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The Cost of Lizzing Crisis [1] – politicalbetting.com

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Cicero said:

    Part of the problem is that there has been no moral recovery from Stalin, who really was just as evil as Hitler.

    Instead of atoning for the crimes of Stalinism and Communism, Putin has mostly repeated those crimes. This is why I use the word "moral" crisis. There has been no truth and reconciliation, but instead a glorification of the KGB and other criminals. Unless this is ended, Russia can never recover. I have many Russophone friends who now refuse to engage with any Russian culture because whatever the glories of Bulgakov, Tshaikovsky etc, everything is overlaid with the continuing brutality of thugs like Stalin, Beria and indeed Putin. As one said, who cares about the ballet when they are rebuilding the GULAG? The collapse of Russian soft power is just as remarkable as any other part of this Russian disaster.
    Today's Russia - and its actions - are yet another warning of the dangers of Communism. I am not claiming that the current Russian government is Communist - far from - but the leaders and apparatchiks were all born and raised in the Communist system. A failed system that routinely lied to its citizens.

    Putin's Russia takes all those ideas and runs with them. As Soviet Russia lied and mistreated its citizens, so does Putin's Russia. As the leaders and politburo members were relatively rich (and well fed!) in the Communist era, so are Putin and his cronies. The people don't matter; what matters is power.

    Communism is very little different to fascism. It is fascism with a 'friendly' face; a system that has failed every time it has been tried, to the cost of millions of lives.

    I despise fascists. I despise Communists in exactly the same manner. There's no difference between the end results of both systems: chaos, misery and death.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281



    To be fair there are respected doctors like Dr Aseem Malhotra now coming out saying the vax is harmful

    https://twitter.com/DrAseemMalhotra/status/1574986541302104065?s=20&t=HBbW0LFrvxGdVCWUzy4Tgw

    The Pfizer mRNA to be precise.

    Apropos of nothing, I ‘enjoyed’ my second covid booster on Thursday. I had a pretty intense reaction (flu like fever etc) to my fist booster (Pfizer, after 2x AZ). Had the new moderna mRNA this time and again nasty fever for 36 hours. Not fun.
    But harmful? Not a lot of evidence for that.
    I’ll get mine too when offered. The NHS sent me a text saying “you’re due your Autumn booster” but the online form said I’m not….emailed the GP to see if they know.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888

    Also we're back to a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, at least as far as the Russian people goes. While lots of Russians are undertandably reluctant to meet a sordid death in a Ukrainian sunflower field and there are pockets of protest, I can't (admittedly from a great and poorly informed distance) really discern any strong distaste for Putin or the nationalist project.
    " I can't (admittedly from a great and poorly informed distance) really discern any strong distaste for Putin or the nationalist project."

    I'd argue you wouldn't have detected any strong distaste against the Romanian regime before 1989 - the media was controlled too strongly for 'distaste' to leak out - and especially with the knowledge that showing distaste might prove detrimental to your wellbeing.

    Yet Ceaușescu fell in a ridiculously short period in late 1989.

    The Internet 'helps' information get out, but we only see a tiny proportion of the feeling - and that's mostly those Russians who speak in English, and therefore somewhat western-leaning. I'd like to think (though cannot be sure) that if I was a Russian today, I'd be furious with Putin, but also very quiescent.

    Then again, if I was Russian, I wouldn't be me.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    ydoethur said:

    So?
    You might like to try the diet you might feel better
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274
    edited October 2022

    The Pfizer mRNA to be precise.
    Apropos of nothing, I ‘enjoyed’ my second covid booster on Thursday. I had a pretty intense reaction (flu like fever etc) to my fist booster (Pfizer, after 2x AZ). Had the new moderna mRNA this time and again nasty fever for 36 hours. Not fun.
    But harmful? Not a lot of evidence for that.
    I’ll get mine too when offered. The NHS sent me a text saying “you’re due your Autumn booster” but the online form said I’m not….emailed the GP to see if they know.


    Mrs C and I had our flu vaccinations and autumn Covid 10 days ago. I was talking to the senior partner at our practice about my current problems and she remarked that they had some Corvid vaccine in and "would I like it it ". So we had it done.
    I'm fine, as usual with these things, but my wife has developed a cold. I don't think that's related to the Covid vaccination!
  • Cicero said:

    The funereal faces in the Kremlin last night showed that the regime knows the game is up. The denouncing of the UN Charter (who signed up for these rules? asked Putin: all members of the UN, actually Vlad), was sinister, but in a pathetic, Dr. Evil, kind of way.

    He wasn't referring to the UN charter.

    Nor am I sure about the interpretation of the solemn faces as indicating a shared belief that Putin is screwing everything up. They were consistent with a shared expectation that the war will get a lot worse. No cause for jubilation there.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,269

    Today's Russia - and its actions - are yet another warning of the dangers of Communism. I am not claiming that the current Russian government is Communist - far from - but the leaders and apparatchiks were all born and raised in the Communist system. A failed system that routinely lied to its citizens.

    Putin's Russia takes all those ideas and runs with them. As Soviet Russia lied and mistreated its citizens, so does Putin's Russia. As the leaders and politburo members were relatively rich (and well fed!) in the Communist era, so are Putin and his cronies. The people don't matter; what matters is power.

    Communism is very little different to fascism. It is fascism with a 'friendly' face; a system that has failed every time it has been tried, to the cost of millions of lives.

