A Tribute Act – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Like I say, sounds like a diary entry...Scott_xP said:The lady’s not for not turning. #Trussterfuck
https://twitter.com/CountBinface/status/15768305662046044170 -
What an almighty cheek to say it's a distraction when they've been saying for over a week it was the best thing they could possibly do.0
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The symbolism of this defeat extends far beyond the narrow 45p issue.Scott_xP said:The Rishi Sunak Party has used its veto in a hung parliament
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1576828722690203648
Truss/Kwarteng can no longer propose radical libertarian reform and assume they a majority for it.0 -
So will KK go sooner or later? It would be unprecedented for a chancellor to survive this.0
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The press seem to be a little less evasive.Nigelb said:How aware are most Russians of the scale if their military reverses ?
https://mobile.twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1576802301075156992
By now we've all seen the hunt for scapegoats by Russian military bloggers playing out following the defeat to Ukraine in Lyman
But what did state TV's mammoth Sunday night news shows have to say about it?..
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1576823713252757505
In today’s Russian papers:
* “The surrender of Lyman becomes a political problem.”
* Mobilisation “has rocked the boat of political stability.”
* The world “on the edge of a [nuclear] catastrophe.”
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Philp disowning it, to @KayBurley.
He says: “I wouldn’t describe it as my idea, no. I did not produce a paper specifically on this measure. We discuss lots of ideas” 👀
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/15768318132844175360 -
Because it was written before I saw his more detailed post… I have many talents but the ability to answer a post before reading it is not one of themNigelb said:
You haven't addressed any of the thoughtful arguments he just made.StillWaters said:
He equates the principle of “democracy” with the voting mechanism that gives his favoured party the best shot at power.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
Not a thoughtful person
The same critique is more fairly applied to you.0 -
Daily Mail changed its front-page around midnight to reflect the potential u-turn
https://twitter.com/davidyelland/status/15767107284336025602 -
Chute!ydoethur said:
FoxThePoliticalParty said:
Hunt!ThePoliticalParty said:
Raab, Zahawi, Javid…Ratters said:One trouble the government has is that backbench Tories (Gove, Sunak, Patel, May, even Shapps) carry more weight than pretty much the entire Cabinet.
They are about to learn the downside of
forgoing an inclusive frontbench after Truss's win.
😜0 -
"This has become a distraction and I would like to move on and talk about growth." https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1576832429352169472/photo/1
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Chaos at the English-Scottish border this morning as those convoys of millionaire Jocks moving to England for the benign tax regime u-turn when they realise it’s a complete waste of time.6
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As Ian King on Sky business has just said this measures has not had an effect on the market or the pound which remains at 1.1186 and Bloomberg has just said their credit has not been restored in the marketHYUFD said:So Truss and Kwarteng have made the necessary u turn and dumped the cut in the 45p top rate which was polititically toxic at the
moment. Also calms the markets and sterling has risen0 -
Excruciating interview with KK on R4.0
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Well quite, it turns out that the markets hate the energy and NI policies that both parties agree on.0
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They have successfully moved the debate on from giving tax cuts to rich people.
The debate is now who thought of it, who approved it, who reversed it, who gets the blame for it, and how many more times will it still bite them in the ass0 -
The app on my phone gives much the same information. The only significant strengthening is against the Thai Baht!Big_G_NorthWales said:
As Ian King on Sky business has just said this measures has not had an effect on the market or the pound which remains at 1.1186 and Bloomberg has just said their credit has not been restored in the marketHYUFD said:So Truss and Kwarteng have made the necessary u turn and dumped the cut in the 45p top rate which was polititically toxic at the
moment. Also calms the markets and sterling has risen0 -
Is that no 10 flat ?Scott_xP said:"This has become a distraction and I would like to move on and talk about growth." https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1576832429352169472/photo/1
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That’s the system I first proposed in the 90s…Nigelb said:
Which would still happen in larger multi member constituencies with STV - except that the voice of those outside the winning national plurality (likely to be only 40% of those voting under FPTP) would be far better represented.StillWaters said:
You are making the mistake of viewing the UK as one demos whereas it is many.ClippP said:
One where every vote counts. And where we end up with a government - not necessarily of just one party - which reflects the wishes of the people.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
So no minority governments, and no safe seats.
