A Good Deed – politicalbetting.com

The government has finally done something right! I know. Scarcely believable. Admittedly, it’s early days and it’s by its Legal Department (which usually manages to maintain some modicum of integrity and competence – or tries to anyway.) Small mercies. What has it done? The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, Alex Chalk, and Attorney-General, Victoria Prentis have announced an independent inquiry into the Andy Malkinson case. This will be into all the relevant authorities: the Greater Manchester Police (1 of 5 police forces in special measures), the Crown Prosecution Service and the Criminal Cases Review Commission. All three of them have pledged their full co-operation, not that they had any alternative, despite their own separate inquiries. The IOPC is looking at the police’s behaviour but, given its feeble record, little could have been expected of it. The CCRC has appointed a KC to review its behaviour; doubtless his findings will be fed into this one. The Law Commission is also reviewing this case as part of its wider review into the criminal appeals process.
Comments
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Lawyers are the best plus Darren Jones.
Kemi Badenoch = Radiohead of politcs.0 -
Hear hear.
And "Advanced Boardroom Excellence" is a decidedly ambiguous term.0 -
an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change2
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Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
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This government has done something right. Good.
It gets rather less credit because it explored all other options first.5 -
Someone has at least decided to do the right thing on their way out the door. Too much to hope this may be catching.0
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There is a scene in A Connecticut Yankee At Kings Arthur’s Court
Well, she certainly was a curious one, was Morgan le Fay. I have seen a good many kinds of women in my time, but she laid over them all for variety. And how sharply characteristic of her this episode was. She had no more idea than a horse of how to photograph a procession; but being in doubt, it was just like her to try to do it with an axe.
I like the idea of this kind of photography.0 -
Bit unfair to Radiohead.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best plus Darren Jones.
Kemi Badenoch = Radiohead of politcs.0 -
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
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The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
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Greater Manchester Police appear to be most to blame.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
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The Greater GoodMalmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
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"I don't believe it. I don't believe it! You're meant to come down here and defend me against these characters, and the only one I've got on my side is the blood-sucking lawyer!"2
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The one niggle I have - and I may be grossly unfair - is that it's perhaps aimed at SKS. There was some overlap with his time as head of the CPS.DavidL said:Someone has at least decided to do the right thing on their way out the door. Too much to hope this may be catching.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/aug/15/dna-and-injustice-a-timeline-of-the-andrew-malkinson-case1 -
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.2 -
So what do we think about this case:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784
Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".1 -
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.1 -
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
1 -
I wouldn’t put it past the establishment to try to make Andy Malkinson pay the costs of the various enquiries.0
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HmmmSunil_Prasannan said:
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
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FascistMalmesbury said:
HmmmSunil_Prasannan said:
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.2 -
Hagviewcode said:
FascistMalmesbury said:
HmmmSunil_Prasannan said:
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.3 -
LampreyMalmesbury said:
Hagviewcode said:
FascistMalmesbury said:
HmmmSunil_Prasannan said:
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.1 -
Personally I am not a fan of Helen's law. This man is almost certainly lying but if he isn't... Once he has served his punishment part he should be assessed as to whether he is a risk to the community like any other lifer.Alphabet_Soup said:So what do we think about this case:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784
Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".6 -
You wanna be a big cop in a small town? F*** off up the model village!Carnyx said:
LampreyMalmesbury said:
Hagviewcode said:
FascistMalmesbury said:
HmmmSunil_Prasannan said:
"No luck catching them killers, then?"Malmesbury said:
Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?Pagan2 said:
The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?Malmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.1 -
Yes. But is it not true that acceptance of the realities of what you have done is part of becoming less of a risk to the community?DavidL said:
Personally I am not a fan of Helen's law. This man is almost certainly lying but if he isn't... Once he has served his punishment part he should be assessed as to whether he is a risk to the community like any other lifer.Alphabet_Soup said:So what do we think about this case:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784
Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".0 -
Yarpviewcode said:
The Greater GoodMalmesbury said:
For The Greater GoodPagan2 said:an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
1 -
..........0
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Certainly, and it is something that the Parole Board can very properly take into account. But their hands should not be tied to the extent that they are now.Malmesbury said:
Yes. But is it not true that acceptance of the realities of what you have done is part of becoming less of a risk to the community?DavidL said:
Personally I am not a fan of Helen's law. This man is almost certainly lying but if he isn't... Once he has served his punishment part he should be assessed as to whether he is a risk to the community like any other lifer.Alphabet_Soup said:So what do we think about this case:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784
Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".1 -
Are you now in Poland?Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
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Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.5 -
Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealersPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents6 -
Nice piece to read, C3.