    I despise fascists. I despise Communists in exactly the same manner. There's no difference between the end results of both systems: chaos, misery and death.
    I agree with a lot of what you say but a corollary of your equating fascism and communism is that we shouldn't have sided with the USSR to defeat the Nazis and I think that is incorrect. Naziism was on a different plane of evil. All totalitarian systems become evil through implementation but the Nazis' ideas about racial supiority made them evil in intent.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288
    Thank you @POTUSfor signing into law $12.35 bln in supplemental support for 🇺🇦. The day before, the bill was backed by both houses of 🇺🇸 Congress. We appreciate this powerful act of solidarity of the 🇺🇸 people with 🇺🇦. And the bicameral and bipartisan support of our state. 1/2
    https://mobile.twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1576118391387357184
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,100

    I’ll get mine too when offered. The NHS sent me a text saying “you’re due your Autumn booster” but the online form said I’m not….emailed the GP to see if they know.
    Same here. I will probably end up having to call the surgery even though they say 'please don't call us'.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    He wasn't referring to the UN charter.

    Nor am I sure about the interpretation of the solemn faces as indicating a shared belief that Putin is screwing everything up. They were consistent with a shared expectation that the war will get a lot worse. No cause for jubilation there.
    Putin may have told them to look miserable as part of his psychological warfare operation
  • For me I reckon an 100 seat Labour majority doesn't seem out of the question.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    Same here. I will probably end up having to call the surgery even though they say 'please don't call us'.
    Well, I am currently boosting my immunity the other way :D

    I appear to be over it all now. Made chicken and chips for dinner last night but just to be safe I have also made a large amount of HYFUD broth in the slow cooker overnight, lunch will be Cockaleekie with bread and butter. Yummy!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712

    Same here. I will probably end up having to call the surgery even though they say 'please don't call us'.
    Had my moderna shot on Thursday afternoon. 24 hours later got hit by a dreadful feeling of just feeling shit and under the weather. Lasted through the night and only just starting to feel normal this late morning. Same thing happened with pfizer last autumn.

    Not pleasant, but I keep telling myself it is better than long covid.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888

    I agree with a lot of what you say but a corollary of your equating fascism and communism is that we shouldn't have sided with the USSR to defeat the Nazis and I think that is incorrect. Naziism was on a different plane of evil. All totalitarian systems become evil through implementation but the Nazis' ideas about racial supiority made them evil in intent.
    I'm not saying that. In 1939-1945 Germany was the expansionist threat. The sad thing is that after the war, we let millions of good people in eastern European countries come under Stalin's evil thumb. That might have been unavoidable, though.

    I'm also far from sure that Putin's doggerel about Russian superiority and homelands isn't just about some weird idea of Slavic superiority - although quietly said, given Russia's diverse ethnic makeup. But it's odd how the Slavic parts of the country are the richest, whilst those from the provinces are cannon-fodder who think toilets and washing machines are novelties.

    I'm unsure the victims of the purges and the Holodomor would agree that Nazism was a different plane of evil.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302

    Same here. I will probably end up having to call the surgery even though they say 'please don't call us'.
    Good for you...no need to tell everyone though...my dad doesnt broadcast to the world every time he has his flu jab
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,100

    That's not the case either. The Tories have been in power for too long. This is the inevitable consequence of being in power and running outbof ideas . The tax cuts are meaningless and will do sfa. The 50 billion cost which probably isn't true spooked the markets. The media, post lying Boris have been waiting to bring the Tories down.
    Frankly it makes no odds to me whether it's Labour or Tories in power, I am In the same boat as many people. The Tories are talking about screwing pensioners. Frankly I am likely to be better off under Labour ...
    Fair enough.

    The only part I disagree with is "The media, post lying Boris have been waiting to bring the Tories down." Some parts do and always have done but the DM and Express, and to a lesser extent the Telegraph are still holding out for a Tory recovery.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Farooq said:

    You're right, of course, to despise both. But don't pretend that they are similar. Yes, you can find similarities but you can find similarities too with liberal democracies if that is your wont.
    In terms of human misery, of course you don't care whether you're being wiped out by fascists or communists, but the reason the distinction matters and matters profoundly is because they both need to be defeated and defeating them requires different stances. Fascism and communism have different models of legitimacy and it's by targeting these foundations that you bring them down.
    They are similar IMO, although your point that the differences matter when combatting them is correct.

    My point was that the 'end results' of the system are the same. Yet for some reason Communism is seen as being 'acceptable' in many circles.

    It shouldn't be.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,322
    Sean_F said:

    One techie friend of mine has always said that it's a feature, not a bug, of social media, that it generates hate.

    One (and I have been guilty of this, and try to correct it) can end up saying things one would never dream of saying to another person in real life, and never dream of writing, if putting pen to paper.
    As usual a spot on post @Sean_F. I am the same.

    In my last (of many) discussions with @HYUFD I started to get a bit tetchy (as I have done many times before) and realised I was out of order and immediately apologised (twice). The discussion was a lot better as a consequence even though we disagreed.

    It is difficult sometimes though with some posters as you will see from my reaction to the negativity of a particular poster.

    We can be polite. It will get heated, but we can pull back from that, or if we fail, apologise after.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,978

    For me I reckon an 100 seat Labour majority doesn't seem out of the question.

