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A Good Deed – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,889
edited August 2023 in General
imageA Good Deed – politicalbetting.com

The government has finally done something right! I know. Scarcely believable. Admittedly, it’s early days and it’s by its Legal Department (which usually manages to maintain some modicum of integrity and competence – or tries to anyway.) Small mercies. What has it done? The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, Alex Chalk, and Attorney-General, Victoria Prentis have announced an independent inquiry into the Andy Malkinson case. This will be into all the relevant authorities: the Greater Manchester Police (1 of 5 police forces in special measures), the Crown Prosecution Service and the Criminal Cases Review Commission. All three of them have pledged their full co-operation, not that they had any alternative, despite their own separate inquiries. The IOPC is looking at the police’s behaviour but, given its feeble record, little could have been expected of it. The CCRC has appointed a KC to review its behaviour; doubtless his findings will be fed into this one. The Law Commission is also reviewing this case as part of its wider review into the criminal appeals process.

Read the full story here

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 116,672
    edited August 2023
    Lawyers are the best plus Darren Jones.

    Kemi Badenoch = Radiohead of politcs.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    Hear hear.

    And "Advanced Boardroom Excellence" is a decidedly ambiguous term.
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    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,196
    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 51,412

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,392
    Someone has at least decided to do the right thing on their way out the door. Too much to hope this may be catching.
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    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,196
    ydoethur said:

    This government has done something right. Good.

    It gets rather less credit because it explored all other options first.

    Governements purpose is not to do good but to line pockets whatever their colour
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    There is a scene in A Connecticut Yankee At Kings Arthur’s Court


    Well, she certainly was a curious one, was Morgan le Fay. I have seen a good many kinds of women in my time, but she laid over them all for variety. And how sharply characteristic of her this episode was. She had no more idea than a horse of how to photograph a procession; but being in doubt, it was just like her to try to do it with an axe.


    I like the idea of this kind of photography.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,800
    Pagan2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    This government has done something right. Good.

    It gets rather less credit because it explored all other options first.

    Governements purpose is not to do good but to line pockets whatever their colour
    As beautifully lampooned by Matt in 2012
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301

    Lawyers are the best plus Darren Jones.

    Kemi Badenoch = Radiohead of politcs.

    Bit unfair to Radiohead.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,196

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The Greater Good
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301
    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Greater Manchester Police appear to be most to blame.
  • Options
    "I don't believe it. I don't believe it! You're meant to come down here and defend me against these characters, and the only one I've got on my side is the blood-sucking lawyer!"
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556
    edited August 2023
    DavidL said:

    Someone has at least decided to do the right thing on their way out the door. Too much to hope this may be catching.

    The one niggle I have - and I may be grossly unfair - is that it's perhaps aimed at SKS. There was some overlap with his time as head of the CPS.

    https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/aug/15/dna-and-injustice-a-timeline-of-the-andrew-malkinson-case
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,877
    So what do we think about this case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784

    Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".
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    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,877
    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
  • Options
    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,450
    I wouldn’t put it past the establishment to try to make Andy Malkinson pay the costs of the various enquiries.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
    Hmmm


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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
    Hmmm


    Fascist
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
    Hmmm


    Fascist
    Hag
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 41,556

    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
    Hmmm


    Fascist
    Hag
    Lamprey
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Carnyx said:

    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The question thats begging there is for the greater good of who?
    Have you not watched Hot Fuzz?

    The whole point is that the FTGG is a demented, murderous lie.
    "No luck catching them killers, then?"
    Hmmm


    Fascist
    Hag
    Lamprey
    You wanna be a big cop in a small town? F*** off up the model village!
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    DavidL said:

    So what do we think about this case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784

    Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".

    Personally I am not a fan of Helen's law. This man is almost certainly lying but if he isn't... Once he has served his punishment part he should be assessed as to whether he is a risk to the community like any other lifer.
    Yes. But is it not true that acceptance of the realities of what you have done is part of becoming less of a risk to the community?
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    viewcode said:

    Pagan2 said:

    an inquiry where lessons will be learnt no doubt but nothing will actually change

    For The Greater Good
    The Greater Good
    Yarp
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 20,118
    ..........
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,392

    DavidL said:

    So what do we think about this case:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-66603784

    Parole Board says "Tell us where her body is". Razzell says "I don't know because I didn't kill her".

