And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.
The Max that said this? Formatting-willing, perhaps someone else said it but it appears he did.
"The tricky question for me is the impact on civilians. I’m sympathetic to the comparisons with Germany in WW2 - a regime needed annihilating and there was no way to avoid civilian deaths."
And I disagree with him on that. I do rarely agree with you on some things as well you know. In spite of what you might think the world is not black and white. It is a concept you might consider exploring rather than constantly harking back to historical irrelevances.
Whereas I often agree with you Richard and am uncertain of my views on this. What solution would you suggest that doesn’t involve civilian deaths?
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.
The Max that said this? Formatting-willing, perhaps someone else said it but it appears he did.
"The tricky question for me is the impact on civilians. I’m sympathetic to the comparisons with Germany in WW2 - a regime needed annihilating and there was no way to avoid civilian deaths."
And I disagree with him on that. I do rarely agree with you on some things as well you know. In spite of what you might think the world is not black and white. It is a concept you might consider exploring rather than constantly harking back to historical irrelevances.
Whereas I often agree with you Richard and am uncertain of my views on this. What solution would you suggest that doesn’t involve civilian deaths?
There isn't one, but Israel absolutely must take measures to reduce civilian casualties. Hamas won't make that easy because they literally trap Palestinian women and children within their terrorist camps and outposts and purposely use civilian infrastructure including active schools, hospitals and residential areas as bases. Knowing that casualty numbers will be high, yet there is no other way. It's not, as you characterise, revenge for the terror attack, instead a sad but necessary consequence of Hamas operating procedure.
There are reports that another Russian ship has suffered a smoking incident.
Although as all that can be seen is black smoke around it, it might just have started its engines...
The Russian fleet is being driven out of Sevastopol and the Crimea by drone technology and the longer distance missiles Ukraine now has. Just like tanks, we are seeing significantly expensive capital assets becoming liabilities as the nature of warfare changes before our eyes.
Ironically, Putin himself described the Royal Navy's shiny new aircraft carriers as missile magnets.
There are reports that another Russian ship has suffered a smoking incident.
Although as all that can be seen is black smoke around it, it might just have started its engines...
The Russian fleet is being driven out of Sevastopol and the Crimea by drone technology and the longer distance missiles Ukraine now has. Just like tanks, we are seeing significantly expensive capital assets becoming liabilities as the nature of warfare changes before our eyes.
In the 2020's small, fast and cheap beats big, slow and expensive.
Everything modern armies have: (planes, helicopters, tanks, ships) are now vulnerable to a modified jetski, a toy you can buy in a store, or a guy with a missile on his shoulder. The only thing that wins is artillery, whether shell- or missile-based, or mines. Weirdly, people are now seriously looking into and using battlefield lasers as drone-killers. Hey, the 21st century has arrived and it's seriously pissed.
In the present conflict in Israel, the use of drones is noticeable, as is the capture of live Israeli tank crew. Israeli tanks are some of the best in the business, heavily modified for urban warfare (which is why the Merkava tank has its engine in the front and the NamerAPC is so heavily armoured). If they can be overcome with a few irregular troops from Hamas, then that is an obvious problem.
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.
The moment Israel decides that any level of collateral damage is unacceptable is the moment Israel ceases to exist because Hamas already trap civilians on all of their terrorist outposts to ensure there is always collateral damage to civilians and civilian infrastructure.
In case you missed it my argument is not that there will be no collatoral damage. It has been with some on here (Bart especially) who claim that that Israel should drive the whole of Gaza into the sea and that there are no limits to acceptable civilian deaths as long as Hamas are destroyed.
As others have pointed out Bart is encouraging genocide as the answer to Israel's problems without realising that it is exactly that cycle of violence which has perpetuated this war for the last 75 years.
You really are the voice of reason on this issue, Richard. I'm too busy with work to post much at the moment, but I agree wholeheartedly with every post of yours that I've seen on these terrible events.
I'd go along with that - but I have to acknowledge that I cannot (and I suspect nether can Richard) come up with any particularly good solutions. And in any event, at this point Israel will do what it will do.
With the US trying to excercise a modicum of restraint and trying to ensure it does not spill over into a wider conflict.
Which must be the main worry now. The West Bank and the North of Israel/Hezbollah also getting involved and Israel having war on 3 fronts.
Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.
Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
@HYUFD absolutely did not praise the Nuremberg rallies per se. It was an argument about the benefits and virtues of religious faith. Actually quite a sensitive and philosophical debate for post lagershed PB
Someone praised humanism and @HYUFD rightly scoffed at it saying it lacked the mystique, theatre and majesty of great religion, and that even the Nuremberg rallies or tawdry modern Anglicanism were more compelling than the dreary rituals of humanism
So Herr Head of the Chief Office of Construction Speer gets five stars on PB, then. Not so much, the happy clappy wing of the C of E.
But it might have escaped notice that humanism, and quite a few religions, reject ritual as leading to error.
(And thanks for the reply - I was wondering.)
Yes and the whole point was without religious ritual the ritual of ultra nationalism becomes more attractive as an alternative
The sort most prevalent today in the right wing of the Tory Party, which also utterly refuses to abandon the theocratic elements of the UK state and demands high church ritual for the inauguration of the Head of State? Ok, if you say so.
I think Haley is value for the GOP nomination. It still requires a LOT to change before the primary season, but she feels the most credible challenger if Trump falters. DeSantis is a busted flush IMHO.
Pence more likely, Haley is the GOP Jeremy Hunt
Pence is 810 on bf to win election (230 for nominee).
1,500 Palestinians dead. 1,200 Israelis dead. 1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded. 400,000 already displaced. 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza. What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?
Civilian lives are equal. Always have been, always will be.
The problem for Gaza's civilians is that they elected psychopaths as their government and continue to support them and continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew.
Hamas have done things over the last week that are incomprehensible. And will be crushed as a result. Some of the innocent civilians will be as appalled as the rest of civilisation is - we need to get them out of harms way. Others celebrate.
