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All in politics should take note of this polling – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited September 15 in General
All in politics should take note of this polling – politicalbetting.com

This is very telling. @Ipsos finds the top quality voters want in a PM is honesty. What does that tell us about the incumbent? pic.twitter.com/jRKrJdUPY1

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    edited September 1
    First!

    And the polling tells us that the incumbent was totally unsuited for the job.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    Boris struggles with all of those bar the bottom one.

    Yet for all that he defeated Corbyn.

    Corbyn had many faults but on some of the criteria he would be ahead of Boris.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035
    Are they telling the truth, though?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    edited September 1
    I'm always surprised at how high 'in touch with ordinary people' is in these things.

    I don't care if someone is in touch with ordinary people if they understand the problems, and are capable at addressing those problems. Being a top political figure is unusual, the people who get there are probably a bit weird anyway, and definitely out of touch in being interested in politics.

    My guess is people equate being in touch as more likely to understand the problems, but I'm not convinced that's true. I'm not sure everyone believes it as strongly as they think they do either, since as Taz alludes to opposition leaders do better on some, and on in touch with ordinary people I think Labour pretty much always does.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,630
    That list is unfortunately also a summary of everything Liz Truss is not. Except possibly I would say she's reasonably honest. Her opinions may be bats but she's never struck me as insincere.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    Boris struggles with all of those bar the bottom one.

    Yet for all that he defeated Corbyn.

    Corbyn had many faults but on some of the criteria he would be ahead of Boris.

    interesting

    would you also interestingly say, that on other criteria he would be behind Boris? And on yet others he would be about level?

    interesting if so.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,811
    I wonder whether the poll was influenced by a reaction against the current incumbent. If it was someone who was known for his scrupulous honesty but incredibly colourless, might the bottom item come higher and the top item lower? Has there been any previous polling on this?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I don't know who posted this about whom on the last thread, but I hope we can agree that PB is no place for this sort of nonsense

    "You are just the most relentlessly boring human being I have encountered in 25 years on the internet, it is painfully obvious what effect you are striving for in your little posts about what an excellent dish of humble tomatoes you and your good lady wife had at the Strangled Duck in 2013, and how far short you fall. And Charles of blessed memory was not a posh person, he was - agonizingly - a person like you's misperception of what a posh person is like.

    What are you here for?"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    edited September 1
    I also don't buy 'share my values' being so low, since it features one way or another in the political attacks from one side to another, presumably because it resonates with the public if Boris or Keir are felt to be secret fascistic or communist in their values or whatever.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297
    edited September 1
    Why does "a capable leader" score only 54%?
    Do 46% want an incapable one?
    And the danger for Truss is the second one "understands the problems facing Britain" Haven't seen evidence of that as of yet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    dixiedean said:

    Why does "a capable leader" score only 54%?
    Do 46% want an incapable one?
    And the danger for Truss is the second one "understands the problems facing Britain" Haven't seen evidence of that as of yet.

    It's not that they want an incapable one, we presuambly want a PM to be all of these qualities, just that the most important thing to make them good in the role is something else (I assume on the basis someone very capable but dishonest would be capable to do nefarious things).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kle4 said:

    I also don't buy 'share my values' being so low, since it features one way or another in the political attacks from one side to another, presumably because it resonates with the public if Boris or Keir are felt to be secret fascistic or communist in their values or whatever.

    Value my shares is a much bigger deal for me, speaking as a well heeled oenophile.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,451
    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't know who posted this about whom on the last thread, but I hope we can agree that PB is no place for this sort of nonsense

    "You are just the most relentlessly boring human being I have encountered in 25 years on the internet, it is painfully obvious what effect you are striving for in your little posts about what an excellent dish of humble tomatoes you and your good lady wife had at the Strangled Duck in 2013, and how far short you fall. And Charles of blessed memory was not a posh person, he was - agonizingly - a person like you's misperception of what a posh person is like.

    What are you here for?"

    Short term memory loss is a leading medical indicator. Try Googling and see if you are in trouble.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I don't know who posted this about whom on the last thread, but I hope we can agree that PB is no place for this sort of nonsense

    "You are just the most relentlessly boring human being I have encountered in 25 years on the internet, it is painfully obvious what effect you are striving for in your little posts about what an excellent dish of humble tomatoes you and your good lady wife had at the Strangled Duck in 2013, and how far short you fall. And Charles of blessed memory was not a posh person, he was - agonizingly - a person like you's misperception of what a posh person is like.

    What are you here for?"

    Short term memory loss is a leading medical indicator. Try Googling and see if you are in trouble.
    I think I've seen Memento, but I just can't remember
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,709
    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited September 1
    Leon said:
    show previous quotes
    I have diagnosed myself several times via Google. Once was when I had a strange constellation of symptoms which had my doctors mystified. Indeed one of them basically accused me of making it up

    So I went to Doc Google, and plugged in all my weird symptoms - from eyebrow loss to thick hair and amnesia and the rest - and it came back immediately. Hypothyroidism. I was an unusual case, male, quite young, but the symptoms were so ODD it had to be that?

