Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
The most obvious and sensible answer.
If the British Emp[ire was wrong and evil, then one has to argue that New Zealand, Australia, the United States and Canada should never have come into existence.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
Richest for whom? The ultra-rich rulers?
Pre 1800 or so, there were very few parts of the world where living standards were good for anyone other than the elite.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
The timing is really strange. Not the same build up to it at all. Also, with the Euros having been delayed a year, it's also not that long since the large big international football tournament.
I assume that, once the tournament starts, the viewing figures will be good, because it's dark outside, but I think there's something about the summer weather that is part of the enjoyment of a world cup/Euros.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
Truss and Sunak just seem to be offering different kinds of batshittery.
As always, we asked who you thought would make a better Prime Minister. Here's what you told us:
35% (-4) - Sir Keir Starmer (Lab)
30% (-2) - Rishi Sunak (Con)
35% (+6) - Don’t know
Sunak now third in a two horse race
Ture, but its hardly a ringing endorsement of Starmer that "don't know" is the same.
Two years out from the 1997 election, Labour had a poll lead of 40%, John Major was on 13% for best PM, but Tony Blair was still only just better than Don't Know (44 to 42).
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
I like this! I have always been a fan of the view that only the Tories can (and will) take us back into the EU.
Oof. Reality stated at the budget. Two groups of voters for the Tories to shred: Sane voters who won't put up with incompetence Insane voters who think Truss didn't go far enough.
Watch the Nigel. A REFUK surge would be funny to watch.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
Good job Scotland are oot then - flags would be blown away. Had to go see mum in Macduff earlier. Had a run down the coast on the way back - 13 big supply vessels sheltering in the bay at Gardenstown. Never seen the likes of it.
I’m of the opinion that I don’t care about the immigration level, but you need to take the appropriate actions to deal with the issues it creates. Everything creates issues - this isn’t about negatives or positives.
If you have 200k more people in the country, you need to build 200k more bedrooms (rough approximation). They need somewhere to sleep.
You also need to consider the effects on pay and conditions for existing workers.
Sticking fingers in ears and shouting rude words doesn’t deal with the requirements for sensible, joined up policy. Only a sensible, joined up policy will do that.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
The Roman Empire largely improved the living standards of the places it conquered. The British Empire actually kept places in poverty. Bengal was the richest country in the world when Clive took it.
The Roman Empire mainly improved the living standards of Italians, and later on, some of the local upper classes. The Provincials were there to be fleeced. There does seem to have been some gradual economic growth across the Empire, up to about 250, then a marked drop to 300, when the Empire stabilised. After 400 in the West, living standards dropped markedly, as things fell apart.
Generally speaking there was more economic growth in the British Empire than its Roman counterpart.
Fun fact - Italy is still living off the profits of the Roman Empire. Vatican, the nice ruins etc.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
What is the Tories' pitch to the electorate? “We got Brexit done" for the ever diminishing number of people for whom that's a positive. For the rest of us?...
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
I like this! I have always been a fan of the view that only the Tories can (and will) take us back into the EU.
Honouring Maggie's legacy and joining her finest creation, the single market.
It would be a real Nixon goes to China moment.
If we did rejoin the hardcore leavers would be like the Japanese on Okinawa, throwing themselves into the English Channel rather than surrender.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
Truss and Sunak just seem to be offering different kinds of batshittery.
Sunak seems to have been tempered by Hunt, he is not as batshit in practice as he promised to be on the leadership campaign trail.
Neverthless, my long-standing view is that the British economy needs proper capital investment (private and public) and a concerted attack on rentierism (both landlordism and market monopolies) and he’s doing very little on these fronts.
I am glad he’s not cancelled HS2, that’s about it.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Yes, I can see something like that happening
I've always thought - and said so explicitly on here - that Rejoin would become a live issue if the polls showed at least a 60/40 split consistently in favour of doing that. Well, that time has possibly come. No politician can ignore these polls
I may not like it, but the British people have decided Brexit was a mistake, or at least they have decided - wrongly, but there it is - that Brexit is seriously to blame for our predicament
As I've also said before, I expect the first move to come from Starmer. He will have us back in the SM/CU as soon as he can
I've suffered from erectile dysfunction for years. I'm too embarrassed to tell my partner so I buy viagra and take it on nights I think I'm going to get lucky. Sometimes I judge it wrong so all I'm left with, is a headache, high temperature and unused erection.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Should add... Blackpool Strictly?!! You jammy get.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Should add... Blackpool Strictly?!! You jammy get.
I'm really going for the trip to Blackpool.
I love Strictly, I still haven't recovered from Hamza Yasin's Salsa earlier on this season.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
Good job Scotland are oot then - flags would be blown away. Had to go see mum in Macduff earlier. Had a run down the coast on the way back - 13 big supply vessels sheltering in the bay at Gardenstown. Never seen the likes of it.
On which subject, why, given how bleak and blustery it is, are we only generating 23% of electricty through wind (on gridwatch)?
