cheek and let evil flourish?

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:

    Ukraine: that Russian push on Avdiivka is coming at a mighty cost, so far for little gain.

    Todays casualty numbers: 1,030 military personnel, 26 tanks, 49 armoured fighting vehicles, 44 artillery. That's 3,000 troops lost in 3 days. If this was being driven by the military - well, it wouldn't have been started as these levels of losses would have been obvious. Somone in the Kremlin - someone running for re-election in March - has said he needs a win before winter closes the campaign. A win to put before the voters. Regardless of cost.

    And regardless of the weaknesses it might cause elsewhere along the line, where they have robbed Peter to pay Paul. Especially when the F-16s and ATACMS come out to play to exploit those weaknesses.

    It does seem to have been a major attack intending to encircle the Ukranians in the town.

    Both sides seem to be finding it impossible to break defensive lines and create a war of movement. The attrition drags on.
    Stalemate. Shit's fucked.




    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/09/28/world/europe/russia-ukraine-war-map-front-line.html

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Mentioning a name that everyone on here associates with you seems a rather mild breach of the rules compared to your advocacy of genocide in Gaza.
    You'd think it was positively more polite than using 'Bartholomew Roberts' as a nom de plume - the identity of a mass armed robber, murderer and worse. I know Barty (sic) thinks it's a joke, but I wouldn't call myself Dr_Shipman on PB.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,319
    Barnesian said:

    malcolmg said:

    Barnesian said:

    Fishing said:

    Taz said:

    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    Thanks to whoever linked to the video about TfL stopping one-day travelcards next year.

    With this and the Ulez extension, it really does seem as though Khan wants to stop visitors from those weird places called "out of London".

    He thinks he can make more money from people who can’t vote him out.
    That's exactly it. Currently, if we go to London (which we do a few times a year), we just get a train ticket plus travelcard - often a family ticket (which is cheapest can vary from which station we travel from). It's really easy.

    I've no idea what we do now - especially as our son, who is nine, does not have an Oystercard, mobile, or bank card. Will we have to get him an Oystercard and keep money on it just in case we want to travel to London?
    Work be long b4 pensioner bus passes are withdrawn in london
    Good riddance.

    It's always been absurd that multi-millionaire pensioners travel for free while poor workers pay full price and students only get 30% off. I have some relatives in that category, both of whom admit its ridiculous.
    And what about pensioners on the state pension who have very little disposable income. Not all pensioners are multi millionaires.
    The point is, it's completely the wrong criterion to choose, since whether you are a pensioner or not is a terrible predictor of your wealth, or the extent to which you travel. Some pensioners need free travel, some don't - some are wealthy, some aren't, some travel every day and some never travel. It is a lousy proxy for those variables. Some blue-eyed people need free travel, some don't, but we don't give blue-eyed people free travel.

    Giving specific discounts is a stupid way to help particular groups, because the amount they use the service differs widely. Much better to spend the money on cash handouts directly rather than tie it to specific consumption of a service, which they may or may not use. But it's a popular gimmick for politicians, so of course we're stuck with it for a while.
    Free travel and the fuel allowance for pensioners should be taxed. Poor pensioners will pay nothing extra. Wealthy ones will pay up to 45% back. And apply NI to pensioners while you're at it. Again poorer pensioners will pay nothing extra. Simple.
    Nothing simple about it , the bent and twisted dreams of rich right wing Tories on here is not a barometer of the country. Starving pensioners to give yourselves even more loot is just what I would expect , just surprised there are not workhouses built yet.
    :smile: I'm hardly a right wing Tory! And I'm a pensioner in my eighties.
    A wolf in sheep's clothing then , should be ashamed of yourself supporting the "kill the pensioner" mob on here.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    Too early for conference bounce, I would wait until polls from early-mid next week onwards.
  • Posting very little on the Israel Palestine situation as I don't have the answers. One thought on human nature though, if I were an Israeli whose friends and family had been attacked I would want revenge, and if I were a Palestinian in Gaza I would also want revenge.

