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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    What do we reckon are the "actual" chances of Europe slipping into recession?
    I thought I heard about 40%, but I might have got that wrong.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Smarmeron said:

    @Speedy
    Kipperlandia?

    Commonwealth of Hope and Glory?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Can you name any of those 1200 or are they theoretical patients?
  • UKIP bad for tories. UKIP bad for labour. That's right argue amongst yourselves. Meanwhile, non political geeks are saying, fuck the both of you.
  • saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Well you are going to be disappointed then. As you well know, the time scale to get to £8/hr, means the promise is a barely above inflation above rise and I am presuming that Ed isn't going to turn into the tax credit hatchet man i.e makes no difference in terms of subsidising employees.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Smarmeron said:

    What do we reckon are the "actual" chances of Europe slipping into recession?
    I thought I heard about 40%, but I might have got that wrong.

    It already is in recession.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited October 2014
    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    And I don't like hitching to Osborne's idiotic spending limits which are damaging the economy. But all Parties are coalitions and I'm aware I can't have everything.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Call me a cynic; but Labours £2.5 billion will just get swallowed up by the current deficit.In Leics we are 950 000 people and the NHS shortfall locally £350 million over the next five years. Multiply that by about 60 times for the rest of the UK. Money is no substitute for some serious talk about rationing or co-payment or both.

  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,892
    @LordAshcroft
    Did David Cameron's big conference speech woo back Ukip voters? Answer in this poll and my analysis.

    You can guess the answer.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2014
    A few more details of the survation poll:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2788816/Bullish-Ukip-swoops-Kent-target.html

    John Curtice did the seat projection based on regional sub-samples.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Any objective study of outcomes also shows massive improvement comparing 1997 to 2010 .
    Clearly some of the things that went on at Stafford were disgraceful but trying to extrapolate tha to other hospitals is stupid

    The other hospitals all had inspections you know are you trying to say the millions of patients who filled in positive patient survey results were talking bollocks?
  • Freggles said:

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Can you name any of those 1200 or are they theoretical patients?
    Yes they are a figment of the imagination, everything was perfect with the NHS during the 13 years Labour ran it, isn't that correct?

    No idea what's gone wrong in Wales though, have you?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    ZenPagan said:

    kle4 said:

    @kle4 @ZenPagan

    I think that there is widespread dissatisfaction with the electoral system (though I am not convinced this is new). It is like the House of Lords: everyone agrees that it is not suited to purpose or to the modern world. It is nepotistic and full of patronage and anachronism. It is possible to get a place through connections to the party elite. No one wants it how it is.

    But fixing our broken system is like fixing the HoL. No one agrees what it should look like. Even the kippers do not speak with one voice, and they have the support of only 25% max of the population.

    A fair comment I think. I suppose then my position is that 'the people' do not care enough to a coalesce around an actual solution to their dissatisfaction because they cannot agree on what that solution might be, and things are not so bad it is worth rushing things, so although not their intention, 'the people' are in effect endorsing the status quo for the forseeable future.
    That I suspect is an answer that is nearer the truth. Sadly there are probably almost as many favoured solutions as people in favour of change. A national debate would be good to have but I fear unlikely to happen as it would have to be promulgated by politicians and I expect they would not want to give it a free run but instead impose a range of "solutions" to choose from rather than a rebuild from scratch strategy. Looks like we are stuck in the 17th century a while longer

    Or vote for the party which seems most likely to bust the system?
  • BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    And I don't like hitching to Osborne's idiotic spending limits which are damaging the economy. But all Parties are coalitions and I'm aware I can't have everything.
    No EU referendum? Try selling that your core vote
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    edited October 2014
    Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 21h

    Bar chart of all Great Britain by-election results since GE 2010 (updated for Clacton and Heywood & Middleton)

    twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/520728363825364992
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Equivalent of 7p an hour pay rise in six years time satisfies some of you?

    Free rent for empty rooms (the laughable bedroom "tax") paid for by frozen child benefit?

    Frozen gas prices - at higher prices than normal, with unemployment increased?



  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    Indeed. They could tell anyone who owns a house to hand it over to the state. They could put income tax at 75%. They could prevent parents educating their children the way they want to. And hand even more powers to the EU.

    There's SO much more they can do.

  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    "The PM’s personal rating among Ukippers has fallen by almost a THIRD since he made the vow in his conference speech.

    Just one in ten say they are satisfied with the job he is doing — fewer than among even die-hard Labour supporters."