So what do we do? Say "Free Palestine" where Palestine is a terror state run by elected genocidal psychopaths. Free it to do what? I want to save Palestine. We saved Germany and the free world by bombing it into submission and the nazi leaders into their graves. The same is coming for Gaza. Which is why the innocent civilians should head south.
Here then is the challenge for Egypt and the Arab world. A significant number of people are going to flee to the border, whether voluntarily now or running for their lives shortly. You say "Free Palestine". But are you going to continue to imprison them and leave them to die at the hands of Hamas?
Because that is the truth. The people who want to slaughter the citizens of Gaza are not the IDF. It is Hamas. And I am told to provide succour to psychopaths? No.
Thanks for a thoughtful answer even though it is clear from your posts that you feel passionately about this.
The problem for Gaza's civilians is that they elected psychopaths In 2007 or so, yes. And I can see that the nation/state of Gaza bears responsibility for this. I find it hard to ascribe responsibility for this situation to the current population of Gaza, especially given the median age and proportion of the country too young to have voted in 2007.
continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew. Whereas this statement indicates much more current responsibility for the extremism of Hamas amongst the population as a whole. I haven’t heard this claim before and can’t immediately verify it. Do you have a reliable source?
You say "Free Palestine" Sadly, it has been a good few years since I have been idealistic enough to sign up to pithy slogans. My view is basically that civilians are rarely to blame for the actions of their governments, and this is more true for Palestinians in Gaza than it is for Israelis because of the relative recency of elections. I can see the intractable problem Israel currently faces and don’t see another
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
There's another angle to this as well: Hamas's actions last weekend were straight out of ISIS's playbook. I'm not Jewish, but there's no way I'd feel safe living under Hamas control in the West Bank, or any territory they controlled, as I'm not Muslim. In fact, you're in trouble if you're a Shia Muslim (AIUI Hezbollah is mainly Sunni).
But if you're Christian, or gay, or female - then I'd much rather live in Israel than under any of these sh*ts.
Thanks both for the replies. I’m with Foxy on this - Hamas themselves deserve whatever revenge Israel can mete out.
The tricky question for me is the impact on civilians. I’m sympathetic to the comparisons with Germany in WW2 - a regime needed annihilating and there was no way to avoid civilian deaths. Turning that to Gaza I can quite imagine that Hamas are happy to use hospitals, schools etc as civilian shields.
Yet many on here seem to go further, identifying all Gazans with Hamas and holding them responsible.
If the line is ‘Israel needs to do this and there is no way to do so without killling innocents’, I can understand that, though am deeply uneasy. If the line is ‘Gazans are getting what is coming to them for electing Hamas back in 2007 or so’ I think that is blind, indiscriminate hatred that is morally equivalent to violent antisemitism
That, too, is a very thoughtful response.
Picking this paragraph for comment on such material in education curricula:
continue to educate their children in the just cause that is genocide against the Jew. Whereas this statement indicates much more current responsibility for the extremism of Hamas amongst the population as a whole. I haven’t heard this claim before and can’t immediately verify it. Do you have a reliable source?
Education systems including material demonising the Jew, defining the Jew as like various animals, the elimination of Israel aka "The Zionist Entity", and so on, have been parts of education curricula in some places in the Middle East for generations. There have been occasional reports in Western media going back to - to my memory - the 1980s; one of the reasons I have taken an interest in these is because I lived in BD7 for several years whilst at University back then.
One challenge is that such teaching can be based on elements of orthodox Islam, but so can more tolerant narratives.
Occasionally we have had scandals in this country when such material turns up in Mosques, Madrasas (using the term to indicate Islam-based outside school education classes - Muslim 'Sunday Schools') or Schools.
One route where this type of approach gained a foothold in the UK was Imams funded by countries such as Saudi Arabia being appointed to new and small UK Mosques established in the 1970s.
Like Pakistan. To summarise (and caricature) several decades of history, Pakistan went bust, the World Bank/IMF went all George Osborne on its arse, the school system collapsed and was rescued by Saudi-funded madrassas spreading radical Islam.
That column reminds me of a quote in Asimov about a report from a bureaucrat where the content exactly evened itself out, creating a total value of exactly zero.
I remember it (the Asimov passage)! It's from one of the Foundations, can't remember which: I think the first book.
I think the character was also asked about an archeological question, to which the reply was along the lines of "Well person X says this, but person Y says that". Asimov's in-universe stand-in is excoriating about this approach, which is why I can't use it without wincing...
Yes, the point was that this person considered themselves an archaeologist because he was very knowledgeable about the opinions of others. The idea that he might go and look himself and form a view that way made him incredulous.
I personally think of that part when reading scientific or medical papers which cite large numbers of other papers which had utterly banal conclusions to add "weight" to their own work.
TBF there is one field where one *has* to go back to Linnaeus 1758 (etc, depending on the organism) - biological taxonomy, where one had to pay attention to previous authors dealing with the species (genus, etc.) name and/or organism. But that makes sense, for reasons of nomenclatorial stability, and is an exception to your general principle.
I think Haley is value for the GOP nomination. It still requires a LOT to change before the primary season, but she feels the most credible challenger if Trump falters. DeSantis is a busted flush IMHO.
Pence more likely, Haley is the GOP Jeremy Hunt
Pence is 810 on bf to win election (230 for nominee).
Nikki Haley is 25 on bf to win election. My money is on her (and Michelle). Both outsiders but value in my opinion.
1,500 Palestinians dead. 1,200 Israelis dead. 1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded. 400,000 already displaced. 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza. What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?
Perhaps it's because Hamas attacked Israel and murdered innocent people and cut babies throats...you don't expect Israel to stand by do you. You wouldn't if it was your own child.
100% I would be all for a murderous rampage.
But then I also would be if I was a Gazan Dad who has never supported Hamas and yet a bomb drops on my baby.
So I don’t feel that is an answer, other than blind revenge. Which I have sympathy with but don’t think will improve the situation for either side.
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
I think the short answer is that evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them.
Indeed. But that doesn't apply to the vast majority of people who are now dying in Gaza. So Max's question still stands.
