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A Tribute Act – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 9 in General
imageA Tribute Act – politicalbetting.com

There comes a moment with all governments in power for a long time when, desperate to conjure up some of the old magic, they reprise old popular tunes in the hope – or belief – that they will have the same effect as first time around.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,148
    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,148
    Anyone want to join me?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,753

    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.

    Don't we all?

    If only youth weren't so wasted on the young.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,569
    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,569

    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.

    Erotica
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148
    edited October 2
    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Someone has helpfully posted a clip from the interview that Conservative Chairman Jake Berry did with Sophy Ridge this morning, so I can quote him directly:

    People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get higher salary or higher wages, go out there and get that new job. That's the approach the Government is taking. We are saying "Look, let's create growth so households can afford their bills" as well as the brilliant work we're doing on energy bills.

    So, the general message is that people who are on lower incomes should either freeze in Winter or find better paid work. Great. Firstly the UK 'jobs miracle' that Boris Johnson always used to go on about largely consists of minimum wage crap jobs, so how are all these people suddenly meant to find the kind of upper middle class employment that will still pay them just about enough to heat and eat properly? Secondly, a lot of those who are in full-time employment and yet already rationing fuel use and buying budget brands (or even visiting food banks) are the very same key workers that we were all entreated to praise, and engage in performative pot banging in honour of, only a couple of years ago. If all the chronically underpaid care home workers, nurses and so on who struggle with their bills tried to piss off to work in city financial institutions (or, for that matter, in Aldi) then we, as a nation, would be completely sunk.

    These are our rulers. Tone deaf, cruel and absolutely thick as mince.

    While I think Jake Berry is a tone deaf idiot, I think the misery porn can be overblown. Anyone in middle class employment lives very well.
    This evidently depends very much on your personal circumstances, and on exactly how high your earnings are. With the ridiculous state of rents, mortgages, childcare costs and petrol prices, a lot of really quite well paid couples would nonetheless have been in the just about managing category before the latest inflationary shock. We now have significant food price inflation, most pay settlements contracting in real terms, those nasty domestic energy bills, and very substantial increases in accommodation costs coming round the corner to knock an awful lot of people clear over the edge of the financial precipice. It's not going to be pretty.
    The FT majored heavily a fortnight ago, on the "deterioration" of median incomes over the past 22 years, when the actual data showed median household incomes rising from $30,000 to $44,000 in real terms over that period.
    Two questions immediately spring to mind. Firstly, how much of the reported real terms increase happened in the first eight years and how much in the subsequent period? Secondly, what was the increase in housing costs over the same period? I strongly suspect that figures banded about which purport to show levels of affluence in the likes of Slovenia and Poland about to overtake, or at least approach, those in the UK are rooted in the effects of Britain's system of investments-not-homes property speculation.

    An outright owner-occupier can still live very comfortably in this country off a modest income; mortgage or rent payers, not so much.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,643

    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.

    Immaterial Girl
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,148
    Are we expecting a poll tonight?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148
    edited October 2

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night. Truss is the first ever new PM in government to get a negative bounce!

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    Looks like England are coasting to victory v Pakistan
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,673
    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 3,841

    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.

    Erotica
    Pauper don't preach
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 11,245
    - “mutton dressed as lamb”

    Catfight!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    Facts are facts, removing Boris and replacing him with Truss has turned a potentially narrow Tory defeat or upset victory into a landslide Tory defeat and victory for Starmer
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,365
    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Cuts were not in Truss's leadership campaign either. She did speak of a 10-year plan, and debt-reduction only from year three, helpfully after the next election.

    Kwasi tomorrow and the Prime Minister on Wednesday need to nail down how their hope for growth becomes a plan for growth, or it is all over. Tomorrow afternoon is billed as "Delivering a Growing Economy". They need something.
    https://www.conservatives.com/conference/agenda
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    edited October 2
    And to think the Tories could have had Penny Mordaunt and chose the wooden cold Truss .

    I must say Penny looked great today and her hair should have its own government job !

    Even though I’d never vote Tory she does come across well and of course has the best hair in parliament .


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Truss has noted that Thatcher took tough decisions and was often unpopular and concluded that if she is unpopular, that means her decisions must be right.

    That's about it, yes. You can see this very clearly when the cheerleaders insist that pushing on regardless of criticisms is the right thing, without assessing those criticisms. Or indeed, pretending those criticising are the usual opposition figures only.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,604
    The solution to the Tories woes is not Johnson. He is almost as much a cause as Truss. He was just better at deflecting attention and papering over cracks.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 19,604
    kle4 said:

    Truss has noted that Thatcher took tough decisions and was often unpopular and concluded that if she is unpopular, that means her decisions must be right.

    That's about it, yes. You can see this very clearly when the cheerleaders insist that pushing on regardless of criticisms is the right thing, without assessing those criticisms. Or indeed, pretending those criticising are the usual opposition figures only.

    Giving tax cuts to supporters and donors is not tough. Going for growth on the back of borrowing is not clever.

    Truss is not Thatcher.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    Facts are facts, removing Boris and replacing him with Truss has turned a potentially narrow Tory defeat or upset victory into a landslide Tory defeat and victory for Starmer
    That isn't a fact; it's a prediction.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,148

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,977
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Truss has noted that Thatcher took tough decisions and was often unpopular and concluded that if she is unpopular, that means her decisions must be right.

    That's about it, yes. You can see this very clearly when the cheerleaders insist that pushing on regardless of criticisms is the right thing, without assessing those criticisms. Or indeed, pretending those criticising are the usual opposition figures only.

    Giving tax cuts to supporters and donors is not tough. Going for growth on the back of borrowing is not clever.

    Truss is not Thatcher.
    Supporters? Voting demographics have changed a lot since the 1980s.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,157
    Jonathan said:

    The solution to the Tories woes is not Johnson. He is almost as much a cause as Truss. He was just better at deflecting attention and papering over cracks.

    Though FWIW it seems almost to be a feature nowadays of British politics that whatever preceded the chaos through which we are currently living seems like a golden age by comparison. Absolutely, Johnson is not the saviour that the Tories are looking for - but, unbelievably, he seems preferable to the replacement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    Facts are facts, removing Boris and replacing him with Truss has turned a potentially narrow Tory defeat or upset victory into a landslide Tory defeat and victory for Starmer
    That isn't a fact; it's a prediction.
    A prediction based on current polls
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,361

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Yeah, any other leader would be…wait…
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    The header is right to question the comments about the 45% rate. It just makes no sense that the Cabinet not discuss it, and just plain weird she's already pretending she might not have been fully behind it, since it would be a stupid admission of ineptitude on her part as PM. The point about her wanting growth but not providing clarity is inarguable.

