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It’ll be hard for Sunak to hang on unless this changes – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,153
edited August 2023 in General
imageIt’ll be hard for Sunak to hang on unless this changes – politicalbetting.com

We need to remind ourselves that the general election is getting closer by the day and the amount of time that Sunak has to play with is getting smaller. The rate rises are going to hit a huge proportion of the population and many families will likely feel poorer as a result.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited August 2023
    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Bank rate unlikely to fall below 5% before Jan 2025.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972
    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    So Twitter ("X") it is, or maybe just nothing.

    Talking of different personas today I experienced the intriguing cultural borderland that is the white peak / dark peak dividing line in Derbyshire. We travelled West from the post-Brexit olde-England land of pies and crown green bowling that is the Derwent Valley into the White Peak heartland of Ashbourne, Thorpe and Dovedale. Still rural yet a different world. The pub we went to contained staff with nose rings and served things like brisket and gin-cured salmon. They even had kimchi. The fonts on the menus weren't in comic sans. A couple of old stone barns we passed had big black framed glass frontages.

    And in Dovedale itself, a true sociological oddity. Not sure if anyone's recently been to Dovedale (beautiful little valley owned by the National trust) but by some quirk of recent history it seems to have become a massive pilgrimage site for Muslim families, presumably from Manchester and Birmingham. Inspired I assume by "the Dovedale hike" which is an annual event run by a popular Islamic cleric who walks people through the valley while teaching and meditating on the Koran, or something along those lines. There is a sign at the front forbidding not only barbecues and camp fires, but also "shisha pipes". This makes for one of the most evocative evening walks imaginable. Ambling along by the babbling river in the early evening and passing large groups of picnicking families, women in hijabs and niqabs, men strolling confidently or overseeing the picnics with notably long beards on display, small boys and girls scrabbling up the limestone and dirtying their Shalwar Kameez, it was like being transported into some craggy sunlit pass in the Northwest Frontier or the Hindu Kush. I half expected to encounter Rory Stewart breezily strolling along with his dog. For a fascinating little insight into British Muslim culture on a day off I heartily recommend a trip to Dovedale.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580
    edited August 2023
    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres. If you want to reduce total kilometres, we are talking trains, buses etc.

    That's why for me at least, cycling is not so much of a carbon emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    So Twitter ("X") it is, or maybe just nothing.

    Talking of different personas today I experienced the intriguing cultural borderland that is the white peak / dark peak dividing line in Derbyshire. We travelled West from the post-Brexit olde-England land of pies and crown green bowling that is the Derwent Valley into the White Peak heartland of Ashbourne, Thorpe and Dovedale. Still rural yet a different world. The pub we went to contained staff with nose rings and served things like brisket and gin-cured salmon. They even had kimchi. The fonts on the menus weren't in comic sans. A couple of old stone barns we passed had big black framed glass frontages.

    And in Dovedale itself, a true sociological oddity. Not sure if anyone's recently been to Dovedale (beautiful little valley owned by the National trust) but by some quirk of recent history it seems to have become a massive pilgrimage site for Muslim families, presumably from Manchester and Birmingham. Inspired I assume by "the Dovedale hike" which is an annual event run by a popular Islamic cleric who walks people through the valley while teaching and meditating on the Koran, or something along those lines. There is a sign at the front forbidding not only barbecues and camp fires, but also "shisha pipes". This makes for one of the most evocative evening walks imaginable. Ambling along by the babbling river in the early evening and passing large groups of picnicking families, women in hijabs and niqabs, men strolling confidently or overseeing the picnics with notably long beards on display, small boys and girls scrabbling up the limestone and dirtying their Shalwar Kameez, it was like being transported into some craggy sunlit pass in the Northwest Frontier or the Hindu Kush. I half expected to encounter Rory Stewart breezily strolling along with his dog. For a fascinating little insight into British Muslim culture on a day off I heartily recommend a trip to Dovedale.

    I was hiking in Edale in May. It was quite a varied mix of people, but quite a lot of Muslims and East Europeans. A good sign of social integration was my thought.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    On Threads:

    Why swap Musk for Zuckerberg? Both are evil tossers who enable hate speech on their platforms to get clicks.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972
    Eabhal said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres. If you want to reduce total kilometres, we are talking trains, buses etc.

    That's why for me at least, cycling is not so much of a carbon emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    Yes this is a point often lost. Encouraging cycling, walking and clean vehicles in towns and cities is largely about tackling congestion, air quality and pedestrian safety. Tackling climate change is a very different thing, and the two get somewhat conflated.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Solly
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    FPT:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres. If you want to reduce total kilometres, we are talking trains, buses etc.

    That's why for me at least, cycling is not so much of a carbon emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    Yes this is a point often lost. Encouraging cycling, walking and clean vehicles in towns and cities is largely about tackling congestion, air quality and pedestrian safety. Tackling climate change is a very different thing, and the two get somewhat conflated.
    Ditto ULEZ, LTN and VED. All tackling different externalities.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    You mean, high intelest late give big erection to toly cole vote, surely?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972
    edited August 2023
    Foxy said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    So Twitter ("X") it is, or maybe just nothing.

    Talking of different personas today I experienced the intriguing cultural borderland that is the white peak / dark peak dividing line in Derbyshire. We travelled West from the post-Brexit olde-England land of pies and crown green bowling that is the Derwent Valley into the White Peak heartland of Ashbourne, Thorpe and Dovedale. Still rural yet a different world. The pub we went to contained staff with nose rings and served things like brisket and gin-cured salmon. They even had kimchi. The fonts on the menus weren't in comic sans. A couple of old stone barns we passed had big black framed glass frontages.