    You can.post a varuant that as the posts go up and down.at the momentnits a meaningless post.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712
    I see we are at the dressing up in working people's clothes and making regional visits with closely controlled video snippets stage of the premiership.

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,978
    edited October 2022

    Fair enough.

    The only part I disagree with is "The media, post lying Boris have been waiting to bring the Tories down." Some parts do and always have done but the DM and Express, and to a lesser extent the Telegraph are still holding out for a Tory recovery.
    The Daily Express is not a newspaper imho so should be ignored, its vintentbus for those if weajend brains. , not as I understand it The Mail is a hate filled rag nit fitvyo venon the stands . Abd the Telegraph is owned by the Barclay
    Unsurprising that its the three you mention.
    They can hold out but it won't come unless Truss's plan has a miraculous recovery linked yo it.
  • " I can't (admittedly from a great and poorly informed distance) really discern any strong distaste for Putin or the nationalist project."

    I'd argue you wouldn't have detected any strong distaste against the Romanian regime before 1989 - the media was controlled too strongly for 'distaste' to leak out - and especially with the knowledge that showing distaste might prove detrimental to your wellbeing.

    Yet Ceaușescu fell in a ridiculously short period in late 1989.

    The Internet 'helps' information get out, but we only see a tiny proportion of the feeling - and that's mostly those Russians who speak in English, and therefore somewhat western-leaning. I'd like to think (though cannot be sure) that if I was a Russian today, I'd be furious with Putin, but also very quiescent.

    Then again, if I was Russian, I wouldn't be me.
    All we're both doing is drawing conclusions from a similarly poorly informed distance.
    Romania was just one crumbling foundation of the Soviet bloc, 2022 Russia is a special case. The whole rotten structure may come crashing down with one kick of the door as a famous person once incorrectly said, but authoritarian Russia has a strong track record of recovering and reasserting itself.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,170



    The Internet 'helps' information get out, but we only see a tiny proportion of the feeling - and that's mostly those Russians who speak in English, and therefore somewhat western-leaning. I'd like to think (though cannot be sure) that if I was a Russian today, I'd be furious with Putin, but also very quiescent.

    Then again, if I was Russian, I wouldn't be me.

    Based on what I see on my VK feed... there is a sullen and not very vocal anti-Putin group. However, at least 50% of this sentiment comes from the Nationalist Right who think shoeing the k*******s is a terrific idea but that it's just being executed incompetently with insufficient brutality.

    There are also a significant group of reluctant Putinists who generally detest the Thieving Dwarf of German extraction but will rally behind him because they've been told the SMO is an existential struggle of Russia vs NATO. Which, in a sense, it now is.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192

    I see we are at the dressing up in working people's clothes and making regional visits with closely controlled video snippets stage of the premiership.

    Are we? I must have missed that.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,705

    The Pfizer mRNA to be precise.
    Apropos of nothing, I ‘enjoyed’ my second covid booster on Thursday. I had a pretty intense reaction (flu like fever etc) to my fist booster (Pfizer, after 2x AZ). Had the new moderna mRNA this time and again nasty fever for 36 hours. Not fun.
    But harmful? Not a lot of evidence for that.
    I’ll get mine too when offered. The NHS sent me a text saying “you’re due your Autumn booster” but the online form said I’m not….emailed the GP to see if they know.


    How long until the effect of a booster wanes?
    I would like mine to be giving a good strong resistance in December January. When is the ideal time to be boosted?
    I've had 2 AZ and 0.5 Moderna booster, not to mention Covid in December '21
  • I work for the people behind the Illuminati, who are behind the Zeta Reticulans, who in turn are in charge of the Lizard Men.

    The Chief Lizard frequently apologises about WWI and 2.

    It is a complicated story, involving a junior lizard, a time machine and a meeting a mad bloke eating oysters on his own at a second rate hotel. And a Moroccan black cab driver in London.
    Is that a genuine account for James Delingpole? Never heard of a Knight Commander of the Garter before. If it is genuine, why does he call himself that? Some kind of Spectator joke?

    Also what does "BA" stand for?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Farooq said:

    HYUFD broth? Did you render PB's favourite protofascist councillor down to stock?
    Back before the vaccines, a certain poster assured PB of the efficacy of broth as a roboratrive against the plague :wink:
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,714
    edited October 2022

    I don't really understand the Tories' strategy. Most people I know who are benefiting from the tax cut think it's stupid and don't want the money. How they can justify it when public services are falling apart and so many people are struggling is mystifying. The only explanation is that they are actually utter psychopaths. I think they have fundamentally misread the British character.
    And I don't understand why you don't understand it. Giving tax cuts to the already wealthy. Giving benefit cuts to scroungers. Cutting the public sector to the bone until it's ripe for privatisation. Lining further the pockets of the rich by cutting corporation tax. Encouraging greed. Increasing inequality of wealth and income. Levelling up my arse.

    That's what Tories do, isn't it? That's why I'm not one.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,888
    Dura_Ace said:

    Based on what I see on my VK feed... there is a sullen and not very vocal anti-Putin group. However, at least 50% of this sentiment comes from the Nationalist Right who think shoeing the k*******s is a terrific idea but that it's just being executed incompetently with insufficient brutality.

