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An early by-election in Nadine’s seat? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,847

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    No Tory poll leads for EIGHT MONTHS and TWO DAYS!!
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,530

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    Clarke’s position was that the UK should leave with a deal . He was against no deal which any sane person would agree with.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    Also makes you wonder what the department of Brexit opportunities has been doing with its time.

    But, to take a couple of examples, zero rating gas as Truss is proposing and (with appropriate safeguards) removing restrictions on the driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 tonnes are a couple of good examples where we can change laws that are no longer helpful but we were otherwise stuck with. Focus on the bloody practical and stop this gesture crap. We had enough of that from Boris for a life time.
  • TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting if true.

    https://twitter.com/stoa1984/status/1556558847363502081
    Taiwan MoD stated that PLA aircraft and vessels have never entered territorial waters and airspace of the main island during the exercise. Makes sense. Full press conference available at: https://facebook.com/MilitarySpokesman/videos/342925874585794

    Good news if true.

    Xi is a monstrous authoritarian, but he doesn't [yet] seem to be totally batshit crazy and delusional unlike Putin.

    Worried about the yet though. A decade ago Putin didn't seem completely batshit crazy and delusional either.

    Leaders remaining in power too long is never healthy, and there doesn't seem to be any exit ramp for Xi.
    He doesn't want an exit ramp. To understand modern China you need to understand that almost above all concerns is its perceived territorial integrity. This included HK and continues to include the Spratlys and "Taiwan Province".

    No Chinese premier ever lost popularity by waving the "reunification" flag.

    It was put to me at the time of the HK Joint Declaration that China would take over 400-odd square miles of rubble if that is how the negotiations went.
    Cf Ukraine. Putin is prepared to destroy Ukraine in order to seize it. Same mindset, same principles
    I weep when I see what Xi has done to China after the Deng reforms but it is vital to understand what motivates him and in this instance he has inherited and is championing a prominent and popular strand of Chinese thinking.
    You can wave the "reunification" flag without actually doing anything about it for centuries. That's what Spain has done with regards to Gibraltar and plenty of others.

    Have a convenient flag to wave, but don't actually do much about it. That Xi has been a draconian authoritarian who has seized power to himself and ended the organised system of effective term limits and transfers of power to others has nothing to do with the flag which is just an excuse.
    I for one would be delighted to see a "reunified" China - but it would have to be free and democratic!
  • TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    It's because everyone has forgotten that he is the leaver. He is reminding them.

    Reminds me, meanwhile, of this:

    https://www.theonion.com/n-korea-wondering-what-it-has-to-do-to-attract-u-s-mi-1819566737
    He was the leaver, we've left, so leaver or remainer doesn't exist anymore.

    The reason so many former leavers now back Truss over Sunak is not because she's making mealy-mouthed gestures about "reviewing all laws" which is clearly nonsense, but because she's picked a clear and specific law that is considered to be harmful [the NI Protocol] and has come up with a thought-through solution as to how to address it.

    Whether you like her proposed change or not, concrete proposals to change a law is much more meaningful than vapid claims about reviewing all laws.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,152

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    No Tory poll leads for EIGHT MONTHS and TWO DAYS!!
    Could be no CON lead for 8 years and two months at this rate. The only proviso to this is er ... Starmer isn't very good!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    Hey old chap.

    Who should take over and why would they do better? With polling evidence please.
    He would like Putin's number 1 apologist back, so that rather than focussing on the cost of living crisis, we can be having debates on Palestine and why we should be rolling over and allowing Putin to grab any territory he wants.
    JC consistently critical of Putin

    Only Mr Thicky would think otherwise
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs
    That is so so weak. He disapproved of oligarchs so he is not a Putin apologist? Pathetic. The man was complaining about the West arming Ukraine in it's hour of need and saying it would prolong the conflict. Even 2Es Corbyn is not so stupid that he doesn't know what he is saying. If the West stops arming Ukraine, Putin will prevail. It is even more pathetic that he claims "he called for Russian troops to withdraw". Is he so stupid that he thinks they will because he says so? No this is a very vain attempt to provide cover for his pro-Putin position.