    The method of presenting the plans, to avoid scrutiny and to simply assert things as true with no effort to persuade anyone, has been the most damning part of it all. The MPs at least deserved that even if she doesn't think we did.

    The levelling up secretary I imagine will target local councils, since that is what happened last austerity (with far greater cause) was gone for.

    On the question of if the government understood the market impact, of course it didn't. The second most damning part of this was the realisation that the government had done no preparation for a reaction to its plans that wasn't a gushing tribute from the taxpayers alliance.

    However, I remain unpersuaded on the poitns about mandate. I think she has not done the work to persuade the MPs or the public it is a good idea, but I still have no problem, in theory, about making the attempt, had it been done competently.

    On the point about spending cuts, anything said in the leadership contest was clearly just a fantasy. Low tax, high spend, no more housing targets but lots of housing growth, etc, it as a promise the earth contest.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    edited October 2

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Not only that but Rachel Reeves confirmed the axeing of the NI which together is 20 billion of borrowing

    Furthermore this morning she announced Labour's support for the government's 2 year energy cap but could only quote on going enhanced windfall taxes as paying the costs of over 100 billion
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    It's the Thatcher betrayal narrative all over again. In twenty years' time there'll still be ancient Bufton-Tuftons in quiet corners of the leafy shires grumbling that we wouldn't be living through the fourth term of this awful socialist Government, if only that treasonous Sunak fellow and his minions hadn't brought Boris down.
    They got in very early to make sure that would be the narrative. You could tell they would have been very upset had Truss done a better job, since they've cared more about Boris than the party the whole time.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,304

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Nah. To do otherwise would have been to walk straight into a really obvious Tory trap.

    In any case, there is nothing rightwing about putting money back into the pockets of working people.

    I’m glad Sir Keir Royale backed 19p.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148
    edited October 2
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    It's the Thatcher betrayal narrative all over again. In twenty years' time there'll still be ancient Bufton-Tuftons in quiet corners of the leafy shires grumbling that we wouldn't be living through the fourth term of this awful socialist Government, if only that treasonous Sunak fellow and his minions hadn't brought Boris down.
    As they argued the same about Thatcher being betrayed by Heseltine during the New Labour government years. Boris' shadow will stay over the party for a decade or 2 after he went as Thatcher's did.

    Labour too spent 12 years in opposition and counting after removing Blair as PM and Blairites are only now returning to the party under Starmer after the wilderness years
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    Facts are facts, removing Boris and replacing him with Truss has turned a potentially narrow Tory defeat or upset victory into a landslide Tory defeat and victory for Starmer
    That isn't a fact; it's a prediction.
    A prediction based on current polls
    Which are irrelevant
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    pigeon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Cuts were not in Truss's leadership campaign either. She did speak of a 10-year plan, and debt-reduction only from year three, helpfully after the next election.

    Kwasi tomorrow and the Prime Minister on Wednesday need to nail down how their hope for growth becomes a plan for growth, or it is all over. Tomorrow afternoon is billed as "Delivering a Growing Economy". They need something.
    https://www.conservatives.com/conference/agenda
    I imagine what we'll get is a load of airy aspirational twaddle, leavened with threats to abandon various social, employment and environmental protections that Boris Johnson left well alone. Basically a charter for asset strippers to demolish what's left of the country and carry away the loot.
    Probably. But I'd still like to know how much growth they thought was needed to pay for everything they claimed to want, when they expected that growth, and given the reaction has not been what they planned for, how much growth on top of what they expected is now needed?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Truss has noted that Thatcher took tough decisions and was often unpopular and concluded that if she is unpopular, that means her decisions must be right.

    That's about it, yes. You can see this very clearly when the cheerleaders insist that pushing on regardless of criticisms is the right thing, without assessing those criticisms. Or indeed, pretending those criticising are the usual opposition figures only.

    Giving tax cuts to supporters and donors is not tough. Going for growth on the back of borrowing is not clever.

    Truss is not Thatcher.
    You're unduly harsh - they also gave tax cuts to rich people who were not their supporters, they are equal opportunity when it comes to helping rich people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148
    edited October 2
    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS and their first truly libertarian leader
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Nah. To do otherwise would have been to walk straight into a really obvious Tory trap.

    In any case, there is nothing rightwing about putting money back into the pockets of working people.

    I’m glad Sir Keir Royale backed 19p.
    But it is borrowed as is NI and the argument is you cannot fund tax cuts on borrowing
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,304
    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    I’m starting to wonder whether Owls has been Shanghaied by a spoof poster
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,735
    Good header, thanks once again @Cyclefree
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    Have you thought what you may turn your hand to when the conservatives are rarer then hens teeth ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way? .

    You know that opens up to a 'the goverment should stop doing what it is doing' rejoinder, with that being the positive proposal.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,673

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

    Have you always been so patronising, or is this just a weekend thing?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 988
    edited October 2
    On topic there is a hatchet job incomg on Kwarteng. The rumours that Truss is trying to put some distance in bwetween them, the story on the front of the Sunday Times suggesting he is a patsy for big financiers in the city.

    The top rate of tax thing in particular defied good political sense right now, absolutely fucking stupid, yet they did it.

