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  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Smarmeron said:

    @welshowl
    The famous right wing idea that the rich are in need, and the poor get way too much?

    No it's reality. Make any form of economic activity too risky, burdensome, or onerous via tax or regulation and people will do less of it or stop totally. Simples. 75% of zero is zero. 30% of something can be a lot.

    Sometimes doing the above can make sense ( tobacco fax has been increased over 30 odd years by all sides to drive smoking down via price). Do it on income tax, (and others) and we all lose.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    Nor can you.
    We don't need to. The UKIP supporters are doing a service to the nation. The bas****s !
    Its nothing compared to the service we will do the nation after the general election!
    True. It will be a great Labour government !
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Once may indicate the effect of Paisley pyjamas,twice may indicate bi-polar illness.Mr Newmark needs some help it seems.He certainly does not need further attention.The problem for Westminster in general and the Tories in particular is why he was not offered the right kind of early intervention.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Socrates said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    What bizarre logic. According to the Survation poll, UKIP are taking huge chunks of votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, who haven't done anything to pacify UKIP at all.

    If voters are moving from your party to a party whose views you prefer, it's pretty absurd to move away from them views as political strategy. The reason the mainstream parties are losing their support is that they treat their voters like idiots. They pretend they'll do things to address their concerns, while only giving curtain dressing.
    So how many MPs will UKIP have after GE2015 ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    perdix said:

    Immigrants will not come to Britain if there is social and industrial unrest, high taxes, race riots and a collapse in house prices.

    Ed Millibands policy of crashing the economy, soaking the rich and giving power back to the Unions is the only one that offers a real return to the late seventies/early eighties sick man of Europe Britain. Do it properly and we would even go back to the net outward migration of those days. Popular music would also improve!

    Immigrants would still come, the in-work benefits are a great attraction for anyone from a low wage nation.

    In the late seventies and early eighties there was net outward migration. We need to do significant damage to the fabric of Britain to make it undesireable for immigrants. The combination of high taxes, high unemployment and industrial decline will be hard to replicate. The IMF induced cuts would decimate the welfare state and complete the job. We can look forward to 1976 again, with Ed Miliband in the Harold Wilson role (minus the common touch!)
    My wife and I were part of that outward migration. It was pretty grim then. When I was back there a decade ago it was moving in that direction again - huge deficits, ever growing government.

    The politics of envy, penalizing success -the objective should be to grow the economy. Increasing taxation is unlikely to do much in that direction.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    What bizarre logic. According to the Survation poll, UKIP are taking huge chunks of votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, who haven't done anything to pacify UKIP at all.

    If voters are moving from your party to a party whose views you prefer, it's pretty absurd to move away from them views as political strategy. The reason the mainstream parties are losing their support is that they treat their voters like idiots. They pretend they'll do things to address their concerns, while only giving curtain dressing.
    So how many MPs will UKIP have after GE2015 ?
    None
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    chestnut said:

    and can afford to bear their share of deficit reduction

    On a state pension?

    Your ignorance is staggering.
    Why should they live on a state pension in a £2m + house ? Yet you are advising people to leave houses with 3 bedrooms to a 2 or 1 bedroom house to avoid the bedroom tax.
  • surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    Nor can you.
    We don't need to. The UKIP supporters are doing a service to the nation. The bas****s !
    Its nothing compared to the service we will do the nation after the general election!
    True. It will be a great Labour government !
    Oh dear normally the delusions don't set in until the third year of their final term but it looks like Labour's are still hanging over from 2009.......
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    What bizarre logic. According to the Survation poll, UKIP are taking huge chunks of votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, who haven't done anything to pacify UKIP at all.

    If voters are moving from your party to a party whose views you prefer, it's pretty absurd to move away from them views as political strategy. The reason the mainstream parties are losing their support is that they treat their voters like idiots. They pretend they'll do things to address their concerns, while only giving curtain dressing.
    So how many MPs will UKIP have after GE2015 ?
    Probably between about 5 and 20. But it will be the election after that that they really surge.
  • isam said:

    To be honest, the fact that the SDP were getting double UKIPs score 33 years ago has taken the edge off it for me...

    1) The SDP had had 29 MPs already defect to them when they got those poll ratings

    .
    !!
    I didn't know that.

    I know I only remembered the Gang of Four until I read about it the other week.
  • kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Apart from your appalling grammar, are you trying to tell me that the taxpayer is not paying part of your pension? If so why did you state the other day that 10%?of the vast NHS budget goes on paying it's pension liabilities? Surely if the taxpayer did not contribute to your pension then the full £100 Billion plus that the taxpayer coughs up would go to providing services?

    Also other than the public sector can you name me any other industry where an employee can retire at 54 with a super gold plated pension, Premier League footballers aside?

    Yet you want to deny anyone over 66 a vote?

    Someone questioned your ignorance earlier and they were right to do so, you are an unbelievably dim hypocrite.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    Speedy UNS is now clearly outdated, on these numbers and if it wins Rochester clearly with Labour in a poor third in a seat it held until 2010, UKIP could well hold the balance of power next year as Farage forecast
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    surbiton said:

    chestnut said:

    and can afford to bear their share of deficit reduction

    On a state pension?

    Your ignorance is staggering.
    Why should they live on a state pension in a £2m + house ? Yet you are advising people to leave houses with 3 bedrooms to a 2 or 1 bedroom house to avoid the bedroom tax.
    People who earn the money to pay the rent can live in a house with as many bedrooms as they like. It is only if they are claiming state benefits we ask them to cut their cloth according to their means. I think if you claim benefits, you have the moral obligation to mitigate the cost to the taxpayer and not claim money you don't have to.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Apart from your appalling grammar, are you trying to tell me that the taxpayer is not paying part of your pension? If so why did you state the other day that 10%?of the vast NHS budget goes on paying it's pension liabilities? Surely if the taxpayer did not contribute to your pension then the full £100 Billion plus that the taxpayer coughs up would go to providing services?