    He is at the very least a Putin apologist. Anyone that supports him is a Putin apologist by proxy and have the contempt of most decent thinking people. Corbyn is scum.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    Also makes you wonder what the department of Brexit opportunities has been doing with its time.

    But, to take a couple of examples, zero rating gas as Truss is proposing and (with appropriate safeguards) removing restrictions on the driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 tonnes are a couple of good examples where we can change laws that are no longer helpful but we were otherwise stuck with. Focus on the bloody practical and stop this gesture crap. We had enough of that from Boris for a life time.
    Dunno about lorries. I drive one on a car licence, or rather I don't at the moment after selling the last one 2 years ago, and I'm not over the moon about there being other people like me on the roads.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    God help us all.
    A sadistic post indeed from H there. But beautifully constructed.

    Starts with a vicious slap, "Braverman", allows some respite with a few names of just medium horror, then amps up the pain again with "Coffey" and "Baker", before inflicting the almost unbearable "Redwood" and that terrible "etc".

    Then, just as the screams are subsiding, the final moment of pure gratuitous cruelty -

    "Maybe even Francois"
    Bill Cash as Attorney General as icing on the cake? Last time he was a Tory frontbencher was under IDS and he has backed Truss for leader.

    Indeed IDS may get a job too
    AIUI Bill Cash would not be eligible as he's a solicitor not a member of the bar.
    The idea that you should be skilled in the laws to be AG surely crumbled into dust with the current incumbent, if not before. And Bill Cash was always a barrack room lawyer of the very worst sort.
  • nico679 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    Clarke’s position was that the UK should leave with a deal . He was against no deal which any sane person would agree with.

    That's ridiculous nonsense, simply saying "any sane person would ..." doesn't make it so.

    I'm sane and I 100% believe its better to be prepared to walk away without a deal than to sign a blank cheque to agreeing to a deal under all circumstances. The only way to get a good deal is to be prepared to have no deal, which is why Boris who was prepared to walk away got a far superior deal to May who was not.

    Clarke et all who voted against on a Confidence motion fully deserved to be expelled from the party, just as Clarke when in Cabinet compelled "the bastards" to vote in 1993 to endorse Maastricht against their will, and just as Clarke et al saw it fit to expel Rupert Allason from the party for refusing to vote with the whip.

    When push came to shove, Clarke was less willing to be "moderate" and follow the whip than Major's "bastards" other than Allason.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760
    edited August 2022
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    Also makes you wonder what the department of Brexit opportunities has been doing with its time.

    But, to take a couple of examples, zero rating gas as Truss is proposing and (with appropriate safeguards) removing restrictions on the driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 tonnes are a couple of good examples where we can change laws that are no longer helpful but we were otherwise stuck with. Focus on the bloody practical and stop this gesture crap. We had enough of that from Boris for a life time.
    Dunno about lorries. I drive one on a car licence, or rather I don't at the moment after selling the last one 2 years ago, and I'm not over the moon about there being other people like me on the roads.
    But there are, they are just getting increasingly doddery to boot having had their licence since before 1997. I would be looking for a clean driving licences for at least 5 years and, possibly, some sort of parking test.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,717
    edited August 2022

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    Hey old chap.

    Who should take over and why would they do better? With polling evidence please.
    He would like Putin's number 1 apologist back, so that rather than focussing on the cost of living crisis, we can be having debates on Palestine and why we should be rolling over and allowing Putin to grab any territory he wants.
    JC consistently critical of Putin

    Only Mr Thicky would think otherwise
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs
    Corbyn is scum.
    And living rent free in your head.12.9m people voted for him in 2017 so are apparently Putin apologists is a Mr Thicky argument

  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,911
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    Also makes you wonder what the department of Brexit opportunities has been doing with its time.

