Round where I live, huge cars parking on pavements is a much greater hazard than cyclists using pavements - pedestrians are forced into the road, and lines of sight when crossing roads are blocked. Personally, I'd like to see any car parked on a pavement sent to a crusher with no compensation. That'd put a stop to it. A bit extreme, I know. But effective.
Parking on the pavement is to be outlawed in Wales and it is sensible though it will cause a lot of problems
Why? I can't just go and sit down in the middle of the road (ER notwithstanding) - they are for cars. Similarly, cars can't occupy pavements, which are for pedestrians.
Pavements are for pedestrians....remember that when you get on your bike
One wonders whether the Judge is found in lycra on his evenings and weekends off.
I fully accept cyclists rightly dont feel safe on the road....the answer though is not to displace them onto pavements and make pedestrians feel unsafe. I fully admit being hit by a cyclist doing 20 miles an hour is less dangerous than being hit by a car at the same speed....however it can easily end with injuries.
Cycles need there own space not to take over ours
Apparently five pedestrians were killed by cyclists in 2019:
"according to a parliamentary report published in 2020, there were only five reported pedestrian deaths involving a bicycle in 2019 as opposed to the 48 cyclists and 305 pedestrians killed by cars in the same year"
(Note: I'm unsure if the above might include a cyclist who was pushing a bike at the time, and was therefore a pedestrian. But that's relatively unusual.)
The 5 will include people hit by bicycles on the road rather than on the pavement.
I'm unsure that makes it any better.
Stepping out into the road without looking is very common.
Maybe that will stop when you can't hear the cars coming either.
Incidentally, motorists, that's why I don't ride in the gutter.
Aren't you using the same sort of excuses that drivers sometimes make when they hit cyclists: it's *their* fault, not *mine*.
Is a cyclist who cannot stop in time for a pedestrian stepping into a road, or cannot avoid them, not paying enough attention and/or going too fast? Cyclists insist (rightly) on a car's width when a car passes them. Perhaps cyclists should give a car's width to pedestrians as well.
(Hint: they don't. All too often, as happened with me during my run on Sunday, they pay all too little attention to pedestrians.)
When walking, cycling or driving, you need to be aware of the situation around you, and also be aware that someone else might do something unexpected, or stupid, or both.
As a cyclist, when I'm passing a pedestrian, I really don't know what is best to do. Normally, most people walking do so in a straight line, so it's pretty easy to slow down and move over to go around them.
The advice is to use your bell to let the pedestrian know that you're coming, but my experience is that, when I use my bell, the vast majority of pedestrians panic, and treat it as a demand to move out of the way, and so they jump, unpredictably, to one side or the other. They often also react quite aggressively, being irate that I've used my bell to, as they see it, shoo them out of my way.
So often I am tempted not to use my bell, but simply to glide past the walker. But, of course, that has its own issues and its own complaints.
A lot of the time when I am cycling I feel like I can't win. It doesn't matter what I do, someone will take offence at it and curse my existence. Not that I have to worry much about the etiquette on shared use paths around here. The nearest one must be nearly a day's cycling away.
Picking up on that late, I have very few problems on trails here, and people with dogs are very good at stopping or having the pooch on the opposite side. I've only had a couple in 6-8 years
who have ended up with them and pooch on opposite sides with a killer extendy dig lead drooped in between.
My normal technique is a ding at a decent distance to get attention and warn, followed by a greeting when closer, and a pass at walking pace with the possibility of stopping, and a smile and a thank-you.
IMO the biggest mistake is to say "Passing on your left", or similar, as half of the time they will move left.
I don’t have a bell because pedestrians hate them.
I simply shout “hello, good morning,” or some such.
Agree, I think it's very irritating when I'm running or walking, so don't use mine any more. You should be going slow for a pass anyway, so close enough for "scuse me"
I might get an air horn for close pass drivers though...
There is a big difference between the UK and Germany on this point. In Germany, when cycling in a space shared with pedestrians, the usual way to let a pedestrian know that a cyclist is coming is to ring a bell once when 5-10 m away. The pedestrians then orderly move to the side to make a gap for the cyclist.
If you do this in the UK the pedestrians usually jump aside in shock and in fear of their lives. Politely saying "excuse me" works much better.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
Question: is it possible to get sunburnt in Spain in the winter when the locals are walking around in hats and scarves? Answer = yes, as I've found out.
I've been quite sunburnt in Scotland in early April.
Scotland!
Sunburn off snow on a bright clear day can be vicious. I think the worst sunburn I have ever had was in Scotland and it would have been about April.
Question: is it possible to get sunburnt in Spain in the winter when the locals are walking around in hats and scarves? Answer = yes, as I've found out.
I've been quite sunburnt in Scotland in early April.
Scotland!
Sunburn off snow on a bright clear day can be vicious. I think the worst sunburn I have ever had was in Scotland and it would have been about April.
What was it Wodehouse said? 'A Scotsman with a grievance from a ray of sunshine.'
Question: is it possible to get sunburnt in Spain in the winter when the locals are walking around in hats and scarves? Answer = yes, as I've found out.
I've been quite sunburnt in Scotland in early April.
Scotland!
Sunburn off snow on a bright clear day can be vicious. I think the worst sunburn I have ever had was in Scotland and it would have been about April.
What was it Wodehouse said? 'A Scotsman with a grievance from a ray of sunshine.'
I am full of the cold this morning but have to go to Glasgow to start a trial. No problem whatsoever distinguishing between me and a ray of sunshine today!
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
'When I were a lad', I organised the 5-a-side games at a pharmaceutical company I worked for, thanks to a grant I received from the sports club. I chose the sides to balance them out, and when a couple of women asked to play, they were included. Often, we had enough for two games. This was in the 1970s and 80s, so we were ahead of our times.
Two or three of the men were very good, playing football semi-professionally. I wasn't very good. I played prop for a local rugby club, but my football skills were minimal. One of the woman complained that she was always in the second game, and it was unfair. I was always in the second game too, when we had two, but I knew it was fair.
Five-a -side is non-contact, but only if you're good at the game. This woman was probably the worst of the women - about my standard - but she didn't realise the men were easing off on her, as I was. My trade-make scything tackle being reserved for the other 'clodhoppers'.
