People who go to places and all they can talk about is how they got sh*tfaced there on alcohol are such bores. Curiously they seem to exist in all social classes. (Perhaps they should all get a room together.) If you don't like the alcohol rules in a foreign country, don't go there. If you only like how things are at home, stay at home. Football fans aren't diplomats. Gotta obey the laws of the fuzzywuzzies - capisce?
This is a very easy problem to solve. If you turn up at the polling station without ID, they take a Polaroid photo of you and you sign the back of it.
After the election, there is a spot check of Polaroid signers. (10% or so should do it.)
I don't reckon many people will wish to get their photo taken (and to sign it) committing the crime of personation.
What problem are these reforms trying to solve? Are they claiming widespread voter fraud? Sounds familiar.
They are trying to solve the issue of personation.
Now, we don't know how big an issue it is. It might be almost unknown. Or it might simply be that people rarely get caught.
My suggestion is (a) cheap, (b) easy to implement, (c) deters personation, (d) allows the amount of personation to be determined, and (e) doesn't discourage voters without ID.
Why do we need to change a system that has produced widely accepted fair election results for years?
The implication is that something is broken. What is it? It’s proto-Trumpian. Wise not to go there.
Wise not to go there? Isn't that turning a blind eye to something that even the electoral commission says is a perceived and actual issue?
The report says there is no widespread fraud. They are dealing with perceptions. These perceptions are now commonly generated, exaggerated, and manipulated for partisan ends. We see that in the US.
Sometimes in life the cure is worse than the problem. That I fear is what we will see with these proposals. They will deny more valid voters than stop actual fraud.
Personally I would favour a bank holiday and compulsory turn-up, but that is a whole other story.
So localised fraud is OK, it's only when it is widespread you will start thinking about doing something about it?
They say in the report it is both an actual and perceived weakness of the current system. Of course it is hard to get firm numbers on it, but they do report how in NI there has not been a single claim of personation since the measures were introduced.
They also reported that there was no reduction in participation due to these measures in NI. That is always massively overblown as a potential problem.
Of course local fraud is not ok, but as the report says it has been "detected and punished". Good!
In truth we don't know the scale of the problem because we don't look for it.
Well, why not commission a study to look for it and then act on the study’s findings? That would be a cheaper approach.
We have tax rises and spending cuts. We should be counting every penny, not introducing a new expense.
This could really happen now. A near wipe-out event for the Tories. Down to 100 MPs or fewer
No it isn't. They were heading for near wipe out under Truss ie 22% or less but 28% is just 1% lower than Brown Labour got in 2010 and 1% higher than the 27% Foot Labour got in 1983. Not great but not wipeout either.
Still clearly over 100 Tory MPs too like 1997 but unlike 1997 Labour then has to deal with an awful economic outlook, not the rosy economic situation Blair and Brown inherited
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
You can’t bitch about an ageing demographic on one hand, and immigration on the other.
Well you can, but you’re effectively abandoning any growth strategy whatsoever.
The last refuge of Brexiters like @Sandpit is that “it was migration to blame”, while he literally posts from a territory developed, staffed and managed by expats.
And please don’t give me “low skill”. My first British job was opening envelopes in a mail room. My last job was running a tech start-up with $250m revenue.
Yes, you absolutely can, because, unless immigration is on a ridiculous scale (i.e. multiples of current mass immigration levels), it barely dents the age profile of the organization. Certainly compared with fairly tiny changes in the fertility rate.
And yes the skill level is incredibly relevant if you want to impact growth in per capita income. Using cherry picked anecdotes and pretending they are at all representative is sheer intellectual dishonesty. My grandmother smoked and lived until she was 93. Does that mean smoking doesn't affect life expectancy?
I'm not sure that's true: the developed countries with the best dependency ratios and healthiest looking population pyramids (Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent the UK) have the highest levels of immigration.
Conversely, those countries with the worst dependency ratios and the scariest looks population pyramids (Japan and Italy) have the lowest levels of immigration.
The level, and the skill, of the immigration, needs to be with the consent of the people - not something that the people think is imposed on them against their wishes.
That’s a not unimportant point. But you spoil it with your general economically illiterate diatribes against European migration.
I don’t have a problem with European migration - I do have a problem with the fetishisation of mostly unskilled immigration from EU countries, over mostly skilled immigration from other countries in the world.
IIRC, median incomes for EU immigrants in any given age bracket were slightly above native born levels, so I'm not sure it's fair to say it was "mostly unskilled".
Ooh, that’s a good way to screw with statistics - the mostly unskilled 18-21 year old immigrants, for example, earning way more than all the natives of that age racking up debt at university.
Also, taking averages that include bankers, don’t deal with the fact that there were literally millions of immigrants working minimum wage jobs in retail, hospitality, logistics, and the sort of sh!tty ‘self-employed’ jobs doing deliveries, that paid almost nothing in practice.
Using median means the banker doesn't change the equation. Median means there are 50% below, and 50% above.
Your point regarding lower age brackets is fair - but as it's based on people in work, you're comparing 18-24 year old Brits in work with 18-24 year old immigrants in work. So, I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference.
FWIW, there are a lot of EU immigrants in low skilled jobs: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/ reckons that 14% of EU born are in that category, with another 30% in Medium-Low Skilled.
Would you agree, that a £25k minimum salary for an immigrant, would quickly raise the wages of the average unskilled Brit?
Because that’s what the anecdotal evidence of the past couple of years tends to suggest.
Secondly, there's this kinda weird fetishisation of high skilled immigration. If our education system worked brilliantly, we'd have low skilled immigration and not high skilled. We want to produce engineers and doctors and programmers and the like; people earning good salaries. I have no dream for my child to be washing dishes, serving coffees or asking "would you like fries with that?". If you look at Singapore, they do an incredible job of educating their workforce, and that means that their economy lacks low skilled workers to do menial tasks. Haven't they got it right? Isn't it kinda bonkers to discourage kids from getting an education by telling them that jobs for graduates won't pay so well, because we're importing lots of people to compete with them?
