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All in politics should take note of this polling – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    Mott the Hoople were from Herefordshire, where I grew up. I remember going to a gig in some tiny Hereford pub in 1982 and being told two of the band on stage were members of Mott the Hoople

    Remarkable, really. A fairly major band with some big hits, and that association with Bowie. From little market town, Hereford. Ditto: the Pretenders. Also huge

    There is virtually no equal for the UK 1960-2000: in terms producing major musicians and bands, per capita. Every tiny town seems to have turfed up a star of some kind

    There IS one valid comparison tho, which is why I say "virtually". It is Tuscany in the early-mid Renaissance. Every sizeable village seems to have furnished the globe with a superb artist. You can go in any average Florentine church and find the grave - or art - of artists no famed worldwide

    Begs the question. Why there, why then?

    Why music in Britain from 1960-2000? Why art in Tuscany from 1350-1600?
    I can't speak for Tuscany, but with UK music it'd have been something like the ease with which UK artists could get some gigs, get a manager, cut a demo, get on the radio, get on Top of the Pops, and then have that recognition propel them to European success, and then in some cases to the US. Working men's clubs, London, the English language, Radio 1, Top of the Pops, all played their part.

    The BBC should be asked to bring TOTP back, even if it never picks up the viewership of its heyday. It's a part of that jigsaw puzzle.
    It wasn’t just TOTP there were so many other shows as well that featured pop stars of the day. Blue Peter used to regularly have them on in the sixties but prime time and kids tv featured such gems as whittakers world of music, lift of with Ayshea, get it together, razzmatazz, set of 6, Marc. All of the Saturday morning kids shows and when MTV started it was purely pop,videos. The list is Long and you just don’t get that anymore as childrens TV has been shunted away and light entertainment really doesn’t feature much modern music. Even The Young Ones had a pop segment in it. We are also multi channel now. Something we weren’t even up to 2000. Certainly not,like now.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited September 2022
    Glancing at the papers, looks like the “i” has more awful best PM v Truss polling for Starmer. BJO is somewhat right Starmer is still a bit of a drag on his party.

    But then I am writing from prejudice here - not anti Starmer prejudice but how can he not be double digits ahead from what is no more convincing than an inflatable sex doll, on best 4 PM polling 😧
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    They probably don't. But they might respond surprisingly well. Borisovian boosterism has had its day, for now

    C'mon Liz, give us our "blood, sweat and tears"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    In a similar way in 2007 voters said they much preferred the dull, serious and honest Brown to the more charismatic Blair. Starmer also selling himself on his honesty in comparison to Boris, we will see how it works out.

    On pure honesty the Tories best replacement for Boris would probably have been Tugendhat
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    They probably don't. But they might respond surprisingly well. Borisovian boosterism has had its day, for now

    C'mon Liz, give us our "blood, sweat and tears"
    Talk is cheap.

    She would need some blood, toil, tears and sweat in practice.

    First policy being a 100% tax on all money received from Russian sources and PPE contracts.

    If you want the people to give their blood, toil, tears and sweat then the privileged must do so first and be seen to be doing so.
  • The legend that is Micheal Cockerell makes a film on Johnson's time in office and the BBC sticks it on Newsnight (edited) and the full version on BBC News 24 sometime over the weekend.

    Time was this would be prime time BBC2 slot with weeks of adverts between programmes.

    More sign of Beeb cowering before Nadine and the rest of them?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 107,357
    Germany's emergency cash support to help families facing high energy bills through the winter delayed for 18 months due to chaotic record keeping

    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1565458713015734272?s=20&t=ABVv_LZDoSA-vRWjc2jGOA
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    One obvious group not mentioned there- those who have retired having paid in all their lives, just not enough.

    And as a recent Telegraph article put it,
    ‘It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining’
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    They probably don't. But they might respond surprisingly well. Borisovian boosterism has had its day, for now

    C'mon Liz, give us our "blood, sweat and tears"
    The advantage of an honest, if dismal, account of the state of the country is that you can make the case for the pain and sacrifice leading to a better future. That fits with the essential underlying Christian ethos of the country, of redemption being the reward for suffering. It makes present suffering easier to bear.

    If you're in pain and suffering but you're told the country is doing great, then that's only going to make you pissed off at not getting your share of the fun.

    The problem for the Tories is that they've been in charge for the last dozen years. If they level with the public and admit the situation of the country has deteriorated over that period then the public might want someone else to try and fix it.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,994

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    One obvious group not mentioned there- those who have retired having paid in all their lives, just not enough.

    And as a recent Telegraph article put it,
    ‘It's time for the young to pay for us and stop complaining’
    Indeed.

    There's no shortage of groups which need their delusions to be exposed.
  • moonshine said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
    LOL.

    But - to be serious:

    In the interests of the site and Mike's legal fees I strongly suggest there is no further speculation on this matter.
  • I can see Truss having some appeal to the Clarkson vote (the stuff about speed limits was very revealing) but I doubt she'll do well with the electorate as a whole. But who knows?