    There are also a significant group of reluctant Putinists who generally detest the Thieving Dwarf of German extraction but will rally behind him because they've been told the SMO is an existential struggle of Russia vs NATO. Which, in a sense, it now is.
    The problem is that even nowadays, perhaps less than 10% are actually 'vocal'. It's like trying to discern political sentiment off PB - and we see how often we've got it wrong. To make matters worse, we're pretty much free to sat what we want on here, and the biggest threat is the ban hammer (unless we go totally off-reservation and call **** ******* an utter ****** who ***** ***** and *****. Russians do not feel that freedom.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712
    It's the hope that kills you...


    Most Americans say that former President Trump should not be allowed to serve another term in the White House in the near future, according to a new Yahoo News-YouGov poll.

    With several investigations into Trump’s conduct ramping up, 51 percent of registered voters say that the allegations of wrongdoing are enough to preclude the former president from launching another campaign.


    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3669277-most-registered-voters-say-trump-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-serve-a-second-term-says-new-poll/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712
    Alistair said:
    Where are the Russians? Surrounded in the centre of town?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,288

    Had my moderna shot on Thursday afternoon. 24 hours later got hit by a dreadful feeling of just feeling shit and under the weather. Lasted through the night and only just starting to feel normal this late morning. Same thing happened with pfizer last autumn.

    Not pleasant, but I keep telling myself it is better than long covid.
    Well vaccines are supposed to prompt an immune response. The latter is what makes you feel shit.

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,170

    The problem is that even nowadays, perhaps less than 10% are actually 'vocal'. It's like trying to discern political sentiment off PB - and we see how often we've got it wrong. To make matters worse, we're pretty much free to sat what we want on here, and the biggest threat is the ban hammer (unless we go totally off-reservation and call **** ******* an utter ****** who ***** ***** and *****. Russians do not feel that freedom.
    You can say what the fuck you want on VK and Telegram without OMON coming round to kick the door of your khrushchoba in. If you share something from VoA, BBC, etc. it'll get taken down pretty quickly. Telegram don't give a toss and you can do what you want on that. Even though they have a no violence rule, it's not really enforced.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712
    Nigelb said:

    Well vaccines are supposed to prompt an immune response. The latter is what makes you feel shit.

    Yeh, it's a good sign I suppose. Shows something happened when it went in.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,257
    Cicero said:

    Part of the problem is that there has been no moral recovery from Stalin, who really was just as evil as Hitler.

    Instead of atoning for the crimes of Stalinism and Communism, Putin has mostly repeated those crimes. This is why I use the word "moral" crisis. There has been no truth and reconciliation, but instead a glorification of the KGB and other criminals. Unless this is ended, Russia can never recover. I have many Russophone friends who now refuse to engage with any Russian culture because whatever the glories of Bulgakov, Tshaikovsky etc, everything is overlaid with the continuing brutality of thugs like Stalin, Beria and indeed Putin. As one said, who cares about the ballet when they are rebuilding the GULAG? The collapse of Russian soft power is just as remarkable as any other part of this Russian disaster.
    The Soviet Union came out of WWII with a huge amount of international goodwill, which completely obscured the crimes of the 1930's. The onset of the Cold War diminished, but certainly did not destroy, that goodwill, particularly as the Soviets could claim to be anti-colonialists, and the West really did throw its weight behind some ghastly leaders in the Third World.

    Obviously, where you are based, and in Eastern Europe generally, people have never had warm feelings towards the Soviet Union, given the dreadful treatment they received at its hands. It's remarkable really, how little venegeance was taken against Soviet collaborators.
  • And I don't understand why you don't understand it. Giving tax cuts to the already wealthy. Giving benefit cuts to scroungers. Cutting the public sector to the bone until it's ripe for privatisation. Lining further the pockets of the rich by cutting corporation tax. Encouraging greed.

    That's what Tories do, isn't it? That's why I'm not one.
    Except... it didn't used to be that way. Even Thatcher didn't entirely believe it- for her, the point of the Good Samaritan was that he had the money to give away, but that was because the assumption that the wealthy should be generous was taken as read. Dave's Big Society, TMay's JAMs, Boris's Levelling Up... they weren't entirely cant. In part, yes, but not entirely. There was at least an ackowledgement that the pile had real people at the bottom of it.

    Yes, Conservatives have always gone for spending and taxing less, and (let's be honest) sweating human and material resources more than is healthy in the long term.

    But not like this.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,257

    It's the hope that kills you...


    Most Americans say that former President Trump should not be allowed to serve another term in the White House in the near future, according to a new Yahoo News-YouGov poll.

    With several investigations into Trump’s conduct ramping up, 51 percent of registered voters say that the allegations of wrongdoing are enough to preclude the former president from launching another campaign.


    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3669277-most-registered-voters-say-trump-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-serve-a-second-term-says-new-poll/

    And, yet, I'd put his chances of winning at about 40%, were an election held today.