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
I don't think it could be moved to keep to the same schedule. I think it would be quite simple to move it to Summer 2023. It would be hilarious if they did that. They won't though.
Tories questioning election validity and placing hurdles to voting are going down a Trumpian path. Not good.
Im always amazed why people are so anti voter id. You need id to collect a parcel from the post office, or to go in most pubs on a Saturday night in a town centre, why not for voting.
They seem to think its a dastardly plot against the young who might vote Labour. I assume the young never need to pick up parcels.
It is a dastardly plot, and anyway, in my admittedly limited experience, you do not need *photo* ID to collect parcels from the Post Office.
Re ID cards generally, it is possible there might be less fuss now that so many people have name badges at work. Even students at (some) local schools wear lanyards on the bus. I'd imagine their name badges contain NFC chips to open doors at work.
This could really happen now. A near wipe-out event for the Tories. Down to 100 MPs or fewer
No it isn't. They were heading for near wipe out under Truss ie 22% or less but 28% is just 1% lower than Brown Labour got in 2010 and 1% higher than the 27% Foot Labour got in 1983. Not great but not wipeout either.
Still clearly over 100 Tory MPs too like 1997 but unlike 1997 Labour then has to deal with an awful economic outlook, not the rosy economic situation Blair and Brown inherited
But we are only a short distance into the downturn, which will last two years, or more (right up to the election)
After 20 months+ of solid pain, where will the Tory vote be?
Could go down to the low 20s. If Labour get 45-50 - let's say 48 - and the Tories get, say, 24, that would give:
Labour: 480 Tories: 76
An extinction level event. Like the Liberals in the early 20th century. The blues might not ever recover from that
Of course this is still just a possibility. But it is one that should be discussed, because it is ghoulishly entertaining
What a truck looks like after it has been nearby a HIMARs missile loaded with tungsten balls. From a distance it looks fine but the entirety of it is full of small holes and unusable.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
This could really happen now. A near wipe-out event for the Tories. Down to 100 MPs or fewer
No it isn't. They were heading for near wipe out under Truss ie 22% or less but 28% is just 1% lower than Brown Labour got in 2010 and 1% higher than the 27% Foot Labour got in 1983. Not great but not wipeout either.
Still clearly over 100 Tory MPs too like 1997 but unlike 1997 Labour then has to deal with an awful economic outlook, not the rosy economic situation Blair and Brown inherited
But we are only a short distance into the downturn, which will last two years, or more (right up to the election)
After 20 months+ of solid pain, where will the Tory vote be?
Could go down to the low 20s. If Labour get 45-50 - let's say 48 - and the Tories get, say, 24, that would give:
Labour: 480 Tories: 76
An extinction level event. Like the Liberals in the early 20th century. The blues might not ever recover from that
Of course this is still just a possibility. But it is one that should be discussed, because it is ghoulishly entertaining
It will last longer than that, certainly if the Ukraine war goes beyond that, then it will be Labour's problem to deal with high inflation and the deficit. Labour will then become unpopular and the pendulum will swing back again. Remember in May 2010 Brown Labour got just 29% but by December 2010 Ed Miliband Labour was polling 40% after the difficult economic decisions the Coalition had to take.
The Tories were heading for low 20s under Truss, not now. Now they are polling close to Brown Labour 2010.
The Liberals only faced an extinction event in the early 20th century as the Labour Party overtook them as the main non Tory Party.
Unless the Tories fall below RefUK as the main party of the right, as the Canadian Tories fell below the populist right Canadian Reform Party in 1993 (the 2 eventually merging in 2003 to form today's Conservative Party of Canada) or Les Republicains have fallen below Le Pen's Party or Forza Italia below Brothers of Italy, then it doesn't matter how many seats they win as long as they are the main opposition in most of the UK they will not face an extinction level event.
I think the Iranian protests may have gone, as Leon suggests, beyond the point that brutal repression might control them.
Does Iran become another Syria, or will the regime fall ?
Do not underestimate how brutal regimes can be, even those who do not believe they have God on their side.
I don't, which is why I posed the question I did. The point is that this has gone beyond protests. It's probably not a big step to civil war.
Who has the guns? The police, the army and the air force. Whose side are they on? Schoolgirls aren't going to topple the regime, even now they've been joined by students and middle class professionals. I wish them well, but fear the worst.
I asked a UK expert on Iran last week how he sees the position. His view is that it's deadlocked - the protestors don't have the capacity or the allies to topple the government, but are too widespread (it's really not just a "unis in Teheran" thing) to suppress. The regime is opting for selective brutality, so that anyone going on a demo has to reckon that they might be beaten or even killed, even though much of the time they'll get away it. He cautioned that if the deadlock was broken, e.g. by the military, we might not necessarily find the results to be an improvement.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
This is a very easy problem to solve. If you turn up at the polling station without ID, they take a Polaroid photo of you and you sign the back of it.
After the election, there is a spot check of Polaroid signers. (10% or so should do it.)
I don't reckon many people will wish to get their photo taken (and to sign it) committing the crime of personation.
What problem are these reforms trying to solve? Are they claiming widespread voter fraud? Sounds familiar.
They are trying to solve the issue of personation.
Now, we don't know how big an issue it is. It might be almost unknown. Or it might simply be that people rarely get caught.
My suggestion is (a) cheap, (b) easy to implement, (c) deters personation, (d) allows the amount of personation to be determined, and (e) doesn't discourage voters without ID.
Why do we need to change a system that has produced widely accepted fair election results for years?
The implication is that something is broken. What is it? It’s proto-Trumpian. Wise not to go there.