    OUCH
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    edited October 2014
    Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 22h

    Aggregate vote at GB by-elections since 2010 (updated for Clacton/Heywood): Lab 41.9, Con 17.9, #UKIP 17.4, LD 9.8

    twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/520722345967620096
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited October 2014
    UKIPers still had capacity to harden against Cameron further?

    Cannot see fear of Ed M overcoming that, but maybe it won't be as bad as it seems if the majority would still prefer him to Ed. But with such lack of enthusiasm surely not much tactical voting to save Cameron, just that they might still prefer it be him than Ed, without actually doing something to help that happen.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    And I don't like hitching to Osborne's idiotic spending limits which are damaging the economy. But all Parties are coalitions and I'm aware I can't have everything.
    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2014

    Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 21h

    Bar chart of all Great Britain by-election results since GE 2010 (updated for Clacton and Heywood & Middleton)

    twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/520728363825364992

    That's a super bar chart Sunil. Thank you. :-)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Wether tonights Survation poll is an outlier or not, it seems that UKIP have caught the mood of the nation and in return the nation has caught, or latched on, to the purpose of UKIP.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795

    Freggles said:

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Can you name any of those 1200 or are they theoretical patients?
    Yes they are a figment of the imagination, everything was perfect with the NHS during the 13 years Labour ran it, isn't that correct?

    No idea what's gone wrong in Wales though, have you?
    The 1200 are a figment of your imagination if you're talking so called "deaths". HSMRs were not a tally of deaths.

    This has been covered many times.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014
    Speedy said:

    A few more details of the survation poll:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2788816/Bullish-Ukip-swoops-Kent-target.html

    John Curtice did the seat projection based on regional sub-samples.

    With the caveats that Curtice notes about regional samples, the good news for UKIP is that there does appear to be a (modest) geographical concentration of their vote.

    The SDP's problem in 1983 was there was next to none.

    I still think 128 seats is pie in the sky under FPTP though...
  • saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    And I don't like hitching to Osborne's idiotic spending limits which are damaging the economy. But all Parties are coalitions and I'm aware I can't have everything.
    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    They are so pathetic it's laughable
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Any objective study of outcomes also shows massive improvement comparing 1997 to 2010 .
    Clearly some of the things that went on at Stafford were disgraceful but trying to extrapolate tha to other hospitals is stupid

    The other hospitals all had inspections you know are you trying to say the millions of patients who filled in positive patient survey results were talking bollocks?
    There were 5 hospitals with worse standardised mortality figures than Stafford. University Hospitals Leicester was not one of those, but I know stories of many other places that back up my feeling that Stafford was not unique. I left the Labour party because of what they did to the NHS from 2001, with Milburn, Reid and Hewitt the villans.

    Private contractors are not always the answer:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/14/nhs-eye-operations-private-provider-musgrove

  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    So the right together is getting towards 50% vote share and Labour to 30% and yet the way the votes break down at local level, labour can win a national majority, although not in England

    Very likely to create a revolution on the streets in late 2015. Big risk to UK stability.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    Why what inflation rate you factoring in? 4.6% pa

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    saddo said:

    So the right together is getting towards 50% vote share and Labour to 30% and yet the way the votes break down at local level, labour can win a national majority, although not in England

    Very likely to create a revolution on the streets in late 2015. Big risk to UK stability.

    Because a great many UKIP voters do not consider themselves rightwing. Remember how when specific polling was carried out asking about a potential Conservative/UKIP alliance, the main effect was Labour got a sizeable boost.

    https://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/867743327.png?1413028900
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited October 2014
    RodCrosby said:



    I still think 128 seats is pie in the sky under FPTP though...

    That's a terrible thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    saddo said:

    So the right together is getting towards 50% vote share and Labour to 30% and yet the way the votes break down at local level, labour can win a national majority, although not in England

    Very likely to create a revolution on the streets in late 2015. Big risk to UK stability.

    Well frankly "right-wing" voters will only have themselves to blame for being stupid.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,892
    edited October 2014
    47.3% of 2010 Lib Dems switching to UKIP in that Survation poll.
  • Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 21h

    Bar chart of all Great Britain by-election results since GE 2010 (updated for Clacton and Heywood & Middleton)

    twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/520728363825364992

    That's a super bar chart Sunil. Thank you. :-)
    You is welcome :)

    But did you notice my other chart (aggregate vote) with UKIP only 0.5% behind the Tories?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    kle4 said:

    UKIPers still had capacity to harden against Cameron further?