    From the outside it is clear that peace is better but not sure how realistic it is to find a path to it. It will take both extraordinary leadership and a favourable situation which are unlikely to align in the next decade or two let alone the immediate aftermath of the attacks.
  • Somehow comforting that Shapps is as shit at defending the record and actions of the Israeli government as he is of the Tory government. Consistency is a great thing.
  • TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    As more and more EVs and Hybrid cars come onto the roads we get more and more data. Statistically it isn't even a question. You see that car fire on the side of the motorway? It isn't an EV. Because whilst EV batteries burn fiercely once they cook off, they don't tend to cook off.

    Whereas there is something about Internal Combustion Engines which gives a clue about their likelihood to combust. Which they do fairly regularly. Out in the open they burn hot enough to melt tarmac. Confine them in a car park and you're going to lose the car park.

    In the Liverpool fire, the fire brigade report describes rivers of fire as flaming fuels spread the inferno. A "Waterfall of fire" spreading it between floors. Of Combustion engined cars exploding every 30 seconds at the peak.

    The issue is not EVs. No matter how hard the right want to howl at the moon, this was as simple as one of those cars with a bang bang engine and a tank of highly flammable liquid going bang. And then the flammable liquid making lots of other cars go bang.

    I think EVs threaten the manhood of some people.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    edited October 2023
    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    I think it’s pretty clear there can be no peace in Israel and Palestine until Hamas are removed. Equally Netanyahu needs to go as he has put the interests of his own political survival above the needs of the country .

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    An opportunity lost for another revolution in soft furnishings moment.
    I've done a video on it (live at 4pm). Here's what happened:
    Diesel Range Rover catches fire on the way into the car park. Is abandoned in the middle of a floor and burns fiercely.
    .
    This is my partially informed opinion... The RR was stuck in slow moving traffic and got completely heat soaked with mega high EGTs. Oil seal lets go on the hot side of the turbo and engine oil drips onto the exhaust manifold which is glowing redder than Leon's glans in Soi Cowboy. Up she goes...

    I've blown up a few diesel engines in my time and engine oil is easier to ignite than the diesel fuel.
    I remember the days when an old Foden or ERF diesel truck wouldn't start so the driver would find an old pallet, smash it up and set fire to it under the diesel tank.

    Innocent, happy times!
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Yes, people should be free to decide how secret they want their identity to be. At one end we have full transparency with OGH, or Nick Palmer. At the other end a number of posters who are completely anonymous. And in the middle quite a few (myself included) who don't use our full names but are fairly relaxed about our identities being found out.
  • Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Tbf in Leon years that would actually be World War 17.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Dura_Ace said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    We only have finite energy and attention. We've now moved on to a witch-hunt for people and organisations who aren't displaying sufficiently morose or correctly worded expressions of emotion over events in the Levant.

    And some baffling shit about London Underground tickets or something.
    Yep good point. Can you just quickly run through those mid-Beds predictions again for us including the tactical voting scenarios which might make it closer than otherwise.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    You’re cheery this morning !
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Especially when the F-16s and ATACMS come out to play to exploit those weaknesses.

    Recent events mean that the MoD is going to have to strike a delicate balance. F-16AMs are going to have to be simultaneously characterised as irrelevant relicts and war winning silver bullets.

    https://twitter.com/StateDeptPM/status/1712215248034267616
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,748

    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Foxy said:
    Generous of Israel to give such a clear warning to Gazans, which of course is also a warning to Hamas.

    Glad that Israel is seeking to maintain its humanity and do it's level best to minimise civilian casualties as it seeks to eradicate Hamas.

    It needs to do the same across every square inch of Gaza until Hamas is destroyed but trying not to kill civilians.

    Hopefully the rest of the world, especially the world that claims to support Palestinians, steps up to the plate and offers safe haven for civilians, as happens in other such conflicts, before Israel needs to give the same warning to the Southern half of Gaza.
    The last square inch is going to be pretty crowded.
    Hence the need for safe havens.

    Or its going to get pretty bloody but hopefully somewhere that claims to support Palestinians has seen some humanity and offers refuge by then.
    Do you think the UK should provide a safe haven for everyone from the Gaza Strip who say they are civilians, or just other countries?
    Other countries.

    We stand with Israel.