I've suffered from erectile dysfunction for years. I'm too embarrassed to tell my partner so I buy viagra and take it on nights I think I'm going to get lucky. Sometimes I judge it wrong so all I'm left with, is a headache, high temperature and unused erection.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Apparently, NHS productivity has been declining in recent years so patients are not better off despite record NHS funding. This article may indicate what may happen in the future.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Why wait until opposition? It should be a 2024/5 manifesto pledge.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
Good job Scotland are oot then - flags would be blown away. Had to go see mum in Macduff earlier. Had a run down the coast on the way back - 13 big supply vessels sheltering in the bay at Gardenstown. Never seen the likes of it.
On which subject, why, given how bleak and blustery it is, are we only generating 23% of electricty through wind (on gridwatch)?
Because when its mentally windy you have to brake the turbines or they immolate.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
I've suffered from erectile dysfunction for years. I'm too embarrassed to tell my partner so I buy viagra and take it on nights I think I'm going to get lucky. Sometimes I judge it wrong so all I'm left with, is a headache, high temperature and unused erection.
Tories questioning election validity and placing hurdles to voting are going down a Trumpian path. Not good.
Im always amazed why people are so anti voter id. You need id to collect a parcel from the post office, or to go in most pubs on a Saturday night in a town centre, why not for voting.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
They do seem to have given up completely on politics. Telling people that they have to make sacrifices in return for ...nothing at all, seems strange.
Tories questioning election validity and placing hurdles to voting are going down a Trumpian path. Not good.
Im always amazed why people are so anti voter id. You need id to collect a parcel from the post office, or to go in most pubs on a Saturday night in a town centre, why not for voting.
They seem to think its a dastardly plot against the young who might vote Labour. I assume the young never need to pick up parcels.
It is a dastardly plot, and anyway, in my admittedly limited experience, you do not need *photo* ID to collect parcels from the Post Office.
Re ID cards generally, it is possible there might be less fuss now that so many people have name badges at work. Even students at (some) local schools wear lanyards on the bus. I'd imagine their name badges contain NFC chips to open doors at work.
Sandra down the callers desk knows who I am, so ID isn’t required.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
Are you suggesting the ghost of Sir James Savile KBE and the current Conservative Party are a decent fit?
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
They do seem to have given up completely on politics. Telling people that they have to make sacrifices in return for ...nothing at all, seems strange.
The pitch is implicitly that the sacrifice is in return for Brexit.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
Are you suggesting the ghost of Sir James Savile KBE and the current Conservative Party are a decent fit?
Interesting.
I am saying it would be in keeping with their current trajectory, if they kicked out their new leader and got a dead child molester as the next leader, while somehow hoping that would aid their polling
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Should add... Blackpool Strictly?!! You jammy get.
I'm really going for the trip to Blackpool.
I love Strictly, I still haven't recovered from Hamza Yasin's Salsa earlier on this season.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
Please stop. The curse of your personal prediction will see them in power until we are all six feet below.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
Are you suggesting the ghost of Sir James Savile KBE and the current Conservative Party are a decent fit?
Interesting.
They got on well back in the day when they were both still alive.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
Good job Scotland are oot then - flags would be blown away. Had to go see mum in Macduff earlier. Had a run down the coast on the way back - 13 big supply vessels sheltering in the bay at Gardenstown. Never seen the likes of it.
On which subject, why, given how bleak and blustery it is, are we only generating 23% of electricty through wind (on gridwatch)?
Because when its mentally windy you have to brake the turbines or they immolate.
They need a Goldilock's Zone to operate in. Some wind or they are useless. Too much wind and they are useless.
With solar, half the time they are useless because there is no sun. Significantly more time spent useless in winter, when solar needs to be operating to warm homes.
That is not a problem for tidal power. It needs no Goldilock's Zone.
Despite all the screaming and whining these tax increases are not really that dramatic.
The Daily Mail is proclaiming that a Single Person earning £50,000 per year will pay an extra £3,610 over the next 5 years - ie £722 per year.
And that a Family of Four earning £130,000 per year will pay an extra £14,480 over the next 5 years - ie £2,896 per year.
Whilst obviously not welcome, these are not changes that have a significant impact on people's lives.
Yet Labour is going to want to increase spending on a very significant scale. About 10% on public sector pay across the board on top of what this Govt awards to "make up" for real terms cuts over the last few years. A far more generous benefits system - literally on Day 1 the two child limit goes, the bedroom tax goes, sanctions go. A bung to all the WASPI women. £28bn on green energy. The list goes on and on.
And they aren't going to be able to borrow it - and won't even dare try having seen what happened to Truss.
So the result is going to have to be serious tax rises - not the Mickey Mouse stuff we've seen this week but tax rises that actually really impact people's lives.
The level of hyperbole in the media and on here from the left is generally in inverse proportion to the reality of the cuts/tax rises, etc etc. "Turn the heateing theromostat down 2 degrees and you are literally condemning pensioners/nurses/the poor to slow and lingering deaths you heartless baby eating scum" is about the long and short of it.
