Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
I very clearly remember the Tories saying they would have backed the war *without* the dossier.
Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA. Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten. https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086
The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird
“I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
They did. Remember that the choices of government were (a) Labour who screwed up the intel on Iraq, or (b) the Tories who not only backed his government on Iraq, but after finding out said they would have backed the war anyway.
Has anyone ever written a counterfactual where Bush was talked out of Iraq war? I wonder what would've happened.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
I very clearly remember the Tories saying they would have backed the war *without* the dossier.
It is a no win situation for the Opposition. Especially a Tory opposition. They are not routinely invited to the intelligence briefings and hence they need to hedge their bets on the side of aggression in the name of the country. No Opposition (save for Jezza's perhaps) could afford to be blind-sided on national defence on account of not having access to the full facts.
This may have been posted before. A chinese team sent up a drone from the summit of everest and it reached over 9km and caught some impressive footage. Not good at posting links on my phone but it's at t3.com.
Ascent was in May but footage only released this week according to the article.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
It is genuinely shameful that we spend so much time and energy angsting about this dreadful woman. She chose her life, again, when she made that interview when she was 21
Let her rot in the desert. There are 67 million Brits more deserving of our sympathy
Your protestations over Shamima Begum remind me of Piers Morgan's attacks on Meghan Markle. Are you pissed Shamima didn't invite you to her wedding?
I have a good friend that knows her. Met her in Syria. Says she’s quite hot and “you would”
Lol. I don’t care. Drone
Is that the guy from the ‘last man standing’ podcast. You mentioned something about him and Mosul before.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
They did. Remember that the choices of government were (a) Labour who screwed up the intel on Iraq, or (b) the Tories who not only backed his government on Iraq, but after finding out said they would have backed the war anyway.
You asked if @MalcolmDunn is left or right. He's massively anti- Labour and pro- Conservative, so sorry still can't answer your question.
That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.
He’s not neutral though? He’s long been an advocate for her return… it surprises me that it’s only a decade after the events and after all other avenues have been tried that these new “facts” have been unearthed
Why would the Canadians do this? Why would they benefit?
Why would the Canadians want to infiltrate ISIS? Surely that is obvious.
From there, it is likely that Toronto Bond smuggled Shemima and her pals into Syria wearing his undercover ISIS hat rather than his Canadian spy hat. So from that point of view, Canada had no interest in trafficking terrorists; it was just the price to be paid for infiltration.
Lots of supposition
She was a naive idiot who thought she would do something exciting. She made the wrong choice but wanted a do over.
Actions have consequences
We seem to have moved from Canadian spies to Shemima Begum. Yes, she probably was naive; she may well have been groomed; and now we can add she might have been smuggled in by a Western intelligence agency. Quite what she herself thought was going on is another matter.
She is claiming that the fact that Canadian spies smuggled her in means she is a victim of human trafficking and therefore shouldn’t face the consequences of her actions.
I put it to you that this is self interested bullshit
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
I very clearly remember the Tories saying they would have backed the war *without* the dossier.
It is a no win situation for the Opposition. Especially a Tory opposition. They are not routinely invited to the intelligence briefings and hence they need to hedge their bets on the side of aggression in the name of the country. No Opposition (save for Jezza's perhaps) could afford to be blind-sided on national defence on account of not having access to the full facts.
That is all true, but dodges around the central premise. Their instinct was to back the Americans. They said they didn't need the dossier, but you said their acceptance was predicated on "a lie, a government lie". I don't believe it was.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
They did. Remember that the choices of government were (a) Labour who screwed up the intel on Iraq, or (b) the Tories who not only backed his government on Iraq, but after finding out said they would have backed the war anyway.
Has anyone ever written a counterfactual where Bush was talked out of Iraq war? I wonder what would've happened.
The odd thing about Iraq was that 9/11 was used as the justification for a simple case of unfinished business from daddy's era. America has a long and proud history of empire building as do we. So WMD was just an excuse, as was 9/11. Has Bush been persuaded against it there and then Saddam would have done something else to trigger it later.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
Thankfully they're moving to a new site, rather than closing altogether. Much as I enjoyed visiting Bristol Zoo, the site in Bristol is extraordinarily cramped by modern standards, which is really tough on the animals.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Thankfully they're moving to a new site, rather than closing altogether. Much as I enjoyed visiting Bristol Zoo, the site in Bristol is extraordinarily cramped by modern standards, which is really tough on the animals.
I remember that too. I was staying in a very high flat in one of the Georgian terraces in a nearby road - clear line of sight, and it turned out at night, hearing to the zoo. Unusual to have lions roaring in the middle of the night.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
I very clearly remember the Tories saying they would have backed the war *without* the dossier.
It is a no win situation for the Opposition. Especially a Tory opposition. They are not routinely invited to the intelligence briefings and hence they need to hedge their bets on the side of aggression in the name of the country. No Opposition (save for Jezza's perhaps) could afford to be blind-sided on national defence on account of not having access to the full facts.