    I went back to the GPs and they were still skeptical but I insisted, they gave me a blood test. Bingo. Hypothyroidism

    They confessed the results quite sheepishly

    Without Google, how long might I have gone on arguing with the quacks?

    **************************************************************

    Decades ago at a meal in a friends' home another guest said in passing that she thought I was hyperthyroidic (Is that a word?). I suppose she found me over-active, too focused or something. Autistic might be nearer the mark, but who cares? It suits me. At that time my resting heart rate was around 50 bpm so I'm not sure she was tuned in.

    Concerning AI replacing humans: how would AI ask, and try to solve, the loopy questions theoretical physicist ask? Of course, physicists do make huge use of digital methods in some cases "intelligent" ones too.

    Has anyone tried to get AI to write a Shakespearean sonnet or play?
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    I'm always surprised at how high 'in touch with ordinary people' is in these things.

    I don't care if someone is in touch with ordinary people if they understand the problems, and are capable at addressing those problems. Being a top political figure is unusual, the people who get there are probably a bit weird anyway, and definitely out of touch in being interested in politics.

    My guess is people equate being in touch as more likely to understand the problems, but I'm not convinced that's true. I'm not sure everyone believes it as strongly as they think they do either, since as Taz alludes to opposition leaders do better on some, and on in touch with ordinary people I think Labour pretty much always does.

    Yes, I think you are right. But it is to understand their specific problems.

    A politician cannot be in touch with every community and every issue.

    It is like when people say ‘these politicians don’t live in the real world’. What exactly is the real world. The real world I live in is different to my neighbours and friends.

    I hate it when they try a gotcha like asking the price of a pint of milk. So what if a politician doesn’t know. I wouldn’t know, I don’t drink it. Why should a politician know. It doesn’t make them any more or less in touch with the cost of living.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    I'm always surprised at how high 'in touch with ordinary people' is in these things.

    I don't care if someone is in touch with ordinary people if they understand the problems, and are capable at addressing those problems. Being a top political figure is unusual, the people who get there are probably a bit weird anyway, and definitely out of touch in being interested in politics.

    My guess is people equate being in touch as more likely to understand the problems, but I'm not convinced that's true. I'm not sure everyone believes it as strongly as they think they do either, since as Taz alludes to opposition leaders do better on some, and on in touch with ordinary people I think Labour pretty much always does.

    Yes, I think you are right. But it is to understand their specific problems.

    A politician cannot be in touch with every community and every issue.

    It is like when people say ‘these politicians don’t live in the real world’. What exactly is the real world. The real world I live in is different to my neighbours and friends.

    I hate it when they try a gotcha like asking the price of a pint of milk. So what if a politician doesn’t know. I wouldn’t know, I don’t drink it. Why should a politician know. It doesn’t make them any more or less in touch with the cost of living.
    interesting
  • Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    However, they really really don't want their noses rubbed in the dishonesty. And at some point, Johnson's relationship with enough voters crossed the boundary from cheeky evasion to humourless lying. And relationships don't usually recover from that.
  • So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962
    Evening all :)

    Out and about at a strangely quiet Westfield Stratford. Either the return to school is keeping everyone occupied or the first signs of a conscious reduction in expenditure are showing. It's also fair to say for all the good talk about retail a number of large empty units especially further from the main entrance.

    New Prime Ministers sometimes needs or get that undefinable thing called "luck". Go back 15 years and Gordon Brown not only had two botched terrorist attacks in Glasgow and London but his response to the flooding was seen as being reasonable by many (though by no means all).

    I'm no Conservative and I find a lot of what Liz Truss says and stands for antithetical to my own beliefs in and wishes for this country. I think her approach is misguided but I could be wrong. I fear she is far too dogmatic and determined to "be a Conservative" to win the approval of the Mail and Express rather than actually do what is best for the country.

    I've never had an issue with boring competency - Starmer, for all his many detractors on here, seems to be boringly competent. It's easy to sound radical and revolutionary but the truth is walking the walk is much harder than talking the talk. The solutions to this country's many problems are probably more in the boring category than the exciting and radical but that's the thing - we put off doing the boring and the difficult because it's boring and difficult.

    Doesn't mean it doesn't need doing and we won't all be the better for it being done.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 2,958
    "It’s a very strong tradition in British politics that you don’t knowingly tell untruths to the House of Common."

    What a weird tradition. Truth is just convention?
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    Toms said:

    Leon said:
    show previous quotes
    I have diagnosed myself several times via Google. Once was when I had a strange constellation of symptoms which had my doctors mystified. Indeed one of them basically accused me of making it up

    So I went to Doc Google, and plugged in all my weird symptoms - from eyebrow loss to thick hair and amnesia and the rest - and it came back immediately. Hypothyroidism. I was an unusual case, male, quite young, but the symptoms were so ODD it had to be that?

