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We seem to be heading for the most boring White House race ever – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited May 2023 in General
imageWe seem to be heading for the most boring White House race ever – politicalbetting.com

Next year’s White Race will be the sixth such contest since PB was established in March 2004 and, indeed, it was the prevailing narrative that caused me to launch the site. Then Howard Dean was seen as a sure-fire favourite for the Dem nomination which I thought was rubbish and I had made a name for myself on the Betfair forums by setting out this view.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,951
    Six Kh-47M2 "Kinzhal" aeroballistic missiles were launched from six MiG-31K aircraft, 9 Kalibr cruise missiles were launched from ships in the Black Sea, and three land-based missiles (S-400, "Iskander-M").

    All shot down.

    Why these defence systems weren't put in place across Ukraine many months ago is a question that needs asking.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    HYUFD said:

    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination

    What a depressing choice
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    Trump was elected last time and very little of any consequence happened. I would expect more from you than to buy into the popular hysteria surrounding his political career.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    Perhaps the most bizarre thing is that Trump achieved little when he was President for the MAGA crowd.

    Yet they love him evermore rather than support someone who might get something done as President.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    Trump was elected last time and very little of any consequence happened.
    He abandoned the Ukranians out of pique (Zelensky refused to manufacture evidence about Biden's kid's laptop), renegotiated several international treaties, recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and thru his advocacy of ivermectin and reluctance to recognise the seriousness of Covid caused thousands of preventable deaths. Everything a President does, for good or ill, is of consequence


  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,530
    HYUFD said:

    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination

    Gretchen Whitmer should be the Democrat nominee not Biden .

    Such a shame that Biden has put his own interests above what’s best for the country and the rest of the world .

    He could deliver a Trump presidency .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    ICE called in Alex?
    Touché

    I’m actually going to seek out the coldest possible Stella beer in Alexandria (where I am headed now through insane Cairo traffic) just in honour of that brilliant moment in that resonant movie

    Last night’s sunset in the Sahara


  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    Democrats are fleeing Democrat cities on the coast, which have been turned to (literal) toilets by Woke Democrat policies

    In their desperation, some Americans will turn to the only available alternative. Trump
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination

    Gretchen Whitmer should be the Democrat nominee not Biden .

    Such a shame that Biden has put his own interests above what’s best for the country and the rest of the world .

    He could deliver a Trump presidency .
    Depends, to be fair to him Biden is the only Democrat who has proven he can beat Trump as he did in 2020. Whitmer as VP if rumours are correct would also be a more electorally viable prospect for the 2028 Democratic nomination in the general election than Harris
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination

    Gretchen Whitmer should be the Democrat nominee not Biden .

    Such a shame that Biden has put his own interests above what’s best for the country and the rest of the world .

    He could deliver a Trump presidency .
    Quite so. A ludicrous act of selfishness by a silly old
    man
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    Trump achieved very little in policy, but that's not really the point, I wouldn't say.

    He's too incompetent to carry out much sustained policy, but he's a threat to political, institutional and electoral systems, and so in the end to democratic legitimacy.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,865
    Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    While it does look likely Biden will be nominee again for the Democrats as incumbent President, latest rumour is he will replace VP Harris with Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer to shore up his position in the rustbelt swing states while Harris runs for the California Senate seat Feinstein vacated.

    Trump still looks favourite for the GOP nomination again but any more court cases judgements against him and it may end up DeSantis v Pence for the nomination

    Gretchen Whitmer should be the Democrat nominee not Biden .

    Such a shame that Biden has put his own interests above what’s best for the country and the rest of the world .

    He could deliver a Trump presidency .
    Quite so. A ludicrous act of selfishness by a silly old
    man
    We think a choice between Sunak and Starmer is depressing. Thank goodness we don’t have Biden and Trump as our choice.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,835

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    Hold on wasn't HS2 about capacity ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    You do realise you are boasting that “some of Britain’s trains are still occasionally faster than the trains in Egypt”?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    They haven't built a new line. It's a new train on an existing line. If you read my post, you'll see that they - or at least the Chinese - are building a new line.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    Maybe Egypt doesn’t have NIMBYs. Have you ever met any Egyptian Lib Dems?
    Egypt has a more flexible approach to the rule of law and property rights. China and other despotic regimes also gets capital projects done very quickly.