That is all true, but dodges around the central premise. Their instinct was to back the Americans. They said they didn't need the dossier, but you said their acceptance was predicated on "a lie, a government lie". I don't believe it was.
Yes their instinct was that if it moves and the US says invade, then invade.
But in this instance they were bound by having inferior or no intelligence so the choice was easy - if it was between backing the war and it turns out there was no justification; and not backing the war and it turns out there was justification, they were always going to go down the former route.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
In that case why haven’t the Tory party and various Tory hued governments repudiated the Iraq war? As far as I can see it’s only randoms on the internet that push the big lie stuff, mainly cos they feel a bit sick that they were so comprehensively suckered by Blair especially when the lentil munchers and the ghastly Nats were not.
And, re the LDs and the SNP, the Scottish Trots were too - just to drive the point home.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
I think we can and have done. She made her bed, she can lie in it.
The powers lie ultimately with the courts, not the Home Secretary, and if the courts approve the decision then that is justice being followed.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
Quite. Whether or not you much of a damn about her, but the principle is very important indeed.
Interesting if brief piece on the difference between the public and HMG on what income is requirted for decent/normal living standards.
It should be noted that a laptop or decent mobile is now increasingly essential above all if one is on UC or similar. And that I have noticed foodbanks appealing for old mobiles to re-sim and hand out to their clients, I assume for precisely that reason.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
I never engaged with the citizenship argument. I dunno whether that was legitimate or not. I trust the English courts to decide
They say it’s ok, so be it
But as I’ve said multiple times, begum sacrificed her right to English justice when she willingly went to Syria to behead people and have Yazidi sex slaves. And was then unrepentant about it six years later
Let the Syrians or Iraqis try her and punish her, as they see fit. They are her victims
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
I think we can and have done. She made her bed, she can lie in it.
The powers lie ultimately with the courts, not the Home Secretary, and if the courts approve the decision then that is justice being followed.
No, the power is vested in the HS. What the courts decided was that that decision was not open to challenge by them.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.
She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.
She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.
As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
Well, not exactly. I prioritise unproblematic immigrants (for example, Afghans who actually helped us - why the hell are they STILL in B&Bs awaiting rehoming??) over immigrants with dodgy backgrounds. The issue with Begum is that she's as British as I am - rather more, in fact, as I'm spent half my life abroad. Her opinions are irrelevant - she was entitled to think whatever she liked about ISIS, we're a country where we have freedom of opinion. The issue is whether the exercise of power to remove nationality is appropriate in thsi case (if it ever is), and I don't think it is, because of the grooming and the weakness of the claim that she could be Bangladeshi if she chose.
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
LOL at old people on this site suggesting a return of TotP as a way to encourage British music.
British music is doing quite well both domestically and abroad, but next to nobody young streaming or making music, or aspiring to, would even watch TotP nowadays. Its certainly not 'inspirational' or part of a 'scene'.
Going on TikTok is far more relevant for new music than a very dated has been of a TV show.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
I’m just reading Blood Sports about Whitewater - it’s startling how casually that generation of politicians was willing to lie through their teeth.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
Yes, but the Tories had chosen IDS to be their leader at the time so the qualification was not met.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
I think we can and have done. She made her bed, she can lie in it.
The powers lie ultimately with the courts, not the Home Secretary, and if the courts approve the decision then that is justice being followed.
No, the power is vested in the HS. What the courts decided was that that decision was not open to challenge by them.
Didn't it go before the SIAC who upheld the decision, including ruling on the issue of her disputed citizenship of another country (saying that the law said she did have it)?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
I think we can and have done. She made her bed, she can lie in it.
The powers lie ultimately with the courts, not the Home Secretary, and if the courts approve the decision then that is justice being followed.
No, the power is vested in the HS. What the courts decided was that that decision was not open to challenge by them.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
Yes, but the Tories had chosen IDS to be their leader at the time so the qualification was not met.
Which is why it scares me that the Cons were somewhat near choosing another Jock Guard as their leader only last month.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
In that case why haven’t the Tory party and various Tory hued governments repudiated the Iraq war? As far as I can see it’s only randoms on the internet that push the big lie stuff, mainly cos they feel a bit sick that they were so comprehensively suckered by Blair especially when the lentil munchers and the ghastly Nats were not.
And, re the LDs and the SNP, the Scottish Trots were too - just to drive the point home.
I think the line is we backed a disastrous war that killed millions and whose effects we are still feeling and will for decades for all the right reasons, the LDs, Nats and Trots opposed this clusterfuck for entirely the wrong reasons.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
He casts doubt on the intelligence, saying "Iraq was an appallingly difficult intelligence target to break".