Wise not to go there? Isn't that turning a blind eye to something that even the electoral commission says is a perceived and actual issue?
The report says there is no widespread fraud. They are dealing with perceptions. These perceptions are now commonly generated, exaggerated, and manipulated for partisan ends. We see that in the US.
Sometimes in life the cure is worse than the problem. That I fear is what we will see with these proposals. They will deny more valid voters than stop actual fraud.
Personally I would favour a bank holiday and compulsory turn-up, but that is a whole other story.
So localised fraud is OK, it's only when it is widespread you will start thinking about doing something about it?
They say in the report it is both an actual and perceived weakness of the current system. Of course it is hard to get firm numbers on it, but they do report how in NI there has not been a single claim of personation since the measures were introduced.
They also reported that there was no reduction in participation due to these measures in NI. That is always massively overblown as a potential problem.
Of course local fraud is not ok, but as the report says it has been "detected and punished". Good!
Good, the detected cases are punished. It doesn't say that all cases are detected, does it?
Of courses, but it also said there is no evidence there is a widespread problem. This is good news! Cases are detected and punished and it's not a widespread problem.
Some cases are detected and punished. They would be going on about how it is a real weakness of the system if they weren't convinced it was happening, even at a low level.
In my opinion voter fraud shouldn't be tolerated at any level.
But suppressing people likely to vote because they don't drive and carry a licence everywhere with them, and who forgot to pick up their passport on their way to work, to vote on their return, for them then not to bother is OK.
We should be encouraging legitimate voters and punishing fraudsters. What about my acquaintance who had a property in Cardiff North and in the Vale of Glamorgan during GE2017, and boasted about his superiority at having two votes in what were then marginals? You are not worrying about him and his wife because they used their double votes for the correct party.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
But that's just it. The Qataris DID agree to allow alcohol at stadiums. So this is them breaking their contract with FIFA
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
Well, they have obviously promised to set aside local laws, or they wouldn't allow alcohol in the special World Cup village.
If you think that FIFA (and Budweiser) did not have contractual clauses around sale of alcohol in venues, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Qatar is flexing its muscles, because it thinks that FIFA has no alternative.
You can’t bitch about an ageing demographic on one hand, and immigration on the other.
Well you can, but you’re effectively abandoning any growth strategy whatsoever.
The last refuge of Brexiters like @Sandpit is that “it was migration to blame”, while he literally posts from a territory developed, staffed and managed by expats.
And please don’t give me “low skill”. My first British job was opening envelopes in a mail room. My last job was running a tech start-up with $250m revenue.
Yes, you absolutely can, because, unless immigration is on a ridiculous scale (i.e. multiples of current mass immigration levels), it barely dents the age profile of the organization. Certainly compared with fairly tiny changes in the fertility rate.
And yes the skill level is incredibly relevant if you want to impact growth in per capita income. Using cherry picked anecdotes and pretending they are at all representative is sheer intellectual dishonesty. My grandmother smoked and lived until she was 93. Does that mean smoking doesn't affect life expectancy?
British demography *is* better than European peers, though, because immigration.
Only partially. A big part of it is the native birth rate is higher. But the maths speaks for itself. You only need to do some small number crunching to realise you need net immigration in the seven figures to make up for a 0.2 point decline in the fertility rate.
Thankfully @rcs1000 is here to show you up for the gibberish merchant you are.
Stop blaming migrants.
It is a deflection from the core issues behind poor British growth, which in essence - across public and private sectors - is a bias toward rentierism and a bias against investment.
Why do you conflate blaming migration as an economic phenomenon with blaming the migrants themselves?
As for rentierism, do you not think there is a connection? In the most direct example of landlordism, renting properties to migrants has enabled a lot of people to live well without doing anything productive.
Because we hear too much of “ten to a room” shanties on PB, as if that is in any way typical of the British experience with migration.
Why is renting to migrants “the most direct example of landlordism”? You’ve just made that up.
Migration, and especially European migration, hugely benefited the British economy. The pity of it is that it may have masked underlying weaknesses that successive governments failed to address.
I know we agree on very little but I agree with you entirely on this.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
But that's just it. The Qataris DID agree to allow alcohol at stadiums. So this is them breaking their contract with FIFA
Alcohol will be allowed in fanzones but I don't think Qatar was bidding based on unlimited alcohol being allowed in Stadiums. FIFA knew they were awarding the Cup to a very conservative nation. Many fans will be also be Middle Eastern and not want much alcohol.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
Tiny, insignificant numbers. The ID proposals will do far more to warp representation and election results than any of the identified voter fraud. But of course the calculation by the Tories is that it will warp it in their favour. Hence the proposals.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
Well, they have obviously promised to set aside local laws, or they wouldn't allow alcohol in the special World Cup village.
If you think that FIFA (and Budweiser) did not have contractual clauses around sale of alcohol in venues, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Qatar is flexing its muscles, because it thinks that FIFA has no alternative.
Fuck 'em.
FIFA could move the games, fairly easily.
That is not the same as moving the tournament.
Unless FIFA are also going to fly all the fans over and put them up in alternative hotels as well
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
You can’t bitch about an ageing demographic on one hand, and immigration on the other.
Well you can, but you’re effectively abandoning any growth strategy whatsoever.
The last refuge of Brexiters like @Sandpit is that “it was migration to blame”, while he literally posts from a territory developed, staffed and managed by expats.
And please don’t give me “low skill”. My first British job was opening envelopes in a mail room. My last job was running a tech start-up with $250m revenue.
Yes, you absolutely can, because, unless immigration is on a ridiculous scale (i.e. multiples of current mass immigration levels), it barely dents the age profile of the organization. Certainly compared with fairly tiny changes in the fertility rate.
And yes the skill level is incredibly relevant if you want to impact growth in per capita income. Using cherry picked anecdotes and pretending they are at all representative is sheer intellectual dishonesty. My grandmother smoked and lived until she was 93. Does that mean smoking doesn't affect life expectancy?