It's not the tax rises that are hurting the Tories, it is the terrifying and depressing predictions of long recession, plunging living standards, cuts in services, more unemployment, and no end to this gloom for half a decade or more
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Yes, it's not really much of a pitch.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What the Tories need is a new leadership election. Sunak and Hunt have clearly failed and the Tories are heading for a wipeout. Only a new leader can save them. But they need to think outside the box, this time
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
Are you suggesting the ghost of Sir James Savile KBE and the current Conservative Party are a decent fit?
Interesting.
I am saying it would be in keeping with their current trajectory, if they kicked out their new leader and got a dead child molester as the next leader, while somehow hoping that would aid their polling
Perhaps they could make Prince Andrew their leader.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Should add... Blackpool Strictly?!! You jammy get.
I'm really going for the trip to Blackpool.
I love Strictly, I still haven't recovered from Hamza Yasin's Salsa earlier on this season.
My neighbour Flavia is in panto in Worthing this year.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
If I wasn't busy this weekend (off to Blackpool to watch Strictly) I would be doing a thread asking
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
Should add... Blackpool Strictly?!! You jammy get.
I'm really going for the trip to Blackpool.
I love Strictly, I still haven't recovered from Hamza Yasin's Salsa earlier on this season.
My neighbour Flavia is in panto in Worthing this year.
Sweepstake 1: Costa Rica, Croatia Sweepstake 2: Cameroon, Ecuador
Turning to my trusty Racing Post guide, page 62, how to back all 32 teams at the World Cup
Costa Rica: zero total group points Croatia: last-16 elimination Cameroon: Bryan Mbeumo top team goalscorer Ecuador: no goalscorer in match against Senegal
This thread seems quite comprehensive (and scary, if say you own Twitter...)
I've seen a lot of people asking "why does everyone think Twitter is doomed?"
As an SRE and sysadmin with 10+ years of industry experience, I wanted to write up a few scenarios that are real threats to the integrity of the bird site over the coming weeks.
An excellent thread. Well worth reading by the people who think Musk is some sort of genius for losing so many staff so quickly. There are a hell of a lot of plates that need to be kept spinning.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
Yep. Would recommend Jan Morris's 3 books on the empire which although a bit old now are a nicely balanced account of how we ended up with one, the good, bad and ugly, without slipping into polemic.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
Yep. Would recommend Jan Morris's 3 books on the empire which although a bit old now are a nicely balanced account of how we ended up with one, the good, bad and ugly, without slipping into polemic.
Yes, what I love about those (well, I’ve only read the first) is that she captured the noble and the wicked, and the sheer adventure of it.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
Yep. Would recommend Jan Morris's 3 books on the empire which although a bit old now are a nicely balanced account of how we ended up with one, the good, bad and ugly, without slipping into polemic.
Yes, what I love about those (well, I’ve only read the first) is that she captured the noble and the wicked, and the sheer adventure of it.
I'd recommend too, anything written on the subject by George Macdonald Fraser.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
True. There is some World Cup signage from (iirc) Coca-Cola at the supermarket but that is about it. The World Cup is at the wrong time of year. The problem is not winter but that it is slap bang in the middle of the domestic season. There has been no build-up to it. One minute Arsenal are still at the top; the next minute, well, the next minute all the sports coverage has been of world cups in rugby, rugby league, women's rugby and cricket. Even tonight, on BBC2, is not football but the Wheelchair Rugby League World Cup Final.
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
True. There is some World Cup signage from (iirc) Coca-Cola at the supermarket but that is about it. The World Cup is at the wrong time of year. The problem is not winter but that it is slap bang in the middle of the domestic season. There has been no build-up to it. One minute Arsenal are still at the top; the next minute, well, the next minute all the sports coverage has been of world cups in rugby, rugby league, women's rugby and cricket. Even tonight, on BBC2, is not football but the Wheelchair Rugby League World Cup Final.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
Yep. Would recommend Jan Morris's 3 books on the empire which although a bit old now are a nicely balanced account of how we ended up with one, the good, bad and ugly, without slipping into polemic.
Yes, what I love about those (well, I’ve only read the first) is that she captured the noble and the wicked, and the sheer adventure of it.
I think much turns on how much interest and empathy one has for people who lived in the past, and who did things that - in a prosperous liberal democracy - would be considered wrong.
One can view them all as depraved and wicked, but rather like Professor Lal's denunciation of the moghuls, I see tht as anachronistic.
As always, we asked who you thought would make a better Prime Minister. Here's what you told us:
35% (-4) - Sir Keir Starmer (Lab)
30% (-2) - Rishi Sunak (Con)
35% (+6) - Don’t know
Sunak now third in a two horse race
Ture, but its hardly a ringing endorsement of Starmer that "don't know" is the same.
The UK is getting ungovernable.
The electorate is Andy Pipkin from Little Britain.
"I want that one."
"Are you sure?"
"Yeah.....I don't like it."