    Which system would you prefer to live under? I know which I would prefer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    They haven't built a new line. It's a new train on an existing line. If you read my post, you'll see that they - or at least the Chinese - are building a new line.
    Is there some reason why it doesn’t count as a high speed train if it is “built by the Chinese”?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    You do realise you are boasting that “some of Britain’s trains are still occasionally faster than the trains in Egypt”?
    *Many* British trains are, on many parts of the network.

    Besides, it's good to see someone who cried out for Brexit so routinely dissing the UK from a position of utter ignroance.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    edited May 2023
    The Post Office Inquiry has just got under way again. Today's witness is Mike Peach, who worked for Fujitsu.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP5e-3Q-jZ8
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    edited May 2023
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    Hold on wasn't HS2 about capacity ?
    It's about both. The main push is for capacity; high speed is just a side benefit. But the conversation was about speed, and I mentioned HS1 - or the line from the chunnel to St Pancras which has been operating for years...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    Jofra Archer ruled out of the Ashes
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    Anyone who disagrees with this is in de nile.
    I think they managed it through a pyramid selling scheme
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    Maybe Egypt doesn’t have NIMBYs. Have you ever met any Egyptian Lib Dems?
    Egypt has a more flexible approach to the rule of law and property rights. China and other despotic regimes also gets capital projects done very quickly.

    Which system would you prefer to live under? I know which I would prefer.
    Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Holland and many other countries with effective high speed networks seems to have done it without being “despotic regimes” unless you take a particularly dim view of Mark Rutte
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    Have a look at the Great Pyramid, Egyptians built that 5000 years ago, we couldn't build something similar now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    They haven't built a new line. It's a new train on an existing line. If you read my post, you'll see that they - or at least the Chinese - are building a new line.
    Is there some reason why it doesn’t count as a high speed train if it is “built by the Chinese”?
    The question is whether it would be being built if it were not for the Chinese investment. See the Belt and Road Initiative.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,054
    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    Ollie Pope the new vice captain.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    Maybe Egypt doesn’t have NIMBYs. Have you ever met any Egyptian Lib Dems?
    Egypt has a more flexible approach to the rule of law and property rights. China and other despotic regimes also gets capital projects done very quickly.

    Which system would you prefer to live under? I know which I would prefer.
    Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Holland and many other countries with effective high speed networks seems to have done it without being “despotic regimes” unless you take a particularly dim view of Mark Rutte
    Always talking Britain down eh? We are Britain and we are better than all these silly furriners you keep sycophantically mentioning. When will you take more pride in your country and take your holidays in Skegness?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    Hold on wasn't HS2 about capacity ?
    It's about both. The main push is for capacity; high speed is just a side benefit. But the conversation was about speed, and I mentioned HS1 - or the line from the chunnel to St Pancras which has been operating for years...
    Why did they not call it "High Capacity" or HC1 then? It would have stopped a lot of the arguments about the value of saving 20 mins on a run from Manchester to Euston...
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Jofra Archer ruled out of the Ashes

    Has he been given time off to write his new novel?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Maybe it has been because our ruling class has been too focussed on trivial and pointless matters?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    No frigging idea. Probably less than HS2?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,544

    Six Kh-47M2 "Kinzhal" aeroballistic missiles were launched from six MiG-31K aircraft, 9 Kalibr cruise missiles were launched from ships in the Black Sea, and three land-based missiles (S-400, "Iskander-M").

    All shot down.

    Why these defence systems weren't put in place across Ukraine many months ago is a question that needs asking.