    Also other than the public sector can you name me any other industry where an employee can retire at 54 with a super gold plated pension, Premier League footballers aside?

    Yet you want to deny anyone over 66 a vote?

    Someone questioned your ignorance earlier and they were right to do so, you are an unbelievably dim hypocrite.
    Whats your detales Nigel wot grama
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    hucks67 said:

    If UKIP continue to attract 15% + of votes, the Tories will lose many seats in England and Labour could be on for a majority with about 35% of the vote. In that situation I would think that there would be pressure to change the voting system, as FPTP would not be relevant when there are more than two strong parties.

    So you reckon that Labour, when Labour have over 50% of the seats in Westminster for only 35% of the votes, will go and change the voting system so that they at the next election can have only 35% of the seats on 35% of the vote (losing 100 plus MPs) whilst giving UKIP many tens of seats (15% on straight proportionality would give them 97 seats)? Well I can think of at least 100 Labour MPs who would probably rebel and likely ensure that the proposals would be voted down (given the Tories would almost certainly oppose it too).
    It's the Tories who might ultimately buckle on PR. They know that under FPTP Labour will always be one of the two largest parties. Their own position is far less secure [their vote distribution is a bit closer to a third-party's than Labour's], and risk being eclipsed. It wasn't a million miles away from happening 1997-2005 versus the LibDems, and if in 1983, perchance, the Lab-Con voteshares had been reversed, then also...
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    saddened said:

    BenM said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    BenM said:

    Front page of the Sunday Times makes great reading for UKIP and appalling for Ed Miliband

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BzsXSUyCYAEV3rz.jpg

    David Cameron won't have made it to the petty anti Miliband swipe. His bowels would have emptied at the headline.

    Cameron is as good as out.
    LOL. If that is a "petty swipe", please tell us what a serious indictment of Miliband's leadership would look like. And, while you are there, whether there are American tanks in Baghdad?

    "Cameron is as good as out" - do you mean he is going to be deposed? Care to indicate when, roughly?


    Still not thought of a Labour policy?
    Go to their website. http://www.labour.org.uk
    You're the one raising the issue of policy, give us your two most impressive.
    I like £8 minimum wage and extra money for NHS from the mansion tax and other changes for the better off.

    Cant understand it when people prefer the taxpayer to subsidise rubbish employers.
    Why do you want the minimum wage to lag behind inflation as per the Labour policy?

    Explain how the mansion tax will

    A be collected

    B is less harsh than the hated bedroom tax when it forces people to sell up to pay it.
    I would like to see minimum wage beat inflation you don't.

    You appear to be happy with the impact of the hated bedroom tax on people who happen to be in houses worth more than yours, no hint of envy there at all. It says a great deal about your mentality.
    Can you explain why a rise to £8 from £6.50 lags inflation
    I can't quite remember what the date was by when the NMW will rise to £8.00, but if it is to do so by 2020 that is a compounded increase of 3.5%. This year it rose by just over 3% which if continued until 2020 would give £7.77, so the Labour policy is barely any different to the current Coalition policy.

    So it is not a fiscal drag then.

    The promise is by the end of the next Parliament so as it increases every October that means by 1/10/19 ie 5 years. That is 4.1% compounded according to me

    I think the Tories will match the £8 promise btw at GE2015
    By the end of the next Parliament could mean they don't put it up all the way until April 2020, but they and the Coalition are not far apart.

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited October 2014

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited October 2014
    surbiton said:

    Why should they live on a state pension in a £2m + house ?

    Because they've paid for both. Are you in such a rush that waiting for them to die is too long before fleecing their bereaved with tax?

    Interesting chain of thought though.

    When does £2 million go down to £ 1 million? How about £500,000? £250,000?

    "Why Should they live in a £250,00- house with a state pension?" Put them all in hovels.





  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    These Tory millionaires have ripped off the average local government pensioner,largely women,which is £68 a week,by an average of £25,000 by their vile Tory trick in Osborne's 1st budget in 2010 of changing the system from an RPI system to a CPI system.This is Tory trickery and jiggery-pokery of the worst order.Teachers will have had,on average £40,000 stolen from them.And yet the Tories still come back for more.Firefighters are resisting despite lock-outs from the Tory Mayor.The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    ManofKent (earlier) Have to disagree on voting, look at the influence of Perot and Nader in the US for instance as 3rd Party Candidates. Though as I said I would agree to a second ballot vote
  • In other news Owen Patterson 'goes nuclear' on Energy

    Scrap the Climate Change Act to keep the lights on, says Owen Paterson
    The Climate Change Act 2008, which ties Britain into stringent environmental measures, should be suspended - and then scrapped - if other countries refuse to agree legally binding targets, says Owen Paterson MP


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/11156113/Scrap-the-Climate-Change-Act-to-keep-the-lights-on-says-Owen-Paterson.html

    So now Tories are calling for another UKIP policy to be adopted
  • kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    These Tory millionaires have ripped off the average local government pensioner,largely women,which is £68 a week,by an average of £25,000 by their vile Tory trick in Osborne's 1st budget in 2010 of changing the system from an RPI system to a CPI system.This is Tory trickery and jiggery-pokery of the worst order.Teachers will have had,on average £40,000 stolen from them.And yet the Tories still come back for more.Firefighters are resisting despite lock-outs from the Tory Mayor.The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

    Please remind us what Gordon Brown did to a pension system that was the envy of the world.

    Also please tell us what he did with that money.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    chestnut said:

    surbiton said:

    Why should they live on a state pension in a £2m + house ?

    Because they've paid for both. Are you in such a rush that waiting for them to die is too long before fleecing their bereaved with tax?

    Interesting chain of thought though.

    When does £2 million go down to £ 1 million? How about £500,000? £250,000?