I'm not sure that's true: the developed countries with the best dependency ratios and healthiest looking population pyramids (Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent the UK) have the highest levels of immigration.
Conversely, those countries with the worst dependency ratios and the scariest looks population pyramids (Japan and Italy) have the lowest levels of immigration.
The level, and the skill, of the immigration, needs to be with the consent of the people - not something that the people think is imposed on them against their wishes.
That’s a not unimportant point. But you spoil it with your general economically illiterate diatribes against European migration.
I don’t have a problem with European migration - I do have a problem with the fetishisation of mostly unskilled immigration from EU countries, over mostly skilled immigration from other countries in the world.
IIRC, median incomes for EU immigrants in any given age bracket were slightly above native born levels, so I'm not sure it's fair to say it was "mostly unskilled".
Ooh, that’s a good way to screw with statistics - the mostly unskilled 18-21 year old immigrants, for example, earning way more than all the natives of that age racking up debt at university.
Also, taking averages that include bankers, don’t deal with the fact that there were literally millions of immigrants working minimum wage jobs in retail, hospitality, logistics, and the sort of sh!tty ‘self-employed’ jobs doing deliveries, that paid almost nothing in practice.
Using median means the banker doesn't change the equation. Median means there are 50% below, and 50% above.
Your point regarding lower age brackets is fair - but as it's based on people in work, you're comparing 18-24 year old Brits in work with 18-24 year old immigrants in work. So, I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference.
FWIW, there are a lot of EU immigrants in low skilled jobs: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/ reckons that 14% of EU born are in that category, with another 30% in Medium-Low Skilled.
Would you agree, that a £25k minimum salary for an immigrant, would quickly raise the wages of the average unskilled Brit?
Because that’s what the anecdotal evidence of the past couple of years tends to suggest.
Secondly, there's this kinda weird fetishisation of high skilled immigration. If our education system worked brilliantly, we'd have low skilled immigration and not high skilled. We want to produce engineers and doctors and programmers and the like; people earning good salaries. I have no dream for my child to be washing dishes, serving coffees or asking "would you like fries with that?". If you look at Singapore, they do an incredible job of educating their workforce, and that means that their economy lacks low skilled workers to do menial tasks. Haven't they got it right? Isn't it kinda bonkers to discourage kids from getting an education by telling them that jobs for graduates won't pay so well, because we're importing lots of people to compete with them?
That's a good point. But Singapore haven't got it right in how low paid migrant workers are treated there.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
But that's just it. The Qataris DID agree to allow alcohol at stadiums. So this is them breaking their contract with FIFA
Alcohol will be allowed in fanzones but I don't think Qatar was bidding based on unlimited alcohol being allowed in Stadiums. FIFA knew they were awarding the Cup to a very conservative nation. Many fans will be also be Middle Eastern and not want much alcohol.
You can’t bitch about an ageing demographic on one hand, and immigration on the other.
Well you can, but you’re effectively abandoning any growth strategy whatsoever.
The last refuge of Brexiters like @Sandpit is that “it was migration to blame”, while he literally posts from a territory developed, staffed and managed by expats.
And please don’t give me “low skill”. My first British job was opening envelopes in a mail room. My last job was running a tech start-up with $250m revenue.
Yes, you absolutely can, because, unless immigration is on a ridiculous scale (i.e. multiples of current mass immigration levels), it barely dents the age profile of the organization. Certainly compared with fairly tiny changes in the fertility rate.
And yes the skill level is incredibly relevant if you want to impact growth in per capita income. Using cherry picked anecdotes and pretending they are at all representative is sheer intellectual dishonesty. My grandmother smoked and lived until she was 93. Does that mean smoking doesn't affect life expectancy?
I'm not sure that's true: the developed countries with the best dependency ratios and healthiest looking population pyramids (Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent the UK) have the highest levels of immigration.
Conversely, those countries with the worst dependency ratios and the scariest looks population pyramids (Japan and Italy) have the lowest levels of immigration.
The level, and the skill, of the immigration, needs to be with the consent of the people - not something that the people think is imposed on them against their wishes.
That’s a not unimportant point. But you spoil it with your general economically illiterate diatribes against European migration.
I don’t have a problem with European migration - I do have a problem with the fetishisation of mostly unskilled immigration from EU countries, over mostly skilled immigration from other countries in the world.
IIRC, median incomes for EU immigrants in any given age bracket were slightly above native born levels, so I'm not sure it's fair to say it was "mostly unskilled".
Ooh, that’s a good way to screw with statistics - the mostly unskilled 18-21 year old immigrants, for example, earning way more than all the natives of that age racking up debt at university.
Also, taking averages that include bankers, don’t deal with the fact that there were literally millions of immigrants working minimum wage jobs in retail, hospitality, logistics, and the sort of sh!tty ‘self-employed’ jobs doing deliveries, that paid almost nothing in practice.
Using median means the banker doesn't change the equation. Median means there are 50% below, and 50% above.
Your point regarding lower age brackets is fair - but as it's based on people in work, you're comparing 18-24 year old Brits in work with 18-24 year old immigrants in work. So, I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference.
FWIW, there are a lot of EU immigrants in low skilled jobs: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/ reckons that 14% of EU born are in that category, with another 30% in Medium-Low Skilled.
Would you agree, that a £25k minimum salary for an immigrant, would quickly raise the wages of the average unskilled Brit?
Because that’s what the anecdotal evidence of the past couple of years tends to suggest.