    It's a reasonable question - as is the one about modern fighter aircraft (the spin about time to train pilots have been rendered nonsense by the passage of time).
    Getting western military establishments to part with current systems has clearly been an arduous process.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    A Trump-Johnson Transatlantic tag team is a deliciously comedic prospect, were it not so scary.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    ICE called in Alex?
    Touché

    I’m actually going to seek out the coldest possible Stella beer in Alexandria (where I am headed now through insane Cairo traffic) just in honour of that brilliant moment in that resonant movie

    Last night’s sunset in the Sahara


    Carlsberg not Stella surely?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    See my post. It hasn't - unless you think 100MPH is faster than 125MPH on many parts of our network, or the >180 MPH on HS1... ;)
    Hold on wasn't HS2 about capacity ?
    It's about both. The main push is for capacity; high speed is just a side benefit. But the conversation was about speed, and I mentioned HS1 - or the line from the chunnel to St Pancras which has been operating for years...
    Why did they not call it "High Capacity" or HC1 then? It would have stopped a lot of the arguments about the value of saving 20 mins on a run from Manchester to Euston...
    Becasuse then people would have realised that its main function was to provide more trains for Home Counties commuters traveling in to The Smoke. So a bit like Crossrail.

    It is only the Brum to London bit that achieves this, so clearly the rest of HS2 doesn't matter when it comes to fulfilling its primary objective and can be cut.

    As for Northern Poorhouse Rail, the nickname is spot-on.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    Have a look at the Great Pyramid, Egyptians built that 5000 years ago, we couldn't build something similar now.
    Not at the prices you builder folk are quoting these days.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    "Million more migrants heading to Britain before next election, ministers warned

    Projected influx of workers and students next year is at odds with Conservative pledge to cut numbers, says Home Office"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/15/ministers-warned-million-more-migrants-britain-election/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    ICE called in Alex?
    Touché

    I’m actually going to seek out the coldest possible Stella beer in Alexandria (where I am headed now through insane Cairo traffic) just in honour of that brilliant moment in that resonant movie

    Last night’s sunset in the Sahara


    Carlsberg not Stella surely?
    Good point. It was Carlsberg in the movie, right?

    I only say Stella because that is the national beer in Egypt. And not a bad beer for a country that often shuns alcohol
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    You have to admire Ceaucescu erecting the world's heaviest building and demolishing 7 km2 of the old city centre of Bucharest and moving 40,000 people out of the area. He'd have a super fast railway in no time
  • boulayboulay Posts: 3,769
    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    ICE called in Alex?
    Touché

    I’m actually going to seek out the coldest possible Stella beer in Alexandria (where I am headed now through insane Cairo traffic) just in honour of that brilliant moment in that resonant movie

    Last night’s sunset in the Sahara


    Carlsberg not Stella surely?
    Good point. It was Carlsberg in the movie, right?

    I only say Stella because that is the national beer in Egypt. And not a bad beer for a country that often shuns alcohol
    Carlsberg in the film, another beer in the book that apparently sounded too German and so was considered a bit off to use when still close to the end of the war.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,544
    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Trump achieved very little in policy, but that's not really the point, I wouldn't say.

    He's too incompetent to carry out much sustained policy, but he's a threat to political, institutional and electoral systems, and so in the end to democratic legitimacy.

    Trump achieved very little directly - bar tax cuts for the rich, funded by a massive deficit, the consequences of which are coming home to roost now - but his nominations for the SCOTUS, driven by the conservative right, are having profound impacts on policy, and will likely do so for decades given the conservative majority there now and the ages of the justices.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,866
    edited May 2023

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    Our system of government in which MPs are closely tied with individual constituencies probably doesn't help. Every decision is made with regard to its possible effect on each particular local MP's chances of reelection. It may be no coincidence that the US, with a similar style of government, also seems to struggle with large infrastructure projects.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    geoffw said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    You have to admire Ceaucescu erecting the world's heaviest building and demolishing 7 km2 of the old city centre of Bucharest and moving 40,000 people out of the area. He'd have a super fast railway in no time
    I take your point but I actually doubt that. The old soviet bloc was shit at this stuff. It’s neo-capitalist Chinese communism which gets shit done

    Have you ever seen Ceaucescu’s “palace” in Bucharest? I have. Somehow it manages to express the hideous mediocre incompetent evil of the regime in the form of grotesque pilasters

    It is a contender for worst building in the world. Even its sheer size is numbingly unimpressive

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    edited May 2023
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Poor and undemocratic countries don't have the luxury of saying no when the Government wants to get stuff done.