    Personally I am not a fan of Helen's law. This man is almost certainly lying but if he isn't... Once he has served his punishment part he should be assessed as to whether he is a risk to the community like any other lifer.
    Yes. But is it not true that acceptance of the realities of what you have done is part of becoming less of a risk to the community?
    Certainly, and it is something that the Parole Board can very properly take into account. But their hands should not be tied to the extent that they are now.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 52,392
    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Are you now in Poland?
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    Nice piece to read, C3.

    Chalk is an MP I'd personally like to keep in the House, but I believe the LDs have him in their crosshairs.

    My own local Fuzz Force, Gloucestershire, are one of the filthy five in special measures. Unlike Greater Manchester and the Met, they do not appear to have been associated with any particular special scandal. I think it's just their sheer level of incompetence generally.
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    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,877
    edited August 2023

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealers

    Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
    Thank you.

    And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,450

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealers

    Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
    Human Resources - people who only tick irrelevant boxes

    Journalists - people who try to convince their readers that week old twitter posts are news.
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    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.
    Barclays are the pushiest bank I know, in a fiercely competitive field.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,879
    edited August 2023
    The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election
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    Since Miss C3 has been so nice to an Institution we generally like to slag off, may I add a word of praise in favour of the Cheshire Police who did such an outstanding job in the Letby case.

    I have no experience of Cheshire Police and wonder if those who do can testify as whether such excellent work was characteristic of their work generally. It would be nice to think there is at least one Force out there that is up to snuff.
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    Andy_JS said:

    The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

    The last election was during COVID so the 50% was exceptionally high
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612
    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 16,883

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealers

    Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
    Thank you.

    And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]
    There is a special subculture of them now called Data Management Consultants. They will charge you a lot of money to provide you with some colourful diagrams and tell you that you ought to spend a huge amount of money on IT consultants.

    I shouldn't be so cynical about them because they help keep me in work, but they do leave clients with the impression that unicorns and mermaids can be willed into existence.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,879
    "Marcus Walker
    Is the Church of England giving up on Sunday worship?"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-church-of-england-giving-up-on-sunday-worship/
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,319
    The Criminal Cases Review Commission trumpets this overturning of a miscarriage of justice as its success. As far as I can tell, the CCRC not doing its job properly is the main reason Mr Malkinson languished in jail for 17 years, for a crime he didn't commit.
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    jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 744
    Damn fine work, @cyclefree. If only there was a PB.com constituency that could elect you, you'd be an asset and an ornament to the House.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.

    But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.

    (BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,808
    edited August 2023

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.
    Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,808
    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.

    But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.

    (BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)
    There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.
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    Good article as always Cyclefree. Thank you.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    Pulpstar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.

    But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.

    (BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)
    There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.
    Too many. And they often seem to be the ones with a lot of influence on institutional culture for some reason.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Pulpstar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers have not done well in either this case or the Post Office / Horizon case. Indeed lawyers have often been at fault in many of the miscarriage of justice cases. It's often overlooked but shouldn't be.

    But there are some good ones out there. And I second what @Peter_the_Punter said about the Cheshire Police's work on the Letby case.

    (BTW I am amused to note that the ex-PB'er stalker who disobeyed OGH is now stalking him and me on Twitter and being as childishly rude there as on here. I honestly don't know (and don't care) what on earth I can have done to annoy him so.)
    There's good police officers, NHS workers and lawyers about. And some not so good ones too.
    And they are badly let down by the bad ones.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,304
    Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,744
    Andy_JS said:

    The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

    Yet in the NZ PR system it's the potential coalition support that matters, and the potential left coalition is just a tiny bit behind the potential right coalition when all the parties are aggregated. At the last GE, the margin of victory for NZ Labour was also greatly underestimated by the polls. So the NZ election remains in the balance.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,577
    The reason given by the CCRC for not proceeding is very strange. The comment was that there was "no certainty" that the other DNA found on the victim's clothing was "crime specific".