    "Why Should they live in a £250,00- house with a state pension?" Put them all in hovels.

    I imagine that in London even a multi-family hovel might be worth 2 million :-)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    These Tory millionaires have ripped off the average local government pensioner,largely women,which is £68 a week,by an average of £25,000 by their vile Tory trick in Osborne's 1st budget in 2010 of changing the system from an RPI system to a CPI system.This is Tory trickery and jiggery-pokery of the worst order.Teachers will have had,on average £40,000 stolen from them.And yet the Tories still come back for more.Firefighters are resisting despite lock-outs from the Tory Mayor.The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

    Two words: Gordon Brown.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Frank Field or some nutter !
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Please let it be Simon Danczuk
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    Annuity rates are shite agreed! Oh I'm bloody jealous of you but I don't begrudge it a moment. You signed up to the system you got paid. Fair dos. Not your problem if the system was/is bonkers.
  • kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    They haven't named them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    These Tory millionaires have ripped off the average local government pensioner,largely women,which is £68 a week,by an average of £25,000 by their vile Tory trick in Osborne's 1st budget in 2010 of changing the system from an RPI system to a CPI system.This is Tory trickery and jiggery-pokery of the worst order.Teachers will have had,on average £40,000 stolen from them.And yet the Tories still come back for more.Firefighters are resisting despite lock-outs from the Tory Mayor.The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

    Please remind us what Gordon Brown did to a pension system that was the envy of the world.

    Also please tell us what he did with that money.
    Are you above my new proposed maximum voting age?

    How much tax did you contribute to your state pension

    When did you get it

    Now think about the same for a 16 yr old
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Could be the tipping point for UKIP to enter the big league if it happens.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    RodCrosby said:

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Could be the tipping point for UKIP to enter the big league if it happens.
    Only if they resign and win a by-election IMO
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    chestnut said:

    surbiton said:

    Why should they live on a state pension in a £2m + house ?

    Because they've paid for both. Are you in such a rush that waiting for them to die is too long before fleecing their bereaved with tax?

    Interesting chain of thought though.

    When does £2 million go down to £ 1 million? How about £500,000? £250,000?

    "Why Should they live in a £250,00- house with a state pension?" Put them all in hovels.

    No. Sell it and move into £1.5m house. Pocket the £500k.It is called releasing the equity.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Please let it be Simon Danczuk
    No. It'll probably be Chuka Umunna. He wants to sit with the cool kids.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

    That warmth you feel is either -

    a - me basking in the warmth of your admiration and respect, or

    b - you just peed in your pants :-)
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014

    RodCrosby said:

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Could be the tipping point for UKIP to enter the big league if it happens.
    Only if they resign and win a by-election IMO
    After Heywood & Middleton, not such a big ask...

    I'm sure there must be decent people sitting in all parties thinking. "What is the point of the Lib/Lab/Con party?"
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    These Tory millionaires have ripped off the average local government pensioner,largely women,which is £68 a week,by an average of £25,000 by their vile Tory trick in Osborne's 1st budget in 2010 of changing the system from an RPI system to a CPI system.This is Tory trickery and jiggery-pokery of the worst order.Teachers will have had,on average £40,000 stolen from them.And yet the Tories still come back for more.Firefighters are resisting despite lock-outs from the Tory Mayor.The Tories then pass the money on to the spivs and speculators you find here on Pb.

    Please remind us what Gordon Brown did to a pension system that was the envy of the world.

    Also please tell us what he did with that money.
    Are you above my new proposed maximum voting age?

    How much tax did you contribute to your state pension

    When did you get it

    Now think about the same for a 16 yr old
    Yeah, but a 16 year old today is likely to live to be 95. Yesterday's maths does not remotely apply. They will pay loads more into the system as the system will have to reflect the reality of the later 21st century and not cling to a 65 retirement shibboleth set in 1944 ( I think ) when the average life expectancy was 66.( ie one year more).
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    if labour lose a by-election to UKIP they are no longer just the party of disaffected tories, it will be the momentum they need and will surely guarantee them a voice in the live debates at GE
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    But when if came to taking a decision to retire early, you were deciding 'not to work for Andrew Lansley'. Not deciding not to serve the patients of the NHS. Funny how that change of perspective happened at just the right time for you.

  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    There were 19 Labour MPs who voted for an EU referendum in 2011

    "Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley),
    Rosie Cooper (Lancashire West),
    Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North),
    Jon Cruddas (Dagenham & Rainham),
    John Cryer (Leyton & Wanstead),
    Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West),
    Natascha Engel (Derbyshire North East),
    Frank Field (Birkenhead),
    Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Hall Green),
    Kate Hoey (Vauxhall),
    Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North),
    Steve McCabe (Birmingham Selly Oak),
    John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington),
    Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby),
    Dennis Skinner (Bolsover),
    Andrew Smith (Oxford East),
    Graham Stringer (Blackley & Broughton),
    Gisela Stuart (Birmingham Edgbaston),
    Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)."

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/oct/25/mp-voted-for-eu-referendum
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    So that's a yes then. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. So did I . The difference being I understand that the money that pays my pension (from the age of 50) is earned by people in the private sector. Something you seem unable to work out.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Could be the tipping point for UKIP to enter the big league if it happens.
    Only if they resign and win a by-election IMO
    After Heywood & Middleton, not such a big ask...

    I'm sure there must be decent people sitting in all parties thinking. "What is the point of the Lib/Lab/Con party?"
    I think Field would lose as UKIP in Birkenhead not sure who would win Rochdale possibly UKIP
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited October 2014
    I think UKIP has become the public saying to all the main parties - a plague on all your houses
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    So that's a yes then. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. So did I . The difference being I understand that the money that pays my pension (from the age of 50) is earned by people in the private sector. Something you seem unable to work out.
    You think I am embarrassed?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    It's Nicholas Jackson!!!