    Off topic, lot of rumours about Credit Suisse's viability doing the rounds. Some suggest Deutsche having trouble down the mill as well but Credit Suisse has been really dogged by bad hits & mismanagement e.g. Greensill, Archegos. Rumours of course, but a big investment bank going pop is going to have ripples.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    Have you thought what you may turn your hand to when the conservatives are rarer then hens teeth ?
    I will just be a rare hens tooth for a few years
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Though even John Major to be fair to him had more empathy than Truss and got 30% at the 1997 general election (having got 41% at the 1992 general election he won). Under Truss however the Tories are on just 27% with Opinium last night with Truss' pure libertarianism and her and Kwarteng's cut to the top rate of income tax for the highest earners which was not even in her leadership campaign platform and the markets rightly fear will be financed by borrowing while the axe also hangs over cuts in spending and welfare for the poorest

    Indeed and the sobering thought for the conservatives is that Johnson became so toxic precipitating this descent into utter turmoil
    Opinium's final poll under Johnson before he resigned had the Tories on 34%, 7% higher than they were polling with the same pollster under Truss last night

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/VI-2022-06-22-Observer-Tables.xlsx
    You really do not understand Johnson toxic behaviour and his lying was the starting pistol for this ignomony
    Facts are facts, removing Boris and replacing him with Truss has turned a potentially narrow Tory defeat or upset victory into a landslide Tory defeat and victory for Starmer
    That isn't a fact; it's a prediction.
    A prediction based on current polls
    Yes. An informed prediction, but a prediction not a fact nonetheless.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    It's been an odd few years, but at least the marginal wing are back where they belong - on the wing, railing futilely against the wind.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,365
    Nostalgia buffs should watch Channel 5 9-10.30pm.

    1978: Winter of Discontent
    Documentary | 1hour 30minutes
    The story of seven bleak months of industrial chaos that changed Britain forever.

    https://www.channel5.com/tvguide/channel-5
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,304
    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS and their first truly libertarian leader
    You should join Labour. There is a significant socially conservative wing in the party. Not my own tradition or view, but Labour is a broad church.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,735

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Nah. To do otherwise would have been to walk straight into a really obvious Tory trap.

    In any case, there is nothing rightwing about putting money back into the pockets of working people.

    I’m glad Sir Keir Royale backed 19p.
    But it is borrowed as is NI and the argument is you cannot fund tax cuts on borrowing
    But Labour are free to raise taxes in other areas. Indeed they have said they would impose a windfall tax on energy companies, they would not scrap the 45% rate, and as far as I am aware they have not said 'no new taxes' so are free to do all sorts of things to counter the loss to public revenue of the 19p rate. They would be mad to follow the Tories borrowing plan - and Labour are not mad.

    With respect, it is wishful thinking on your part to assume Labour would be just as bad as the current shambles.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    kle4 said:

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way? .

    You know that opens up to a 'the goverment should stop doing what it is doing' rejoinder, with that being the positive proposal.
    I'd be quite happy for someone to propose an alternative to Government policy; I complain about the Government enough. I do just get quite tired of relentlessly bleak headers that are just new and creative ways of saying how shit everything is. Complaining is easy.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Truss will get Kwarteng to announce the U-turn, if it happens. Swiftly followed by his resignation.

    Then she can focus on energy bills and supporting Ukraine. She might even wear a new necklace.

    If she does not announce it on Wednesday in her speech, she will be in even deeper do-do
    If a 40% top rate of tax is good enough for Ireland, why is it unacceptable for the UK?
    It's not the rate, it's the timing, the optics and the context
    Look, I'd benefit massively (on my return to the UK) from the dropping of the tax rate.

    But I think it's madness to be cutting my taxes, while reducing benefits in real terms, during the middle of a cost of living crisis.

    If I was going to do something for higher earners, it would be getting rid of the ridiculous stuff around £100k with the removal of the tax free allowance, etc.
    Yes, I scratch my head over the top tax rate reduction, and ending the cap on bankers' bonuses. You do that sort of thing when the economy is doing fine.
    If I were Chancellor (swapping one 1994 Trinity alumni for another), I would have made a few changes:

    (1) I wouldn't have introduced an energy price cap costing 6.5% of GDP. Ultimately, that won't reduce energy demand as much as it should, because it is dulling the price signal. By contrast, I would have looked at direct support payments to families, that would have covered (on average) 70% of the increase in their bills. If they'd wanted to use that money to pay for energy they could; or they might decide instead to use it on insulation, solar panels, or jumpers. In this way, we'd spend less money, preserve the price signal, and cut gas electricity/demand by more, while avoiding too much pain.

    (2) I would not have gotten rid of the 45% rate of tax. Indeed, I think I might have increased it to 50%, but I would have raised the rate at which it applied to (say) incomes in excess of £250k.

    (3) I would have gotten rid of the removal of the tax free allowance, and all the distortion that causes at c. £100k. (Ditto childcare allowances, etc.)

    (4) I would have introduced much lower rates of stamp duty for anyone "trading down". We want to encourage old people in big, empty houses to move to smaller places, not make it extremely expensive.

    (5) I would equalise tax treatment of mortgage interest between corporate entities and individuals.

    YMMV
    With regard to (1) how would you have dealt with the wholesale collapse of SMEs, with most of our shops and hospitality industry going out of business because of the high energy costs?
    The household price cap solution cannot be used on business, for there is no cap for business - it actually has to be two different solutions, households and business.
    Agreed but Robert's proposals seem to do nothing to address the business issue.
    It’s up to RCS to speak about his own Business Support package, but what I said is true, if we were not wasting such colossal sums on the household package, that wasted money is in play to offer struggling businesses even more help.

    Obviously no pressure on RCS, but Kwarteng at least managed to cobble something together, but the proof of any energy package will be in the heating, and what we know about reaction to the household package, it was hated by those charities who know the struggling well, it just won’t help those in need enough and the current have a hell of a whack coming their way of this, whilst serious economists wince at how much money it wastes from the moment Labour first publicised the rotten idea.

    No. The same household bill freeze package doesn’t have to be means tested, the truth here it just doesn’t have to be that way of doing it at all!

    Think outside your box with the metres in it, by turning the single point Energy Price Cap into a variable price cap where the price per unit of energy used rises with usage. A sliding price cap means marginal user costs increase. RCS is right, it’s the people at the lower end who really need the assistance here, If a solution doesn’t have those most in need front and centre, then it’s not the right solution is it? We should be reducing energy bills for lower-income households in the country while higher earners, who consume more energy, bear a more commensurate share of the higher cost. More help to the the most in need, and a much cheaper solution overall.

    https://www.niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/A-Variable-Energy-Price-Cap.pdf
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS and their first truly libertarian leader
    You should join Labour. There is a significant socially conservative wing in the party. Not my own tradition or view, but Labour is a broad church.
    I will remain Conservative, I am centre right not centre. Just not a libertarian like Truss. You don't need me anyway, you won easily under Blair when I also remained a Tory voter and member
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Some things are just unknowable. Probably down to those anti-semite remainer traitors again.