Secondly, there's this kinda weird fetishisation of high skilled immigration. If our education system worked brilliantly, we'd have low skilled immigration and not high skilled. We want to produce engineers and doctors and programmers and the like; people earning good salaries. I have no dream for my child to be washing dishes, serving coffees or asking "would you like fries with that?". If you look at Singapore, they do an incredible job of educating their workforce, and that means that their economy lacks low skilled workers to do menial tasks. Haven't they got it right? Isn't it kinda bonkers to discourage kids from getting an education by telling them that jobs for graduates won't pay so well, because we're importing lots of people to compete with them?
The difference is that when companies look to locate high productivity operation, they look at whether the high skill set exists in that place. So the presence of high skill people actually net creates jobs more than filling them. And of course they spend more in the local economy than they cost in terms of the extra burdens on housing and transport. And they net contribute to the Treasury, allowing additional support for schools and hospitals.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is not potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression data on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
Tiny, insignificant numbers. The ID proposals will do far more to warp representation and election results than any of the identified voter fraud. But of course the calculation by the Tories is that it will warp it in their favour. Hence the proposals.
An interesting point is that their intentions (which I agree are almost certainly as you say) may be misinformed. The ID requirement will discourage marginalised people of doubtful legal status (who tend not to vote anyway), young people, and the elderly, the latter two groups because they tend to be more disorganised and mislay ID. I wonder if the last category, which is heavily Tory, may not be deterred most by new requirements.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
I agree. But not if that means that many other people don't get a vote at all.
I’ve always been supportive of ID cards which mean it’s a level playing field for all those voting .
These new ID rules from the government are nothing more than a blatant attempt to make it more difficult for younger people to vote .
It’s likely many will turn up , be told their ID isn’t suitable and not bother voting . It really is utterly despicable that the Tories have decided to dis-enfranchise a section of voters to allegedly address a problem that doesn’t exist .
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
You can’t bitch about an ageing demographic on one hand, and immigration on the other.
Well you can, but you’re effectively abandoning any growth strategy whatsoever.
The last refuge of Brexiters like @Sandpit is that “it was migration to blame”, while he literally posts from a territory developed, staffed and managed by expats.
And please don’t give me “low skill”. My first British job was opening envelopes in a mail room. My last job was running a tech start-up with $250m revenue.
Yes, you absolutely can, because, unless immigration is on a ridiculous scale (i.e. multiples of current mass immigration levels), it barely dents the age profile of the organization. Certainly compared with fairly tiny changes in the fertility rate.
And yes the skill level is incredibly relevant if you want to impact growth in per capita income. Using cherry picked anecdotes and pretending they are at all representative is sheer intellectual dishonesty. My grandmother smoked and lived until she was 93. Does that mean smoking doesn't affect life expectancy?
I'm not sure that's true: the developed countries with the best dependency ratios and healthiest looking population pyramids (Australia, Canada, and to a lesser extent the UK) have the highest levels of immigration.
Conversely, those countries with the worst dependency ratios and the scariest looks population pyramids (Japan and Italy) have the lowest levels of immigration.
The level, and the skill, of the immigration, needs to be with the consent of the people - not something that the people think is imposed on them against their wishes.
That’s a not unimportant point. But you spoil it with your general economically illiterate diatribes against European migration.
I don’t have a problem with European migration - I do have a problem with the fetishisation of mostly unskilled immigration from EU countries, over mostly skilled immigration from other countries in the world.
IIRC, median incomes for EU immigrants in any given age bracket were slightly above native born levels, so I'm not sure it's fair to say it was "mostly unskilled".
Ooh, that’s a good way to screw with statistics - the mostly unskilled 18-21 year old immigrants, for example, earning way more than all the natives of that age racking up debt at university.
Also, taking averages that include bankers, don’t deal with the fact that there were literally millions of immigrants working minimum wage jobs in retail, hospitality, logistics, and the sort of sh!tty ‘self-employed’ jobs doing deliveries, that paid almost nothing in practice.
Using median means the banker doesn't change the equation. Median means there are 50% below, and 50% above.
Your point regarding lower age brackets is fair - but as it's based on people in work, you're comparing 18-24 year old Brits in work with 18-24 year old immigrants in work. So, I'm not sure it makes that much of a difference.
FWIW, there are a lot of EU immigrants in low skilled jobs: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/ reckons that 14% of EU born are in that category, with another 30% in Medium-Low Skilled.
Would you agree, that a £25k minimum salary for an immigrant, would quickly raise the wages of the average unskilled Brit?
Because that’s what the anecdotal evidence of the past couple of years tends to suggest.
Secondly, there's this kinda weird fetishisation of high skilled immigration. If our education system worked brilliantly, we'd have low skilled immigration and not high skilled. We want to produce engineers and doctors and programmers and the like; people earning good salaries. I have no dream for my child to be washing dishes, serving coffees or asking "would you like fries with that?". If you look at Singapore, they do an incredible job of educating their workforce, and that means that their economy lacks low skilled workers to do menial tasks. Haven't they got it right? Isn't it kinda bonkers to discourage kids from getting an education by telling them that jobs for graduates won't pay so well, because we're importing lots of people to compete with them?
That's a good point. But Singapore haven't got it right in how low paid migrant workers are treated there.
There's no such thing as a generic shortage of labour. There is just a shortage of labour at the price employers want to pay. If the job can be automated for cheaper than the higher wages, it raises productivity. That is a good thing.
If the job can't be automated but is important enough, employers will raise wages enough to get it filled. That is a good thing.
If the job isn't important enough, it means it is low productivity and the country moves out of that activity because it's not worth anyone's time because we are all doing better. That is economic growth. That is a good thing.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
lol. The Romans enslaved millions, and sometimes butchered entire cities, or moved entire populations. They were absolutely brutal and relished it. They perfected crucifixion as a means of execution. They fed people to wild animals for entertainment
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
No. The Roman Empire improved conditions for a small number of people at the top of the societies it conquered. It did little or nothing to improve the lives of the general mass of population - will apart from killing many of them. The average Briton was far worse off after the Romans arrived than before they did not least because most of them were cleared from the land to facilitate the villa landscape which dominated southern Britain for most of the occupation. The same applied in Gaul, Germany, North Africa and the Middle East.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
But that's just it. The Qataris DID agree to allow alcohol at stadiums. So this is them breaking their contract with FIFA
Alcohol will be allowed in fanzones but I don't think Qatar was bidding based on unlimited alcohol being allowed in Stadiums. FIFA knew they were awarding the Cup to a very conservative nation. Many fans will be also be Middle Eastern and not want much alcohol.