    That makes it sound as though they were asking the wrong question entirely. Certainty that someone else's DNA was crime-specific would have proved that Malkinson was certainly innocent (given that there was only one assailant). Obviously, reasonable doubt of guilt is the correct criterion.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Pulpstar said:

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.
    Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.
    No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.

    It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.

    It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    edited August 2023

    Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/

    They love Trump and as a second or third choice, Ramaswamy, it is rather hard to get into their mindset.

    Haley seems to have done rather well out of it if Trump is looking for a VP.

    Scott appears to have made no impression at all based on that, whereas at least Christie and Hutchinson picked up some hate.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 49,612
    edited August 2023

    Pulpstar said:

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.
    Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.
    No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.

    It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.

    It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.
    The lawsuit seems to be arguing that this has no bearing on hiring decisions because there is a process for non-US citizens to get authorisation from the government, and refugees are apparently classed as "US persons" anyway...

    https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline

    SpaceX officials have repeatedly said publicly that they can only hire U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents because of export control laws and regulations, like ITAR.

    But export control laws and regulations do not prohibit or restrict employers from hiring asylees and refugees; those laws treat asylees and refugees just like U.S. citizens.

    Under IT AR and EAR, "U.S. persons" working for U.S. companies can access exportr controlled items without authorization from the U.S. government. A "U.S. person" under IT AR and EAR, includes a U.S. citizen or national, a lawful permanent resident, a refugee, or an asylee. 22 C.F.R. § 120.62; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772.

    In contrast, a "foreign person"-anyone who is not a "U.S. person" under ITAR and EAR may need authorization from the federal government to access export-controlled items. 22 C.F.R. §§ 120.62 and 120.63; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772. For a "foreign person" employee to access export-controlled items, their employer must apply to the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce and obtain approval.

    SpaceX regularly conducts export compliance assessments, a process to check whether new and existing workers require authorization to access export-controlled items. During this process, new and existing workers identify their citizenship or immigration status and present documentation proving their citizenship or immigration status to show whether they are a "U.S. person" or "foreign person."

    Despite SpaceX's claims, IT AR and EAR do not contain employment or hiring restrictions. They do not require employers to limit jobs based on citizenship or immigration status. And they do not prohibit employers from hiring asylees and refugees. Thus, they do not create an exception to hiring discrimination under 8 U.S.C. § 1324b(a)(2)(C)
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,304
    kle4 said:

    Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/

    They love Trump and as a second or third choice, Ramaswamy, it is rather hard to get into their mindset.

    Haley seems to have done rather well out of it if Trump is looking for a VP.

    Scott appears to have made no impression at all based on that, whereas at least Christie and Hutchinson picked up some hate.
    After that performance, DeSantis ends up leading Trump in "considering voting for". (DeSantis increases from 63% to 67.5%, Trump drops from 66.2% to 61.4%.)

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Options
    StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,342

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    A banker is a man who gives you an umbrella when the sun is shining and demands it back as it begins to rain
  • Options
    sladeslade Posts: 1,970
    Lib Dem gain in Wight.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,079
    Andy_JS said:

    "Marcus Walker
    Is the Church of England giving up on Sunday worship?"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-church-of-england-giving-up-on-sunday-worship/

    There is nothing wrong with seeking out new worshippers and weekly services and allowing Christians to enjoy sport (unlike the 17th century Puritans did as Marcus says) but yes Sunday worship must remain at the core of the Church of England service
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,079
    Andy_JS said:

    The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

    Would be first win for a conservative party in the Anglosphere since Boris' win in 2019
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031

    Pulpstar said:

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    Under ITAR and other rules, employing non US citizens in a US rocket company is somewhere between impossible and a good way to end up in jail.
    Blatantly political case launched by Biden I think here tbh. If the 9th circuit finds against him he might reHQ in TX to be under the 5th circuit - SCOTUS might nix the 9th's judgement if they find against him though. I assume California is the location of jurisdiction.
    No - more one part of the government that doesn’t get the special rules that the space industry works under.

