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The logic behind this is hard to justify explain – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited November 18 in General
The logic behind this is hard to justify explain – politicalbetting.com

Long-awaited details of the government’s voter ID scheme have now been released, including details of which IDs will be accepted at the polling station. The list contains plenty of options for older voters, but few for younger voters. https://t.co/r0YWFXbztw pic.twitter.com/Ck1gro9e0h

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,684
    First like Arsenal.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,411
    On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,304
    This seems like pretty revolting and desperate stuff from the Tories. I maintain my view that compulsory voter ID requires a compulsory national ID card. Otherwise it is obviously discriminatory. Presumably those who believe that voter impersonation is a material source of fraud (it isn't) will see a national ID card as a price worth paying.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,304
    tlg86 said:

    First like Arsenal.

    First like the Tories once they've stopped all the wrong people from voting.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,519
    edited November 18
    It's Coming Home for Christmas.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRBLAHjkTo

    "When they decided on Qatar
    Should have checked VAR"
  • ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    Fair enough. Though in the specific case of care workers, that means putting more money (let's be honest, a lot more money) into social care.

    Which the voting public have been notably reluctant to do.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974
    On Topic - I remember when we were having a discussion about voting irregularities on PB. Many people took the line that this didn't happen

    Literally while the discussion was happening, the news of the case (in Birmingham IIRC) where several councillor were arrested while supervising a literal vote forging factory came in.

    The line then changed to "of course local elections are corrupt, we were talking about *national* elections"

    Given the experience of a friend who tried to report his vote stolen in Tower Hamlets (for a national election, among others), I wonder how much suppression of reporting of voting irregularities is going on.

    Incidentally, the changes bring the rest of the UK into line with NI.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,920
    Is there actually any academic studies on this issue?

    My personal take would be that there would be a huge overlap between the younger strata of society who do not have a form of acceptable ID - and those who would not vote anyway.

    Anecdotally, the areas where vote farming and impersonation seem to be a problem are inner city areas where it comes into play in voting for local councillors. It is hard to imagine a situation where it would change the outcome of a Westminster seat. They have Labour majorities in the tens of thousands.

    Would love to hear if those assumptions are wrong.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,125
    edited November 18

    This seems like pretty revolting and desperate stuff from the Tories. I maintain my view that compulsory voter ID requires a compulsory national ID card. Otherwise it is obviously discriminatory. Presumably those who believe that voter impersonation is a material source of fraud (it isn't) will see a national ID card as a price worth paying.

    It seems inarguable that the real intent of voter ID is to disenfranchise younger voters (less stable housing, less likely to own valid ID) at the expense of older ones.

    The claim that in person vote fraud is a real problem doesn’t stand up - if it was a real problem then spot checks ought to catch enough examples to demonstrate that it’s serious enough to need fixing. As far as I know nobody is even bothering to do the spot checks, so we simply have a void where we need actual information. A very useful void if you need to use the possibility of fraud as a justification for your undemocratic changes to the system.

    The actual, known vote fraud (and also the possibility of coercion of people’s votes) has come predominantly from postal votes. But the government is not doing anything about reforming that system, which strongly suggests that vote fraud is not the real motivation for their voter ID changes.

    (I do agree with Malmesbury that there could be a real problem with voter impersonation going unreported. If the police don’t take existing cases seriously then we would never find out if there was organised voter impersonation occurring.)
  • On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    However, when all the cack always ends up on the same hand, one has to wonder.

    (Bottom line: this plan will probably make election results a less accurate reflection of the will of the people than the status quo. Even if it's not by much, that seems like a bad thing.)
  • ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,684
    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    Fair enough. Though in the specific case of care workers, that means putting more money (let's be honest, a lot more money) into social care.

    Which the voting public have been notably reluctant to do.
    It's not just care workers. A friend commented that his daughter at university now needs much less support - her bar job in the Union makes he "hundreds a week". Mind you, he then complained about the wage rises for people working for him. Yes, he hadn't actually joined the dots. Not in a bad way, but just not made the connection.

    No-one gives pay rises just because. The workers have to er... insist?

    Which is the whole point of industrial relations - two parties pulling in various directions. The result is something of a compromise.

    The issue comes when employers which includes the NHS - one of the biggest employers of the very low paid - have an unlimited supply of low skilled labour to draw on. Then the minimum wage become the norm, not the floor.

    This is awesome for me (I work in a skilled profession where there is a world wide shortage), so Deliveroo can get me my takeaway for a couple of quid, when I am too lazy to go out in the rain. This is not so awesome for the Deliveroo riders, or the low end staff in the restaurant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    AlistairM said:

    It's Coming Home for Christmas.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRBLAHjkTo

    "When they decided on Qatar
    Should have checked VAR"

    Nice line - but if you’re going to make your football song political, don’t have the next line “It’s too hot, and too far” and ignore the real reasons people don’t like Qatar.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    It all feels like part of Omnigeddon

    The Collapse of Everything. A bizarro-world where what can fall apart WILL fall apart - from the World Cup to Twitter to Britain
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,527
    Apparently the Tory working on this policy was Rt Hon. Gerry Mander MP. The is all they have left. Trumpian.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,761

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    A further point on this subject is that we appear to have huge numbers out of work at the same time as a huge labour shortage. The solution rather suggests itself, and it isn't mass low skilled immigration.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,657
    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,519
    BBC Breakfast booked both Brian Coxes into the same hotel, causing utter confusion. Absolutely amazing.
    https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1593529992150933510
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,411

    On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    However, when all the cack always ends up on the same hand, one has to wonder.