    I went back to the GPs and they were still skeptical but I insisted, they gave me a blood test. Bingo. Hypothyroidism

    They confessed the results quite sheepishly

    Without Google, how long might I have gone on arguing with the quacks?

    **************************************************************

    Decades ago at a meal in a friends' home another guest said in passing that she thought I was hyperthyroidic (Is that a word?). I suppose she found me over-active, too focused or something. Autistic might be nearer the mark, but who cares? It suits me. At that time my resting heart rate was around 50 bpm so I'm not sure she was tuned in.

    Concerning AI replacing humans: how would AI ask, and try to solve, the loopy questions theoretical physicist ask? Of course, physicists do make huge use of digital methods in some cases "intelligent" ones too.

    Has anyone tried to get AI to write a Shakespearean sonnet or play?

    Probably turn out like one of Baldrick’s war poems.

    Lol
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    If that’s the voters’ top priority, I suspect they’re going to disappointed in the next PB, as well.
  • Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    Both of them? Trouble from different directions there.

    I'd be all for it, I think it'd be hilarious if both main parties have withdrawn the whip from their past leaders, especially one who used to be PM.

    Personally I'm still not quite convinced Boris makes it another 12 months as an MP. I know it is income when he doesn't even need to actually do anything on the backbenches, but if things settle down a bit then Truss will look safe and he surely has no interest in remaining on the backbenches.

    That she has sucked up to his time as PM so much counter intuitively makes it hard for her to bring him into the Cabinet, because by her own logic she should defer to him since she never wanted him gone. So he has to remain on the outs.

    But I think he'll be lucky and things will go badly for the Tories in the next 12 months, which he will want to make himself look better.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Thanks.

    I wonder if Johnson will survive this investigation. Team Truss could, surely, influence the committee to find against him. Should they wish a clean break with the past.
  • Evening all,

    RIP to both Gorbachev and Bill Turnbull.

    In other news, today Ilford station finally gained a new main entrance and lifts, the last of the Lizzie Line stations to get step-free access. It was under refurbishment since late January 2020!

    image
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,451

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    However, they really really don't want their noses rubbed in the dishonesty. And at some point, Johnson's relationship with enough voters crossed the boundary from cheeky evasion to humourless lying. And relationships don't usually recover from that.
    The parties, however shit most of them were in reality, and I still contend most of them were not exactly parties as the rabid press would have them (drink in suitcase excepted), broke the contract. So many people obeyed the ‘rules’, even when those ‘rules’ were patently absurd (covid only spreads in a pub when you are standing up or walking), that to see the complete fail to get this from Johnson and chums, was the breaking point. It might have needed other issues for his MPs to see this, but he was done as soon as he said “there were no parties”, when of course there were.
    We were warned about his lies. And the country made a pact with the liar to resolve the deadlock the country had been placed into.

    And sadly, I still don’t think Johnson understands what he did wrong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239

    "It’s a very strong tradition in British politics that you don’t knowingly tell untruths to the House of Common."

    What a weird tradition. Truth is just convention?

    Of course it is, if one honoured more in theory than in practice. Untruths are too hard to pin down precisely, what with obfuscations, lies by omission, cherry picking, and other myriad means of misleading others in order to get ahead.
  • LOL at the United fans chanting 'Rooney, Rooney, Rooney' at Jamie Vardy as he gets subbed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,437
    edited September 1
    Poor Jamie Vardy, he will be forever known for his wife being a grass.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 2,958
    kle4 said:

    "It’s a very strong tradition in British politics that you don’t knowingly tell untruths to the House of Common."

    What a weird tradition. Truth is just convention?

    Of course it is, if one honoured more in theory than in practice. Untruths are too hard to pin down precisely, what with obfuscations, lies by omission, cherry picking, and other myriad means of misleading others in order to get ahead.
    I think I was hoping there was a bit more imperative to truth than just convention and tradition, though...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    However, they really really don't want their noses rubbed in the dishonesty. And at some point, Johnson's relationship with enough voters crossed the boundary from cheeky evasion to humourless lying. And relationships don't usually recover from that.
    The parties, however shit most of them were in reality, and I still contend most of them were not exactly parties as the rabid press would have them (drink in suitcase excepted), broke the contract. So many people obeyed the ‘rules’, even when those ‘rules’ were patently absurd (covid only spreads in a pub when you are standing up or walking), that to see the complete fail to get this from Johnson and chums, was the breaking point. It might have needed other issues for his MPs to see this, but he was done as soon as he said “there were no parties”, when of course there were.
    We were warned about his lies. And the country made a pact with the liar to resolve the deadlock the country had been placed into.

    And sadly, I still don’t think Johnson understands what he did wrong.
    There's not really any question about that, his ongoing pattern of behaviour proves he only knows that some people got mad, he said sorry (sort of), why would people continue to hound him about it, or gods forbid pick up on yet more ill behaviour when he so clearly is doing a great job?

    His inevitable write up about it is going to be incredibly whingy, you can put money on that right now.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,962

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Is there a scintilla of a possibility of Gove and Johnson joining forces and forming their own party?