The moment Israel decides that any level of collateral damage is unacceptable is the moment Israel ceases to exist because Hamas already trap civilians on all of their terrorist outposts to ensure there is always collateral damage to civilians and civilian infrastructure.
In case you missed it my argument is not that there will be no collatoral damage. It has been with some on here (Bart especially) who claim that that Israel should drive the whole of Gaza into the sea and that there are no limits to acceptable civilian deaths as long as Hamas are destroyed.
As others have pointed out Bart is encouraging genocide as the answer to Israel's problems without realising that it is exactly that cycle of violence which has perpetuated this war for the last 75 years.
You really are the voice of reason on this issue, Richard. I'm too busy with work to post much at the moment, but I agree wholeheartedly with every post of yours that I've seen on these terrible events.
I'd go along with that - but I have to acknowledge that I cannot (and I suspect nether can Richard) come up with any particularly good solutions. And in any event, at this point Israel will do what it will do.
With the US trying to excercise a modicum of restraint and trying to ensure it does not spill over into a wider conflict.
Which must be the main worry now. The West Bank and the North of Israel/Hezbollah also getting involved and Israel having war on 3 fronts.
Well yes. That is the purpose of the US having a carrier fleet in the region.
So far the attacks from Lebanon have not really been on a greater scale than the exchange of artillery and rockets that has been going on for years. Israel likely expects and can deal with that. Biden is trying to deter other states from joining the conflict.
I tend to steer clear of Middle East debates. But just listened to Ehud Barak on Hard Talk. Sounded to me like a voice of reason (Hamas must be defanged, but international law and norms respected, short term occupation of Gaza - and ideally handed over to coalition of Arab states for the medium term) and, dare I say it, optimism (long term two state solution, with a demilitarised Palestinian state).
But, as it sounds like the best route out of this horrible situation. It probably won’t happen.
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
1,500 Palestinians dead. 1,200 Israelis dead. 1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded. 400,000 already displaced. 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza. What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?
Perhaps it's because Hamas attacked Israel and murdered innocent people and cut babies throats...you don't expect Israel to stand by do you. You wouldn't if it was your own child.
100% I would be all for a murderous rampage.
But then I also would be if I was a Gazan Dad who has never supported Hamas and yet a bomb drops on my baby.
So I don’t feel that is an answer, other than blind revenge. Which I have sympathy with but don’t think will improve the situation for either side.
It's probably true to say that both Hamas and Netenyahu (who has encouraged them in the past) both expected, and to some extent desired this cycle of revenge. Hamas because it keeps them in power - and also because they're just into killing - Netenyahu because he thought (correctly indeed) that it would doom any prospect of a two state solution.
Both seem to have miscalculated how far the other would go, and the consequences of that.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
There's something about Task and Purpose that sets my b/s sensor going. I don't know what it is, and I might be being unfair, but he doesn't feel quite legit to me.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
He has been an incredible champion for his people and his country but there is no doubt that this is Zelenskyy's biggest challenge to date. How does he keep the coalition of support he has built focused on his war? It is not going to be easy.
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
@isam has been talking about point 3 for a long time and been dismissed by many on here, yet he was and you are right. Look at the shitfest that was Paris last night. I think we are coming to the point where some Muslims in the west are acting as a fifth column and many are either naturalised citizens or citizens by birth. Deportation isn't an option for a British citizen born in Bradford.
1,500 Palestinians dead. 1,200 Israelis dead. 1.1 million Palestinians forcibly displaced if Israel’s warning is heeded. 400,000 already displaced. 6000 bombs dropped on Gaza. What is it about the current situation that makes a civilian Israeli life worth more than a civilian Palestinian one to justify such numbers?
Perhaps it's because Hamas attacked Israel and murdered innocent people and cut babies throats...you don't expect Israel to stand by do you. You wouldn't if it was your own child.
100% I would be all for a murderous rampage.
But then I also would be if I was a Gazan Dad who has never supported Hamas and yet a bomb drops on my baby.
So I don’t feel that is an answer, other than blind revenge. Which I have sympathy with but don’t think will improve the situation for either side.
It's probably true to say that both Hamas and Netenyahu (who has encouraged them in the past) both expected, and to some extent desired this cycle of revenge. Hamas because it keeps them in power - and also because they're just into killing - Netenyahu because he thought (correctly indeed) that it would doom any prospect of a two state solution.
Both seem to have miscalculated how far the other would go, and the consequences of that.
And lest we forget, the Netenyahu approach to democracy is distinctive. It's not that long ago he was planning a hefty power grab from the judiciary.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
He has been an incredible champion for his people and his country but there is no doubt that this is Zelenskyy's biggest challenge to date. How does he keep the coalition of support he has built focused on his war? It is not going to be easy.
He's making a valiant attempt at linking Israel to Ukraine.
I remain surprised that the US hasn't done the same - a new axis of evil. Iran and Russia.
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.
Obviously we wouldn't but look at how antisemitism is being tolerated all over the west because no one wants to confront their homegrown militant Muslim population. Props to Macron for calling them out, I wish our PM had even 10% of the backbone to also call out these thugs threatening British Jews with violence and put and end to their campaigns.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
There's something about Task and Purpose that sets my b/s sensor going. I don't know what it is, and I might be being unfair, but he doesn't feel quite legit to me.
Yes. And No. He (and like every influencer, there's far more than just one, but I'll use the singular) is a bit more "keen amateur" than "professional", and there is a price for rapid response. But I'll take an enthusiast trying to communicate over professionals with an ax to grind. Happy to be contradicted if wrong.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.
Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.
Anyhoo, you are presumably aware of my (over) reliance on YouTube videos, and the military experts therein are now respositioning to cover the conflict in Israel. One of the better ones is Task and Purpose, who can refocus fast. Their Israel coverage since the Hamas attack is below.
He has been an incredible champion for his people and his country but there is no doubt that this is Zelenskyy's biggest challenge to date. How does he keep the coalition of support he has built focused on his war? It is not going to be easy.
He's making a valiant attempt at linking Israel to Ukraine.
I remain surprised that the US hasn't done the same - a new axis of evil. Iran and Russia.
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.
Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.