You can never convince anyone about their football skills, so there's no point arguing. That's wokeness for you.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
What's happening at Ben Houchen International Airport? I note that Drakan have moved in but 5 x L-159 isn't going to generate a lot of duty free revenue.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
The problem with this episode is that most people think that Johnson and co were obviously guilty. So their complaints about Sue Gray will just fall on deaf ears.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
The majority of people in this country know for a fact that Bunter was leading a party culture whilst they weren't allowed to visit loved ones. So the enquiry descending into political arguments and Boris getting off on a technicality suits Labour down to the ground. It refuels the burning sense of grievance that so many have.
Round where I live, huge cars parking on pavements is a much greater hazard than cyclists using pavements - pedestrians are forced into the road, and lines of sight when crossing roads are blocked. Personally, I'd like to see any car parked on a pavement sent to a crusher with no compensation. That'd put a stop to it. A bit extreme, I know. But effective.
Parking on the pavement is to be outlawed in Wales and it is sensible though it will cause a lot of problems
Why? I can't just go and sit down in the middle of the road (ER notwithstanding) - they are for cars. Similarly, cars can't occupy pavements, which are for pedestrians.
Pavements are for pedestrians....remember that when you get on your bike
One wonders whether the Judge is found in lycra on his evenings and weekends off.
I fully accept cyclists rightly dont feel safe on the road....the answer though is not to displace them onto pavements and make pedestrians feel unsafe. I fully admit being hit by a cyclist doing 20 miles an hour is less dangerous than being hit by a car at the same speed....however it can easily end with injuries.
Cycles need there own space not to take over ours
Apparently five pedestrians were killed by cyclists in 2019:
"according to a parliamentary report published in 2020, there were only five reported pedestrian deaths involving a bicycle in 2019 as opposed to the 48 cyclists and 305 pedestrians killed by cars in the same year"
(Note: I'm unsure if the above might include a cyclist who was pushing a bike at the time, and was therefore a pedestrian. But that's relatively unusual.)
The 5 will include people hit by bicycles on the road rather than on the pavement.
I'm unsure that makes it any better.
Stepping out into the road without looking is very common.
Maybe that will stop when you can't hear the cars coming either.
Incidentally, motorists, that's why I don't ride in the gutter.
Aren't you using the same sort of excuses that drivers sometimes make when they hit cyclists: it's *their* fault, not *mine*.
Is a cyclist who cannot stop in time for a pedestrian stepping into a road, or cannot avoid them, not paying enough attention and/or going too fast? Cyclists insist (rightly) on a car's width when a car passes them. Perhaps cyclists should give a car's width to pedestrians as well.
(Hint: they don't. All too often, as happened with me during my run on Sunday, they pay all too little attention to pedestrians.)
When walking, cycling or driving, you need to be aware of the situation around you, and also be aware that someone else might do something unexpected, or stupid, or both.
As a cyclist, when I'm passing a pedestrian, I really don't know what is best to do. Normally, most people walking do so in a straight line, so it's pretty easy to slow down and move over to go around them.
The advice is to use your bell to let the pedestrian know that you're coming, but my experience is that, when I use my bell, the vast majority of pedestrians panic, and treat it as a demand to move out of the way, and so they jump, unpredictably, to one side or the other. They often also react quite aggressively, being irate that I've used my bell to, as they see it, shoo them out of my way.
So often I am tempted not to use my bell, but simply to glide past the walker. But, of course, that has its own issues and its own complaints.
A lot of the time when I am cycling I feel like I can't win. It doesn't matter what I do, someone will take offence at it and curse my existence. Not that I have to worry much about the etiquette on shared use paths around here. The nearest one must be nearly a day's cycling away.
Picking up on that late, I have very few problems on trails here, and people with dogs are very good at stopping or having the pooch on the opposite side. I've only had a couple in 6-8 years
who have ended up with them and pooch on opposite sides with a killer extendy dig lead drooped in between.
My normal technique is a ding at a decent distance to get attention and warn, followed by a greeting when closer, and a pass at walking pace with the possibility of stopping, and a smile and a thank-you.
IMO the biggest mistake is to say "Passing on your left", or similar, as half of the time they will move left.
I don’t have a bell because pedestrians hate them.
I simply shout “hello, good morning,” or some such.
Agree, I think it's very irritating when I'm running or walking, so don't use mine any more. You should be going slow for a pass anyway, so close enough for "scuse me"
I might get an air horn for close pass drivers though...
There is a big difference between the UK and Germany on this point. In Germany, when cycling in a space shared with pedestrians, the usual way to let a pedestrian know that a cyclist is coming is to ring a bell once when 5-10 m away. The pedestrians then orderly move to the side to make a gap for the cyclist.
If you do this in the UK the pedestrians usually jump aside in shock and in fear of their lives. Politely saying "excuse me" works much better.
I can’t say that never happens to me but it is rare it happens when I’m cycling.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I don’t think Labour did announce it. She is not yet confirmed in the job. Obviously, though, Labour will be distraught that everyone is now talking about Partygate again now.
It will be interesting to see the government line on this. If Johnson was stitched up, then it follows that he should still be PM. Will Rishi Sunak agree?
Question: is it possible to get sunburnt in Spain in the winter when the locals are walking around in hats and scarves? Answer = yes, as I've found out.
I've been quite sunburnt in Scotland in early April.
Scotland!
Sunburn off snow on a bright clear day can be vicious. I think the worst sunburn I have ever had was in Scotland and it would have been about April.
Round where I live, huge cars parking on pavements is a much greater hazard than cyclists using pavements - pedestrians are forced into the road, and lines of sight when crossing roads are blocked. Personally, I'd like to see any car parked on a pavement sent to a crusher with no compensation. That'd put a stop to it. A bit extreme, I know. But effective.
Parking on the pavement is to be outlawed in Wales and it is sensible though it will cause a lot of problems
Why? I can't just go and sit down in the middle of the road (ER notwithstanding) - they are for cars. Similarly, cars can't occupy pavements, which are for pedestrians.
Pavements are for pedestrians....remember that when you get on your bike
One wonders whether the Judge is found in lycra on his evenings and weekends off.
I fully accept cyclists rightly dont feel safe on the road....the answer though is not to displace them onto pavements and make pedestrians feel unsafe. I fully admit being hit by a cyclist doing 20 miles an hour is less dangerous than being hit by a car at the same speed....however it can easily end with injuries.