    Cannot see fear of Ed M overcoming that, but maybe it won't be as bad as it seems if the majority would still prefer him to Ed. But with such lack of enthusiasm surely not much tactical voting to save Cameron, just that they might still prefer it be him than Ed, without actually doing something to help that happen.

    The Conservatives might want to avoid using those big posters of Mr Cameron in the Free Republic of UKIP!
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    More and more, I'm starting to think a Labour Party led by Alan Johnson or Andy Burnham (i.e. someone who actually sounds like a normal humanbeing) would be unbeatable next year.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    Sunil Prasannan @Sunil_P2 21h

    Bar chart of all Great Britain by-election results since GE 2010 (updated for Clacton and Heywood & Middleton)

    twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/520728363825364992

    That's a super bar chart Sunil. Thank you. :-)
    You is welcome :)

    But did you notice my other chart (aggregate vote) with UKIP only 0.5% behind the Tories?
    I did, but I refused to accept it. UKIP leads from the front! :-)
  • IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    edited October 2014
    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    Why what inflation rate you factoring in? 4.6% pa

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    Notice you cut out quite a bit there.


    But to go with what you did reply to.

    I would like to see minimum wage beat inflation you don't.

    You appear to be happy with the impact of the hated bedroom tax on people who happen to be in houses worth more than yours, no hint of envy there at all. It says a great deal about your mentality.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Artist said:

    47.3% of 2010 Lib Dems switching to UKIP in that Survation poll.

    Antifrank, Mr Senior, Freggles. They've all seen the light?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited October 2014
    A few big things from the survation tables:

    1. UKIP are ahead in the South.
    2. UKIP are ahead in the over 55's.
    3. UKIP get almost half of 2010 LD's.
    4. UKIP are ahead in the DE category.
    5. UKIP are level with the Tories and Labour with C2's
    6. UKIP are beating the Tories in Wales.
    7. UKIP beat Labour with Men.
    8. SNP gets 50% in Scotland.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    If UKIP continue to attract 15% + of votes, the Tories will lose many seats in England and Labour could be on for a majority with about 35% of the vote. In that situation I would think that there would be pressure to change the voting system, as FPTP would not be relevant when there are more than two strong parties.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    So long as working class people who got lucky have to move out to let the "Ed Miliband's" of this world move in, eh?

    Wouldn't do to have working class people in these houses, would it?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited October 2014
    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    Off the top of my head:

    Repeal of Health and Social Care Act, Abolition of bedroom Tax, Freezing Gas Prices, No EU referendum, Higher rate tax back to 50p, Moratorium on Free Schools (hopefully to be abolished in time), 25 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds, Raise minimum wage to £8 per hour by 2020, 200,000 new homes a year by 2020, Mansion Tax (should be £1m).

    They could do much much more of course.

    And I don't like hitching to Osborne's idiotic spending limits which are damaging the economy. But all Parties are coalitions and I'm aware I can't have everything.
    Just two points ( I could go on) -

    Mansion tax will be a zoo: Little old ladies with a £2.05m house they've lived in since 1968, Russian oligarchs with a £20M pile and a raft of top notch lawyers saying it's worth nothing really and anyway Mr Kusnetsov is away in Siberia so HMRC can chase him there.

    Where are the skills, materials, and general wherewithal coming from for this magic 200k homes? If we all wish hard close our eyes and count to three will it happen somehow? Merely thinking or announcing it is fine but HOW is it going to happen!? Looser planning laws? Overriding local nimbies ( good luck )? And what about Ed's wonderful incentive to building companies that they'd have to use land or lose it? I'm sure they are all incredibly well disposed to him after that threat......,

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out. Hence all the desperate attempts to rig parliamentary votes to trap Labour. None will cleanse him of that singular error though! As such Labour now has no fear putting the rate back up. As they should.

    I'm sure whatever the rules are, the mansion tax will be collectible.

    Re minimum wage. - it's the commitment that's important. I find it interesting how readily rightwingers want to leave things like living standards to fate. Dangling in the wind - not a great strategy.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    chestnut said:

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    So long as working class people who got lucky have to move out to let the "Ed Miliband's" of this world move in, eh?

    Wouldn't do to have working class people in these houses, would it?
    Full of immigrants aren't they.