This if anything supports my case. The Opposition didn't have access to what intelligence there might have been and hence could not afford not to support action in case there was actual intelligence which showed Iraq was a threat.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
Well that is a prime example of me being hoist with my own petard.
I bemoan the fact that we are talking about Shamima Begum, which we did only yesterday, and then I enter into a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the effing Iraq War.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
I believe it’s lack of money and stability. So let’s help to provide that. Sorting our problems AND theirs
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
In that case why haven’t the Tory party and various Tory hued governments repudiated the Iraq war? As far as I can see it’s only randoms on the internet that push the big lie stuff, mainly cos they feel a bit sick that they were so comprehensively suckered by Blair especially when the lentil munchers and the ghastly Nats were not.
And, re the LDs and the SNP, the Scottish Trots were too - just to drive the point home.
I think the line is we backed a disastrous war that killed millions and whose effects we are still feeling and will for decades for the right reasons, the LDs, Nats and Trots opposed this clusterfuck for entirely the wrong reasons.
Iraq opens up all kinds of uncomfortable debates about imperialism and patriotism. The "UN" missions in Iraq and Afghanistan were a great deal about western control and extraction of resources and very little about concern for the natives. So yes, long after the event when both countries and the whole area have been torn apart its easy to look back and say "that was wrong, it was a lie, send Bush and Blair to the Hague".
What though is the difference between this particular piece of western imposition and all the others we are told we are to be proud of? Either imperialism and taking over someone else's country to stamp them down and exploit them is bad or its acceptable.
I'd be happy for big powers to agree never again to invade and smash places up. But I am not that naive...
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
Just to keep your blood on the boil - do you realise that the BBC is about to air a multi-episode podcast entitled "I am not a Monster"?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
They certainly have done so to others, and have held her for years. Being British doesn't prevent prosecution.
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
I never engaged with the citizenship argument. I dunno whether that was legitimate or not. I trust the English courts to decide
They say it’s ok, so be it
But as I’ve said multiple times, begum sacrificed her right to English justice when she willingly went to Syria to behead people and have Yazidi sex slaves. And was then unrepentant about it six years later
Let the Syrians or Iraqis try her and punish her, as they see fit. They are her victims
Absent the Iraq war it’s interesting to speculate what would have happened to Saddam in the Arab Spring. Possible that a civil war there would have triggered NATO strikes Libya style, and possibly a regime change. What would Russia have done? Or Iran? Probably a similar level of chaos but perhaps without IS as they wouldn’t have had the opportunities afforded by the Sunni rebellions in the mid 2000s. Maybe a different outcome in next door Syria, or maybe not.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
I believe it’s lack of money and stability. So let’s help to provide that. Sorting our problems AND theirs
Good, lets move on from the Begum argument. "Money and Stability" is the way to resolve not just her and the rest of the ISIS lunacy, its the way to stop rich countries being swamped by refugees from warzones and desperately poor countries and places which will be desperately hard to live in as the climate changes.
It strikes me that there is something we can do with chunks of Africa and the Middle East to help them and help us - enormous solar farms. Now that solar has become relatively cheap and efficient instead of fighting over Afghanistan for pipelines, just build solar and export cables. These countries grow wealthy, we get electricity, we avoid a refugee disaster as they all get air conditioning.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
I never engaged with the citizenship argument. I dunno whether that was legitimate or not. I trust the English courts to decide
They say it’s ok, so be it
But as I’ve said multiple times, begum sacrificed her right to English justice when she willingly went to Syria to behead people and have Yazidi sex slaves. And was then unrepentant about it six years later
Let the Syrians or Iraqis try her and punish her, as they see fit. They are her victims
Would anyone complain if they just shot her?
Good point. Much easier to shoot the people whose views we disagree with. Or perhaps render them to a third country and they can do it.
I mean what exactly do we go to war for these days if not to prevent this type of behaviour?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.
She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.
She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.
As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
Well, not exactly. I prioritise unproblematic immigrants (for example, Afghans who actually helped us - why the hell are they STILL in B&Bs awaiting rehoming??) over immigrants with dodgy backgrounds. The issue with Begum is that she's as British as I am - rather more, in fact, as I'm spent half my life abroad. Her opinions are irrelevant - she was entitled to think whatever she liked about ISIS, we're a country where we have freedom of opinion. The issue is whether the exercise of power to remove nationality is appropriate in thsi case (if it ever is), and I don't think it is, because of the grooming and the weakness of the claim that she could be Bangladeshi if she chose.
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
Like you I dislike removing nationality. It’s the start of a slippery slope.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
He casts doubt on the intelligence, saying "Iraq was an appallingly difficult intelligence target to break".
This if anything supports my case. The Opposition didn't have access to what intelligence there might have been and hence could not afford not to support action in case there was actual intelligence which showed Iraq was a threat.
Lots of Tories like Ken Clarke disagreed. There was a process of UN weapons inspections to address the concerns of a threat from WMDs. It was not a case of war or do nothing.