    But, to take a couple of examples, zero rating gas as Truss is proposing and (with appropriate safeguards) removing restrictions on the driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 tonnes are a couple of good examples where we can change laws that are no longer helpful but we were otherwise stuck with. Focus on the bloody practical and stop this gesture crap. We had enough of that from Boris for a life time.
    Dunno about lorries. I drive one on a car licence, or rather I don't at the moment after selling the last one 2 years ago, and I'm not over the moon about there being other people like me on the roads.
    But there are, they are just getting increasingly doddery to boot having had their licence since before 1997. I would be looking for a clean driving licences for at least 5 years and, possibly, some sort of parking test.
    It's my own dodderiness which concerns me. I passed a test in 1980.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    More Hosepipe bans later this week

    Not one reservoir has been built since water privatisation in 1989

    Wastage of water from leaks has tripled since 1989

    SKS fans please explain!
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    Hey old chap.

    Who should take over and why would they do better? With polling evidence please.
    He would like Putin's number 1 apologist back, so that rather than focussing on the cost of living crisis, we can be having debates on Palestine and why we should be rolling over and allowing Putin to grab any territory he wants.
    JC consistently critical of Putin

    Only Mr Thicky would think otherwise
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs
    That is so so weak. He disapproved of oligarchs so he is not a Putin apologist? Pathetic. The man was complaining about the West arming Ukraine in it's hour of need and saying it would prolong the conflict. Even 2Es Corbyn is not so stupid that he doesn't know what he is saying. If the West stops arming Ukraine, Putin will prevail. It is even more pathetic that he claims "he called for Russian troops to withdraw". Is he so stupid that he thinks they will because he says so? No this is a very vain attempt to provide cover for his pro-Putin position.

    He is at the very least a Putin apologist. Anyone that supports him is a Putin apologist by proxy and have the contempt of most decent thinking people. Corbyn is scum.
    Let's face it, the only criteria that Corbyn ever applied was, are these people hostile to the west in general and the UK in particular? It immediately gave him something in common with them. Scum is too kind.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    edited August 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2022

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    Yes but his opponent will likely be IDS in a skirt not Cameron or Boris either. Starmer v Truss will be the least charismatic 2 main party leaders in decades
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,847

    nico679 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    Clarke’s position was that the UK should leave with a deal . He was against no deal which any sane person would agree with.

    That's ridiculous nonsense, simply saying "any sane person would ..." doesn't make it so.

    I'm sane and I 100% believe its better to be prepared to walk away without a deal than to sign a blank cheque to agreeing to a deal under all circumstances. The only way to get a good deal is to be prepared to have no deal, which is why Boris who was prepared to walk away got a far superior deal to May who was not.

    Clarke et all who voted against on a Confidence motion fully deserved to be expelled from the party, just as Clarke when in Cabinet compelled "the bastards" to vote in 1993 to endorse Maastricht against their will, and just as Clarke et al saw it fit to expel Rupert Allason from the party for refusing to vote with the whip.

    When push came to shove, Clarke was less willing to be "moderate" and follow the whip than Major's "bastards" other than Allason.
    He got his deal by accepting "what no UK PM could ever accept" - a border in the Irish Sea.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,606
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    Hey old chap.

    Who should take over and why would they do better? With polling evidence please.
    He would like Putin's number 1 apologist back, so that rather than focussing on the cost of living crisis, we can be having debates on Palestine and why we should be rolling over and allowing Putin to grab any territory he wants.
    JC consistently critical of Putin

    Only Mr Thicky would think otherwise
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs
    That is so so weak. He disapproved of oligarchs so he is not a Putin apologist? Pathetic. The man was complaining about the West arming Ukraine in it's hour of need and saying it would prolong the conflict. Even 2Es Corbyn is not so stupid that he doesn't know what he is saying. If the West stops arming Ukraine, Putin will prevail. It is even more pathetic that he claims "he called for Russian troops to withdraw". Is he so stupid that he thinks they will because he says so? No this is a very vain attempt to provide cover for his pro-Putin position.

    He is at the very least a Putin apologist. Anyone that supports him is a Putin apologist by proxy and have the contempt of most decent thinking people. Corbyn is scum.
    Let's face it, the only criteria that Corbyn ever applied was, are these people hostile to the west in general and the UK in particular? It immediately gave him something in common with them. Scum is too kind.
    Corbyn is a classic negative nationalist.