    Why do people want the poor to shoulder the burden of deficit reduction?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited October 2014

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour cannot and will not ignore

    The opposition leader pledges to tackle immigration, invest in the NHS and pay a fair wage for hard work

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Any objective study of outcomes also shows massive improvement comparing 1997 to 2010 .
    Clearly some of the things that went on at Stafford were disgraceful but trying to extrapolate tha to other hospitals is stupid

    The other hospitals all had inspections you know are you trying to say the millions of patients who filled in positive patient survey results were talking bollocks?
    There were 5 hospitals with worse standardised mortality figures than Stafford. University Hospitals Leicester was not one of those, but I know stories of many other places that back up my feeling that Stafford was not unique. I left the Labour party because of what they did to the NHS from 2001, with Milburn, Reid and Hewitt the villans.

    Private contractors are not always the answer:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/14/nhs-eye-operations-private-provider-musgrove

    I'm not sure that headlines about Bristol Eye Infirmary were the best advert for the NHS.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-189451/Neglected-patients-went-blind.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3085105.stm

    I guess it wasn't something which Danny Boyle put into the Olympic Closing Ceremony.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    Why what inflation rate you factoring in? 4.6% pa

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    Notice you cut out quite a bit there.


    But to go with what you did reply to.

    I would like to see minimum wage beat inflation you don't.

    You appear to be happy with the impact of the hated bedroom tax on people who happen to be in houses worth more than yours, no hint of envy there at all. It says a great deal about your mentality.
    Can you explain why a rise to £8 from £6.50 lags inflation

    and no I am only happy with a bedroom tax on properties over £2m so 95% of properties worth more tan mine ie all those between £251k and £1,999,999.99 do not have a bedroom tax.

    Sounds fair to me.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    edited October 2014
    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
    So disgusting that Labour was happy to impose a lower top rate of tax during most of its recent tenure.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Table 14
    Conservatives only getting 2% of 2010 LDs.

    That's 8 years of Cameroonism wasted then.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
    So disgusting that Labour was happy to impose a lower top rate of tax during most of its recent tenure.

    For 12 years or so at 40%, and barely 3 months at 50%.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    To be honest, the fact that the SDP were getting double UKIPs score 33 years ago has taken the edge off it for me...
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2014

    Full of immigrants aren't they.

    Why do people want the poor to shoulder the burden of deficit reduction?

    You seem to know very little.

    There are parts of London that were considered undesirable thirty/forty years ago, that normal working people bought into. Thanks to money, these places are now worth a packet.

    Some very ordinary working class people had a touch of luck.

    Ed wants to take it away from them. He wants to punish them.

    It really wouldn't do for an ordinary person to own an expensive house that they've worked for and purchased, would it?

    Let the green eyed monster in the core take it from them...and then the likes of millionaire Miliband, £9 million a year Balls' brother, Eton Boy Tristram can buy it.

    This act is much worse than benefit cap. It is punishing people who've stood on their own two feet.

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Danny565 said:

    More and more, I'm starting to think a Labour Party led by Alan Johnson or Andy Burnham (i.e. someone who actually sounds like a normal humanbeing) would be unbeatable next year.

    Totally, given too the way the electoral system works. Ed can of course sneak it but will head to Francois Hollande popularity territory pdq thereafter.

    We are likely heading to a sort of Oct 1974 with a weak crumbling govt on the run from day one. If they'd had the sense to elect David not Ed ( as in fairness the members did only to be overruled by the Unions) they'd be 10 points clear and home and hosed.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    Why what inflation rate you factoring in? 4.6% pa

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    Why not just stick two or three bands on top of council tax? That would be fairer IMO.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @dr_spyn
    "For 12 years or so at 40%, and barely 3 months at 50%."

    They should have bumped it up before, but at the start of the downturn it might have been tricky.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Immigrants will not come to Britain if there is social and industrial unrest, high taxes, race riots and a collapse in house prices.

    Ed Millibands policy of crashing the economy, soaking the rich and giving power back to the Unions is the only one that offers a real return to the late seventies/early eighties sick man of Europe Britain. Do it properly and we would even go back to the net outward migration of those days. Popular music would also improve!
  • IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    Nor can you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    Or increase the Pension age even further. Seems more reasonable than disenfranchising people.

    Night all.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
    Danny Blanchflower and many others have blown your Laffer Curve up your orifice.It is untaxed wealth where the real changes will be felt.The bankers can expect no mercy.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210
    Smarmeron said:

    @dr_spyn
    "For 12 years or so at 40%, and barely 3 months at 50%."