Incompetence is nearly always more likely than conspiracy and you may be right. It may also be that Bibi saw this as an opportunity as well as a threat and chose not to hear the warnings.
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.
Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.
Incompetence is nearly always more likely than conspiracy and you may be right. It may also be that Bibi saw this as an opportunity as well as a threat and chose not to hear the warnings.
Yes, I wonder whether this is a factor too, Egypt said they gave America and Israel the warning two days in advance if a major terrorist attack being imminent but they were ignored.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
The day of jihad has started.
All unconfirmed at the moment.
I hope Sunak has CTSFO/special forces hovering near the Jewish community in London though.
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.
Obviously we wouldn't but look at how antisemitism is being tolerated all over the west because no one wants to confront their homegrown militant Muslim population. Props to Macron for calling them out, I wish our PM had even 10% of the backbone to also call out these thugs threatening British Jews with violence and put and end to their campaigns.
Not just the PM, the met, institutions, celebs on social media and many other politicians across the spectrum.
Looking in to next week Israel will have to up its game in the propaganda war.
This week the horror of Hamas attacks has dominated the press, next week will be all about the horrors of Gaza. Lots of suffering children pictures and dead bodies.
The usual crowd will shroud wave and express esratz empathy for Gazans while encouraging the Islamo-fascists to keep killing, but in doing so seek to move all the pressure to Israel.
The size of the butchers bill is probably too much for most people to take in, it's back to the old stalinist saying - one deaths a tragedy a million is a statistic.
The Israelis need to keep the media story small and personal maybe focus on individual hostages if they are to keep the narrative on their side
Obviously we wouldn't but look at how antisemitism is being tolerated all over the west because no one wants to confront their homegrown militant Muslim population. Props to Macron for calling them out, I wish our PM had even 10% of the backbone to also call out these thugs threatening British Jews with violence and put and end to their campaigns.
The unique element of antisemitism is that it is a racism that exists among the left and the right, across all different demographics and ethnicities. It allows it to tolerated in a way that real (and perceived) racism against for instance black individuals is now hyper-policed / called out by wider society.
BBC News - Knife attack at school in France....1 dead, 2 seriously injured.
Kicking off. Likesaid
Let just hold on a sec and wait for the facts...
Un assaillant armé d’un couteau a fait irruption dans le lycée Gambetta. Au cri d’ «Allah Akbar», il a poignardé un professeur dans des circonstances non déterminées. Plusieurs autres victimes seraient blessés.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
The day of jihad has started.
All unconfirmed at the moment.
I hope Sunak has CTSFO/special forces hovering near the Jewish community in London though.
As ever, when something like this happens, all the clowns and loons want to join in. "I want me some of that murderous publicity".
As to the orthodox community in London, I don't think they are depending on the police.
I attended one community meeting, where the police declared that the local Synagogue was being "insensitive" by privately prosecuting each and every racist attack.
the Imam from the mosque just round the corner told the police representative that he was talking bollocks - he asked what was the right percentage of racist scum to prosecute?
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
The day of jihad has started.
All unconfirmed at the moment.
I hope Sunak has CTSFO/special forces hovering near the Jewish community in London though.
It’s an absolute fucking disgrace that in 2023 citizens of this country should have to pull their children out of school, be in fear and need armed protection from another set of citizens of this country.
I’m sure I will get abuse but I cannot not say that if you live in a country, hate what it stands for, hate it’s freedoms, hate fellow citizens to the point of violence because of their heritage or religion and want to turn it into a completely different country alien to centuries of enlightenment then please please fuck off and live in a country where the laws, customs and attitudes exist that you wish for.
Let’s not all jump to conclusions just because some Arab-looking madman with a knife is killing teachers while shouting Allahu Akbar on the official Hamas “day of Jihad”
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Yes. And big time. Israel have an established MO to respond disproportionately (for punishment and deterrence) and here they are responding to something especially atrocious. It's going to be bad.
Wasn't 2023 the year Nostradamus (not Leondamus or even Rogerdamus) predicted The Great War in the middle East?
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
Let me ask you two questions. Again not loaded.
1. Do you think Israel should defend itself against Hamas so as to prevent what happened on Saturday from happening again?
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Yes. And big time. Israel have an established MO to respond disproportionately (for punishment and deterrence) and here they are responding to something especially atrocious. It's going to be bad.
Wasn't 2023 the year Nostradamus (not Leondamus or even Rogerdamus) predicted The Great War in the middle East?
Given he predicted just about every year was the Great War Im not getting too excited
Looking in to next week Israel will have to up its game in the propaganda war.
This week the horror of Hamas attacks has dominated the press, next week will be all about the horrors of Gaza. Lots of suffering children pictures and dead bodies.
The usual crowd will shroud wave and express esratz empathy for Gazans while encouraging the Islamo-fascists to keep killing, but in doing so seek to move all the pressure to Israel.
The size of the butchers bill is probably too much for most people to take in, it's back to the old stalinist saying - one deaths a tragedy a million is a statistic.
The Israelis need to keep the media story small and personal maybe focus on individual hostages if they are to keep the narrative on their side
One war crime is no excuse to commit another war crime, or I fear in this case probably another 10+ war crimes. It doesn't matter which side is committing them or the circumstances, there can be no justification for it.
Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.
Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
@HYUFD absolutely did not praise the Nuremberg rallies per se. It was an argument about the benefits and virtues of religious faith. Actually quite a sensitive and philosophical debate for post lagershed PB
Someone praised humanism and @HYUFD rightly scoffed at it saying it lacked the mystique, theatre and majesty of great religion, and that even the Nuremberg rallies or tawdry modern Anglicanism were more compelling than the dreary rituals of humanism
The Nazis were early in the whole politics as mass spectacle thing -
Which brings us back to the conception that evil people *must* be stupid, cowardly and can't have good artistic skills & taste.
Which in turn creates bizarre arguments that either evil people aren't evil, because they are artistic or clever, or that their didn't actually achieve X because they were evil.
There was a chap, quite prominent in the Balkan wars, Radovan Karadžić.