    “Never, under any circumstances, my country, right or wrong” is just as moronic as “Always my country, right or wrong”.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,717

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Foremain, I think the EU makes sense if you want to integrate ever more towards a USE. Otherwise, I would've preferred a looser association.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    This is a promising sign (though some of the details of the way it is reported are misleading). We really need to press ahead with wind as fast as possible to provide the renewable energy for this sort of thing, as well as replace gas and power electric cars.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/08/scottishpower-build-150m-green-hydrogen-plant-port-felixstowe
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    Hey old chap.

    Who should take over and why would they do better? With polling evidence please.
    He would like Putin's number 1 apologist back, so that rather than focussing on the cost of living crisis, we can be having debates on Palestine and why we should be rolling over and allowing Putin to grab any territory he wants.
    JC consistently critical of Putin

    Only Mr Thicky would think otherwise
    https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs
    Corbyn is scum.
    And living rent free in your head.12.9m people voted for him in 2017 so are apparently Putin apologists is a Mr Thicky argument

    They would be Putin apologists if they still apologised for Corbyn. As you clearly do. As @DavidL said, scum is too nice a word for him.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    What? I've made this argument from the day of the Brexit vote, and indeed made it for many years before

    Brexit only arrived because we were not allowed an EU vote beforehand for decades, so the seething resentment built and built, until we got the ultimate, tragic rupture

    Very silly by europhiles. But tis done now

    I get the feeling that in a year or two the polls will start tipping back to Less Regret about Brexit. The last poll, in fact, showed perhaps the first signs of this possible shift. I also note that in a recent poll on the salience of issues just 2% of people put "Brexit" in the front rank of problems facing Britain

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    He’s not reviewing all EU law within 100 days, he’s ‘setting up the unit that will review EU law’, within 100 days.

    Truss should say she’ll be setting up the unit on Day 1, and has someone lined up to lead it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,729
    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Mr. Foremain, I think the EU makes sense if you want to integrate ever more towards a USE. Otherwise, I would've preferred a looser association.

    I wouldn't disagree with you, but as I have said on here before, the "ever closer union" argument is only something believed in by a minority of EU bureaucrats and British EU-phobes. The 27 are never going to become the USE. It is not going to happen except in the very small brains of Daily Express readers
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
    The argument for rejoin is still stuck in a negative we can't possibly cope on our own mindset. That's not a winning message.

    The prospects for rejoin look ever weaker to me, because no-one is advocating for it in a positive optimistic way.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited August 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    No more football results at 5 pm on the BBC. They really have taken leave of their senses. They certainly know how to alienate their audience . Time for the Telly tax to go.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Starlink is rubbish. FTTP will be with you soon

    Starlink’s rubbish if you live in the city. If you live in the sticks, however, it’s way better than anything else currently available.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
    The argument for rejoin is still stuck in a negative we can't possibly cope on our own mindset. That's not a winning message.

    The prospects for rejoin look ever weaker to me, because no-one is advocating for it in a positive optimistic way.
    Rejoining could very well be the 21st Century answer to the Restoration of 1660.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,847
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    Well he's always been opposed to binary Referendums on complex issues because iho what happens then is they get simplified to the point of absurdity and distorted by extraneous matters, leading to a poor quality of debate and poor outcomes.

    It's possible that the events of 2016 caused him to revisit this view but I rather doubt it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    He’s not reviewing all EU law within 100 days, he’s ‘setting up the unit that will review EU law’, within 100 days.

    Truss should say she’ll be setting up the unit on Day 1, and has someone lined up to lead it.
    We have had a department for Brexit Opportunities and Government efficiency for a year now with its own Minister of State and everything. I repeat, what have they been doing?
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited August 2022
    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    Clarke’s position was that the UK should leave with a deal . He was against no deal which any sane person would agree with.

    That's ridiculous nonsense, simply saying "any sane person would ..." doesn't make it so.

    I'm sane and I 100% believe its better to be prepared to walk away without a deal than to sign a blank cheque to agreeing to a deal under all circumstances. The only way to get a good deal is to be prepared to have no deal, which is why Boris who was prepared to walk away got a far superior deal to May who was not.