The problem is the politicians. Most normals don't know economics. Education. Industry. So you need to elect a government and trust that they know what they are doing. And we simply don't have one of those. What made it worse is that the main opposition party also went bonkers.
So people think they are the experts. With the Brexit referendum we were told that we could be the experts, And have now had 6 years of political cowardice, insisting that people "knew what they were voting for" despite it being self-evident they didn't.
We need boring, serious politicians. I honestly think Sunak and Hunt are about as serious as the Tories get. Won't save the party though - especially with a stack of mouth-foamers banging away in the background thinking that Truss was right.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
I'm not sure they are
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
Defect. Starmer, ever the ruthless centrist realpolitiker, will find them a home, just as Christian Wakefield has found. But best to hurry up, as it gets trickier if an opponent has already been selected.
IanB said: "In the US, any age below obviously senior [you need an ID to go into a pub]"
Laws vary widely in the US. Often minors can go into places where alcohol is served, but are checked for ID when they order.
And enforcement varies. Somewhat to my surprise, here in a Seattle suburb, about a month ago stores started checking IDs for wine and beer purchases -- for everyone. Even men with white hair, like me.
(Favorite example of just how widely laws can vary in the US: When I lived in Illinois decades ago, the state had a local prohibition option. Any legal place, down to a precinct, could vote itself dry (or wet, I suppose).
And they sometimes did. On the south side of Chicago, some black activists thought that a group of taverns was damaging their neighborhood, so they voted that precinct dry, putting the taverns out of business. A fancy apartment building on the north side was a single precinct. The tenants were quarreling with the landlord, who owned a restaurant in the building which got much of its profits from selling alcoholic drinks. So the tenants voted the building dry.)
Back to the World Cup: I've just noticed what I've not noticed: England flags. Normally, a few days out, England flags flying from cars would be all over the place. Maybe they've got a bit passe. But I think there's an almost palpable lack of excitement. Pubs aren't decked out in flags of all nations. No-one is salivating at the bit for the feast to come. I remember back in 2010, to the backdrop of so many vuvuzelas, a village near St. Helens organising a parade just in celebration of it being the World Cup. Maybe it's the background irritation at so stupid a decision as holding it in Qatar. Maybe it's it being November and it just not feeling World Cuppy. My personal interest in football has waned over the past 20 years. But normally I notice other people's excitment. Not this time.
Definitely the time of year. Too much other stuff going on, both in sport (my club is still playing) and elsewhere (Christmas preparations, for a start). I haven't even bothered to get a wallchart (real or virtual).
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
Apparently, NHS productivity has been declining in recent years so patients are not better off despite record NHS funding. This article may indicate what may happen in the future.
It is true, however, that remarkably little has been done to improve productivity in the public sector.
Freezing pay and saying the beatings will continue until morale improves are not productivity improving.
I could (I think), for example reduce the staff required for the DVLA. This would require several billion pounds in investment over a decade. At the end of that time it would employ less people, but on higher wages. The various functions would be faster and more accurate.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
I really don't agree that the fundamental essence of empire was malign.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
I agree with Jan Morris. There was good, bad, and ugly. Chattel slave trading was wicked by any measure. So, were the actions of Robert Clive and his associates. Ditto the massacre of Tasmanian aborigines.
But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total, today) hundreds of millions of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.
An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
I really don't agree that the fundamental essence of empire was malign.
How can a racist exploitative endeavour on such a massive scale not be in essence malign?
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
I really don't agree that the fundamental essence of empire was malign.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
I agree with Jan Morris. There was good, bad, and ugly. Chattel slave trading was wicked by any measure. So, were the actions of Robert Clive and his associates. Ditto the massacre of Tasmanian aborigines.
But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total) hundreds of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.
An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
Ok. But I'm talking about its essence. What it was all about at its core. Being the oppression and exploitation by 'us' of other people and places. It was huge and longlasting, with consequences (good bad and neither) to fill many books, and allowing many viable takes, but this doesn't mean it didn't have a core essence you can detect and have a view on.
The difference between the beginning and the end of empires is always a tricky one. Pre-the declaration of Indian rights and the Raj, and despite the abolition of slavery earlier than the U.S, the pre-1870's and 1880s Empire, for non-whites, was still largely only a racket for commercial exploitation, dispossession and murder. On the other hand the early twentieth-century, and later, Empire was more complicated, still essentially a tool of domination, but affording increasing rights and liberalisms to its subjects.
The early and late Ottoman Empire was much the same - from massacring the inhabitants of Thessaloniki en masse for refusing to convert, to the last Sultan painting his watercolours in the South of France. Then it was the Young Turks who arrived as more brutal, coming from a republican-dictatorial tradition.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
I really don't agree that the fundamental essence of empire was malign.
How can a racist exploitative endeavour on such a massive scale not be in essence malign?