    I think I know.

    She will bomb. Totally. Deluded and out of touch and driven by her gut wild manic ideas that can't face reality.

    The membership have done another IDS.

    Still, popcorn sales will be up.



  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    moonshine said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
    I was wondering exactly the same thing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    They probably don't. But they might respond surprisingly well. Borisovian boosterism has had its day, for now

    C'mon Liz, give us our "blood, sweat and tears"
    Talk is cheap.

    She would need some blood, toil, tears and sweat in practice.

    First policy being a 100% tax on all money received from Russian sources and PPE contracts.

    If you want the people to give their blood, toil, tears and sweat then the privileged must do so first and be seen to be doing so.
    Yes I agree

    Probably need to send a couple of rich corrupt fucks to jail as well. Maybe a couple of hundred

    Show that you mean it. Make the trains run on time. Clamp down on the greedy rich AND the workshy workers. Tell the overpaid lawyers and doctors to do one. Fuck the Woke: in toto. Just get rid of all Wokeness, overnight

    This REALLY could work. Chances of her doing it hover at roughly less than 0.1 percent
  • Sienna Rodgers
    @siennamarla
    NEW: Labour NEC results are in 👇

    CLP section:

    Labour to Win gets 4 places
    Momentum gets 3 places
    Open Labour gets 1 place
    JVL/other groups get 1 place

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1565428276344021000
  • Westminster Voting Intention: Labour 42% (–), Conservative 31% (-2), Liberal Democrat 12% (-1), Green 7% (+3), Scottish National Party 4% (+1), Reform UK 3% (-1), Other 2% (-1) Changes +/- 28 August via @RedfieldWilton
  • She will bomb. Totally. Deluded and out of touch and driven by her gut wild manic ideas that can't face reality.

    The membership have done another IDS.

    I don't think there's any comparison between IDS vs Ken Clarke and Truss vs Sunak. You're talking as if she were Steve Baker.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    moonshine said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
    No
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    edited September 2022

    moonshine said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
    LOL.

    But - to be serious:

    In the interests of the site and Mike's legal fees I strongly suggest there is no further speculation on this matter.
    Oh I'll speculate further - in my head.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    I don't envy the young very much in this hostile and puritan world

    But one thing I do envy them is the Shuffle Dance and Pascal Letoublon's Friendship

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh4sjcsIE_E

    That is the BEST DANCE EVER. They have THAT

    It is sexy, exuberant, clever, addictive, feral, hypnotic, and fiendish in the best way

    I have actually tried to learn this dance, In my late 50s. It is impossible. You need ankles made of elastic, ie ankles aged 13-23

    God bless those that can. Superb
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 1,059
    Hre's the latest on the US Senate elections from Larry Sabato's team: https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/senate-rating-changes-arizona-pennsylvania-to-leans-democratic/

    (FWIW, I don't seen anything implausible in the conclusions.)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,052
    edited September 2022

    Sienna Rodgers
    @siennamarla
    NEW: Labour NEC results are in 👇

    CLP section:

    Labour to Win gets 4 places
    Momentum gets 3 places
    Open Labour gets 1 place
    JVL/other groups get 1 place

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1565428276344021000

    Interesting - a pro-Starmer win but all groups represented with some personal votes playing a part. LtW is the Starmerist centre-right, Open Labour is largely a vehicle for the hugely popular centre-left Ann Black, Momentum we all know, and the sole Jewish Voice for Labour member (who I voted for with Black and various unelected people) is an elderly leftist who was left off the Momentum slate but lots of us like personally. Transferable votes produced the nuanced outcome (corrected as I misunderstood the system)).
  • Leon said:

    I don't envy the young very much in this hostile and puritan world

    But one thing I do envy them is the Shuffle Dance and Pascal Letoublon's Friendship

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh4sjcsIE_E

    That is the BEST DANCE EVER. They have THAT

    It is sexy, exuberant, clever, addictive, feral, hypnotic, and fiendish in the best way

    I have actually tried to learn this dance, In my late 50s. It is impossible. You need ankles made of elastic, ie ankles aged 13-23

    God bless those that can. Superb

    yes stick to Dad dancing Leon.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    I don't envy the young very much in this hostile and puritan world

    But one thing I do envy them is the Shuffle Dance and Pascal Letoublon's Friendship

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh4sjcsIE_E

    That is the BEST DANCE EVER. They have THAT

    It is sexy, exuberant, clever, addictive, feral, hypnotic, and fiendish in the best way

    I have actually tried to learn this dance, In my late 50s. It is impossible. You need ankles made of elastic, ie ankles aged 13-23

    God bless those that can. Superb

    yes stick to Dad dancing Leon.
    Yes. It’s best
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 82,567
    edited September 2022
    Leon said:



    I have actually tried to learn this dance, In my late 50s.

    Sounds like your most daring adventure to date.
  • kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    Is it fair to conclude this relates to THE FINLAND RUMOUR?
    LOL.