    Clarke et all who voted against on a Confidence motion fully deserved to be expelled from the party, just as Clarke when in Cabinet compelled "the bastards" to vote in 1993 to endorse Maastricht against their will, and just as Clarke et al saw it fit to expel Rupert Allason from the party for refusing to vote with the whip.

    When push came to shove, Clarke was less willing to be "moderate" and follow the whip than Major's "bastards" other than Allason.
    He got his deal by accepting "what no UK PM could ever accept" - a border in the Irish Sea.
    There is no border in the Irish Sea, if there was then Truss wouldn't be able to change the actions unilaterally via Parliament as she is proposing. The Protocol explicitly states that NI is de jure a part of the UK customs territory which is why Westminster Parliament has the jurisdiction to act on this, not the EU Parliament.

    There's special arrangements in a devolved nation, but that is nothing new and something all PMs have accepted since Blair introduced devolution in 1997. Actually special arrangements have existed in parts of the UK since 1707 if you want to look that far back.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,558
    edited August 2022
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting if true.

    https://twitter.com/stoa1984/status/1556558847363502081
    Taiwan MoD stated that PLA aircraft and vessels have never entered territorial waters and airspace of the main island during the exercise. Makes sense. Full press conference available at: https://facebook.com/MilitarySpokesman/videos/342925874585794

    Good news if true.

    Xi is a monstrous authoritarian, but he doesn't [yet] seem to be totally batshit crazy and delusional unlike Putin.

    Worried about the yet though. A decade ago Putin didn't seem completely batshit crazy and delusional either.

    Leaders remaining in power too long is never healthy, and there doesn't seem to be any exit ramp for Xi.
    He doesn't want an exit ramp. To understand modern China you need to understand that almost above all concerns is its perceived territorial integrity. This included HK and continues to include the Spratlys and "Taiwan Province".

    No Chinese premier ever lost popularity by waving the "reunification" flag.

    It was put to me at the time of the HK Joint Declaration that China would take over 400-odd square miles of rubble if that is how the negotiations went.
    Except that Taiwan, unlike Hong Kong, is not and historically was not part of Chinese territory.
    It's arguably more to do with the CCP wanting absolute victory in a civil war which was effectively over many decades back.

    Dynamo said:

    Opinium

    LAB 37
    CON 34

    Best PM Truss leads SKS

    I am at a loss can any SKS fans please explain

    Starmer is a complete dud. Appallingly poor.
    Ahh that would explain it.

    SKS fans do not concur (yet)
    Hey old chap, hope you are well.

    Who should replace KS and why would they be doing better? I would like polling evidence to support your conclusion
    We have to assume that BJO would like to see the return of that crowd pleaser and (non) winner of elections and Putin apologist extraordinaire, the man affectionately known to PBers as Magic Grandpa or Mr. Thicky.

    Corbyn thinks we shouldn't be arming the Ukrainians because it is prolonging the conflict. Which of course is probably true, because if we didn't Putin would have quickly won, which perhaps Jezza would be pleased about.

    Why is Corbyn a sympathiser for a militaristic imperialist and murderer, Vladimir Putin? Corbyn fan please explain?
    Corbyn has called for Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukraine, and also called for stronger sanctions after Crimea than the Tories imposed. He might be a useful idiot but is surely not a Russian partisan.
    He's absolutely a Russia partisan.

    He's "called for Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukraine" to save face while calling for the West to stop sending munitions to Ukraine.

    If those policies were followed then Russia would roll over anywhere it wanted to do so while Corbyn would stand there saying "peace, lets talk about peace".

    The only way to stop Russia is via force, and Corbyn is utterly opposed to that.
    What's the only way to stop the Azov Regiment?
    Isn't it strange how so many of those who come in with unorthodox views on the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine get so fascinated with a single regiment of maybe 2,000 personnel at its height.

    Certainly far fewer now after Mariupol.

    Versus, what - half a million to a million under arms across Ukraine?