    Let those who stand with Palestine take them.
    Thanks for clarifying what you meant by "the rest of the world".
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    nico679 said:

    I think it’s pretty clear there can be no peace in Israel and Palestine until Hamas are removed. Equally Netanyahu needs to go as he has put the interests of his own political survival above the needs of the country .

    The view from Israel right now is that they're glad to have Bibi in charge because despite the corruption he's still someone who will take action against Hamas regardless of international condemnation etc... Israelis don't want a wet in charge at a time like this.
  • TimS said:

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Yes, people should be free to decide how secret they want their identity to be. At one end we have full transparency with OGH, or Nick Palmer. At the other end a number of posters who are completely anonymous. And in the middle quite a few (myself included) who don't use our full names but are fairly relaxed about our identities being found out.
    Hmmm, shouldn't you be focusing on helping NZ win the cricket world cup?
  • Posting very little on the Israel Palestine situation as I don't have the answers. One thought on human nature though, if I were an Israeli whose friends and family had been attacked I would want revenge, and if I were a Palestinian in Gaza I would also want revenge.

    From the outside it is clear that peace is better but not sure how realistic it is to find a path to it. It will take both extraordinary leadership and a favourable situation which are unlikely to align in the next decade or two let alone the immediate aftermath of the attacks.

    It can be done, see South Africa dismantling apartheid, Spain dismantling Francoism, or the way the western allies treated Germany after World War 2.

    But the stars have to align; you mostly need a Mandela and a de Klerk at the same moment. And that's hard, and there's no sign at all of it in the Holy (ha!) Lands.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,032
    edited October 2023

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Equally (more?) plausible scenario

    Israel invades and occupies at least part of Gaza. Establishes a permanent military presence. Hundreds of thousands are displaced, but the main fighting is over quite quickly and they return home.

    There are reprisal attacks in the West Bank and some isolated outbreaks in Western cities. The IDF face regular ambushes in Gaza. But the world's attention moves on. Perhaps there's a catastrophic flood somewhere, or a big change in the Ukraine war, or (quite feasible) a massive US bond market rout and yet another global recession.

    And another chapter in the sad ancestral story of the Arabs and Israelis draws to an unsatisfactory close.
  • TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    If we are doing car park design may I suggest a variety of payment options are provided.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,067
    .
    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Which video game are you playing this morning ?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    ...
    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Is this the same World War 3 you predicted when Russia invaded Ukraine? Brace, brace!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:
    And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
    The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
    Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

    It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
    Short term I think I can see the Israeli tactic as being to create a buffer zone, like the Golan heights, to push any military activity far enough away from the Israeli border that they can't launch rockets or stage future incursions. Presumably the plan is to occupy Gaza city, not necessarily bother with the more rural bits to the South, and station a permanent military presence there. Frankly speaking I can't see any alternative strategy that would ensure security in the South.

    Yes I expect Gazans may see this as a precursor to settlers moving in. Hopefully not. Pretty risky business if you're one of those settlers too.

    If they do occupy half of Gaza then the question is do we see a flow of Gazans from North to South, to get out of the way of the occupiers, or a flow in the opposite direction if living conditions are better in the occupied zone.
    I’m thinking along the lines of a buffer zone too but I think it would make more sense from Israel’s perspective (regardless of the rights or wrongs) to level everything from the border to Wadi Gaza (the line they’re told everyone to move to) and make the levelled area uninhabitable so that there is a very clear “dead zone” they can keep an eye on so that surprise attacks in the future will be very very unlikely as they will have miles of clear space where any activity will be noticed immediately and can be acted on if necessary.

    It’s not nice but if it gives them the feeling of more security from this happening again then they will do it.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    I think it’s pretty clear there can be no peace in Israel and Palestine until Hamas are removed. Equally Netanyahu needs to go as he has put the interests of his own political survival above the needs of the country .

    The view from Israel right now is that they're glad to have Bibi in charge because despite the corruption he's still someone who will take action against Hamas regardless of international condemnation etc... Israelis don't want a wet in charge at a time like this.
    Actually the view from Israel seems pretty unforgiving towards Netanyahu for failing to prepare for or anticipate this, and one thing Labour leaders in Israel have not been historically is wet in how they support and fund the IDF and Mossad.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    rcs1000 said:

    Penddu2 said:

    So we are finally at the knockout stages of the RWC - and my predictions below are in order of predictability.....