    And in Dovedale itself, a true sociological oddity. Not sure if anyone's recently been to Dovedale (beautiful little valley owned by the National trust) but by some quirk of recent history it seems to have become a massive pilgrimage site for Muslim families, presumably from Manchester and Birmingham. Inspired I assume by "the Dovedale hike" which is an annual event run by a popular Islamic cleric who walks people through the valley while teaching and meditating on the Koran, or something along those lines. There is a sign at the front forbidding not only barbecues and camp fires, but also "shisha pipes". This makes for one of the most evocative evening walks imaginable. Ambling along by the babbling river in the early evening and passing large groups of picnicking families, women in hijabs and niqabs, men strolling confidently or overseeing the picnics with notably long beards on display, small boys and girls scrabbling up the limestone and dirtying their Shalwar Kameez, it was like being transported into some craggy sunlit pass in the Northwest Frontier or the Hindu Kush. I half expected to encounter Rory Stewart breezily strolling along with his dog. For a fascinating little insight into British Muslim culture on a day off I heartily recommend a trip to Dovedale.

    I was hiking in Edale in May. It was quite a varied mix of people, but quite a lot of Muslims and East Europeans. A good sign of social integration was my thought.
    This was very different - not integration in the slightest but still very fascinating. At least 90% of visitors were muslim families. I saw 2 other groups there - a bunch of young white studenty types, and a black couple and child. This was a rural English equivalent of walking into a village of Brits in Dordogne or a German hamlet in Majorca.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    There is no other realistic way of travelling the world than by air, beyond 600 mile trips. Ergo the key is to develop zero carbon flights. The idea that we should stop flying is unrealistic. But, how do we incentivise the development of clean aviation?
    Taxation is a good start. Same as was done for cars.

    Boosting aviation fuel efficiency is a first step before you reach zero fuel.

    Currently I believe [correct me if I'm wrong] we levy a fixed fee per traveller as taxation, regardless of fuel efficiency of the flight, and regardless of the number of the seats on the flight.

    Thus a hypothetical flight that flies transatlantic 100 people emitting 2000 kg of CO2 pays half the taxation of a tranatlantic flight that carries 200 people while emitting 500kg of CO2.

    Despite the fact that the former emits 8x the CO2 per passenger of the latter.

    If you want to tackle an externality, you tax the externality, not something unrelated to the externality.

    If an airline upgrades its fleet to more fuel efficient vehicles, it should see a reduction in its taxes, just as a fleet of vehicles being upgraded to emit fewer emissions does.

    This will encourage iterations of more efficient vehicles, combined with ultimately an encouragement to reach zero emissions. Iteration works, R&D works, with the right incentives.
    Agree with you!
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,964
    edited August 2023
    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Yes, just a teensy weensy bit racist by this prat of a poster
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650
    Trump in court and PB focused on car noise. Strange world.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,650
    Anyone else enjoy a bit of Schadenfreude at Germany crashing out of the Women's World Cup?

    Thought so.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    I think particulates from tyres are an issue? Not an expert on this.

    I think pedestrian safety is closely related to the speed and weight of cars - physics, innit.

    Congestion - this is the one where you really struggle to understand concepts like *space* and *demand*.

    For cycling - I missed out reducing obesity and then the most obvious- it's so cheap! That's more money for beer. Or the saving pot for the Tesla.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,007
    Watching the ITV News, Greenpeace campaigning to import oil and gas from despots, rather than produce it here.

    It is demand that needs to be cut, not UK production.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Yes, just a teensy weensy bit racist by this prat of a poster
    Bloke who claims to be in "the Balkans" detects racism shock. Fuzzy-wuzzies getting you down?

    Not that I don't sympathise, but that's Johnny Foreigner for you.

    The Balkans. Jesus Christ.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Yes, just a teensy weensy bit racist by this prat of a poster
    Bloke who claims to be in "the Balkans" detects racism shock. Fuzzy-wuzzies getting you down?

    Not that I don't sympathise, but that's Johnny Foreigner for you.

    The Balkans. Jesus Christ.
    Knobend.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

  • rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,959
    ...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,585
    edited August 2023

    Anyone else enjoy a bit of Schadenfreude at Germany crashing out of the Women's World Cup?

    Thought so.

    Out like a Somalian sprinter:

    https://twitter.com/JamaicaLivenews/status/1686946531843145728?t=N8XZgtRN7Tu3XGhqVMRGgQ&s=19
  • TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855
    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    I do love you guys, the discussion about getting in to your own car to drive a mile to buy a pint of milk, and in parallel the casual assumption that we just have to keep the world that way for everybody.

    In Ethiopia there's children who stand by the road shouting Eylan! Eylan! as you drive past. Turns out this means Highland which is the local bottled water brand, and they are asking you to throw empty plastic water bottles out to them. And these are roads where you can drive all day and not see another vehicle. So these kids are investing a whole (potentially school, if there were any) day in the chance of an empty water bottle.

    But whatever, you do the whole private vs first class commercial thing.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    One is possible, one is not (unless you want to knock down lots of buildings). 71% of all journeys are under 5 miles. The cost-effective thing is to get people either using public transport, walking, or cycling (in descending order).
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653
    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Yes, just a teensy weensy bit racist by this prat of a poster
    Bloke who claims to be in "the Balkans" detects racism shock. Fuzzy-wuzzies getting you down?

    Not that I don't sympathise, but that's Johnny Foreigner for you.

    The Balkans. Jesus Christ.
    Talking Balkans
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022
    Foxy said:

    On Threads:

    Why swap Musk for Zuckerberg? Both are evil tossers who enable hate speech on their platforms to get clicks.

    ....which is why they are hundred-billionaires and I live a flat worth X, where X ∈ (110K, 140K)

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    As am I. And given my ward, my city and my country voted for more cycling and public transport, I'm sure you will respect that :)

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,642
    It bears repeating that Trump’s advisers are blunt privately that their goal is for Trump to win the election in part so that the cases can be disappeared by the Trump Justice Department.

    NY Times
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,007
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    He's Donald Ducked.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,972

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
  • Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Miklosvar said:

    Foxy said:

    Miklosvar said:

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    Confucius say, high intelest late give big election to toly cole vote.
    And it's off to the diversity and inclusion re-education camp for you...
    Yes, just a teensy weensy bit racist by this prat of a poster
    Bloke who claims to be in "the Balkans" detects racism shock. Fuzzy-wuzzies getting you down?

    Not that I don't sympathise, but that's Johnny Foreigner for you.