    They should have bumped it up before, but at the start of the downturn it might have been tricky.

    If it's such a key moral issue, surely they should have done it in 1997. To not have done so is, in saddened's words I think, "disgusting".

  • NinoinozNinoinoz Posts: 1,312

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    Very principled of you; a demographic doesn't vote for your party, so deny them their democratic rights.

    But nice of you to adopt a Papal Conclave eligibility criterion. Perhaps deny women the franchise while you're at it?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited October 2014
    hucks67 said:

    If UKIP continue to attract 15% + of votes, the Tories will lose many seats in England and Labour could be on for a majority with about 35% of the vote. In that situation I would think that there would be pressure to change the voting system, as FPTP would not be relevant when there are more than two strong parties.

    Yeah, like Labour would ever do that.

    Right wing voters are consigning themselves to 10-15 years out of power. Why would Labour do anything that could help them unite or weaken Lab's position?

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @foxinsoxuk
    Just like like the BMA? or is it alright for doctors to have powerful representation but not the plebs?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
    So disgusting that Labour was happy to impose a lower top rate of tax during most of its recent tenure.

    I agree it should be at least 50% for those earning over £200k pa

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag This really is not true is it either explain your logic or stop spouting drivel The Minimum wage went up to £6.50 on 1/10/14 by 1/10/19 it will be £8 that is an increase of 24% in 5 years well over 4% pa how do you make out that is fiscal drag?
  • kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    chestnut said:

    Full of immigrants aren't they.

    Why do people want the poor to shoulder the burden of deficit reduction?

    You seem to know very little.

    There are parts of London that were considered undesirable thirty/forty years ago, that normal working people bought into. Thanks to money, these places are now worth a packet.

    Some very ordinary working class people had a touch of luck.

    Ed wants to take it away from them. He wants to punish them.

    It really wouldn't do for an ordinary person to own an expensive house that they've worked for and purchased, would it?

    Let the green eyed monster in the core take it from them...and then the likes of millionaire Miliband, £9 million a year Balls' brother, Eton Boy Tristram can buy it.

    This act is much worse than benefit cap. It is punishing people who've stood on their own two feet.

    and can afford to bear their share of deficit reduction

  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    Immigrants will not come to Britain if there is social and industrial unrest, high taxes, race riots and a collapse in house prices.

    Ed Millibands policy of crashing the economy, soaking the rich and giving power back to the Unions is the only one that offers a real return to the late seventies/early eighties sick man of Europe Britain. Do it properly and we would even go back to the net outward migration of those days. Popular music would also improve!

    Immigrants would still come, the in-work benefits are a great attraction for anyone from a low wage nation.

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Smarmeron said:

    @dr_spyn
    "For 12 years tor so at 40%, and barely 3 months at 50%."

    They should have bumped it up before, but at the start of the downturn it might have been tricky.

    Surely a key question is does it actually collect any more tax? (hello Laffer curve). Don't know the answer but I suspect there's a real psychology about working half the week for the govt that incentivises folk to seriously look at legit ways of avoiding tax. Beyond that it's just nuts and will lead to brain drains or people simply working less ( bonjour M Hollande, reveillez- vous et sentez le cafe!)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I am really puzzled by these polls. I do not want to use the word "accuse" but the recent movements in the polls have been all too convenient.

    I did not think the Tories should have got a bounce just because of one speech promising 7bn of tax cuts , without telling us where it will come from.

    And, hey presto, another bounce back to Labour, again without any particular reason.

    The Survation numbers are just pie in the sky.

    The trouble with online polls is that they have too many fiddling factors .
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dr_spyn said:

    Floater said:

    Ed M has done a piece for the Observer

    Ukip is tapping into a seam of despair that Labour
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/11/ed-miliband-labour-hope-for-britains-future?CMP=twt_gu

    How is he going to tackle immigration?

    Sorry but it's bollocks.
    fair point.

    Also, they spent loads on the NHS last time they were in .... that went well didn't it.......

    Also, where does the money come from this time???
    It did go very well record low waiting lists and times. People seem to forget prior to 1997 one third of waits were over 6 months. 90% under 18 weeks in 2010

    Record high patient satisfaction. Waits for PB Tory Stafford references but patient satisfaction overall was up at 95% levels.