Poet, psychiatrist, politician war criminal. I recall having a bizarre discussion with some people who alternated between believing he was evil and that his poetry was crap/good. That he could be evil and his poetry good, was something that they couldn't encompass. For extra LOLs, none of us had read the poetry in question.
Yes, it’s a stupid argument. Bad people can obviously make good art. Wagner is the great example but there are thousands of others
The Woke idea that we should only enjoy art with the correct views made by correct people will be the death of art
Poetry is in a right old state for this reason
High culture and education do not, in themselves, improve peoples' behaviour. They enable bad people to be bad more effectively.
Let’s not all jump to conclusions just because some Arab-looking madman with a knife is killing teachers while shouting Allahu Akbar on the official Hamas “day of Jihad”
Could easily be a dispute over lunch money
If, as you suggest, WWIII is round the corner, I don't think there is anything wrong with being a bit cautious.
A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
Let me ask you two questions. Again not loaded.
1. Do you think Israel should defend itself against Hamas so as to prevent what happened on Saturday from happening again?
2. If so, how?
It's noticeable that the only answer to maxh's question so far has been that "evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them", which is absolutely nonsensical, given that the question was about civilians in Gaza.
Would it be any easier to answer another question - are you horrified by the casualties among civilians in Gaza?
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said. Guardian.
How come we're not talking about the car that caught fire in Luton any more? For some reason that whole discussion suddenly went dead. Weird.
I'm quite relieved it was a short lived story as I'm flying out from Luton airport tomorrow morning.
There was some idle speculation it was started by an electric car; electric cars were surely involved in the full blaze.
Of course, a tank full of 60 or 70 litres of petrol is hardly a zero fire-risk but I do wonder whether the fire risks from lithium batteries is being fully recognised yet.
Good morning
The fire chief stated the fire started with a diesel suv which quickly spread and involved evs and charging points
He went on to say the car park had no sprinklers
This fire will be subject to a review and recommendations including mandatory sprinkler systems is likely to follow
A brand new car park having no sprinkler systems - nor seemingly any requirement to install them - is bonkers. That’s now two massive car park fires in five years.
Presumably sprinklers are only required for underground parking, or where there’s a building on top of the car park, and a standalone outdoor structure is a weird exemption?
As was linked here the other day, there was some research done into car fires on ferries, where proper deluge systems (several dozen gallons a minute) are compulsory.
Not only their intention, it is their purpose in life.....all the nonsense about the terrorist attack getting out of hand is just that, nonsense.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
2 years of planning and Mossad didn't know it was coming? Something really does not compute here.
Lets say this 2 year claim is part of some propaganda and even the planning documents recovered from the terrorists were deliberately back-dated (to try and reinforce this narrative)...the documents had detailed information about timings of operations in the Kibbutz, the security arrangements, what each individual should be doing at different times of the operation.
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
I am really not one for conspiracy theories. But, supposedly the best intelligence service in the world didn't get wind something on this scale was being planned, didn't know about the training to use hang gliders etc that was undoubtedly given, didn't appreciate that the security of the Kibbutz was being so completely compromised, wasn't aware of the collection of literally thousands of rockets and drones in territory they watch like a hawk, etc, etc. It just seems unbelievable to me.
Incompetence? The Israeli government has been in a mess recently. Wouldn't be surprised if there are some very angry junior intelligence officers who saw this coming and were ignored.
Incompetence is nearly always more likely than conspiracy and you may be right. It may also be that Bibi saw this as an opportunity as well as a threat and chose not to hear the warnings.
Turning it into an opportunity ex post is one thing. Letting it happen quite another. Same trap that 9/11 conspiracy theorists fell into.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said. Guardian.
The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Yes. And big time. Israel have an established MO to respond disproportionately (for punishment and deterrence) and here they are responding to something especially atrocious. It's going to be bad.
Wasn't 2023 the year Nostradamus (not Leondamus or even Rogerdamus) predicted The Great War in the middle East?
Given he predicted just about every year was the Great War Im not getting too excited
Neither should you. With tractor supplies at an all time high I'd expect Ludlow to be declared a demilitarized zone
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
Let me ask you two questions. Again not loaded.
1. Do you think Israel should defend itself against Hamas so as to prevent what happened on Saturday from happening again?
2. If so, how?
It's noticeable that the only answer to maxh's question so far has been that "evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them", which is absolutely nonsensical, given that the question was about civilians in Gaza.
Would it be any easier to answer another question - are you horrified by the casualties among civilians in Gaza?
Well Hamas' former deputy did say that the kidnaps and other atrocities were done by civilians who followed Hamas into Israel, so maybe they are not so innocent after all.
Have to say that last night's thread was an absolute classic: HYUFD extolling the relative merits of the Nuremburg Rallies and then Leon proclaiming him a 'genius' before denouncing booze and porn.
Oh? What was so great about the rallies? The catering? The visual design?
@HYUFD absolutely did not praise the Nuremberg rallies per se. It was an argument about the benefits and virtues of religious faith. Actually quite a sensitive and philosophical debate for post lagershed PB
Someone praised humanism and @HYUFD rightly scoffed at it saying it lacked the mystique, theatre and majesty of great religion, and that even the Nuremberg rallies or tawdry modern Anglicanism were more compelling than the dreary rituals of humanism
So Herr Head of the Chief Office of Construction Speer gets five stars on PB, then. Not so much, the happy clappy wing of the C of E.
But it might have escaped notice that humanism, and quite a few religions, reject ritual as leading to error.
(And thanks for the reply - I was wondering.)
Yes and the whole point was without religious ritual the ritual of ultra nationalism becomes more attractive as an alternative
The sort most prevalent today in the right wing of the Tory Party, which also utterly refuses to abandon the theocratic elements of the UK state and demands high church ritual for the inauguration of the Head of State? Ok, if you say so.
Actually not so true anymore, especially given the Bishops frequent votes against government policy on asylum etc. Though I myself strongly back the established church and Parish system.
However yes if you don't have mystique and high ceremonial religion people will seek other outlets for their passions.
And of course the most extreme religion today is non established ultra evangelical Christianity and non established militant Islam, the established C of E is hardly going around fermenting terrorism is it!