    I suspect the hardline Republicans would far rather have someone like De Santis, who is a clever, competent, version of Trump.
  • Carnyx said:

    Just checked my memory and the film did indeed come out in 1993 by when feathers in at least some theropods (and obviously Archaeopteryx) were very much accepted. So a timelag of maybe a decade or so after Bakker's book (1975?) and the ensuing debates. Though it was also about that time (early 1990s) that the first Liaoning fossils were being discovered to reinforce the point re feathers in dinos, and in due course to extend it considerably. Very nice online talk here by Prof Mike Benton btw.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9NMQf_RfZw
    Bakker is one of my scientific heroes. Challenged conventional orthodoxy in such a way that it was very difficult to argue against him. Proper science.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    edited October 2022
    Farooq said:

    I sincerely hope it works for you, although it's a disappointingly boring explanation given the possibilities.
    The vaccines and boosters worked. I thought I had a cold and continued doing various jobs (and commenting on PB as well) without realising what I had. It was only when I found an old test kit that was due to expire in Apr 2023 that I decided to test myself. I laughed out loud when it was positive because by then I was over my "cold"

    The broth is just because it is autumn and I like the recipe :smile:
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119

    Where are the Russians? Surrounded in the centre of town?
    Sounds like many died attempting to escape the encirclement to Kreminna during the night. If there were 5,000 surrounded in Lyman yesterday, there are fewer today.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,257

    Is that a genuine account for James Delingpole? Never heard of a Knight Commander of the Garter before. If it is genuine, why does he call himself that? Some kind of Spectator joke?

    Also what does "BA" stand for?
    Yes, I think it is a genuine account. Whether it's deliberate irony or not, I don't know.

    But, I think we can guess who this diabolically cunning race are, who were responsible for both world wars, along with the next one.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,274
    Sean_F said:

    The Soviet Union came out of WWII with a huge amount of international goodwill, which completely obscured the crimes of the 1930's. The onset of the Cold War diminished, but certainly did not destroy, that goodwill, particularly as the Soviets could claim to be anti-colonialists, and the West really did throw its weight behind some ghastly leaders in the Third World.

    Obviously, where you are based, and in Eastern Europe generally, people have never had warm feelings towards the Soviet Union, given the dreadful treatment they received at its hands. It's remarkable really, how little venegeance was taken against Soviet collaborators.
    The first paragraph is quite right; and it wasn't only goodwill earned by the Soviet union, but a recognition that governments in the 30s had made some horrendous mistakes.
    At least that's what many of the then older generation said.

    I'm not quite sure that the second paragraph is as correct as the first; there appears to be, or to have been, some amount of support among the older generation for the Communist regimes because they compared well, in many respects, with what had gone before.
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Sean_F said:

    Yes, I think it is a genuine account. Whether it's deliberate irony or not, I don't know.

    But, I think we can guess who this diabolically cunning race are, who were responsible for both world wars, along with the next one.
    It is Delingpole. He called the vaccine the clot shot on gb news. He has some "interesting" views to say the least
  • Well, that's that settled, the annexation is definitely illegal.


  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,108
    Carnyx said:

    Just checked my memory and the film did indeed come out in 1993 by when feathers in at least some theropods (and obviously Archaeopteryx) were very much accepted. So a timelag of maybe a decade or so after Bakker's book (1975?) and the ensuing debates. Though it was also about that time (early 1990s) that the first Liaoning fossils were being discovered to reinforce the point re feathers in dinos, and in due course to extend it considerably. Very nice online talk here by Prof Mike Benton btw.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9NMQf_RfZw
    I have the book the talk is promoting. Good stuff.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,294

    Sounds like many died attempting to escape the encirclement to Kreminna during the night. If there were 5,000 surrounded in Lyman yesterday, there are fewer today.
    I think it was an absolute bloodbath last night.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,546

    In that particular comment I was just pointing out that Scott has a different view to the ratings agencies.

    On the budget, I would still defend it in a devil's advocate way. It was obviously politically inept to do something that was seen as a giveaway to the rich at this time, but I think that returning to a simpler two-tier
    income tax system is a good thing.
    @williamglenn just catching up, thanks for the reply

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,257

    The first paragraph is quite right; and it wasn't only goodwill earned by the Soviet union, but a recognition that governments in the 30s had made some horrendous mistakes.
    At least that's what many of the then older generation said.

    I'm not quite sure that the second paragraph is as correct as the first; there appears to be, or to have been, some amount of support among the older generation for the Communist regimes because they compared well, in many respects, with what had gone before.
    Not in the Baltic States or Czechoslovkia. These were countries as prosperous as the United Kingdom, pre WWII. Breaking up great estates might have generated some initial goodwill in other parts of Eastern Europe.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,108

    More importantly, Tritium has a short half-life of about 12 years. I wonder how good the replenishment schedules are?
    To get the tritium to fuse, the first stage in a thermonuclear weapon is a fission explosion. H-bombs work by having an A-bomb compress the tritium enough for it to fuse. Thus, even if the tritium is missing, you get an atom bomb going off.

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,021

    For me I reckon an 100 seat Labour majority doesn't seem out of the question.

    If the election were this week you are probably right. But you are getting way ahead of yourself. Truss could double down and the Tories have a 1997-style melt down. On the other hand they could change leader early next year, steady the ship, and we end up with NOM.

    Given the Tories track record since 2019 they deserve a good kicking but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get it.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277

    It's the hope that kills you...


    Most Americans say that former President Trump should not be allowed to serve another term in the White House in the near future, according to a new Yahoo News-YouGov poll.

    With several investigations into Trump’s conduct ramping up, 51 percent of registered voters say that the allegations of wrongdoing are enough to preclude the former president from launching another campaign.