    The Balkans. Jesus Christ.
    Knobend.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

    Well, yes, also

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

    so what point are you making?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakı

    for that matter. Enjoy x
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,959
    viewcode said:

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.

    But that's just PB

    Everybody is allowed to say what they think about pineapple because of free speech, and prevented from saying the truth about radiohead because of hate speech
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580
    edited August 2023
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    BR is entirely opposed to consultations and planning restrictions though. So he can have no complaints if cities like Edinburgh take their democratic mandate and spam cycle lanes everywhere.
  • Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    One is possible, one is not (unless you want to knock down lots of buildings). 71% of all journeys are under 5 miles. The cost-effective thing is to get people either using public transport, walking, or cycling (in descending order).
    Both are possible. Cars make up the majority of journeys.

    All you need to do is build wide enough to have sufficient road capacity, and sufficient parking capacity, for your population.

    In towns all over our country, that is exactly what is done. 👍

    That you don't want that, does not make it impossible.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
    Agree again. Going to need some good legislation, a bit like storage heaters.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,964
    edited August 2023
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,580

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
    Or you could save loads of money and just implement a decent bus service and some segregated cycle lanes.

    We shall let the electorate decide.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052
    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    I do love you guys, the discussion about getting in to your own car to drive a mile to buy a pint of milk, and in parallel the casual assumption that we just have to keep the world that way for everybody.

    In Ethiopia there's children who stand by the road shouting Eylan! Eylan! as you drive past. Turns out this means Highland which is the local bottled water brand, and they are asking you to throw empty plastic water bottles out to them. And these are roads where you can drive all day and not see another vehicle. So these kids are investing a whole (potentially school, if there were any) day in the chance of an empty water bottle.

    But whatever, you do the whole private vs first class commercial thing.
    "The police shouldn't bother arresting rapists when there are murderers they haven't yet caught."

    Why is so much of PB is in thrall to the Silver Bullet Fallacy?

    (Or, to put it another way, you used to be able to say that about kids by the side of the street in much of Asia. But now they all have smart phones.)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,653
    CONDITIONS OF TRUMP RELEASE—

    - Trump must not violate federal or state law.
    - Trump must appear in court as directed and must sign an appearance bond.
    - Trump must not communicate with anyone he knows to be a witness, except through his lawyers or in the presence of his lawyers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,007

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
    There is no greater distributed form of storage than the natural gas network. Convert it to hydrogen, add some salt caverns and all the surplus renewables can be used to create electrolytic hydrogen, which can be stored for use in periods of peak demand - both for power generation and for heating our homes.

    BTW, I am not denying that battery storage is part of the solution, including car batteries. Use your car to boil the kettle when you get home from work, and all that.
  • Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    BR is entirely opposed to consultations and planning restrictions though. So he can have no complaints if cities like Edinburgh take their democratic mandate and spam cycle lanes everywhere.
    So long as that is the solution for Edinburgh and Edinburgh alone, then frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

    What I object to is people in cities wanting their solutions imposed across the entire country. Including towns like mine. Politicians or campaigners who are anti-car, nationwide.

    If people who want compact city living riding a bike live in cities, and people who want distributed suburban driving live in towns, and we all get our way, then that is completely fine.

    The problem is trying to force one way of living on others. I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make other choices.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a politician in possession of a good poll, must be in want of a election.

    It's a while since I had a good poll...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,515
    edited August 2023
    FPT
    TimS said:

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    So Twitter ("X") it is, or maybe just nothing.

    Talking of different personas today I experienced the intriguing cultural borderland that is the white peak / dark peak dividing line in Derbyshire. We travelled West from the post-Brexit olde-England land of pies and crown green bowling that is the Derwent Valley into the White Peak heartland of Ashbourne, Thorpe and Dovedale. Still rural yet a different world. The pub we went to contained staff with nose rings and served things like brisket and gin-cured salmon. They even had kimchi. The fonts on the menus weren't in comic sans. A couple of old stone barns we passed had big black framed glass frontages.

    And in Dovedale itself, a true sociological oddity. Not sure if anyone's recently been to Dovedale (beautiful little valley owned by the National trust) but by some quirk of recent history it seems to have become a massive pilgrimage site for Muslim families, presumably from Manchester and Birmingham. Inspired I assume by "the Dovedale hike" which is an annual event run by a popular Islamic cleric who walks people through the valley while teaching and meditating on the Koran, or something along those lines. There is a sign at the front forbidding not only barbecues and camp fires, but also "shisha pipes". This makes for one of the most evocative evening walks imaginable. Ambling along by the babbling river in the early evening and passing large groups of picnicking families, women in hijabs and niqabs, men strolling confidently or overseeing the picnics with notably long beards on display, small boys and girls scrabbling up the limestone and dirtying their Shalwar Kameez, it was like being transported into some craggy sunlit pass in the Northwest Frontier or the Hindu Kush. I half expected to encounter Rory Stewart breezily strolling along with his dog. For a fascinating little insight into British Muslim culture on a day off I heartily recommend a trip to Dovedale.

    I live relatively close to Dovedale and have noticed the same things.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052
    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.

    But that's just PB

    Everybody is allowed to say what they think about pineapple because of free speech, and prevented from saying the truth about radiohead because of hate speech
    People are allowed to say whatever they want about Radiohead, so long as it is accurate.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the sole judge of the accuracy of any statement with regards to Radiohead and their music.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,749
    Though if the interest rate rises do reduce inflation further and that in turn enables rates to fall back, longer term that will help Sunak
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,007

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
    And demolish everything on one side of the High Street in order to create the space. Time for bed, I think.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,749
    edited August 2023
    'About half of Republicans would not vote for Donald Trump if he were convicted of a felony, a sign of the severe risks his legal problems pose for his 2024 U.S. presidential bid, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll that closed on Thursday...The two-day Reuters/Ipsos poll asked respondents if they would vote for Trump for president next year if he were "convicted of a felony crime by a jury. Among Republicans, 45% said they would not vote for him, more than the 35% who said they would. The rest said they didn't know.'