No alcohol in stadiums might also cut hoolaganism
I hope that drunken fans destroy Qatar
They won’t be very drunken if they are having to drink £12 budweiser.
On the subject of the World Cup, FIFA has shown they have no balls.
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Where did Qatar promise to set aside its laws for the World Cup? Soccer is now a global game and not all nations have the same laws as liberal western Europe. Or FIFA can abandon soccer as a global game and just shift back to mainly European World Cups with the odd trip to the Americas
But that's just it. The Qataris DID agree to allow alcohol at stadiums. So this is them breaking their contract with FIFA
Alcohol will be allowed in fanzones but I don't think Qatar was bidding based on unlimited alcohol being allowed in Stadiums. FIFA knew they were awarding the Cup to a very conservative nation. Many fans will be also be Middle Eastern and not want much alcohol.
No alcohol in stadiums might also cut hoolaganism
I hope that drunken fans destroy Qatar
In Iran their government are going to execute 18k protestors. If drunken fans get even boisterous we face Qatar summarily executing them - likely with FIFA representatives making excuses.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
Because forms get sent to both residences? No mention of disambiguation here.
I do remember people living in rUK boasting about voting in the 2014 Scottish indpendence referendum as theyt had holiday homes, but that was *just before* the IER was introduced in Scotland - for some reason later than in E&W which got it in June 2014. So that doesn't prove anything either way re IER.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
Not always, Zimbabwe for example was much more prosperous under the British than Mugabe. Hong Kong was freer under us than the PRC.
Singapore also started to develop as a free trade port when Raffles founded it
I’ve always been supportive of ID cards which mean it’s a level playing field for all those voting .
These new ID rules from the government are nothing more than a blatant attempt to make it more difficult for younger people to vote .
It’s likely many will turn up , be told their ID isn’t suitable and not bother voting . It really is utterly despicable that the Tories have decided to dis-enfranchise a section of voters to allegedly address a problem that doesn’t exist .
They’re addressing a problem that does exist. The threat of too many young people voting Labour.
تقارير عن قطع واضطراب شديد بخدمة الإنترنت في عدد من المدن والمحافظات الإيرانية. #احتجاجات_إيران Translated from Arabic Reports of severe interruption and disruption of internet service in a number of Iranian cities and provinces.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
No. The Roman Empire improved conditions for a small number of people at the top of the societies it conquered. It did little or nothing to improve the lives of the general mass of population - will apart from killing many of them. The average Briton was far worse off after the Romans arrived than before they did not least because most of them were cleared from the land to facilitate the villa landscape which dominated southern Britain for most of the occupation. The same applied in Gaul, Germany, North Africa and the Middle East.
And they didn't change the water in their famous baths very often either. Ewwww. (Apart from the bath at Bath, but there was plenty of free hot water there anyway.)
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
Keir Starmer is absolutely determined to win power.
I find all the "never kissed a Tory" stuff ridiculous.
I had a conversation a while back where some of my left wing friends were talking about how they were in an echo chamber on social media, and recognised that was an issue.
The look on their faces when I went through a list of our mutual friends and told them which ones I knew had voted Tory multiple times was priceless.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
I'm not sure that's entirely true for the Romans: there were some pretty terrible famines when the Central Roman government took food (forcibly) from the provinces back to ensure Rome didn't starve; and there was a lot of brutal repression.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
Saw the most bizarre bit of branding in the supermarket today.
Elton John Marmite.
Is he really that divisive???
Isn’t Elton John pretty much a National Treasure?
I went to see Reg at Swansea in the summer. I was dreading the day. Forty five years too late I thought, and I'd seen the "pub-singer" Snickers ad. But, he was excellent!
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
The Roman Empire mainly improved the living standards of Italians, and later on, some of the local upper classes. The Provincials were there to be fleeced. There does seem to have been some gradual economic growth across the Empire, up to about 250, then a marked drop to 300, when the Empire stabilised. After 400 in the West, living standards dropped markedly, as things fell apart.
Generally speaking there was more economic growth in the British Empire than its Roman counterpart.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
F*** me! Reading that, the solution would be universal identity cards.
I think it can be solved without requiring a database of identities. The electoral commission certainly made no mention of one being needed.
But wouldn't it solve all your dilemmas in one hit? So it might elicit further problems, but that doesn't seem to worry you or the Electoral Commission.
The pollsters really seem to have trouble resolving vote share for the smaller national parties. Green in particular which swings wildly from 3% up to 9%.
NEW: Public and Commercial Services Union which represents civil servants announce first round industrial action, starting mid-December and lasing for a period of a month "throughout the festive period" and into the New Year
This will be "sustained industrial action" and will cause "significant disruption" at the UK's borders, ports and airports
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
I'm not sure that's entirely true for the Romans: there were some pretty terrible famines when the Central Roman government took food (forcibly) from the provinces back to ensure Rome didn't starve; and there was a lot of brutal repression.
Galen wrote about how during famines, the urban elites would forcibly requisition food from the countryside.
Gibbon was utterly wrong when he wrote about how the Second Century was the happiest time to be alive. Europe was much freer and more prosperous in his time, than it had been then.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
F*** me! Reading that, the solution would be universal identity cards.
If it weren't for privacy issues then the ultimate solution would (will, in due course) be a chip embedded in the finger which contains all information about an individual: passport and visa data, bank/credit card for contactless transactions, medical history and NHS number, NI number, vaccine status etc.
