politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If there’s no referendum on the Osborne plan for an elected
Comments
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When did I ever say that coalitions are necessarily bad for UK shares? The current coalition has a superb economic record and enjoys the confidence of the market. That doesn't mean a feeble Miliband-led coalition would do so - quite the reverse.David_Evershed said:Under the current coalition the FTSE 100 has increased from just over 5000 to just under 6500. This is not evidence that UK coalitions are bad for UK shares.
In any case, the FTSE 100 is only very weakly correlated with the UK economy. Read my last comment again.0 -
UKIP's track record in local govt, in Cambridgeshire at least, has been constructive, not nihilist. They won't have any problems forming either formal or informal coalitions with anyone.Richard_Nabavi said:
I shall be betting on Labour for win 2020 in such a scenario, no matter how unpopular and disastrous they are. There is zero chance of a UKIP/Conservative agreement, not least because UKIP don't want one and indeed seem to have as their principal (perhaps only) objective damaging the Conservative Party. We could well be in for a decade or more of rule by an unpopular Labour government, and all the attendant damage that will do.Socrates said:If the Tories elect a leader that supports leaving the EU for an FTA, and cutting immigration, a UKIP-Tory alliance could easily be done, and they would destroy the left at the following election.
There is no love lost between the Tories and UKIP at the moment. The differences are exaggerated because Cameron and Farage can't stand each other. When the opposite is true (Clegg and Cameron like each other), we can all see stable coalition govt.0 -
Oh please, here we go again.Richard_Nabavi said:
I shall be betting on Labour for win 2020 in such a scenario, no matter how unpopular and disastrous they are. There is zero chance of a UKIP/Conservative agreement, not least because UKIP don't want one and indeed seem to have as their principal (perhaps only) objective damaging the Conservative Party. We could well be in for a decade or more of rule by an unpopular Labour government, and all the attendant damage that will do.Socrates said:If the Tories elect a leader that supports leaving the EU for an FTA, and cutting immigration, a UKIP-Tory alliance could easily be done, and they would destroy the left at the following election.
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I shall be looking at the position of Plaid Cymru (among others) on Wednesday.Pulpstar said:
We have the SNP-Green surge right now.Sunil_Prasannan said:
So, we have the Tories polling at a Major-esque %-age?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ashcroft is the Gold Standard.SouthamObserver said:A lot more discussion of the Ashcroft poll than of the earlier Populus one I see :-)
One must feel a bit sorry for Plaid Cymru - they seem to have gone nowhere unlike the other slumpers and surgers in this parliament.
Are they projected to lose or win a seat ?
I think their problem is that basically whereas Scotland is probably a semi-viable independent entity, Wales full well knows it could never ever survive on it's own.0 -
Wonder if Carswell and Cameron could do a deal - particularly if Farage fails again to win a seat...david_kendrick1 said:
UKIP's track record in local govt, in Cambridgeshire at least, has been constructive, not nihilist. They won't have any problems forming either formal or informal coalitions with anyone.Richard_Nabavi said:
I shall be betting on Labour for win 2020 in such a scenario, no matter how unpopular and disastrous they are. There is zero chance of a UKIP/Conservative agreement, not least because UKIP don't want one and indeed seem to have as their principal (perhaps only) objective damaging the Conservative Party. We could well be in for a decade or more of rule by an unpopular Labour government, and all the attendant damage that will do.Socrates said:If the Tories elect a leader that supports leaving the EU for an FTA, and cutting immigration, a UKIP-Tory alliance could easily be done, and they would destroy the left at the following election.
There is no love lost between the Tories and UKIP at the moment. The differences are exaggerated because Cameron and Farage can't stand each other. When the opposite is true (Clegg and Cameron like each other), we can all see stable coalition govt.
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A tricky task, Wales tends to get lumped in with the West Midlands so even looking at a large number of subsamples can give a distorted picture.antifrank said:
I shall be looking at the position of Plaid Cymru (among others) on Wednesday.Pulpstar said:
We have the SNP-Green surge right now.Sunil_Prasannan said:
So, we have the Tories polling at a Major-esque %-age?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ashcroft is the Gold Standard.SouthamObserver said:A lot more discussion of the Ashcroft poll than of the earlier Populus one I see :-)
One must feel a bit sorry for Plaid Cymru - they seem to have gone nowhere unlike the other slumpers and surgers in this parliament.
Are they projected to lose or win a seat ?
I think their problem is that basically whereas Scotland is probably a semi-viable independent entity, Wales full well knows it could never ever survive on it's own.0 -
The real revelation of Polls over the last few weeks is how the Labour position has transformed from a steady unmovable 35% to 38% to a very flaky 30% to 33%.
ExMPNP was very often telling us the settled nature of the doorsteps. Something has unsettled that calm, and the real question is how or can Labour steady the ship and return to the stability of mid 30s?
If they can they win. If they can't the only question is how badly will they do.0 -
There was someone else in attendance when Mitchell met those three.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594741/Shock-Jock-toppled-minister-But-DJ-turned-PR-mans-disastrous-strategy-police-Plebgate-wreaked-terrible-damage-union.html
A charmer.
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Possibly not, if it gets to the point where a coalition is possible. However, that wasn't my point - it's the stage before that, when they are competing for votes and therefore letting Labour win, that is the problem, especially given the Conservatives' tendency to disunity.david_kendrick1 said:UKIP's track record in local govt, in Cambridgeshire at least, has been constructive, not nihilist. They won't have any problems forming either formal or informal coalitions with anyone.
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I know it is. That's why I made the comment.The_Last_Boy_Scout said:Dadge - Wigan is already part of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority
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Lord A Poll LAB 311 CON 275 LD 34 Other 30 (UKPR)
EICIPM0 -
If you think UKIP would oppose working with a eurosceptic Conservative party that wants to leave the EU, then your views on UKIP have been seriously warped by your tribalism. You are so tribally close-minded that you can't seem to understand that UKIP wanting to maximise their own representation in parliament does not mean their "principal objective" is damaging the Tories.Richard_Nabavi said:
I shall be betting on Labour for win 2020 in such a scenario, no matter how unpopular and disastrous they are. There is zero chance of a UKIP/Conservative agreement, not least because UKIP don't want one and indeed seem to have as their principal (perhaps only) objective damaging the Conservative Party. We could well be in for a decade or more of rule by an unpopular Labour government, and all the attendant damage that will do.Socrates said:If the Tories elect a leader that supports leaving the EU for an FTA, and cutting immigration, a UKIP-Tory alliance could easily be done, and they would destroy the left at the following election.