    It is very common, in the US space industry, for example to have to advertise a job as US citizens only. The penalties for disclosing information on launch systems to non-citizens include unlimited fines and/or decades in prison.

    It would be very easy to present the legal rules that make non-US citizen hiring pretty much impossible - with precedents all the way back to Loral.
    The lawsuit seems to be arguing that this has no bearing on hiring decisions because there is a process for non-US citizens to get authorisation from the government, and refugees are apparently classed as "US persons" anyway...

    https://www.justice.gov/media/1311656/dl?inline

    SpaceX officials have repeatedly said publicly that they can only hire U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents because of export control laws and regulations, like ITAR.

    But export control laws and regulations do not prohibit or restrict employers from hiring asylees and refugees; those laws treat asylees and refugees just like U.S. citizens.

    Under IT AR and EAR, "U.S. persons" working for U.S. companies can access exportr controlled items without authorization from the U.S. government. A "U.S. person" under IT AR and EAR, includes a U.S. citizen or national, a lawful permanent resident, a refugee, or an asylee. 22 C.F.R. § 120.62; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772.

    In contrast, a "foreign person"-anyone who is not a "U.S. person" under ITAR and EAR may need authorization from the federal government to access export-controlled items. 22 C.F.R. §§ 120.62 and 120.63; 15 C.F.R. pt. 772. For a "foreign person" employee to access export-controlled items, their employer must apply to the U.S. Department of State or the U.S. Department of Commerce and obtain approval.

    SpaceX regularly conducts export compliance assessments, a process to check whether new and existing workers require authorization to access export-controlled items. During this process, new and existing workers identify their citizenship or immigration status and present documentation proving their citizenship or immigration status to show whether they are a "U.S. person" or "foreign person."

    Despite SpaceX's claims, IT AR and EAR do not contain employment or hiring restrictions. They do not require employers to limit jobs based on citizenship or immigration status. And they do not prohibit employers from hiring asylees and refugees. Thus, they do not create an exception to hiring discrimination under 8 U.S.C. § 1324b(a)(2)(C)
    Except that the approval for export control led item access is limited to specifics. And quite often is refused.

    This can cause all kinds of fun. Your non-US citizen employee invents a new widget. Under ITAR this widget is the property of a US company and export controlled. Your employee (and your company) are now in the shit, since the employee wasn’t specifically approved for access to the widget they invented.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 119,079

    Apparently GOP supporters were impressed by Haley and DeSantis didn't look to them like the disaster he looked to me.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/republican-debate-august-poll/

    Trump sees a 5% decline in GOP voters considering backing him post debate, looks like he will have to be in the next one to avoid further decline.

    Haley gets the biggest post debate bounce followed by Burgum
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 16,319
    edited August 2023
    Chris said:

    The reason given by the CCRC for not proceeding is very strange. The comment was that there was "no certainty" that the other DNA found on the victim's clothing was "crime specific".

    That makes it sound as though they were asking the wrong question entirely. Certainty that someone else's DNA was crime-specific would have proved that Malkinson was certainly innocent (given that there was only one assailant). Obviously, reasonable doubt of guilt is the correct criterion.

    Depending on what they discovered, that conclusion might be reasonable. I think the bar is set quite high for a CCRC referral. The problem was they never bothered to investigate. If they had checked the DNA it would have matched to someone who was already on the DNA register with a criminal record. It would be hard for them in that case to determine it wasn't new and highly relevant evidence and therefore the case should be referred.
  • Options
    sladeslade Posts: 1,970
    slade said:

    Lib Dem gain in Wight.

    The Lib Dems went from 0% to 47.9%!
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 46,031
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
    In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”
  • Options
    sladeslade Posts: 1,970
    Lab gain in Dudley.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
    In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”
    If we're talking definitions:-

    HR - Human Remains

    Good HR people are rare and worth their weight in gold. Most are just the employment equivalent of spending time in purgatory.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    slade said:

    slade said:

    Lib Dem gain in Wight.