Chalk is an MP I'd personally like to keep in the House, but I believe the LDs have him in their crosshairs.
My own local Fuzz Force, Gloucestershire, are one of the filthy five in special measures. Unlike Greater Manchester and the Met, they do not appear to have been associated with any particular special scandal. I think it's just their sheer level of incompetence generally.1 -
Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.Peter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.2 -
Thank you.Malmesbury said:
Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealersPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]1 -
Human Resources - people who only tick irrelevant boxesMalmesbury said:
Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealersPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
Journalists - people who try to convince their readers that week old twitter posts are news.3 -
Barclays are the pushiest bank I know, in a fiercely competitive field.Alphabet_Soup said:
Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.Peter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.0 -
The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election1 -
Since Miss C3 has been so nice to an Institution we generally like to slag off, may I add a word of praise in favour of the Cheshire Police who did such an outstanding job in the Letby case.
I have no experience of Cheshire Police and wonder if those who do can testify as whether such excellent work was characteristic of their work generally. It would be nice to think there is at least one Force out there that is up to snuff.0 -
The last election was during COVID so the 50% was exceptionally highAndy_JS said:The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election0 -
https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.0 -
Bankers lend you an umbrella when it's sunny and take it back when it rainsPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.5 -
There is a special subculture of them now called Data Management Consultants. They will charge you a lot of money to provide you with some colourful diagrams and tell you that you ought to spend a huge amount of money on IT consultants.Peter_the_Punter said:
Thank you.Malmesbury said:
Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealersPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]
I shouldn't be so cynical about them because they help keep me in work, but they do leave clients with the impression that unicorns and mermaids can be willed into existence.1 -
"Marcus Walker
Is the Church of England giving up on Sunday worship?"
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-church-of-england-giving-up-on-sunday-worship/0 -
The Criminal Cases Review Commission trumpets this overturning of a miscarriage of justice as its success. As far as I can tell, the CCRC not doing its job properly is the main reason Mr Malkinson languished in jail for 17 years, for a crime he didn't commit.2
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Damn fine work, @cyclefree. If only there was a PB.com constituency that could elect you, you'd be an asset and an ornament to the House.4
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Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.0 -
Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.
(BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)3 -
Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.Malmesbury said:
Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.0 -
There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.Cyclefree said:
Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.
(BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)0 -
Good article as always Cyclefree. Thank you.1
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Too many. And they often seem to be the ones with a lot of influence on institutional culture for some reason.Pulpstar said:
There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.Cyclefree said:
Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.
(BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)0 -
And they are badly let down by the bad ones.Pulpstar said:
There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.Cyclefree said:
Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.
(BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)2 -
Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.5 -
Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/0 -
Yet in the NZ PR system it's the potential coalition support that matters, and the potential left coalition is just a tiny bit behind the potential right coalition when all the parties are aggregated. At the last GE, the margin of victory for NZ Labour was also greatly underestimated by the polls. So the NZ election remains in the balance.Andy_JS said:The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election1 -
The reason given by the CCRC for not proceeding is very strange. The comment was that there was "no certainty" that the other DNA found on the victim's clothing was "crime specific".
That makes it sound as though they were asking the wrong question entirely. Certainty that someone else's DNA was crime-specific would have proved that Malkinson was certainly innocent (given that there was only one assailant). Obviously, reasonable doubt of guilt is the correct criterion.3 -
No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.Pulpstar said:
Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.Malmesbury said:
Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.
It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.
It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.2 -
Krakow is a lovely city.
6 -
They love Trump and as a second or third choice, Ramaswamy, it is rather hard to get into their mindset.edmundintokyo said:Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/
Haley seems to have done rather well out of it if Trump is looking for a VP.
Scott appears to have made no impression at all based on that, whereas at least Christie and Hutchinson picked up some hate.0 -
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠6 -
The lawsuit seems to be arguing that this has no bearing on hiring decisions because there is a process for non-US citizens to get authorisation from the government, and refugees are apparently classed as "US persons" anyway...Malmesbury said:
No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.Pulpstar said:
Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.Malmesbury said:
Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.
It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.
It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.
https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline
SpaceX officials have repeatedly said publicly that they can only hire U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents because of export control laws and regulations, like ITAR.
But export control laws and regulations do not prohibit or restrict employers from hiring asylees and refugees; those laws treat asylees and refugees just like U.S. citizens.