Sadly I believe that the inadequacies in HM Loyal Opposition at various different times means that we went to war over WMDs in 2003 when we probably shouldn't have, and we failed to go to war over WMDs in 2013 when we probably should have done so.
In the future to come my feeling is that we will regret not doing more, earlier, to help Ukraine, but I suppose it's possible I'll be wrong and we'll regret acting instead.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Fascinating. Also a bit mad. And not up to speed with modern tech. These machines spew these images if you want them or not
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.
She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.
She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.
As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
Well, not exactly. I prioritise unproblematic immigrants (for example, Afghans who actually helped us - why the hell are they STILL in B&Bs awaiting rehoming??) over immigrants with dodgy backgrounds. The issue with Begum is that she's as British as I am - rather more, in fact, as I'm spent half my life abroad. Her opinions are irrelevant - she was entitled to think whatever she liked about ISIS, we're a country where we have freedom of opinion. The issue is whether the exercise of power to remove nationality is appropriate in thsi case (if it ever is), and I don't think it is, because of the grooming and the weakness of the claim that she could be Bangladeshi if she chose.
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
Like you I dislike removing nationality. It’s the start of a slippery slope.
I think it makes people with potential dual nationality (Irish people?) very nervous.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Her offences were mainly committed overseas. Why should we bring her to justice and imprison her, if guilty. for offences committed on Syrian soil ? Let her stand trial there.
My new Saudi mate that I met in Cairo reckons he and his other ISIS graduates were treated like minor celebs once they got back to the Kingdom. He shat it off before seeing combat against the Peshmerga and legged it home through Jordan.
He tried faking sickness to avoid combat first and came up with constipation as the mitigating condition. The ISIS doctor (from London) just stuck a garden hose up his arse and turned it on full.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
They certainly have done so to others, and have held her for years. Being British doesn't prevent prosecution.
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
She’s a self confessed member of ISIS and that alone is a capital crime in Syria and Iraq
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
In retrospect, he appears an honourable, clever and capable politician: Robin Cook. The likes of which we don’t see any more
Or is that nostalgia getting the better of me?
I'm sure there is chapter and verse on Cook's failings, but, at the risk of using a cliche, he got the biggest call in his career right. How many politicians can say the same?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.
She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.
She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.
As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
Well, not exactly. I prioritise unproblematic immigrants (for example, Afghans who actually helped us - why the hell are they STILL in B&Bs awaiting rehoming??) over immigrants with dodgy backgrounds. The issue with Begum is that she's as British as I am - rather more, in fact, as I'm spent half my life abroad. Her opinions are irrelevant - she was entitled to think whatever she liked about ISIS, we're a country where we have freedom of opinion. The issue is whether the exercise of power to remove nationality is appropriate in thsi case (if it ever is), and I don't think it is, because of the grooming and the weakness of the claim that she could be Bangladeshi if she chose.
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
Like you I dislike removing nationality. It’s the start of a slippery slope.
I think it makes people with potential dual nationality (Irish people?) very nervous.
It also discriminates against those with an overseas parent.
I’m surprised it has not fallen foul of anti discrimination laws.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
In retrospect, he appears an honourable, clever and capable politician: Robin Cook. The likes of which we don’t see any more
Or is that nostalgia getting the better of me?
I'm sure there is chapter and verse on Cook's failings, but, at the risk of using a cliche, he got the biggest call in his career right. How many politicians can say the same?
Yes, he really called Iraq right. I clearly remember his resignation speech on the issue. It shames all of us who supported the war, in retrospect. And I mean ME (not that it matters)
I was far too glib in my support for that war. It was a squalid moral disaster which hastened the decline of the west. Ugh
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
At which point ignore that bit.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
I never engaged with the citizenship argument. I dunno whether that was legitimate or not. I trust the English courts to decide
They say it’s ok, so be it
But as I’ve said multiple times, begum sacrificed her right to English justice when she willingly went to Syria to behead people and have Yazidi sex slaves. And was then unrepentant about it six years later
Let the Syrians or Iraqis try her and punish her, as they see fit. They are her victims
Would anyone complain if they just shot her?
Good point. Much easier to shoot the people whose views we disagree with. Or perhaps render them to a third country and they can do it.
I mean what exactly do we go to war for these days if not to prevent this type of behaviour?
We go to war for reasons of honour, interest, and fear.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Fascinating. Also a bit mad. And not up to speed with modern tech. These machines spew these images if you want them or not
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
If you think about it you cannot differentiate. If the offence was restricted to real children you would in every case need to prove that child actually existed which in the vast majority of cases would simply be impossible. If your stable diffusion software produces such an image I suggest that you discard it. Pronto. And never, ever send it to anyone, even for a second opinion.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
They certainly have done so to others, and have held her for years. Being British doesn't prevent prosecution.