Cycles need there own space not to take over ours
Apparently five pedestrians were killed by cyclists in 2019:
"according to a parliamentary report published in 2020, there were only five reported pedestrian deaths involving a bicycle in 2019 as opposed to the 48 cyclists and 305 pedestrians killed by cars in the same year"
(Note: I'm unsure if the above might include a cyclist who was pushing a bike at the time, and was therefore a pedestrian. But that's relatively unusual.)
The 5 will include people hit by bicycles on the road rather than on the pavement.
I'm unsure that makes it any better.
Stepping out into the road without looking is very common.
Maybe that will stop when you can't hear the cars coming either.
Incidentally, motorists, that's why I don't ride in the gutter.
Aren't you using the same sort of excuses that drivers sometimes make when they hit cyclists: it's *their* fault, not *mine*.
Is a cyclist who cannot stop in time for a pedestrian stepping into a road, or cannot avoid them, not paying enough attention and/or going too fast? Cyclists insist (rightly) on a car's width when a car passes them. Perhaps cyclists should give a car's width to pedestrians as well.
(Hint: they don't. All too often, as happened with me during my run on Sunday, they pay all too little attention to pedestrians.)
When walking, cycling or driving, you need to be aware of the situation around you, and also be aware that someone else might do something unexpected, or stupid, or both.
As a cyclist, when I'm passing a pedestrian, I really don't know what is best to do. Normally, most people walking do so in a straight line, so it's pretty easy to slow down and move over to go around them.
The advice is to use your bell to let the pedestrian know that you're coming, but my experience is that, when I use my bell, the vast majority of pedestrians panic, and treat it as a demand to move out of the way, and so they jump, unpredictably, to one side or the other. They often also react quite aggressively, being irate that I've used my bell to, as they see it, shoo them out of my way.
So often I am tempted not to use my bell, but simply to glide past the walker. But, of course, that has its own issues and its own complaints.
A lot of the time when I am cycling I feel like I can't win. It doesn't matter what I do, someone will take offence at it and curse my existence. Not that I have to worry much about the etiquette on shared use paths around here. The nearest one must be nearly a day's cycling away.
Picking up on that late, I have very few problems on trails here, and people with dogs are very good at stopping or having the pooch on the opposite side. I've only had a couple in 6-8 years
who have ended up with them and pooch on opposite sides with a killer extendy dig lead drooped in between.
My normal technique is a ding at a decent distance to get attention and warn, followed by a greeting when closer, and a pass at walking pace with the possibility of stopping, and a smile and a thank-you.
IMO the biggest mistake is to say "Passing on your left", or similar, as half of the time they will move left.
I don’t have a bell because pedestrians hate them.
I simply shout “hello, good morning,” or some such.
Agree, I think it's very irritating when I'm running or walking, so don't use mine any more. You should be going slow for a pass anyway, so close enough for "scuse me"
I might get an air horn for close pass drivers though...
There is a big difference between the UK and Germany on this point. In Germany, when cycling in a space shared with pedestrians, the usual way to let a pedestrian know that a cyclist is coming is to ring a bell once when 5-10 m away. The pedestrians then orderly move to the side to make a gap for the cyclist.
If you do this in the UK the pedestrians usually jump aside in shock and in fear of their lives. Politely saying "excuse me" works much better.
I can’t say that never happens to me but it is rare it happens when I’m cycling.
I was once on the pavement - no confusing mixed use crap there - and a unicyclist expected me to get out of the way in a hurry. No ****ing brakes on a unicycle, never mind a bell. Fortunately he was going slowly, but ...!
Question: is it possible to get sunburnt in Spain in the winter when the locals are walking around in hats and scarves? Answer = yes, as I've found out.
I've been quite sunburnt in Scotland in early April.
Scotland!
Sunburn off snow on a bright clear day can be vicious. I think the worst sunburn I have ever had was in Scotland and it would have been about April.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I think their priority is to get her in post. While there's no obligation for her to follow the advice of the appointments watchdog since she has resigned from the civil service, I've little doubt she will do so. So she might have to wait anywhere between three months and a year (anything more than that would be viewed as unreasonable).
The immediate politics of this is an irrelevant and largely nonsensical Tory argument, which they are welcome to.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
The problem with this episode is that most people think that Johnson and co were obviously guilty. So their complaints about Sue Gray will just fall on deaf ears.
The real point is that her finding were largely maters of fact. The Parliamentary committee enquiry into Johnson's behaviour won't be able to ignore them - and isn't going to be able to invalidate them.
Stating that the Elgin Marbles belong in London is a bit like saying the Crown Jewels belong in Athens!
The British Museum = Biggest Stolen Goods Warehouse in the World!
I think that's Boris's point. If the BM (or any museum for that matter) obliges itself to 'give everything back', it's not a museum, it's a room.
Indeed, loan exhibits abroad but if every major museum only displayed objects from the country it was located in there wouldn't be a lot of exhibits left in them
The Parthenon still exists, so the Marbles belong there.
All the places that all the exhibits in all the museums in the world came from still exist.
It’s true but also false.
The Parthenon doesn’t exist anymore as it did when the marbles were there.
The people who built it don’t exist in the sense of culture anymore.
The state, the Athenian City State, doesn’t exist anymore.
So theoretically to return the marbles would not be returning them to where they were from except in a purely physical sense. And then you might have to consider if their physical origin is then the quarry where the marble came from.
Throughout the world there are works of art and objects that sit far away from their original home because someone with more means, money or power had the greed, desire, belief, or genuine love to buy them from whoever might have been their rightful owners or take them from a vanquished foe.
Whilst the above is slightly tongue in cheek it’s a thread that gets pulled for good reasons that unravels out of control.
A few years ago, The Hermitage had a huge exhibition of art the Red Army “liberated” from Berlin, in 1945.
Looting is the victorious soldiers’ prerogative.
A shifty purchase with a bit of greasing of palms the prerogative of the nation of shopkeepers?
@robpowellnews No10 being quite clear this morning that the PM can't unilaterally block Sue Gray taking a job. He gets the ACOBA advice & decides whether to act.
It's all v unclear what happens if he disagrees with the ACOBA advice & thinks the recommendation should be tougher.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
It's not quite that bad.