London has different priorities to Cornwall or Yorkshire, for example.
With our current system each local community gets to vote for their representative who then has an equal say alongside the other communities.
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Then perhaps hold back on the ad hominems until you're sure they're deserved ?StillWaters said:
Because it was written before I saw his more detailed post… I have many talents but the ability to answer a post before reading it is not one of themNigelb said:
You haven't addressed any of the thoughtful arguments he just made.StillWaters said:
He equates the principle of “democracy” with the voting mechanism that gives his favoured party the best shot at power.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
Not a thoughtful person
The same critique is more fairly applied to you.
I'll admit to having been made to look silly in just the same way myself.
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What's your issue with that statement?Scott_xP said:He's the numbers guy...
The Chancellor tells @bbcbreakfast "95% of the package is what we are 100% focused on."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1576823197789405184
The 45p tax change was just £2bn of the £45bn package. If £43bn of tax cuts go through having reversed on the £2bn then that is 95% of the package. And since they're not focused on the £2bn anymore, since its been reversed, it makes sense to be focused on the remaining £43bn.
The numbers make sense there.1 -
KK cannot admit a mistake. Is there something wrong with him?0
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Snap. This is my position entirely.JosiasJessop said:
Why 'no safe seats' ? How do you achieve that whilst still reflecting the wishes of the (local) people?ClippP said:
One where every vote counts. And where we end up with a government - not necessarily of just one party - which reflects the wishes of the people.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
So no minority governments, and no safe seats.
Here are some of my thoughts on this:
*) I want a system where we vote for individuals, not parties.
*) I want to vote on manifestos, not post-election backroom deals.
*) I want to reduce, not increase, the power of parties. (*)
*) I want a voting system where votes are accountable and transparent, yet also protects the individual's vote.
*) I would like (but won't get) a system that allows governments to look more than one electoral cycle ahead.
(*) IMO this is *really* important in a democracy. Powerful parties are one of the steps on the road towards bad government, or even non-democracy.1 -
I wouldn’t have the votes at county level but at community level. I used counties as an example of different interestsClippP said:
Currently, Cornwall has six MPs all of them from the ruling Conservative Party. Does this state of things represent the views of Cornwall as a whole?StillWaters said:
You are making the mistake of viewing the UK as one demos whereas it is many.ClippP said:
One where every vote counts. And where we end up with a government - not necessarily of just one party - which reflects the wishes of the people.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
So no minority governments, and no safe seats.
London has different priorities to Cornwall or Yorkshire, for example.
With our current system each local community gets to vote for their representative who then has an equal say alongside the other communities.0 -
You keep using this word “jock”. WTF does it mean?Theuniondivvie said:Chaos at the English-Scottish border this morning as those convoys of millionaire Jocks moving to England for the benign tax regime u-turn when they realise it’s a complete waste of time.
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“What I’m telling you, and I don’t think your listening”.
Too tip Tories, you need to get rid of this guy. He’s politically deaf.0 -
Kwarteng loses his rag with Nick Robinson after being told there is now a "Kwarteng premium" on people's mortgage rates: "What you are presenting is a complete distortion of reality."
https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/15768348289843855412 -
Kwarteng says it is not “parliamentary games” that led to the u-turn but it is quite clear MPs were saying to No10&11 that they would not vote for it and telling them to change course
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/15768347946456924160 -
No, the wallpaper isn't hideous enough.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is that no 10 flat ?Scott_xP said:"This has become a distraction and I would like to move on and talk about growth." https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1576832429352169472/photo/1
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Today's u turn means that on the 19% rate, the NI change, and the 2 year cap both conservative and labour are in the same place, following Reeves confirmation yesterday they support the 2 year capEPG said:Well quite, it turns out that the markets hate the energy and NI policies that both parties agree on.