It would be like me saying that the Tories principal objective seems to be splitting the right, seeing as they're constantly doing stuff that offends their own base. However, I'm objective enough to realise that that's an inadvertent result of Conservative mismanagement rather than deliberate effort. You seem to think that your view of what UKIP's strategy should be must be agreed by everybody, so anyone disagreeing must have different objectives. If you pulled your head out of Cameron's arse to actually discuss reasonably what UKIP people actually think, you'd realise that most of us care about policy more than party. It's your mentality that is killing the Tory party: assuming what the plebs think rather than stopping to actually listen to them.0 -
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It's varied between 2 and 4 for forty years, although they have managed to win 5 different seats over the period, but never all at the same time...antifrank said:
I shall be looking at the position of Plaid Cymru (among others) on Wednesday.Pulpstar said:
We have the SNP-Green surge right now.Sunil_Prasannan said:
So, we have the Tories polling at a Major-esque %-age?TheScreamingEagles said:
Ashcroft is the Gold Standard.SouthamObserver said:A lot more discussion of the Ashcroft poll than of the earlier Populus one I see :-)
One must feel a bit sorry for Plaid Cymru - they seem to have gone nowhere unlike the other slumpers and surgers in this parliament.
Are they projected to lose or win a seat ?
I think their problem is that basically whereas Scotland is probably a semi-viable independent entity, Wales full well knows it could never ever survive on it's own.0 -
Right now UKIP are probably taking votes more incremental votes off Labour than the Tories.Richard_Nabavi said:
Possibly not, if it gets to the point where a coalition is possible. However, that wasn't my point - it's the stage before that, when they are competing for votes and therefore letting Labour win, that is the problem, especially given the Conservatives' tendency to disunity.david_kendrick1 said:UKIP's track record in local govt, in Cambridgeshire at least, has been constructive, not nihilist. They won't have any problems forming either formal or informal coalitions with anyone.
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It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
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Except, there is only one way for that panic to manifest itself - which is getting Ed to step down as Leader. Anyone think Labour are prepared to bite that particular bullet?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Ashcroft @LordAshcroft
There should be a teeny weeny degree of measured panic developing in the Labour Party. If not there should be......
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The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
I am not tribal at all, and never have been in any respect. I don't support any teams or cheerlead for anyone. I simply want as good government as we can get, I am pleased that for the first time in a couple of decades we have a good government now, and I am frustrated that UKIP helping Ed Miliband become PM is a big threat to that. That is all.Socrates said:If you think UKIP would oppose working with a eurosceptic Conservative party that wants to leave the EU, then your views on UKIP have been seriously warped by your tribalism. You are so tribally close-minded that you can't seem to understand that UKIP wanting to maximise their own representation in parliament does not mean their "principal objective" is damaging the Tories.
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Right now UKIP are probably taking votes more incremental votes off Labour than the Tories.
Maybe. And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back.
I'm much less sure about labour.0 -
They'd better not.MarqueeMark said:
Except, there is only one way for that panic to manifest itself - which is getting Ed to step down as Leader. Anyone think Labour are prepared to bite that particular bullet?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Ashcroft @LordAshcroft
There should be a teeny weeny degree of measured panic developing in the Labour Party. If not there should be......0 -
They are lumbered with him. There is no mechanism. And if he defenestrated himself?MarqueeMark said:
Except, there is only one way for that panic to manifest itself - which is getting Ed to step down as Leader. Anyone think Labour are prepared to bite that particular bullet?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Ashcroft @LordAshcroft
There should be a teeny weeny degree of measured panic developing in the Labour Party. If not there should be......
Step forward "Ms T-shirt" Harman, as automatic replacement under the rules...0 -
UKIP aren't helping Ed Miliband become PM. They are taking votes from Labour. The Conservatives might even be able to win votes back from UKIP if they weren't so dishonest about issues like the EU.Richard_Nabavi said:
I am not tribal at all, and never have been in any respect. I don't support any teams or cheerlead for anyone. I simply want as good government as we can get, I am pleased that for the first time in a couple of decades we have a good government now, and I am frustrated that UKIP helping Ed Miliband become PM is a big threat to that. That is all.Socrates said:If you think UKIP would oppose working with a eurosceptic Conservative party that wants to leave the EU, then your views on UKIP have been seriously warped by your tribalism. You are so tribally close-minded that you can't seem to understand that UKIP wanting to maximise their own representation in parliament does not mean their "principal objective" is damaging the Tories.
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I'd be worrying about my Brent etc Labour penalty kick bets if that was the case ^_~RodCrosby said:
They are lumbered with him. There is no mechanism. And if he defenestrated himself?MarqueeMark said:
Except, there is only one way for that panic to manifest itself - which is getting Ed to step down as Leader. Anyone think Labour are prepared to bite that particular bullet?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Ashcroft @LordAshcroft
There should be a teeny weeny degree of measured panic developing in the Labour Party. If not there should be......
Step forward "Ms T-shirt" Harman, as automatic replacement under the rules...0 -
That may be true, and in the most optimistic scenario we may see a differential swing back which will end up with UKIP damaging Labour more than the Conservatives, relative to the current polling. We shall see.Socrates said:Right now UKIP are probably taking votes more incremental votes off Labour than the Tories.
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For all Ed's troubles he is probably more secure than Dave actually.0
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@Taffys
"And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back"
Really? Do tell, what can Cameron and his little clique do or say that would get people back?0 -
And the Nonce Finder General is off.Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
Where's Roger when the site needs him?0 -
UKIP are not the same as they were back in their bad old 'Millwall' days: "Everyone hates us, we don't care".Richard_Nabavi said:
Possibly not, if it gets to the point where a coalition is possible. However, that wasn't my point - it's the stage before that, when they are competing for votes and therefore letting Labour win, that is the problem, especially given the Conservatives' tendency to disunity.david_kendrick1 said:UKIP's track record in local govt, in Cambridgeshire at least, has been constructive, not nihilist. They won't have any problems forming either formal or informal coalitions with anyone.