    'Asked if they would vote for Trump if he were "currently serving time in prison," 52% of Republicans said they would not, compared to 28% who said they would.'
    https://www.reuters.com/legal/about-half-us-republicans-could-spurn-trump-if-he-is-convicted-reutersipsos-poll-2023-08-03/
  • Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
    Or you could save loads of money and just implement a decent bus service and some segregated cycle lanes.

    We shall let the electorate decide.
    How is segregated cycle lanes different to what I said? I said a physical barrier (ie segregation).

    Cars in the car lane, cycles in the cycle lane. Cyclists are safe, cars are safe, nobody loses.

    And just as a car driving majority shouldn't deny cyclists the right to ride in safety, nor should cyclists deny drivers the right to drive. Choice is about personal choice, not the tyranny of a majority.

    I don't like the electorate imposing choices on anyone. That is deeply illiberal. The state should facilitate all choices, and let the individual, not the electorate, decide.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,955
    Why is it that the BBC almost only ever interview Republicans when reporting in US politics ?
    The R4 report on the Trump indictment was utterly risible.
  • TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
    And demolish everything on one side of the High Street in order to create the space. Time for bed, I think.
    If you're building new towns, as I suggested, then what pray tell is being demolished? Talking about new roads, on newly developed land, for new towns. Or expansions to towns.

    For many [not all] existing towns, building bypasses etc to reduce demand on the High Street road, can enable narrower high streets and allow segregated cycle lanes with narrower driving lanes. If there is sufficient space to do that.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,763
    Related to nothing much apart from a vague feeling of 'here we are again' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuwfsS5-iM8

    " This Mortal Coil - "Song to the Siren" - live "
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,515
    O/T

    Watching Close Encounter on BBC4. I thought one of the characters said "the train was just puffing out" but the subtitles said "pulling out". Checked the transcript on the internet and it says that it is indeed "puffing out". Why can't the people writing the subtitles make sure they get it right? Took me about 10 seconds to check it.

    https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=955&t=42100
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022

    ...I don't like the electorate imposing choices on anyone. That is deeply illiberal. The state should facilitate all choices, and let the individual, not the electorate, decide...

    An admirable stance, if that is truly what you believe. But you are only human. How long do you think it will be before you contradict yourself? Genuine question.

  • MiklosvarMiklosvar Posts: 1,855

    Eabhal said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    For me things like air pollution, noise pollution, pedestrian deaths, congestion are important too.
    For me they matter too, I just differ on the proposed solutions.

    Air & noise pollution - electric vehicles resolve these, just as much as emissions.

    The idea electric vehicles cause air pollution is a lie spread by climate change denialists who want to preserve ICE technology.
    Electric cars are so quiet they have a deliberately added noise in order to maintain road safety, so you don't get the revving loud noises of ICE technology.

    Pedestrian deaths need to be, and are, improved by better road safety awareness. Both for pedestrians and for drivers.

    Congestion is a matter of population demand exceeding capacity. Increasing capacity fixes this.

    If population growth occurs, demand goes up, so capacity supply needs to go up accordingly.
    On congestion, I think this is where we get into aesthetics, and people should be honest about this.

    By which I mean there’s a segment of society that would like British towns and cities to be more like some utopian vision of Northern Europe. Pedestrian streets, bikes, trams, svelte young townspeople pottering along the cycle lane with philosophy books in their baskets.

    And there is another segment that dreams of a Britain more like Florida or Texas. Wide open freeways, people cruising in big wide sedans and pulling up at the barbecue joint for two pounds of ribs and a bud light.

    These are aesthetic choices but they get dressed up in moral codes.
    Apart from despising Bud Light and thinking a real beer is definitely better, yes you're right.

    It is choice, not moral codes.

    I am pro-choice. I respect others rights to make their choices, I just ask that they respect my choice to make mine.
    This is one of those tricky situations where others’ choices affect yours though, and vice versa. That’s why it’s a problem.

    To have that Northern European utopia you need to impinge on motorists’ rights to drive anywhere they want anytime. To have the American automotive dream you need to encroach on space for pedestrians and cyclists.

    Or you need extremely wide boulevards, which we don’t really do in Britain.

    This is what makes the topic so toxic. Same as nimbys vs house builders: the right to a nice view vs the right to afford a house. Etc
    Build wide boulevards, with a physical barrier between cars and the cycle path (not dash of paint). Problem solved.

    Cyclists can cycle, drivers can drive, pedestrians can walk, and everyone has their choice respected.

    That it wasn't done in the past in Britain is not a reason it can't be done in the future. Indeed it increasingly is done.

    Combine new wider roads, with new houses, and new towns, and you solve both our housing problem, and our transportation problems. Everybody wins.
    Or you could save loads of money and just implement a decent bus service and some segregated cycle lanes.

    We shall let the electorate decide.
    How is segregated cycle lanes different to what I said? I said a physical barrier (ie segregation).

    Cars in the car lane, cycles in the cycle lane. Cyclists are safe, cars are safe, nobody loses.

    And just as a car driving majority shouldn't deny cyclists the right to ride in safety, nor should cyclists deny drivers the right to drive. Choice is about personal choice, not the tyranny of a majority.

    I don't like the electorate imposing choices on anyone. That is deeply illiberal. The state should facilitate all choices, and let the individual, not the electorate, decide.
    No longer possible. We are an ants nest now, and it's up to the hive. Libertarian wise, the last winnable victory was gay rights, which we won. Hurrah, but that was high water mark.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    HYUFD said:

    Though if the interest rate rises do reduce inflation further and that in turn enables rates to fall back, longer term that will help Sunak

    Inflation is likely to fall to around 5% at end 2023. Squeezing it back to the long term target of 2% will be much harder though which is why interest rates will stay relatively high for longer.
  • Anyone else enjoy a bit of Schadenfreude at Germany crashing out of the Women's World Cup?

    Thought so.

    It is remarkable that Morocco qualify after Germany beat them 6-0.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    edited August 2023
    HYUFD said:

    Though if the interest rate rises do reduce inflation further and that in turn enables rates to fall back, longer term that will help Sunak

    Cant speak for anyone else but my circa. £400 per month increase in mortgage costs, wiping out almost all my disposable income, dwarfs any reduction in the rate of inflation of pretty much everything else.