    Mark Reckless (@MarkReckless)
    10/10/2014 19:56
    Delighted to welcome Nicholas Jackson from the Rochester and Strood Labour party over to us in UKIP pic.twitter.com/5q6SREOnae
  • HYUFD said:

    ManofKent (earlier) Have to disagree on voting, look at the influence of Perot and Nader in the US for instance as 3rd Party Candidates. Though as I said I would agree to a second ballot vote

    Sorry I don't see the relevance. We were discussing turnout (and you specifically referred to 2012) being improved by ditching FPTP which I pointed out it wouldn't have been because Obama had a majority in the first ballot. Now given the elections you now refer to produced lower turnouts than 2012 I don't understand what point you are trying to make with that?

    You are also failing to recognise that it is a federal election. Unless you are going to trample all over the devolved status of each of the 50 states and undertake the greatest political centralisation I suspect since the US Civil War I don't think some sort of PR is a starter.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    So that's a yes then. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. So did I . The difference being I understand that the money that pays my pension (from the age of 50) is earned by people in the private sector. Something you seem unable to work out.
    You think I am embarrassed?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean

    It does sound that way to be honest.

    Working for the NHS is nothing to be embarassed about.

    I've had several bad experiences with the NHS, but that's hardly your problem, unless you lived in Yorkshire 10-15 years ago.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    ?
    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    So that's a yes then. It's nothing to be embarrassed about. So did I . The difference being I understand that the money that pays my pension (from the age of 50) is earned by people in the private sector. Something you seem unable to work out.
    You think I am embarrassed?
    I think you're a bit dim in not understanding how lucky you are to be in receipt of an outstanding pension funded by the private sector. I'm in the same position but have moved on to work in the private sector while being paid a civil service pension. Believe me my colleagues are not going to get anything like what I get when they finish, mainly because they pay huge sums of tax for my pension, that I started drawing at age 50. You need to spend a little bit of time comparing what you get, compared to the private sector.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Could be the tipping point for UKIP to enter the big league if it happens.
    Only if they resign and win a by-election IMO
    After Heywood & Middleton, not such a big ask...

    I'm sure there must be decent people sitting in all parties thinking. "What is the point of the Lib/Lab/Con party?"
    Indeed. Imagine if Jim Dobbins hadn't died, he'd defected. UKIP would probably have won.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    For BJO, as the reply thread is to long.


    I think you're a bit dim in not understanding how lucky you are to be in receipt of an outstanding pension funded by the private sector. I'm in the same position but have moved on to work in the private sector while being paid a civil service pension. Believe me my colleagues are not going to get anything like what I get when they finish, mainly because they pay huge sums of tax for my pension, that I started drawing at age 50. You need to spend a little bit of time comparing what you get, compared to the private sector.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited October 2014
    saddened said:

    For BJO, as the reply thread is to (sic) long.


    I think you're a bit dim in not understanding how lucky you are to be in receipt of an outstanding pension funded by the private sector. I'm in the same position but have moved on to work in the private sector while being paid a civil service pension. Believe me my colleagues are not going to get anything like what I get when they finish, mainly because they pay huge sums of tax for my pension, that I started drawing at age 50. You need to spend a little bit of time comparing what you get, compared to the private sector.

    I have a friend who is a retired USAF colonel. He started receiving his pension this year. He was convinced he'd paid for it and it took a fairly long lunchtime conversation involving scribbling on napkins before he understood that he is living it large courtesy of private sector taxpayers.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Seeing as it's the Saturday night Roly Poly blog, and ukip have had a good week, I'll leave you with this

    http://youtu.be/zllH86e-DFc
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    bigjohnowls - you do have the fox without a tail air of a man going out early on bad back retirement?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Tim_B said:

    saddened said:

    For BJO, as the reply thread is to (sic) long.


    I think you're a bit dim in not understanding how lucky you are to be in receipt of an outstanding pension funded by the private sector. I'm in the same position but have moved on to work in the private sector while being paid a civil service pension. Believe me my colleagues are not going to get anything like what I get when they finish, mainly because they pay huge sums of tax for my pension, that I started drawing at age 50. You need to spend a little bit of time comparing what you get, compared to the private sector.

    I have a friend who is a retired USAF colonel. He started receiving his pension this year. He was convinced he'd paid for it and it took a fairly long lunchtime conversation involving scribbling on napkins before he understood that he is living it large courtesy of private sector taxpayers.
    Correct. I joined the Army at 16, left at 27, worked for the police until 30, worked for a government department until 50, retired with a lump sum of 115,000 tax free and a pension of just over 15,000 per year, which becomes index linked next year on my 55 birthday. I know how incredibly fortunate I am. Sadly lots of tools have no concept of how well they have been treated by the state. These tools honestly think they deserve this because they have "served" the patients of the NHS and have no concept of what an impact it has on private sector workers..
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Ninoinoz said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    Very principled of you; a demographic doesn't vote for your party, so deny them their democratic rights.

    But nice of you to adopt a Papal Conclave eligibility criterion. Perhaps deny women the franchise while you're at it?
    Well, Ed does have a women problem
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    I think we are starting to see evidence that UKIP is damaging Lab relatively more than it was before.

    It's still not damaging Lab as much as Con but the differential is narrowing.

    I think part of this is nothing to do with UKIP - rather it is the weak Miliband performance making normal Lab supporters more tempted to consider UKIP.

    If Cameron can continue to perform strongly vs Miliband then he may be able to close the differential further - by getting some "Con UKIP" supporters back to Con, plus the more Miliband is damaged the more chance of "Lab UKIP" waverers ultimately going UKIP.