Well, I'd give the example of the United States. It was founded upon driving American Indians off their land, and importing thousands of slaves. Pretty malign? Yet the good, in terms of the hundreds of millions of people who've enjoyed prosperity and freedom, considerably outweighs the bad.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
I agree with Jan Morris. There was good, bad, and ugly. Chattel slave trading was wicked by any measure. So, were the actions of Robert Clive and his associates. Ditto the massacre of Tasmanian aborigines.
But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total) hundreds of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.
An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
Ok. But I'm talking about its essence. What it was all about at its core. Being the oppression and exploitation by 'us' of other people and places. It was huge and longlasting, with consequences (good bad and neither) to fill many books, and allowing many viable takes, but this doesn't mean it didn't have a core essence you can detect and have a view on.
Was the creation of England (or other European nations) fundamentally malign? After all, it involved a variety of North Western European tribes fighting their way into the country, and vying for dominance.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
The subjugation and exploitation of other people and places. The greed and white supremacy racism which lay at the heart of the enterprise and fuelled it. So surely 'malign in essence' is fair. None of which is to say uniquely so, or even especially so, compared to the imperialism of others, or that it didn't have some positive consequences.
Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.
The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.
But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.
I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.
This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
Yup. The money they were offering to move out there was spectacular - retirement in a decade kind of money.
One red flag, however, was when I was searching on Qatari real estate websites for a place to live. I put in my price bracket (massive, obvs) but in amongst the glittering penthouses were several uh... other properties in the same price bracket. Turns out for the same amount of money pcm, I could rent a bunkhouse fitting up to 40 "workers". Pictures were included. Slave galleys sprung to mind.
Sometimes I wonder why it's all so visible - then I realise - it's because they genuinely don't see anything wrong with this kind of socioeconomic model.
And that is why the world cup is going to be such a disaster. Most tinpot countries build potemkin villages because they *know* how to present themselves to the outside world. Qatar presents itself as it is, and is proud of what it is.
Chaos will ensue.
Yes, it's quite striking the way - even with the eyes of the world upon them - they aren't covering up behaviour which the rest of the world might disapprove of. My inference is that they are so disconnected from the outside world that they absolutely don't see why the rest of the world might look askance at this. See also the goons stopping the Danish TV crew from filming.
People bang on about woke.
But here is a real difference - in many countries, there isn't a narrative of "our evil ancestors did X". They are in the Ra Ra We Are The Bestest mode. They see nothing in their past or present to be ashamed of.
In addition, since they have nothing to be ashamed of, their culture and religion is, of course, The Best In The World. Meaning that everyone else is somewhere between a poor, benighted, uncultured rube and an actual Heretic.
Having been the best in the world at colonialism we are now the best in the world at admitting it was wrong? That's a nice thought but I'm not sure it's true. Not the 2nd bit anyway.
It's not about being best at admitting the past. Even acknowledging it is a start.
Haven't you actually listened to some locals when you've travelled?
It is quite interesting to hear people from cultures where They Have No Doubt. And they see The Doubt in the West as pathetic and evidence of our manifest decline. Rather than a mature response to the past.
I can't say I've noticed that particularly. Are we sure this isn't a view gleaned from the 'muscular right' commentariat masquerading as personal experience?
Try talking to people in Saudi Arabia, for example. Lots of “Our current leaders have made mistakes” - but absolutely no idea of being responsible for anything bad in the past. Colonialism was only done to them etc.
It’s not that they have changed - we have. Progressed that is. Many countries live in their public discourse at about the stage when Churchill wrote of the funeral of Queen Victoria - “…the old world in it’s glory, fair to see”
They see themselves as the unambiguously Good Guys.
That’s the thing about progress. It means leaving the old world behind. Progressing to a new one. A better one, we hope.
Well I'd have to go to Saudi Arabia to do that. Not on the agenda atm. First Amsterdam, then a Greek island, then we'll see about it. But I get your point. Countries should own their history not just glorify the good and bat way the bad. Also agree we are better at this than we used to be.
However I'm always struck by the amount of "grand perspective" when it comes to us talking about the British Empire. There is much comparing with other imperial episodes from ancient history, much musing on how the consequences for the colonised weren’t all negative, etc etc, and that's all fine and dandy, however the ticket price for this imo should be the recognition of its malign fundamentals - ie an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy. I think this plain fact should be acknowledged sometimes without straining to “contextualise”.
It reminds me a little of Jeremy Corbyn and his jewish problem. Some straight talking was needed but he simply couldn’t deliver it.
“Do you condemn antisemitism, Mr Corbyn?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Is that a yes?” “I condemn all forms of racism.” “Including antisemitism?” “Antisemitism is racism and I condemn all forms of racism. For example the Palestinians have been ...”
And he's up and off and running.
The impression (fair or not) is he just doesn’t get it with antisemitism. It’s the same with the British Empire imo if you can’t say it was wicked and wrong without in the same breath crowbarring in some big picture rationalization.
Challenge for people there.