We are far more positive party now. UKIP is gaining experience of working with other parties, and we respect voters for other parties. I've no idea where you get the idea that UKIP activists are trying to 'destroy' the Tory party.
Could a successful UKIP campaign let Labour win a few seats 'through the middle'? For sure. But it is not the intention, and it will be a far smaller number that tories fear.
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Sadiq Khan for Mayor backers may not want to head to Guido...0
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No inheritance tax on primary residence up to £2 million ?HurstLlama said:@Taffys
"And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back"
Really? Do tell, what can Cameron and his little clique do or say that would get people back?0 -
Meanwhile PODEMOS, started just eight months ago, have overtaken the big two parties in the polls in Spain:
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/New-Left-Wing-Party-Podemos-Over-takes-Major-Parties-in-Spain-20141102-0002.html
This assumption that big parties like Labour and the Tories are bound to be the big two is utterly without merit. If you ignore the issues the people care about then they can be surpassed - and suddenly. Labour are currently risking their own survival by doing nothing about immigration, and the Tories will be too if their proposals for EU migration turn out to be a damp squib.0 -
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
UKIP are sucking Labour votes in the south as they are seen as the better party to defeat the Tories. We forget that Labour voters are much more willing to vote tactically against the Tories than Tory voters against Labour.Socrates said:
UKIP aren't helping Ed Miliband become PM. They are taking votes from Labour. The Conservatives might even be able to win votes back from UKIP if they weren't so dishonest about issues like the EU.Richard_Nabavi said:
I am not tribal at all, and never have been in any respect. I don't support any teams or cheerlead for anyone. I simply want as good government as we can get, I am pleased that for the first time in a couple of decades we have a good government now, and I am frustrated that UKIP helping Ed Miliband become PM is a big threat to that. That is all.Socrates said:If you think UKIP would oppose working with a eurosceptic Conservative party that wants to leave the EU, then your views on UKIP have been seriously warped by your tribalism. You are so tribally close-minded that you can't seem to understand that UKIP wanting to maximise their own representation in parliament does not mean their "principal objective" is damaging the Tories.
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Sounds a bit like Syriza situation to me, who are also doing very well.Socrates said:Meanwhile PODEMOS, started just eight months ago, have overtaken the big two parties in the polls in Spain:
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/New-Left-Wing-Party-Podemos-Over-takes-Major-Parties-in-Spain-20141102-0002.html
This assumption that big parties like Labour and the Tories are bound to be the big two is utterly without merit. If you ignore the issues the people care about then they can be surpassed - and suddenly. Labour are currently risking their own survival by doing nothing about immigration, and the Tories will be too if their proposals for EU migration turn out to be a damp squib.0 -
Needs to be the right kind of witchsmeller for this gig. Someone who already knows how guilty these guilty men are...foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
Mansfield would leap at the chance, but he's too politically aligned.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
Someone who wheels out the tired rhetorical device of 'fairies, flat earth, father christmas' etc. to try and bolster their argument has loses all credibility, instantly.logical_song said:
It's not smearing someone to take into account their views on one subject when assessing their views on another.Luckyguy1983 said:
A) Only an utter ignoramus would dismiss someone's opinion based on another, totally unrelated opinion that they hold.JonnyJimmy said:
You know the author of that piece is a 9/11 "truther"?MikeK said:Oooh-ah! Revolt on the Right continues apace:
http://conservativewoman.co.uk/camerons-tories-are-no-different-to-labour/
Words that are balm to kippers.
I am a 9/11 'truther' -or to put it more accurately, of the two conspiracy theories that are used to explain the events of 9-11 (since it was by definition a conspiracy), I believe the version adhered to by our Government and broadcast media to be the less credible. Since it isn't a topic that is regularly discussed here, I don't discuss it. Happy to explain why, but alternatively do go on using thoughtless smears in a rather desperate attempt to discredit your political opponents.
Someone who believes in Fairies, on that the Earth is flat or that the CIA are behind 9/11 is bound to lose a bit of credibility.
Observe the difference. This lady who you and JimmyJonny think should be denied a platform for her (completely unrelated) opinions on the Tories and Labour, makes cogent and evidence based arguments in defence of her theory on 9-11 -he quoted them. Rather than reply with any conflicting evidence, you sloppily attempt to undermine what -her mental health? It's sad.
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I nominate @Socrates of this parish.TGOHF said:
Needs to be the right kind of witchsmeller for this gig. Someone who already knows how guilty these guilty men are...foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
Then you haven't been paying attention:david_kendrick1 said:I've no idea where you get the idea that UKIP activists are trying to 'destroy' the Tory party.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/25/Farage-will-destroy-tories
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Just throw away the key and dispense with any inquiry...TheWatcher said:
Mansfield would leap at the chance, but he's too politically aligned.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
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Was he texting Harman in her car?TGOHF said:Sadiq Khan for Mayor backers may not want to head to Guido...
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You know this is one of the big "If's" of electoral history, what if the LD hadn't got into a coalition?Socrates said:Meanwhile PODEMOS, started just eight months ago, have overtaken the big two parties in the polls in Spain:
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/New-Left-Wing-Party-Podemos-Over-takes-Major-Parties-in-Spain-20141102-0002.html
This assumption that big parties like Labour and the Tories are bound to be the big two is utterly without merit. If you ignore the issues the people care about then they can be surpassed - and suddenly. Labour are currently risking their own survival by doing nothing about immigration, and the Tories will be too if their proposals for EU migration turn out to be a damp squib.
No LD collapse, no UKIP.
Right now the LD would have been easily ahead in 1st place in the opinion polls and probably on a roll to win the 2015GE.