    I'd be long on popcorn if that were to happen.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,109
    edited September 1
    Theresa May = Geoffrey Boycott
    Boris Johnson = Ian Botham
    David Cameron = David Gower

    It was of course Johnson who made the contrast with himself and May in relation to the first two. Now I'll be clear when I'm comparing him to Ian, sorry, Lord Botham I don't mean in his prime. I mean the later career Botham, overweight, living off his reputation and better known for frivolous off field activities. But no-one would doubt that beefy had personality if that's what you're looking for. There is something weird about England's love of the gifted amateur but maybe it reveals a surprisingly romantic side to the national character. Anyway I don't think it helps much in our leaders.

    Gower seemed the obvious resemblance for Cameron. Posh, relaxed, looks the part, way too casual and lacking concentration.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA
  • Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    However, they really really don't want their noses rubbed in the dishonesty. And at some point, Johnson's relationship with enough voters crossed the boundary from cheeky evasion to humourless lying. And relationships don't usually recover from that.
    The parties, however shit most of them were in reality, and I still contend most of them were not exactly parties as the rabid press would have them (drink in suitcase excepted), broke the contract. So many people obeyed the ‘rules’, even when those ‘rules’ were patently absurd (covid only spreads in a pub when you are standing up or walking), that to see the complete fail to get this from Johnson and chums, was the breaking point. It might have needed other issues for his MPs to see this, but he was done as soon as he said “there were no parties”, when of course there were.
    We were warned about his lies. And the country made a pact with the liar to resolve the deadlock the country had been placed into.

    And sadly, I still don’t think Johnson understands what he did wrong.
    True, and at a personal level, sad. But after decades of getting away with it, it's probably too late for him to learn now.

    But if BoJo really was politically dead, it would just be a sad personal story. The more dangerous bit is that a significant slice of the Conservative party don't understand what he did wrong, or why it matters.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,476

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    I'm already having seller's remorse for demanding Johnson's resignation. A case of be careful what one wishes for. What comes next is going to be even worse isn't it?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Thanks.

    I wonder if Johnson will survive this investigation. Team Truss could, surely, influence the committee to find against him. Should they wish a clean break with the past.
    interesting
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Thanks.

    I wonder if Johnson will survive this investigation. Team Truss could, surely, influence the committee to find against him. Should they wish a clean break with the past.
    Her supporters, the loyalists, have undertaken the usual approach in these matters, complain those ruling on it are biased and the processes is rigged (probably adding in a 'he's already not going to be PM anymore, let it go already', but I don't know that for sure).

    If she feels strong enough she'd attempt a Paterson to save him from censure, I am sure, not simply for him, but to show she will neuter the Standards regime to protect her MPs, which I've little doubt most MPs on both sides secretly want, but want the other lot to take responsibility for doing. If she is doing less well, he makes for a sacrificial lamb - see, I'm at least honest.

    Given the difficulty of proving intentional misleading, seems to me he might get lucky and be suspended for less than a period to trigger a recall for 'merely' misleading.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    interesting
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    How will that work? Truss won’t be post in 12 months time. 😂
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:
    show previous quotes
    I have diagnosed myself several times via Google. Once was when I had a strange constellation of symptoms which had my doctors mystified. Indeed one of them basically accused me of making it up

    So I went to Doc Google, and plugged in all my weird symptoms - from eyebrow loss to thick hair and amnesia and the rest - and it came back immediately. Hypothyroidism. I was an unusual case, male, quite young, but the symptoms were so ODD it had to be that?

    I went back to the GPs and they were still skeptical but I insisted, they gave me a blood test. Bingo. Hypothyroidism

    They confessed the results quite sheepishly

    Without Google, how long might I have gone on arguing with the quacks?

    **************************************************************

    Decades ago at a meal in a friends' home another guest said in passing that she thought I was hyperthyroidic (Is that a word?). I suppose she found me over-active, too focused or something. Autistic might be nearer the mark, but who cares? It suits me. At that time my resting heart rate was around 50 bpm so I'm not sure she was tuned in.

    Concerning AI replacing humans: how would AI ask, and try to solve, the loopy questions theoretical physicist ask? Of course, physicists do make huge use of digital methods in some cases "intelligent" ones too.

    Has anyone tried to get AI to write a Shakespearean sonnet or play?

    Probably turn out like one of Baldrick’s war poems.

    Lol
    Lol

    Interesting
    Taz said:

    Toms said:

    Leon said:
    show previous quotes
    I have diagnosed myself several times via Google. Once was when I had a strange constellation of symptoms which had my doctors mystified. Indeed one of them basically accused me of making it up

    So I went to Doc Google, and plugged in all my weird symptoms - from eyebrow loss to thick hair and amnesia and the rest - and it came back immediately. Hypothyroidism. I was an unusual case, male, quite young, but the symptoms were so ODD it had to be that?