    In both cases I think it is very likely we could see major movements in the final 24 hours pre GE - there are going to be lots of Con UKIP and Lab UKIP waverers who may well change their minds at the very last minute.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,880
    edited October 2014
    ManofKent The elections in question were still conducted under FPTP so that does not refute the point and the winner in both elections got less than 50%. Of course it would be difficult to implement, but states could agree to US presidential election being conducted on a second ballot basis as in France, same could go for US congress elections
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    MikeL said:

    I think we are starting to see evidence that UKIP is damaging Lab relatively more than it was before.

    It's still not damaging Lab as much as Con but the differential is narrowing.

    I think part of this is nothing to do with UKIP - rather it is the weak Miliband performance making normal Lab supporters more tempted to consider UKIP.

    If Cameron can continue to perform strongly vs Miliband then he may be able to close the differential further - by getting some "Con UKIP" supporters back to Con, plus the more Miliband is damaged the more chance of "Lab UKIP" waverers ultimately going UKIP.

    In both cases I think it is very likely we could see major movements in the final 24 hours pre GE - there are going to be lots of Con UKIP and Lab UKIP waverers who may well change their minds at the very last minute.

    I think you better sit down because the Survation poll suggests the opposite. John Curtice reckons based on the rise of UKIP in the south they could take 100 seats off the Tories based on this latest poll...(the MOS link is in my last post).
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    SeanT said:

    saddened said:

    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    UKIP 128 seats surely that should be 1 seat. 28 for LD

    Sounds fair to me after all the oldie demographics are too far in UKIPS favour about time we had a maximum voting age IMO

    On what grounds? If people are adults with functioning mental capacity what reason to deny them?

    The country cant afford the gold plated pension brigade to outvote those who pay their pensions by the extent that is happening now IMO

    Voting age 16 to 66 I reckon
    FFS I've heard it all now.

    From what I have read you retired early after years in the NHS, you are the one with the gold plated pension that we all pay for. Why did you retire early anyway?

    So people who have paid their taxes and NI all their working lives are to be denied their vote because they are pensioners and may not vote how you want them to.

    And you call other people fascists?
    Where?
    Why did you retire early? At what age? And why are we paying for it?
    Because I was not working for Lansley and could afford not to.

    54

    Your not I paid up to 15% of my wages for 33 years into a pension scheme.

    Your turn now.

    Er .... given current indexed linked annuity rates for 54 yr olds ...... Where can I sign on for your pension deal? Like wowser.... Enjoy. You won the lottery 33 years paying in notwithstanding. Given a £20k index linked pension at 65 ( 65 not 54) is about £ 630k as a lump sum to buy I imagine your deal is close to a million. ( I confess in making some salary assumptions there but the ratios apply whatever)
    Annuity rates are shite arent they I had a £200k personal pension pot that makes up a small amount of my pension the 33/80ths of salary actuarilly reduced makes up most of it.

    Did somebody say something earlier about envy being a bad thing.
    You spent your entire life working for the state didn't you?
    I dedicated my life to serving the patients of the NHS if thats what you mean
    I have dedicated my life to serving my f*cking readers. And I have no pension, no sick pay, no secure salary. Unlike you.

    The puffed-up, putrid, moral self regard of the public sector really is something to behold.

    UGH.
    It's tragic, he honestly believes he is morally superior and therefore deserving of a better pension than the people who work to pay his.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,564
    A partial answer on the poll differences is that Survation's poll with YouGov's assumptions gives Lab 27.5, Con 25 and UKIP 21.2. We know from previous polling that Survation gives UKIP much higher scores, possibly because they name them explicitly and I think most pollsters still don't (though at this stage they probably should). So in combination you get a similar Labour poll lead but with UKIP much higher.

    What tweaks the main parties level with Survation is lower Labour certainty to vote (which isn't normally measured by YouGov, partly because certainty fluctuates more than VI).
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014
    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...


    It's 1981 all over again, with a twist.

    Then, change was required because the alternatives were too extreme. Now, change is required because there is no difference in the alternatives.

    Then, the SDP was credible because it had heavyweight politicos on board. Now, UKIP is credible because it abjures and abhors the political class...
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited October 2014

    MikeL said:

    I think we are starting to see evidence that UKIP is damaging Lab relatively more than it was before.

    It's still not damaging Lab as much as Con but the differential is narrowing.

    I think part of this is nothing to do with UKIP - rather it is the weak Miliband performance making normal Lab supporters more tempted to consider UKIP.

    If Cameron can continue to perform strongly vs Miliband then he may be able to close the differential further - by getting some "Con UKIP" supporters back to Con, plus the more Miliband is damaged the more chance of "Lab UKIP" waverers ultimately going UKIP.

    In both cases I think it is very likely we could see major movements in the final 24 hours pre GE - there are going to be lots of Con UKIP and Lab UKIP waverers who may well change their minds at the very last minute.

    I think you better sit down because the Survation poll suggests the opposite. John Curtice reckons based on the rise of UKIP in the south they could take 100 seats off the Tories based on this latest poll...(the MOS link is in my last post).
    That's based on regional subsamples which are meaningless in a 1,000 total sample poll.

    We have UKIP on 25 and Lab and Con overall level.

    Look at the Mail on Sunday's own graphic to see the changes.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited October 2014
    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    I do wonder the more the metro liberal leftie elite that run tv, film, etc talk about UKIP, the more it seems their popularity grows. Panel shows now are obsessed with the anti-UKIP "jokes" (the Tories hardly get a bashing these days in comparison..seems like the order is UKIP, Ed Miliband, Tory, in the bashing stakes), e.g this week on Mock the Week, in one round was "things never to be heard at a party political conference", I would say 8 out of 10 of the gags were aimed at UKIP with the standard racist / anti-immigrant / homophobia slurs.

    Seems like if anything they are kinda of in weird way giving them the oxygen of free publicity. Same with the HIV hit job, all it seemed to do was bring to public awareness of an issue, which your Guardian types recoil with horror that somebody would utter such words, when it seems actually a large percentage of the population see nothing wrong with the suggestion.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...


    It's 1981 all over again, with a twist.