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Yes. I wouldn't criticize someone for having ideas. We need those. But a grown up politician shouldn't have had to think about this one too long. Nobody forced them to run with it.ydoethur said:
They're going to throw him under the bus, aren't they, in an unedifying attempt to save their worthless selves.Scott_xP said:Tory insiders claim that it was, in fact, Treasury chief sec Chris Philp who had the idea to cut the 45p tax rate, presenting Truss and Kwarteng with a paper on it during leadership campaign.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1576819652902400000
But that doesn't work. If they had any sense they would have told him it was politically tin-eared, economically suicidal and therefore a total non-starter.0 -
Kwarteng tells BBC "it is a complete distortion" to characterise budget as something that caused mortgages to go up over 900 pounds A YEAR.
On this he maybe probably correct, as many I spoke to last week said their mortgages were up hundreds of pounds A MONTH after his budget
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/15768350877561937920 -
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No, but the dog is called Lulu.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is that no 10 flat ?Scott_xP said:"This has become a distraction and I would like to move on and talk about growth." https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1576832429352169472/photo/1
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It’s just about the only thing that @ClippP posts on. Also it was a disagreement not an ad hominem. He was making a fundamental error by equating two separate thingsNigelb said:
Then perhaps hold back on the ad hominems until you're sure they're deserved ?StillWaters said:
Because it was written before I saw his more detailed post… I have many talents but the ability to answer a post before reading it is not one of themNigelb said:
You haven't addressed any of the thoughtful arguments he just made.StillWaters said:
He equates the principle of “democracy” with the voting mechanism that gives his favoured party the best shot at power.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
Not a thoughtful person
The same critique is more fairly applied to you.
I'll admit to having been made to look silly in just the same way myself.
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What LizT and Kwasi need to focus on is not the remaining tax cuts but by precisely what mechanism they lead to growth. That's what the markets (and the people) need to see.BartholomewRoberts said:
What's your issue with that statement?Scott_xP said:He's the numbers guy...
The Chancellor tells @bbcbreakfast "95% of the package is what we are 100% focused on."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1576823197789405184
The 45p tax change was just £2bn of the £45bn package. If £43bn of tax cuts go through having reversed on the £2bn then that is 95% of the package. And since they're not focused on the £2bn anymore, since its been reversed, it makes sense to be focused on the remaining £43bn.
The numbers make sense there.1 -
My radio just turned itself off mid Kwarteng interview. I feel its pain.
https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/1576835395589136384
This interview is brutal. It's the sound of fucked, with crystal clarity in full HD.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/15768357203582648330 -
Fair comment, and I did not mark it off topicStuartinromford said:
No, the wallpaper isn't hideous enough.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Is that no 10 flat ?Scott_xP said:"This has become a distraction and I would like to move on and talk about growth." https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1576832429352169472/photo/1
1 -
Was the 45p tax cut your idea?
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Philp refuses to provide details on who suggested the tax cut, stating that he wouldn't share "private conversations" but says he "would not describe it as his idea".
#KayBurley: https://trib.al/ecixuwi https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1576834685270999041/video/10 -
In office but not in power.Ratters said:
The symbolism of this defeat extends far beyond the narrow 45p issue.Scott_xP said:The Rishi Sunak Party has used its veto in a hung parliament
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1576828722690203648
Truss/Kwarteng can no longer propose radical libertarian reform and assume they a majority for it.
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But if I, as an elector, have a wide choice of electable candidates with a variety of different values and proposals, I no longer need a party, do I, Mr Waters? At best, a party is an approximation to what I want to see. I am not necessarily equally in favour of all the parts of the party package.StillWaters said:
He equates the principle of “democracy” with the voting mechanism that gives his favoured party the best shot at power.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
Not a thoughtful person0 -
Not heard an interview like that in ages. KK is a one man Labour vote factory.1
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I'll bet he wouldn't. Look to the Taxpayers Alliance or one of those other think tanks advising this government or, possibly, one of those hedge fund friends of Kwasi.Scott_xP said:Was the 45p tax cut your idea?
Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Chris Philp refuses to provide details on who suggested the tax cut, stating that he wouldn't share "private conversations" but says he "would not describe it as his idea".
#KayBurley: https://trib.al/ecixuwi https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1576834685270999041/video/1
It really doesn't matter who proposed it - other than give us the endlessly amusing spectacle of watching them all turn on each other. They were all too stupid to realise what a bad idea it was at this time.0 -
Point of order. Tinfoil doesn't rust. Iron does.Scott_xP said:Tory MP tells me: "She is now more Tinfoil Woman than Iron Lady. The rust has set in very early.”
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/15768267529027584002 -
It seems conservative mps have demonstrated that they are able to exercise the power to remove Kwarteng/ Truss, and Truss will be removed in 2023 unless she can turn things roundCyclefree said:
In office but not in power.Ratters said:
The symbolism of this defeat extends far beyond the narrow 45p issue.Scott_xP said:The Rishi Sunak Party has used its veto in a hung parliament
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1576828722690203648
Truss/Kwarteng can no longer propose radical libertarian reform and assume they a majority for it.0 -
Uh oh, the language police have been triggered again.DougSeal said:
You keep using this word “jock”. WTF does it mean?Theuniondivvie said:Chaos at the English-Scottish border this morning as those convoys of millionaire Jocks moving to England for the benign tax regime u-turn when they realise it’s a complete waste of time.
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Kwarteng like Truss: incapable of anything but the most banal copy-and-paste political sloganeering: 'What I'm focusing on' etc etc. No intellectual presence in the conversation at all.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1576836990242549761
What is jarring (to use the Schapps word) is that this such a humbling moment for the government and the chancellor, and yet the tone of @KwasiKwarteng is pure arrogance
https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/15768373420771942401 -
‘She’s going to have real trouble now because those who’ve supported her with this will be as pissed off as those who can’t stand her!' - one pro-Truss MP https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-would-tory-mps-trust-truss-now-0
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Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.0
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EXCL: Tory donor defects to Labour and hits out at the “GCSE economics” of “zealots” Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/04e69744-4285-11ed-abc9-d0d53e948d21?shareToken=3896eafba0c847a9f6274638834889430 -
Cabinet ministers blindsided by the 45p move. Spoke to one this morning who found out first via the media then a call around 7am confirming.
Full cabinet wasn’t consulted when the original policy was adopted; wasn’t consulted when it was scrapped.
https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/15768375717236858882 -
LOL U turn!
Has this Government's credibility reached an all time low?
How low can you go?!0 -
Government U-turns would be less humiliating if the comms line the day before wasn't always some variation of, "our policy is obviously correct and anyone who doesn't see that is a remoaner cuck declinist probably working for Putin, or worse, Macron."
https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/15768371783696588820 -
Kwasi Kwarteng has just become my favourite politician. This man is pure gold.1
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This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of a 45 billion package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy on the back of this one..0 -
Yesterdays trail for todays papers for this afternoons speech from Chancellor: “We must stay the course. I am confident our plan is the right one.” https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1576838459838566401/photo/10
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They best junk the Corporation Tax cuts then - because we have 12 years of recent history that demonstrates it doesn't generate investment - it encourages short term profiteering at the cost of medium term let alone long term viability.DecrepiterJohnL said:
What LizT and Kwasi need to focus on is not the remaining tax cuts but by precisely what mechanism they lead to growth. That's what the markets (and the people) need to see.BartholomewRoberts said:
What's your issue with that statement?Scott_xP said:He's the numbers guy...
The Chancellor tells @bbcbreakfast "95% of the package is what we are 100% focused on."
https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1576823197789405184
The 45p tax change was just £2bn of the £45bn package. If £43bn of tax cuts go through having reversed on the £2bn then that is 95% of the package. And since they're not focused on the £2bn anymore, since its been reversed, it makes sense to be focused on the remaining £43bn.
The numbers make sense there.
I'm sorry but I see nothing in the mini budget or subsequent gossip (because things like cutting HS2 hasn't been announced yet) that says they understand how to grow the economy.