Big brother nightmare but of course the technology for all of this already exists.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
F*** me! Reading that, the solution would be universal identity cards.
I think it can be solved without requiring a database of identities. The electoral commission certainly made no mention of one being needed.
But wouldn't it solve all your dilemmas in one hit? So it might elicit further problems, but that doesn't seem to worry you or the Electoral Commission.
Well they don't seem to think a centralized ID database is needed for identifying duplicate entries. In any case, you can see that this is under investigation.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
The problem with ID cards isn't the ID, it's the national database that goes behind it.
Prove there is a real problem with voter fraud at elections and then make a proposal to deal with it. Don't start insisting on creating blocks to legitimate voters using a non existent problem as an excuse. It is positively Trumpian in its deceit.
The electoral commission themselves say that it is both a perceived and actual weakness of the system, and go on to say that previous occurrences have been identified and people punished.
But what Richard is suggesting and I agree, is you have identified a minor issue on the one hand and resolved it by creating a major issue on the other hand (in the form of either deliberate or accidental industrial scale voter suppression).
So, it's a real issue, but at a small level. What level of voter fraud is acceptable?
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
"What level of voter fraud is acceptable?"
A level whereby the resolution is potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Sorry, I didn't actually see that comment. I don't think people should have two votes, and if they are they should be stopped from doing so.
So what are you going to do to stop multiple property owners in multiple seats in multiple LA areas having multiple votes?
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
How are they on the electoral register twice after the introduction of IER?
If he and his now ex-wife were living at both properties, being charged council tax in two different LA areas and he completed the electoral roll as head of the household there is not the manpower to cross check whether someone is double counted. If he get's caught he's up S*** Street, but he didn't. You are delusional if you don't believe this issue exists even on a tiny scale. But it's a tiny scale and probably benefits Team Tory which means it doesn't really matter.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
Why are you calling me delusional? I have in no way denied that it exists. I agree with you it is an issue, and should not be tolerated at any level.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
F*** me! Reading that, the solution would be universal identity cards.
If it weren't for privacy issues then the ultimate solution would (will, in due course) be a chip embedded in the finger which contains all information about an individual: passport and visa data, bank/credit card for contactless transactions, medical history and NHS number, NI number, vaccine status etc.
Big brother nightmare but of course the technology for all of this already exists.
There were some on here a year or eighteen months ago, thankfully departed to Political Conspiracies.com , who believed we already had one of those in our arm of choice, courtesy of Kate Bingham.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
This thread seems quite comprehensive (and scary, if say you own Twitter...)
I've seen a lot of people asking "why does everyone think Twitter is doomed?"
As an SRE and sysadmin with 10+ years of industry experience, I wanted to write up a few scenarios that are real threats to the integrity of the bird site over the coming weeks.
Comments
We have tax rises and spending cuts. We should be counting every penny, not introducing a new expense.
Still clearly over 100 Tory MPs too like 1997 but unlike 1997 Labour then has to deal with an awful economic outlook, not the rosy economic situation Blair and Brown inherited
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?”
“I condemn all forms of racism.”
“Is that a yes?”
“I condemn all forms of racism.”
“Including antisemitism?”
“Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
For a start, have real British wages risen more than peers in other countries? I mean, we've seen sharp rises in wages in the last 18 months, but we've seen that everywhere as part of the post Covid rebound. I mean, we've done better than Germany, but look at the US (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/wage-growth) or Portugal (https://tradingeconomics.com/portugal/wage-growth) and compare the numbers to the UK (https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/wage-growth).
Secondly, there's this kinda weird fetishisation of high skilled immigration. If our education system worked brilliantly, we'd have low skilled immigration and not high skilled. We want to produce engineers and doctors and programmers and the like; people earning good salaries. I have no dream for my child to be washing dishes, serving coffees or asking "would you like fries with that?". If you look at Singapore, they do an incredible job of educating their workforce, and that means that their economy lacks low skilled workers to do menial tasks. Haven't they got it right? Isn't it kinda bonkers to discourage kids from getting an education by telling them that jobs for graduates won't pay so well, because we're importing lots of people to compete with them?
The World Cup could be moved to the UK or Germany relatively easily. Yes, it would have massive costs. But you know what, the World Cup has massive revenues. Qatar has reneged on its promises. FIFA should grow a pair.
Re ID cards generally, it is possible there might be less fuss now that so many people have name badges at work. Even students at (some) local schools wear lanyards on the bus. I'd imagine their name badges contain NFC chips to open doors at work.
After 20 months+ of solid pain, where will the Tory vote be?
Could go down to the low 20s. If Labour get 45-50 - let's say 48 - and the Tories get, say, 24, that would give:
Labour: 480
Tories: 76
An extinction level event. Like the Liberals in the early 20th century. The blues might not ever recover from that
Of course this is still just a possibility. But it is one that should be discussed, because it is ghoulishly entertaining
If it does that to armour, God alone knows what each missile does to a football pitch of conscripts.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/11/18/world/russia-ukraine-war-news/swedish-investigators-find-traces-of-explosives-on-debris-from-the-ruptured-nord-stream-pipelines?smid=url-share
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
The Tories were heading for low 20s under Truss, not now. Now they are polling close to Brown Labour 2010.
The Liberals only faced an extinction event in the early 20th century as the Labour Party overtook them as the main non Tory Party.
Unless the Tories fall below RefUK as the main party of the right, as the Canadian Tories fell below the populist right Canadian Reform Party in 1993 (the 2 eventually merging in 2003 to form today's Conservative Party of Canada) or Les Republicains have fallen below Le Pen's Party or Forza Italia below Brothers of Italy, then it doesn't matter how many seats they win as long as they are the main opposition in most of the UK they will not face an extinction level event.