    That won’t change this side of the next GE.
  • The King & Queen's Desert Hero is now a best-priced 8/1 for the St Leger after winning today's Gordon Stakes at Glorious Goodwood. The St Leger is our oldest classic horserace, first run in 1776, an otherwise unremarkable year.
  • Those who know - how seriously should we take these numbers?

    While the Bank is not expecting a recession and today upgraded its economic growth forecasts for this year, it also cut them for 2024 and 2025, when it anticipates more feeble growth (Ben Martin writes).

    It now expects gross domestic product to expand by 0.5 per cent in 2023, up from its May forecast of 0.25 per cent.

    Next year GDP is forecast to grow by 0.5 per cent, down from the Bank’s previous forecast of 0.75 per cent. In 2025 growth is forecast to slow to 0.25 per cent, compared with the 0.75 per cent expected in May.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dbedcf08-31c9-11ee-b04c-88a034803f06?shareToken=dd6925d3bb86d6c6135b350517d5db69

    They're not enough to run a "Britain is booming/Don't let Labour blow it" campaign, are they?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,523
    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,323
    edited August 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.

    But that's just PB

    Everybody is allowed to say what they think about pineapple because of free speech, and prevented from saying the truth about radiohead because of hate speech
    People are allowed to say whatever they want about Radiohead, so long as it is accurate.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the sole judge of the accuracy of any statement with regards to Radiohead and their music.
    Radiohead something something something music...

    For the benefit of doubt I have real work to do tomorrow so....
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,515
    FPT

    The answer to the cricket trivia question is that 23rd December 1981 was the day when Geoff Boycott became number one in the list of most test match runs, overtaking Garfield Sobers.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.

    But that's just PB

    Everybody is allowed to say what they think about pineapple because of free speech, and prevented from saying the truth about radiohead because of hate speech
    People are allowed to say whatever they want about Radiohead, so long as it is accurate.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the sole judge of the accuracy of any statement with regards to Radiohead and their music.
    OK, Computer.
  • HYUFD said:

    Though if the interest rate rises do reduce inflation further and that in turn enables rates to fall back, longer term that will help Sunak

    Sunak doesn't have a "longer term". It is 17 months at max.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,515
    Free speech on PB means we can say 2001 A Space Odyssey is one of the best films of all time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    viewcode said:

    I shall found a new social media site, "PB Social Truth", where I guarantee that everybody will be allowed to say Y because of free speech, and prevented from saying Z because of hate speech, whilst setting Y and Z to whatever the fashionable nostrums of the day are. Everybody will love me and say I am wise, while I stab my own hand with a fork and smile at the baying mob.

    But that's just PB

    Everybody is allowed to say what they think about pineapple because of free speech, and prevented from saying the truth about radiohead because of hate speech
    People are allowed to say whatever they want about Radiohead, so long as it is accurate.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the sole judge of the accuracy of any statement with regards to Radiohead and their music.
    Admitting to never having heard a single song of theirs is ok? Asking for a friend.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 732
    Andy_JS said:

    Free speech on PB means we can say 2001 A Space Odyssey is one of the best films of all time.

    But is it a Christmas movie?
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    One thing to remember about juries in the US: They differ widely from area to area. Two of the worst areas -- for a Republican -- are DC and New York City.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052
    Andy_JS said:

    Free speech on PB means we can say 2001 A Space Odyssey is one of the best films of all time.

    Yes, you free to say that.

    But whatever you do, don't post it. Because that would lead me to the conclusion that you are an idiot.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    Trump in court and PB focused on car noise. Strange world.

    Trump fatigue. Once the excitement of indictments pass everyone expects it'll be mid 2024 before anything happens on the trial front, and so it's 6-10 months more of his 'rivals' tonguing up to him and clips of MAGA supporters competing to see how much they can support him, whilst Democrats bite their fingernails and hope Biden maintains his mental and physical capacity.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
    There is no greater distributed form of storage than the natural gas network. Convert it to hydrogen, add some salt caverns and all the surplus renewables can be used to create electrolytic hydrogen, which can be stored for use in periods of peak demand - both for power generation and for heating our homes.

    BTW, I am not denying that battery storage is part of the solution, including car batteries. Use your car to boil the kettle when you get home from work, and all that.
    Sadly the natural gas network is utterly unsuited for storing or transporting hydrogen. You would lose vast amounts of hydrogen in leaks and probably vast numbers of people in domestic explosions. It is not a viable alternative.
    Agreed. Your point is not emphasised enough, and is certainly not understood enough. :(

    I am biting my lip with frustration at the fact that we are jumping into options like heat pumps and hydrogen without any thoughts to the expense and logistics, even when those logistics have obvious difficulties and the expenses are obviously large.
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,998
    FPT:
    Dr. Foxy said: "Countries need to be helped to skip the polluting phase of growth. Indeed many less developed counties are ideal for solar power."

    I agree with that -- which is why I was so disturbed by the conclusions in this WaPo article: "About 4,000 solar mini-grids have been installed in India, of which 3,300 are government financed and owned, according to information collected early this year by Smart Power India, a subsidiary of the Rockefeller Foundation, and provided to The Washington Post. Only 5 percent of the government grids are operational, the group found.
    . . .
    A team of Dutch researchers reported in 2017 that in a sample of 29 solar systems in sub-Saharan Africa, only three were fully working. “The reasons cited for failure always point to the same challenges: an absence of local maintenance expertise and a lack of acceptance,” researchers said in an article published by the Conversation.

    An Indian solar expert, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share closed-door conversations, said that the Ugandan government is seeking international help because 80 percent of its 12,000 local solar connections in health-care centers are out of service. Journalistic reports from Nigeria depict a similar situation."
    source$: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/31/india-solar-energy/

    I am enough of an optimist to believe these problems should be solved -- and can be in many less developed countries, but I think we -- and they -- are going to have to look harder at what happens before and after the installations.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,646
    edited August 2023

    The King & Queen's Desert Hero is now a best-priced 8/1 for the St Leger after winning today's Gordon Stakes at Glorious Goodwood. The St Leger is our oldest classic horserace, first run in 1776, an otherwise unremarkable year.