As we're all now agreed that Muslim extremists in the Middle East need annihilating whatever the cost, doesn't this prove, after all these years, that Tony Blair was right, right and right again?
I think Haley is value for the GOP nomination. It still requires a LOT to change before the primary season, but she feels the most credible challenger if Trump falters. DeSantis is a busted flush IMHO.
Pence more likely, Haley is the GOP Jeremy Hunt
Pence is 810 on bf to win election (230 for nominee).
Nikki Haley is 25 on bf to win election. My money is on her (and Michelle). Both outsiders but value in my opinion.
Pence is more likely to win Iowa with evangelicals than Haley, indeed Christie is a better bet in NH, she might have a shot in SC but the Florida is DeSantis' turf
Hamas did this attack knowing full well that Israel would have to respond. In fact, I would not be surprised if they did it *knowing* Israel *would* respond.
Hamas were either being really clever (derailing Israeli diplomacy with the Arab world, goading Israel into over reacting) or really stupid and it got out of hand with its fighters getting out of control. Either way, Hamas are fecked. No country on earth is going to let that kidnap, rape, torture and murdering of babies go unpunished. The hostage taking makes it all the more sketchy.
Without ascribing too much logical thinking to Hamas, I think the terror was deliberate as was the posting of videos but there were really three different audiences here.
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
Interesting. #3 is not right. There is no way Hamas thought the West would say "leave us to it". (Not The South, but the West and actually as we have seen, India was one of the first to come out with support for Israel). But I think your post remains valid with #1 and #2.
Obviously we wouldn't but look at how antisemitism is being tolerated all over the west because no one wants to confront their homegrown militant Muslim population. Props to Macron for calling them out, I wish our PM had even 10% of the backbone to also call out these thugs threatening British Jews with violence and put and end to their campaigns.
Not just the PM, the met, institutions, celebs on social media and many other politicians across the spectrum.
Back in 1989, far too many took the view about Salman Rushdie, that you can't criticise a major religion and not expect retaliation. That informs a lot of rections.
A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"
I think Haley is value for the GOP nomination. It still requires a LOT to change before the primary season, but she feels the most credible challenger if Trump falters. DeSantis is a busted flush IMHO.
Pence more likely, Haley is the GOP Jeremy Hunt
If we're doing ridiculous comparisons like that one, then Pence is the GOP Rees Mogg. Only more boring.
And Rees Mogg has more chance of being next Conservative leader than Hunt too, consider who the membership will elect, assuming they hold their seats
As we're all now agreed that Muslim extremists in the Middle East need annihilating whatever the cost, doesn't this prove, after all these years, that Tony Blair was right, right and right again?
Right about diagnosing the problem wrong about the cure, as history has shown.
A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"
If only that was true....he is just one example of many who lets say at most generous tolerate antisemitism, or see it as different racism e.g. Jezza is blind to this, a proud "anti-racist", but then can't see all the antisemites around him. In his mind it isn't really antisemitism, its standing up against oppression by Israel.
Also the fact, nobody really blinked an eyelid at this. You literally called a victim of antisemitism a liar on national radio. Can you imagine a BBC presenter getting away after being presented with video evidence of a racist attack, saying well yeah, but no, but yeah, they were probably asking for it....on wait I can, again it was Jewish school kids, who came under attack on a bus in London. Smeared as saying something Islamophobic, when they were actually screaming for help.
Where as let compare, Lawrence Fox acts like an attention seeking twat, we have to shut down a tv network etc etc etc.
Well De Valera did sign the condolence book for Hitler, albeit Varadkar does at least seem to say the Israelis were entitled to defend themselves, just the response disproportionate
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said. Guardian.
The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual
I'd hesitate to ascribe anything to Hamas's pitiful "global day of jihad" without firm evidence.
And when (if) those 1.1 million have left and Israel has occupied Gaza City, will it withdraw and let them go back?
The Palestinians won't believe so, as since 1948 that's not tended to be the case. Which is of course one of the reasons why 'Egypt should just take them all' isn't likely to be an easy solution.
It might seem odd to us to be so passionately attached to somewhere like Gaza, but many are.
There won't be anything much left in Gaza to be attached to. Hamas are not these poor downtrodden innocents imprisoned by the beastly Jew (ssshhhhh don't mention Egypt). The are genocidal terrorist psychopaths.
Like ISIS before them they need to be eradicated. That means killing most of them. Because they aren't going to just give up or reform - like Jake and Ellwood they are on a Mission from God. They have no interest in the innocents in Gaza other than using them as human shields. And as for Egypt and the rest - they have no interest in the civilians either. They are political pawns left to suffer *by them* for regional points scoring.,
This has to end. The status quo can't be sustained, there is no viable status quo ante to wind the clock back to. We need a long-term solution for the diaspora issue and with respect to Egypt and Jordan and Syria their mission of leaving people in multi-generational refugee camps as Someone Else's Problem is also over.
Israel has demonstrated in recent years that it wants diplomatic solutions. Reaching out to make all kinds of previously unlikely alliances. But if diplomacy doesn't work, it will impose a settlement militarily. And as wounded as it is, and as armed as it is, woe betide any of the powers around it who think they still get to disrupt this.
Genuine, not loaded question. Why is your and others’ entirely appropriate horror at the actions of Hamas not matched by a horror of indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians in Gaza? I can think of a few reasons, and am trying to understand whether my moral equivalence between a civilian Palestinian death and a civilian Israeli one is mistaken. How do you justify this to yourself? (Again, this sounds loaded, it isn’t).
Let me ask you two questions. Again not loaded.
1. Do you think Israel should defend itself against Hamas so as to prevent what happened on Saturday from happening again?
2. If so, how?
It's noticeable that the only answer to maxh's question so far has been that "evil bastards who behead babies in their cribs deserve everything that is coming to them", which is absolutely nonsensical, given that the question was about civilians in Gaza.
Would it be any easier to answer another question - are you horrified by the casualties among civilians in Gaza?
Well Hamas' former deputy did say that the kidnaps and other atrocities were done by civilians who followed Hamas into Israel, so maybe they are not so innocent after all.
Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.
The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing
Every single displaced person in Gaza should find and shoot their local Hamas terrorist buddy. There was a fragile peace, Hamas has brought death and destruction to the lives of ordinary people in Israel and Gaza. The deaths, displacements and destruction is all on Hamas. Israel has a right to defend itself and to ensure that Hamas is utterly destroyed and unable to launch another terrorist attack ever again.
My wife's family in Israel were very lucky to not have been effected directly but they know many families who lost loved ones and a few who have people missing, presumed kidnapped. There is a lot of anger at both Hamas and Mosad from what they say, how was such an extensive and devastating terrorist attack able to be carried out without any intelligence picking it up.
Once this is over there's going to be a lot of questions that need answers.
Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.
The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing
But the Irish lead the way
There was a particular awful comment from a Scottish Green MSP.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said. Guardian.
The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual
I'd hesitate to ascribe anything to Hamas's pitiful "global day of jihad" without firm evidence.
Probably doesn’t feel that “pitiful” to the family of the dead French teacher
A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"
Also "How do you get a column in the Guardian? Sleep with the editor..."
Looking in to next week Israel will have to up its game in the propaganda war.
This week the horror of Hamas attacks has dominated the press, next week will be all about the horrors of Gaza. Lots of suffering children pictures and dead bodies.
The usual crowd will shroud wave and express esratz empathy for Gazans while encouraging the Islamo-fascists to keep killing, but in doing so seek to move all the pressure to Israel.
The size of the butchers bill is probably too much for most people to take in, it's back to the old stalinist saying - one deaths a tragedy a million is a statistic.
The Israelis need to keep the media story small and personal maybe focus on individual hostages if they are to keep the narrative on their side
To do that they'd have to keep their Ambassador Tzipi Hotovely off our screens till his thing is over
A great example of the sort of tolerance of antisemitism among those who would never stand for racism against other minorities....
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
Chiles is not a great example of anything except the answer to "what is a numpty ?"
Chiles is a great radio presenter. We have discussed this.
Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.
The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing
But the Irish lead the way
Because we ruled Ireland and also ruled Palestine.
Foreign nationals who commit antisemitic acts or praise Hamas could be deported from Britain under plans being drawn up by the Home Office.
Immigration minister Robert Jenrick has asked officials in the department to look at how they could revoke visas on national security grounds for people who commit hate crimes or express support for the terror group.
It follows numerous examples in recent days of students and academics expressing support for terrorist attacks on Israel by Hamas, which is proscribed under British law.
The worst of this is: it’s only going to get worse
The invasion hasn’t even STARTED yet. Imagine what the mood will be after three weeks of Israel brutally fighting its way through Gaza, killing thousands
I predict we will see civil unrest in European cities
As we're all now agreed that Muslim extremists in the Middle East need annihilating whatever the cost, doesn't this prove, after all these years, that Tony Blair was right, right and right again?
Blair was certainly right, right, right in international affairs. Whether he was correct is a rather different question.
Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.
The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing
But the Irish lead the way
Sinn Fein and their supporters see themselves as "oppressed" like the Palestinians. Also, the old belief that the Jews killed Christ.
Allegedly an Israeli diplomat has just been stabbed in Beijing. There's a fairly graphic video of the fight, but no idea when it was filmed, or if it shows what is claimed...
A member of staff at the Israeli embassy in Beijing was assaulted on Friday, the Israel foreign ministry said in a statement. The person was in stable condition and is being treated in hospital, Reuters reports the statement said. Guardian.
The video is weird. The assailant seems to be western and quite old. Not the usual
I'd hesitate to ascribe anything to Hamas's pitiful "global day of jihad" without firm evidence.
Probably doesn’t feel that “pitiful” to the family of the dead French teacher
I didn't call the attack pitiful.
But it's hardly the first such attack in France, and trying to big up the propaganda of a vile terrorist organisation which has little reach outside of its region seems foolish to me.
Irish politics has not distinguished itself over this conflict.
The most virulent pro-Hamas western voices are so often Irish. It’s quite noticeable. A fair few Scot Nats and Welsh nutters too, so it’s a Celtic thing
But the Irish lead the way
Because we ruled Ireland and also ruled Palestine.
Comments
https://x.com/TheMossadIL/status/1712756327179575609?s=20
It is quite plain. Their intention is to destroy Israel
https://x.com/kyleworton/status/1712727135960400361?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
Everything modern armies have: (planes, helicopters, tanks, ships) are now vulnerable to a modified jetski, a toy you can buy in a store, or a guy with a missile on his shoulder. The only thing that wins is artillery, whether shell- or missile-based, or mines. Weirdly, people are now seriously looking into and using battlefield lasers as drone-killers. Hey, the 21st century has arrived and it's seriously pissed.
In the present conflict in Israel, the use of drones is noticeable, as is the capture of live Israeli tank crew. Israeli tanks are some of the best in the business, heavily modified for urban warfare (which is why the Merkava tank has its engine in the front and the Namer APC is so heavily armoured). If they can be overcome with a few irregular troops from Hamas, then that is an obvious problem.
Which must be the main worry now. The West Bank and the North of Israel/Hezbollah also getting involved and Israel having war on 3 fronts.
"Planned for 2 years", which is backed up by what Mr Bellingcat posted yesterday about recovered planning documents.
"The Israelis love life... the thing any (sic) Palestinian desires most is martyrdom."
But then I also would be if I was a Gazan Dad who has never supported Hamas and yet a bomb drops on my baby.
So I don’t feel that is an answer, other than blind revenge. Which I have sympathy with but don’t think will improve the situation for either side.
So far the attacks from Lebanon have not really been on a greater scale than the exchange of artillery and rockets that has been going on for years. Israel likely expects and can deal with that.
Biden is trying to deter other states from joining the conflict.