    "I have no idea where this narrative has emerged from that the government is abandoning Levelling Up" says @DehennaDavison. she does not believe govt is backing away. She agrees with the "Social Capitalism" report. Talks about the Community Ownership Fund as an exemplar.

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1576631910033330176?cxt=HHwWgMCosc2XqeErAAAA
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,735

    Nostalgia buffs should watch Channel 5 9-10.30pm.

    1978: Winter of Discontent
    Documentary | 1hour 30minutes
    The story of seven bleak months of industrial chaos that changed Britain forever.

    https://www.channel5.com/tvguide/channel-5

    I fear I will end up pining for that simpler chaos in preference to today's.
  • Nostalgia buffs should watch Channel 5 9-10.30pm.

    1978: Winter of Discontent
    Documentary | 1hour 30minutes
    The story of seven bleak months of industrial chaos that changed Britain forever.

    https://www.channel5.com/tvguide/channel-5

    No need - I can just watch the news.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,977
    edited October 2
    @trussliz
    We're raising the definition of a small business from 250 to 500 employees. This will cut costs for nearly 40,000 businesses, helping to deliver more jobs, higher wages and to grow our economy.


    https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1576635078096322560
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

    Have you always been so patronising, or is this just a weekend thing?
    I feel it suits the tone of the header.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    pigeon said:

    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Someone has helpfully posted a clip from the interview that Conservative Chairman Jake Berry did with Sophy Ridge this morning, so I can quote him directly:

    People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get higher salary or higher wages, go out there and get that new job. That's the approach the Government is taking. We are saying "Look, let's create growth so households can afford their bills" as well as the brilliant work we're doing on energy bills.

    So, the general message is that people who are on lower incomes should either freeze in Winter or find better paid work. Great. Firstly the UK 'jobs miracle' that Boris Johnson always used to go on about largely consists of minimum wage crap jobs, so how are all these people suddenly meant to find the kind of upper middle class employment that will still pay them just about enough to heat and eat properly? Secondly, a lot of those who are in full-time employment and yet already rationing fuel use and buying budget brands (or even visiting food banks) are the very same key workers that we were all entreated to praise, and engage in performative pot banging in honour of, only a couple of years ago. If all the chronically underpaid care home workers, nurses and so on who struggle with their bills tried to piss off to work in city financial institutions (or, for that matter, in Aldi) then we, as a nation, would be completely sunk.

    These are our rulers. Tone deaf, cruel and absolutely thick as mince.

    While I think Jake Berry is a tone deaf idiot, I think the misery porn can be overblown. Anyone in middle class employment lives very well.
    This evidently depends very much on your personal circumstances, and on exactly how high your earnings are. With the ridiculous state of rents, mortgages, childcare costs and petrol prices, a lot of really quite well paid couples would nonetheless have been in the just about managing category before the latest inflationary shock. We now have significant food price inflation, most pay settlements contracting in real terms, those nasty domestic energy bills, and very substantial increases in accommodation costs coming round the corner to knock an awful lot of people clear over the edge of the financial precipice. It's not going to be pretty.
    The FT majored heavily a fortnight ago, on the "deterioration" of median incomes over the past 22 years, when the actual data showed median household incomes rising from $30,000 to $44,000 in real terms over that period.
    Two questions immediately spring to mind. Firstly, how much of the reported real terms increase happened in the first eight years and how much in the subsequent period? Secondly, what was the increase in housing costs over the same period? I strongly suspect that figures banded about which purport to show levels of affluence in the likes of Slovenia and Poland about to overtake, or at least approach, those in the UK are rooted in the effects of Britain's system of investments-not-homes property speculation.

    An outright owner-occupier can still live very comfortably in this country off a modest income; mortgage or rent payers, not so much.
    If you live in say the north of england and are mortgage free a single person could live very comfortably on 25 grand a year
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Worth nothing this, because when Truss says she is willing to be unpopular it is an untruth. She believes, rightly or not, that it will be popular later.

    Now, she may or may not be right about it generating sufficient growth (I'd argue her lack of preparation and total surprise at what has transpired since the announcement would suggest her plans are likely not going to delivery what she thought), and people will disagree about whether it unfairly hits the poor (but it really does), but I think even if it does work, she will be surprised that people will not suddenly decide they like it. If it was as unpopular as this, it will remain unpopular even if there is some movement.

    I cannot stress enough how UNPOPULAR slashing taxes and cutting spending on public services is. It is an utterly toxic combination. Here is the latest British Social Attitudes survey. It's a 6% position ...

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1576480862857592833?cxt=HHwWgoCgncC_5OArAAAA
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 2,551
    kle4 said:

    Some things are just unknowable. Probably down to those anti-semite remainer traitors again.

    "I have no idea where this narrative has emerged from that the government is abandoning Levelling Up" says @DehennaDavison. she does not believe govt is backing away. She agrees with the "Social Capitalism" report. Talks about the Community Ownership Fund as an exemplar.

    https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/1576631910033330176?cxt=HHwWgMCosc2XqeErAAAA

    Is she delusional . Red Wall Tories need to wake up and smell the coffee .
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    Have you thought what you may turn your hand to when the conservatives are rarer then hens teeth ?
    I will just be a rare hens tooth for a few years
    And with no Johnson to console you
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
    I disagree with HYUFD about almost everything but it is laughable to accuse him of lacking convictions, and far from being a nominal Tory he is someone who works tirelessly for his party at the grassroots level. He was also completely right about Truss, whom he confidently predicted would be a disaster.
    And who has two years to serve.
  • pingping Posts: 3,201
    edited October 2
    Damn. Looks like I missed laying Bolsonaro at 6/4, earlier today.

    Managed to top up my lay at 2/1, in the last few minutes. Currently 7/4.

    Worth noting voting Brazil is electronic (potential for realtime results to leak) - the actual result will come very soon after polls close. Very risky, betting now.

    I’m now leaving the market alone.

    If I have regrets, I think it will be that I didn’t stake the mortgage on Lula at these prices.

    Oh well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,148
    edited October 2

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
    I have voted and campaigned for the party throughout my adult life and will continue to do so despite my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology. I also have never campaigned for another party, Truss started off her political career as a card carrying member of and campaigner for the Liberal Democrats. So I don't need lectures about 'nominal Toryism' from supporters of her!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 42,643

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

    Feel free to write youtr own thread headers.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465
    Sounds depressing when put in these terms, but considering the start of things, and what one hopes is the consistent direction of travel, still impressive.