    I usually watch the Leger from the rails somewhere given it isn't too far to get to by bicycle (ha!).

    The Doncaster Cup run the day before is older still although technically not a classic.

    I got buzzed by an independent 'live feed' drone last time out and followed it to the launch point on a bit of rough ground nearby. It was a 10k professional job, so obviously the 2 seconds that they get ahead of the official TV coverage is worth their while somehow. Not entirely sure the operator had filled in the required risk assessment...
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Watching Close Encounter on BBC4. I thought one of the characters said "the train was just puffing out" but the subtitles said "pulling out". Checked the transcript on the internet and it says that it is indeed "puffing out". Why can't the people writing the subtitles make sure they get it right? Took me about 10 seconds to check it.

    https://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=955&t=42100

    Brief Encounter, I think. In Close Encounters, it's an alien spaceship that puffs out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
    I suppose on a casual look I'm not quite sure what Zuckerberg's goals are, as a plutocrat. Bezos wants everything to be sold through his platforms and to make human beings work like automatons, Musk wants to dominate enough of cars and the internet so he can play with his rockets unimpeded whilst trolling people online, and Zuckerberg...something something the metaverse?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    NHS England commissions gender incongruence and dysphoria services and the purpose of this consultation is to seek views on a proposed interim clinical policy on puberty suppressing hormones (sometimes referred to as ‘puberty blockers’ or ‘hormone blockers’) for children and adolescents who have gender incongruence or dysphoria.

    The policy proposition is that puberty suppressing hormones are not recommended to be available as a routine commissioning option for the treatment of children and adolescents who have gender incongruence or dysphoria.


    https://www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/puberty-suppressing-hormones/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999
    edited August 2023

    Those who know - how seriously should we take these numbers?

    While the Bank is not expecting a recession and today upgraded its economic growth forecasts for this year, it also cut them for 2024 and 2025, when it anticipates more feeble growth (Ben Martin writes).

    It now expects gross domestic product to expand by 0.5 per cent in 2023, up from its May forecast of 0.25 per cent.

    Next year GDP is forecast to grow by 0.5 per cent, down from the Bank’s previous forecast of 0.75 per cent. In 2025 growth is forecast to slow to 0.25 per cent, compared with the 0.75 per cent expected in May.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dbedcf08-31c9-11ee-b04c-88a034803f06?shareToken=dd6925d3bb86d6c6135b350517d5db69

    They're not enough to run a "Britain is booming/Don't let Labour blow it" campaign, are they?

    Japanese growth rates but with added immigration and crapper services* the campaign slogan?

    *actually I don't know how services are in Japan.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    NHS England commissions gender incongruence and dysphoria services and the purpose of this consultation is to seek views on a proposed interim clinical policy on puberty suppressing hormones (sometimes referred to as ‘puberty blockers’ or ‘hormone blockers’) for children and adolescents who have gender incongruence or dysphoria.

    The policy proposition is that puberty suppressing hormones are not recommended to be available as a routine commissioning option for the treatment of children and adolescents who have gender incongruence or dysphoria.


    https://www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/puberty-suppressing-hormones/

    Sounds very sensible.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,523
    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
    I suppose on a casual look I'm not quite sure what Zuckerberg's goals are, as a plutocrat. Bezos wants everything to be sold through his platforms and to make human beings work like automatons, Musk wants to dominate enough of cars and the internet so he can play with his rockets unimpeded whilst trolling people online, and Zuckerberg...something something the metaverse?
    He wants to connect everyone and make the world a better place by breaking down our facades. :smile:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052
    viewcode said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
    There is no greater distributed form of storage than the natural gas network. Convert it to hydrogen, add some salt caverns and all the surplus renewables can be used to create electrolytic hydrogen, which can be stored for use in periods of peak demand - both for power generation and for heating our homes.

    BTW, I am not denying that battery storage is part of the solution, including car batteries. Use your car to boil the kettle when you get home from work, and all that.
    Sadly the natural gas network is utterly unsuited for storing or transporting hydrogen. You would lose vast amounts of hydrogen in leaks and probably vast numbers of people in domestic explosions. It is not a viable alternative.
    Agreed. Your point is not emphasised enough, and is certainly not understood enough. :(

    I am biting my lip with frustration at the fact that we are jumping into options like heat pumps and hydrogen without any thoughts to the expense and logistics, even when those logistics have obvious difficulties and the expenses are obviously large.
    Heat pumps, for those with well insulated homes, are usually pretty efficient. And they also cool in summer

    What's your beef with them?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,052

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
    I suppose on a casual look I'm not quite sure what Zuckerberg's goals are, as a plutocrat. Bezos wants everything to be sold through his platforms and to make human beings work like automatons, Musk wants to dominate enough of cars and the internet so he can play with his rockets unimpeded whilst trolling people online, and Zuckerberg...something something the metaverse?
    He wants to connect everyone and make the world a better place by breaking down our facades. :smile:
    Fuck.

    That sounds awful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
    I suppose on a casual look I'm not quite sure what Zuckerberg's goals are, as a plutocrat. Bezos wants everything to be sold through his platforms and to make human beings work like automatons, Musk wants to dominate enough of cars and the internet so he can play with his rockets unimpeded whilst trolling people online, and Zuckerberg...something something the metaverse?
    He wants to connect everyone and make the world a better place by breaking down our facades. :smile:
    Gods, what a nightmare that sounds!
  • kle4 said:

    TimS said:

    FPT

    The Instagram thing was definitely what did for Threads. My Instagram persona (well the two of them, the vineyard and the French barn conversion) are completely separate from my 2 Twitter personas or indeed my Linkedin or PB ones. My vineyard twitter is a different style and voice to my vineyard Insta. Zuckerberg should have understand that people adopt different selves for different platforms.