And if they are going to bin HS2 they may as well write off the Home County seats it runs through. If they aren't even going to complete it the pain really isn't worth it..2 -
A search indicates that it is many things, but apparently in British English is sometimes refers to a Scotsman, and that sometimes this is offensive.DougSeal said:
You keep using this word “jock”. WTF does it mean?Theuniondivvie said:Chaos at the English-Scottish border this morning as those convoys of millionaire Jocks moving to England for the benign tax regime u-turn when they realise it’s a complete waste of time.
I wonder if any PBers can give empirical evidence of this strange use and/or its power to offend?
"Jock
in British English
(dʒɒk IPA Pronunciation Guide)
NOUN sometimes offensive
a slang word or term of address for a Scot"
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The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..3 -
It could be a good time to consider joining the conservative party though. The likes of Gove and Sunak aren't going to be back in high office until the membership want it. Who actually gains by the Conservative party going in to a death spiral? FPTP ensures that a new party will get nowhere. Starmer is a great leader but any faith in the labour party is deeply misguided. Look at the 'Corbyn' generation of MP's that mostly fill out its backbenches.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
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The £ is now up .64% against the dollarBig_G_NorthWales said:
As Ian King on Sky business has just said this measures has not had an effect on the market or the pound which remains at 1.1186 and Bloomberg has just said their credit has not been restored in the marketHYUFD said:So Truss and Kwarteng have made the necessary u turn and dumped the cut in the 45p top rate which was polititically toxic at the
moment. Also calms the markets and sterling has risen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market-data0 -
Yes, I rejoined late last week.darkage said:
It could be a good time to consider joining the conservative party though. The likes of Gove and Sunak aren't going to be back in high office until the membership want it. Who actually gains by the Conservative party going in to a death spiral? FPTP ensures that a new party will get nowhere. Starmer is a great leader but any faith in the labour party is deeply misguided. Look at the 'Corbyn' generation of MP's that mostly fill out its backbenches.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
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Is it just me, or was the policy originally conceived as a political move to signal distance from previous administrations and has now been ditched today to avoid further bad headlines at conference.
They talk long term strategy, but this is all short term politics.0 -
He got a bit cross, didn't he.Jonathan said:
KK used the word ‘proud’ this morning. He is remarkably arrogant.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
Anyway it doesn't matter. He's a dead man walking. Truss's departure will be slower and more carefully timed, but there is no way the Tories can go into the next election with these two up front and centre stage.1 -
Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..2 -
Labour are currently very good at picking dividing lines. They are more in control of this than the government.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..0 -
100mph climb down on 45p - rebels may wonder what to pick off next? https://twitter.com/bbcpolitics/status/1576812109073113088Peter_the_Punter said:
He got a bit cross, didn't he.Jonathan said:
KK used the word ‘proud’ this morning. He is remarkably arrogant.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
Anyway it doesn't matter. He's a dead man walking. Truss's departure will be slower and more carefully timed, but there is no way the Tories can go into the next election with these two up front and centre stage.
I wonder if the next thing they pick off is the chancellor...0 -
None of the business commentators either on Sky, BBC or Bloomberg agree with youHYUFD said:
The £ is now up .64% against the dollarBig_G_NorthWales said:
As Ian King on Sky business has just said this measures has not had an effect on the market or the pound which remains at 1.1186 and Bloomberg has just said their credit has not been restored in the marketHYUFD said:So Truss and Kwarteng have made the necessary u turn and dumped the cut in the 45p top rate which was polititically toxic at the
moment. Also calms the markets and sterling has risen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market-data
This has hardly registered in the markets0 -
Not on ending the bankers' bonus cap however nor on the corporation tax cutBig_G_NorthWales said:
Today's u turn means that on the 19% rate, the NI change, and the 2 year cap both conservative and labour are in the same place, following Reeves confirmation yesterday they support the 2 year capEPG said:Well quite, it turns out that the markets hate the energy and NI policies that both parties agree on.