    But - to be serious:

    In the interests of the site and Mike's legal fees I strongly suggest there is no further speculation on this matter.
    Oh I'll speculate further - in my head.
    Does it matter for political betting purposes? I guess it will mean the end of a career and a name crossed off Liz Truss's list of potential ministers.
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    The UK is not competing with countries that “pay less”. It is - or ought to be - competing at the top of the value chain with countries that, actually, pay more.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    It's certainly what voters need to hear in my opinion. They may not like it.
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    If Johnson's resignation honours list isn't "controversial" I shall be disappointed.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    Dynamo said:

    I was expecting this to break.

    A cabinet minister and a high-ranking aide at No 10 Downing Street continued to work in Boris Johnson’s government despite allegations of sexual misconduct against them, according to reports.

    Two women have given first-hand accounts of what they claim happened to them when one was assaulted and the other groped by political figures, both now in senior roles.

    A former parliamentary staff member for the Conservative party, who wished to remain anonymous, relayed details of a sexual assault by an MP who is currently a cabinet minister.

    She told Sky News’s The Open Secret podcast: “I was sexually assaulted by someone who’s now a cabinet minister, and I was in my early 20s and didn’t really know how to deal with it. I was super drunk. He’s feeding me more wine and I’m already quite obviously tanked.


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/01/no-10-retains-cabinet-minister-and-aide-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-reports

    If Johnson's resignation honours list isn't "controversial" I shall be disappointed.
    It can hardly be a Lavender List moment or anyway controversial if it’s merely business as usual for the Boris administration - no one will bat an eye at a single name being rewarded, unlike they did with Wilson’s (which was a head scratcher especially because the rewards were nothing to do with any improper financial transaction in anyway).

    Boris list will be more likely dubbed The Wine List, for the first draft written on a wine list.

    Except. Russian and Chinese money not politically flavour of the month, this year, so will it be airbrushed of Russian and Chinese names?

    If a Goldsmith is rewarded for services to environment and ecology, The Wine List would though share one thing with The Lavender List.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 9,214
    edited September 2022

    Sienna Rodgers
    @siennamarla
    NEW: Labour NEC results are in 👇

    CLP section:

    Labour to Win gets 4 places
    Momentum gets 3 places
    Open Labour gets 1 place
    JVL/other groups get 1 place

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1565428276344021000

    Interesting - a pro-Starmer win but all groups represented with some personal votes playing a part. LtW is the Starmerist centre-right, Open Labour is largely a vehicle for the hugely popular centre-left Ann Black, Momentum we all know, and the sole Jewish Voice for Labour member (who I voted for with Black and various unelected people) is an elderly leftist who was left off the Momentum slate but lots of us like personally. Transferable votes produced the nuanced outcome (corrected as I misunderstood the system)).
    So a 4.4 score draw? It seems like Nick Palmer heading home happiest after this result.

    Starmer fans please explain why your leader isn’t getting results like Manchester City.
  • I can see Truss having some appeal to the Clarkson vote (the stuff about speed limits was very revealing) but I doubt she'll do well with the electorate as a whole. But who knows?

    I think I know.

    She will bomb. Totally. Deluded and out of touch and driven by her gut wild manic ideas that can't face reality.

    The membership have done another IDS.

    Still, popcorn sales will be up.



    But will it bring on a GE? For me that is the question...
  • fear for RacingTV's future when Nadine Dorries hears about this blatant bigging up of the Labour leader
    https://twitter.com/HughRacing/status/1565337407368491008

    ... which refers to Sakheer easily winning at Haydock on Thursday
    https://twitter.com/RacingTV/status/1565336233370603520
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 220
    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Why 30 wards? Aren't there only six wards in Coventry South?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,423
    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Why 30 wards? Aren't there only six wards in Coventry South?
    Good point.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    edited September 2022
    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Why 30 wards? Aren't there only six wards in Coventry South?
    Sorry, it is branches not wards.

    I was quoting the journalist lee harpin who broke the story however from other Twitter comments it looks like branches.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    edited September 2022
  • dixiedean said:

    Why does "a capable leader" score only 54%?
    Do 46% want an incapable one?
    And the danger for Truss is the second one "understands the problems facing Britain" Haven't seen evidence of that as of yet.

    Surely if you disagree with someone you’d want them to be incapable to limit the damage?
  • So having a chat with with a retiree from the world of politics.

    Their bold prediction, within the next 12 months Truss will remove the whip from Gove and Johnson, assuming they remain MPs.

    I hope you said “George, that would be fun, but it ain’t happening”
  • EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No.
  • Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:
    Go, the MOGG

    Mogg the Hoople

    &c
    Roll away the woke

    Sha La La La push push.
    Mott the Hoople were from Herefordshire, where I grew up. I remember going to a gig in some tiny Hereford pub in 1982 and being told two of the band on stage were members of Mott the Hoople

    Remarkable, really. A fairly major band with some big hits, and that association with Bowie. From little market town, Hereford. Ditto: the Pretenders. Also huge

    There is virtually no equal for the UK 1960-2000: in terms producing major musicians and bands, per capita. Every tiny town seems to have turfed up a star of some kind

    There IS one valid comparison tho, which is why I say "virtually". It is Tuscany in the early-mid Renaissance. Every sizeable village seems to have furnished the globe with a superb artist. You can go in any average Florentine church and find the grave - or art - of artists no famed worldwide

    Begs the question. Why there, why then?