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
She’s a self confessed member of ISIS and that alone is a capital crime in Syria and Iraq
Either you are wrong about that or despite holding her 6 years they have no evidence she is a member, or for reasons of their own are not enforcing that law.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
He casts doubt on the intelligence, saying "Iraq was an appallingly difficult intelligence target to break".
This if anything supports my case. The Opposition didn't have access to what intelligence there might have been and hence could not afford not to support action in case there was actual intelligence which showed Iraq was a threat.
Robin Cook of course was in the government and had seen the evidence - and was confident enough to say Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction and was not a clear and present threat. I may be misremembering, but I think didn't Blair publish/share that dodgy dossier with the opposition?
I agree though that it would be better to let the opposition (some of them at least) see all relevant intelligence/attend briefings etc. if it is the significant case in justifying a decision to go to war.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Fascinating. Also a bit mad. And not up to speed with modern tech. These machines spew these images if you want them or not
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
The problem is how to prove whether the image is derived from a photo of a victim, or generated by an AI (although, ultimately, how does the AI know how to draw underage nudity unless it exists in its training database?)
You don't want child abusers to escape conviction because it's difficult to prove the images they have weren't produced by an AI.
Why would any government let her return when there is a chance she would engage in a terrorist action when back in this country ?
Because if she did so it would end the career of any politician who allowed her to return.
Different people will have different reasons but for me right at the top because it significantly changes the whole relationship between citizen and state for millions of Brits who were born abroad, or simply had parents who were born abroad. In comparison minor interest because the courts are being kafka-esque and the security services have been lying, at least by omission.
For me its not about sympathy for Begum, no problems with her being locked up whatever age she was, but being made stateless should be a no-no for a Brit.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
I believe it’s lack of money and stability. So let’s help to provide that. Sorting our problems AND theirs
Good, lets move on from the Begum argument. "Money and Stability" is the way to resolve not just her and the rest of the ISIS lunacy, its the way to stop rich countries being swamped by refugees from warzones and desperately poor countries and places which will be desperately hard to live in as the climate changes.
It strikes me that there is something we can do with chunks of Africa and the Middle East to help them and help us - enormous solar farms. Now that solar has become relatively cheap and efficient instead of fighting over Afghanistan for pipelines, just build solar and export cables. These countries grow wealthy, we get electricity, we avoid a refugee disaster as they all get air conditioning.
That all sounds great as in principle I agree but for it to work the wealth has to be shared out. The reality of oil has been it has destabilised the region not helped it. Mineral and other wealth has not helped nations.
Why would any government let her return when there is a chance she would engage in a terrorist action when back in this country ?
Because if she did so it would end the career of any politician who allowed her to return.
That's true but is it germane to the legal position? She was 15 and a British Citizen. These seem crucial factors to me but what do I know?
I am concerned that if she returns a circus of advocacy and celebrity will surround her at great taxpayer expense. Perhaps the best option is to allow her return on condition of residence with her family (inc financial support) and then do nothing other than put her on a terrorist watch list?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Fascinating. Also a bit mad. And not up to speed with modern tech. These machines spew these images if you want them or not
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
If you think about it you cannot differentiate. If the offence was restricted to real children you would in every case need to prove that child actually existed which in the vast majority of cases would simply be impossible. If your stable diffusion software produces such an image I suggest that you discard it. Pronto. And never, ever send it to anyone, even for a second opinion.
Noted. Useful. Ta
I stand by my assertion that the law will need to be updated to take into account computer models which will churn out these images by the trillion. They will flood the internet. They are created in seconds. And you don’t get any choice
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was trying to avoid the judicial process (such as it is) in Syria by claiming that she was a UK citizen so should face prosecution in the UK.
One answer would be “fine - after you have been prosecuted in Syria”
Another is “you’ve made your bed, now you get to lie in it - you’re no longer a UK citizen because you chose to leave the UK and team up with an enemy that was in conflict with the UK”
In no circumstance is the correct answer “oh dear, please come back to the Uk for tea and biscuits and avoid the consequences of your choices and crimes committed in Syria”
Naturally she (and her supporters in the press) want the last option
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
So anyone who joins the Hitler Youth aged 15, participates eagerly in the war, is an unprotesting witness to the Holocaust, and who gets arrested in 1946 in Chile and EVEN THEN can barely express regrets for anyone killed or enslaved by the Nazis is also “a victim”?
Give it a rest
As I say the evidence is mixed at best for her. But giving the HS the power to strip someone who is born in this country of their citizenship? Not for me.
Yes I agree on that small particular point. I find it questionable - but let the lawyers argue it out
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Yes they are. Possession of drawings and tracings of an image of a child protrayed sexually or in a sexual context is illegal. It is the image that is illegal and its origin matters not. The fact that there is not an actual victim behind this image may be mitigatory but it would not be a defence.