0 -
On the other hand, underneath is a link to:-Scott_xP said:EXCL: Tory donor defects to Labour and hits out at the “GCSE economics” of “zealots” Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/04e69744-4285-11ed-abc9-d0d53e948d21?shareToken=3896eafba0c847a9f627463883488943
Tory donors return to the fold after Kwasi Kwarteng’s mini-budget
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tory-donors-return-to-the-fold-after-kwasi-kwartengs-mini-budget-9mn6tz5zr (£££)0 -
And the Liberal Government was pushing through Parliament over a hundred years ago, when everything was interrupted by the Great War.StillWaters said:
That’s the system I first proposed in the 90s…Nigelb said:
Which would still happen in larger multi member constituencies with STV - except that the voice of those outside the winning national plurality (likely to be only 40% of those voting under FPTP) would be far better represented.StillWaters said:
You are making the mistake of viewing the UK as one demos whereas it is many.ClippP said:
One where every vote counts. And where we end up with a government - not necessarily of just one party - which reflects the wishes of the people.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
So no minority governments, and no safe seats.
London has different priorities to Cornwall or Yorkshire, for example.
With our current system each local community gets to vote for their representative who then has an equal say alongside the other communities.0 -
Hence rejoining the party, the current Tory party membership is completely out of touch with reality. Hopefully I can go to some events and tell them they're all grasping, selfish and out of touch.Peter_the_Punter said:
He got a bit cross, didn't he.Jonathan said:
KK used the word ‘proud’ this morning. He is remarkably arrogant.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
Anyway it doesn't matter. He's a dead man walking. Truss's departure will be slower and more carefully timed, but there is no way the Tories can go into the next election with these two up front and centre stage.4 -
Which is why you elect a representative not a delegate. But parties are too powerful, I agree.ClippP said:
But if I, as an elector, have a wide choice of electable candidates with a variety of different values and proposals, I no longer need a party, do I, Mr Waters? At best, a party is an approximation to what I want to see. I am not necessarily equally in favour of all the parts of the party package.StillWaters said:
He equates the principle of “democracy” with the voting mechanism that gives his favoured party the best shot at power.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
Not a thoughtful person
However PR pushes the decisions further away from the people and into the coalition building process
2 -
Corporation tax reduction and bankers bonuses are the remaining divideWhisperingOracle said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..0 -
This will raise eyebrows at Buckingham Palace. Has @KwasiKwarteng forgotten that as Chancellor he is a royal trustee who, with the Prime Minister, actually sets the percentage of Crown Estate profits that are paid for the Sovereign Grant? https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/15768307580185026571
-
Because of the current probabilities the only importance of the Tory view is whether they can get us through to 2024 with a degree of damage limitation and without actually destroying the nation. The politically interesting question is Labour's long term costed strategy, and what IFS etc have to say about it.Scott_xP said:
Both of which they are REALLY bad atJonathan said:They talk long term strategy, but this is all short term politics.
Labour's position on this or that short term thing is tactics. It is their strategy and the instruments to implement the long term that matter.
We may be in for a wait.
0 -
I agree with much of what you say, and think you'd like the Swiss system which forces voters to take direct responsibility, one issue at a time. The parties are essentially advisory bodies.JosiasJessop said:
Oh, I agree, and it's important not to turn them into holy grails. Like voting at an election: unless you're a party zealot, no one party will probably match everything you want. There will be some policies you love, and some you dislike. Ditto the people within.
There'll be things I dislike about *any* voting system; there will be compromises to the above (except for the sanctity of the actual voting process - I won't back down on that). It's a case of being adult and picking the bext compromise.
I'm not saying we do not have political parties; just that they should be given as little power as possible, whereas they always want to get more power.
That said, I think your perception of parties as monolithic forces detached from MPs and forcing them to act against their better judgment is exaggerated. Most MPs have been members of their parties for many years, not usually for career reasons but because they broadly agree with them. Of course there are times when MPs say to each other "Are we REALLY going ahead with this thing?" but most of the time there's a sense of common purpose and the party is voluntarily given the benefit of the doubt, so "giving parties less power" would make little difference. I make mostly pro-Labour posts here, with occasional criticisms, because it's what I think - nobody is pressing me to post.