    (Bottom line: this plan will probably make election results a less accurate reflection of the will of the people than the status quo. Even if it's not by much, that seems like a bad thing.)
    Is there a problem in the UK with voter fraud? Probably happens at quite a low level. Should people be required to prove they are eligible to vote? I believe the answer is yes. How you achieve it fairly is a good question, but I find it weird that routinely accept proving ID for many things in life, but somehow think we should have to for voting.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,284
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
  • ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The majority of staff British? Sure. But that is not enough staff. There is a real and significant staffing crisis and you can't just dismiss it. As for wages I would be delighted to see wages increase - but again the whole sector is in crisis because local authorities and the state won't pay enough money for the service provided...
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,519
    Seems that a recently air-launched cruise missile used by Russia originally had a nuclear warhead. They removed the nuke to make it a conventional missile. Not the actions of a country with lots of cruise missiles left!

    One X-55 missile that was shot down over Kyiv yesterday had a block that acted as a nuclear warhead imitator, Defense Express reports. For this strike, Russia took a X-55 from their "nuclear arsenal", "unscrewed" a nuclear warhead and instead put an empty "blank" in its place.
    https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1593499401716224000
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
    I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.

    But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,219
    fox327 said:

    The English refusing to accept that Brexit is responsible for the economic crisis is like Americans refusing to accept guns are responsible for gun crime.

    I watched part of Question Time last night, unusually. There were several questions from the audience about the economic and trading effects of Brexit. The Conservative and Labour politicians did not want to talk about this, and had no answers. I think now that both the main political parties are responsible for Brexit, which is contributing substantially to our economic decline.

    I am now considering becoming a supporter of The Rejoin EU Party. There seems to be little point in voting for either the Conservative or Labour parties at the moment with their current policies because they are ignoring the elephant in the room.
    If you lived in Scotland, would you join the Scottish National Party?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,902
    edited November 18

    On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    I am absolutely certain the intention is to make it more difficult for younger people to vote than older people. Even if the project started as an attempt to address a real perceived problem (already doubtful), now it is known to create big biases it would be dropped as unworkable, unless the intention is precisely to take advantage of those biases.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,268
    edited November 18

    This seems like pretty revolting and desperate stuff from the Tories. I maintain my view that compulsory voter ID requires a compulsory national ID card. Otherwise it is obviously discriminatory. Presumably those who believe that voter impersonation is a material source of fraud (it isn't) will see a national ID card as a price worth paying.

    Oh, go and hyperventilate into a paper bag.

    Where was your outrage when we had election after election that was on very outdated boundaries? Where the new boundaries would have actively changed the result from a Theresa May minority to a majority Government, for example.

    Revolting and desperate stuff only goes one way, it seems.
    You might have missed it but there were lots of complaints about boundaries. All of this comes from CCHQ deducing during the New Labour years that the electoral system was tilted against it, so it was only fair to place a counterbalancing blue thumb on the scales. Think back to old PB and there will have been many attempts to explain differential turnout and vote efficiency for why the votes-per-MP measure looked skewed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974
    edited November 18
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    Or perhaps, even more disgustingly, have more money than even benefits could provide.

    Bring back Henry VIII’s maximum wage laws. The villeins are revolting.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    This comment from Jeremy Hunt is what is really worrying Brexiteers this morning 👇👇
    https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1593551031492911107
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1593520964934897666
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,177
    Morning all!
    Somewhat weirdly, I have just had a proxy vote in a local council election. I say somewhat weirdly, because all we had to do was my wife contact the local council and say I was in hospital. I didn’t I didn’t have to say or sign anything!
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,519
    Nice, happy story.

    A 99-year-old veteran who fed a French girl during the Second World War has been reunited with her 78 years on.
    https://news.sky.com/story/second-world-war-veteran-reunited-with-girl-he-helped-in-france-12750086
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,705
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






    OBR estimate looks optimistic to me.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    It all feels like part of Omnigeddon

    The Collapse of Everything. A bizarro-world where what can fall apart WILL fall apart - from the World Cup to Twitter to Britain
    If you want some more cheerful news, my oldest daughter has an inset day from school. I have a houseful, downstairs, of LOUD, happy 12 year olds. The sound of shouting and laughter and song reverberates around the house. They have just segued from a surprisingly loud conversation about trousers into singing Cliff Richard's 'Merry Christmas Everyone'.
    Soon, they will go to the Trafford Centre and take their pre-teen exuberance elsewhere.
    It's not a big thing. But, you know, not everything is doom and gloom.
    And the pleasant autumn sunshine is streaming through my windows. As ever, the dissonance is piquant

    Unfortunately I think the pessimistic take is the right one, at the moment. And yet on the other hand the Iranian regime might be on the verge of collapse so Yay?