Under IT AR and EAR, "U.S. persons" working for U.S. companies can access exportr controlled items without authorization from the U.S. government. A "U.S. person" under IT AR and EAR, includes a U.S. citizen or national, a lawful permanent resident, a refugee, or an asylee. 22 C.F.R. § 120.62; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772.
In contrast, a "foreign person"-anyone who is not a "U.S. person" under ITAR and EAR may need authorization from the federal government to access export-controlled items. 22 C.F.R. §§ 120.62 and 120.63; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772. For a "foreign person" employee to access export-controlled items, their employer must apply to the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce and obtain approval.
SpaceX regularly conducts export compliance assessments, a process to check whether new and existing workers require authorization to access export-controlled items. During this process, new and existing workers identify their citizenship or immigration status and present documentation proving their citizenship or immigration status to show whether they are a "U.S. person" or "foreign person."
Despite SpaceX's claims, IT AR and EAR do not contain employment or hiring restrictions. They do not require employers to limit jobs based on citizenship or immigration status. And they do not prohibit employers from hiring asylees and refugees. Thus, they do not create an exception to hiring discrimination under 8 U.S.C. § 1324b(a)(2)(C)1 -
After that performance, DeSantis ends up leading Trump in "considering voting for". (DeSantis increases from 63% to 67.5%, Trump drops from 66.2% to 61.4%.)kle4 said:
They love Trump and as a second or third choice, Ramaswamy, it is rather hard to get into their mindset.edmundintokyo said:Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/
Haley seems to have done rather well out of it if Trump is looking for a VP.
Scott appears to have made no impression at all based on that, whereas at least Christie and Hutchinson picked up some hate.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯0 -
A banker is a man who gives you an umbrella when the sun is shining and demands it back as it begins to rainPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.2 -
Lib Dem gain in Wight.1
-
There is nothing wrong with seeking out new worshippers and weekly services and allowing Christians to enjoy sport (unlike the 17th century Puritans did as Marcus says) but yes Sunday worship must remain at the core of the Church of England serviceAndy_JS said:"Marcus Walker
Is the Church of England giving up on Sunday worship?"
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-church-of-england-giving-up-on-sunday-worship/0 -
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
1 -
Would be first win for a conservative party in the Anglosphere since Boris' win in 2019Andy_JS said:The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election0 -
Except that the approval for export control led item access is limited to specifics. And quite often is refused.williamglenn said:
The lawsuit seems to be arguing that this has no bearing on hiring decisions because there is a process for non-US citizens to get authorisation from the government, and refugees are apparently classed as "US persons" anyway...Malmesbury said:
No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.Pulpstar said:
Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.Malmesbury said:
Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.
It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.
It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.
https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline
SpaceX officials have repeatedly said publicly that they can only hire U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents because of export control laws and regulations, like ITAR.
But export control laws and regulations do not prohibit or restrict employers from hiring asylees and refugees; those laws treat asylees and refugees just like U.S. citizens.
Under IT AR and EAR, "U.S. persons" working for U.S. companies can access exportr controlled items without authorization from the U.S. government. A "U.S. person" under IT AR and EAR, includes a U.S. citizen or national, a lawful permanent resident, a refugee, or an asylee. 22 C.F.R. § 120.62; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772.
In contrast, a "foreign person"-anyone who is not a "U.S. person" under ITAR and EAR may need authorization from the federal government to access export-controlled items. 22 C.F.R. §§ 120.62 and 120.63; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772. For a "foreign person" employee to access export-controlled items, their employer must apply to the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce and obtain approval.
SpaceX regularly conducts export compliance assessments, a process to check whether new and existing workers require authorization to access export-controlled items. During this process, new and existing workers identify their citizenship or immigration status and present documentation proving their citizenship or immigration status to show whether they are a "U.S. person" or "foreign person."
Despite SpaceX's claims, IT AR and EAR do not contain employment or hiring restrictions. They do not require employers to limit jobs based on citizenship or immigration status. And they do not prohibit employers from hiring asylees and refugees. Thus, they do not create an exception to hiring discrimination under 8 U.S.C. § 1324b(a)(2)(C)
This can cause all kinds of fun. Your non-US citizen employee invents a new widget. Under ITAR this widget is the property of a US company and export controlled. Your employee (and your company) are now in the shit, since the employee wasn’t specifically approved for access to the widget they invented.0 -
Trump sees a 5% decline in GOP voters considering backing him post debate, looks like he will have to be in the next one to avoid further decline.edmundintokyo said:Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/
Haley gets the biggest post debate bounce followed by Burgum1 -
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.4 -
Depending on what they discovered, that conclusion might be reasonable. I think the bar is set quite high for a CCRC referral. The problem was they never bothered to investigate. If they had checked the DNA it would have matched to someone who was already on the DNA register with a criminal record. It would be hard for them in that case to determine it wasn't new and highly relevant evidence and therefore the case should be referred.Chris said:The reason given by the CCRC for not proceeding is very strange. The comment was that there was "no certainty" that the other DNA found on the victim's clothing was "crime specific".