    The thousands in the Wagner Group - how do we stop those?
    The hundreds of thousands of Russian thugs terrorising civilians in Ukraine - how do we stop those?

    Strange how they seem to get a pass, isn't it?

    There's one useful test for suspected Russian trolls: go on - condemn the illegal Russian war in Ukraine. Always a good place to start.
    Torture and execution of POWs appears to be commonplace in territory occupied by the Russian invaders.
    Reports of POW's heads displayed on spikes over the weekend.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    Yes but his opponent will likely be IDS in a skirt not Cameron or Boris either. Starmer v Truss will be the least charismatic 2 main party leaders in decades
    That almost sounds appealing, particularly if the definition of "charismatic" is Boris Johnson.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    The only people who think Boris is a nice guy are those who do not know him, and the only people here who think Brexit has any benefits are those who neither import nor export goods or services for a living
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    Safe from what? What the fuck is the thimble dicked mannequin going on about?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,251

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
    The argument for rejoin is still stuck in a negative we can't possibly cope on our own mindset. That's not a winning message.

    The prospects for rejoin look ever weaker to me, because no-one is advocating for it in a positive optimistic way.
    Yep. Really we should be debating when is the time to think about letting the EU rejoin the UK, re-enabling their access to our free trade area etc. :wink:

    (Joking, of course, but there is an element of it - unless we really end up up shit creek - needing to be seen as an agreement among equals that is in both sides interests. That does, however, seem unlikely)
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    On Father Christmas... Are all presents to your daughters from Father Christmas?

    I was in trouble one year because we identified presents from other family members as being from Aunt Elsie, Grandpa Freddy, etc, and gave Father Christmas the credit for our presents, so our daughter wondered why we hadn't given her any presents...
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,251
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    Safe from what? What the fuck is the thimble dicked mannequin going on about?
    Safely locked away in a cupboard out of the reach of the idiots we're told might be in a Truss cabinet? Not that Sunak is looking much better....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,717

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
    GE2024 - Disappointed of Wales or Mexico!!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    Your super-intelligence compared to mine really comes to the fore again on there "Barty" lol. It is not necessarily true that all people who voted leave were stupid and gullible, but all credit to you for coming on here and conforming to the stereotype.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,847

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
    I think he's heading for it, maybe even with a majority. Unfortunately I'm stuck with a betting position the other way - back from when I thought a Labour majority close to impossible - but I really have changed my mind now. If the Cons get a polling boost under Truss and the market moves accordingly I'll be seeking to use that to get out of my (now) unwanted position.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    The only people who think Boris is a nice guy are those who do not know him, and the only people here who think Brexit has any benefits are those who neither import nor export goods or services for a living
    Don't be silly, there are both benefits and cons as I said. Increased paperwork etc for imports and exports is a con, I acknowledge that without hesitation. That cons exist doesn't mean that pros don't exist too and balancing cons and pros is how politics operates.

    The overwhelming majority of the country don't export or import goods or services for a living, so we shouldn't set up our politics solely on that one issue.

    Those who choose to export or import from a foreign region need to comply with the regulations that apply in doing so. That is true whether we are talking about Europe, China, the USA or anywhere else.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,558
    Sandpit said:

    Starlink is rubbish. FTTP will be with you soon

    Starlink’s rubbish if you live in the city. If you live in the sticks, however, it’s way better than anything else currently available.
    Though as Ukraine has demonstrated, it's a pretty reliable backup in cities, too.
    Fairly niche, but if you need 100% 24/7/365 uninterrupted service, it's got some utility.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
    The argument for rejoin is still stuck in a negative we can't possibly cope on our own mindset. That's not a winning message.

    The prospects for rejoin look ever weaker to me, because no-one is advocating for it in a positive optimistic way.
    Rejoining could very well be the 21st Century answer to the Restoration of 1660.
    No, that is absurd. Cromwell failed to establish a political system that could survive his death. The UK has robust and long-established political institutions that can run the country indefinitely, so there's no power vacuum for EU membership to fill.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    No more football results at 5 pm on the BBC. They really have taken leave of their senses. They certainly know how to alienate their audience . Time for the Telly tax to go.