In 2019, neither of the big two parties was doing grown-up politics. Today, one of them broadly is, and it's reasonably likely that they will be in government next time.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The headline Rishi didn't want this week is Partygate
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
He's trying to replicate the poll boost he got from being known as Sir Beer Korma.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The briefing is that Labour expected the reaction. I don't think they really care about the whining one way or another. They've been out of government for over a decade; the priority is presumably assembling a team who will be able to govern. Appointments like Gray are part of that.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The headline Rishi didn't want this week is Partygate
I almost wondered if it was a Labour dead cat. If Cummings had been behind this we would all be discussing how it took other stories off the front page.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The headline Rishi didn't want this week is Partygate
I almost wondered if it was a Labour dead cat. If Cummings had been behind this we would all be discussing how it took other stories off the front page.
If Cummings had been behind this, it would first have failed to sweep other stories off the front page, then led to a revelation that Labour had been bribing police officers to ignore Partygate details, before leading to an audit of Labour!s accounts revealing that they meant a different Sue Gray and anyway they hadn't paid their taxes for five years.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put spectacularly useless people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I’m not sure the first is an issue?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
Great fun on Tory Twitter this morning. People like Simon Ding Dong Clarke attacking Sue Grey's lack of integrity as the person who wrongly snared Boris being contrasted by Simon Clarke praising Sue Grey's outstanding integrity as the person who rightly absolved saintly Boris.
they can't even get the story straight. Did she clear Boris or not? That he was forced to resign wasn't partygate, it was Pinchergate.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I’m not sure the first is an issue?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
Absolutely. And is there anything to suggest that won't happen?
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
It does re-enforce the strongest argument against Starmer. His personality is so boring even his chief is staff is gray.
They were singing her praises at the time because her enquiry was so narrow that it let Bunter off the hook. We have contemporaneous coverage of all of them from Boris downwards practically crowing about the report and how all the allegations had been dismissed and we can now all move on.
So if they want to reopen that particular wound and start poking fingers into in, how marvellous! Lets remind everyone of the parties that Grey refused to even look at despite all the evidence. Lets ask - as well known Labour stooge Nick Robinson just did - if Ms Sue was the person organising or attending "all" the parties.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
According to The Times, Rishi Sunak is facing mounting pressure from allies of Boris Johnson to block the appointment of a senior civil servant as Sir Keir Starmer’s chief of staff.
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I’m not sure the first is an issue?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
If she was still a senior civil servant, and Labour won an election tomorrow, how would that be any different?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
If she was still a senior civil servant, and Labour won an election tomorrow, how would that be any different?
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
He had a spell attacking the SNP government for its puiblic health policies re industrial production of cheap alcohol by his employers. Not very leftie, either.
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
If she was still a senior civil servant, and Labour won an election tomorrow, how would that be any different?
It's interesting to see - as someone remarked yesterday - there is a great deal of conflation in this general discussion between civil servants and SPAds.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
He had a spell attacking the SNP government for its puiblic health policies re industrial production of cheap alcohol by his employers. Not very leftie, either.
Surely he was representing the end of the market where the production was of not cheap alcohol. Leave Bells and Buckfast Powersmash to some other chaps, he wants to promote China importing ever sillier volumes of 21 year old Dalmore, that kind of thing.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The headline Rishi didn't want this week is Partygate
According to The Times, Rishi Sunak is facing mounting pressure from allies of Boris Johnson to block the appointment of a senior civil servant as Sir Keir Starmer’s chief of staff.
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
He can't, anyway. At most he can advise a longer delay. And an excessive delay would be contested.
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I’m not sure the first is an issue?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
Absolutely. And is there anything to suggest that won't happen?
Various senior Tories have effectively been libelling Gray. I'd recommend not following their lead.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
He had a spell attacking the SNP government for its puiblic health policies re industrial production of cheap alcohol by his employers. Not very leftie, either.
Surely he was representing the end of the market where the production was of not cheap alcohol. Leave Bells and Buckfast Powersmash to some other chaps, he wants to promote China importing ever sillier volumes of 21 year old Dalmore, that kind of thing.
For those who don't realise your sarcasm - the whiskies weren't affected by the legislation. Even Buckfast wasnt' affected. It was the cheap stuff made by the same multinationals that was the issue.
Edit: this (not very good) Graun piece shows us how much he loves the European instditutions.
'David Frost, chief executive of the SWA, said the association was pleased by the decision. "From the outset we said that we believed minimum unit pricing was contrary to European Union law and that it was likely in the end to go to the European court," he said.'
The people of Sunderland are concerned about energy security and food availability.
Not a word about woke.
It really is a funny old world.
Look, certain Tories in particular make too much of it, acting as though that alone will save their skins. But just because people won't prioritise it to the level of energy prices and other major issues doesn't mean it is not fertile grounds for political arguments or of no consequence.
Did I say otherwise?
Don't be like that, it was a very clear implication with the faux shocked 'funny old world' comment. This isn't a courtroom, you're not about to be booked for the snark that was the obvious intent.
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
Morning all! Surely one of the defining features of this government has been outsourcing of government functions to private organisations. In those circumstances, if growing, the state means the government doing some of these things itself, that is probably a good thing. Given the efficiency of some of the private organisations!
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
People going from political jobs to senior public official jobs may also be a cause for concern, but in a different way. Concern over the one does not negate the other.
Stating that the Elgin Marbles belong in London is a bit like saying the Crown Jewels belong in Athens!
The British Museum = Biggest Stolen Goods Warehouse in the World!
I think that's Boris's point. If the BM (or any museum for that matter) obliges itself to 'give everything back', it's not a museum, it's a room.
Indeed, loan exhibits abroad but if every major museum only displayed objects from the country it was located in there wouldn't be a lot of exhibits left in them
The Parthenon still exists, so the Marbles belong there.
All the places that all the exhibits in all the museums in the world came from still exist.
Not in the respect Sunil is talking about. The Elgin Marbles are literally fixtures ripped off the walls of an ancient building that is still there.
In most cases, the item is either by its nature moveable, or the context in which it was displayed either gone or massively changed.
It's objectively ludicrous - even if one attaches no blame to Elgin personally and thinks it all legal etc - that the Marbles are in Bloomsbury rather than an ancient building which they were literally part of and which (I'll repeat) is still effing there.
There's another side to this that I find interesting, and that's the soft power of artefacts.
A few years back, my son was fascinated by terracotta warriors and Easter Island heads. He was a bit too young to take him up to the Liverpool terracotta warrior exhibition in 2018, but last year we went to a tiny (but brilliant) 'fake' Terracotta Warrior exhibition in Dorchester, of all places, which he loved. (There's a fake Tutankhamun exhibition just up the road as well).