We would have faced PM Nick Clegg.0 -
It may be the best strategy to win back the Tory derived kippers with such bribes, while letting the CDE's stick with UKIP, as it is that strand that Labour need. Perhaps chuck them a bit of Laura Norder and deport some foreigners publically to win back a few.Pulpstar said:
No inheritance tax on primary residence up to £2 million ?HurstLlama said:@Taffys
"And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back"
Really? Do tell, what can Cameron and his little clique do or say that would get people back?0 -
They arePulpstar said:
Sounds a bit like Syriza situation to me, who are also doing very well.Socrates said:Meanwhile PODEMOS, started just eight months ago, have overtaken the big two parties in the polls in Spain:
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/New-Left-Wing-Party-Podemos-Over-takes-Major-Parties-in-Spain-20141102-0002.html
This assumption that big parties like Labour and the Tories are bound to be the big two is utterly without merit. If you ignore the issues the people care about then they can be surpassed - and suddenly. Labour are currently risking their own survival by doing nothing about immigration, and the Tories will be too if their proposals for EU migration turn out to be a damp squib.0 -
The experts told us about a year ago that if UKIP went beyond 15% they would start to take votes disproportionately from Labour. Seems like they were right.0
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Aren't you double counting there? UNS includes Scotland, and if you're assuming 15 SNP gains in Scotland, the figures for the rest of the country are slightly different.Socrates said:On that Ashcroft poll with UNS, Labour would be 15 short of a majority. If we say they lose another 15 in Scotland to the SNP, they'll be 30 short. The Lib Dems will be getting around 30 themselves, which means a Lib-Lab Coalition would have an incredibly unstable majority. A Lab-SNP, and adding PC wouldn't help. Looks like Lib-Lab-SNP would be needed.
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And yet he's not the one looking like a nutter. Go figure.Luckyguy1983 said:
Someone who wheels out the tired rhetorical device of 'fairies, flat earth, father christmas' etc. to try and bolster their argument has loses all credibility, instantly.logical_song said:
It's not smearing someone to take into account their views on one subject when assessing their views on another.Luckyguy1983 said:
A) Only an utter ignoramus would dismiss someone's opinion based on another, totally unrelated opinion that they hold.JonnyJimmy said:
You know the author of that piece is a 9/11 "truther"?MikeK said:Oooh-ah! Revolt on the Right continues apace:
http://conservativewoman.co.uk/camerons-tories-are-no-different-to-labour/
Words that are balm to kippers. I am a 9/11 'truther' -or to put it more accurately, of the two conspiracy theories that are used to explain the events of 9-11 (since it was by definition a conspiracy), I believe the version adhered to by our Government and broadcast media to be the less credible. Since it isn't a topic that is regularly discussed here, I don't discuss it. Happy to explain why, but alternatively do go on using thoughtless smears in a rather desperate attempt to discredit your political opponents.
Someone who believes in Fairies, on that the Earth is flat or that the CIA are behind 9/11 is bound to lose a bit of credibility.
What's your view on chemtrails?0 -
I think the destruction of the Tory party wouldn't be a bad thing.Richard_Nabavi said:
Then you haven't been paying attention:david_kendrick1 said:I've no idea where you get the idea that UKIP activists are trying to 'destroy' the Tory party.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/25/Farage-will-destroy-tories
Many people will never vote for a centre right wing party if they are called Tories.
If you dissolve it and made a new one with another name in it's place, it would be much more popular.0 -
*polite cough* please chaps (mainly chaps today I see), can you remember that polling shows % share of the vote, it does not actually predict numbers of seats accurately because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNIFORM NATIONAL SWING. The closest you can get is that if Labour and the Tories get the same percentage share, Labour will get more seats because of the distribution of votes and electors across constituencies.
Anyone who doubts what I am saying should remember GE 1983 and what happened to the SDP.0 -
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
That's a matter of opinion. Not sure what your hasty edit is about either. What's *your* view on 'chemtrails'?Anorak said:
And yet he's not the one looking like a nutter. Go figure.Luckyguy1983 said:
Someone who wheels out the tired rhetorical device of 'fairies, flat earth, father christmas' etc. to try and bolster their argument has loses all credibility, instantly.logical_song said:
It's not smearing someone to take into account their views on one subject when assessing their views on another.Luckyguy1983 said:
A) Only an utter ignoramus would dismiss someone's opinion based on another, totally unrelated opinion that they hold.JonnyJimmy said:
You know the author of that piece is a 9/11 "truther"?MikeK said:Oooh-ah! Revolt on the Right continues apace:
http://conservativewoman.co.uk/camerons-tories-are-no-different-to-labour/
Words that are balm to kippers. I am a 9/11 'truther' -or to put it more accurately, of the two conspiracy theories that are used to explain the events of 9-11 (since it was by definition a conspiracy), I believe the version adhered to by our Government and broadcast media to be the less credible. Since it isn't a topic that is regularly discussed here, I don't discuss it. Happy to explain why, but alternatively do go on using thoughtless smears in a rather desperate attempt to discredit your political opponents.
Someone who believes in Fairies, on that the Earth is flat or that the CIA are behind 9/11 is bound to lose a bit of credibility.
What's your view on chemtrails?0 -
Oh dear. Good for those of us betting on Tessa.TheWatcher said:
Was he texting Harman in her car?TGOHF said:Sadiq Khan for Mayor backers may not want to head to Guido...
0 -
No inheritance tax on primary residence up to £2 million
Money is one way. If Cameron can find a way to slash pull factors (no tax credits for new EU migrants?) he is in business.
I reckon most kippers aren;t really that worried about Europe, if what gets posted on here is anything to go by.
They are far more concerned about what goes on in Rotherham than they are about what goes on in Brussels.0 -
Well you have a point, the SNP is subtracting 2% from the Labour score nationally, so in E&W it should be 2% higher and then you subtract 15-25 seats to the SNP to get the correct score.NickPalmer said:
Aren't you double counting there? UNS includes Scotland, and if you're assuming 15 SNP gains in Scotland, the figures for the rest of the country are slightly different.Socrates said:On that Ashcroft poll with UNS, Labour would be 15 short of a majority. If we say they lose another 15 in Scotland to the SNP, they'll be 30 short. The Lib Dems will be getting around 30 themselves, which means a Lib-Lab Coalition would have an incredibly unstable majority. A Lab-SNP, and adding PC wouldn't help. Looks like Lib-Lab-SNP would be needed.
On UNS that should be around 320 seats minus 20 SNP gains that gives you 300 Labour seats.