That makes it sound as though they were asking the wrong question entirely. Certainty that someone else's DNA was crime-specific would have proved that Malkinson was certainly innocent (given that there was only one assailant). Obviously, reasonable doubt of guilt is the correct criterion.1 -
In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”Cyclefree said:
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.2 -
Lab gain in Dudley.4
-
If we're talking definitions:-Malmesbury said:
In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”Cyclefree said:
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
HR - Human Remains
Good HR people are rare and worth their weight in gold. Most are just the employment equivalent of spending time in purgatory.0 -
Perhaps others are like this too, though it seems amped up with HR professionals in my experience, but they can be very insistent on their own processes needing to be followed but incredibly blase about others' processes, or legal processes not directly connected with them, being followed.Malmesbury said:
In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”Cyclefree said:
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
I prefer my rule followers to be consistent.0 -
I can only speak to my own experience, and of people I know, but in and out of the NHS very little mention if any is usually made of these processes and requirements, probably for sake of a quiet life on the basis most of the time it won't (appear to) matter.Cyclefree said:
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
Which means you are even more reliant on a few experienced and knowledgeable individuals for when it is necessary, but if you were listening to them the situation would not be as it is anyway.0 -
My bank, Bank of Scotland, will one day try and sell me investments and pension advice, and the next day try and sell me a personal loan.Alphabet_Soup said:
Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.Peter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.0 -
O/T
"88 UK deaths linked to Canada 'poison seller'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-666098840 -
Canadian selling assisted suicide kits, by the look of it.Andy_JS said:O/T
"88 UK deaths linked to Canada 'poison seller'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-666098840 -
Nice to read a positive story from Cyclefree.0
-
It's actually worse than that.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
Enquiries regularly come out with general recommendations for reform - which are just as regularly ignored.
Perhaps better aims would be for them to report in more a timely manner - often, by the time they report, it's many years on - and to have some mechanism to follow up in recommendations.1 -
New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.
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Gardenwalker explained why on here the day before yesterday.Andy_JS said:The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election
I think more than one regular pb'er was taken in by Saint Jacinda at the time.0 -
Almost certainly, sadly.Cyclefree said:
It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.Richard_Nabavi said:
One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?Cyclefree said:
You are absolutely right.Richard_Nabavi said:Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.
One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?
Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.
I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.
For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.
The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.
Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.
The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.
Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.
😠
And yet this is how the NHS works.
The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.1 -
I see he lied about both his height and weight.TheScreamingEagles said:New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.
215 lbs LOL.1 -
My first thought on waking up and seeing Trump's mugshot is that he's going for a Zoolander look.2
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That's what happens when you try to take the voters for a Ryde.slade said:Lib Dem gain in Wight.
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That's a good mugshot. The merch sales are going to be incredible.TheScreamingEagles said:New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.
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Several evolutionary biologists are also hurriedly recasting their theories to show that humans can evolve back into apes.Eabhal said:
That's a good mugshot. The merch sales are going to be incredible.TheScreamingEagles said:New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.
Gives hope for the orangutan population.3 -
A politically motivated attack on a company run by an African American immigrant.williamglenn said:https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/
The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.
“The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.
Not a good look !!!!1 -
Sunak speaks for Scotland, Tories gain all the Glasgow seats next year?
Poll shows most Scots back Sunak’s oil plans for the North Sea
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/poll-shows-most-scots-back-sunak-s-plans-for-the-north-sea-q23c2f0n7
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I see the Orange one is posting on Twitter.
Not a good sign.0 -
It’s a very good sign. Too much of that and he can be locked up.TheScreamingEagles said:I see the Orange one is posting on Twitter.
Not a good sign.0 -
I'm making a very good living as a Management Consultant. To be fair the clients I am advising don't seem to know what a watch is, so I'm not robbing them as disguised.Peter_the_Punter said:
Thank you.Malmesbury said:
Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealersPeter_the_Punter said:
Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.Alphabet_Soup said:
Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.Sandpit said:
Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.TheScreamingEagles said:Lawyers are the best
Others I like include:
Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]1