Fascinating. Also a bit mad. And not up to speed with modern tech. These machines spew these images if you want them or not
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
To summarise: some guys have programmed a computer so that it sends out child pornography to unwitting parties who make innocent requests for computer art.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.
She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.
She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.
As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
Well, not exactly. I prioritise unproblematic immigrants (for example, Afghans who actually helped us - why the hell are they STILL in B&Bs awaiting rehoming??) over immigrants with dodgy backgrounds. The issue with Begum is that she's as British as I am - rather more, in fact, as I'm spent half my life abroad. Her opinions are irrelevant - she was entitled to think whatever she liked about ISIS, we're a country where we have freedom of opinion. The issue is whether the exercise of power to remove nationality is appropriate in thsi case (if it ever is), and I don't think it is, because of the grooming and the weakness of the claim that she could be Bangladeshi if she chose.
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
Like you I dislike removing nationality. It’s the start of a slippery slope.
I think it makes people with potential dual nationality (Irish people?) very nervous.
As I understand it, people with Irish nationality are uniquely not at risk. The British Nationality Act of 1949 prohibits treating people with Irish nationality as foreigners, and HMG have no ability to remove Irish citizenship. If Begum was Irish she wouldn't be in the difficulties she is in now.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
They certainly have done so to others, and have held her for years. Being British doesn't prevent prosecution.
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
She’s a self confessed member of ISIS and that alone is a capital crime in Syria and Iraq
Either you are wrong about that or despite holding her 6 years they have no evidence she is a member, or for reasons of their own are not enforcing that law.
What she has said on its own is evidence enough. A confession but not under duress.
And not coincidentally what Jackson named his pet chimp.
Yep, there are so many geniuses lurking in our past with only a grainy bit of film or a crackly recording to testify to their talent.
I have a soft spot for Bojangles because my great uncle Calum, a a taciturn Lewisman and merchant marine engineer let drop that he'd seen him in a Manhattan nightclub in the 1930s, and what a memorable sight it was. High praise from my slightly scary nunky.
There was also a men's boutique in 1970s Aberdeen called Mr Bojangles that sold the big collared, swirly shirts and massive flares of that period, not quite so resonant.
Should we anticipate the Prince of Wales adapting to this policy shortly?
The Moskva has led the charge.
My car has countless warning lights - most of which I ignore - surely the Prince of Wales had a "Starboard Prop Grease Low" warning light.
Many, many ships, aircraft and cars have been destroyed by people willingly disbelieving what is right in front of their eyes.
The FAA crashed a Hawk in the last days of 736 by unplugging an MCD on the engine because they were convinced it was giving a false indication. It wasn't and the engine blew up on its next flight.
Why would any government let her return when there is a chance she would engage in a terrorist action when back in this country ?
Because if she did so it would end the career of any politician who allowed her to return.
Different people will have different reasons but for me right at the top because it significantly changes the whole relationship between citizen and state for millions of Brits who were born abroad, or simply had parents who were born abroad. In comparison minor interest because the courts are being kafka-esque and the security services have been lying, at least by omission.
For me its not about sympathy for Begum, no problems with her being locked up whatever age she was, but being made stateless should be a no-no for a Brit.
Exactly, it makes the citizenship of those we invited into this country and gave citizenship to something less than the full thing. That is wrong and the fact that it is being applied to their children born here is even more wrong.
As for Begum, if she is tried in the country where she was a party to ISIS crimes and they choose to execute her, well, so be it. I won't be losing a lot of sleep over it. My concerns are the fact that she is British and should have remained so and the monsters who did groom her here need to be hunted down and severely punished.
Well that is a prime example of me being hoist with my own petard.
I bemoan the fact that we are talking about Shamima Begum, which we did only yesterday, and then I enter into a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the effing Iraq War.
We could always talk about Scottish Independence. I received this leaflet with 10 key facts about independence.
The leaflet seemed very confident there would be an independence referendum on 19th October 2023.
Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.
The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
Bollocks. Anyone with half an active brain cell could tell that the whole thing was illegal, immoral, irresponsible and ill-conceived. Bleedin' obvious in 2003, and bleeding obvious in 2022.
He casts doubt on the intelligence, saying "Iraq was an appallingly difficult intelligence target to break".
This if anything supports my case. The Opposition didn't have access to what intelligence there might have been and hence could not afford not to support action in case there was actual intelligence which showed Iraq was a threat.
No, not true. IDS was given access to the relevant intelligence.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Why don’t the Syrians and Iraqis have the right to bring her to justice?
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
They don't seem to be rushing to do so - why is that?
They certainly have done so to others, and have held her for years. Being British doesn't prevent prosecution.
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
She’s a self confessed member of ISIS and that alone is a capital crime in Syria and Iraq
Either you are wrong about that or despite holding her 6 years they have no evidence she is a member, or for reasons of their own are not enforcing that law.
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was trying to avoid the judicial process (such as it is) in Syria by claiming that she was a UK citizen so should face prosecution in the UK.