    Why music in Britain from 1960-2000? Why art in Tuscany from 1350-1600?
    I can't speak for Tuscany, but with UK music it'd have been something like the ease with which UK artists could get some gigs, get a manager, cut a demo, get on the radio, get on Top of the Pops, and then have that recognition propel them to European success, and then in some cases to the US. Working men's clubs, London, the English language, Radio 1, Top of the Pops, all played their part.

    The BBC should be asked to bring TOTP back, even if it never picks up the viewership of its heyday. It's a part of that jigsaw puzzle.
    The Savile association is too strong for the BBC to tolerate a return. And Savile was far from the only problem.

    Besides, nobody under 50 still watches TV.
  • HYUFD said:

    In a similar way in 2007 voters said they much preferred the dull, serious and honest Brown to the more charismatic Blair. Starmer also selling himself on his honesty in comparison to Boris, we will see how it works out.

    On pure honesty the Tories best replacement for Boris would probably have been Tugendhat

    Out of curiosity, what’s “impure honesty”?
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
    Last day of voting in the Conservative leadership election. Does anyone know when the count starts? I'd expext the results to be leaked before they are announced officially.

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • Sienna Rodgers
    @siennamarla
    NEW: Labour NEC results are in 👇

    CLP section:

    Labour to Win gets 4 places
    Momentum gets 3 places
    Open Labour gets 1 place
    JVL/other groups get 1 place

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1565428276344021000

    Interesting - a pro-Starmer win but all groups represented with some personal votes playing a part. LtW is the Starmerist centre-right, Open Labour is largely a vehicle for the hugely popular centre-left Ann Black, Momentum we all know, and the sole Jewish Voice for Labour member (who I voted for with Black and various unelected people) is an elderly leftist who was left off the Momentum slate but lots of us like personally. Transferable votes produced the nuanced outcome (corrected as I misunderstood the system)).
    So 4 scary ideologies, 4 bland careerists and a popular maverick?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    Carnyx said:

    Taz said:
    Not all 'woke' even by PB Wokefinder General and Corporals standards. Some sound impeccably Johnsonian in timbre.

    And all inplemented or at least updated/confirmed during Tory Party hegemony. Including that of Mr R-M, as Cabinet Minister.
    It shows how meaningless the "War on Woke" actually is. Just a list of things that a stuffy old fool doesn't like.

    Purging the Civil Service is not something that is likely to improve government functioning.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 36,825
    edited September 2022
    Taz said:

    DM_Andy said:

    Taz said:

    Labour rising star of the left, Zarah Sultana, wins the first four wards (out of 30) to vote on the trigger ballot.

    So a good start for her fighting attempts to deselect her.

    https://twitter.com/lmharpin/status/1565434217571426309?s=21&t=xbF3vzuzcvV8ywOGgDkIIA

    Why 30 wards? Aren't there only six wards in Coventry South?
    Sorry, it is branches not wards.

    I was quoting the journalist lee harpin who broke the story however from other Twitter comments it looks like branches.
    I know she can be a bit bonkers politically, but I do have a soft spot for Sultana. I would vote for her.

    Same with the NEC elections. It isn't always about political factions.
  • Boris Johnson partygate legal advice 'absolutely devastating' for inquiry's legitimacy
    Findings will undermine investigation into whether Prime Minister misled House of Commons, source says

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/01/boris-johnson-partygate-legal-advice-absolutely-devastating/ (£££)

    Bad luck Liz, Boris might be sticking around.

    Though the legal advice from Lord Pannick QC was commissioned by the Number 10 unit within the Cabinet Office which might be distancing itself from the report, which also raises the question of parliamentary sovereignty. Popcorn time.
  • Ben Wallace: Submarines rather than ships could be the Royal Navy's future
    Defence Secretary has asked naval chiefs to assess the 'balance' between surface and submarine fleets as he launches a major review

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/02/ben-wallace-submarines-rather-ships-could-royal-navys-future/ (£££)
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,073
    I wonder what people think of this Twitter thread by a journalist apparently working for the Washington Spectator, warning that Putin may be influenced by crazy ideas about an apocalyptic event abolishing the nation state and bringing about something called "a Eurasianist ethnocentric noocracy":
    https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/1564099107903651841

    It seems to me he's putting together 2 and 2 to get several million, but it does shed a lurid light on Putin's associates.
  • The case for bringing Shamima Begum back is now irrefutable
    The so-called Isis bride is a child victim of trafficking, not an international terrorist

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/01/case-bringing-shamima-begum-back-now-irrefutable/ (£££)

    That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 768
    Bloke from Conservative Home (Henry ) on R4 Today - says ballots opened as they are received . Is that true?
  • The case for bringing Shamima Begum back is now irrefutable
    The so-called Isis bride is a child victim of trafficking, not an international terrorist

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/01/case-bringing-shamima-begum-back-now-irrefutable/ (£££)

    That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.