This isn't relevant to the marbles, but I wonder if having exhibits around the world actually helps the original country? Does have an Easter Island head in the BM create more knowledge and interest about/in Easter Island? Do all the exhibits of Ancient Egypt in local museums, of dusty mummies and strange inscriptions, actually create generations of people who are interested in Egypt and its history, and therefore more likely to travel there?
Would the world be richer if every ancient artefact was in its original place, or poorer? (Leaving aside issues if where an 'original' place is)?
This is not an argument for musuems keeping foreign artefacts: the same sort of effect may be achieved by travelling exhibitions. But I reckon there's a massive soft power in it - especially for small places like Easter Island.
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
Morning all! Surely one of the defining features of this government has been outsourcing of government functions to private organisations. In those circumstances, if growing, the state means the government doing some of these things itself, that is probably a good thing. Given the efficiency of some of the private organisations!
Morning!
Also given that the Tory voters have brought us Mr Johnson and Ms Truss, I'm not surprised that someone is wrong in that comparison.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
He had a spell attacking the SNP government for its puiblic health policies re industrial production of cheap alcohol by his employers. Not very leftie, either.
Surely he was representing the end of the market where the production was of not cheap alcohol. Leave Bells and Buckfast Powersmash to some other chaps, he wants to promote China importing ever sillier volumes of 21 year old Dalmore, that kind of thing.
For those who don't realise your sarcasm - the whiskies weren't affected by the legislation. Even Buckfast wasnt' affected. It was the cheap stuff made by the same multinationals that was the issue.
Edit: this (not very good) Graun piece shows us how much he loves the European instditutions.
'David Frost, chief executive of the SWA, said the association was pleased by the decision. "From the outset we said that we believed minimum unit pricing was contrary to European Union law and that it was likely in the end to go to the European court," he said.'
Quite right too. Must go and defend the right of Scottish alkies to get their Buckfast at a price they can afford. Can't have them sobering up.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
I reckon he escapes censure now, no matter what emerges. His acolytes have two prongs to deflect from the issue of his conduct, legal and now Gray, and it's enough to give them confidence to use them as pretexts, to pretend its not about condoning his behaviour.
Sunak hasn't yet got enough authority to push past that, he's not yet had his signature achievement approved after all.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I think there are two things here -
- Nothing illegal, no standards broken, not dubious. In fact completely inside all laws, rules, guidelines. - Bad optics
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
Wasn't Conservative Party legend and Brexit go-getter David, now Lord Frost previously a time-served partisan left wing civil servant (they all are)? Or was he previously Jabba the Hutt, I can't recall?
He had a spell attacking the SNP government for its puiblic health policies re industrial production of cheap alcohol by his employers. Not very leftie, either.
Surely he was representing the end of the market where the production was of not cheap alcohol. Leave Bells and Buckfast Powersmash to some other chaps, he wants to promote China importing ever sillier volumes of 21 year old Dalmore, that kind of thing.
For those who don't realise your sarcasm - the whiskies weren't affected by the legislation. Even Buckfast wasnt' affected. It was the cheap stuff made by the same multinationals that was the issue.
Edit: this (not very good) Graun piece shows us how much he loves the European instditutions.
'David Frost, chief executive of the SWA, said the association was pleased by the decision. "From the outset we said that we believed minimum unit pricing was contrary to European Union law and that it was likely in the end to go to the European court," he said.'
Quite right too. Must go and defend the right of Scottish alkies to get their Buckfast at a price they can afford. Can't have them sobering up.
IIRC Buckfast pricing wasn't affected - it's top end of that particular subsector of the market ...
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
I don't think the public really grasp the question. Grow it how, in what area, all parts or just overall so some bits still stay the same?
Spending more money on the courts, for example, would be growing the public sector to the advantage of all of us. Except possibly those likely to be convicted!
According to The Times, Rishi Sunak is facing mounting pressure from allies of Boris Johnson to block the appointment of a senior civil servant as Sir Keir Starmer’s chief of staff.
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
The first thing that many senior civil servants do on retirement is find a well-paid consultancy gig or advisory position with the private sector. I know this because I have frequently run into them through work. In comparison, I'd say that advising the LOTO is remarkably public-spirited. I don't understand the fuss, apart from the fact that Tories need to keep firing up the permanent outrage machine to distract from their own failures.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
And the Tories are hypocritical on this anyway. They have regularly plucked people from public sector roles straight into government - particularly from the BBC - and put people with Tory links straight into prominent public sector roles.
I’m not sure the first is an issue?
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
By that logic no senior civil servant would ever be allowed to join or work for a political party after they retire or decide to leave the service.
People are going nuts over this story, and at the worst end its clearly out of excitement for a way to defend saint Boris.
But whilst the suddeness of the appointment doesn't look great and that's why it was a poor move at this time, a lot of people are just severely overreacting to the principle of it.
People are allowed to work for parties even if they were high up in the civil service. If it had been 5 years from now no one but obsessives would care. Its just distractingly close to an event she was in the news for.
Stating that the Elgin Marbles belong in London is a bit like saying the Crown Jewels belong in Athens!
The British Museum = Biggest Stolen Goods Warehouse in the World!
I think that's Boris's point. If the BM (or any museum for that matter) obliges itself to 'give everything back', it's not a museum, it's a room.
Indeed, loan exhibits abroad but if every major museum only displayed objects from the country it was located in there wouldn't be a lot of exhibits left in them
The Parthenon still exists, so the Marbles belong there.
All the places that all the exhibits in all the museums in the world came from still exist.
Not in the respect Sunil is talking about. The Elgin Marbles are literally fixtures ripped off the walls of an ancient building that is still there.
In most cases, the item is either by its nature moveable, or the context in which it was displayed either gone or massively changed.
It's objectively ludicrous - even if one attaches no blame to Elgin personally and thinks it all legal etc - that the Marbles are in Bloomsbury rather than an ancient building which they were literally part of and which (I'll repeat) is still effing there.
There's another side to this that I find interesting, and that's the soft power of artefacts.
A few years back, my son was fascinated by terracotta warriors and Easter Island heads. He was a bit too young to take him up to the Liverpool terracotta warrior exhibition in 2018, but last year we went to a tiny (but brilliant) 'fake' Terracotta Warrior exhibition in Dorchester, of all places, which he loved. (There's a fake Tutankhamun exhibition just up the road as well).