    Over the month of September 🇺🇦 has liberated approximately 10,608km² of Ukraine.

    This means that 🇷🇺 currently occupies ~17.72% of Ukraine. ~1.76% less of the total area of the country than at the end of August.


    https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1576366096571314176?cxt=HHwWgMDR4ZynsOArAAAA
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

    Feel free to write youtr own thread headers.
    If I think there's a topic on which I can contribute something useful and good enough, especially from a betting standpoint (which is difficult) I will submit it and the team can see if they want to publish it. So far I haven't found that subject.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465

    kle4 said:

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way? .

    You know that opens up to a 'the goverment should stop doing what it is doing' rejoinder, with that being the positive proposal.
    I'd be quite happy for someone to propose an alternative to Government policy; I complain about the Government enough. I do just get quite tired of relentlessly bleak headers that are just new and creative ways of saying how shit everything is. Complaining is easy.
    True, but whilst alternative options are good, sometimes if something is so obviously bad one doesn't need an alternative lined up.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Nah. To do otherwise would have been to walk straight into a really obvious Tory trap.

    In any case, there is nothing rightwing about putting money back into the pockets of working people.

    I’m glad Sir Keir Royale backed 19p.
    But it is borrowed as is NI and the argument is you cannot fund tax cuts on borrowing
    But Labour are free to raise taxes in other areas. Indeed they have said they would impose a windfall tax on energy companies, they would not scrap the 45% rate, and as far as I am aware they have not said 'no new taxes' so are free to do all sorts of things to counter the loss to public revenue of the 19p rate. They would be mad to follow the Tories borrowing plan - and Labour are not mad.

    With respect, it is wishful thinking on your part to assume Labour would be just as bad as the current shambles.
    I am not suggesting they will be anywhere near as bad, indeed that is impossible, but they will face scrutiny from the OBR and IMF and to be honest the 45 rate only raises 2 billion and why it was such a stupid tax to die on

    The windfall tax has already raised 8 billion this year and their enhanced one is estimated to add another 2 billion so a large amount of borrowing is needed

    The only other tax that may raise billions is a wealth tax but nobody has put forward a proposal on it so far
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,876

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Nah. To do otherwise would have been to walk straight into a really obvious Tory trap.

    In any case, there is nothing rightwing about putting money back into the pockets of working people.

    I’m glad Sir Keir Royale backed 19p.
    But it is borrowed as is NI and the argument is you cannot fund tax cuts on borrowing
    Isn't the 19p best thought of as a clumsy recycling of the money the government has gained by freezing tax thresholds?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
    I have voted and campaigned for the party throughout my adult life and will continue to do so despite my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology. I also have never campaigned for another party, Truss started off her political career as a card carrying member of and campaigner for the Liberal Democrats. So I don't need lectures about 'nominal Toryism' from supporters of her!
    I have voted and campaigned for the party through nearly 50 years. I have stopped doing so because of my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology.

    Not for me.
    Strikes me you could be doing a bit more to promote Tidal at the heart of Government, during an energy crisis with an administration that has publicly committed itself both to domestic power supply but still to Net Zero. Instead you're on here venting about how dreadful the PM is. Is this your normal way of getting things done?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,465

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
    I have voted and campaigned for the party throughout my adult life and will continue to do so despite my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology. I also have never campaigned for another party, Truss started off her political career as a card carrying member of and campaigner for the Liberal Democrats. So I don't need lectures about 'nominal Toryism' from supporters of her!
    I have voted and campaigned for the party through nearly 50 years. I have stopped doing so because of my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology.

    Not for me.
    If there isn't a line at which someone could possibly cease supporting/campaigning for a party, then they don't really have an ideological conviction at all, not to an ism of some kind.

    If something changes beyond all recognition but support remains unaffected, then the support was for the brand alone.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,571

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Truss will get Kwarteng to announce the U-turn, if it happens. Swiftly followed by his resignation.

    Then she can focus on energy bills and supporting Ukraine. She might even wear a new necklace.

    If she does not announce it on Wednesday in her speech, she will be in even deeper do-do
    If a 40% top rate of tax is good enough for Ireland, why is it unacceptable for the UK?
    It's not the rate, it's the timing, the optics and the context
    Look, I'd benefit massively (on my return to the UK) from the dropping of the tax rate.

    But I think it's madness to be cutting my taxes, while reducing benefits in real terms, during the middle of a cost of living crisis.

    If I was going to do something for higher earners, it would be getting rid of the ridiculous stuff around £100k with the removal of the tax free allowance, etc.
    Yes, I scratch my head over the top tax rate reduction, and ending the cap on bankers' bonuses. You do that sort of thing when the economy is doing fine.
    If I were Chancellor (swapping one 1994 Trinity alumni for another), I would have made a few changes:

    (1) I wouldn't have introduced an energy price cap costing 6.5% of GDP. Ultimately, that won't reduce energy demand as much as it should, because it is dulling the price signal. By contrast, I would have looked at direct support payments to families, that would have covered (on average) 70% of the increase in their bills. If they'd wanted to use that money to pay for energy they could; or they might decide instead to use it on insulation, solar panels, or jumpers. In this way, we'd spend less money, preserve the price signal, and cut gas electricity/demand by more, while avoiding too much pain.

    (2) I would not have gotten rid of the 45% rate of tax. Indeed, I think I might have increased it to 50%, but I would have raised the rate at which it applied to (say) incomes in excess of £250k.

    (3) I would have gotten rid of the removal of the tax free allowance, and all the distortion that causes at c. £100k. (Ditto childcare allowances, etc.)

    (4) I would have introduced much lower rates of stamp duty for anyone "trading down". We want to encourage old people in big, empty houses to move to smaller places, not make it extremely expensive.

    (5) I would equalise tax treatment of mortgage interest between corporate entities and individuals.

    YMMV
    With regard to (1) how would you have dealt with the wholesale collapse of SMEs, with most of our shops and hospitality industry going out of business because of the high energy costs?
    The household price cap solution cannot be used on business, for there is no cap for business - it actually has to be two different solutions, households and business.
    Agreed but Robert's proposals seem to do nothing to address the business issue.
    It’s up to RCS to speak about his own Business Support package, but what I said is true, if we were not wasting such colossal sums on the household package, that wasted money is in play to offer struggling businesses even more help.