    He’s not neutral though? He’s long been an advocate for her return… it surprises me that it’s only a decade after the events and after all other avenues have been tried that these new “facts” have been unearthed

    Why would the Canadians do this? Why would they benefit?

  • The case for bringing Shamima Begum back is now irrefutable
    The so-called Isis bride is a child victim of trafficking, not an international terrorist

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/01/case-bringing-shamima-begum-back-now-irrefutable/ (£££)

    That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.

    He’s not neutral though? He’s long been an advocate for her return… it surprises me that it’s only a decade after the events and after all other avenues have been tried that these new “facts” have been unearthed

    Why would the Canadians do this? Why would they benefit?

    Why would the Canadians want to infiltrate ISIS? Surely that is obvious.

    From there, it is likely that Toronto Bond smuggled Shemima and her pals into Syria wearing his undercover ISIS hat rather than his Canadian spy hat. So from that point of view, Canada had no interest in trafficking terrorists; it was just the price to be paid for infiltration.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The 'grooming' line is interesting. In Rotherham and elsewhere, the groomers were unknown and coercive, preying upon those who could not possibly know how evil they were (and were ignored if they went to police).

    When Begum travelled a thousand miles to join ISIS it had been in the news for years for crucifying children, industrial scale rape, and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis. You don't get to join the Nazis in 1946 and claim you didn't know they were bad.
  • Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792

    Ben Wallace: Submarines rather than ships could be the Royal Navy's future
    Defence Secretary has asked naval chiefs to assess the 'balance' between surface and submarine fleets as he launches a major review

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/02/ben-wallace-submarines-rather-ships-could-royal-navys-future/ (£££)

    I'm not sure how Baldy Ben is getting to 27 "major surface combatants". The RN is down to 17 escorts (from the 19 described in the 2010 SDSR as the bare minimum) since the tories scrapped Monmouth and Montrose.

    More submarines are pure fantasy at this point unless we revive a non-nuclear option. Something like the German/Italian 212 would make a lot of sense as a low(er) cost way to grow the fleet.
  • The case for bringing Shamima Begum back is now irrefutable
    The so-called Isis bride is a child victim of trafficking, not an international terrorist

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/01/case-bringing-shamima-begum-back-now-irrefutable/ (£££)

    That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.

    He’s not neutral though? He’s long been an advocate for her return… it surprises me that it’s only a decade after the events and after all other avenues have been tried that these new “facts” have been unearthed

    Why would the Canadians do this? Why would they benefit?

    Why would the Canadians want to infiltrate ISIS? Surely that is obvious.

    From there, it is likely that Toronto Bond smuggled Shemima and her pals into Syria wearing his undercover ISIS hat rather than his Canadian spy hat. So from that point of view, Canada had no interest in trafficking terrorists; it was just the price to be paid for infiltration.
    Lots of supposition

    She was a naive idiot who thought she would do something exciting. She made the wrong choice but wanted a do over.

    Actions have consequences

  • eekeek Posts: 22,078

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The 'grooming' line is interesting. In Rotherham and elsewhere, the groomers were unknown and coercive, preying upon those who could not possibly know how evil they were (and were ignored if they went to police).

    When Begum travelled a thousand miles to join ISIS it had been in the news for years for crucifying children, industrial scale rape, and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis. You don't get to join the Nazis in 1946 and claim you didn't know they were bad.

    We need to be careful not to play the part of the Rotherham police in saying these girls acted rationally and voluntarily, that they were not groomed.
  • The case for bringing Shamima Begum back is now irrefutable
    The so-called Isis bride is a child victim of trafficking, not an international terrorist

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/09/01/case-bringing-shamima-begum-back-now-irrefutable/ (£££)

    That is a comment piece by Andrew Mitchell, MP, reflecting a growing line of thought. A headache for the new Home Secretary.

    He’s not neutral though? He’s long been an advocate for her return… it surprises me that it’s only a decade after the events and after all other avenues have been tried that these new “facts” have been unearthed

    Why would the Canadians do this? Why would they benefit?

    Why would the Canadians want to infiltrate ISIS? Surely that is obvious.

    From there, it is likely that Toronto Bond smuggled Shemima and her pals into Syria wearing his undercover ISIS hat rather than his Canadian spy hat. So from that point of view, Canada had no interest in trafficking terrorists; it was just the price to be paid for infiltration.
    Lots of supposition

    She was a naive idiot who thought she would do something exciting. She made the wrong choice but wanted a do over.

    Actions have consequences

    We seem to have moved from Canadian spies to Shemima Begum. Yes, she probably was naive; she may well have been groomed; and now we can add she might have been smuggled in by a Western intelligence agency. Quite what she herself thought was going on is another matter.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Good morning, everyone.