    The most predictable game is Wales Argentina. While Argentina started the tournament poorly, they have gradually improved and should provide Wales with stiff competion. But Wales have had a strong performance so far, and apart from their traditional 60 minute wobble have generally been dominant in their matches. Wales by +10.

    France v South Africa. This was my original prediction for the final, but Ireland spoilt that, and this game will be very close. France looked very good in their New Zealand match but have not been tested since. South Africa have had two tough games and will be fully prepared for this match. Home advantage will help and I predict France by +6

    Ireland v New Zealand. Ireland are fully deserving of their #1 world ranking, and are almost perfect in every aspect of the game. New Zealand have had a couple of poor games (by their standards) but will have done their homework on Ireland. New Zealand could continue Ireland's quarter final curse, but I predict Ireland to win by +3.

    England v Fiji. This game is very difficult to predict, and very dependent on which teams turn up. England have not impressed but seem to have developed a simple game plan - this worked well against Argentina but not so much against Samoa. Fiji played well against Wales and Australia but were poor against Portugal. I predict this game will follow a similar pattern to the Wales Fiji game - with England cruising to an early lead based on their kicking, but with Fiji countering with some punching tries. My prediction is Fiji by +6 but this could equally be England by +6.

    I have South Africans over on Sunday to watch the game, so I hope your prediction for that game is wrong :smile:
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=spitting+image+south+african+song&docid=603490849848571169&mid=4EFE2080EB16B39E21534EFE2080EB16B39E2153&view=detail&FORM=VRAASM&ru=/videos/search?q=spitting+image+never+met+a+nice+south+african&qs=RI&form=QBVLPG&sp=7&lq=0&pq=never+met+a+nice+south+african&sk=MM2MT2UT1RI1&sc=10-30&cvid=E5CD3925F3BD4369B909796A0EA7444E
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    edited October 2023
    maxh said:

    1,500 Palestinians dead.
    1,200 Israelis dead.
    1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded.
    400,000 already displaced.
    6000 bombs dropped on Gaza.
    What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?

    Because the Israeli Minister of Homeland Security Ben Gvir declared it to be so?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:
    And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
    The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
    Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

    It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
    Short term I think I can see the Israeli tactic as being to create a buffer zone, like the Golan heights, to push any military activity far enough away from the Israeli border that they can't launch rockets or stage future incursions. Presumably the plan is to occupy Gaza city, not necessarily bother with the more rural bits to the South, and station a permanent military presence there. Frankly speaking I can't see any alternative strategy that would ensure security in the South.

    Yes I expect Gazans may see this as a precursor to settlers moving in. Hopefully not. Pretty risky business if you're one of those settlers too.

    If they do occupy half of Gaza then the question is do we see a flow of Gazans from North to South, to get out of the way of the occupiers, or a flow in the opposite direction if living conditions are better in the occupied zone.
    I’m thinking along the lines of a buffer zone too but I think it would make more sense from Israel’s perspective (regardless of the rights or wrongs) to level everything from the border to Wadi Gaza (the line they’re told everyone to move to) and make the levelled area uninhabitable so that there is a very clear “dead zone” they can keep an eye on so that surprise attacks in the future will be very very unlikely as they will have miles of clear space where any activity will be noticed immediately and can be acted on if necessary.

    It’s not nice but if it gives them the feeling of more security from this happening again then they will do it.
    I don't think that's going to happen. It would place them on a par with Assad (father and son).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Yes, people should be free to decide how secret they want their identity to be. At one end we have full transparency with OGH, or Nick Palmer. At the other end a number of posters who are completely anonymous. And in the middle quite a few (myself included) who don't use our full names but are fairly relaxed about our identities being found out.
    Oh, you're *that* Tim S.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Yes, people should be free to decide how secret they want their identity to be. At one end we have full transparency with OGH, or Nick Palmer. At the other end a number of posters who are completely anonymous. And in the middle quite a few (myself included) who don't use our full names but are fairly relaxed about our identities being found out.
    Oh, you're *that* Tim S.
    Disgraced former Arsenal striker Tim S, yes.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Bartholomew Roberts is not a human being and therefore cannot be doxxed
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Which video game are you playing this morning ?
    LOL people in glass houses...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Equally (more?) plausible scenario

    Israel invades and occupies at least part of Gaza. Establishes a permanent military presence. Hundreds of thousands are displaced, but the main fighting is over quite quickly and they return home.