    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3669277-most-registered-voters-say-trump-shouldnt-be-allowed-to-serve-a-second-term-says-new-poll/

    Only 51% . In any sane country that should be much higher .
  • sbjme19sbjme19 Posts: 194
    I see the odious Clarke has been shooting his mouth "the state's far too big and too much welfare, it makes it harder for us to give tax cuts to the rich". Who he? A long streak of piss risen without trace, the North East's answer to Mogg
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,867
    edited October 2022
    PeterM said:

    You might like to try the diet you might feel better
    Or alternatively, rather than follow diets that actual scientists doing proper research can find no evidence of efficacy for, you could exercise more and eat a bit less? Then you might find there are other ways of staying healthy...and you might feel better.

    You might even feel as healthy as I do...
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,546

    Manifestos are not binding. We elect representatives to use their best judgement.

    The only places where direct democratic consent is needed is where they want to change the rules of the game - voting systems, Scottish independence, Brexit etc



    @squareroot2 @StillWaters thanks for the considered replies ( just catching up, family stuff took up the morning)

    What you say makes sense, is important, and in a technical/legal sense you’re right.

    Added to that, I can see the argument that, post covid and in the midst of Ukraine, following a manifesto written pre- that is bonkers.

    But I still think there was a spirit or an ethos to the Conservative party in 2019 (broadly, we are out to make the country more equal, we believe our way is better than Labour’s). Now, the message explicitly is, levelling up is not the thing, growth however achieved is the thing.

    Plus the tweet Scott copied earlier:

    Simon Clarke is flagging return to austerity in @thetimes interview. But where’s the mandate?

    Boris Johnson pledged govt would "not go back to the austerity of 10 years ago" in June 2020.

    Truss said in July 2022: “I’m very clear I’m not planning public spending reductions”.

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1576120213069656065/photo/1

    So whilst I agree that our democratic system allows eg a change in leader and some policies between elections (and this is in fact essential), the extent of the change, and the fact that it directly contradicts what (some) people thought they were voting for, pushes this argument beyond breaking point. I don’t think we’re dealing in absolutes here.

    Having said all of that, I do now see why you took issue with the ‘absolutely no democratic consent’ bit. There clearly is, in at least a technical sense, democratic consent. I reckon you’d be howling if it was Labour pivoting towards zealotry in this way, though (as, I hope, would I!)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,031
    edited October 2022
    Russian sources saying the Ukrainians are already moving through the main streets of Lyman, checking IDs for Russian troops.

    https://twitter.com/INTobservers/status/1576167196090245120
  • sbjme19 said:

    I see the odious Clarke has been shooting his mouth "the state's far too big and too much welfare, it makes it harder for us to give tax cuts to the rich". Who he? A long streak of piss risen without trace, the North East's answer to Mogg

    He was only promoted by Boris so he could stand next to Sunak and make Sunak look even smaller. How seriously this lot take governing the country.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,031

    It’s a PB tradition for posters to tell everyone when they’ve had a COVID jab. It goes down well, largely because it annoys the anti-vaxxers.
    Think its origins were in seeing how quickly the age groups were getting called, in the early days of the vaccine. Not so interesting now.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,867
    PeterM said:
    Who has annexed Putin and why would they want him?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,867
    edited October 2022
    Cicero said:

    I can think of no country that welcomed Communism. Many, including the Baltic and Ukraine, fought guerilla wars for nearly a decade after the end of WWII, Romania and Bulgaria also had resistance movements, like the Bulgarian Goryani.

    There were rebellions in Poland: 1956, 1970, 1980, Hungary: 1956, East Germany: 1953, Czechoslovakia: 1953 and 1968, there were resistance movements: Solidarnosc, KOR, the Petofi circles, Charter 77, Ekoglasnost.

    There was no legitimacy to the "Peoples Republics" or the SSRs and as soon as the guns were put away, the system collapsed.
    Chile and Yugoslavia both legally elected Communist governments, in 1970 and 1945 respectively.

    Venezuela could perhaps be added to that list, although whether Chavez was a communist, socialist, or just a narcissist remains open to question.

    Edit - also, Russia *would* have elected a Communist government in 1917, but for the fact Lenin and Trotsky decided the Socialist Revolutionaries were the wrong sort of Communists.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824

    Think its origins were in seeing how quickly the age groups were getting called, in the early days of the vaccine. Not so interesting now.
    Also, in the early days, the differing reactions, from almost non-existent to a couple of days floored, may have played a part in convincing some to get it done.
    I was certainly interested in knowing what I might expect.
  • Except... it didn't used to be that way. Even Thatcher didn't entirely believe it- for her, the point of the Good Samaritan was that he had the money to give away, but that was because the assumption that the wealthy should be generous was taken as read. Dave's Big Society, TMay's JAMs, Boris's Levelling Up... they weren't entirely cant. In part, yes, but not entirely. There was at least an ackowledgement that the pile had real people at the bottom of it.

    Yes, Conservatives have always gone for spending and taxing less, and (let's be honest) sweating human and material resources more than is healthy in the long term.

    But not like this.
    Deeply rooted in the mindset of Truss and co. is the idea that governmental influence over the individual - be it the welfare system giving them money they wouldn't otherwise have, or the NHS deciding what happens to their bodies - is in itself deeply immoral. Moreover, it will always be harmful as governments are inherently inefficient and incompetent. Eradicate the governmental stuff and, after some initial jolts, the individual will shine and prosper as never before.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,471
    PeterM said:
    They look enthusiastic, and of fighting age. Mobilise them and send them to the front line.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    ydoethur said:

    Chile and Yugoslavia both legally elected Communist governments, in 1970 and 1945 respectively.