    The 'grooming' line is interesting. In Rotherham and elsewhere, the groomers were unknown and coercive, preying upon those who could not possibly know how evil they were (and were ignored if they went to police).

    When Begum travelled a thousand miles to join ISIS it had been in the news for years for crucifying children, industrial scale rape, and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis. You don't get to join the Nazis in 1946 and claim you didn't know they were bad.

    We need to be careful not to play the part of the Rotherham police in saying these girls acted rationally and voluntarily, that they were not groomed.
    Just drone them all. Job done

  • Good morning, everyone.

    The 'grooming' line is interesting. In Rotherham and elsewhere, the groomers were unknown and coercive, preying upon those who could not possibly know how evil they were (and were ignored if they went to police).

    When Begum travelled a thousand miles to join ISIS it had been in the news for years for crucifying children, industrial scale rape, and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis. You don't get to join the Nazis in 1946 and claim you didn't know they were bad.

    We need to be careful not to play the part of the Rotherham police in saying these girls acted rationally and voluntarily, that they were not groomed.
    The police had another card up their sleeve, the girls were under 16, the men could have been prosecuted anyway
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Ben Wallace: Submarines rather than ships could be the Royal Navy's future
    Defence Secretary has asked naval chiefs to assess the 'balance' between surface and submarine fleets as he launches a major review

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/02/ben-wallace-submarines-rather-ships-could-royal-navys-future/ (£££)

    I'm not sure how Baldy Ben is getting to 27 "major surface combatants". The RN is down to 17 escorts (from the 19 described in the 2010 SDSR as the bare minimum) since the tories scrapped Monmouth and Montrose.

    More submarines are pure fantasy at this point unless we revive a non-nuclear option. Something like the German/Italian 212 would make a lot of sense as a low(er) cost way to grow the fleet.
    It depends also on what these submarines are intended for. Long deployments pointing nuclear missiles in the general direction of Saint Isaac's Cathedral probably does need nuclear power; short-range deployments protecting undersea infrastructure or supporting surface vessels could easily be diesel-fuelled.

    Only a cynic would suggest that submarines tomorrow will be promised to offset surface cuts today.
  • Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?
  • Good morning, everyone.

    The 'grooming' line is interesting. In Rotherham and elsewhere, the groomers were unknown and coercive, preying upon those who could not possibly know how evil they were (and were ignored if they went to police).

    When Begum travelled a thousand miles to join ISIS it had been in the news for years for crucifying children, industrial scale rape, and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis. You don't get to join the Nazis in 1946 and claim you didn't know they were bad.

    We need to be careful not to play the part of the Rotherham police in saying these girls acted rationally and voluntarily, that they were not groomed.
    The police had another card up their sleeve, the girls were under 16, the men could have been prosecuted anyway
    That is true. Shemima Begum was also under 16.
  • True this.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

  • Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Another reason to suspect grooming, perhaps? God's work has been a powerful recruiting sergeant down the ages, and probably with no involvement in actual fighting.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    EPG said:

    Are they telling the truth, though?

    No. No-one wants honesty from politicians.
    They want politicians to 'tell it like it is' with telling it like it is equating to pandering to each individual voter's views.

    They don't want honesty from politicians when its inconvenient for the individual voter.
    And yet I wonder if that is true

    Churchill famously offered "blood, sweat and tears" and everyone loved him, and he won the war

    Hitler infamously said you can promise the people nothing but pain and anguish (or something like that) and they will follow you anywhere. They WANT the honesty and the sense of camaraderie from shared suffering

    Liz Truss could usefully make a Churchillian speech when she gains power, to this effect.

    "Times are hard. We must hang together, or hang apart. Winter is going to be TOUGH, I cannot lie"

    Level with the voters. She will gain respect, and she might gain voters
    LOL

    Meanwhile back in the real world...
    Well, I think the Tories are headed for defeat, as things stand. 90% chance

    So she needs to change the game. This could do it. And it is also the right thing to do, even if they lose in 2024

    I genuinely believe people want the pols to level with them. Not knowing is the worst. It's like avoiding the dentist for years until things get so bad you believe you have jaw cancer. In the event when you finally go, the dentist says: you will lose three teeth, we can crown two more, it's not great, it will be painful. but this is where we are, no you haven't got cancer

    It's an enormous relief to know the truth, rather than rely on your lurid fantasies mixed, poorly, with total denial
    "We are competing in a world economy against peoples who are as intelligent and educated as us but who are willing to work harder, under fewer restrictions and for less pay.

    For a generation this country has lived beyond its means and has flogged off our assets to foreign ownership so that we can have more foreign holidays and imported consumer tat than what we could pay for from the wealth we have actually created.

    We have become more unequal as a country and have neglected vital infrastructure whilst wallowing in ever increasing amounts of self pity and self entitlement.

    To get out of this mess will be painful - it will require harder work and lower living standards than we have become used to.

    It will also require taxation of the wealth locked up in property - this does not just mean taxing the rich but taxation of the homes every one of us lives in."