It was much the same as an MP, except that when I had criticisms I'd get a discussion with the Minister an, usually, some tweaks to make the policy more acceptable - much as Gove & co have done over the 45p. I was only once directly pressured by a whip - "If you won't that way, you won't get any visits from senior Ministers at election time". I laughed, and made a point of voting the way I wanted. No repercussions followed and the Chief Whip (Hilary Armstrong) privately apologised.
It's more like a marriage. You sometimes squabble, and generally end up compromising or shrugging and getting over it. Occasionally it gets bad enough to make you split up. But it's misleading to say that one has the "power" over the other.5 -
Corporation tax reduction has been bigged up as one of the "for the wealthy" features of the budget. Yet for those self-employed who are set up as companies, the reversal of the tax increase is a major boost (yes, I am one of them).Big_G_NorthWales said:
Corporation tax reduction and bankers bonuses are the remaining divideWhisperingOracle said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..0 -
Are the Tories now proposing a further windfall tax on energy companies then?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Corporation tax reduction and bankers bonuses are the remaining divideWhisperingOracle said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..1 -
So, Labour now need to campaign on whether KK will u turn on Bankers bonuses.2
-
If the Liberals hadn’t merged with the SDP I would likely vote for themClippP said:
And the Liberal Government was pushing through Parliament over a hundred years ago, when everything was interrupted by the Great War.StillWaters said:
That’s the system I first proposed in the 90s…Nigelb said:
Which would still happen in larger multi member constituencies with STV - except that the voice of those outside the winning national plurality (likely to be only 40% of those voting under FPTP) would be far better represented.StillWaters said:
You are making the mistake of viewing the UK as one demos whereas it is many.ClippP said:
One where every vote counts. And where we end up with a government - not necessarily of just one party - which reflects the wishes of the people.JosiasJessop said:
Why is it 'broken' ? What guiding principles would you start with to choose a 'better' system?ClippP said:
"Free democracy like the Brits", Mr WillG??? Nothing of the kind..... Starting with our broken voting system...WillG said:I see from tonight's thread that you scratch the surface of the appeaser types, and it turns out to be deep seated anti-Americanism behind it. Still smarting from the loss of global superpower status by the British Empire a century ago. All the blame can go to British politicians standing up for the freedom of Europe. Not, say, the fact that millions of Africans and Indians resented living under authoritarian government where they didn't get to choose who runs them.
And of course, just like United Russia scum, the only way they can justify this immoral empire is by pretending democracy is no better. Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians aren't able to be free democracies like the Brits. We are either Russian puppets or American puppets.
So no minority governments, and no safe seats.
London has different priorities to Cornwall or Yorkshire, for example.
With our current system each local community gets to vote for their representative who then has an equal say alongside the other communities.0 -
That's actually quite a tempting thought. I could join the local party and have the opportunity to call Michael Fabricant a stupid c*** to his face.MaxPB said:
Hence rejoining the party, the current Tory party membership is completely out of touch with reality. Hopefully I can go to some events and tell them they're all grasping, selfish and out of touch.Peter_the_Punter said:
He got a bit cross, didn't he.Jonathan said:
KK used the word ‘proud’ this morning. He is remarkably arrogant.MaxPB said:Still not voting for this bunch of c-words. Zero humility.
Anyway it doesn't matter. He's a dead man walking. Truss's departure will be slower and more carefully timed, but there is no way the Tories can go into the next election with these two up front and centre stage.
And then do the same to Gavin Williamson.0 -
Interest rates are going up here because the US is raising interest rates. Simple as that.Scott_xP said:Kwarteng loses his rag with Nick Robinson after being told there is now a "Kwarteng premium" on people's mortgage rates: "What you are presenting is a complete distortion of reality."
https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1576834828984385541
Here are a few articles if you want to check that out.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/inflation-keeps-the-u-s-from-stepping-in-to-slow-dollars-rapid-rise-11664663619?st=jjx37mmmzehwznm&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-a-strong-dollar-means-for-the-rest-of-the-world-11658482200?st=a6khdj103evbbc3&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/business/economy/us-dollar-global-impact.html
1 -
And, I will never forgive him for that.Scott_xP said:Kwarteng tells BBC "it is a complete distortion" to characterise budget as something that caused mortgages to go up over 900 pounds A YEAR.