    I despise NIMBYs and our sclerotic planning system, but I would compare us against the best of the developed world. Look at rail systems in nations like Japan, which is a democratic, developed and wealthy nation if that's what you're into.

    Don't drag us down to third world levels. As much as I deplore our planning system, I'd take NIMBYism over dictatorship any day.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    Our system of government in which MPs are closely tied with individual constituencies probably doesn't help. Every decision is made with regard to its possible effect on each particular local MP's chances of reelection. It may be no coincidence that the US, with a similar style of government, also seems to struggle with large infrastructure projects.
    It’s an interesting comparison. America used to be good at this stuff, too. The original US railways from coast to coast were phenomenal achievements


    And the freeways are sometimes majestic. The road from Denver to Salt Lake City through the Rockies is, in places, sublime

    And yet now they struggle - like us
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
    And the Liz Line didn't feel particularly dreamy last week when I had to endure a load of delays because of a faulty track.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,079
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    We lack the nerve to spend the money and face the difficulties major projects cause. But I agree, when we do stuff it is often done very well.

    But I am more convinced than ever that we need some form of political reform that removes the ability of outright vengance from constituents. Perhaps a form of AV? TSE could do a thread on it....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,544

    Ever is a long time. Eisenhower v Stevenson 1956 was completely boring throughout...

    Eisenhower is not a bad comparison with Biden.

    Whoever the Republicans end up with will be a considerably more alarming prospect than was Adlai, though. Note the latter got the nomination as Truman's VP was considered, at 74, to be too old.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
     
    Leon said:

    geoffw said:


    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    You have to admire Ceaucescu erecting the world's heaviest building and demolishing 7 km2 of the old city centre of Bucharest and moving 40,000 people out of the area. He'd have a super fast railway in no time
    I take your point but I actually doubt that. The old soviet bloc was shit at this stuff. It’s neo-capitalist Chinese communism which gets shit done

    Have you ever seen Ceaucescu’s “palace” in Bucharest? I have. Somehow it manages to express the hideous mediocre incompetent evil of the regime in the form of grotesque pilasters

    It is a contender for worst building in the world. Even its sheer size is numbingly unimpressive

    I have been in it. It also has the world's largest carpet which had to be woven in situ because of its weight. Interestingly the carpet's design mirrrors the huge chandeliers hanging above it. The palace and everything in it were made locally in Roumania. After Ceaucescu they decided to keep rather than destroy it (which would have been a massive task) and part of it is now houses the Roumanian parliament. Btw I don't entirely agree with you on the aesthetics. I think their Latin heritage saved Roumania from the worst excesses of Slavic communism.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    They haven't built a new line. It's a new train on an existing line. If you read my post, you'll see that they - or at least the Chinese - are building a new line.
    Egypt is four times the size of UK, and has 5625 km of track.
    BR has 16,000 km of track. Egypt has 100 million people.

    For its space and population Egypt's system is tiny. And I don't suppose NIMBYS get much say when building new stuff. The Chinese are pouring money into Africa.

    Our infrastructure is gigantic and of ancient origin.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,836
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

    It's become a bit of a niche view on PB but I agree. He's the frontrunner for the nomination right now but I can see quite a few scenarios where it doesn't end up that way.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 2,995

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    Watford to Banbury in 30 mins is about as good as we’ll get, I think. An insane travesty of governance.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
    Remember, Leon's airport experience is the complimentary hand relief in the Executive Lounge. He doesn't have to mingle with the riff-raff in the shopping malls.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus bloody Christ even EGYPT has a high speed train. Alex to Cairo

    That depends on the definition of 'high-speed train'. They are currently building a 250kmh (155 MPH)-capable line, due to open in 2027. Being basically funded and built by the Chinese. Although the initial operating speed will be 230 KMH (~145 MPH).