    There are reprisal attacks in the West Bank and some isolated outbreaks in Western cities. The IDF face regular ambushes in Gaza. But the world's attention moves on. Perhaps there's a catastrophic flood somewhere, or a big change in the Ukraine war, or (quite feasible) a massive US bond market rout and yet another global recession.

    And another chapter in the sad ancestral story of the Arabs and Israelis draws to an unsatisfactory close.
    I’d say yours is more likely. But not massively so

    I reckon the chances of your scenario - basically same old same old - is about 30%. Chances of
    mine - major global escalation - more like 20%

    50% some mix of the two

    What worries me is that the 2020s feels like one of those cursed decades where everything surprises on the downside. The Wuhan flu turned out to be a global plague. Putin really DID invade Ukraine. Liz Truss

    The ancestral conflict in the Levant finally turning into a massive international war would be in keeping with the leitmotifs of the 2020s, so far
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    nico679 said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    I think it’s pretty clear there can be no peace in Israel and Palestine until Hamas are removed. Equally Netanyahu needs to go as he has put the interests of his own political survival above the needs of the country .

    The view from Israel right now is that they're glad to have Bibi in charge because despite the corruption he's still someone who will take action against Hamas regardless of international condemnation etc... Israelis don't want a wet in charge at a time like this.
    I doubt you’d see much difference in response regardless of who you had in charge . Many of those classed as moderates think the Hamas action has crossed a red line .

    Netanyahu is part of the problem not the solution in the longer term .
    Indeed his support of Hamas as a way to divide Palestinians and undermine any possibility of a Palestinian state is one of the most idiotic bits of politics in the modern age.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Isn't this the opening of Threads? 😬
  • Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    You have an absolute boner for World War Three
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,802
    TimS said:

    MaxPB said:

    nico679 said:

    I think it’s pretty clear there can be no peace in Israel and Palestine until Hamas are removed. Equally Netanyahu needs to go as he has put the interests of his own political survival above the needs of the country .

    The view from Israel right now is that they're glad to have Bibi in charge because despite the corruption he's still someone who will take action against Hamas regardless of international condemnation etc... Israelis don't want a wet in charge at a time like this.
    Actually the view from Israel seems pretty unforgiving towards Netanyahu for failing to prepare for or anticipate this, and one thing Labour leaders in Israel have not been historically is wet in how they support and fund the IDF and Mossad.
    I think that's the view going forwards, at least from speaking to my wife's family. In the here and now they know Bibi is unlikely to halt the campaign against Hamas when the IDF is striking civilian infrastructure and the civilians that Hamas has placed within these schools, hospitals and mosques they use as terrorist bases are killed by IDF strikes he will simply shrug and keep going. I'm not sure that other politicians are trusted to do so, at least from what they were saying last night when we finally got through.
  • TimS said:

    nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    Too early for conference bounce, I would wait until polls from early-mid next week onwards.
    I agree and now we have the war in the middle east and who knows what the political fallout may be

    We all talk about events but nobody could have predicted brexit, covid, war in Ukraine, the death of the Queen and now a terrible middle east war all in just 4 years since the last election
  • .

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    As I said the other day..."lessons will be learned" about sprinklers in car parks. Maybe I should set up my own fire safety consultancy?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,779
    TimS said:

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Yes, people should be free to decide how secret they want their identity to be. At one end we have full transparency with OGH, or Nick Palmer. At the other end a number of posters who are completely anonymous. And in the middle quite a few (myself included) who don't use our full names but are fairly relaxed about our identities being found out.
    I imagine one day I will run into a guy called Tim at an SE4 soiree and figure out who you are. If so we can drink a toast to PB.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Leon said:

    Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    Your Tischgespräche is plausible up to this bit. If the RF were capable of sweeping Ukraine they'd do it today.

    I also don't think that the US would directly engage the RF forces to save the Green T-Shirt Regime if it all went to fuck in Kiev. Other sources of fanciful conjecture are available. DYO-Wikipedia-R.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    ...