    “Astonishing scenes from #Iran. Protesters have burned down the house of Ruhollah Khomeini, the Islamic Republic’s founder.

    The house has been a museum for the past 30 years. This is an attack in the essence of the republic itself.”

    https://twitter.com/dpatrikarakos/status/1593529893907832832?s=46&t=0MObbqWY4TXPWCt0k8RH3g
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Can't unsee this now

    Elon Trussk
  • Cookie said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    A further point on this subject is that we appear to have huge numbers out of work at the same time as a huge labour shortage. The solution rather suggests itself, and it isn't mass low skilled immigration.
    Which was literally my point. We have a genuine staffing crisis in a stack of sectors. And people who both say "no migrants" and "I'm not doing that mate". So give them the direct choice - will you do it, or will you STFU about migrants "stealing our jobs"
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,657
    King Cole, *gasp!*

    Is that even a real crown you're wearing?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    edited November 18
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next


    He’s right, especially that GDP/Capita is the important statistic to measure, alongside the middle deciles by income stats - that’s the best measure of how the average person feels they’re doing.

    Adding a million unskilled immigrants to the population, who pay little tax, use schools, hospitals, roads and houses - but raise the headline GDP figure - make everyone feel poorer, especially those who are relatively poor already, except for the owners of capital.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,527
    Scott_xP said:

    Can't unsee this now

    Elon Trussk

    Trump
    Truss
    Musk
    Sunak
  • Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






    Even if you believe the Nike Swoosh theory of Brexitnomics (and I'm not convinced), and accept that there would never be a pleasant time to do the downwards bit ("rip of the plaster" and all that), starting to take the hit in 2019 was unfortunate.

    Not in ways that could have been forseen, but unfortunate all the same.
  • On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    However, when all the cack always ends up on the same hand, one has to wonder.

    (Bottom line: this plan will probably make election results a less accurate reflection of the will of the people than the status quo. Even if it's not by much, that seems like a bad thing.)
    Is there a problem in the UK with voter fraud? Probably happens at quite a low level. Should people be required to prove they are eligible to vote? I believe the answer is yes. How you achieve it fairly is a good question, but I find it weird that routinely accept proving ID for many things in life, but somehow think we should have to for voting.
    It is not quite that simple. What is complained of in the header is not ID proof per se, but that one group is told they simply need to flash a card they already have, while another group is told they have to jump through hoops to obtain something they do not already have.

    Are there any signs this will be made easy? The finale of the sitcom Derry Girls, set on the day of the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum, starts with one of the girls collecting her NI voting card. It seems reasonably straightforward. Watch it (or the first couple of minutes) on
    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/derry-girls/on-demand/68257-007
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,284
    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
    I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.

    But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
    I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.

    I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.

    This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
  • Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next


    He’s right, especially that GDP/Capita is the important statistic to measure, alongside the middle deciles by income stats - that’s the best measure of how the average person feels they’re doing.

    Adding a million unskilled immigrants to the population, who pay little tax, use schools, hospitals, roads and houses - but raise the headline GDP figure - make everyone feel poorer, especially those who are relatively poor already, except for the owners of capital.
    But who will wipe Rochdale's bum for minimum wage?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,902
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






    Combination of austerity and Brexit. The Conservative government were responsible for both, of course.

    (Disclosure: I did think austerity was necessary at time. Now think I was wrong)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093

    This seems like pretty revolting and desperate stuff from the Tories. I maintain my view that compulsory voter ID requires a compulsory national ID card. Otherwise it is obviously discriminatory. Presumably those who believe that voter impersonation is a material source of fraud (it isn't) will see a national ID card as a price worth paying.

    I suspect we'll find many tory supporters are able to reconcile being happy with this proposal whilst still having the vapours at the idea of an ID card. They are talented like that.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,093
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    It all feels like part of Omnigeddon

    The Collapse of Everything. A bizarro-world where what can fall apart WILL fall apart - from the World Cup to Twitter to Britain
    If you want some more cheerful news, my oldest daughter has an inset day from school. I have a houseful, downstairs, of LOUD, happy 12 year olds. The sound of shouting and laughter and song reverberates around the house. They have just segued from a surprisingly loud conversation about trousers into singing Cliff Richard's 'Merry Christmas Everyone'.
    Soon, they will go to the Trafford Centre and take their pre-teen exuberance elsewhere.
    It's not a big thing. But, you know, not everything is doom and gloom.
    That's Shakey not Cliff, isn't it?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,761
    kinabalu said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    It all feels like part of Omnigeddon

    The Collapse of Everything. A bizarro-world where what can fall apart WILL fall apart - from the World Cup to Twitter to Britain
    If you want some more cheerful news, my oldest daughter has an inset day from school. I have a houseful, downstairs, of LOUD, happy 12 year olds. The sound of shouting and laughter and song reverberates around the house. They have just segued from a surprisingly loud conversation about trousers into singing Cliff Richard's 'Merry Christmas Everyone'.
    Soon, they will go to the Trafford Centre and take their pre-teen exuberance elsewhere.
    It's not a big thing. But, you know, not everything is doom and gloom.
    That's Shakey not Cliff, isn't it?
    On reflection, you're quite right.*

    *Phrase not often heard on pb.com.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,527

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    People who are against ID cards as basic freedom are now mysteriously in favour of compulsory ID at moments when it favours them electorally. Hmmm.
  • FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






    Combination of austerity and Brexit. The Conservative government were responsible for both, of course.