    No more...

    https://youtu.be/gv_idtcK1-E

    ... now that is the end of civilisation as we know it.

    I detest the BBC!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sunak would create a unit to review every EU law still on the statute book in his first 100 days

    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560?s=20&t=HMvPks_wwH1VJThxkIJN8w

    FFS, what on earth is the point? We can rightly focus on areas where laws are thought to be harmful but to review a law just because it originated in the EU? I thought he was presenting as the sane one in this contest?
    Its utterly meaningless gesture politics. You can't possibly have a sincere and meaningful review of all laws within 100 days, so it simply won't happen and will be a waste of time and money. You can barely properly review a solitary law in that time, let alone all laws.
    Also makes you wonder what the department of Brexit opportunities has been doing with its time.

    But, to take a couple of examples, zero rating gas as Truss is proposing and (with appropriate safeguards) removing restrictions on the driving of vehicles of up to 7.5 tonnes are a couple of good examples where we can change laws that are no longer helpful but we were otherwise stuck with. Focus on the bloody practical and stop this gesture crap. We had enough of that from Boris for a life time.
    Dunno about lorries. I drive one on a car licence, or rather I don't at the moment after selling the last one 2 years ago, and I'm not over the moon about there being other people like me on the roads.
    But there are, they are just getting increasingly doddery to boot having had their licence since before 1997. I would be looking for a clean driving licences for at least 5 years and, possibly, some sort of parking test.
    It's my own dodderiness which concerns me. I passed a test in 1980.
    I think I said yesterday that I felt the same and would no longer hire such vehicles although I did 30 odd years ago. These things are self regulating to a degree.
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 127
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    With respect - is it possible (just theoretically) that they might prefer other topics upon which you might agree?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,717
    PB is hilarious

    SKS fans (not you Pete) are ramping a 4% Lab lead like its a triumph CHB and Sunil are SKS Cultists

    Their man was 15% ahead less than a month ago yet now 4^ proves his electability
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Root, it's not my sport, but football is far and away the nation's favourite sport. Not broadcasting results, having done so previously, is just bloody stupid.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
    GE2024 - Disappointed of Wales or Mexico!!
    ...maybe not, maybe Sheffield?
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    What? I've made this argument from the day of the Brexit vote, and indeed made it for many years before

    Brexit only arrived because we were not allowed an EU vote beforehand for decades, so the seething resentment built and built, until we got the ultimate, tragic rupture

    Very silly by europhiles. But tis done now

    I get the feeling that in a year or two the polls will start tipping back to Less Regret about Brexit. The last poll, in fact, showed perhaps the first signs of this possible shift. I also note that in a recent poll on the salience of issues just 2% of people put "Brexit" in the front rank of problems facing Britain

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back
    Soz, Leon, there's been another poll since then. We're back to 52% wrong(+3), 36% right (-1).



    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/#

    The next stage in this story looks like being a mood of impotent regret, for fear of the Wrath of Farage.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    He speaks very highly of you too I am sure. Interesting list you put there, all political giants compared to the political pigmy people on your side of the debate: Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Francois, Dorries. Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last. If you and I are still tapping away on our keyboards I will be enjoying every minute of it. You will have converted to being a remainer and there will probably only one person on here who will still be saying if we wait another decade we might see those benefits of Brexit and still banging on about the vaccine program during the war, sorry pandemic.
    The argument for rejoin is still stuck in a negative we can't possibly cope on our own mindset. That's not a winning message.