Because calling the British Empire "wicked and wrong" is a stupid category error, made by middlebrow virtue signalling idiots like you
Was the Roman Empire "wicked and wrong"? No, It is daft to call it that
What about the evil Hittite empire? Why aren't the Hittites apologising? And the Mughals? What about the Phoenicians and the Macedonians? The Incan empire was a disgrace. It is time for the Incans to pay reparations
The British Empire was a mighty tide in the affairs of men, which has now retreated. Like any enormous tide, it did things good and bad. Drowned some, lifted others, changed the lands it left behind. It has no morality positive or negative
Step 1 - An acknowledgement it was wicked and wrong. Which it obviously was.
Step 2 - An interesting and learned (on a good day) discussion about it.
My point is how many people cannot do Step 1. It's either straight to Step 2 or it's toys out of pram.
Like you here. You've gone straight to Step 2 and if I push you to do Step 1 it'll be toys out of pram. I know it will. So I won't.
Go on then, answer my question. Was the Roman Empire wicked and wrong?
See, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're doing a Corbyn. Let's stay on OUR colonialism. It was ours after all and was rather more recent than the Romans. Let's stay on that just for a second before we go roaming off.
Back to Step 1. Ok, you don't like "wicked and wrong" because it doesn't sound highbrow enough. Fine. I'm happy to use my alternative, slightly more wonky wording.
So can we both sign up to saying the British Empire was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with correspondingly toxic legacy?
I already have so I've done Step 1. If you do the same you'll have done it too and then bingo we're into the big nuanced discussion (which can include the Romans if you like) and the world's our oyster.
You can't answer my question because you know it makes your argument look ridiculous. Because your argument IS ridiculous. You cannot judge grand historical movements using the precise morality obtaining in the head of @kinabalu off of PB.com on November 18, 2022. A morality which will no doubt change with the seasons of the Wokeness, as that is what people like you do
Kuntibula: Can we 2 British chaps at least agree on the basics that the British Empire, OUR Empire, quite recent in history, was an exploitative racist endeavour on a massive scale with a correspondingly toxic legacy?
Leon: What about the Romans?
Try and answer my question about the Romans. Because it will reveal the absurdity of your argument
I'm actually trying to help you, here. Trying to broaden your mind beyond this sterile leftist Wokethink. Try new thoughts! Fresh concepts!
I know you're a retired accountant, but still
CHARTERED accountant.
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
OK, I believe it is comically ridiculous to apply a myopic black-and-white contemporary THAT IS GOOD BUT THIS IS BAD morality to enormous historical events which took place over centuries
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
It's about understanding the fundamental nature of what we're discussing. A framing. Risk of much waffle otherwise.
Stet
In general, I'd say there are a lot more grey hats than black hats in history. If we "enjoyed" the standard of living, and generally more violent circumstances, of people who lived hundreds of years ago, we would behave in exactly the same way as they did. It would be extremely arrogant to think otherwise.
Yep. Long and complex, history is. But this undeniable fact doesn't mean taking a neutral moral view on everything apart from binary extremities like the Nazis and the Virgin Mary. And my initial observation - illustrated perfectly by the response - was merely that I'm struck by how many people either can't acknowledge the malign fundamentals of our colonialism, or can't do so without plunging into "context" in the same post.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
I agree with Jan Morris. There was good, bad, and ugly. Chattel slave trading was wicked by any measure. So, were the actions of Robert Clive and his associates. Ditto the massacre of Tasmanian aborigines.
But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total) hundreds of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.
An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
Ok. But I'm talking about its essence. What it was all about at its core. Being the oppression and exploitation by 'us' of other people and places. It was huge and longlasting, with consequences (good bad and neither) to fill many books, and allowing many viable takes, but this doesn't mean it didn't have a core essence you can detect and have a view on.
Was the creation of England (or other European nations) fundamentally malign? After all, it involved a variety of North Western European tribes fighting their way into the country, and vying for dominance.
I think few of us would take that view.
Possibly. But why strain back into ancient times to find (in any case not very) equivalents rather than just looking at the essence of the quite recent, massive in scale, British Empire? Why not acknowledge its fundamental nature (malign) as a useful framing for discussing its complexities? This brings clarity. It's not a dumbing down.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
The subjugation and exploitation of other people and places. The greed and white supremacy racism which lay at the heart of the enterprise and fuelled it. So surely 'malign in essence' is fair. None of which is to say uniquely so, or even especially so, compared to the imperialism of others, or that it didn't have some positive consequences.
Most 19th century abolitionists were racists, in our terms. A lot of them thought it would be a good thing if freed blacks were sent to Liberia and Sierra Leone. Scarcely any of them thought of blacks and whites enjoying equal rights. But, I don't think that taints their abolitionism.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
I really don't agree that the fundamental essence of empire was malign.
How can a racist exploitative endeavour on such a massive scale not be in essence malign?
Well, I'd give the example of the United States. It was founded upon driving American Indians off their land, and importing thousands of slaves. Pretty malign? Yet the good, in terms of the hundreds of millions of people who've enjoyed prosperity and freedom, considerably outweighs the bad.