    (Disclosure: I did think austerity was necessary at time. Now think I was wrong)
    But also, growing numbers of retired people. Who by definition largely aren't producing because they're retired. Intuitively, that feels like it ought to hurt the GDP per person ratio more than importing low-paid workers. What do the GDP per FTE worker figures look like? Certainly a bigger issue for NHS demand.

    And heaven knows how you get people in their late 50s and 60s, who have paid off their mortgage, built up a retirement pot and are comfortable and rather enjoying not being in the rat race back into work.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
    I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.

    But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
    I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.

    I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.

    This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
    That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 10,468
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next



    But in part that's because the economy that resulted from the period of Thatcherism was a bit of a mirage. Britain puffed up its growth figures by consuming lots of imports paid for by selling assets.

    There's no way to avoid a crap decade or two, but, if the right things are done now there's at least a chance they will improve. I'd suggest the two most important things are, (1) weaken rent-seeking in the economy, (2) boost investment in science, technology and productivity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next






    Even if you believe the Nike Swoosh theory of Brexitnomics (and I'm not convinced), and accept that there would never be a pleasant time to do the downwards bit ("rip of the plaster" and all that), starting to take the hit in 2019 was unfortunate.

    Not in ways that could have been forseen, but unfortunate all the same.
    Yes, I’m a Brexiteer, but I readily accept we Brexited at the worst possible time
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160
    Sandpit said:

    AlistairM said:

    It's Coming Home for Christmas.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRBLAHjkTo

    "When they decided on Qatar
    Should have checked VAR"

    Nice line - but if you’re going to make your football song political, don’t have the next line “It’s too hot, and too far” and ignore the real reasons people don’t like Qatar.
    It’s too hot, and too far
    Don't ignore
    The reasons people don’t like Qatar


    You are a poet and but you don't know it

  • AlistairM said:

    BBC Breakfast booked both Brian Coxes into the same hotel, causing utter confusion. Absolutely amazing.
    https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1593529992150933510

    Does this have the potential to be like a cheap version of the hadron collider?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160
    Jonathan said:

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    People who are against ID cards as basic freedom are now mysteriously in favour of compulsory ID at moments when it favours them electorally. Hmmm.
    Funny. Old. World.
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,025

    On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    The logical solution is to print a photo on the polling card.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,684
    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    LOL. Your turn FIFA - postpone the first match?
    Sequels are rarely better than the original, but the sequel to Fyre Festival is really shaping up to be a humdinger.
    I was going to say that Qatar could use the World Cup to announce themselves to the world, welcome everyone with open arms, and have their own massive Glastonbury Festival in the desert - much as I’ve witnessed from the UAE in the past couple of decades.

    But instead, it looks like the mullahs are still in charge, and we’ll be instead watching the Fyre Festival.
    I was wined and dined by a Qatari firm in London back in 2017 about a job opportunity. Spectacular pay, and the lifestyle presented was extraordinarily appealing - hard work, but a stunning home, exquisite hotel bars, and a job where my skills would be really valued.

    I was all ready to sign on the dotted line, then the UAE diplomatic crisis kicked off, the Qatari stock market crashed and the job offer fell through. I would have signed in a heartbeat back in 2017 - but knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go out there for double the money.

    This is a PR disaster for Qatar, and it hasn't even started yet.
    That little diplomatic spat caused huge problems for Qatar. Many of the expats working there were employed by UAE companies, because no-one wanted to be on a Qatari visa where your employer basically owns you, and the wives wanted to live in Dubai. That stopped overnight, with thousands of contractors being withdrawn, and construction sites suspended for over a year. The World Cup sites eventually got going again, with massive wages having to be paid to the senior contractors. Thousands of construction managers will now be enjoying retirement in their 40s, having built the WC stadia and hotels.
    Obviously the deaths of construction workers is terrible, and that is rightly getting the attention, but I still think the worst aspect of this is that is a monumental waste of time and money. Had it been played across the Gulf, then it might have made some sense. But this is just plain dumb.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,768
    edited November 18

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next



    But in part that's because the economy that resulted from the period of Thatcherism was a bit of a mirage. Britain puffed up its growth figures by consuming lots of imports paid for by selling assets.