    Obviously no pressure on RCS, but Kwarteng at least managed to cobble something together, but the proof of any energy package will be in the heating, and what we know about reaction to the household package, it was hated by those charities who know the struggling well, it just won’t help those in need enough and the current have a hell of a whack coming their way of this, whilst serious economists wince at how much money it wastes from the moment Labour first publicised the rotten idea.

    No. The same household bill freeze package doesn’t have to be means tested, the truth here it just doesn’t have to be that way of doing it at all!

    Think outside your box with the metres in it, by turning the single point Energy Price Cap into a variable price cap where the price per unit of energy used rises with usage. A sliding price cap means marginal user costs increase. RCS is right, it’s the people at the lower end who really need the assistance here, If a solution doesn’t have those most in need front and centre, then it’s not the right solution is it? We should be reducing energy bills for lower-income households in the country while higher earners, who consume more energy, bear a more commensurate share of the higher cost. More help to the the most in need, and a much cheaper solution overall.

    https://www.niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/A-Variable-Energy-Price-Cap.pdf
    The governments price freeze is wrong on two important counts, RCS flagged up both in one straightforward post, Liz Truss and Kier Starmer and Ed Davey (to be fair there is more than one idiot backing this) freezing energy bills plan detaches price signal mechanism from the purchase of energy, in effect locking in energy demand at its current level - Zero incentive to bring energy consumption down. And secondly the thru life costs of freezing energy bills is not known, as NigelB said we can’t know the costs of energy a year from now, but we know this scheme costs UK government around £100B for this winter alone, this government wants it right up to the next election so likely an unsustainable £200B+ depending how quickly energy comes down, but variable energy price cap doesn’t lock you into anything like that massive amount of borrowing now and tax and higher bills in future to pay off that scale of borrowing. Not using many words this article absolutely nails it.

    https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/economics/17487-switch-to-variable-energy-price-cap-could-solve-the-cost-of-living-crisis-and-save-the-treasury-billions-says-niesr
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 266
    With regard to the 'energy package', my own view is that we should have
    1. A proper public information campaign about reducing usage
    2. Cutting VAT on electricity and gas; at the moment, the higher prices are, the more the government takes
    3. Suspending the green levy (money down the drain)
    4. Focussing financial help on those in greatest need or most vulnerable, including those who through poverty are on 'pay as you go', which has a higher tariff.
    5. Freezing the standing charges...there is no reason for them to be raised

    Meanwhile, Scottish Power want to put up my direct debit, even though I am over £1900 in credit, equivalent to eight months elec and gas in my household
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,042

    I thought it was very apt when I heard Liz Truss liked doing Madonna on the karaoke. Politicians so often seem to want to re-live their youth.

    Immaterial Girl
    Not A Prayer.....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 10,452
    Cyclefree's analysis is spot on - and delivered with both barrels.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 4,121
    Truss had one good potential card to play. She is not a good communicator or orator, so the tactic had to be: “I know I’m not the smoothest but I can get things done, I know how government works, I will steady the ship.”

    That was the only way she was going to get a hearing from the GBP.

    Instead she has shown she is not able to get things done (any idea this mini budget is getting through the Commons in current form is for the birds), she doesn’t have a clear grasp on how government works and she’s spent her time in office poking holes in the ship.

    It’s hard to see how anyone could have done worse to be frank.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 7,876
    PeterM said:

    pigeon said:

    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Sean_F said:

    pigeon said:

    Someone has helpfully posted a clip from the interview that Conservative Chairman Jake Berry did with Sophy Ridge this morning, so I can quote him directly:

    People know that when their bills arrive, they can either cut their consumption or they can get higher salary or higher wages, go out there and get that new job. That's the approach the Government is taking. We are saying "Look, let's create growth so households can afford their bills" as well as the brilliant work we're doing on energy bills.

    So, the general message is that people who are on lower incomes should either freeze in Winter or find better paid work. Great. Firstly the UK 'jobs miracle' that Boris Johnson always used to go on about largely consists of minimum wage crap jobs, so how are all these people suddenly meant to find the kind of upper middle class employment that will still pay them just about enough to heat and eat properly? Secondly, a lot of those who are in full-time employment and yet already rationing fuel use and buying budget brands (or even visiting food banks) are the very same key workers that we were all entreated to praise, and engage in performative pot banging in honour of, only a couple of years ago. If all the chronically underpaid care home workers, nurses and so on who struggle with their bills tried to piss off to work in city financial institutions (or, for that matter, in Aldi) then we, as a nation, would be completely sunk.

    These are our rulers. Tone deaf, cruel and absolutely thick as mince.

    While I think Jake Berry is a tone deaf idiot, I think the misery porn can be overblown. Anyone in middle class employment lives very well.
    This evidently depends very much on your personal circumstances, and on exactly how high your earnings are. With the ridiculous state of rents, mortgages, childcare costs and petrol prices, a lot of really quite well paid couples would nonetheless have been in the just about managing category before the latest inflationary shock. We now have significant food price inflation, most pay settlements contracting in real terms, those nasty domestic energy bills, and very substantial increases in accommodation costs coming round the corner to knock an awful lot of people clear over the edge of the financial precipice. It's not going to be pretty.
    The FT majored heavily a fortnight ago, on the "deterioration" of median incomes over the past 22 years, when the actual data showed median household incomes rising from $30,000 to $44,000 in real terms over that period.
    Two questions immediately spring to mind. Firstly, how much of the reported real terms increase happened in the first eight years and how much in the subsequent period? Secondly, what was the increase in housing costs over the same period? I strongly suspect that figures banded about which purport to show levels of affluence in the likes of Slovenia and Poland about to overtake, or at least approach, those in the UK are rooted in the effects of Britain's system of investments-not-homes property speculation.

    An outright owner-occupier can still live very comfortably in this country off a modest income; mortgage or rent payers, not so much.
    If you live in say the north of england and are mortgage free a single person could live very comfortably on 25 grand a year
    Probably true further south as well.

    But to have paid of a mortgage on a forever home, you either need to be in at least your fifties and bought before the Blair house price boom or have had a hefty windfall.

    And there are the two nations separated by age again.

    This stuff matters, because the UK isn't as prosperous as we'd like, and we can't pay for the things we'd like without tax rates we don't.