    Money comes from Mansion tax this time and by not giving tax cuts to higher rate tax payers
    Suppose the 1,200 in Staffs didn't get the chance to vote
    Any objective study of outcomes also shows massive improvement comparing 1997 to 2010 .
    Clearly some of the things that went on at Stafford were disgraceful but trying to extrapolate tha to other hospitals is stupid

    The other hospitals all had inspections you know are you trying to say the millions of patients who filled in positive patient survey results were talking bollocks?
    There were 5 hospitals with worse standardised mortality figures than Stafford. University Hospitals Leicester was not one of those, but I know stories of many other places that back up my feeling that Stafford was not unique. I left the Labour party because of what they did to the NHS from 2001, with Milburn, Reid and Hewitt the villans.

    Private contractors are not always the answer:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/14/nhs-eye-operations-private-provider-musgrove

    I'm not sure that headlines about Bristol Eye Infirmary were the best advert for the NHS.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-189451/Neglected-patients-went-blind.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3085105.stm

    I guess it wasn't something which Danny Boyle put into the Olympic Closing Ceremony.
    The reason for the Bristol problem was fairly directly due to the post 2001 target culture.

    There is a waiting list target for new patients, and for 18 weeks from referral to treatment. There are no targets for seeing follow up patients from treatment. It is easy to see why Bristols managers prioritised the new patients over follow ups. Stafford management had similar motivations.

    These are only the ones that have made the news.
  • saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:



    Bedroom tax introduced by Labour.

    Higher rate of tax was in place for a matter of weeks, it is currently higher under the coalition than it was for the vast majority of Labour's time

    8 pounds per hour will be lower than inflation why impose fiscal drag

    Mansion tax will be uncollectable


    Freezing gas price means that it will be frozen at a higher price than the market will bear.


    As for schooling I have no interest so will leave it alone.

    Higher rate tax was a great trap and Osborne fell right into it and hasn't really clambered out.
    Enough said. A disgusting move by a disgusting party. We don't care if it actually raises cash in a fair way as long as it traps the Tories. If you weren't so brainwashed you'd be embarrassed.
    Danny Blanchflower and many others have blown your Laffer Curve up your orifice.It is untaxed wealth where the real changes will be felt.The bankers can expect no mercy.

    That wealth will have already been taxed many times over, and will taxed for one last time when the owner of it leaves this earth.

    Unless you are Ed Miliband and family and organize a Deed of Variation to evade IHT.

    All in it together eh?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @welshowl
    The famous right wing idea that the rich are in need, and the poor get way too much?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,210

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?
    7th May dude. It's coming.

    We go through this rigmarole with every Sunday Times front page. A weekly petty personal Ed swipe there translates as bad YouGov poll on inside pages for the Tories.
    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    Why what inflation rate you factoring in? 4.6% pa

    If some people have to downgrade to sub £2m accommodation then I dont think that will be such a hardship do you. It is a sensible version of a bedroom tax.

    Notice you cut out quite a bit there.


    But to go with what you did reply to.

    I would like to see minimum wage beat inflation you don't.

    You appear to be happy with the impact of the hated bedroom tax on people who happen to be in houses worth more than yours, no hint of envy there at all. It says a great deal about your mentality.
    Can you explain why a rise to £8 from £6.50 lags inflation
    I can't quite remember what the date was by when the NMW will rise to £8.00, but if it is to do so by 2020 that is a compounded increase of 3.5%. This year it rose by just over 3% which if continued until 2020 would give £7.77, so the Labour policy is barely any different to the current Coalition policy.

  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    hucks67 said:

    If UKIP continue to attract 15% + of votes, the Tories will lose many seats in England and Labour could be on for a majority with about 35% of the vote. In that situation I would think that there would be pressure to change the voting system, as FPTP would not be relevant when there are more than two strong parties.

    So you reckon that Labour, when Labour have over 50% of the seats in Westminster for only 35% of the votes, will go and change the voting system so that they at the next election can have only 35% of the seats on 35% of the vote (losing 100 plus MPs) whilst giving UKIP many tens of seats (15% on straight proportionality would give them 97 seats)? Well I can think of at least 100 Labour MPs who would probably rebel and likely ensure that the proposals would be voted down (given the Tories would almost certainly oppose it too).
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    isam said:

    To be honest, the fact that the SDP were getting double UKIPs score 33 years ago has taken the edge off it for me...

    Focus on the silver lining.