    I went back to the GPs and they were still skeptical but I insisted, they gave me a blood test. Bingo. Hypothyroidism

    They confessed the results quite sheepishly

    Without Google, how long might I have gone on arguing with the quacks?

    **************************************************************

    Decades ago at a meal in a friends' home another guest said in passing that she thought I was hyperthyroidic (Is that a word?). I suppose she found me over-active, too focused or something. Autistic might be nearer the mark, but who cares? It suits me. At that time my resting heart rate was around 50 bpm so I'm not sure she was tuned in.

    Concerning AI replacing humans: how would AI ask, and try to solve, the loopy questions theoretical physicist ask? Of course, physicists do make huge use of digital methods in some cases "intelligent" ones too.

    Has anyone tried to get AI to write a Shakespearean sonnet or play?

    Probably turn out like one of Baldrick’s war poems.

    Lol
    Lol

    interesting
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    I'm already having seller's remorse for demanding Johnson's resignation. A case of be careful what one wishes for. What comes next is going to be even worse isn't it?
    The state of the country? Yes, but that was pretty baked in at this point.

    The government? Bits of it, yes, if Truss promotes and supports those even Boris seems to have promoted only on sufferance.

    The premiership in general? I don't think it will be worse. Her policies may or may not end up better, and I doubt she gives a crap about integrity either (she happily served under him right to the end), but she simply does not have the freedom to act as flagrantly as Boris did, and is a much more conventional minister, and seems reasonably competent.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:
    hilarious

    and interesting
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    edited September 1
    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Any particular reason, other than disliking her, for the attempt to deselect her? Not my cup of tea by any means but doesn't seem like she's done much in a short space of time to truly upset her local party.

    I do like the 'rising star of the left' idea. In its usual context, outside the Corbyn years, what that seems to mean is who gets to be the most visible crank and serial rebel who votes with the Tories against a Labour government the most.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654
    Taz said:
    God bless JRM. I cannot wait for him to begin at BEIS
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Thanks.

    I wonder if Johnson will survive this investigation. Team Truss could, surely, influence the committee to find against him. Should they wish a clean break with the past.
    Her supporters, the loyalists, have undertaken the usual approach in these matters, complain those ruling on it are biased and the processes is rigged (probably adding in a 'he's already not going to be PM anymore, let it go already', but I don't know that for sure).

    If she feels strong enough she'd attempt a Paterson to save him from censure, I am sure, not simply for him, but to show she will neuter the Standards regime to protect her MPs, which I've little doubt most MPs on both sides secretly want, but want the other lot to take responsibility for doing. If she is doing less well, he makes for a sacrificial lamb - see, I'm at least honest.

    Given the difficulty of proving intentional misleading, seems to me he might get lucky and be suspended for less than a period to trigger a recall for 'merely' misleading.
    The key is proving the intent. He’s been lucky generally in his political career. It will probably help him here too but it would help her if his ban was long enough to force a recall petition as it would surely get over the line. He will never be forgiven for Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    edited September 1
    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560
    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    A Sky News investigation spanning months, looking into sexual misconduct and bullying in Westminster, can reveal allegations of sexual misconduct against a serving cabinet minister and a senior Number 10 aide https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1565445706785370112/video/1
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    On what basis. Did they speculate ?

    The investigation into Boris Johnson requires the whip to removed.

    Gove for voting against government on a budget.
    Thanks.

    I wonder if Johnson will survive this investigation. Team Truss could, surely, influence the committee to find against him. Should they wish a clean break with the past.
    Her supporters, the loyalists, have undertaken the usual approach in these matters, complain those ruling on it are biased and the processes is rigged (probably adding in a 'he's already not going to be PM anymore, let it go already', but I don't know that for sure).

    If she feels strong enough she'd attempt a Paterson to save him from censure, I am sure, not simply for him, but to show she will neuter the Standards regime to protect her MPs, which I've little doubt most MPs on both sides secretly want, but want the other lot to take responsibility for doing. If she is doing less well, he makes for a sacrificial lamb - see, I'm at least honest.

    Given the difficulty of proving intentional misleading, seems to me he might get lucky and be suspended for less than a period to trigger a recall for 'merely' misleading.
    The key is proving the intent. He’s been lucky generally in his political career. It will probably help him here too but it would help her if his ban was long enough to force a recall petition as it would surely get over the line. He will never be forgiven for Brexit.
    interesting
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
    250 courses is probably a bit overkill. I wonder if he’ll also start to confront the trend of pronouns in peoples email signatures or - more recently - how to pronounce peoples names.

  • I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560
    IshmaelZ said:

    Taz said:
    hilarious

    and interesting
    Mate, please take an aspirin, drink a litre of water, and have a lie down

  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Any particular reason, other than disliking her, for the attempt to deselect her? Not my cup of tea by any means but doesn't seem like she's done much in a short space of time to truly upset her local party.