You'd need an alternative history but again I don't think this is quite my point. That good can come from bad isn't something I'm disputing.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
The subjugation and exploitation of other people and places. The greed and white supremacy racism which lay at the heart of the enterprise and fuelled it. So surely 'malign in essence' is fair. None of which is to say uniquely so, or even especially so, compared to the imperialism of others, or that it didn't have some positive consequences.
Most 19th century abolitionists were racists, in our terms. A lot of them thought it would be a good thing if freed blacks were sent to Liberia and Sierra Leone. Scarcely any of them thought of blacks and whites enjoying equal rights. But, I don't think that taints their abolitionism.
Racism was very prevalent, yes, and you can't necessarily apply modern standards to the behaviour of individuals in the past. However if we back then thought, "This imperialism of ours is natural and fine because we're a superior race to those we've colonized", what we can now say - and imo should say - is No It Wasn't.
If you think New Zealand is a good thing, which I do, then it’s hard to denounce the British Empire as a unmitigated evil.
I prefer to think that there good and bad bits, just like any country or indeed human enterprise.
I'm not saying Empire was an unmitigated evil. Hardly anything is and Empire certainly wasn't. What I'm saying is its fundamental essence was malign. That said, some positive consequences ensued (like NZ and you if you like!). However the key there is "that said". People seem unable to say it. Head in sand, this is, imo. Avoidance of an uncomfortable truth.
How and why was it’s fundamental essence malign?
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
The subjugation and exploitation of other people and places. The greed and white supremacy racism which lay at the heart of the enterprise and fuelled it. So surely 'malign in essence' is fair. None of which is to say uniquely so, or even especially so, compared to the imperialism of others, or that it didn't have some positive consequences.
I think the fundamental essence of the British Empire was a business concern.
Everything else - from the mission civilisatrice, to the “white supremacy”, accreted around that.
I predicted the catastro-budget could send the Tories back into the low 20s, and here it is
There is no point in the Tories any more. They are serving up Labour policies and economics. They raise taxes and cut services. They cannot get a grip on immigration, they can't stop people simply sailing across the Channel. They've done nothing about Wokeness. What does being a Tory even mean, any more?
This is the end of them for a long long time, perhaps forever
The current government seems quite happy to let down everyone who voted for it.
I genuinely think this could be the end of the Conservative Party. Imagine being a Tory MP looking at this poll
It implies just 33 of you will survive the next election. It is beyond disastrous. And, worse, there is nothing anyone can do to improve things. This is in the mail now. It will be delivered
I'm quite unconvinced of the need to be cutting spending and raising taxes on the proposed scale. Neither our budget deficit or debt to GDP ratio are anything unusual in the present time.
That’s heresy though. For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
Truss and Sunak just seem to be offering different kinds of batshittery.
At least one of them had an optimistic and positive outlook, looking to a brighter future rather than managing the decline. Sadly, the Tory MPs disagreed with me.
Comments
Look, this is silly. I'm fine to say ye olde ancient empires of others (eg of Rome) were wicked and wrong. But I was in first with my Step 1 on the British Empire - which in any case should be easier to cope with since it's OURS and far more recent.
So, you do that, on the British, nice and clear, then I'll type out mine on the Roman.
Then we're off to the races on all this stuff.
For some reason, the (right) establishment are now pretty much lined up to disagree with you.
If the British Emp[ire was wrong and evil, then one has to argue that New Zealand, Australia, the United States and Canada should never have come into existence.
Which would have been bad news for humanity.
It is as ridiculous to say the British Empire was wicked and wrong as it is ridiculous to say the Ottoman or Roman or Macedonian empires were wicked and wrong. It's like saying the Industrial Revolution was "cruel". It's like saying the move to agriculture from hunter gathering was "an error". It's like saying the sky is "big" or the Moon is "far away". It is the mental act of a knave
I assume that, once the tournament starts, the viewing figures will be good, because it's dark outside, but I think there's something about the summer weather that is part of the enjoyment of a world cup/Euros.
With polls suggesting to 90% of MPs that they are certain to lose their seats and political careers in 2024, a rebellion in the Tory Party is a strong possibility. It won't do them any good, I don't think, but the alternative is a slow trudge into extinction, like soldiers on Day 1 of the Somme
Will Tories simply accept annihilation? Do they have any choice?
When in opposition is proposing to Rejoin the EU the only way the Tories can win a general election?
It is saying "we've been in power for twelve years and your life is about to get dramatically worse and much poorer, please vote for us again"
Who the F will buy that? I am surprised they are still as high as 21% TBH
Sane voters who won't put up with incompetence
Insane voters who think Truss didn't go far enough.
Watch the Nigel. A REFUK surge would be funny to watch.
If you have 200k more people in the country, you need to build 200k more bedrooms (rough approximation). They need somewhere to sleep.
You also need to consider the effects on pay and conditions for existing workers.
Sticking fingers in ears and shouting rude words doesn’t deal with the requirements for sensible, joined up policy. Only a sensible, joined up policy will do that. Fun fact - Italy is still living off the profits of the Roman Empire. Vatican, the nice ruins etc.