    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Is this the same World War 3 you predicted when Russia invaded Ukraine? Brace, brace!
    In case you hadn’t noticed, the Ukraine war is not over
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    That's like suggesting "an overheating chip pan on a gas hob started the fire that burned my house down, but do you know what? It would have been manageable had the house not been wired into mains electricity".
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    If we are doing car park design may I suggest a variety of payment options are provided.....
    Don't care about that. Just so long as it's exactly like the one in Thunderbirds.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    Grant Shapps making an idiot of himself on Radio 4. Excellent interview.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,986
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    Equally (more?) plausible scenario

    Israel invades and occupies at least part of Gaza. Establishes a permanent military presence. Hundreds of thousands are displaced, but the main fighting is over quite quickly and they return home.

    There are reprisal attacks in the West Bank and some isolated outbreaks in Western cities. The IDF face regular ambushes in Gaza. But the world's attention moves on. Perhaps there's a catastrophic flood somewhere, or a big change in the Ukraine war, or (quite feasible) a massive US bond market rout and yet another global recession.

    And another chapter in the sad ancestral story of the Arabs and Israelis draws to an unsatisfactory close.
    I’d say yours is more likely. But not massively so

    I reckon the chances of your scenario - basically same old same old - is about 30%. Chances of
    mine - major global escalation - more like 20%

    50% some mix of the two

    What worries me is that the 2020s feels like one of those cursed decades where everything surprises on the downside. The Wuhan flu turned out to be a global plague. Putin really DID invade Ukraine. Liz Truss

    The ancestral conflict in the Levant finally turning into a massive international war would be in keeping with the leitmotifs of the 2020s, so far
    It's been a decade of variety in its disasters though. More war would be a bit samey. And to be honest financial collapses have been a bit two a penny in recent years, as have climate related disasters. So what's missing so far? What pretty obvious event are the 2020s yet to be blessed with?

    The eruption of a supervolcano.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    TBF perhaps because no-one had mentioned it on here, and because I hadn't seen it on the news.

    Instead of being snarkey, it might have been good for you to provide a link such as this:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/what-caused-the-luton-airport-fire-b2429048.html
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    TimS said:

    nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    Too early for conference bounce, I would wait until polls from early-mid next week onwards.
    I agree and now we have the war in the middle east and who knows what the political fallout may be

    We all talk about events but nobody could have predicted brexit, covid, war in Ukraine, the death of the Queen and now a terrible middle east war all in just 4 years since the last election
    Err, both Brexit and the death of a 96 year old woman were not unexpected, just a matter of timing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    Ghedebrav said:

    Re kids on the Tube - it is still kind of confusing to know how to get through the gates for people who don’t have great English (E.g. tourists) or for people who aren’t used to using public transport (E.g. people from lots of the rest of the uk where public transport is either bobbins or non-existent).

    I'm all for different ways of doing things like Oystercard or contactless. But they are also more complex until you know the system, esp. compared to ticketed systems, which pretty much anyone who has used public transport worldwide knows. Buy a ticket, get on.

    Khan has mucked up TfL's finances, and he's trying to make anyone but Londoners pay.
    Take a step back. Kids travel free, even your 9-year-old from outside London. As a matter of interest, how much are child fares round your way? As an adult, you can use any contactless payment card or phone. The important point is always to use the same contactless card to benefit from daily fare capping and also free travel if you change buses quickly. You do have that where you live? Thought not.
    No; but then we are not blessed with the marvellous public transport system London has.

    But what you're talking about is more complex. Buying a ticket means the job is jobbed; if you don't know the arcane system in London then it's blooming confusing.

    I fear the problem is that people who live in London and use the system regularly are used to it. The problem occurs with us plebs who only go into London a few times a year.
    Possibly but Transport for London has an excellent website on which all is made clear.
    https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/5-10-zip-oyster-photocard
    https://tfl.gov.uk/

    If I were you, I'd get Oyster cards for your child and yourself. It will make your son feel more grown-up to have his own ticket; you can use the normal gates rather than having to look for the special ones at the side; if you drop your card, there is not the risk of a thief making off with your credit card or phone.
    Except AIUI you need to keep it topped up, meaning that TFL have all the money on it until you spend it. And you say their website is 'excellent'; I'd argue it isn't for occasional travellers such as ourselves.