0 -
Unfortunately you'd have to live though a decade and a half of Miliband and his ilk first. Having already lived though long periods of disastrous government in the sixties and seventies, not to mention the last government, I'm not keen to repeat the experiment on the off-chance that it might all come right in the end.Speedy said:I think the destruction of the Tory party wouldn't be a bad thing.
Many people will never vote for a centre right wing party if they are called Tories.
If you dissolve it and made a new one with another name in it's place, it would be much more popular.
0 -
You mean second.Pulpstar said:
I nominate @Socrates of this parish.TGOHF said:
Needs to be the right kind of witchsmeller for this gig. Someone who already knows how guilty these guilty men are...foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
I nominated him last week.0 -
I only added on an additional 15 losses on Scotland, when it could be up to 30 to account for that effect.NickPalmer said:
Aren't you double counting there? UNS includes Scotland, and if you're assuming 15 SNP gains in Scotland, the figures for the rest of the country are slightly different.Socrates said:On that Ashcroft poll with UNS, Labour would be 15 short of a majority. If we say they lose another 15 in Scotland to the SNP, they'll be 30 short. The Lib Dems will be getting around 30 themselves, which means a Lib-Lab Coalition would have an incredibly unstable majority. A Lab-SNP, and adding PC wouldn't help. Looks like Lib-Lab-SNP would be needed.
0 -
I've bet on them both, but Sadiq is a better result for me than Tessa.rottenborough said:
Oh dear. Good for those of us betting on Tessa.TheWatcher said:
Was he texting Harman in her car?TGOHF said:Sadiq Khan for Mayor backers may not want to head to Guido...
I think he's ok with this, still plenty of time to go till 2016.0 -
Nice to see you, MrsB. How many seats do you see the Lib Dems getting?0
-
Whenever Richard Nabavi adopts his "Concerned Father of the Nation" tone for the future if we don't all agree with him and vote for David Cameron, I cant help but imagine him addressing us in the style of these fellows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ-xSNTVOiw0 -
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
0 -
Maybe of interest to some here, especially if you work in Parliament. I've referred a few times to the Muslim organisation which I tried unsuccessfully to get Home Office funding to help some years back - they are a small offshoot of the larger Ahmadiyya movement, and very strongly pro-integration and anti-radical. They've got a meeting in Parliament on Wed Nov 19 from 930am-1130am, in the Commons Committee Room 6, to which anyone interested is welcome.. The invitation says:
'The Lahore Ahmadiyya community has been working for the propagation of Islam in the West for more than one century. It aims to show that Islam is a religion of reason, enlightenment, tolerance, moderation, and of living in peace and harmony with non-Muslims.
In 1913 our community established a Muslim mission at the Mosque in Woking, Surrey, and ran it for 55 years. During this period, this mission was the main centre of Islam in the U.K., supported by the general Muslim community, and visited by Muslim leaders from around the world.
We reject, refute and challenge the ideology of extremism, whether violent or non-violent, from an Islamic basis. Islam teaches Muslims to live in peace with all other communities and to respect their beliefs and traditions.
We oppose isolation and separatism of the Muslim community. Muslims must interact with the wider society, and explain their faith to others sympathetically. They must respond to criticism of Islam in a temperate, law-abiding manner. They must communicate and exchange ideas with others.
We strongly hold that Muslims in U.K. must abide by the law of the land and work for the betterment of all the people of this country.
We deplore the persecution of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries as being against Islam. We call for the so-called blasphemy law in Pakistan to be repealed.'0 -
Hasty edit? My MI5 handler insisted on it.Luckyguy1983 said:
That's a matter of opinion. Not sure what your hasty edit is about either. What's *your* view on 'chemtrails'?Anorak said:
And yet he's not the one looking like a nutter. Go figure.Luckyguy1983 said:
Someone who wheels out the tired rhetorical device of 'fairies, flat earth, father christmas' etc. to try and bolster their argument has loses all credibility, instantly.logical_song said:
It's not smearing someone to take into account their views on one subject when assessing their views on another.Luckyguy1983 said:
A) Only an utter ignoramus would dismiss someone's opinion based on another, totally unrelated opinion that they hold.JonnyJimmy said:
You know the author of that piece is a 9/11 "truther"?MikeK said:Oooh-ah! Revolt on the Right continues apace:
http://conservativewoman.co.uk/camerons-tories-are-no-different-to-labour/
Words that are balm to kippers. I am a 9/11 'truther' -or to put it more accurately, of the two conspiracy theories that are used to explain the events of 9-11 (since it was by definition a conspiracy), I believe the version adhered to by our Government and broadcast media to be the less credible. Since it isn't a topic that is regularly discussed here, I don't discuss it. Happy to explain why, but alternatively do go on using thoughtless smears in a rather desperate attempt to discredit your political opponents.
Someone who believes in Fairies, on that the Earth is flat or that the CIA are behind 9/11 is bound to lose a bit of credibility.
What's your view on chemtrails?
Since you ask, I think chemtrails are at the "X-Files" end of the conspiricy theory spectrum, i.e. 100% bullshit.
I've never understood why, when governments are tripped up by the most simple and trivial attempts at a cover-up or deception, some people still believe it's possible for the US authorities to murder several thousand people in (mostly) New York and Washington without any credible evidence or whistle-blowing coming to light. Bonkers.0 -
True , though there maybe areas of overlap where police officers and social services were complicit in other sex abuse cases.Socrates said:
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
It does make the whole issue into a poisoned chalice, where anyone who leads such an enquiry risks public pillioring.0 -
Right now it seems Labour will have to construct an elaborate 3 party coalition to be at most 5 years in power and you think that if the Conservative party disbanded and reformed into a new party without the Conservative or Tory party name thus getting many more votes, Milliband will be the longest PM in history?Richard_Nabavi said:
Unfortunately you'd have to live though a decade and a half of Miliband and his ilk first. Having already lived though long periods of disastrous government in the sixties and seventies, not to mention the last government, I'm not keen to repeat the experiment on the off-chance that it might all come right in the end.Speedy said:I think the destruction of the Tory party wouldn't be a bad thing.
Many people will never vote for a centre right wing party if they are called Tories.
If you dissolve it and made a new one with another name in it's place, it would be much more popular.