Should they pay reparations?
It would be a real Nixon goes to China moment.
If we did rejoin the hardcore leavers would be like the Japanese on Okinawa, throwing themselves into the English Channel rather than surrender.
Neverthless, my long-standing view is that the British economy needs proper capital investment (private and public) and a concerted attack on rentierism (both landlordism and market monopolies) and he’s doing very little on these fronts.
I am glad he’s not cancelled HS2, that’s about it.
I've always thought - and said so explicitly on here - that Rejoin would become a live issue if the polls showed at least a 60/40 split consistently in favour of doing that. Well, that time has possibly come. No politician can ignore these polls
I may not like it, but the British people have decided Brexit was a mistake, or at least they have decided - wrongly, but there it is - that Brexit is seriously to blame for our predicament
As I've also said before, I expect the first move to come from Starmer. He will have us back in the SM/CU as soon as he can
https://twitter.com/fesshole/status/1593626340330156033
If Twitter does goes I'm going to miss Fesshole.
I love Strictly, I still haven't recovered from Hamza Yasin's Salsa earlier on this season.
Things are going to be very tough for any net energy importer and net food importer, for the time being, but the government seems determined to make them worse.
What's wrong with a good wank?
https://indianexpress.com/article/technology/science/robots-may-replace-uks-public-sector-workers-as-early-as-2030-4511891/
The late Jimmy Savile MBE comes to mind. OK he's dead. And a disgraced pedo. But he might surprise on the upside
Interesting.
With solar, half the time they are useless because there is no sun. Significantly more time spent useless in winter, when solar needs to be operating to warm homes.
That is not a problem for tidal power. It needs no Goldilock's Zone.
She gets to do some dancing...
Indeed, you yourself gave the logical explanation: "A deliberate act of voter suppression".
We got tickets for Chile
I actually feel properly sorry for loyal Tory activists like @HYUFD
They have been poorly served by a bunch of parliamentary clowns
Costa Rica: zero total group points
Croatia: last-16 elimination
Cameroon: Bryan Mbeumo top team goalscorer
Ecuador: no goalscorer in match against Senegal
Remember to save your bus fare home!
The electorate is Andy Pipkin from Little Britain.
"I want that one."
"Are you sure?"
"Yeah.....I don't like it."
One can view them all as depraved and wicked, but rather like Professor Lal's denunciation of the moghuls, I see tht as anachronistic.
So people think they are the experts. With the Brexit referendum we were told that we could be the experts, And have now had 6 years of political cowardice, insisting that people "knew what they were voting for" despite it being self-evident they didn't.
We need boring, serious politicians. I honestly think Sunak and Hunt are about as serious as the Tories get. Won't save the party though - especially with a stack of mouth-foamers banging away in the background thinking that Truss was right.
Maybe you can though. Because you do surprise me sometimes.
Laws vary widely in the US. Often minors can go into places where alcohol is served, but are checked for ID when they order.
And enforcement varies. Somewhat to my surprise, here in a Seattle suburb, about a month ago stores started checking IDs for wine and beer purchases -- for everyone. Even men with white hair, like me.
(Favorite example of just how widely laws can vary in the US: When I lived in Illinois decades ago, the state had a local prohibition option. Any legal place, down to a precinct, could vote itself dry (or wet, I suppose).
And they sometimes did. On the south side of Chicago, some black activists thought that a group of taverns was damaging their neighborhood, so they voted that precinct dry, putting the taverns out of business. A fancy apartment building on the north side was a single precinct. The tenants were quarreling with the landlord, who owned a restaurant in the building which got much of its profits from selling alcoholic drinks. So the tenants voted the building dry.)
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1593573049357332480
It is true, however, that remarkably little has been done to improve productivity in the public sector.
Freezing pay and saying the beatings will continue until morale improves are not productivity improving.
I could (I think), for example reduce the staff required for the DVLA. This would require several billion pounds in investment over a decade. At the end of that time it would employ less people, but on higher wages. The various functions would be faster and more accurate.
But, do I think that the creation of new nations comprising (in total, today) hundreds of millions of people, living prosperous and free lives, was overall, a bad thing? No. Do I think that the actions of the Royal Navy, in the 19th century, in terms of suppressing piracy and slaving, were bad? No. Do I think a man like James Brooke materially improved the lives of Sarawak's people? Undoubtedly.
An unpleasant paradox of empire was that the more that colonies moved towards self-government, quite often minorities and indigenous peoples who had received at least some protection from colonial authorities, got a much worse time of it.
Are you referring to its anti-democratic nature, in which case is every society in history pre circa 1850 “fundamentally malign”?
The early and late Ottoman Empire was much the same - from massacring the inhabitants of Thessaloniki en masse for refusing to convert, to the last Sultan painting his watercolours in the South of France. Then it was the Young Turks who arrived as more brutal, coming from a republican-dictatorial tradition.
I think few of us would take that view.
Everything else - from the mission civilisatrice, to the “white supremacy”, accreted around that.