    Then, change was required because the alternatives were too extreme. Now, change is required because there is no difference in the alternatives.

    Then, the SDP was credible because it had heavyweight politicos on board. Now, UKIP is credible because it abjures and abhors the political class...
    It's more like Maggie and Keith Joseph again really. Left wing consensus gets to the point of absurd misrule, and a revolt on the right is required to sort things out. The difference is that time was a neo-liberal insurgency within the Tory party, that eventually ran aground as Thatcher was out-manned and eventually knifed by the wets, this time it is nothing to do with the Tory party, and there is nothing the Clarke faction can do to subvert or undermine it.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    isam said:

    surbiton said:

    Socrates said:

    IOS said:

    Well what do you know.

    Cameron's attempts to appeal to UKIP voters a disaster

    When will they learn? They cannot pacify the UKIP threat.

    What bizarre logic. According to the Survation poll, UKIP are taking huge chunks of votes from Labour and the Lib Dems, who haven't done anything to pacify UKIP at all.

    If voters are moving from your party to a party whose views you prefer, it's pretty absurd to move away from them views as political strategy. The reason the mainstream parties are losing their support is that they treat their voters like idiots. They pretend they'll do things to address their concerns, while only giving curtain dressing.
    So how many MPs will UKIP have after GE2015 ?
    None
    Reading some of the crap on here I begin to find myself hoping for a UKIP surge.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    Across Europe, but especially here and in France the parallels with the 1930s are incredible. As the recession ends populism and fascism come to the fore. UKIP reflect popular frustrations, but belie the simple truth that the only way for people to succeed is to make a real effort to do so and not to seek a scapegoat, be it immigrants or, as in the 1930s, a small minority.

    UKIP support is coming from those who are frustrated; but the reality is that they are frustrated by their own failures and shortcomings and woe betide the politician who has the courage to tell them that.

    The should be no need for immigration at the levels we are experiencing, but our failure to properly educate or the failure of many of our citizens to seek or value a proper education makes it inevitable.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,821
    SeanT said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...
    I think that's right. What's more, UKIP have emerged - or been thrust into prominence - at exactly the correct time. Cf Salmond and the indyref.

    Do I think 45% of Scots want independence from the UK? No. I doubt that more than a third of Scots actually want this, but there is such disdain for ordinary politicians, such hatred of Westminster and London, such contempt for things-as-they-are, people are prepared to Vote for the Apocalypse in the vain hope it might be better than Reality, and also - more importantly - to stick up two fingers to the Powers That Be. And the referendum gave Scots an exceptional and unique opportunity to REALLY frighten the poshos down south.

    Same goes for UKIP. In the past UKIP was a wasted vote. However, a UKIP vote now clearly and blatantly scares Westminster politicians, and menaces the status quo. Bonanza!

    In that situation you can expect UKIP to GAIN support, as all those who want to affront the hated London liberal Establishment (without being a nasty BNP-er) seize their chance.

    On present polls, I can see UKIP getting 15% in the GE, now, and seizing 20 seats in the south, despite FPTP.
    YES -Quite right on Scotland I believe. Even Malcolm G will admit as such when you question him.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    EBOLA - Ed Belongs Outside a Labour Administration
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    kjohnw said:

    anyone know who the Labour MP is who is wanting to defect to UKIP on front of Sunday Times?

    Please let it be Simon Danczuk
    He talks far to much sense to be in Labour.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    I do wonder the more the metro liberal leftie elite that run tv, film, etc talk about UKIP, the more it seems their popularity grows. Panel shows now are obsessed with the anti-UKIP "jokes" (the Tories hardly get a bashing these days in comparison..seems like the order is UKIP, Ed Miliband, Tory, in the bashing stakes), e.g this week on Mock the Week, in one round was "things never to be heard at a party political conference", I would say 8 out of 10 of the gags were aimed at UKIP with the standard racist / anti-immigrant / homophobia slurs.

    Seems like if anything they are kinda of in weird way giving them the oxygen of free publicity. Same with the HIV hit job, all it seemed to do was bring to public awareness of an issue, which your Guardian types recoil with horror that somebody would utter such words, when it seems actually a large percentage of the population see nothing wrong with the suggestion.
    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...


    It's 1981 all over again, with a twist.

    Then, change was required because the alternatives were too extreme. Now, change is required because there is no difference in the alternatives.

    Then, the SDP was credible because it had heavyweight politicos on board. Now, UKIP is credible because it abjures and abhors the political class...
    But there is an absurdity to the whole thing.

    It is surely obvious that whoever is in power - ie Lab, Con or even UKIP majority (or any coalition combination) - there is no chance at all of the Government having any impact at all on 95% of the lives of 95% of people.

    No Government is in any position to make any significant change that will affect many people - even if they wanted to attempt to do so.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    I do wonder the more the metro liberal leftie elite that run tv, film, etc talk about UKIP, the more it seems their popularity grows. Panel shows now are obsessed with the anti-UKIP "jokes" (the Tories hardly get a bashing these days in comparison..seems like the order is UKIP, Ed Miliband, Tory, in the bashing stakes), e.g this week on Mock the Week, in one round was "things never to be heard at a party political conference", I would say 8 out of 10 of the gags were aimed at UKIP with the standard racist / anti-immigrant / homophobia slurs.

    Seems like if anything they are kinda of in weird way giving them the oxygen of free publicity. Same with the HIV hit job, all it seemed to do was bring to public awareness of an issue, which your Guardian types recoil with horror that somebody would utter such words, when it seems actually a large percentage of the population see nothing wrong with the suggestion.
    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    As I've said before on here, the BBC should move to the model of PBS here, hold fund raisers about 3 times a year, and those who want to can fund it.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...


    It's 1981 all over again, with a twist.

    Then, change was required because the alternatives were too extreme. Now, change is required because there is no difference in the alternatives.