    Venezuela could perhaps be added to that list, although whether Chavez was a communist, socialist, or just a narcissist remains open to question.

    Edit - also, Russia *would* have elected a Communist government in 1917, but for the fact Lenin and Trotsky decided the Socialist Revolutionaries were the wrong sort of Communists.
    Chile is a bit of a stretch.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,957
    PeterM said:
    Enormous crowds there.

    But obviously behind the camera.
  • John McDonnell giving some sound advice on how to get the respect of the markets:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/01/corbyn-mcdonnell-crash-the-pound-truss-free-market
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,867
    dixiedean said:

    Chile is a bit of a stretch.
    Well, Pincochet certainly thought so, but I am surprised to learn you would side with him :smile:

    Hope you are having a slightly easier time at your place (although that's hope over experience in the current mess).
  • PeterMPeterM Posts: 302
    Trump offers ti lead a negotiation to bring to an end the russia ukraine war

    https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1576134989334433792?s=20&t=4FlWraZ81gdC867J08rkqg
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,196
    maxh said:

    So whilst I agree that our democratic system allows eg a change in leader and some policies between elections (and this is in fact essential), the extent of the change, and the fact that it directly contradicts what (some) people thought they were voting for, pushes this argument beyond breaking point. I don’t think we’re dealing in absolutes here.

    Mmm. Our system gives quite a lot of power to an elected government during its term, which means there's a lot of leeway for it to take quite sharp turns in overall policy direction. (Compare the US, where there are more checks-and-balances and more frequent opportunities for the electorate to express disapproval. That brings its own set of dysfunctions, though...) I guess overall I'd say this sharp libertarian turn is deeply unwise in part because it's not something the electorate ever signed up to, but it's not "undemocratic". Hopefully the utterly dismal polling will make Tory MPs push back on the leadership. Otherwise, vote for parties who will pick up the pieces in 2024...
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,546
    pm215 said:

    Mmm. Our system gives quite a lot of power to an elected government during its term, which means there's a lot of leeway for it to take quite sharp turns in overall policy direction. (Compare the US, where there are more checks-and-balances and more frequent opportunities for the electorate to express disapproval. That brings its own set of dysfunctions, though...) I guess overall I'd say this sharp libertarian turn is deeply unwise in part because it's not something the electorate ever signed up to, but it's not "undemocratic". Hopefully the utterly dismal polling will make Tory MPs push back on the leadership. Otherwise, vote for parties who will pick up the pieces in 2024...
    Yes, that's what I'm trying to say I think. It's not 'undemocratic' in the sense of whether it is permitted in our democratic system, but it isn't what the electorate signed up (nor, I suspect, would they, given the chance, though I recognise that might be my own biases speaking). In the second sense it clearly is 'undemocratic'.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    ydoethur said:

    Well, Pincochet certainly thought so, but I am surprised to learn you would side with him :smile:

    Hope you are having a slightly easier time at your place (although that's hope over experience in the current mess).
    I mean Allende was considered to be a moderate within his Party. Defined himself as a Socialist, and won only 36.2 % of the vote. He was supported by Communists, yes, who were a big part of him getting elected.
    But it's a bit of a step to say they elected an openly Communist government.
    They also never won the Parliament.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,926
    sbjme19 said:

    I see the odious Clarke has been shooting his mouth "the state's far too big and too much welfare, it makes it harder for us to give tax cuts to the rich". Who he? A long streak of piss risen without trace, the North East's answer to Mogg

    Do you think the state's too small?
  • OllyT said:

    If the election were this week you are probably right. But you are getting way ahead of yourself. Truss could double down and the Tories have a 1997-style melt down. On the other hand they could change leader early next year, steady the ship, and we end up with NOM.

    Given the Tories track record since 2019 they deserve a good kicking but that doesn't necessarily mean they will get it.
    You offer sensible words of caution, Olly, but personally I am having great difficulty seeing how the Tories reverse ferret out of this one.

    The odds on a Labour Overall Majority look generous to me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,051
    Andy_JS said:

    Do you think the state's too small?
    I don't actually have a problem with much lower taxes and a smaller state. I'm a pretty right-wing Tory. Those who think this is all about the 45p rate have got it wrong, at least for my constituency.

    It's the economic illiteracy and irresponsibility of the announcements (essentially ignoring the deficit and the cost of borrowing) that got me.

  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    So after blowing tens of billions on tax cuts the odious Clarke then moans about government spending . And I fxcking hate that expression trimming the fat !

    Where in the manifesto did the public vote for austerity and didn’t the Maggie clone promise no spending cuts .
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119
    edited October 2022
    PeterM said:

    Trump offers ti lead a negotiation to bring to an end the russia ukraine war

    https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1576134989334433792?s=20&t=4FlWraZ81gdC867J08rkqg

    Course he does. Any negotiation now only favours Russia.

    Meanwhile, Lyman has been recovered by Ukraine, Zarichne may also have been, soon all of occupied Donetsk north of the Siversky Donets river may be liberated, and Ukraine are expected to advance into western Luhansk, making a mockery of Russia's fictitious annexations. Putin is impotent.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,051
    Sean_F said:

    One techie friend of mine has always said that it's a feature, not a bug, of social media, that it generates hate.

    One (and I have been guilty of this, and try to correct it) can end up saying things one would never dream of saying to another person in real life, and never dream of writing, if putting pen to paper.
    I think being behind a screen has a lot to do with it.