This isn't relevant to the marbles, but I wonder if having exhibits around the world actually helps the original country? Does have an Easter Island head in the BM create more knowledge and interest about/in Easter Island? Do all the exhibits of Ancient Egypt in local museums, of dusty mummies and strange inscriptions, actually create generations of people who are interested in Egypt and its history, and therefore more likely to travel there?
Would the world be richer if every ancient artefact was in its original place, or poorer? (Leaving aside issues if where an 'original' place is)?
This is not an argument for musuems keeping foreign artefacts: the same sort of effect may be achieved by travelling exhibitions. But I reckon there's a massive soft power in it - especially for small places like Easter Island.
That's a good point but I guess there is an important distinction between lending out artefacts of one's own volition and having them plundered by some Victoria cad and not returned.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I think there are two things here -
- Nothing illegal, no standards broken, not dubious. In fact completely inside all laws, rules, guidelines. - Bad optics
There's a couple of other, minor side issues here.
*) Labour are potentially making themselves a hostage to fortune. If there were contacts between Labour and Gray during the inquiry, it could be insinuated that a deal had been done.
*) It sends a message: get the 'right' result in an inquiry, and the side might hire you (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). I'm unconvinced that's a good thing, especially after the Shami Chakrabarti scandal.
Which leads to a question; if Gray had cleared Johnson, would she still have been hired by Labour?
IMV Labour were perfectly right in offering the job; I'm unsure Gray was wise to accept it.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I am not certain that a continuation of the civil war inside the Tories is "bad for Labour"
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Silly me, I thought everyone was enjoying a shift towards grown up politics and consigning fuckwits like Boris to history after all the NI agreement.
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
In grown-up politics land, people don't pretend:
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
I would give this argument a little more time if we didn't *know* that all the loudest outraged Starmer defenders in this thread would be arguing the polar opposite if, in a parallel universe, a public official tasked with investigating Starmer had soon afterward been appointed Boris’s Chief of Staff, we'd be hearing all about CCHQ revolving doors, chumocracy etc. in the strongest terms.
There is nothing to defend Starmer against. He has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, we do all know that it's OK for Tories to run the impartial BBC but not OK for a former civil servant to work for the Labour party leader.
People going from political jobs to senior public official jobs may also be a cause for concern, but in a different way. Concern over the one does not negate the other.
The political parties take the piss, and then they keep on taking the piss.
Alex Aiken was head of the Tory press office who went on to create the Government Communications Servce, to take another example.
Johnson sounds increasingly like Trump. Gray getting the Labour job says ZERO about a supposed enormous conspiracy to frame Johnson as a lying drunk who had nothing but contempt for the idea that he might abide by the rules his government imposed on the rest of us.
From a betting POV, Gray landing the Labour job causes me, though, to adjust the probability of a Tory majority downwards and the probability of a Starmer premiership upwards.
But assessment is still that wrt current polls the Tories can raise their voteshare a lot by fighting on immigration - an issue that belongs to them and is always big in focus groups and not likely to evaporate any time soon.
Robinson hits the nail on the head really. If the inquiry is tainted then there needs to be a new one. It didn't take long last time so wont be hard to do.
According to The Times, Rishi Sunak is facing mounting pressure from allies of Boris Johnson to block the appointment of a senior civil servant as Sir Keir Starmer’s chief of staff.
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
He can't, anyway. At most he can advise a longer delay. And an excessive delay would be contested.
Good morning
Yes - the BBC said the same just now
I understand the cabinet office have seized her phone and are securing documents, as she has been present at many cabinet meetings
There is no doubt the Johnson supporters, including the mail with their over the top front page, are going to use this to undermine the case against him no matter how much the appointment is defended
Not sure the timing of this was politically sensible, as it would have made sense to do this after the privileges committee report
This is not an argument for musuems keeping foreign artefacts: the same sort of effect may be achieved by travelling exhibitions. But I reckon there's a massive soft power in it - especially for small places like Easter Island.
A couple of years ago I visited the University of Pennsylvania museum. They have a number of panels describing how the museum was founded. TLDR; some rich folks went to Egypt and "found" a bunch of stuff which they brought back and put on show
I know that's how most museums did it, but I was slightly surprised by how blatantly is was described.
I don't think there's anything to worry about regarding the Gray appointment in terms of ethics or the rules, but politically it's a bit of a gaffe by Starmer if he didn't consider how it could be seen (or alternatively a very cunning way of reminding us all about Partygate by getting it back into the news....)
The briefing is that Labour expected the reaction. I don't think they really care about the whining one way or another. They've been out of government for over a decade; the priority is presumably assembling a team who will be able to govern. Appointments like Gray are part of that.
Lovely bit of shithousery from Starmer. The equivalent of taking a yellow to stop a counterattack when you're 2-0 up.
Most UK voters and most 2019 Conservative voters think Starmer will keep the State the same size. Most 2019 Labour voters though think Starmer will grow the State. They can't both be right?
I don't think the public really grasp the question. Grow it how, in what area, all parts or just overall so some bits still stay the same?
Spending more money on the courts, for example, would be growing the public sector to the advantage of all of us. Except possibly those likely to be convicted!
Probably even them - speedier justice, even if they'd rather not face justice.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I think there are two things here -
- Nothing illegal, no standards broken, not dubious. In fact completely inside all laws, rules, guidelines. - Bad optics
Well, that breaks down the hundreds of thousands of words that will be written on this to the core elements.
The first polls following the Windsor unknotting have been published. Both show improved votes for the Conservatives. PeoplePolling have C on 24% (+4%) and Techne have C on 29% (+2%).
According to The Times, Rishi Sunak is facing mounting pressure from allies of Boris Johnson to block the appointment of a senior civil servant as Sir Keir Starmer’s chief of staff.
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
He can't, anyway. At most he can advise a longer delay. And an excessive delay would be contested.
Good morning
Yes - the BBC said the same just now
I understand the cabinet office have seized her phone and are securing documents, as she has been present at many cabinet meetings
There is no doubt the Johnson supporters, including the mail with their over the top front page, are going to use this to undermine the case against him no matter how much the appointment is defended
Not sure the timing of this was politically sensible, as it would have made sense to do this after the privileges committee report
I'm not sure that Labour will be too upset if Boris Johnson lives to fight another day. Right now he is a bigger threat to Sunak than to Starmer. And if the Tories want us all to talk about Partygate again, that sounds great, be my guest!