    Then, the SDP was credible because it had heavyweight politicos on board. Now, UKIP is credible because it abjures and abhors the political class...
    But there is an absurdity to the whole thing.

    It is surely obvious that whoever is in power - ie Lab, Con or even UKIP majority (or any coalition combination) - there is no chance at all of the Government having any impact at all on 95% of the lives of 95% of people.

    No Government is in any position to make any significant change that will affect many people - even if they wanted to attempt to do so.
    Shh... or you'll make people lose faith in "democracy"!
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    Fenman said:



    The should be no need for immigration at the levels we are experiencing, but our failure to properly educate or the failure of many of our citizens to seek or value a proper education makes it inevitable.

    Our failure has been to make it acceptable for people to be as well off turning down jobs that are below them, and staying on benefits as it is to take those jobs and use them as a platform to improve their lives.

    What chance does a member of a family which is second or third generation unemployed have against someone who has travelled across Europe to take on a bottom rung of the ladder job, which often will lead on to better things if enough effort is put into it.
  • Fenman said:

    Across Europe, but especially here and in France the parallels with the 1930s are incredible. As the recession ends populism and fascism come to the fore. UKIP reflect popular frustrations, but belie the simple truth that the only way for people to succeed is to make a real effort to do so and not to seek a scapegoat, be it immigrants or, as in the 1930s, a small minority.

    UKIP support is coming from those who are frustrated; but the reality is that they are frustrated by their own failures and shortcomings and woe betide the politician who has the courage to tell them that.

    The should be no need for immigration at the levels we are experiencing, but our failure to properly educate or the failure of many of our citizens to seek or value a proper education makes it inevitable.

    You are utterly ridiculous....
  • RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    I do wonder the more the metro liberal leftie elite that run tv, film, etc talk about UKIP, the more it seems their popularity grows. Panel shows now are obsessed with the anti-UKIP "jokes" (the Tories hardly get a bashing these days in comparison..seems like the order is UKIP, Ed Miliband, Tory, in the bashing stakes), e.g this week on Mock the Week, in one round was "things never to be heard at a party political conference", I would say 8 out of 10 of the gags were aimed at UKIP with the standard racist / anti-immigrant / homophobia slurs.

    Seems like if anything they are kinda of in weird way giving them the oxygen of free publicity. Same with the HIV hit job, all it seemed to do was bring to public awareness of an issue, which your Guardian types recoil with horror that somebody would utter such words, when it seems actually a large percentage of the population see nothing wrong with the suggestion.
    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    I do wonder the more the metro liberal leftie elite that run tv, film, etc talk about UKIP, the more it seems their popularity grows. Panel shows now are obsessed with the anti-UKIP "jokes" (the Tories hardly get a bashing these days in comparison..seems like the order is UKIP, Ed Miliband, Tory, in the bashing stakes), e.g this week on Mock the Week, in one round was "things never to be heard at a party political conference", I would say 8 out of 10 of the gags were aimed at UKIP with the standard racist / anti-immigrant / homophobia slurs.

    Seems like if anything they are kinda of in weird way giving them the oxygen of free publicity. Same with the HIV hit job, all it seemed to do was bring to public awareness of an issue, which your Guardian types recoil with horror that somebody would utter such words, when it seems actually a large percentage of the population see nothing wrong with the suggestion.
    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Is the BBC 'loved' like the NHS is allegedly 'loved'?
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Assume I'm completely stupid - something I know won't take much effort on your part.

    As I understand it UKIP is for -

    1 protecting borders and controlling immigration

    2 Leave the EU.

    Surely many Conservatives would be in favor of both of these.
    UKIP, more than anything, are becoming viewed as the only viable agents of change...


    It's 1981 all over again, with a twist.

    Then, change was required because the alternatives were too extreme. Now, change is required because there is no difference in the alternatives.

    Then, the SDP was credible because it had heavyweight politicos on board. Now, UKIP is credible because it abjures and abhors the political class...
    But there is an absurdity to the whole thing.

    It is surely obvious that whoever is in power - ie Lab, Con or even UKIP majority (or any coalition combination) - there is no chance at all of the Government having any impact at all on 95% of the lives of 95% of people.

    No Government is in any position to make any significant change that will affect many people - even if they wanted to attempt to do so.
    Oh I don't know. One of UKIP's aspirations is for the Government to have less influence on voters lives. Surely that is feasible?

    Of course if Westminster doesn't buck it's ideas up there are other considerations that will potentially influence 95% of voters such as the lights going out and energy being effectively rationed

    Scrap the Climate Change Act to keep the lights on, says Owen Paterson

    The Climate Change Act 2008, which ties Britain into stringent environmental measures, should be suspended - and then scrapped - if other countries refuse to agree legally binding targets, says Owen Paterson MP


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/11156113/Scrap-the-Climate-Change-Act-to-keep-the-lights-on-says-Owen-Paterson.html
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited October 2014
    Tim_B said:

    Is the BBC 'loved' like the NHS is allegedly 'loved'?

    I don't think the fear factor is in play...i.e as soon as anybody tries to alter the NHS in any way, we get hour after hour of if anybody touches it, it will be like the US healthcare system (as if that is the only other system on the planet), and it is expensive, and fails the poor, yadda yadda yadda...

    What fear can you put up about altering the telly tax? Your telly will be like the US? Given we now watch loads of US tv, both on mainstream, satellite and increasingly netflix, and Sky do the best sports coverage and increasingly spending huge sums on specialist arts programming. Plus, kids and adults, already just stream huge amounts of content (legally and illegally).

    It is apple and oranges. Change to one can play on fears and emotions of a sicked love one not getting health care vs whats the telly tonight luv, oh I don't like that show.

    Plus, tv is changing, tv tax or no tv tax. The license system isn't fit for purpose, anybody who doesn't want to pay can get away with not paying.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014
    Tim_B said:

    Is the BBC 'loved' like the NHS is allegedly 'loved'?