    Imagine the headlines. UKIP win everywhere. French terrified. Angevin Empire reclaimed!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    Nor can you.
    We don't need to. The UKIP supporters are doing a service to the nation. The bas****s !
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    and can afford to bear their share of deficit reduction

    On a state pension?

    Your ignorance is staggering.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Survation has UKIP demolishing Plaid in Wales.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    According to Mike's graph [ Yougov ], the Greens are going to form the next government.
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    edited October 2014
    Speedy said:

    Christopher Hope @christopherhope

    If no deal on West Lothian Question by Nov 30, the Conservatives will end talks and develop their own plans, William Hague tells me. 2/3

    Christopher Hope @christopherhope

    Hague says the Tories will put their EVEL solution to a vote before the election. Labour will have to vote against English home rule. 3/3

    What a sudden movement, did they lose a by-election or something?
    That was the plan all along. LibDems and Labour need their feet put to the fire on EV4EL.

  • kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    perdix said:

    Immigrants will not come to Britain if there is social and industrial unrest, high taxes, race riots and a collapse in house prices.

    Ed Millibands policy of crashing the economy, soaking the rich and giving power back to the Unions is the only one that offers a real return to the late seventies/early eighties sick man of Europe Britain. Do it properly and we would even go back to the net outward migration of those days. Popular music would also improve!

    Immigrants would still come, the in-work benefits are a great attraction for anyone from a low wage nation.

    In the late seventies and early eighties there was net outward migration. We need to do significant damage to the fabric of Britain to make it undesireable for immigrants. The combination of high taxes, high unemployment and industrial decline will be hard to replicate. The IMF induced cuts would decimate the welfare state and complete the job. We can look forward to 1976 again, with Ed Miliband in the Harold Wilson role (minus the common touch!)
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    A correction required on the survation poll bar chart.
    The result is LAB 31, CON 31, UKIP 25, LD 7 (not 8) and I'm not the only one who saw the mistake:

    General Election ‏@UKELECTIONS2015 15m15 minutes ago
    Survation

    "Headline voting intention (change in brackets since last poll 14 September):

    CON 31% (NC)
    LAB 31% (-4)
    UKIP 25% (+6)
    LD 7% (-1)"

    That makes it LAB 319, CON 279, LD 18, UKIP 5 seats in the outdated electoral calculus.
    With UKIP getting 3 out of its 5 seats in Scotland!
  • These polls must surely increase the chance of further defections - they will make any move look less of a gamble especially if you are in a vulnerable seat anyway. Whilst Carswell and Reckless defected on principle (I believe) others might be more like the Vicar of Bray.
  • isam said:

    To be honest, the fact that the SDP were getting double UKIPs score 33 years ago has taken the edge off it for me...

    1) The SDP had had 29 MPs already defect to them when they got those poll ratings

    2) The Tories overcame them courtesy of the Falklands War. Dave is not going to get a Falklands moment out of Iraq or Syria. You can be pretty sure of that.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?


    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    I would like to see minimum wage beat inflation you don't.

    You appear to be happy with the impact of the hated bedroom tax on people who happen to be in houses worth more than yours, no hint of envy there at all. It says a great deal about your mentality.
    Can you explain why a rise to £8 from £6.50 lags inflation
    I can't quite remember what the date was by when the NMW will rise to £8.00, but if it is to do so by 2020 that is a compounded increase of 3.5%. This year it rose by just over 3% which if continued until 2020 would give £7.77, so the Labour policy is barely any different to the current Coalition policy.

    So it is not a fiscal drag then.

    The promise is by the end of the next Parliament so as it increases every October that means by 1/10/19 ie 5 years. That is 4.1% compounded according to me

    I think the Tories will match the £8 promise btw at GE2015
  • surbiton said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    Nor can you.
    We don't need to. The UKIP supporters are doing a service to the nation. The bas****s !
    Its nothing compared to the service we will do the nation after the general election!
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    What bizarre logic. According to the Survation poll, UKIP are taking huge chunks of votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, who haven't done anything to pacify UKIP at all.

    If voters are moving from your party to a party whose views you prefer, it's pretty absurd to move away from them views as political strategy. The reason the mainstream parties are losing their support is that they treat their voters like idiots. They pretend they'll do things to address their concerns, while only giving curtain dressing.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    isam said:

    To be honest, the fact that the SDP were getting double UKIPs score 33 years ago has taken the edge off it for me...

    1) The SDP had had 29 MPs already defect to them when they got those poll ratings

    .
    !!
    I didn't know that.
This discussion has been closed.