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
I reckon he escapes censure now, no matter what emerges. His acolytes have two prongs to deflect from the issue of his conduct, legal and now Gray, and it's enough to give them confidence to use them as pretexts, to pretend its not about condoning his behaviour.
Sunak hasn't yet got enough authority to push past that, he's not yet had his signature achievement approved after all.
This is what annoys me, I get that it’s great for Labour from a party political angle to have Boris causing trouble for the Tories and Sunak but I was really hoping that all this childish shit was going and that if the boil that is Boris was lanced then we could get back to “grown up politics” which I’m sure Starmer really would love to see surely?
So it’s top bantz for Labour allowing the Boris festerence to continue but it’s shit for politics as all the majority of the public see is this sort of bullshit.
And if Starmer is ready for power and thinks that Labour are going to win then he shouldn’t need this crap and can win on a positive approach.
I fear he has just left the farm gate cracked open enough for the greased pig that is Boris to wriggle through.
Love today's Daily Heil front page. The evil Starmer forced Number 10 aides to bring suitcases of wine into Downing Street so that they could have another kareoke party. Who knew?
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
@mikeysmith Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
And she didn't investigate many incidents, such as the ABBA party. So ideal for when a whitewash is needed.
She didn't investigate ABBA because she was too busy doing the hypnosis sessions on Ben Houchen. Big Ben thinks he is removing money and control from local councils and handing both it and public money to his friends in an every week in Private Eye corruption probe scandal. But no - Keith Donkey has had him brainwashed and he is building the Death Machine at Teesworks which PM Starmer will use to blackmail the UN.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
I have absolutely no issue with Sue Gray going to work for Labour, have no issue with her investigations as everyone can see there were parties and it’s disingenuous for any Tory to claim that Boris was hard done by.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
I think there are two things here -
- Nothing illegal, no standards broken, not dubious. In fact completely inside all laws, rules, guidelines. - Bad optics
There's a couple of other, minor side issues here.
*) Labour are potentially making themselves a hostage to fortune. If there were contacts between Labour and Gray during the inquiry, it could be insinuated that a deal had been done.
*) It sends a message: get the 'right' result in an inquiry, and the side might hire you (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). I'm unconvinced that's a good thing, especially after the Shami Chakrabarti scandal.
Which leads to a question; if Gray had cleared Johnson, would she still have been hired by Labour?
IMV Labour were perfectly right in offering the job; I'm unsure Gray was wise to accept it.
I think such contacts quite unlikely. And why shouldn't she accept the role ?
The idea that Labour influenced the enquiry is so utterly risible that only a complete fool like Dorries might actually believe it.
Looks like Sir Keir has played a blinder with Sue Gray. Until now this week was all about Rishi, getting Brexit done and a return to mature and consensual politics. Sir Keir has ensured that we're now back talking about Boris and his lockdown antics. Moreover, by shifting the the perspective in this way, Sir Keir has ensured that, once again, the Tory Party is perceived as nothing more than Boris's instrument. A masterstroke really.
Comments
If you do this in the UK the pedestrians usually jump aside in shock and in fear of their lives. Politely saying "excuse me" works much better.
Supposedly the attack line on Starmer has been Keith! The donkey man so boring that you'd fall asleep if you spoke to him. Now suddenly he is Blofeld, a man with huge power and agents everywhere, dastardly pulling the strings and setting up conspiracies.
Keith Donkey brought down Corbyn with a manufactured conspiracy, now apparently he also brought down Johnson with an entirely different conspiracy which reached into the heart of the government machine during lock down. Imagine what he will do to the EU and Biden etc when he is elected PM? Blackmailing the UN for £100,000,000,000,000,000 or else he will fire the Crust-o-Matic Doomsday Earthquake machine he's had Ben Houchen build on Teesside.
Your occasional reminder that Sue Gray only did the Partygate inquiry because Simon Case had to pull out because he'd been accused of having one of the bloody parties in his office.
She was appointed to the probe by - that's right folks - Boris Johnson.
It sounds incredible. But it more convincing than the Daily Mail front page!
Two or three of the men were very good, playing football semi-professionally. I wasn't very good. I played prop for a local rugby club, but my football skills were minimal. One of the woman complained that she was always in the second game, and it was unfair. I was always in the second game too, when we had two, but I knew it was fair.
Five-a -side is non-contact, but only if you're good at the game. This woman was probably the worst of the women - about my standard - but she didn't realise the men were easing off on her, as I was. My trade-make scything tackle being reserved for the other 'clodhoppers'.
You can never convince anyone about their football skills, so there's no point arguing. That's wokeness for you.
My problem is that Labour should probably have not announced this until after the Standards committee had rogered Boris as I fear that Boris and his outriders will use this to muddy the waters and allow another stab in the back story to build when it was starting to look that he was fading into the background and that Standards would be the stake in his heart.
If it helps Boris then Labour have made an error in timing if not the actual act.
It looked like Rishi had finally tamed the Big Dog, but now he is back in the headlines and agitating to be reinstated
Popcorn!
Good to know we want political shenanigans rather than what’s best for the country again, was worried we might actually be getting somewhere.
And that will reinforce Labour as the saner option..
But I'm pretty sure that's just a side effect. For some of the trolling on the right, getting the response is the only point.
It will be interesting to see the government line on this. If Johnson was stitched up, then it follows that he should still be PM. Will Rishi Sunak agree?
Crampons
Ice axe
Factor 50
While there's no obligation for her to follow the advice of the appointments watchdog since she has resigned from the civil service, I've little doubt she will do so.
So she might have to wait anywhere between three months and a year (anything more than that would be viewed as unreasonable).
The immediate politics of this is an irrelevant and largely nonsensical Tory argument, which they are welcome to.
1. That it is impossible to be an impartial civil servant and then to resign your position to do a job that is political in nature.
2. That a report that was declared at the time to vindicate Boris Johnson is now evidence that he was stitched up.
3. That the role of the chief of staff is policy facing.
We are a long, long way from grown-up politics.
actually if she comes back as a political adviser as opposed to a civil servant she then becomes Sue White
No10 being quite clear this morning that the PM can't unilaterally block Sue Gray taking a job. He gets the ACOBA advice & decides whether to act.