    I do like the 'rising star of the left' idea. In its usual context, outside the Corbyn years, what that seems to mean is who gets to be the most visible crank and serial rebel who votes with the Tories against a Labour government the most.
    The main reason appears to be, like Sam Tarry and a few others, they were left wing Corbynites forced on the local party. Sultana does seem, at least, to have a profile and is quite articulate. She is also spearheading ‘enough is enough’ which is helping her profile too.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
    250 courses is probably a bit overkill. I wonder if he’ll also start to confront the trend of pronouns in peoples email signatures or - more recently - how to pronounce peoples names.

    I'd have thought rolling responsibility for monitoring these matters into existing roles rather than a role specifically to promote such would be a bigger 'win' for him, but probably difficult to achieve.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,064
    A cabinet minister and a top Number 10 aide serve at the heart of Boris Johnson's government despite allegations of sexual misconduct, a Sky News investigation can reveal.

    Sky News today publishes testimony from two women who give detailed, first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures who are both now in senior roles.


    https://news.sky.com/story/sexual-misconduct-allegations-revealed-against-cabinet-minister-and-top-no-10-aide-12686969
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Any particular reason, other than disliking her, for the attempt to deselect her? Not my cup of tea by any means but doesn't seem like she's done much in a short space of time to truly upset her local party.

    I do like the 'rising star of the left' idea. In its usual context, outside the Corbyn years, what that seems to mean is who gets to be the most visible crank and serial rebel who votes with the Tories against a Labour government the most.
    The main reason appears to be, like Sam Tarry and a few others, they were left wing Corbynites forced on the local party. Sultana does seem, at least, to have a profile and is quite articulate. She is also spearheading ‘enough is enough’ which is helping her profile too.
    Thanks, so to a degree its a reaction to carpetbagging?

    Still, plenty of MPs do a good job with limited connection to an area even when forced on the local party.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,654

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-
    accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    The Tory party reeks

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,451

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
    250 courses is probably a bit overkill. I wonder if he’ll also start to confront the trend of pronouns in peoples email signatures or - more recently - how to pronounce peoples names.

    I have no objection if people want to put their desired pronouns in their email signature. I do object if I am mandated to do it. Tolerance, understanding, respect should go in all directions.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    Just like with Boris Johnson in 2019, Conservative members are looking for someone who will tell them it’s all going to be fine, even though it isn't.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/tories-kick-addiction-delusional-wishful-thinking
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,451
    Scott_xP said:

    Just like with Boris Johnson in 2019, Conservative members are looking for someone who will tell them it’s all going to be fine, even though it isn't.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/tories-kick-addiction-delusional-wishful-thinking

    It is all going to be fine…for SKS and his labour chums. In 2 and a half years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Scott_xP said:

    Just like with Boris Johnson in 2019, Conservative members are looking for someone who will tell them it’s all going to be fine, even though it isn't.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/tories-kick-addiction-delusional-wishful-thinking

    In 2019 they were looking for someone who was going to be able to win the next election for them.

    They got that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
    Fortunately in my long career I have never had to take one of these courses but I expect them to be little more than a box ticking excercise, probably,using up left over budget, and simply non value added but they provide a decent and steady revenue stream to a handful of companies set up to provide them.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Any particular reason, other than disliking her, for the attempt to deselect her? Not my cup of tea by any means but doesn't seem like she's done much in a short space of time to truly upset her local party.

    I do like the 'rising star of the left' idea. In its usual context, outside the Corbyn years, what that seems to mean is who gets to be the most visible crank and serial rebel who votes with the Tories against a Labour government the most.
    The main reason appears to be, like Sam Tarry and a few others, they were left wing Corbynites forced on the local party. Sultana does seem, at least, to have a profile and is quite articulate. She is also spearheading ‘enough is enough’ which is helping her profile too.
    Thanks, so to a degree its a reaction to carpetbagging?

    Still, plenty of MPs do a good job with limited connection to an area even when forced on the local party.
    Our future PM was foisted on the ‘turnip Taliban’ in the days of David Cameron’s A list.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Just like with Boris Johnson in 2019, Conservative members are looking for someone who will tell them it’s all going to be fine, even though it isn't.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/tories-kick-addiction-delusional-wishful-thinking

    It is all going to be fine…for SKS and his labour chums. In 2 and a half years.
    :innocent:

    image
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Scott_xP said:

    Just like with Boris Johnson in 2019, Conservative members are looking for someone who will tell them it’s all going to be fine, even though it isn't.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/09/tories-kick-addiction-delusional-wishful-thinking

    It will be fine for most of the tory membership as they have sufficient wealth, assets and pensions to ride out the coming depression.

    This will give them sufficient headroom to focus their energies on tackling the urgent woke crisis whilst millions freeze or battle to get enough to feed their families.