    For context, many high-speed trains operate at over 200 MPH. HS2's line is being engineered for 400 km/h, although the initial trains are being made for a service speed of 330 km/h. Therefore Egypt's new line isn't particularly 'high speed'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Egypt

    As far as I can tell, the 'high-speed' train you are wetting yourself over goes at 160 km/h (100 MPH). Not exactly that speedy...

    https://egyptindependent.com/third-talgo-train-to-start-operating-thursday-on-cairo-alexandria-line/
    Do you know Egypt? The fact they have managed to build any new train line at all is impressive

    The fact it speeds sleekly through the Nile Delta (insanely populous) and exceeds 100mph is phenomenal. Egypt is POOR

    Meanwhile HS2 is scheduled to begin operation from a small shed near Acton in the early 2040s. By then there will probably be a high speed train from Cairo to Cape Town
    They haven't built a new line. It's a new train on an existing line. If you read my post, you'll see that they - or at least the Chinese - are building a new line.
    Egypt is four times the size of UK, and has 5625 km of track.
    BR has 16,000 km of track. Egypt has 100 million people.

    For its space and population Egypt's system is tiny. And I don't suppose NIMBYS get much say when building new stuff. The Chinese are pouring money into Africa.

    Our infrastructure is gigantic and of ancient origin.

    Egypt is 95% desert, and almost all the population lives in a 5 mile wide strip of land that runs North to South through the middle of the country.

    Any comparison to the UK is completely ridiculous.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    edited May 2023
    Nigelb said:

    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

    Yes. Respectfully disagree with Mike Smithson. This would be pretty boring on condition we know in advance that Biden stands, stays alive, gets the nomination and wins the election in an uncontroversial manner, with the Republican candidate, Trump, being gracious in an acknowledged and clear defeat.

    All the other possibilities (between them running at a 100% chance) seem to me to be, if I may quote Wodehouse, 'fraught with considerable interest' for the USA, for punters and the the future of the world. So I am reluctant to say there isn't much to see.

  • .

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    We lack the nerve to spend the money and face the difficulties major projects cause. But I agree, when we do stuff it is often done very well.

    But I am more convinced than ever that we need some form of political reform that removes the ability of outright vengance from constituents. Perhaps a form of AV? TSE could do a thread on it....
    As much as we moan about everyday life in Britain, our politicians, the monarchy, house building, racism, brexit, the EU, pot holes, the NHS....we're still a hell of a country, with the advantage that a boring environment (no real extremes of weather, no earthquakes, volcanoes and a boringly benign climate) brings.
    We just need to be bold. We need our politicians to be bold. We could be a great nation, a benefit to the wider world and great neighbours for an independent Scotland and the EU. We could feed ourselves, head towards a renewable green self sufficiency in energy. Instead, we just prefer boring familiarity, pissing and whining about each other and the rest of the world. Nimbyism and tribalism stifling us.
    We'll never turn things around while we have such small minded, self serving politicians, and we keep voting for them.
    Yup, it's a pie in the sky, trippy dream, but it helps me get through the day!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    I am not sure it can be just that. I mean I oppose HS2 and think it is a massive waste of money, but even I wonder why it is going to cost an etimated £200 million per Km when the latest TGV line to the Med only cost 20 million Euros per Km.

    There is something seriously wrong with how we do civil engineering projects in the UK and not much of that is due to NIMBYs.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,182

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    We lack the nerve to spend the money and face the difficulties major projects cause. But I agree, when we do stuff it is often done very well.