    There's no way to avoid a crap decade or two, but, if the right things are done now there's at least a chance they will improve. I'd suggest the two most important things are, (1) weaken rent-seeking in the economy, (2) boost investment in science, technology and productivity.
    The budget yesterday seemed to introduce a load of measures that are the opposite of (2).....while the focus is on how individually everybody is getting whacked, seemed like lots of very poor choices if the idea is to boost business for the future.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Leon said:

    I readily accept we Brexited at the worst possible time

    And yet, there was no better time
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,870
    edited November 18

    fox327 said:

    The English refusing to accept that Brexit is responsible for the economic crisis is like Americans refusing to accept guns are responsible for gun crime.

    I watched part of Question Time last night, unusually. There were several questions from the audience about the economic and trading effects of Brexit. The Conservative and Labour politicians did not want to talk about this, and had no answers. I think now that both the main political parties are responsible for Brexit, which is contributing substantially to our economic decline.

    I am now considering becoming a supporter of The Rejoin EU Party. There seems to be little point in voting for either the Conservative or Labour parties at the moment with their current policies because they are ignoring the elephant in the room.
    If you lived in Scotland, would you join the Scottish National Party?
    LDs policy is single market the main target.

    Only the Greens of main UK parties are committed to rejoin the full EU
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,660
    Laughing so hard about the Qatari booze ban.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974

    On Topic - I remember when we were having a discussion about voting irregularities on PB. Many people took the line that this didn't happen

    Literally while the discussion was happening, the news of the case (in Birmingham IIRC) where several councillor were arrested while supervising a literal vote forging factory came in.

    The line then changed to "of course local elections are corrupt, we were talking about *national* elections"

    Given the experience of a friend who tried to report his vote stolen in Tower Hamlets (for a national election, among others), I wonder how much suppression of reporting of voting irregularities is going on.

    Incidentally, the changes bring the rest of the UK into line with NI.

    Of course there is fraud. The question is about whether there is sufficient fraud to justify ID checks. The official numbers suggest not. And the absurd list of what counts as ID shows what this is - jerrymandering.
    The friend I mentioned above was told, by the police

    1) That stealing a vote wasn't a crime
    2) That it might be a crime, but wasn't worth reporting
    3) That he was being rouble
    4) That he was a racist - somehow giving the name of the occupier of the flat your vote has been diverted to is evil. The chap in question is an old school Lib Dem - not really one of Nature's Nazis.

    After that he still went ahead and register a compliant. And then had to demand a crime number. Which they gave him. Except when he called back, the crime number was invalid....

    Makes you wonder how many other complaints got shoved into NFA....
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,160
    Jonathan said:

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    People who are against ID cards as basic freedom are now mysteriously in favour of compulsory ID at moments when it favours them electorally. Hmmm.
    Funny. Old. World.

    AlistairM said:

    BBC Breakfast booked both Brian Coxes into the same hotel, causing utter confusion. Absolutely amazing.
    https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1593529992150933510

    Does this have the potential to be like a cheap version of the hadron collider?
    :D:D:D
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,768
    edited November 18
    How Qatar Bought the World Cup
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHjbay54F4U

    While I was well aware of the likes of Jack Warner, I was less aware of the French government connection. I thought Michel Platini was just doing a Blatter, but accusation that it went to the top of France.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    Agreed; if there really is a genuine problem, do something even handed about it.
    These arrangements are pathetic.

    As for MM's 10:25 whataboutery, FPTP is a pile of crap anyway. Give us PR.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,761
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    I readily accept we Brexited at the worst possible time

    And yet, there was no better time
    There was no good time, but there would never be a better time.

    The ideal time was probably some time in the 70s. The more time passed, the less ideal the timing. But there would never be a better time. The question 'if not now, when?' was pertinent. And the answer '30 years ago' probably not that helpful.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 29,974

    Jonathan said:

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    People who are against ID cards as basic freedom are now mysteriously in favour of compulsory ID at moments when it favours them electorally. Hmmm.
    Funny. Old. World.

    AlistairM said:

    BBC Breakfast booked both Brian Coxes into the same hotel, causing utter confusion. Absolutely amazing.
    https://twitter.com/scottygb/status/1593529992150933510

    Does this have the potential to be like a cheap version of the hadron collider?
    :D:D:D
    I'm in favour of ID cards - actually, a unique personal identifying code/number - without the bullshit, unnecessary "Steal all your data in one place" crap.

    2 Alex Coxes - Winston Churchill and the other Winston Churchill comes to mind...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 104,870
    Alistair said:

    Laughing so hard about the Qatari booze ban.

    No booze or sex outside heterosexual marriage allowed in Qatar, so only the most Puritan football fans allowed
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 44,981
    Merc looking unexpectedly quick in FP1.
    It is just FP1, of course.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light...

    NEW Did the campaign to restore Boris Johnson to the Conservative leadership start in a Soho restaurant on Wednesday night at a meeting of the Bring Back Boris WhatsApp group?

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/11/18/what-happened-when-bring-back-boris-whatsapp-group-met-soho/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,469
    Britain under Sunak and Hunt will endure “longest period of wage stagnation for two centuries”


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    edited November 18
    Nigelb said:

    Merc looking unexpectedly quick in FP1.
    It is just FP1, of course.