Forget about defending an old damaged brand, you should build a new product with a new name.0 -
If the remit of that inquiry was extended to cover all elements of child abuse in this country, including individual cases and potential cover-ups, then that problem would be avoided.foxinsoxuk said:
True , though there maybe areas of overlap where police officers and social services were complicit in other sex abuse cases.Socrates said:
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
It does make the whole issue into a poisoned chalice, where anyone who leads such an enquiry risks public pillioring.0 -
I don't think those sort of promises will work on the majority of the Conservative voters that have moved to UKIP, primarily because they believe they would never be delivered even if the Conservatives won an outright majority.Pulpstar said:
No inheritance tax on primary residence up to £2 million ?HurstLlama said:@Taffys
"And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back"
Really? Do tell, what can Cameron and his little clique do or say that would get people back?
My view is that Cameron can lose more of his 2010 supporters by what he says and does but he is not in a position to regain them. Some will go back of their own accord when they face up to the choice on the day, some will go back on the run up. Whether there will be enough of either in the right places so as to be helpful for the Conservatives we shall have to see.0 -
Tinfoil hat appears to be the blanket term for anyone who questions authority these days -even if the authority in question has been buggering your children.Ishmael_X said:
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
@NickPalmer
What are their views on...
- Whether people should be free to leave Islam
- Whether gay people should face criminal punishment
- What the punishment for adultery should be
- Whether Muslim girls should be allowed to marry non-Muslims
And these questions refer to under their ideal political system, not just "as things stand while this country remains majority non-Muslim".
When I hear moderate answers on those four questions, I will accept such as organisation is genuinely moderate.0 -
Neither of them, supposedly top lawyers, seem to have the foggiest about the principle of recusal of judges.Ishmael_X said:
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Sussex_Justices,_ex_parte_McCarthy
0 -
Well that, and the Russian Air Force.taffys said:
They are far more concerned about what goes on in Rotherham than they are about what goes on in Brussels.
0 -
Socrates said:foxinsoxuk said:Socrates said:foxinsoxuk said:
If the remit of that inquiry was extended to cover all elements of child abuse in this country, including individual cases and potential cover-ups, then that problem would be avoided.Socrates said:
True , though there maybe areas of overlap where police officers and social services were complicit in other sex abuse cases.Dadge said:kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
It does make the whole issue into a poisoned chalice, where anyone who leads such an enquiry risks public pillioring.
If the remit were extended as you seem to wish for it would not report till around the year 2214Socrates said:
If the remit of that inquiry was extended to cover all elements of child abuse in this country, including individual cases and potential cover-ups, then that problem would be avoided.foxinsoxuk said:
True , though there maybe areas of overlap where police officers and social services were complicit in other sex abuse cases.Socrates said:
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
It does make the whole issue into a poisoned chalice, where anyone who leads such an enquiry risks public pillioring.0 -
Find him a red and white scarf and bobble hat, and ask children to play Where's Wally.TheScreamingEagles said:Labour's slump really escalated after Ed's speech.
Fortunately labour will be able to hide him during six week election campaign.
Oh.
0 -
UKIP policy is to abolish Inheritance Tax in totalityHurstLlama said:
I don't think those sort of promises will work on the majority of the Conservative voters that have moved to UKIP, primarily because they believe they would never be delivered even if the Conservatives won an outright majority.Pulpstar said:
No inheritance tax on primary residence up to £2 million ?HurstLlama said:@Taffys
"And the tories still have a few cards to play to get some of their deserters back"
Really? Do tell, what can Cameron and his little clique do or say that would get people back?
My view is that Cameron can lose more of his 2010 supporters by what he says and does but he is not in a position to regain them. Some will go back of their own accord when they face up to the choice on the day, some will go back on the run up. Whether there will be enough of either in the right places so as to be helpful for the Conservatives we shall have to see.
http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people
Part of the attraction of UKIP for conservatives like myself is that they are openly offering what the conservative grassroots have been calling for for years and the Tory party is clearly never going to offer outright.....
0 -
If the remit of the inquiry was extended as you seem to wish , then it will not report until around the year 2214Socrates said:
If the remit of that inquiry was extended to cover all elements of child abuse in this country, including individual cases and potential cover-ups, then that problem would be avoided.foxinsoxuk said:Socrates said:
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
@MarkSenior
Then have a separate inquiry. There's no excuse for not investigating the street grooming gangs on a national level. We need to find out every town that this has happened in. Right now it's being left to the local council whether they want to investigate their own failures.0 -
HOUSE !Socrates said:@NickPalmer
Islam
gay
punishment for adultery should be
marry non-Muslims
genuinely moderate.
0 -
It was always going to be difficult to find somebody suitable to head up the enquiry because the two most interested parties had diametrically opposed wishes.Socrates said:
If the remit of that inquiry was extended to cover all elements of child abuse in this country, including individual cases and potential cover-ups, then that problem would be avoided.foxinsoxuk said:
True , though there maybe areas of overlap where police officers and social services were complicit in other sex abuse cases.Socrates said:
That inquiry will not look into individual cases of abuse and will not investigate the grooming gangs.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
It does make the whole issue into a poisoned chalice, where anyone who leads such an enquiry risks public pillioring.
One side wanted everything uncovered, at whatever cost; the other wanted to keep some control over the process. The trouble is now that the two false starts will have made both sides more entrenched.
I'm not sure where we go from here. Maybe it doesn't get resolved until after a GE.
0 -
I wrote 'activists', not Farage. Talk to some more UKIP activists. Visit the UKIP constituency office on 30 High St, Rochester. You'd be made very welcome. You, in particular, would be surprised how normal they are.Richard_Nabavi said:
Then you haven't been paying attention:david_kendrick1 said:I've no idea where you get the idea that UKIP activists are trying to 'destroy' the Tory party.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/25/Farage-will-destroy-tories
0 -
That's the spirit.Socrates said:@NickPalmer
What are their views on...
- Whether people should be free to leave Islam
- Whether gay people should face criminal punishment
- What the punishment for adultery should be
- Whether Muslim girls should be allowed to marry non-Muslims
And these questions refer to under their ideal political system, not just "as things stand while this country remains majority non-Muslim".
When I hear moderate answers on those four questions, I will accept such as organisation is genuinely moderate.