    The Lib Dems went from 0% to 47.9%!
    Classic Lib Dems. I've seen that happen rather awkwardly as paper candidates come out on top.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
    In my experience, some HR people have a bizarre tendency to think that their opinion is a legal ruling. Even if their idea directly contracts the law. “I’m an HR professional…”
    Perhaps others are like this too, though it seems amped up with HR professionals in my experience, but they can be very insistent on their own processes needing to be followed but incredibly blase about others' processes, or legal processes not directly connected with them, being followed.

    I prefer my rule followers to be consistent.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 94,341
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
    I can only speak to my own experience, and of people I know, but in and out of the NHS very little mention if any is usually made of these processes and requirements, probably for sake of a quiet life on the basis most of the time it won't (appear to) matter.

    Which means you are even more reliant on a few experienced and knowledgeable individuals for when it is necessary, but if you were listening to them the situation would not be as it is anyway.
  • Options

    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Certainly agree about the latter. Hardly a month goes by without a full-colour brochure from Barclays offering me someone else's money at usurious rates when a cursory glance at my account should convince them that I'm prepared to struggle on without it.
    My bank, Bank of Scotland, will one day try and sell me investments and pension advice, and the next day try and sell me a personal loan.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 29,879
    O/T

    "88 UK deaths linked to Canada 'poison seller'"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66609884
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    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    "88 UK deaths linked to Canada 'poison seller'"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66609884

    Canadian selling assisted suicide kits, by the look of it.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,031
    Nice to read a positive story from Cyclefree.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    It's actually worse than that.
    Enquiries regularly come out with general recommendations for reform - which are just as regularly ignored.

    Perhaps better aims would be for them to report in more a timely manner - often, by the time they report, it's many years on - and to have some mechanism to follow up in recommendations.
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    New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.


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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,924
    Andy_JS said:

    The New Zealand Labour Party is averaging 29% in the polls at the moment. They polled 50% at the last general election. That's quite a drop, even worse (in percentage terms) than the UK Tories are facing. The election is in 6 weeks' time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election

    Gardenwalker explained why on here the day before yesterday.

    I think more than one regular pb'er was taken in by Saint Jacinda at the time.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 57,924
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Excellent piece from Ms Cyclefree.

    One thing about these various Inquiries bothers me, though (well, more than one..). It's that they are too focused on the particular. One on the appalling Malkinson miscarriage of justice. Another on the appalling Post Office Horizon miscarriage of justice. If we are really going to 'learn lessons', shouldn't we be focusing on what these scandals have in common, which will no doubt apply to the next appalling miscarriage of justice, and the many less publicised ones?

    Similarly, the real lessons which should be learnt from the Letby case aren't really about a murderous staff member on a neo-natal ward, but about how the NHS handles whistleblowers. The Letby case is an extreme, but atypical, example of a wider dysfunction in investigating concerns. The lessons should focus on the wider issue.

    You are absolutely right.

    I see a lot of commonalities between these various scandals - not just with other NHS scandals but with police ones and City ones too. It is difficult enough to join up the lessons inside one organisation, though it is a very important part of what needs doing. But within government and and other public services? That should be one of those changes that ought to be made - to have someone / some team responsible for joining these dots and trying to do a read across not just in relation to why things have gone wrong but in how to put them right.

    For instance, there is much the police and the NHS could learn from finance. I could bore on about this for ages. But no-one at the top will think: maybe we could learn from what other sectors have been through.

    The whistleblowing aspect is particularly important. This is my day job. I have just written for one of my clients an article on this - and when published - happy to provide a link to anyone interested.

    Organisations do not really understand - or choose to understand - the human behaviours behind why staff are worried about raising concerns and why those at the top react in the way they do. Until they do they will have little success building structures/ processes that encourage people to do the right thing and stop or make it hard for them to do the wrong thing.