    It does look good for them at this stage, not that one counts chickens in P1.

    I’m not there this year, watching from home.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Compare & contrast before & after the kami-Kwasi budget https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1593560190670061568/photo/1
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,304

    This seems like pretty revolting and desperate stuff from the Tories. I maintain my view that compulsory voter ID requires a compulsory national ID card. Otherwise it is obviously discriminatory. Presumably those who believe that voter impersonation is a material source of fraud (it isn't) will see a national ID card as a price worth paying.

    Oh, go and hyperventilate into a paper bag.

    Where was your outrage when we had election after election that was on very outdated boundaries? Where the new boundaries would have actively changed the result from a Theresa May minority to a majority Government, for example.

    Revolting and desperate stuff only goes one way, it seems.
    They should update the boundaries, but not sure why you're blaming Labour, your people have been running the country for the last 12 years in case you hadn't noticed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,761

    Jonathan said:

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    People who are against ID cards as basic freedom are now mysteriously in favour of compulsory ID at moments when it favours them electorally. Hmmm.
    Funny. Old. World.
    My initial reaction to this was 'well, yes it does favour them electorally to have fewer fraudulent votes for the other party'.
    Labour tend to take a frustratingly relaxed view of electoral fraud because it benefits them. (I remember when all-postal votes were introduced for the 2002 (or thereabouts) European elections someone from Labour (Peter Hain, or someone like him) declaring that increased electoral fraud was an acceptable price to pay for increased turnout.)

    But I do see your point as well.

    Both sides here see themselves as morally in the right, and have a reasonably good case in doing so.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,398
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next


    He’s right, especially that GDP/Capita is the important statistic to measure, alongside the middle deciles by income stats - that’s the best measure of how the average person feels they’re doing.

    Adding a million unskilled immigrants to the population, who pay little tax, use schools, hospitals, roads and houses - but raise the headline GDP figure - make everyone feel poorer, especially those who are relatively poor already, except for the owners of capital.
    Do you really feel at least a little embarrassed writing that while living and working in Dubai?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,101
    Its now clearer than ever that UK was least equipped to leave EU of any member..low productivity, low skilled economy dependent on single market on many fronts including free movement.. and the N Ireland conundrum for which there’s no solution except a united Ireland. What a mess
    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1593560581591560192
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,982
    On thread:

    It's basically the same trick as they played with individual electoral registration.

    Come up with a new system which is going to have little impact on older voters but will just happen to disenfranchise many younger voters unless they really get their finger out to avoid their vote being suppressed. But many won't until its too late.

    Then it worked a treat for Cameron (in 2015) because older people didn't move around a lot, in contrast to younger people, so pensioners were pretty well all transferred automatically onto the new electoral roll with little difficulty but young people weren't. Areas of poorer private rented accommodation and ethnic minority populations saw the most problems. It probably did personally for Cameron, as the problem was still there in 2016 at the Brexit referendum after which he went.

    Now something similar is going to apply to when you actually go to the polling station.

    The way things are going, voter suppression in the UK is going to reach levels unseen outside of a few US states.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,527
    edited November 18
    It will be harder for the Tories to paint Labour as the party of high taxes when the Tories have the record for the highest taxes.

    This new political reality will take time to sink in, but when it does the Tories have some big challenges. What's the point of a high tax Tory party?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,859
    edited November 18
    Roger said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    ping said:

    So, it seems the open door liberal economists have won over Sunak. Net immigration >200k/yr for the forseeable future. Mostly low skilled. Once you account for the departure of our young smart emigres, the actual immigration figure will be a fair bit higher.

    As we enter the recession - with unemployment predicted to soar - and brits at the bottom of the employment pile have their wages further suppressed, what’s the plan?

    Dismiss them as racist, I guess.

    Plus ca change.

    Why do you think Starmer hasn't signed up to Rejoin?

    For Rejoin (either Soft Rejoin (Brexit In Name Only - I dub thee BINO) or Hard Rejoin) to work, there are two major obstacles.

    One is that wages have risen substantially in low paid jobs. From talking to business people, the issue is not so much a massive shortage of labour, but that there is a lack of downward pressure on wages in low paid jobs. It used to be that if you advertised a low end job at anything from minimum wage up, someone would take it. Generally economic migrants looking for *something*, *anything* to get on the job ladder.

    This isn't migrant blaming or any such shit. Living in central London, you meet, make friends etc with many, many 1st generation migrants. Many, even those in high end jobs *now*, started by cleaning toilets in City offices or similar.

    If free movement is resumed, that downward pressure on low end jobs will resume. Unless the labour market is restructured to stop low skilled jobs simply going back to minimum wage.

    Which would be a very toxic story for whichever government presides over it.

    The other is that Remain is currently selling - "BREXIT is shit. So surrender to the EU and take your deserved punishment" as the narrative.

    That is not going to work electorally. What you need to do is sell - "BREXIT is shit. The EU will be a massive improvement for X, Y, Z".