  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560
    edited September 1
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    Mott the Hoople were from Herefordshire, where I grew up. I remember going to a gig in some tiny Hereford pub in 1982 and being told two of the band on stage were members of Mott the Hoople

    Remarkable, really. A fairly major band with some big hits, and that association with Bowie. From little market town, Hereford. Ditto: the Pretenders. Also huge

    There is virtually no equal for the UK 1960-2000: in terms producing major musicians and bands, per capita. Every tiny town seems to have turfed up a star of some kind

    There IS one valid comparison tho, which is why I say "virtually". It is Tuscany in the early-mid Renaissance. Every sizeable village seems to have furnished the globe with a superb artist. You can go in any average Florentine church and find the grave - or art - of artists no famed worldwide

    Begs the question. Why there, why then?

    Why music in Britain from 1960-2000? Why art in Tuscany from 1350-1600?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Taz said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.

    Though courses like that were at least better than personality based management training I've been on, which talked about how to 'guide' different personality types so robotically it felt like socialisation training for sociopaths, as I've remarked before.
    Fortunately in my long career I have never had to take one of these courses but I expect them to be little more than a box ticking excercise, probably,using up left over budget, and simply non value added but they provide a decent and steady revenue stream to a handful of companies set up to provide them.
    You can tell the ones which have some energy and intent to assist people think about their jobs and relevant issues, against the ones which are just generic lectures. The latter are why they are often interminable regardless of acceptance of the point.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-
    accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    The Tory party reeks

    "One claim of sexual assault allegedly dismissed on the grounds that the man ‘had women throwing themselves at him’ "

    Surely that narrows the suspects down rather dramatically?

    Given that politics is fame/rock and roll for ugly people.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    Unusual for the Conservative party to have *already* fixed a Liz Truss banner onto the front page of its website when the contest is still (technically at least) not over… https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1565449043219779587/photo/1
  • Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,111
    edited September 1
    snip
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    "I tell it like it is" is a red flag for me.
    I spout off my prejudices regardless of the audience.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,745
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.
    I think it's worse than that, in my case. And I doubt I'm the only one.

    I always go into those courses determined to be fair to anyone regardless of race, gender or sexuality.

    But a day of being brainwashed, bored and patronised with dodgy arguments and satistics generally leaves me much less sympathetic than when I went in.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    Taz said:
    Not all 'woke' even by PB Wokefinder General and Corporals standards. Some sound impeccably Johnsonian in timbre.

    And all inplemented or at least updated/confirmed during Tory Party hegemony. Including that of Mr R-M, as Cabinet Minister.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Scott_xP said:

    Unusual for the Conservative party to have *already* fixed a Liz Truss banner onto the front page of its website when the contest is still (technically at least) not over… https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1565449043219779587/photo/1

    That is pretty funny. The page it links to is still 'tell the next PM' but I guess someone jumped the gun.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,913
    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.
    I think it's worse than that, in my case. And I doubt I'm the only one.

    I always go into those courses determined to be fair to anyone regardless of race, gender or sexuality.

    But a day of being brainwashed, bored and patronised with dodgy arguments and satistics generally leaves me much less sympathetic than when I went in.

    Wonder where you work. The University where I help out has succinct and pointed courses which I wish had been available when I was a much younger student and then employee.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 8,508
    On topic. “It’s a very strong tradition in British politics”

    Surely it’s timeless and universal to come a cropper for lying? Didn’t a German Leader straight forward lie about the cost of unification, at the election voters liked the cheaper option, midway though next parliament voters didn’t like being lied to for their vote?

    nor just in politics, how many classic storylines have the smooth talking scoundrel who everyone believe is genuine, who some start to doubt is for real, and by time everyone realises they have made off with the ingénue to ruin her and more than their share of the gold? I have seen it in Emmerdale and other soaps lots - it’s even there in Pride and Prejudice.

    The ending now seems so obvious from the start, it just needed time for the story to play out.

    But where on earth does this leave the Conservative Party? Where it had tradition for fiscal conservatism, he has uprooted those trees and burnt the logs on the fire, where it had tradition for being party of government by ensuring best talent from all wings of the party play in government (necessary for record of competence and strong succession) he lined all the talented moderates up in a corridor and ripped up their party membership, where they had reputation for getting big calls right he sounds as deluded as Trump each time he claims he did.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 2,148
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    All the old dudes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 55,093
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    Mott the Hoople were from Herefordshire, where I grew up. I remember going to a gig in some tiny Hereford pub in 1982 and being told two of the band on stage were members of Mott the Hoople

    Remarkable, really. A fairly major band with some big hits, and that association with Bowie. From little market town, Hereford. Ditto: the Pretenders. Also huge

    There is virtually no equal for the UK 1960-2000: in terms producing major musicians and bands, per capita. Every tiny town seems to have turfed up a star of some kind

    There IS one valid comparison tho, which is why I say "virtually". It is Tuscany in the early-mid Renaissance. Every sizeable village seems to have furnished the globe with a superb artist. You can go in any average Florentine church and find the grave - or art - of artists no famed worldwide

    Begs the question. Why there, why then?

    Why music in Britain from 1960-2000? Why art in Tuscany from 1350-1600?
    Mott the Hoople went through a few incarnations as well. Ian Hunter was a great front man and I am sure is still going. Mott toured until,recently,and it must be the Hereford link as Martin Chambers of the pretenders drummed for them.