One answer would be “fine - after you have been prosecuted in Syria”
Another is “you’ve made your bed, now you get to lie in it - you’re no longer a UK citizen because you chose to leave the UK and team up with an enemy that was in conflict with the UK”
In no circumstance is the correct answer “oh dear, please come back to the Uk for tea and biscuits and avoid the consequences of your choices and crimes committed in Syria”
Naturally she (and her supporters in the press) want the last option
Were we actually in a state of war with Isis? Could it be described as a state?
Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.
Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.
Would a man be getting this sympathy?
Indeed
Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win
She was not 15 then. She was 21
This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune
It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her
There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
I think that you are missing the consequences of grooming. She joined a cult. An evil, vicious, monstrous cult that pretends to be a religion and brainwashes its adherents. I agree that we should be highly sceptical that she is fully recovered but I am still open to the idea that she is a victim.
Of course she is a victim. She believed she was on a mission from God to travel to Syria and have babies with God's chosen fighters ousting the infadel from God's lands. She didn't think that until after her grooming.
I am not in that camp either. There is such a thing as automony and personal responsibility. I think the evidence is mixed at best. But I remain uncomfortable with the powers given to the Home Secretary in this regard and do not think that the UK can simply wash its hands of her.
She was groomed. She then committed serious offences. She is ours to bring to justice.
Her offences were mainly committed overseas. Why should we bring her to justice and imprison her, if guilty. for offences committed on Syrian soil ? Let her stand trial there.
They are offences here. Would be yet another example of British exceptionalism if we have our citizens commit offences abroad then remove their citizenship so they become Someone Else's Problem.
Well that is a prime example of me being hoist with my own petard.
I bemoan the fact that we are talking about Shamima Begum, which we did only yesterday, and then I enter into a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the effing Iraq War.
We could always talk about Scottish Independence. I received this leaflet with 10 key facts about independence.
The leaflet seemed very confident there would be an independence referendum on 19th October 2023.
Yes. We need to talk more about Scottish independence and Indyref2 on here 👍
Should we anticipate the Prince of Wales adapting to this policy shortly?
The Moskva has led the charge.
My car has countless warning lights - most of which I ignore - surely the Prince of Wales had a "Starboard Prop Grease Low" warning light.
That 'failure to grease propeller shaft' story in the Telegraph is being treated with some scepticism on-line. Another theory is that the propeller struck something: either the seabed or something else in the water. Which might make sense in the area the failure occurred in.
Incidentally, I've also seen it reported that it is going to drydock in Amsterdam...
Comments
To me, Wokeness is easily as big a threat to America as Trumpism. Indeed it is possibly worse, and Wokeness threatens the entire West
I know PB doesn’t agree with me but then PB thought coronavirus was a boring Chinese flu in feb 2020
Ascent was in May but footage only released this week according to the article.
I'm impressed it can fly at that altitude.
I put it to you that this is self interested bullshit
I’m a Bill Bojangles Robinson man myself.
Give it a rest
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Bubbles
And not coincidentally what Jackson named his pet chimp.
You can't remove someone's nationality on the basis that someone THINKS they have the right to citizenship elsewhere...
Especially when the other country categorically states that that person does not qualify for citizenship...
But in this instance they were bound by having inferior or no intelligence so the choice was easy - if it was between backing the war and it turns out there was no justification; and not backing the war and it turns out there was justification, they were always going to go down the former route.
The powers lie ultimately with the courts, not the Home Secretary, and if the courts approve the decision then that is justice being followed.
Can we move on to the unexplored benefits, or otherwise of Brexit or something.
Whether or not you much of a damn about her, but the principle is very important indeed.
Interesting if brief piece on the difference between the public and HMG on what income is requirted for decent/normal living standards.
It should be noted that a laptop or decent mobile is now increasingly essential above all if one is on UC or similar. And that I have noticed foodbanks appealing for old mobiles to re-sim and hand out to their clients, I assume for precisely that reason.
They say it’s ok, so be it
But as I’ve said multiple times, begum sacrificed her right to English justice when she willingly went to Syria to behead people and have Yazidi
sex slaves. And was then unrepentant about it six years later
Let the Syrians or Iraqis try her and punish her, as they see fit. They are her victims
As a cause celebre it's awkward as her opinions were repellent. But justice should not hinge on whether its application is awkward.
British music is doing quite well both domestically and abroad, but next to nobody young streaming or making music, or aspiring to, would even watch TotP nowadays. Its certainly not 'inspirational' or part of a 'scene'.
Going on TikTok is far more relevant for new music than a very dated has been of a TV show.
Incidentally can I get your expert opinion on something?
I’ve been faffing about with Stable Diffusion the image making AI. As may be obvious
Some of the images it coughs up are extremely dodgy. Let’s file them as “underage nudity”
What would happen if you were discovered to have these images? They are images invented ex nihilo, they depict people that never existed in situations that never happened. Are they still illegal?