    Both are doable - much of Europe has found partial solutions to the labour market issue. If you want Europe, you need to sell Europe as a positive.
    The elephant behind the elephant in the room is that the EU would be very reluctant to deal with any request to rejoin. So I don't see the point in policians offering rejoin now, from all the way out here. First we need to realign.

    In practice we are already aligned - our regulations are their regulations are our regulations. So a deal to remove our self-inflicted trade barriers would be much simpler to ask for. Once we have that and people accept reality, then you can have conversations about doing more.

    As for migration, I would be reasonably happy if we actually made the "point-based migration system work". We have a shit ton of vacancies we cannot fill. We need migrants to fill them. Are we allowing migrants in to fill these on any scale? No. Another self-inflicted stupidity.

    What we need is for a brave politician to start asking direct questions. Do you want a job sweeping floors? Cleaning toilets? Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse? Working monotonous warehouse jobs? If the answer is No, then Shut The Fuck Up.
    Your last paragraph is the problem.

    The majority of those “Wiping someone else's elderly parent's arse” are U.K. citizens and always have been.

    The belief that all low paid jobs used to be done by migrants is a very London centric view and wrong, even there.

    You presume that they should be happy to do so for minimum wage. They don’t agree.
    The last figures I saw in the sector from memory pre-Brexit was 88% working UK citizens, 6% are non-EU immigrants with a visa, and 6% are EU immigrants.

    So the idea that free movement is required because Britons won't do the job is preposterous and always was.

    If people won't do the job for minimum wage, then pay more.
    If we’re going to have large scale immigration for the foreseeable - plus Dinghy People - then we might as well rejoin the SM
    You wouldn’t be saying that if you’d got a £3/hr, 30%, pay rise in the last couple of years, and can now afford to live without claiming benefits.
    But now we’re ALL going down the toilet

    I dunno what will solve our problems. They stem from the GFC not Brexit. But freeing up trade might help as we work out what to do next


    He’s right, especially that GDP/Capita is the important statistic to measure, alongside the middle deciles by income stats - that’s the best measure of how the average person feels they’re doing.

    Adding a million unskilled immigrants to the population, who pay little tax, use schools, hospitals, roads and houses - but raise the headline GDP figure - make everyone feel poorer, especially those who are relatively poor already, except for the owners of capital.
    Do you really feel at least a little embarrassed writing that while living and working in Dubai?
    No.

    I live in the most multicultural country in the world, one where the indigenous population have to learn another language just to be able to go shopping in the local mall. I worked for a company with 115 nationalities among its staff, all working in the same country.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,546
    tlg86 said:

    Now the Qataris know they are over the line, they are flexing their muscles. Nothing FIFA can do...

    https://news.sky.com/story/qatar-world-cup-beer-could-be-banned-from-all-stadiums-12750052

    Fans will not be allowed to buy alcohol around World Cup stadiums, Sky News understands.

    The U-turn comes ahead of the tournament's opening game in Qatar on Sunday.

    Sub optimal issue to pick. Qataris are guilty of utterly egregious outrages of all sorts. The Islamic traditions about alcohol is not one of them; any more than the UK ban on cocaine is an outrage, regardless of personal opinions.

  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,761
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Laughing so hard about the Qatari booze ban.

    No booze or sex outside heterosexual marriage allowed in Qatar, so only the most Puritan football fans allowed
    How do they feel about massive amounts of cocaine and fireworks up the arse?
    Part of me is hoping England fans still manage to disgrace themselves even in the face of utter Qatari joylessness. Something to be obscurely proud of.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,768
    edited November 18
    Scott_xP said:

    Its now clearer than ever that UK was least equipped to leave EU of any member..low productivity, low skilled economy dependent on single market on many fronts including free movement.. and the N Ireland conundrum for which there’s no solution except a united Ireland. What a mess
    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1593560581591560192

    This is just hyperbolic nonsense....the LEAST equipped of any EU member.....Hungary for instance is just about to get EU funding worth 10% of GDP. Its so crucial that Orban has had to bow to pressure.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 237
    Eight council by elections yesterday:

    Blackburn with Darwen (Darwen South) - Lab GAIN from Con
    Bolsover (Pinxton) - Lab Hold
    Blackpool (Greenlands) - Lab GAIN from Con
    Glasgow (Linn) - Lab Hold
    Oldham (Hollinwood) - Lab Hold
    Rhondda Cynon Taf (Abercynon) - Lab Hold
    Shetland (Shetland West) - Ind Hold
    Suffolk (Beccles) - Grn Hold

    Good Week/Bad Week Index

    Lab +316
    Grn +50
    SNP -7
    PC -7
    LDm -14
    Con -129

    Adjusted Seat Value

    Lab +5.3
    Grn +0.8
    SNP -0.1
    PC -0.1
    LDm -0.2
    Con -2.2

    Labour doing positively across the board, ranging from decent in Oldham to very good n Bolsover and Glasgow.
    Green held very well in Suffolk. Not much for the LibDems, SNP or PC to celebrate.
    Another poor week for the Cons - not their worst recently, but still pretty terrible.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,250
    Scott_xP said:

    Its now clearer than ever that UK was least equipped to leave EU of any member..low productivity, low skilled economy dependent on single market on many fronts including free movement.. and the N Ireland conundrum for which there’s no solution except a united Ireland. What a mess
    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1593560581591560192

    I see that even Leon is now saying that Brexit was sub-optimal. We are where we are and all that, but the Brexit utopians - Boris, Farage, Hannon etc. - really deserve nothing but exile from the public sphere.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,527

    Scott_xP said:

    Its now clearer than ever that UK was least equipped to leave EU of any member..low productivity, low skilled economy dependent on single market on many fronts including free movement.. and the N Ireland conundrum for which there’s no solution except a united Ireland. What a mess
    https://twitter.com/steverichards14/status/1593560581591560192

    I see that even Leon is now saying that Brexit was sub-optimal. We are where we are and all that, but the Brexit utopians - Boris, Farage, Hannon etc. - really deserve nothing but exile from the public sphere.
    the guilty men
  • DriverDriver Posts: 2,025

    I can't remember if this is the current proposal/state of affairs, but the pilot for voter ID did enable anyone who didn't have one of he dozens of suitable types to get one for free, upon request from their local council. If that's the case, then there's no problem at all.

    Of course there is a problem. You are completely tone deaf on this.

    Voting should be easy – a fundamental human right – it should not involve jumping through various bureaucratic hoops set by some governmental shill in Whitehall and fully endorsed by 'Morris Dancer'.
    "various bureaucratic hoops" like proving you have the right to vote?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 3,982
    edited November 18

    On topic there is actually some logic behind as was explained last night. Obtaining the 60+ Oyster is dependent on providing other proof of identification - thus it is a proxy ID. There is no such requirement for the 18+ card, so it is not suitable.

    Of course it can and will be spun as an attempt to stop younger voters, Having read the debate last night I now think it is cack-handed but not malicious.

    I have always said that ID should only be needed to vote if you do not bring your Polling Card. Job done.

    However, when all the cack always ends up on the same hand, one has to wonder.

    (Bottom line: this plan will probably make election results a less accurate reflection of the will of the people than the status quo. Even if it's not by much, that seems like a bad thing.)
    Is there a problem in the UK with voter fraud? Probably happens at quite a low level. Should people be required to prove they are eligible to vote? I believe the answer is yes. How you achieve it fairly is a good question, but I find it weird that routinely accept proving ID for many things in life, but somehow think we should have to for voting.
    It is not quite that simple. What is complained of in the header is not ID proof per se, but that one group is told they simply need to flash a card they already have, while another group is told they have to jump through hoops to obtain something they do not already have.

    Are there any signs this will be made easy? The finale of the sitcom Derry Girls, set on the day of the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum, starts with one of the girls collecting her NI voting card. It seems reasonably straightforward. Watch it (or the first couple of minutes) on
    https://www.channel4.com/programmes/derry-girls/on-demand/68257-007
    That's anything but easy. It's requiring someone to jump through a hoop, at considerable time and probably extra expense too in the form of travel costs. It's as if young people are being required to vote twice for their vote to count, once at their local polling station, but before that at a place miles away from where they live just to be able to do the former.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 2,925
    Nigelb said:

    Merc looking unexpectedly quick in FP1.
    It is just FP1, of course.

    I think they have corrected something recently which had hindered their speed this year, the Merc is now the fastest car, shame it took all season to find it.
  • Alistair said:

    Laughing so hard about the Qatari booze ban.

    Surely it will just lead to pre-loading and smuggling in spirits, both of which seem likely to make matters worse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,222

    On thread:

    It's basically the same trick as they played with individual electoral registration.

    Come up with a new system which is going to have little impact on older voters but will just happen to disenfranchise many younger voters unless they really get their finger out to avoid their vote being suppressed. But many won't until its too late.

    Then it worked a treat for Cameron (in 2015) because older people didn't move around a lot, in contrast to younger people, so pensioners were pretty well all transferred automatically onto the new electoral roll with little difficulty but young people weren't. Areas of poorer private rented accommodation and ethnic minority populations saw the most problems. It probably did personally for Cameron, as the problem was still there in 2016 at the Brexit referendum after which he went.

    Now something similar is going to apply to when you actually go to the polling station.

    The way things are going, voter suppression in the UK is going to reach levels unseen outside of a few US states.

    I think that this is a somewhat hyperbolic response. I have had 2 kids come on to the electoral roll in the last few years. One happened fairly automatically through her school. The other didn't bother himself and was pursued surprisingly enthusiastically by the local Electoral Officer until he finally completed the necessary paperwork. My understanding is that most schools facilitate at least the first entry on the rolls.

    Of course it is true that younger people move around more and have more temporary addresses as they look to get going in their careers or their studies. It is inevitable that more of them will fall through the cracks once they have left home. Efforts should be made to encourage them to take this seriously and to be registered. But I do not see anything in this country that comes within a million miles of the US systems which can prevent those with a conviction from voting (when convicts for lots of social reasons and naked racism are preponderately black) in the UK, and that is a good thing.
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