    As I keep on saying: one day travelcards, especially when combined with rail tickets, are a totally hassle-free way of doing things.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    I'm relaxed about that poll - following the polls showing a Tory bounce after their conference, this suggests it's evened out. A lead of 19 will do nicely, if confirmed by other polls.
  • .

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    As I said the other day..."lessons will be learned" about sprinklers in car parks. Maybe I should set up my own fire safety consultancy?
    I think we should ban EVs. This fire proves how dangerous they are.
  • Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,572

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    That's like suggesting "an overheating chip pan on a gas hob started the fire that burned my house down, but do you know what? It would have been manageable had the house not been wired into mains electricity".
    The point is that EV fires burn hotter and longer, and are a devil to put out.

    As it happens, the real scandal is perhaps that the car park did not have a sprinkler system. I wouldn't expect one to put out a fire, but it would buy the fire brigade more time.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    World War 3 it is, then

    Who cares! Oyster cards!
    Pensioners need a cash option. It's a disgrace.......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Dura_Ace said:

    Leon said:

    Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    Your Tischgespräche is plausible up to this bit. If the RF were capable of sweeping Ukraine they'd do it today.

    I also don't think that the US would directly engage the RF forces to save the Green T-Shirt Regime if it all went to fuck in Kiev. Other sources of fanciful conjecture are available. DYO-Wikipedia-R.
    I wanted to keep it pithy. I agree Russia as things stand cannot sweep Ukraine. But how long will America keep funding Kyiv if it is ALSO desperately trying to aid Israel. There are many ways it could stop

    Without that aid Ukraine is fucked. Also, other nations might see this chaotic moment as a good time to help Russia. China? They want the west dethroned. Helping Putin win in Ukraine would really aid that. As Israel fights for its life

    Alternatively or additionally, China might see the coming 18 months as the ideal moment to take on Taiwan, as two mad old men fight for the White House

    Fancy a gin?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Interesting explanation of what went wrong in that Scottish rape trial which initially led to a community sentence then quashed conviction:

    https://thomasleonardross.wordpress.com/2023/10/12/the-case-of-sean-hogg-what-went-wrong/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.

    Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632

    .

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    As I said the other day..."lessons will be learned" about sprinklers in car parks. Maybe I should set up my own fire safety consultancy?
    Are car park sprinkler systems foam or purely water? Isn't there an issue with water for fuel fires?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145

    Leon said:

    Plausible scenario

    Israel invades Gaza. Unsurprisingly, a LOT of Gazans are killed - as it is quite difficult for 1.1m Gazans to move house in 24 hours

    Israel slogs on. Even more die. The West Bank erupts and Hezbollah attacks. Israel is now fighting on 3 fronts, one of them internal

    The west funnels aid to Israel. More Gazans die. Now major Arab nations “facilitate” attacks on Israel
    - Iran, Syria. Perhaps Jordan, even Saudi

    It looks like Israel could lose. America steps in. Europe is afire with deadly riots by Muslim populations. Iran attacks American interests. America attacks Iran. Russia takes advantage and sweeps Ukraine

    World War 3

    You have an absolute boner for World War Three
    Major Arab nations already facilitate terrorist activity against Israel, as they have been doing for many decades (since the 1940s, and well before that?).

    Remember that Hezbollah - far ore formidable than Hamas, is in many ways simply the terrorist wing of the Iranian armed forces.

    I think the situation in Western Europe, including here, is a concern.

    For example, a video of Palestine-supporting activists ripping down in memoriam posters put up by Jewish people in memory of children murdered by Hamas.
    https://twitter.com/StopAntisemites/status/1712527878774997234
  • TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    That's like suggesting "an overheating chip pan on a gas hob started the fire that burned my house down, but do you know what? It would have been manageable had the house not been wired into mains electricity".
    The point is that EV fires burn hotter and longer, and are a devil to put out.