    It's less common but before social media it used to happen with road rage. Usually, because one person behind a screen let their emotions go and another behind another did the same in response.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,051

    That's the beauty of the, "winding up all the right people formulation." You can use it to invalidate all social disapproval.
    I think that's spot on.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Do you think the state's too small?
    One of the big misunderstandings in our politics is on the size of the state. Demand for the services offered by the state is increasing each year due to our demographics and people living longer. If we want to simply maintain services like pensions and healthcare at current levels we need to increase the share the state takes.

    If the state was the correct size at around 35% in the 90s and 40% so far this century, then the equivalent will be mid 40s over the next couple of decades.

    You can't just take a number from thirty plus years ago and assume it will still work for the future.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,119

    I don't actually have a problem with much lower taxes and a smaller state. I'm a pretty right-wing Tory. Those who think this is all about the 45p rate have got it wrong, at least for my constituency.

    It's the economic illiteracy and irresponsibility of the announcements (essentially ignoring the deficit and the cost of borrowing) that got me.
    Would they be able to win you back with a credible plan to close the deficit by cutting public spending, or have you lost trust in them to the extent that you'd find any plan from them not to be credible, and you'd have to see the public borrowing figures improve over the next 18 months before you could be swayed?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,021

    You offer sensible words of caution, Olly, but personally I am having great difficulty seeing how the Tories reverse ferret out of this one.

    The odds on a Labour Overall Majority look generous to me.
    I was really just trying to deter CHB from being hubristic before he ends up with egg on his face. I agree that it is difficult to see how thee Tories turn this around and my punt is currently on a small overall majority
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,031

    Course he does. Any negotiation now only favours Russia.

    Meanwhile, Lyman has been recovered by Ukraine, Zarichne may also have been, soon all of occupied Donetsk north of the Siversky Donets river may be liberated, and Ukraine are expected to advance into western Luhansk, making a mockery of Russia's fictitious annexations. Putin is impotent.
    A mini "highway of death" on the only road out of Lyman. Russian troops tried to escape in civilian vehicles:

    https://twitter.com/search?q=#UKRAINE&f=live
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,257
    edited October 2022
    dixiedean said:

    I mean Allende was considered to be a moderate within his Party. Defined himself as a Socialist, and won only 36.2 % of the vote. He was supported by Communists, yes, who were a big part of him getting elected.
    But it's a bit of a step to say they elected an openly Communist government.
    They also never won the Parliament.
    Yes, I don't think that Allende was elected *as* a communist, although communists were part of his coalition, and the Chilean assembly had nothing close to a communist majority. It was more like the election of the Popular Front in France, in 1936.

    I think that communist governments have been elected in West Bengal, on occasion.
  • OllyT said:

    I was really just trying to deter CHB from being hubristic before he ends up with egg on his face. I agree that it is difficult to see how thee Tories turn this around and my punt is currently on a small overall majority
    Another manifestation of the Scottish Effect.

    Labour 330, SNP 50, Lib Dem 25, Odds'n'ends 25 puts the Conservatives on 220, if I've done the maths right.

    Only a small Labour majority, but a terrible night for the Conservatives.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,824
    Sean_F said:

    Yes, I don't think that Allende was elected *as* a communist, although communists were part of his coalition, and the Chilean assembly had nothing close to a communist majority. It was more like the election of the Popular Front in France, in 1936.

    I think that communist governments have been elected in West Bengal, on occasion.
    Kerala and Tripura too.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,021
    Out of interest has any country officially recognised Putin's annexations yet?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,712
    OllyT said:

    Out of interest has any country officially recognised Putin's annexations yet?

    India abstained.

  • Hello_CloudsHello_Clouds Posts: 97
    edited October 2022

    Deeply rooted in the mindset of Truss and co. is the idea that governmental influence over the individual - be it the welfare system giving them money they wouldn't otherwise have, or the NHS deciding what happens to their bodies - is in itself deeply immoral. Moreover, it will always be harmful as governments are inherently inefficient and incompetent. Eradicate the governmental stuff and, after some initial jolts, the individual will shine and prosper as never before.
    It was the Thatcher government that introduced the national curriculum in state schools.

    As for welfare and free-at-the-point-of-use state healthcare, they aren't necessarily bound up with control over the individual, and it says a lot about Tory ideology that the two things are conflated.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,138
    Liz Truss & Kwasi Kwarteng absolutely confident in their approach

    They view markets response as an over-reaction based on failure to understand full extent of plans for govt

    They believe markets will settle. They are not changing course


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1576178963168247816
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,138
    The chairman and operations lead of the Young Conservatives has apologised after calling Birmingham - where the party is holding its annual conference - a “dump”.

    Daniel Grainger said he “tweeted without thinking” after being threatened with a mugging. https://twitter.com/KevinASchofield/status/1576177083700895749/photo/1
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,867
    Scott_xP said:

    Liz Truss & Kwasi Kwarteng absolutely confident in their approach

    They view markets response as an over-reaction based on failure to understand full extent of plans for govt

    They believe markets will settle. They are not changing course


    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1576178963168247816

    Don't worry, it's only a big ice cube. How much harm could it do?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,138
    Prepare yourselves, twitter.
    This has gone out to Tory MPs: https://twitter.com/HannahAlOthman/status/1576173996491640835/photo/1


This discussion has been closed.