    But I am more convinced than ever that we need some form of political reform that removes the ability of outright vengance from constituents. Perhaps a form of AV? TSE could do a thread on it....
    Problems we have include:
    - Britain (well, England) is full. Every inch is valued. Every square foot has its own preservation society. Every field is of historical importance. All our countryside is highly productive and highly loved. There's nowhere we can put anything without anyone minding. This isn't anyone's fault; this is just a peculiar feature of Britain. Its loveliness and fecundity are part of why it is so densely populated.
    - It's part of human nature that we value losses higher than gains. Those facing the loss of a view fight harder than those who might benefit from more capacity on the railways.
    - We have a highly adversarial system; so much public or quasi-public money is spent on parts of the public sector fighting other parts of the public sector, when arguably that money might better be fought on designing a better thing in the first place, or even on building the thing.

    Some of these factors are linked.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
    Remember, Leon's airport experience is the complimentary hand relief in the Executive Lounge. He doesn't have to mingle with the riff-raff in the shopping malls.
    What's wrong with shopping malls?

    Its a pleasant way to kill time while awaiting the flight. If you don't want to buy something, nobody puts a gun to your head to make you - they couldn't get that past security and this isn't America.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    It's the fault of the Treasury - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    While using a rule book that is very much anti development because if a profit isn't immediately identifible it gets binned.

    Which is why none of Leeds / Manchester / Birmingham have metro / underground lines and the rest of the world does.

    and Metro lines are the investment that triggers real growth in a town. It may not show up on a spreadsheet but you can see it in every single town that has then.

    Heck just look at how rapdily Copenhagen is expanding once they add the metro line to the area. It was how the Metropolitan line was built after all.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Near where I live there's a huge amount of building going on right now on HS2. It's going to be impressive when it opens.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    edited May 2023
    '
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

    It's become a bit of a niche view on PB but I agree. He's the frontrunner for the nomination right now but I can see quite a few scenarios where it doesn't end up that way.
    Currently askable but unanswerable questions are PB stock in trade. (In this respect at least it resembles a philosophy department). The next POTUS election is fascinating because there are so many but we shall find out. It's like a slow 5 day test match.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    It's the fault of the Treasury - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    While using a rule book that is very much anti development because if a profit isn't immediately identifible it gets binned.

    Which is why none of Leeds / Manchester / Birmingham have metro / underground lines and the rest of the world does.

    and Metro lines are the investment that triggers real growth in a town. It may not show up on a spreadsheet but you can see it in every single town that has then.

    Heck just look at how rapdily Copenhagen is expanding once they add the metro line to the area. It was how the Metropolitan line was built after all.
    Actually, Manchester's Metro is quite extensive and privately (non-govt) funded. When the Blair/Brown Labour govt offered to help fund the extension it came with so many strings attached and conditions that Mancunians voted it down and the Metro raised private funding. Within a few years the metro tripled in size...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,341
    '

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
    Remember, Leon's airport experience is the complimentary hand relief in the Executive Lounge. He doesn't have to mingle with the riff-raff in the shopping malls.
    What's wrong with shopping malls?

    Its a pleasant way to kill time while awaiting the flight. If you don't want to buy something, nobody puts a gun to your head to make you - they couldn't get that past security and this isn't America.
    One stone. Two birds. This

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/15/why-enjoy-the-sunshine-when-you-could-torment-yourself-in-a-shopping-centre

    is what is wrong with shopping malls

    and

    rivals Ceausescu's palace for worst building competition.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    Huh? Heathrow "a pretty seductive airport"? T5 once you are through security is like a modest shopping mall, but the rest (that is currently open) isn't much better than Stansted. Step away from the bubble pipe!