    As it happens, the real scandal is perhaps that the car park did not have a sprinkler system. I wouldn't expect one to put out a fire, but it would buy the fire brigade more time.
    I must say on a political forum , I cannot be that bothered by this - its a fire , they happen ,always have no matter who is in charge
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    I'm relaxed about that poll - following the polls showing a Tory bounce after their conference, this suggests it's evened out. A lead of 19 will do nicely, if confirmed by other polls.
    Are you concerned with the reports from the focus group that said they preferred Sunak to Starmer but still planned to vote labour ? We know the labour lead is soft. What needs to be done to firm it up.

    This is the one in three seats Labour needs to win. It was mentioned here in the last few days.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,812
    maxh said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:
    And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
    The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case.
    Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.

    It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
    There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.

    Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,

    This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.

    Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
    Genuine, not loaded question.
    Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza?
    I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken.
    How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
    I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,632
    Carnyx said:

    Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.

    Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
    The way PB has been recent days probably the political speeches.
  • Carnyx said:

    Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.

    Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
    Leon denouncing booze and porn? We truly are at the end of times. Time to load up our campervan and head off grid.
  • maxh said:

    are you going to continue to imprison them and leave them to die at the hands of Hamas I don’t really understand how a civilian in Gaza can be both responsible for the Hamas government and yet imprisoned by them. This reads like doublethink to me.

    We'd be here all day so lets just skip to the last part. I was referring to the government of Egypt. Israel gets grief for Gaza being a prison - yet rarely a word against Egypt for doing the same.

    A wave of refugees is coming. Either they voluntarily head south as the IDF advises, or they flee when the IDF advances. They are coming. So what will Egypt do? Because the Rafah border crossing remains closed - there is no free transit out of Gaza into Egypt.

    My question was to Egypt. Will you say "Free Palestine" whilst continuing to imprison them? Will you blame Israel whilst pushing the fleeing civilians back into the hands of Hamas and the path of the invading army?

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    AND it’s raining
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376
    Scott_xP said:

    Is this the same World War 3 you predicted when Russia invaded Ukraine? Brace, brace!

    ///What.Three.Wars///
    Now that is a good retort :smiley:
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,376

    Taz said:

    @PBModerator please can you delete the doxxing post? It's been made explicitly clear that doxxing is against the rules.

    Want to have a healthy disagreement, fine, don't doxx.

    Agree, however no one should be in trouble over this. Leon is doxxed daily and there are no reprisals.
    Leon doxes himself.
    Which, if true, is his prerogative. Does not make it okay for others to if it is against the rules here.
  • TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    That's like suggesting "an overheating chip pan on a gas hob started the fire that burned my house down, but do you know what? It would have been manageable had the house not been wired into mains electricity".
    Maybe I am a bit slow this morning as not I am sure about your point but the longer term issue will be car park sprinklers and changing fire regulations accordingly, ironically as I originally highlighted was the result of the fire 1979 fire in Woolworths in Manchester which in 1988 changed the regulations on combustible material used in the manufacture of furniture
  • nico679 said:

    No conference bounce for Labour according to Techne .

    The same poll numbers from their last poll.

    Labour 45 Tories 26 .

    Domestic issues not taking centre stage and Sunak being able to channel the Great Wartime Leader routine might have some effect on the by-elections .

    Techne is the ying to Deltapoll's Yang; it's incredibly stable.

    I don't think any poll they've released all year has been beyond MoE away from of C27L45. Meanwhile pages are ripped from the calendar like a "time passed" sequence in an old movie.


  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,145

    TimS said:

    How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.

    I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
    There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.

    Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
    Good morning

    The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points

    He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers

    This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow

    https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2023-10-12/airport-defends-lack-of-sprinklers-but-vows-to-learn-lessons-from-fire
    If we are doing car park design may I suggest a variety of payment options are provided.....
    Twitter did car park design on the same day as the fire :smile:
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Scott_xP said:

    Is this the same World War 3 you predicted when Russia invaded Ukraine? Brace, brace!

    ///What.Three.Wars///
    Where exactly is ///World.War.Three/// ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,829

    Interesting explanation of what went wrong in that Scottish rape trial which initially led to a community sentence then quashed conviction:

    https://thomasleonardross.wordpress.com/2023/10/12/the-case-of-sean-hogg-what-went-wrong/

    THanks for that - interesting indeed.
This discussion has been closed.