I can’t get my head around it
Maybe ‘‘twas always this
It was Syrians and Iraqis that she helped to enslave, torture and kill
Robin Cook was pretty clear in 2003.
This if anything supports my case. The Opposition didn't have access to what intelligence there might have been and hence could not afford not to support action in case there was actual intelligence which showed Iraq was a threat.
Or is that nostalgia getting the better of me?
I bemoan the fact that we are talking about Shamima Begum, which we did only yesterday, and then I enter into a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the effing Iraq War.
What though is the difference between this particular piece of western imposition and all the others we are told we are to be proud of? Either imperialism and taking over someone else's country to stamp them down and exploit them is bad or its acceptable.
I'd be happy for big powers to agree never again to invade and smash places up. But I am not that naive...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08yblkf/episodes/downloads
Indeed is there any evidence that she was involved in ISIS crimes? Being a sympathiser is not itself a crime, neither is being married to an ISIS fighter.
It strikes me that there is something we can do with chunks of Africa and the Middle East to help them and help us - enormous solar farms. Now that solar has become relatively cheap and efficient instead of fighting over Afghanistan for pipelines, just build solar and export cables. These countries grow wealthy, we get electricity, we avoid a refugee disaster as they all get air conditioning.
I mean what exactly do we go to war for these days if not to prevent this type of behaviour?
Sadly I believe that the inadequacies in HM Loyal Opposition at various different times means that we went to war over WMDs in 2003 when we probably shouldn't have, and we failed to go to war over WMDs in 2013 when we probably should have done so.
In the future to come my feeling is that we will regret not doing more, earlier, to help Ukraine, but I suppose it's possible I'll be wrong and we'll regret acting instead.
You can put in an entirely innocuous prompt: “woman, garden, photo 1947” etc etc and you often get startling and disturbing responses
The law might need revisiting ASAP. God knows how you frame it
He tried faking sickness to avoid combat first and came up with constipation as the mitigating condition. The ISIS doctor (from London) just stuck a garden hose up his arse and turned it on full.
Why would any government let her return when there is a chance she would engage in a terrorist action when back in this country ?
Because if she did so it would end the career of any politician who allowed her to return.
I’m surprised it has not fallen foul of anti discrimination laws.
I was far too glib in my support for that war. It was a squalid moral disaster which hastened the decline of the west. Ugh
I agree though that it would be better to let the opposition (some of them at least) see all relevant intelligence/attend briefings etc. if it is the significant case in justifying a decision to go to war.
You don't want child abusers to escape conviction because it's difficult to prove the images they have weren't produced by an AI.
Of the five most recent polls:
Ipsos, Sentio, and Novus all give a marginal lead to the parties of the Right. SIFO and SKOP give a marginal lead to the parties of the Left.
For me its not about sympathy for Begum, no problems with her being locked up whatever age she was, but being made stateless should be a no-no for a Brit.
Solar cannot be allowed to do the same.
Octopus Energy are going big on Moroccan solar.
I am concerned that if she returns a circus of advocacy and celebrity will surround her at great taxpayer expense. Perhaps the best option is to allow her return on condition of residence with her family (inc financial support) and then do nothing other than put her on a terrorist watch list?
I stand by my assertion that the law will need to be updated to take into account computer models which will churn out these images by the trillion. They will flood the internet. They are created in seconds. And you don’t get any choice
One answer would be “fine - after you have been prosecuted in Syria”
Another is “you’ve made your bed, now you get to lie in it - you’re no longer a UK citizen because you chose to leave the UK and team up with an enemy that was in conflict with the UK”
In no circumstance is the correct answer “oh dear, please come back to the Uk for tea and biscuits and avoid the consequences of your choices and crimes committed in Syria”
Naturally she (and her supporters in the press) want the last option
Existing law should be able to cope with that.
So there must be other reasons.
I have a soft spot for Bojangles because my great uncle Calum, a a taciturn Lewisman and merchant marine engineer let drop that he'd seen him in a Manhattan nightclub in the 1930s, and what a memorable sight it was. High praise from my slightly scary nunky.
There was also a men's boutique in 1970s Aberdeen called Mr Bojangles that sold the big collared, swirly shirts and massive flares of that period, not quite so resonant.
The FAA crashed a Hawk in the last days of 736 by unplugging an MCD on the engine because they were convinced it was giving a false indication. It wasn't and the engine blew up on its next flight.
As for Begum, if she is tried in the country where she was a party to ISIS crimes and they choose to execute her, well, so be it. I won't be losing a lot of sleep over it. My concerns are the fact that she is British and should have remained so and the monsters who did groom her here need to be hunted down and severely punished.
The leaflet seemed very confident there would be an independence referendum on 19th October 2023.
Incidentally, I've also seen it reported that it is going to drydock in Amsterdam...