    Execution! Did someone mention execution? Suella did you hear that?
    Every decent airport is now like a pleasant shopping mall

    What marks Heathrow out is the brilliant access to a world city. 15-20 minutes by train
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Later peeps!
  • CJtheOptimistCJtheOptimist Posts: 227

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    A Trump-Johnson Transatlantic tag team is a deliciously comedic prospect, were it not so scary.
    I often wonder if Trump as POTUS and Boris as PM are simply evidence that the universe is indeed a simulation, as suggested by some scientists. I can just imagine the person running the simulation thinking "Let's see what happens when we put the crazy people in charge!"
  • Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    carnforth said:

    Morocco has a real high speed line - well, half. It slows down on some parts of the route:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

    Thailand is also on the way. Bangkok-Chiang Mai

    Basically every country I go to now has a better high speed network - or is building one that will open soon - compared to the UK
    How much did each one cost ?
    Less than HS2 probably. We seem to have an amazing ability to delay and fiddle with a project until the costs spiral out of all control then build a ¼ of it to "save" money.

    Does HS2 still reach as far as Brum these days or does it now stop at Aylesbury?
    The frustrating thing is that when we do actually build this stuff it is highly effective. The Liz Line is dreamy

    Likewise Heathrow is now a pretty seductive airport - one of the best in the western world - after being a right old mess for yonks

    We have the ability. We seem to have some intention tremor when it comes to execution
    We lack the nerve to spend the money and face the difficulties major projects cause. But I agree, when we do stuff it is often done very well.

    But I am more convinced than ever that we need some form of political reform that removes the ability of outright vengance from constituents. Perhaps a form of AV? TSE could do a thread on it....
    Problems we have include:
    - Britain (well, England) is full. Every inch is valued. Every square foot has its own preservation society. Every field is of historical importance. All our countryside is highly productive and highly loved. There's nowhere we can put anything without anyone minding. This isn't anyone's fault; this is just a peculiar feature of Britain. Its loveliness and fecundity are part of why it is so densely populated.
    - It's part of human nature that we value losses higher than gains. Those facing the loss of a view fight harder than those who might benefit from more capacity on the railways.
    - We have a highly adversarial system; so much public or quasi-public money is spent on parts of the public sector fighting other parts of the public sector, when arguably that money might better be fought on designing a better thing in the first place, or even on building the thing.

    Some of these factors are linked.
    That's a great point. Just about every inch of land in England is owned by someone. The Dartmoor wild camping issue being a great example. It makes my blood boil that a few people can "own" so much of our nature.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,727

    Sadly the race may be boring but the aftermath could get exciting very rapidly if the wrong man wins.

    I find it difficult to believe that the US is actually considering electing Trump again. It defies logic.

    A Trump-Johnson Transatlantic tag team is a deliciously comedic prospect, were it not so scary.
    I often wonder if Trump as POTUS and Boris as PM are simply evidence that the universe is indeed a simulation, as suggested by some scientists. I can just imagine the person running the simulation thinking "Let's see what happens when we put the crazy people in charge!"
    And Truss is what happens when the operator drops a tab of acid...
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited May 2023

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    It's the fault of the Treasury - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    While using a rule book that is very much anti development because if a profit isn't immediately identifible it gets binned.

    Which is why none of Leeds / Manchester / Birmingham have metro / underground lines and the rest of the world does.

    and Metro lines are the investment that triggers real growth in a town. It may not show up on a spreadsheet but you can see it in every single town that has then.

    Heck just look at how rapdily Copenhagen is expanding once they add the metro line to the area. It was how the Metropolitan line was built after all.
    Actually, Manchester's Metro is quite extensive and privately (non-govt) funded. When the Blair/Brown Labour govt offered to help fund the extension it came with so many strings attached and conditions that Mancunians voted it down and the Metro raised private funding. Within a few years the metro tripled in size...
    Manchester has trams - that share their tracks with cars.

    Manchester doesn't have a metro in the traditional sense of single purpose tracks.

    Edit to add a lovely flowchart to prove my point.


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,544
    algarkirk said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

    Yes. Respectfully disagree with Mike Smithson. This would be pretty boring on condition we know in advance that Biden stands, stays alive, gets the nomination and wins the election in an uncontroversial manner, with the Republican candidate, Trump, being gracious in an acknowledged and clear defeat.

    All the other possibilities (between them running at a 100% chance) seem to me to be, if I may quote Wodehouse, 'fraught with considerable interest' for the USA, for punters and the the future of the world. So I am reluctant to say there isn't much to see.