    The other key issue - especially in the NHS - is the absolute necessity of having an independent investigation team, independent of management, that staff could - because of its independence and professionalism - trust.

    Infuriating. Honestly, I know I am blowing my own trumpet but there is lots people like me and plenty of others could do to help, inform and teach these organisations.

    😠
    One thing which jumped out of the page when I was reading the reports on the Letby case was the response to her allegation that the consultants had been 'bullying' her by raising concerns about the number of unexplained deaths on her watch. That seems to have triggered a much bigger process than the suspicious deaths themselves , culminating in the bizarre farce of 'mediation'. How the hell could anyone mediate between her, and the doctors who with good cause, and rightly as it turned out, suspected her of being responsible for those deaths?

    And yet this is how the NHS works.

    It was a fatal (in every sense) confusion between the whistleblowing process and the grievance process. That is one reason why concerns raised should always be investigated separately and not by HR either - who are conflicted and often useless at investigations and who, in this case, did not understand the absolutely basic rule which is that you never ever retaliate or threaten to retaliate against a whistleblower, even if their concerns turn out to be unsubstantiated.

    The fact that NHS managers and the HR people in this hospital did not understand this absolutely basic point is appalling. And terrifying. Because if it happened there, there is every chance that the same basic errors are happening elsewhere within the NHS right now.
    Almost certainly, sadly.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 65,301

    New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.


    I see he lied about both his height and weight.

    215 lbs LOL.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 40,060
    My first thought on waking up and seeing Trump's mugshot is that he's going for a Zoolander look.
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    slade said:

    Lib Dem gain in Wight.

    That's what happens when you try to take the voters for a Ryde.
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    EabhalEabhal Posts: 7,044

    New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.


    That's a good mugshot. The merch sales are going to be incredible.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,800
    Eabhal said:

    New PB photo of choice for all Trump related threads.


    That's a good mugshot. The merch sales are going to be incredible.
    Several evolutionary biologists are also hurriedly recasting their theories to show that humans can evolve back into apes.

    Gives hope for the orangutan population.
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    TazTaz Posts: 12,394

    https://nypost.com/2023/08/24/elon-musks-spacex-sued-by-doj-over-asylees-refugees-hiring/

    The Biden administration sued Elon Musk-owned rocket and satellite company SpaceX on Thursday for allegedly discriminating against asylum seekers and refugees in hiring.

    “The lawsuit alleges that, from at least September 2018 to May 2022, SpaceX routinely discouraged asylees and refugees from applying and refused to hire or consider them, because of their citizenship status, in violation of the Immigration and Nationality Act,” the Justice Department said in a statement.

    A politically motivated attack on a company run by an African American immigrant.

    Not a good look !!!!
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    Sunak speaks for Scotland, Tories gain all the Glasgow seats next year?

    Poll shows most Scots back Sunak’s oil plans for the North Sea



    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/poll-shows-most-scots-back-sunak-s-plans-for-the-north-sea-q23c2f0n7
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    I see the Orange one is posting on Twitter.

    Not a good sign.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 68,800

    I see the Orange one is posting on Twitter.

    Not a good sign.

    It’s a very good sign. Too much of that and he can be locked up.
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    Sandpit said:

    Lawyers are the best

    Lawyers put Malkinson in prison for 17 years.
    Lawyers: people who build a maze outside your door then charge you a fortune to lead you through it.
    Very nice. I'll add my to collection of favorite definitions.

    Others I like include:

    Insurance Companies - bookmakers who don't pay out on winners
    Banks - Lenders and providers of finance to people and businesses that can prove they don't need it.
    Estate agents - people without the customer service skills and care of drug dealers

    Recruitment agents - people without the customer service skills and care of Estate agents
    Thank you.

    And of course I'd forgotten about the classic 'Management Consultants - who borrow your watch and then charge you for telling you the time'. [Do firms still use Management Consultants, or did people eventually wise up to their wheezes?]
    I'm making a very good living as a Management Consultant. To be fair the clients I am advising don't seem to know what a watch is, so I'm not robbing them as disguised.
This discussion has been closed.