    Do you think people really want to hear that ?
    They probably don't. But they might respond surprisingly well. Borisovian boosterism has had its day, for now

    C'mon Liz, give us our "blood, sweat and tears"
    The advantage of an honest, if dismal, account of the state of the country is that you can make the case for the pain and sacrifice leading to a better future. That fits with the essential underlying Christian ethos of the country, of redemption being the reward for suffering. It makes present suffering easier to bear.

    If you're in pain and suffering but you're told the country is doing great, then that's only going to make you pissed off at not getting your share of the fun.

    The problem for the Tories is that they've been in charge for the last dozen years. If they level with the public and admit the situation of the country has deteriorated over that period then the public might want someone else to try and fix it.
    One thing to be in a redemption type situation but quite another to be trapped in a sado-masochist dungeon when you are not expecting or wanting it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 28,836
    edited September 2022

    eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
    To be still more accurate, SNP as well, too, not that they got any thanks either. (Presumably the two Green Parties, Scottish Socialists, PC etc but not sure about NI.)

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-labours-downfall-began-iraq-war-1501824 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2665027.stm
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316

    Boris Johnson partygate legal advice 'absolutely devastating' for inquiry's legitimacy
    Findings will undermine investigation into whether Prime Minister misled House of Commons, source says

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/09/01/boris-johnson-partygate-legal-advice-absolutely-devastating/ (£££)

    Bad luck Liz, Boris might be sticking around.

    Though the legal advice from Lord Pannick QC was commissioned by the Number 10 unit within the Cabinet Office which might be distancing itself from the report, which also raises the question of parliamentary sovereignty. Popcorn time.

    Like everything else to do with Boris, it's unadulterated bollocks.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgePeretzQC/status/1565585493265469440
    In any event, as @RhonddaBryant
    points out in @BBCr4today, the contempt is either knowingly misleading or inadvertently misleading and then failing to correct when the error is realised. Both are unacceptable and toxic to ministers’ accountability to Parliament.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054
    Pretty scary footage of the attack on the Argentinian vice-president.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Nigelb said:

    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086

    The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird


    “I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/01/donald-trump-pardons-january-6-us-capitol-attack
  • Leon said:

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

    There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
  • Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Since you made the Nazi comparison, HMG made strenuous efforts to prosecute Brits post 1945 who had willingly joined a murderous cause of the utmost evil, with some pretty dubious justification in the case of William Joyce. What do you think has changed since then that justifies our current HMG washing their hands of Begum?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054

    eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
    Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.

    The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    Leon said:

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

    There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
    It is genuinely shameful that we spend so much time and energy angsting about this dreadful woman. She chose her life, again, when she made that interview when she was 21

    Let her rot in the desert. There are 67 million Brits more deserving of our sympathy
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,448
    eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    Also the LOTO was Michael "Are you thinking what I'm thinking" Howard.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086

    The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird

    “I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/01/donald-trump-pardons-january-6-us-capitol-attack
    The difference is that Biden seems to be turning into a pretty good president.
    Your assessment of his mental capacity notwithstanding.

  • TazTaz Posts: 6,594
    Leon said:

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

    I doubt this ‘revelation’ changes much, even if it is true and it seems to be accepted as true by Begums supporters in the media.

    She was unrepentant as you say and her comments about the Manchester Arena bombing were appalling and made well after IS had fallen.

    She seems to have a well funded and slick PR campaign advocating for her. She doesn’t deserve it. I would let her be subject to the justice of the domain she committed her offences in.

    As Nick Palmer, iirc, said. There are far more deserving cases of our help.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,879
    edited September 2022
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
    Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.

    The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
    In that case why haven’t the Tory party and various Tory hued governments repudiated the Iraq war? As far as I can see it’s only randoms on the internet that push the big lie stuff, mainly cos they feel a bit sick that they were so comprehensively suckered by Blair especially when the lentil munchers and the ghastly Nats were not.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 11,576
    edited September 2022
    See Bristol Zoo is closing.

    https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-62753770

    Oddly the BBC story doesn’t mention the best thing about Bristol Zoo - the urban legend about the car park attendant…

    https://bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/there-truth-behind-urban-myth-4941098
  • Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    20 Rishi Sunak 5%
    Betfair next prime minister
    1.05 Liz Truss 95%
    19.5 Rishi Sunak 5%

    Next Conservative leader
    1.04 Liz Truss 96%
    21 Rishi Sunak 5%
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    One of the Begum interviews from 3 years ago

    https://youtu.be/TGAxm6KJTWE

    We should not spend a minute more on her. She’s absolute evil
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 19,093
    ...
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

    There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
    It is genuinely shameful that we spend so much time and energy angsting about this dreadful woman. She chose her life, again, when she made that interview when she was 21

    Let her rot in the desert. There are 67 million Brits more deserving of our sympathy
    Your protestations over Shamima Begum remind me of Piers Morgan's attacks on Meghan Markle. Are you pissed Shamima didn't invite you to her wedding?
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,448
    dixiedean said:

    Why does "a capable leader" score only 54%?
    Do 46% want an incapable one?
    And the danger for Truss is the second one "understands the problems facing Britain" Haven't seen evidence of that as of yet.