    If one were to take the view that Trump will not be the nominee, there are some quite interesting long odds possibilities.
    I'm slightly surprised Mike hasn't had at least a sniff at a few of them.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,182
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    It's the fault of the Treasury - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    While using a rule book that is very much anti development because if a profit isn't immediately identifible it gets binned.

    Which is why none of Leeds / Manchester / Birmingham have metro / underground lines and the rest of the world does.

    and Metro lines are the investment that triggers real growth in a town. It may not show up on a spreadsheet but you can see it in every single town that has then.

    Heck just look at how rapdily Copenhagen is expanding once they add the metro line to the area. It was how the Metropolitan line was built after all.
    Actually, Manchester's Metro is quite extensive and privately (non-govt) funded. When the Blair/Brown Labour govt offered to help fund the extension it came with so many strings attached and conditions that Mancunians voted it down and the Metro raised private funding. Within a few years the metro tripled in size...
    Manchester has trams - that share their tracks with cars.

    Manchester doesn't have a metro in the traditional sense of single purpose tracks.
    Well, it's a bit of a hybrid. But it's mostly (80%-ish?) a traditional Metro with singe purpose track.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,873

    Jofra Archer ruled out of the Ashes

    Archer will never be fully fit, in the same way that Raducanu won't. She will never win another Slam, Archer will probably never play test cricket for England again, or certainly a full series.

    Sad in both cases.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited May 2023
    Cookie said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    Because we're British, we always quibble about the cost and the effect on the view from our windows.

    So we end up here.
    It's the fault of the Treasury - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    While using a rule book that is very much anti development because if a profit isn't immediately identifible it gets binned.

    Which is why none of Leeds / Manchester / Birmingham have metro / underground lines and the rest of the world does.

    and Metro lines are the investment that triggers real growth in a town. It may not show up on a spreadsheet but you can see it in every single town that has then.

    Heck just look at how rapdily Copenhagen is expanding once they add the metro line to the area. It was how the Metropolitan line was built after all.
    Actually, Manchester's Metro is quite extensive and privately (non-govt) funded. When the Blair/Brown Labour govt offered to help fund the extension it came with so many strings attached and conditions that Mancunians voted it down and the Metro raised private funding. Within a few years the metro tripled in size...
    Manchester has trams - that share their tracks with cars.

    Manchester doesn't have a metro in the traditional sense of single purpose tracks.
    Well, it's a bit of a hybrid. But it's mostly (80%-ish?) a traditional Metro with singe purpose track.
    But it's a tram in the bit (city centre) that really should be underground and where the real benefit would be felt..
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,544

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    On topic, this For me WH2024 looks set to be the most boring one ever with the WH2020 nominees being the ones who fight it out next year.. assumes Trump will be the nominee.

    I still think it quite likely he won't be.

    It's become a bit of a niche view on PB but I agree. He's the frontrunner for the nomination right now but I can see quite a few scenarios where it doesn't end up that way.
    The scenarios are easy enough to sketch out but I think you're overstating their probability. Look at what he's already come through - it will take a lot to genuinely knock him out and time is ticking.

    Health? Yes, possibly. He's obese, old and has a bad diet. But it's also less than a year to the primaries.
    Legal trouble? Maybe. But look at what he's come through. It'll need a criminal conviction that jails him...
    Is that actually so ?
    I think it quite possible that a number of ongoing, concurrent cases might make it very hard for him to be the nominee.

    He hasn't been through plenty of law courts, but he hasn't been through the kind of legal scrutiny he's likely to face over the next twelve months.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Britain has been outpaced by Egypt

    I thought it was only "remoaners" who talked down Britain?
    Anyone with a functioning nervous system can see that HS2 is a dismal infrastructure omnishambles, and that something has gone badly wrong in UK planning when much poorer countries are able to deliver these trains in half the time it takes us to decide NOT to build a new platform at Euston
    That rules out Foreskin then
This discussion has been closed.