    And it's tempting to blame Brussels, Immigrants, Greens or Davos for that, but I suspect the issue is decisions we have collectively taken, maybe without realising. I'm pretty sure that pumping so much money into hose prices is one of those.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,075

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Truss will get Kwarteng to announce the U-turn, if it happens. Swiftly followed by his resignation.

    Then she can focus on energy bills and supporting Ukraine. She might even wear a new necklace.

    If she does not announce it on Wednesday in her speech, she will be in even deeper do-do
    If a 40% top rate of tax is good enough for Ireland, why is it unacceptable for the UK?
    It's not the rate, it's the timing, the optics and the context
    Look, I'd benefit massively (on my return to the UK) from the dropping of the tax rate.

    But I think it's madness to be cutting my taxes, while reducing benefits in real terms, during the middle of a cost of living crisis.

    If I was going to do something for higher earners, it would be getting rid of the ridiculous stuff around £100k with the removal of the tax free allowance, etc.
    Yes, I scratch my head over the top tax rate reduction, and ending the cap on bankers' bonuses. You do that sort of thing when the economy is doing fine.
    If I were Chancellor (swapping one 1994 Trinity alumni for another), I would have made a few changes:

    (1) I wouldn't have introduced an energy price cap costing 6.5% of GDP. Ultimately, that won't reduce energy demand as much as it should, because it is dulling the price signal. By contrast, I would have looked at direct support payments to families, that would have covered (on average) 70% of the increase in their bills. If they'd wanted to use that money to pay for energy they could; or they might decide instead to use it on insulation, solar panels, or jumpers. In this way, we'd spend less money, preserve the price signal, and cut gas electricity/demand by more, while avoiding too much pain.

    (2) I would not have gotten rid of the 45% rate of tax. Indeed, I think I might have increased it to 50%, but I would have raised the rate at which it applied to (say) incomes in excess of £250k.

    (3) I would have gotten rid of the removal of the tax free allowance, and all the distortion that causes at c. £100k. (Ditto childcare allowances, etc.)

    (4) I would have introduced much lower rates of stamp duty for anyone "trading down". We want to encourage old people in big, empty houses to move to smaller places, not make it extremely expensive.

    (5) I would equalise tax treatment of mortgage interest between corporate entities and individuals.

    YMMV
    With regard to (1) how would you have dealt with the wholesale collapse of SMEs, with most of our shops and hospitality industry going out of business because of the high energy costs?
    The household price cap solution cannot be used on business, for there is no cap for business - it actually has to be two different solutions, households and business.
    Agreed but Robert's proposals seem to do nothing to address the business issue.
    It’s up to RCS to speak about his own Business Support package, but what I said is true, if we were not wasting such colossal sums on the household package, that wasted money is in play to offer struggling businesses even more help.

    Obviously no pressure on RCS, but Kwarteng at least managed to cobble something together, but the proof of any energy package will be in the heating, and what we know about reaction to the household package, it was hated by those charities who know the struggling well, it just won’t help those in need enough and the current have a hell of a whack coming their way of this, whilst serious economists wince at how much money it wastes from the moment Labour first publicised the rotten idea.

    No. The same household bill freeze package doesn’t have to be means tested, the truth here it just doesn’t have to be that way of doing it at all!

    Think outside your box with the metres in it, by turning the single point Energy Price Cap into a variable price cap where the price per unit of energy used rises with usage. A sliding price cap means marginal user costs increase. RCS is right, it’s the people at the lower end who really need the assistance here, If a solution doesn’t have those most in need front and centre, then it’s not the right solution is it? We should be reducing energy bills for lower-income households in the country while higher earners, who consume more energy, bear a more commensurate share of the higher cost. More help to the the most in need, and a much cheaper solution overall.

    https://www.niesr.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/A-Variable-Energy-Price-Cap.pdf
    The governments price freeze is wrong on two important counts, RCS flagged up both in one straightforward post, Liz Truss and Kier Starmer and Ed Davey (to be fair there is more than one idiot backing this) freezing energy bills plan detaches price signal mechanism from the purchase of energy, in effect locking in energy demand at its current level - Zero incentive to bring energy consumption down. And secondly the thru life costs of freezing energy bills is not known, as NigelB said we can’t know the costs of energy a year from now, but we know this scheme costs UK government around £100B for this winter alone, this government wants it right up to the next election so likely an unsustainable £200B+ depending how quickly energy comes down, but variable energy price cap doesn’t lock you into anything like that massive amount of borrowing now and tax and higher bills in future to pay off that scale of borrowing. Not using many words this article absolutely nails it.

    https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/economics/17487-switch-to-variable-energy-price-cap-could-solve-the-cost-of-living-crisis-and-save-the-treasury-billions-says-niesr
    You are arguing for means tested help which is understandable, but which those in power and including the opposition have rejected for expediency, but I agree is costing tens of billions more than a means tested approach
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600
    franklyn said:

    With regard to the 'energy package', my own view is that we should have
    1. A proper public information campaign about reducing usage
    2. Cutting VAT on electricity and gas; at the moment, the higher prices are, the more the government takes
    3. Suspending the green levy (money down the drain)
    4. Focussing financial help on those in greatest need or most vulnerable, including those who through poverty are on 'pay as you go', which has a higher tariff.
    5. Freezing the standing charges...there is no reason for them to be raised

    Meanwhile, Scottish Power want to put up my direct debit, even though I am over £1900 in credit, equivalent to eight months elec and gas in my household

    There has been a suggestion that under Boris's Brexit deal, we cannot actually change VAT. It does seem to have been oddly left out of all Truss's stimulus schemes. If true, it's a ticking time bomb. And something that could destroy any future chance of Boris returning to front line politics.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,154

    On a positive note, the thread header appears to be spelled correctly.

    On a less positive side, I would like Cyclefree to stretch herself next time, and not do a 'things are terrible and awful and shit, and everyone is stupid, and here's 7 bullet points about why and how.' thread header. A lot of people seem to use PB as therapy to cleanse them of their rage and negativity, but usually it's below the line. Maybe actually propose something positive that might make things better in a small way?

    Regarding economical growth, the header is wrong - going for growth was exactly what Sunak wasn't going to do; in common with the general Davos consensus, his prospectus was a swerve into austerity that held every prospect of not only bringing a recession, but a depression. We're lucky we've dodged that bullet. Growth itself is a rebellious choice these days, and God speed Truss for making it her choice.