    This has long been Zuckerberg's blind spot. He's always looking for a way to prevent people having different personas.
    I suppose on a casual look I'm not quite sure what Zuckerberg's goals are, as a plutocrat. Bezos wants everything to be sold through his platforms and to make human beings work like automatons, Musk wants to dominate enough of cars and the internet so he can play with his rockets unimpeded whilst trolling people online, and Zuckerberg...something something the metaverse?
    He wants to know everything about everyone so he can sell that information to those engaged in targeted marketing.

    Separated personas gets in the way of that.
  • The King & Queen's Desert Hero is now a best-priced 8/1 for the St Leger after winning today's Gordon Stakes at Glorious Goodwood. The St Leger is our oldest classic horserace, first run in 1776, an otherwise unremarkable year.

    I usually watch the Leger from the rails somewhere given it isn't too far to get to by bicycle (ha!).

    The Doncaster Cup run the day before is older still although technically not a classic.

    I got buzzed by an independent 'live feed' drone last time out and followed it to the launch point on a bit of rough ground nearby. It was a 10k professional job, so obviously the 2 seconds that they get ahead of the official TV coverage is worth their while somehow. Not entirely sure the operator had filled in the required risk assessment...
    Yes, the drones are used for betting in-running (ie during the race itself). Even a small time advantage over other punters can be crucial, and lucrative.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,646
    edited August 2023

    The King & Queen's Desert Hero is now a best-priced 8/1 for the St Leger after winning today's Gordon Stakes at Glorious Goodwood. The St Leger is our oldest classic horserace, first run in 1776, an otherwise unremarkable year.

    I usually watch the Leger from the rails somewhere given it isn't too far to get to by bicycle (ha!).

    The Doncaster Cup run the day before is older still although technically not a classic.

    I got buzzed by an independent 'live feed' drone last time out and followed it to the launch point on a bit of rough ground nearby. It was a 10k professional job, so obviously the 2 seconds that they get ahead of the official TV coverage is worth their while somehow. Not entirely sure the operator had filled in the required risk assessment...
    Yes, the drones are used for betting in-running (ie during the race itself). Even a small time advantage over other punters can be crucial, and lucrative.
    Who do they bet against in-running? The bookies, or other punters? [Same thing in the long run I suppose]

    Seems like a bad market to be in if you aren't one of the insiders.

    I'm not in that game but you can normally judge quite a lot standing by the stalls at the start of a race. I'm surprised more don't do it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022
    edited August 2023
    rcs1000 said:

    viewcode said:

    Sadly the natural gas network is utterly unsuited for storing or transporting hydrogen. You would lose vast amounts of hydrogen in leaks and probably vast numbers of people in domestic explosions. It is not a viable alternative.

    Agreed. Your point is not emphasised enough, and is certainly not understood enough. :(

    I am biting my lip with frustration at the fact that we are jumping into options like heat pumps and hydrogen without any thoughts to the expense and logistics, even when those logistics have obvious difficulties and the expenses are obviously large.
    Heat pumps, for those with well insulated homes, are usually pretty efficient. And they also cool in summer

    What's your beef with them?
    I went thru this at some length last time, so I'll give you the TL:DR

    In general
    • i) they're too expensive
    • ii) they're not suitable in existing leasehold properties and/or flats, especially for those above the ground floor
    • iii) I don't like the element of compulsion
    Other people advanced arguments saying they were inefficient/inadequate: I agree with those arguments but they do not constitute my beef.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,022

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Eabhal said:

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.

    .

    Eabhal said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Miklosvar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What if it's not possible to increase the standard of living of 8 billion people while reducing the global impact of humanity on the environment?

    It is.

    Don't underestimate human ingenuity. The one thing worse than Luddites is Malthusians.
    How many more cars than today are we talking about? How many more flights? How much more meat will be consumed? How much more food will we have to take out of the oceans?
    Thomas Malthus, is that you?

    The past fifty years have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of people living developed world lifestyles. More people eat well. More people survive childbirth.

    Politics excepted, the world has never been in better shape. We now have the technology to provide *all* of humanity's needs from renewable sources. We have battery technology. We can keep homes warm or cold.

    We've even solved the problem of the world's population growing out of control.

    In time, we'll solve the long-distance travel problem. And you know what: maybe it'll be more by hyperloop than by planes. And that's great! Whatever works. Maybe it'll be by fanprops. Maybe synthetic fuel. Maybe battery powered planes.

    The challenges the world faces are not from real emergencies - absent places like Ukraine - but an unwillingness to listen to the concerns of, and empathize with, our fellow human beings.
    Microbe in laboratory jar, population doubling every day, on day when jar is at 50% capacity:

    The past fifty doublings have seen an unprecedented increase in the number of microbes living developed laboratory jar lifestyles.
    Sure.

    But here's the thing. We're not running out of resources!

    In fact, quite the opposite. We're successfully moving away from burning shit to power our lives, and moving to capturing solar energy through wind turbines and panels. How insanely great is that?

    We've already - in the UK - stopped burning coal. And the cost of solar and wind and batteries is only going in one direction. So we'll soon stop burning gas. And our petrol usage will shrink.

    Why aren't people saying "this is amazing!"

    Instead they are claiming things are worse, when they are obviously massively better than they have been.
    It's weird because we have already fixed the problem. We just need to implement it against a little political opposition. It's lung cancer and smoking, round two.

    Transport is the last big chunk of carbon emissions where we haven't made much progress, and we are already well on the way to electric cars, electric buses, trams, electrification of trains and - dare I say it - cycling for shorter journeys.

    There is a really good OBR report on this: https://obr.uk/docs/dlm_uploads/Emissions-working-paper.pdf


    You're completely right for once, electric cars and electric buses and electric trains etc are the solution. Combined with clean electricity they are zero carbon, so they are the solution. The sole solution.

    Cycling of course is fun, so throw that in the mix if you want to, for recreational purposes, but not as a relevant solution to the climate since it represents not even a significant percentage of transportation on any country in the planet, even after more than half a century of extremely heavily promoting it in the likes of the Netherlands its still an almost inconsequential sub-10% of km travelled. And we need to be making 100% of travel clean, not below 10% of travel.