    Only in the Stockholm Syndrome sense of "loved".

    I refuse point-blank to contribute to the seven-figure salaries of aments spewing their Leftist propaganda and bile from the multi-culti paradise of Londonistan.

    I'll gladly go to jail, if necessary.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I still think the only Lab MP I can see as a potential defector is Kate Hoey, and she wouldn't have a chance of holding her seat for UKIP.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
    Cobblers. Maybe in the days when the BBC was the only broadcaster. Not now. Not for decades...
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Danny565 said:

    I still think the only Lab MP I can see as a potential defector is Kate Hoey, and she wouldn't have a chance of holding her seat for UKIP.

    What about Mitchell? "With a heavy heart, I'm standing down now, and advising my constituents to vote UKIP..." ?
  • RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
    Cobblers. Maybe in the days when the BBC was the only broadcaster. Not now. Not for decades...
    You cannot rely on private enterprises to deliver public infrastructure out of their own pocket..
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited October 2014

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
    Cobblers. Maybe in the days when the BBC was the only broadcaster. Not now. Not for decades...
    You cannot rely on private enterprises to deliver public infrastructure out of their own pocket..
    What public infrastructure? We're in a 24/7 global news/twitter/youtube/internet infrastructure...

    "We don't need no stinkin' public infrastructure!"
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited October 2014

    Oh I don't know. One of UKIP's aspirations is for the Government to have less influence on voters lives. Surely that is feasible?

    Of course if Westminster doesn't buck it's ideas up there are other considerations that will potentially influence 95% of voters such as the lights going out and energy being effectively rationed

    Scrap the Climate Change Act to keep the lights on, says Owen Paterson

    The Climate Change Act 2008, which ties Britain into stringent environmental measures, should be suspended - and then scrapped - if other countries refuse to agree legally binding targets, says Owen Paterson MP


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/11156113/Scrap-the-Climate-Change-Act-to-keep-the-lights-on-says-Owen-Paterson.html

    How is UKIP going to affect my life?

    I go out with friends, I watch TV, I drive my car, I shop at the supermarket, I look at the internet. How on earth is UKIP or any Government going to have any effect on any of the above?

    If we have a UKIP majority Government, I bet:

    - Rates of Income Tax, NI, VAT and excise duties will all remain just about identical to today (none will change by more than 10% of its current value).

    - The NHS, Schools, Police and Army will all continue to function in a broadly similar way as they do today (no changes will be discernible to the naked eye).

    As for the lights going out - they won't. Whatever energy policy is followed won't affect this - if they look like going out emergency action will be taken to ensure they don't.

    Sorry to disappoint you.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    Danny565 said:

    I still think the only Lab MP I can see as a potential defector is Kate Hoey, and she wouldn't have a chance of holding her seat for UKIP.

    What about Mitchell? "With a heavy heart, I'm standing down now, and advising my constituents to vote UKIP..." ?
    Thing is that most of the Eurosceptic Labour MPs including Mitchell are on the hard left of the party (thus not really likely to like most of UKIP's other policies). Most Labour MPs on the right economically are also pro-EU.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
    Cobblers. Maybe in the days when the BBC was the only broadcaster. Not now. Not for decades...
    You cannot rely on private enterprises to deliver public infrastructure out of their own pocket..
    Why not? Every cable company in the US had to agree to a 'public access' channel as a condition of the deal to wire an area. There are monthly checks on all commercial radio stations of the 'emergency broadcasting network'.

    You can rely on private networks to do it better and cheaper.
  • "Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network."

    Why? Communication nowadays happens online and BT and mobile operators provide the infrastructure for that. Why is a licence fee needed for that?
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    Just spent a pleasant eve ing with about 20 North London lefties, at a Kentish Town birthday party.

    Interestingly, most of them evinced absolute contempt for UKIP..... and yet, with a little elucidation, sympathised with quite a few of their policies. While remaining resolutely anti-UKIP ("a successful way of being racist" blah blah blah)

    I came away with complete hatred for everything these people believe, because they are such steaming hypocrites. Even as I like them as people, their political views are simultaneously pernicious, ridiculous, Roger-esque and lightweight. They haven't thought anything through. They're like never-ending teenagers, as the rest of the world has grown up.

    A part of me wants UKIP to rape the other parties to death and win a 400 seat majority in 2015.

    F*ck the Left, they are now ghastly and they deserve to die. I can see also why Marine Le Pen might just end up POTFR, the process is, for sure, exactly the same.

    We could be witnessing a continent-wide, European Revolution - but this time it is the Liberal Elite on the receiving end.

    Is it UKIP policy to abolish the licence fee, and leave the British Brainwashing Corporation to its own devices? If not, it should be...

    I don't care much, never paid it. No ill effects for 30 years.
    This is what they say about the licence fee:

    – We will review the BBC Licence Fee with a view to its reduction. Prosecution of non-payments of the Licence Fee would be taken out of the criminal sphere and made a civil offence.
    Half-hearted. Their policy should be to abolish it completely, and refund the last year's payment to every citizen who was conned/intimidated into paying it...

    Radical, and a vote-winner!
    Except of course it also pays for the public communications network so whilst it could be scrapped part of the costs would have to be raised in another manner because Government needs a public communications network.
    No, the government needs ACCESS to communications networks. It does not need to own them.
  • manofkent2014manofkent2014 Posts: 1,543
    edited October 2014
    Ok fine lets rely on them like we rely on the Energy companies even though its becoming ever more likely that the lights will go out and the water companies who do not deliver sufficient water capacity.

    What will happen is slowly but surely coverage will only continue only where it is profitable for coverage to continue. There will be parts of the country that eventually will have poor, obsolete or non existent coverage.

    But hey who gives a toss as long as we don't need to pay the TV Licence!
This discussion has been closed.