    Not ticking the box "Capable leader is important" does not mean "an incapable leader is important", but that it is not important whether the PM is a strong leader or not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086

    The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird

    “I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/01/donald-trump-pardons-january-6-us-capitol-attack
    The difference is that Biden seems to be turning into a pretty good president.
    Your assessment of his mental capacity notwithstanding.

    This Biden speech feels like a mistake. But then all of American politics feels like a mistake, at the moment

    The civil war inches closer

  • LeonLeon Posts: 30,637

    ...

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Mr. JohnL, yet ISIS was in the news continuously, often as the headline, for barbaric atrocities. This is not an irrelevant point. It beggars belief that those who travelled thousands of miles to join a genocidal cult of master faith religious zealots that had dominated the news could not be aware of what it stood for.

    Pretending that was not the case and those who travelled were just 'misguided' disregards that they willingly went to join a murderous cause of the utmost evil, and one which was widely known about and reported upon.

    Would a man be getting this sympathy?

    Indeed

    Moreover, Begum was unrepentant about ISIS a full SIX YEARS after she joined, in that famous TV interview in her tent. She just regretted the fact ISIS did not win

    She was not 15 then. She was 21

    This is like a Nazi being interviewed in Argentina in 1947, saying “Auschwitz was great, shame they closed it”. It was only when she realised this was catastrophic PR that she changed her tune

    It beggars belief we waste this time on a piece of human trash. Let the Syrians execute her

    There is certainly a line of argument that even if Shemima (and her mates) were groomed and trafficked at 15, they really ought to have figured out something was wrong six years later.
    It is genuinely shameful that we spend so much time and energy angsting about this dreadful woman. She chose her life, again, when she made that interview when she was 21

    Let her rot in the desert. There are 67 million Brits more deserving of our sympathy
    Your protestations over Shamima Begum remind me of Piers Morgan's attacks on Meghan Markle. Are you pissed Shamima didn't invite you to her wedding?
    I have a good friend that knows her. Met her in Syria. Says she’s quite hot and “you would”

    Lol. I don’t care. Drone
  • Taz said:
    Interesting. I'd written Labour off in the Midlands - maybe that was premature. Obviously only a tiny sample, but still surprising to me.
  • Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    They did. Remember that the choices of government were (a) Labour who screwed up the intel on Iraq, or (b) the Tories who not only backed his government on Iraq, but after finding out said they would have backed the war anyway.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,792
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086

    The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird


    “I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/01/donald-trump-pardons-january-6-us-capitol-attack
    Definitely running again. He knows the two issues that hurt with his base are lack of support for the J6 Patriots and lack of vaccine skepticism.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 37,054

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
    Yeah this old one. If the government (which has access to more intelligence than the opposition) says that there is a real and credible threat to the nation the Opposition has no option but to go along with it.

    The problem in that case was that the Opposition support was based upon a lie, a government lie.
    In that case why haven’t the Tory party and various Tory hued governments repudiated the Iraq war? As far as I can see it’s only randoms on the internet that push the big lie stuff, mainly cos they feel a bit sick that they were so comprehensively suckered by Blair especially when the lentil munchers and the ghastly Nats were not.
    Chip paper and yes indeed they did support it so no productive avenue there.
  • eek said:

    Voters elected Tony Blair after he lied through his teeth to get Britain into a war which saw 175vfamillies lose a loved one and hundreds of others have loved ones return physically or mentally maimed.

    At the time of the 2005 election most people still regarded the 2003 invasion as valid. You have made the mistake of looking at things from a 2022 viewpoint rather than the viewpoints of 2005.
    if i remember rightly the bulk of the tories were in favour of this. it was only Kennedy against, and him and the libdems were pilloried for it.
    Is Malcolm Dunn massively anti-Blair from the left or from the right? I can't tell.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 47,316
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Biden saying that the heckler is “entitled to be outrageous” is the difference, right there between Biden and Trump. Or liberals and MAGA.
    Trump and MAGA would call for that heckler to be beaten.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1565496846470062086

    The difference is that both of these old men are demented fools, but Trump’s use of the English language is the more interestingly weird

    “I am financially supporting people that are incredible and they were in my office actually two days ago, so they’re very much in my mind,”

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/01/donald-trump-pardons-january-6-us-capitol-attack
    The difference is that Biden seems to be turning into a pretty good president.
    Your assessment of his mental capacity notwithstanding.

    This Biden speech feels like a mistake. But then all of American politics feels like a mistake, at the moment

    The civil war inches closer

    You think politely pretending the current Trump dominated GOP is politics as usual would be more sensible ?

    I'm unconvinced.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 29,308
    Morning all! Bright and sunny here.
    Son has just texted to say that he is in a horrendous queue at passport control at, I think, Terminal Two, Heathrow
This discussion has been closed.