On this he maybe probably correct, as many I spoke to last week said their mortgages were up hundreds of pounds A MONTH after his budget
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/15768350877561937920 -
He's not an economist, he's a historian.ydoethur said:0 -
President of South Africa and his wife to make the first state visit to the UK of King Charles' reign in November
https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1576712610895929344?s=20&t=QkMHs8xjc5KDTUzGEC0XHA
0 -
Just to note that KK used the word 'contrition' on R4 Today interview with NR. I doubt if this has yet been given proper weight. Normally politicians don't do that.Scott_xP said:Kwarteng like Truss: incapable of anything but the most banal copy-and-paste political sloganeering: 'What I'm focusing on' etc etc. No intellectual presence in the conversation at all.
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1576836990242549761
What is jarring (to use the Schapps word) is that this such a humbling moment for the government and the chancellor, and yet the tone of @KwasiKwarteng is pure arrogance
https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1576837342077194240
He was, of course, in general awful.
0 -
I think that shows you don't understand how the tapering worked for profits between £50,000 to £250,000....TheKitchenCabinet said:
Corporation tax reduction has been bigged up as one of the "for the wealthy" features of the budget. Yet for those self-employed who are set up as companies, the reversal of the tax increase is a major boost (yes, I am one of them).Big_G_NorthWales said:
Corporation tax reduction and bankers bonuses are the remaining divideWhisperingOracle said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
If he wants to support small businesses a way better solution would be a low rate for profits less than £150,000 a year with a higher rate above that...0 -
What a shambles.
Unfit for office.
Clueless.
An embarrassment to the nation.2 -
Elon’s certainly mastered the bloke walking very slowly because he’s shit himself mode.
https://twitter.com/business/status/1576587825109164033?s=21&t=AN7dhJbY6Vjc3kNTiOrjow0 -
I shed no tears for tax rises on personal service scammers.TheKitchenCabinet said:
Corporation tax reduction has been bigged up as one of the "for the wealthy" features of the budget. Yet for those self-employed who are set up as companies, the reversal of the tax increase is a major boost (yes, I am one of them).Big_G_NorthWales said:
Corporation tax reduction and bankers bonuses are the remaining divideWhisperingOracle said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..
Labour isn't supporting a number of the others. We need a full breakdown on this, from one of our stats-expert posters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The extraordinary fact is that labour is now aligned with the conservatives on all the main measures including the 2 year capWhisperingOracle said:This hasn't shifted the UK corporate bond and gilt markets, as I understand it. This is only 2 billion out of 45 million package, as Bartholomew says.
Now there'll have to be more changes of policy, on the back of this one..0 -
On Topic
The Lady is for turning1 -
No. They hate the unfunded nature of the Tories' plan.EPG said:Well quite, it turns out that the markets hate the energy and NI policies that both parties agree on.
0 -
OK, well, in that case he's obviously quite unusual.OnlyLivingBoy said:
He's not an economist, he's a historian.ydoethur said:
The modesty of Cambridge educated historians is legendary. And historians in general are noted for our reserve, humility and lack of hubris.0 -
True, but Labour aren't proposing an 8% of GDP tax increase. They too are just waiting for someone else to do it.Benpointer said:
No. They hate the unfunded nature of the Tories' plan.EPG said:Well quite, it turns out that the markets hate the energy and NI policies that both parties agree on.
0 -
They need to force the Tories to spell out exactly:Jonathan said:So, Labour now need to campaign on whether KK will u turn on Bankers bonuses.
- what spending cuts and supply side measures they intend
- precisely how these will lead to growth
- over what timetable and
- for whom.
We have had no clarity on the first and I am willing to bet that Truss and co., have no answers on the remaining 3.0 -
This is an absolute car crash. He interviews worse than Corbyn!-1