    Both Pete Farndon and Jim Honeyman Scott, from the pretenders, died of overdoses. Sad. Farndon not long after being sacked. British music certainly was creative but has definitely lost out to the US in the last 20 years.

    Why there, why then ?

    Right place, right time ?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,297
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    Yeah
    I don't really know where this idea that some kind of deranged optimism in the face of all available evidence is the only way to win came from.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    Only if backed up with actions. Focusing on ideologically driven red meat for her base, which she has spent all summer promising, would not do it, since the priority would be clear.

    It's also possibly a rare occasion where the 'understands people like me' element would become relevant, since even though most MPs are well off, if they think she understands them less than Sir Keir, a firm truth from her looks like a lecture to the underclass.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 19,493
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    Mott the Hoople were from Herefordshire, where I grew up. I remember going to a gig in some tiny Hereford pub in 1982 and being told two of the band on stage were members of Mott the Hoople

    Remarkable, really. A fairly major band with some big hits, and that association with Bowie. From little market town, Hereford. Ditto: the Pretenders. Also huge

    There is virtually no equal for the UK 1960-2000: in terms producing major musicians and bands, per capita. Every tiny town seems to have turfed up a star of some kind

    There IS one valid comparison tho, which is why I say "virtually". It is Tuscany in the early-mid Renaissance. Every sizeable village seems to have furnished the globe with a superb artist. You can go in any average Florentine church and find the grave - or art - of artists no famed worldwide

    Begs the question. Why there, why then?

    Why music in Britain from 1960-2000? Why art in Tuscany from 1350-1600?
    I can't speak for Tuscany, but with UK music it'd have been something like the ease with which UK artists could get some gigs, get a manager, cut a demo, get on the radio, get on Top of the Pops, and then have that recognition propel them to European success, and then in some cases to the US. Working men's clubs, London, the English language, Radio 1, Top of the Pops, all played their part.

    The BBC should be asked to bring TOTP back, even if it never picks up the viewership of its heyday. It's a part of that jigsaw puzzle.
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    Churchill had served on the front lines in India, Sudan, South Africa and the Western Front.

    He'd taken his share of risks and hardships and had been in it together with the ordinary soldiers.

    Do you think Dizzy Lizzy is going to have it as tough this winter as those who will struggle ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,239
    edited September 1
    Carnyx said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    Taz said:
    Ok, fair play, never let it be said that he gets everything wrong.

    There have to be cheaper ways, equally effective, to promote diversity and inclusion, than what we do at present. It's boring and has little relevance to people even when they agree with every word - simple modules to take account of issues relevantly helped more.
    I think it's worse than that, in my case. And I doubt I'm the only one.

    I always go into those courses determined to be fair to anyone regardless of race, gender or sexuality.

    But a day of being brainwashed, bored and patronised with dodgy arguments and satistics generally leaves me much less sympathetic than when I went in.

    Wonder where you work. The University where I help out has succinct and pointed courses which I wish had been available when I was a much younger student and then employee.
    It very much differs from place to place (and so it is not all blameable on companies milking the idea, since people create their own).

    For me its about the balance of subjects in them - the bad ones spend a massive amount of time on presenting various theories, not all of which are universally accepted but the presentation of which makes it clear to those attending they are required to believe those theories now. The good ones can get into theories and ideas, but are much more about what the law actually is, how it applies to the job/task, and engaging with those present on their experiences and understanding.

    I've seen ones where it seems painfully clear some enthusiastic HR person has googled a bunch of information and is keen to educate everyone about it, rather than be focused on what is relevant to those present. It inhibits discussion since it is clear what answers are expected, even if it is not a requirement of the job or law.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,560

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    Churchill had served on the front lines in India, Sudan, South Africa and the Western Front.

    He'd taken his share of risks and hardships and had been in it together with the ordinary soldiers.

    Do you think Dizzy Lizzy is going to have it as tough this winter as those who will struggle ?
    No, but this is true of almost any politician. The only person I can think of, who is politically significant, who can stand up and say to the British people: trust me, I've been through terrible shit, and I am right on this, is, well, ME

    Is it time for me to stand? Let's see

    Until I decide to become the UK's new Franco, it is up to Liz Truss. And she should do this. Be candid with her people
  • Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    Churchill did have the advantage that he wasn't fighting an election any time soon. (And great indespensible national hero though he was, he lost badly in 1945, lost again in 1950 and got fewer votes than Attlee in 1951.)

    More significantly, the country has changed. I'd respect Truss for making a speech like that, but I'm strange. We've collectively bought into the idea that even quite minor inconveniences are culpable. And I can't see her making a speech like that, becuase it would go against her apparent belief in the power of positive thinking.

    It would also require a set of actions from her which I don't think she's ready for yet.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 7,109
    I can see Truss having some appeal to the Clarkson vote (the stuff about speed limits was very revealing) but I doubt she'll do well with the electorate as a whole. But who knows?
This discussion has been closed.