0 -
It's not his political views which would be the problem for him. He's a good QC - though is finding life tough with the Legal Aid cuts. But he's close to some of the survivors so may not be seen as impartial - it is after all possible that some of the allegations are untrue - and, of course, he may also know and/or have worked with or had dinner with people who might be called to give evidence.TheWatcher said:
Mansfield would leap at the chance, but he's too politically aligned.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
Interesting that according to the Sunday papers a number of people who could have been good choices have declined. Hardly surprising. It will be a tough gig at the best of times; add in all the abuse / casting doubt on your motives/impartiality and professionalism etc... Why would anyone want to take the job?
0 -
You reminded me of some old attacks that Reagan was a far right extremist who if ever rose through republican ranks will condemn america to 20 years of democratic party rule.isam said:Whenever Richard Nabavi adopts his "Concerned Father of the Nation" tone for the future if we don't all agree with him and vote for David Cameron, I cant help but imagine him addressing us in the style of these fellows
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ-xSNTVOiw
http://davekopel.org/Misc/OpEds/Ronald-Reagan-extremist-collaborator.html
"As the election drew near, the Washington Post highlighted the views of some Republican critics of Reagan: former Governor Goodwin Knight, liberal Republican U.S. Senator Tom Kuchel, San Francisco Mayor George Christopher, and conservative state Assemblyman Joseph Shell. “Their skepticism is based partly on his lack of experience, partly on the fact that he once teamed up with extreme leftists, now is backed by extreme rightists. They wonder whether, if elected, he would prove to be a ‘revolving door’ governor, given to sudden policy reversals.” (10/27/66).
The previous year, Kuchel had blasted the conservative Republican movement in California as “A fanatical, neo-Fascist, political cult, overcome by a strange mixture of corrosive hatred and sickening fear.” "0 -
His lordship’s poll is a bit of a bummer for Ed – when does ridicule turn to pity?0
-
The Ahmadiyyas are a persecuted minority in places like Pakistan:Socrates said:@NickPalmer
What are their views on...
- Whether people should be free to leave Islam
- Whether gay people should face criminal punishment
- What the punishment for adultery should be
- Whether Muslim girls should be allowed to marry non-Muslims
And these questions refer to under their ideal political system, not just "as things stand while this country remains majority non-Muslim".
When I hear moderate answers on those four questions, I will accept such as organisation is genuinely moderate.
Approximately 2–5 million Ahmadis live in Pakistan and is the home to the largest population of Ahmadis in the world.[89] It is the only state to have officially declared the Ahmadis to be non-Muslims as they do not regard the Prophet Muhammad to be the final prophet;[84] here their freedom of religion has been curtailed by a series of ordinances, acts and constitutional amendments. In 1974, Pakistan's parliament adopted a law declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslims;[90] the country's constitution was amended to define a Muslim "as a person who believes in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad".[91] In 1984, General Zia-ul-Haq, the then military ruler of Pakistan, issued Ordinance XX.[92][93] The ordinance, which was supposed to prevent "anti-Islamic activities", forbids Ahmadis to call themselves Muslim or to "pose as Muslims". This means that they are not allowed to profess the Islamic creed publicly or call their places of worship mosques.[94] Ahmadis in Pakistan are also barred by law from worshipping in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms, performing the Muslim call to prayer, using the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quoting from the Quran, preaching in public, seeking converts, or producing, publishing, and disseminating their religious materials. These acts are punishable by imprisonment of up to three years.[39] In applying for a passport or a national ID card, all Pakistanis are required to sign an oath declaring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be an impostor prophet and all Ahmadis to be non-Muslims.[95] The word "Muslim" was erased from the gravestone of the Nobel prize winning theoretical physicist Abdus Salam, because he was an Ahmadi.[95]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya0 -
No tinfoil hatters refers to an excessive and unrealistic fear of something (i.e. Paranoia). For example in this case I believe the intent is to suggest that the fears that the two judges would have been compromised in their roles of overseeing such an enquiry were excessive.Luckyguy1983 said:
Tinfoil hat appears to be the blanket term for anyone who questions authority these days -even if the authority in question has been buggering your children.Ishmael_X said:
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time0 -
8/5/15SimonStClare said:His lordship’s poll is a bit of a bummer for Ed – when does ridicule turn to pity?
0 -
Normal, David?david_kendrick1 said:
I wrote 'activists', not Farage. Talk to some more UKIP activists. Visit the UKIP constituency office on 30 High St, Rochester. You'd be made very welcome. You, in particular, would be surprised how normal they are.Richard_Nabavi said:
Then you haven't been paying attention:david_kendrick1 said:I've no idea where you get the idea that UKIP activists are trying to 'destroy' the Tory party.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/25/Farage-will-destroy-tories
Have you lost the plot? Don't you know this is how they see things?
http://www.dover-express.co.uk/Ukip-s-Little-Bono-Bongo-map-storm/story-23953024-detail/story.html
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I see. I thought it was to make your pouncing on my post calling me a nutter when we've never exchanged words seem slightly more conversational and slightly less rude and frankly odd.Anorak said:Hasty edit? My MI5 handler insisted on it.
Since you ask, I think chemtrails are at the "X-Files" end of the conspiricy theory spectrum, i.e. 100% bullshit.
I've never understood why, when governments are tripped up by the most simple and trivial attempts at a cover-up or deception, some people still believe it's possible for the US authorities to murder several thousand people in (mostly) New York and Washington without any credible evidence or whistle-blowing coming to light. Bonkers.
I bow to your superior knowledge on chemtrails -I have only the vaguest idea of what they're supposed to be.
As for your second paragraph -your argument is entirely circular. It cannot be true because if it were we would know it were true. The fact is there is mountainous physical, forensic, and circumstantial evidence, but there will never be a 'smoking gun' moment, because the world is about perception, and unless something is carried in the media, it doesn't 'come out'. A critical mass of people (currently) accept the official version and shun further enquiry -that's fine, but it's hardly evidence.0 -
Taxis for Sadiq Khan.
He might enjoy reading this:- http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/index.php#search0 -
I did think Innocent Abroad's Con 35%- Labour 25% - UKIP 23% split to be highly unlikely. But as time goes on....