    Here you are - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/05/01/thinking-the-unthinkable-hows-this-going-to-be-paid-for/

    Some proposals from May 2020 on how to pay for the spending we had of necessity incurred by then.

    I wonder what your responses were then to those proposals and what constructive proposals you made then or since.

    In fact since you seem to think that Truss's proposals are great please explain how they will work.

    I am quite worried because I think the position for pension funds, their companies and banks is probably more serious and likely to last longer than a few days. Understandably the authorities are not letting on. This is based on my experience - pretty close tho the heart of the action - back in 2008. And I have little confidence in the government having a clue as to what to do or even appreciating that there is a problem.

    I have something to say. It comes from a particular perspective, which may be of interest to some. It is certainly not a complete or the only perspective on what is happening. It is I would venture to suggest a touch more valuable than your Panglossian approach.

    I do find the spectacle of politics at the moment immensely funny - in a black humour sort of way. That is until I remember that it is damaging the prospects and hopes of my children. And that makes me angry. It is not therapy I want. But revenge on those who are damaging their future.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 988

    Truss had one good potential card to play. She is not a good communicator or orator, so the tactic had to be: “I know I’m not the smoothest but I can get things done, I know how government works, I will steady the ship.”

    That was the only way she was going to get a hearing from the GBP.

    Instead she has shown she is not able to get things done (any idea this mini budget is getting through the Commons in current form is for the birds), she doesn’t have a clear grasp on how government works and she’s spent her time in office poking holes in the ship.

    It’s hard to see how anyone could have done worse to be frank.

    Well lets hope at least some elements of it are voted down
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,103
    The paradox last week was that the Bank was proclaiming its intention of raising interest rates to counter inflation – ie a contractionary monetary policy – while having, with its much publicised intervention, to pump liquidity into the financial system – ie an easing of monetary policy – in the interest of restoring financial stability.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/02/liz-truss-and-kwasi-kwartengs-foolish-dash-for-growth-is-a-non-starter

    There's more to come me thinks on this crisis. BoE has only agreed QE for two weeks to try and stabilise pensions. Then what?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    edited October 2

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Not only that but Rachel Reeves confirmed the axeing of the NI which together is 20 billion of borrowing

    Furthermore this morning she announced Labour's support for the government's 2 year energy cap but could only quote on going enhanced windfall taxes as paying the costs of over 100 billion
    I suspect that Labour's strategy is to agree to everything the Tories say because, as an Opposition, nothing they say will ever be policy, but it takes away the Tories ability to point fingers at Labour policies and try to distract by saying "Look how awful Labour's policy is. Vote for us".

    When the election comes they can have an update/review and junk everything and have a fresh set of policies in the manifesto. The Tories will be so jaded from infighting and fending off inquiries and incensed members of the public that no one will ever listen to their attack lines by then. Their goose will be cooked and SKS will be reading the furnishing brochure for No.10
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 45,286

    I just find it so awful Truss has boxed herself in now with public spending cuts to welfare

    Good luck to them across the remaining days of the conference

    Labour have also boxed themselves in by supporting the income tax cut to 19p. I bet they wished they hadn't now.
    Not only that but Rachel Reeves confirmed the axeing of the NI which together is 20 billion of borrowing

    Furthermore this morning she announced Labour's support for the government's 2 year energy cap but could only quote on going enhanced windfall taxes as paying the costs of over 100 billion
    The difference is that Labour might well (will ?) introduce wealth taxes.
    You have to look at revenue as well as spending.
  • The paradox last week was that the Bank was proclaiming its intention of raising interest rates to counter inflation – ie a contractionary monetary policy – while having, with its much publicised intervention, to pump liquidity into the financial system – ie an easing of monetary policy – in the interest of restoring financial stability.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/02/liz-truss-and-kwasi-kwartengs-foolish-dash-for-growth-is-a-non-starter

    There's more to come me thinks on this crisis. BoE has only agreed QE for two weeks to try and stabilise pensions. Then what?

    What is likely is that the Fed, post-the mid-terms, starts to ease off when it comes to interest rate increases. Company results this week have been poor and there are clear signs the consumer is coming under more and more pressure. The post @williamglenn linked to is also instructive: the Fed is becoming increasingly worried about the ripple effect from the sharp increases in interest rates so quickly.

    My guess is we see reversal of some of these rises before year end.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,600

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    You should join. Perfect home for a nominal Tory who doesn't really have any political convictions beyond glory seeking.
    I have voted and campaigned for the party throughout my adult life and will continue to do so despite my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology. I also have never campaigned for another party, Truss started off her political career as a card carrying member of and campaigner for the Liberal Democrats. So I don't need lectures about 'nominal Toryism' from supporters of her!
    I have voted and campaigned for the party through nearly 50 years. I have stopped doing so because of my reservations about Truss and her libertarian ideology.

    Not for me.
    Strikes me you could be doing a bit more to promote Tidal at the heart of Government, during an energy crisis with an administration that has publicly committed itself both to domestic power supply but still to Net Zero. Instead you're on here venting about how dreadful the PM is. Is this your normal way of getting things done?
    Pah! I will one day share with the class the letter I wrote to Kwasi Kwarteng making the case for tidal. Following his invitation to do so.

    Hand delivered to him by Sir Patrick McLoughlin.

    Never even had the courtesy of a response.

    So I will wait until the **** has been moved on.

    I'm not going to speak for Kwarteng because I've never rated him, though I'll say two things, firstly, he's not going to be moved on, as politically, he's been so criticised it's now impossible for Truss to move him on without seeming disastrously weak. Secondly, if it was given to him in his BEIS days, he's now part of a very different Government with a very different leader. See also fracking which he poopoohed but is now back and there's duck all he can do about it.

    You need to get it in front of Truss. She needs good news stories and something to burnish her eco-credentials as she moves forward with oil and gas.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    SKS is also a tribute act without the charisma ideas or political nous and is still 20pts ahead

    Better than Corbyns Tony Benn tribune act that put us 20pts behind.
    Labour under Starmer is now the party of the centre as it was under Blair, it has left Corbyn hard left ideology behind.

    It is the Tories who are now putting ideology first, Truss their most hard right leader, especially on economics, since IDS
    Have you thought what you may turn your hand to when the conservatives are rarer then hens teeth ?
    I will just be a rare hens tooth for a few years
    The only Conservative in the village? :wink:
This discussion has been closed.