It's all v unclear what happens if he disagrees with the ACOBA advice & thinks the recommendation should be tougher.
In 2019, neither of the big two parties was doing grown-up politics. Today, one of them broadly is, and it's reasonably likely that they will be in government next time.
We just have to wait 19 months or so.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64762113
Why not play two halves of 30 minutes 'in-play' time - stop the clock every time the ball is out of play?
Again.
They've been out of government for over a decade; the priority is presumably assembling a team who will be able to govern. Appointments like Gray are part of that.
It really has been government by cronyism.
At least Gray appears to have a functioning brain even if she is a civil servant.
Re any senior civil servant effectively joining the senior management of the opposition - isn’t the issue that she has been privy to confidential information that the government has a right to expect to be kept confidential?
they can't even get the story straight. Did she clear Boris or not? That he was forced to resign wasn't partygate, it was Pinchergate.
https://twitter.com/JakeBenRichards/status/1631568767456100353
Doesn’t seem that Acoba is going to give Tory MPs what they want, as per @oliver_wright
“The committee is about protecting the integrity of the government, not the Conservative Party”
The FDA union is consulting lawyers about the leak of Matt Hancock's WhatsApp amid concern for civil servants’… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631571562707968001
So if they want to reopen that particular wound and start poking fingers into in, how marvellous! Lets remind everyone of the parties that Grey refused to even look at despite all the evidence. Lets ask - as well known Labour stooge Nick Robinson just did - if Ms Sue was the person organising or attending "all" the parties.
They really are thick as mince these Tories.
6 No damaging Sunak texts
1.14 Damaging texts being held back for maximum impact
The absolutely worst thing Rishi could do is block the appointment.
It is not synonymous with "Tory".
At most he can advise a longer delay. And an excessive delay would be contested.
https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1631253054845509633?t=GFaU_6UG4fXK-BrYoKwIEA&s=19
Edit: this (not very good) Graun piece shows us how much he loves the European instditutions.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/30/minimum-alcohol-price-european-court-scottish-judges
'David Frost, chief executive of the SWA, said the association was pleased by the decision. "From the outset we said that we believed minimum unit pricing was contrary to European Union law and that it was likely in the end to go to the European court," he said.'
Surely one of the defining features of this government has been outsourcing of government functions to private organisations. In those circumstances, if growing, the state means the government doing some of these things itself, that is probably a good thing. Given the efficiency of some of the private organisations!
A few years back, my son was fascinated by terracotta warriors and Easter Island heads. He was a bit too young to take him up to the Liverpool terracotta warrior exhibition in 2018, but last year we went to a tiny (but brilliant) 'fake' Terracotta Warrior exhibition in Dorchester, of all places, which he loved. (There's a fake Tutankhamun exhibition just up the road as well).
This isn't relevant to the marbles, but I wonder if having exhibits around the world actually helps the original country? Does have an Easter Island head in the BM create more knowledge and interest about/in Easter Island? Do all the exhibits of Ancient Egypt in local museums, of dusty mummies and strange inscriptions, actually create generations of people who are interested in Egypt and its history, and therefore more likely to travel there?
Would the world be richer if every ancient artefact was in its original place, or poorer? (Leaving aside issues if where an 'original' place is)?
This is not an argument for musuems keeping foreign artefacts: the same sort of effect may be achieved by travelling exhibitions. But I reckon there's a massive soft power in it - especially for small places like Easter Island.
Also given that the Tory voters have brought us Mr Johnson and Ms Truss, I'm not surprised that someone is wrong in that comparison.
Sunak hasn't yet got enough authority to push past that, he's not yet had his signature achievement approved after all.
- Nothing illegal, no standards broken, not dubious. In fact completely inside all laws, rules, guidelines.
- Bad optics
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/mar/03/morris-is-a-creature-of-its-own-a-dance-for-a-new-age-photo-essay
People are going nuts over this story, and at the worst end its clearly out of excitement for a way to defend saint Boris.
But whilst the suddeness of the appointment doesn't look great and that's why it was a poor move at this time, a lot of people are just severely overreacting to the principle of it.
People are allowed to work for parties even if they were high up in the civil service. If it had been 5 years from now no one but obsessives would care. Its just distractingly close to an event she was in the news for.
*) Labour are potentially making themselves a hostage to fortune. If there were contacts between Labour and Gray during the inquiry, it could be insinuated that a deal had been done.
*) It sends a message: get the 'right' result in an inquiry, and the side might hire you (nudge, nudge, wink, wink). I'm unconvinced that's a good thing, especially after the Shami Chakrabarti scandal.
Which leads to a question; if Gray had cleared Johnson, would she still have been hired by Labour?
IMV Labour were perfectly right in offering the job; I'm unsure Gray was wise to accept it.
Alex Aiken was head of the Tory press office who went on to create the Government Communications Servce, to take another example.
Johnson sounds increasingly like Trump. Gray getting the Labour job says ZERO about a supposed enormous conspiracy to frame Johnson as a lying drunk who had nothing but contempt for the idea that he might abide by the rules his government imposed on the rest of us.
From a betting POV, Gray landing the Labour job causes me, though, to adjust the probability of a Tory majority downwards and the probability of a Starmer premiership upwards.
But assessment is still that wrt current polls the Tories can raise their voteshare a lot by fighting on immigration - an issue that belongs to them and is always big in focus groups and not likely to evaporate any time soon.
Yes - the BBC said the same just now
I understand the cabinet office have seized her phone and are securing documents, as she has been present at many cabinet meetings
There is no doubt the Johnson supporters, including the mail with their over the top front page, are going to use this to undermine the case against him no matter how much the appointment is defended
Not sure the timing of this was politically sensible, as it would have made sense to do this after the privileges committee report
I know that's how most museums did it, but I was slightly surprised by how blatantly is was described.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
So it’s top bantz for Labour allowing the Boris festerence to continue but it’s shit for politics as all the majority of the public see is this sort of bullshit.
And if Starmer is ready for power and thinks that Labour are going to win then he shouldn’t need this crap and can win on a positive approach.
I fear he has just left the farm gate cracked open enough for the greased pig that is Boris to wriggle through.
And why shouldn't she accept the role ?
The idea that Labour influenced the enquiry is so utterly risible that only a complete fool like Dorries might actually believe it.