    But electric cars? Yes, they eliminate the climate problem in its entirety and eliminate any reason to be concerned about driving. Problem is solved, you are completely right. 👍

    The one things that's not yet technologically solved is clean aviation. It will be over time. Its why we do not need to be cutting flights either, we need to be incentivising clean aviation technology in the same way as we incentivised clean automobile technology, until the solution for that exists too.
    My argument for cycling is less about emissions and more about other problems like air pollution, road wear, and congestion though.

    I think you suggested that people weren't scared of cycling in the UK? Here ya go:


    Yes, and I respect your opinion even if I completely disagree with it. You aren't masquerading that cycling is the solution to climate change unlike other anti-car fanatics. That's why we can have an intelligent conversation with differing opinions because you aren't claiming something patently absurd as those who say cycling resolves the climate does.

    As for your graph, it doesn't prove anything about "scared". If people choose to drive 2km because they want to, because they don't want to get wet, because they're lazy, because its convenient, because its easy, or any other reason - that is their choice. And in a free society, their choice should be respected.

    Indeed the fact that the UK is well, well below the line suggests that choice, more than fear, is the reason.

    Furthermore as I said, people are dishonest in polls, and virtue signal. This is well known. The percentage who claim they'll vote in polls is far more than the percentage who actually do. Given people are choosing not to ride a bike, as demonstrated by the fact the UK dot is well underneath the line of the chart, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that a significant proportion of people are saying "its too dangerous" as a more virtuous reason why they don't than "I'm too lazy".
    Ahem; the numbers commuting by bike has increased markedly in the UK in the last quarter century. Now, it's still small in the general scale of things (and mostly concentrated in London), but it is definitely increasing.
    Oh, absolutely, they have markedly increased on a proportionate like-for-like basis of cycling stats versus cycling stats.

    They have not markedly increased as a percentage of total travel.

    As far as total km* travelled, cycling has in the past quarter of a century risen from a low of less than 1% of total km travelled ... to a new high of less than 1% of total km travelled.

    * or miles, using km for international comparison purposes.
    Total km travelled is a poor measure, given the large proportion of journeys that are below 5 km.

    We could have a massive increase in cycling journeys with very little impact on total kilometres.

    That's why for me at least, it's not an emissions issue. It's a congestion and other stuff issue.
    As far as the climate emissions is concerned, it is the only measure that matters.

    Which is why yes, its not an emissions issue.
    I don't think it's the *only* measure that matters.

    Travelling 200 miles on the motorway in a car - especially a modern one, and if there's a couple of you in the vehicle - is pretty efficient. (On a CO2 per person per mile basis.)

    Travelling half a mile to the store to buy a pint of milk, with all the associated parking hassles and idling at the lights, probably doesn't look so great on a CO2 per person per mile basis.

    Not all car journeys have the same CO2 per mile per passenger.
    The glorious thing with mathematics is that x * 0 = 0

    In order to be reaching Net Zero, we are going to need zero emissions vehicles. Which we have invented. If those vehicles are powered by zero emissions electricity, then we have net zero emissions.

    200 * 0 = 0

    0.5 * 0 also = 0

    If we need to reach net zero on the 200 mile journeys, then we also must by definition reach net zero on the half mile journeys too. QED.
    Depends where the electricity is coming from.
    The electricity needs to be zero emissions to reach net zero.

    Once electricity is zero emissions, there's no reason not to use it.

    And of course charging cars will help tremendously with the transition to zero emissions electricity.

    One problem with renewable electricity such as wind, or tidal, or solar, or even nuclear, is that it does not scale to demand (reaching the peaks of demand) and it works when it suits the source regardless of time of day even in the troughs of demand (eg overnight for wind).

    To offset that, we are going to need some sort of battery or similar storage to offset demand and supply. And there is no greater distributed form of storage than our cars and the associated batteries they are going to have. That is many TJ of storage, distributed across the nation.

    Far from cars being the enemy of a zero carbon future, cars are an invaluable part of the solution. They will absorb the overnight wind power generated, making it viable to scale up renewable generation for the daytime too.
    There is no greater distributed form of storage than the natural gas network. Convert it to hydrogen, add some salt caverns and all the surplus renewables can be used to create electrolytic hydrogen, which can be stored for use in periods of peak demand - both for power generation and for heating our homes.

    BTW, I am not denying that battery storage is part of the solution, including car batteries. Use your car to boil the kettle when you get home from work, and all that.
    Converting electricity to hydrogen and back again is so inefficient, that it is really throwing away all the energy, but accidentally keeping a tiny bit.

    Hydrogen is terrible for storage - leaks like crazy. Though it improves quite a bit if you add some carbon atoms. One for every 4 hydrogen atoms is quite nifty.
    I'm trying to throw in a reference to a a free retainer of an Anglo-Saxon lord ("Me, Thane") but I can't make it work. Apologies.
  • The King & Queen's Desert Hero is now a best-priced 8/1 for the St Leger after winning today's Gordon Stakes at Glorious Goodwood. The St Leger is our oldest classic horserace, first run in 1776, an otherwise unremarkable year.

    I usually watch the Leger from the rails somewhere given it isn't too far to get to by bicycle (ha!).

    The Doncaster Cup run the day before is older still although technically not a classic.

    I got buzzed by an independent 'live feed' drone last time out and followed it to the launch point on a bit of rough ground nearby. It was a 10k professional job, so obviously the 2 seconds that they get ahead of the official TV coverage is worth their while somehow. Not entirely sure the operator had filled in the required risk assessment...
    Yes, the drones are used for betting in-running (ie during the race itself). Even a small time advantage over other punters can be crucial, and lucrative.
    Who do they bet against in-running? The bookies, or other punters?

    Seems like a bad market to be in if you aren't one of the insiders.

    I'm not in that game but you can normally judge quite a lot standing by the stalls at the start of a race. I'm surprised more don't do it.
    Primarily they are betting against other punters on Betfair. You can bet in-running with bookmakers but they will soon close your account if you win.

    A friend of mine makes a modest living from it without the aid of a drone. He has to compensate with superior race-reading skills.
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