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They are legitimate questions to ask SO. The first is a cardinal principle under the ECHR and the right to free speech. The second is contrary to our law. Neither the criminal nor the civil law concern themselves with adultery, beyond the question of whether it leads to the end of a marriage. And we have a general interest in the 4th - simply because we feel that marriage should be freely chosen i.e. that there should be no bar to marrying out of the faith, not least because this may help with integration, quite apart from the happiness of the people concerned.SouthamObserver said:
That's the spirit.Socrates said:@NickPalmer
What are their views on...
- Whether people should be free to leave Islam
- Whether gay people should face criminal punishment
- What the punishment for adultery should be
- Whether Muslim girls should be allowed to marry non-Muslims
And these questions refer to under their ideal political system, not just "as things stand while this country remains majority non-Muslim".
When I hear moderate answers on those four questions, I will accept such as organisation is genuinely moderate.
However, from the little I know, this group of Muslims tends to be generally more moderate than the Deobandi strand of Islam, though it is the latter which seems to have more purchase in the UK. I thought that this group were persecuted in Pakistan as not being proper Muslims, but I may be wrong on that.
Edit: I see Sunil P got there before me on the last point.
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Can we include those who have an excessive or unrealistic fear of UKIP?manofkent2014 said:
No tinfoil hatters refers to an excessive and unrealistic fear of something (i.e. Paranoia). For example in this case I believe the intent is to suggest that the fears that the two judges would have been compromised in their roles of overseeing such an enquiry were excessive.Luckyguy1983 said:
Tinfoil hat appears to be the blanket term for anyone who questions authority these days -even if the authority in question has been buggering your children.Ishmael_X said:
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
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See my post just now!Cyclefree said:
However, from the little I know, this group of Muslims tends to be generally more moderate than the Deobandi strand of Islam, though it is the latter which seems to have more purchase in the UK. I thought that this group were persecuted in Pakistan as not being proper Muslims, but I may be wrong on that.0 -
@Sunil_Prasannan
That's very sad. No-one should be so persecuted on the grounds of their faith.
That, however, does not imply they are religiously moderate. Mainstream Islamic organisations have decidedly non-moderate answers to the four questions I asked. There are plenty of Muslim individuals that are moderate, but in most cases they are not that religious.0 -
I have been known to use the phrase in some form when dealing with some of the more extreme online sufferers of such fears!Luckyguy1983 said:
Can we include those who have an excessive or unrealistic fear of UKIP?manofkent2014 said:
No tinfoil hatters refers to an excessive and unrealistic fear of something (i.e. Paranoia). For example in this case I believe the intent is to suggest that the fears that the two judges would have been compromised in their roles of overseeing such an enquiry were excessive.Luckyguy1983 said:
Tinfoil hat appears to be the blanket term for anyone who questions authority these days -even if the authority in question has been buggering your children.Ishmael_X said:
Why "tinfoil hatters"? It was the victims themselves who took the view that someone you've had to dinner or vv five times is a close friend of yours, and that you shouldn't be investigating allegations against them. If you are prepared to make statements about the relationship as to whose truth you are at the very least entirely reckless, that wraps it up for any reasonable and unprejudiced observer.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
;-)0 -
There are plenty of people qualified to do the job who would doubtless be willing to do so but the problem is exactly as you indicate with the Mansfield example.Cyclefree said:
It's not his political views which would be the problem for him. He's a good QC - though is finding life tough with the Legal Aid cuts. But he's close to some of the survivors so may not be seen as impartial - it is after all possible that some of the allegations are untrue - and, of course, he may also know and/or have worked with or had dinner with people who might be called to give evidence.TheWatcher said:
Mansfield would leap at the chance, but he's too politically aligned.foxinsoxuk said:
Isn't the problem that the tinfoil hatters have deposed the last two judges appointed to lead the enquiry, and no one else wants to handle the poisoned chalice?Socrates said:
The difference is that the Prime Minister wants justice and truth from plebgate, but not with regards to Asian grooming gangs.Dadge said:
It's amazing how long this sh*tty little scandal has gone on for. Meanwhile, the country can't organise an enquiry into an enormous scandal of real importance like nationwide child sex abuse.kle4 said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29885985
Three Police Federation officers are to be investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission over their role in the "Plebgate" affair.
Not before time
Interesting that according to the Sunday papers a number of people who could have been good choices have declined. Hardly surprising. It will be a tough gig at the best of times; add in all the abuse / casting doubt on your motives/impartiality and professionalism etc... Why would anyone want to take the job?
He would enjoy the confidence of the survivors but the Government would regard him as a little too close to them. That's perfectly understandable (although the Government did seem to have difficulty in understanding why Woolf and her predecessor were regarded by the survivors as too close to the Government.)
I think they're going to have to look overseas.0 -
I'm sorry if my calling you - a self-identifying conspiricy theorist - a 'nutter' made you feel sad. However, if you're going to venture onto a public forum with views like that then you need to develop thicker skin.Luckyguy1983 said:
I see. I thought it was to make your pouncing on my post calling me a nutter when we've never exchanged words seem slightly more conversational and slightly less rude and frankly odd.Anorak said:Hasty edit? My MI5 handler insisted on it.
Since you ask, I think chemtrails are at the "X-Files" end of the conspiricy theory spectrum, i.e. 100% bullshit.
I've never understood why, when governments are tripped up by the most simple and trivial attempts at a cover-up or deception, some people still believe it's possible for the US authorities to murder several thousand people in (mostly) New York and Washington without any credible evidence or whistle-blowing coming to light. Bonkers.
I bow to your superior knowledge on chemtrails -I have only the vaguest idea of what they're supposed to be.
As for your second paragraph -your argument is entirely circular. It cannot be true because if it were we would know it were true. The fact is there is mountainous physical, forensic, and circumstantial evidence, but there will never be a 'smoking gun' moment, because the world is about perception, and unless something is carried in the media, it doesn't 'come out'. A critical mass of people (currently) accept the official version and shun further enquiry -that's fine, but it's hardly evidence.
The "odd" comment showed a wonderful lack of self-awareness, and cheered me up immensely. You can view that comment as thick-skin training. Sleep tight.0