We should be encouraging legitimate voters and punishing fraudsters. What about my acquaintance who had a property in Cardiff North and in the Vale of Glamorgan during GE2017, and boasted about his superiority at having two votes in what were then marginals? You are not worrying about him and his wife because they used their double votes for the correct party.
It's b*******s!
If you think that FIFA (and Budweiser) did not have contractual clauses around sale of alcohol in venues, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Qatar is flexing its muscles, because it thinks that FIFA has no alternative.
Fuck 'em.
No alcohol in stadiums might also cut hoolaganism
That is not the same as moving the tournament.
Unless FIFA are also going to fly all the fans over and put them up in alternative hotels as well
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
I don't agree on your second point. In the proposal document they describe the experience of introducing these schemes in NI, which resulted in a big increase in the perceived safety of votes, and no decrease in participation.
I'm sure there are other recent examples where of voter ID being introduced to look for what effects it actually has, rather than just assuming it's going to crush voter turnout in specific groups.
ID for elections = good
ID cards are proposed by Labour, I wonder if there is a theme here
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
A level whereby the resolution is not potentially more damaging that the problem. You have no evidence to suggest my second assertion is false, maybe voter suppression data on the back of introducing ID cards needs work.
I note you remain unconcerned at my two property owner anecdote, who benefitted from double the votes in two constituencies under two LAs. You don't mind that sort of voter fraud because it helps gives you the colour of Government you desire.
Keir Starmer is absolutely determined to win power.
https://twitter.com/intellect_iran/status/1593616393504702464?s=20&t=OfbuddfPg6Rsr162dsYm2w
LAB: 50% (+3)
CON: 29% (+3)
LDM: 7% (-3)
GRN: 3% (-5)
RFM: 2% (=)
Via @IpsosUK, 9-16 Nov.
Changes w/ 5-12 Oct.
These new ID rules from the government are nothing more than a blatant attempt to make it more difficult for younger people to vote .
It’s likely many will turn up , be told their ID isn’t suitable and not bother voting . It really is utterly despicable that the Tories have decided to dis-enfranchise a section of voters to allegedly address a problem that doesn’t exist .
Well to be honest the fraud is so minor it's hardly worth bothering with.
If the job can't be automated but is important enough, employers will raise wages enough to get it filled. That is a good thing.
If the job isn't important enough, it means it is low productivity and the country moves out of that activity because it's not worth anyone's time because we are all doing better. That is economic growth. That is a good thing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/about-individual-electoral-registration-ier/about-individual-electoral-registration#getting-on-the-register
I do remember people living in rUK boasting about voting in the 2014 Scottish indpendence referendum as theyt had holiday homes, but that was *just before* the IER was introduced in Scotland - for some reason later than in E&W which got it in June 2014. So that doesn't prove anything either way re IER.
Singapore also started to develop as a free trade port when Raffles founded it
تقارير عن قطع واضطراب شديد بخدمة الإنترنت في عدد من المدن والمحافظات الإيرانية.
#احتجاجات_إيران
Translated from Arabic
Reports of severe interruption and disruption of internet service in a number of Iranian cities and provinces.
https://twitter.com/IranIntl_Ar/status/1593618428924928001?s=20&t=OfbuddfPg6Rsr162dsYm2w
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
Costa Rica, Croatia
Sweepstake 2:
Cameroon, Ecuador
I had a conversation a while back where some of my left wing friends were talking about how they were in an echo chamber on social media, and recognised that was an issue.
The look on their faces when I went through a list of our mutual friends and told them which ones I knew had voted Tory multiple times was priceless.
Don't forget too half of Welsh males are called David Jones, so cross checking here would be impossible.
The electoral commission (yes, them again) also have proposals in this area.
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/changing-electoral-law/a-modern-electoral-register/modernising-electoral-registration-feasibility-studies/better-detection-and-management-duplicate-registration-applications
Leon: What about the Romans?
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
LAB: 48% (-1)
CON: 21% (-5)
LDM: 10% (+3)
GRN: 7% (+2)
RFM: 5% (-4)
SNP: 5% (+2)
Via @Omnisis, 17 Nov.
Changes w/ 11 Nov.
Generally speaking there was more economic growth in the British Empire than its Roman counterpart.
That's the potential wipe out territory I was explaining to @HYUFD earlier
Baxtered, that =
Labour: 517
Cons: 33
LDs: 27
SNP: 52
SNP become the Opposition. Tories almost in fourth
The pollsters really seem to have trouble resolving vote share for the smaller national parties. Green in particular which swings wildly from 3% up to 9%.
Inc DKs
Stay out : 34% (-3)
Rejoin : 53% (+5)
Excluding DKs
Stay out : 39 (-4)
Rejoin : 61 (+4)
(changes from 11th Nov in brackets) https://twitter.com/Omnisis/status/1593613864050085891/video/1
This will be "sustained industrial action" and will cause "significant disruption" at the UK's borders, ports and airports
https://twitter.com/camillahmturner/status/1593621966677762048
35% (-4) - Sir Keir Starmer (Lab)
30% (-2) - Rishi Sunak (Con)
35% (+6) - Don’t know
Sunak now third in a two horse race
Gibbon was utterly wrong when he wrote about how the Second Century was the happiest time to be alive. Europe was much freer and more prosperous in his time, than it had been then.
Big brother nightmare but of course the technology for all of this already exists.
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup.
Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy.
My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
I've seen a lot of people asking "why does everyone think Twitter is doomed?"
As an SRE and sysadmin with 10+ years of industry experience, I wanted to write up a few scenarios that are real threats to the integrity of the bird site over the coming weeks.
https://twitter.com/MosquitoCapital/status/1593541177965678592
Suggestive that a lot of the damage Truss did to the Tories reputation is sticking. Albeit we're only half a Truss into Sunak's Premiership.