But, as it sounds like the best route out of this horrible situation. It probably won’t happen.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001rdpv/hardtalk-ehud-barak-former-prime-minister-of-israel
The first is the Middle Eastern audience. Put bluntly, given what has happened and what still happens (including beheading of criminals in certain countries), what may seem horrific to us in some of the videos is not as horrific to many in the Middle East, especially when it is perpetrated against the Jewish population. I think Hamas knew exactly what they were doing and what the likely reaction would be amongst the local populations (i.e. in support). But what they were really showing was how, if the Arab nations put their minds to it, Israel was not invincible and the Jewish population can be wiped out.
The second involved the Israeli audiences. That is more straightforward to understand. It is essentially terror campaign, hoping many will leave and / or will persuade others not to come. After all, Hamas is aware of the strains in Israeli society, not least that the increasingly ultra-orthodox part of the population does not do military service. If you can frighten away the more secularist / less orthodox parts of the population, then weight of numbers will eventually tell.
The third was the West. There the message was "look at the barbarity we can cause when we put our minds to it. Best to leave us to it and not get involved. Sell Israel out." Hamas will also be aware that, particularly in Europe, there is concern over the rising Muslim populations in many countries and especially the numbers of young, potentially aggressive young men. Again, the intention here is to scare these countries into not doing anything and turn the other way.
Hamas because it keeps them in power - and also because they're just into killing - Netenyahu because he thought (correctly indeed) that it would doom any prospect of a two state solution.
Both seem to have miscalculated how far the other would go, and the consequences of that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiW6hhC6Bs (21mins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbSFJaFuWU0 (55mins)
"Why Israel was attacked" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xjmelFwJow (23 mins)
As ever, I haven't reviewed these and cannot speak for their content: DYOR
The way they overran the security fence system alone, required detailed knowledge and coordination.
This was carefully crafted over time.
There's always a David Low cartoon;
I remain surprised that the US hasn't done the same - a new axis of evil. Iran and Russia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67082047#:~:text=Israel was warned by Egypt,reporters of the alleged warning.
I hope Sunak has CTSFO/special forces hovering near the Jewish community in London though.
This week the horror of Hamas attacks has dominated the press, next week will be all about the horrors of Gaza. Lots of suffering children pictures and dead bodies.
The usual crowd will shroud wave and express esratz empathy for Gazans while encouraging the Islamo-fascists to keep killing, but in doing so seek to move all the pressure to Israel.
The size of the butchers bill is probably too much for most people to take in, it's back to the old stalinist saying - one deaths a tragedy a million is a statistic.
The Israelis need to keep the media story small and personal maybe focus on individual hostages if they are to keep the narrative on their side
https://x.com/le_figaro/status/1712770957935280567?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw
Dunno. What do you think?
As to the orthodox community in London, I don't think they are depending on the police.
I attended one community meeting, where the police declared that the local Synagogue was being "insensitive" by privately prosecuting each and every racist attack.
the Imam from the mosque just round the corner told the police representative that he was talking bollocks - he asked what was the right percentage of racist scum to prosecute?
I’m sure I will get abuse but I cannot not say that if you live in a country, hate what it stands for, hate it’s freedoms, hate fellow citizens to the point of violence because of their heritage or religion and want to turn it into a completely different country alien to centuries of enlightenment then please please fuck off and live in a country where the laws, customs and attitudes exist that you wish for.
Could easily be a dispute over lunch money
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/10/12/varadkar-accuses-israeli-government-of-breaching-international-law-in-gaza-siege/
1. Do you think Israel should defend itself against Hamas so as to prevent what happened on Saturday from happening again?
2. If so, how?
A few years ago, as part of a campaign to raise aware of rising antisemitism in Europe, a Jewish guy walked around Paris wearing the kippah with a hidden camera, not saying anything, just walking around different neighbourhoods and recording the reactions.
He was abused, spat on, threatened, etc etc etc.
Interviewed by Adrian Chiles on BBC, Chiles took him to task saying but weren't you asking for it, particularly going into certain neighbourhoods and doubted his claims that he did nothing more than walk around i.e. insinuating that he was provoking such reactions.
The guy released all 10hrs of footage, unedited.
Chiles was at it again yesterday on the radio stating in the form of a question had the American's told Israel they could just "do their worst" to the Palestinians.
This kind of stuff would never be tolerated against other minorities.
France gave him asylum. This is his response
We have to end this madness
Would it be any easier to answer another question - are you horrified by the casualties among civilians in Gaza?
Guardian.
Presumably sprinklers are only required for underground parking, or where there’s a building on top of the car park, and a standalone outdoor structure is a weird exemption?
As was linked here the other day, there was some research done into car fires on ferries, where proper deluge systems (several dozen gallons a minute) are compulsory.
https://x.com/skynews/status/1712765385936703519?s=61&t=s0ae0IFncdLS1Dc7J0P_TQ
However yes if you don't have mystique and high ceremonial religion people will seek other outlets for their passions.
And of course the most extreme religion today is non established ultra evangelical Christianity and non established militant Islam, the established C of E is hardly going around fermenting terrorism is it!
Also the fact, nobody really blinked an eyelid at this. You literally called a victim of antisemitism a liar on national radio. Can you imagine a BBC presenter getting away after being presented with video evidence of a racist attack, saying well yeah, but no, but yeah, they were probably asking for it....on wait I can, again it was Jewish school kids, who came under attack on a bus in London. Smeared as saying something Islamophobic, when they were actually screaming for help.
Where as let compare, Lawrence Fox acts like an attention seeking twat, we have to shut down a tv network etc etc etc.
But the Irish lead the way
That simple, I think.
Immigration minister Robert Jenrick has asked officials in the department to look at how they could revoke visas on national security grounds for people who commit hate crimes or express support for the terror group.
It follows numerous examples in recent days of students and academics expressing support for terrorist attacks on Israel by Hamas, which is proscribed under British law.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12626827/Foreign-students-academics-praise-Hamas-commit-anti-Semitic-acts-risk-expelled-Britain-Home-Office-plans-wake-Israel-attacks.html
The invasion hasn’t even STARTED yet. Imagine what the mood will be after three weeks of Israel brutally fighting its way through Gaza, killing thousands
I predict we will see civil unrest in European cities
But it's hardly the first such attack in France, and trying to big up the propaganda of a vile terrorist organisation which has little reach outside of its region seems foolish to me.