    The prospects for rejoin look ever weaker to me, because no-one is advocating for it in a positive optimistic way.
    Yep. Really we should be debating when is the time to think about letting the EU rejoin the UK, re-enabling their access to our free trade area etc. :wink:

    (Joking, of course, but there is an element of it - unless we really end up up shit creek - needing to be seen as an agreement among equals that is in both sides interests. That does, however, seem unlikely)
    Exactly this. I want to see Britain take a positive optimistic decision to unite with the EU, not slink back humbled and cowed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    With respect - is it possible (just theoretically) that they might prefer other topics upon which you might agree?
    Maybe, lol

    But I sense a dying of the fire. The Remoaners were furiously angry for quite a while, then quietly seething, now they seem wistfully fine about it. If it is mentioned they tut and look a bit sad, but not for long

    No one has died. Britain is still here. There are more important things
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Starlink is rubbish. FTTP will be with you soon

    Starlink’s rubbish if you live in the city. If you live in the sticks, however, it’s way better than anything else currently available.
    Though as Ukraine has demonstrated, it's a pretty reliable backup in cities, too.
    Fairly niche, but if you need 100% 24/7/365 uninterrupted service, it's got some utility.
    Good point. Ukranians have been using it in areas where the enemy has disabled or hacked mobile service, including for military communications between friendly units on the battlefield. An invaluable resource in the conflict.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    PB is hilarious

    SKS fans (not you Pete) are ramping a 4% Lab lead like its a triumph CHB and Sunil are SKS Cultists

    Their man was 15% ahead less than a month ago yet now 4^ proves his electability

    But you are a little bit naughty BJO because you pick and choose, and mix and match your opinion polls.

    Even the most ardent Starmer supporters on here are accepting a Truss honeymoon. Their question (and mine) is for how long will that last?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,154
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    On Father Christmas... Are all presents to your daughters from Father Christmas?

    I was in trouble one year because we identified presents from other family members as being from Aunt Elsie, Grandpa Freddy, etc, and gave Father Christmas the credit for our presents, so our daughter wondered why we hadn't given her any presents...
    No. We do what both our parents did, the primary present that we've chosen [which wasn't on the list] comes from us, extra presents come from Father Christmas. They always write a letter to Father Christmas a few days before Christmas which we guide them towards putting on a couple of the things that Father Christmas has 'chosen' for them, minus a few surprises.

    EG last year my eldest was Harry Potter crazy and so her main present we got was a Lego Hogwarts Castle. She didn't know about it and we tried to ensure she never saw it, so it wasn't on her list to Father Christmas. That came from us, everything else came from Father Christmas. Thankfully their requests to Father Christmas are always quite moderate.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,667

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    But Mr Formain, if Father Christmas did not exist, how do I happen to find Christmas presents under the Christmas tree?

    And if Brexit were not a brilliant policy, how did it happen that millions of people voted Conservative in 2019, thus bringing Boris Johnson to the highest elected position in the land?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,717
    As a GND supporter I think Band Aid needs updating.

    https://twitter.com/charles_s64/status/1555971209921191936/photo/1
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    ClippP said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    But Mr Formain, if Father Christmas did not exist, how do I happen to find Christmas presents under the Christmas tree?

    And if Brexit were not a brilliant policy, how did it happen that millions of people voted Conservative in 2019, thus bringing Boris Johnson to the highest elected position in the land?
    I am not quite sure how to answer the first point, other than to say I have wondered quite often who eats the mince pie and drinks the whisky, but in serious answer to your second point, the answer is "Corbyn". Please see the numerous header posts by OGH demonstrating that in 2019 most people were voting to keep Corbyn out, not get Brexit done. The latter is a myth propagated by those who want to believe in the myth of Brexit, a little like a child that keeps telling his friends it must be true, because otherwise who eats the mince pie?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    What? I've made this argument from the day of the Brexit vote, and indeed made it for many years before

    Brexit only arrived because we were not allowed an EU vote beforehand for decades, so the seething resentment built and built, until we got the ultimate, tragic rupture

    Very silly by europhiles. But tis done now

    I get the feeling that in a year or two the polls will start tipping back to Less Regret about Brexit. The last poll, in fact, showed perhaps the first signs of this possible shift. I also note that in a recent poll on the salience of issues just 2% of people put "Brexit" in the front rank of problems facing Britain

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back
    Soz, Leon, there's been another poll since then. We're back to 52% wrong(+3), 36% right (-1).



    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/#

    The next stage in this story looks like being a mood of impotent regret, for fear of the Wrath of Farage.
    Fair enough, I did say "perhaps"

    Brexit is steadily falling down the list of important issues, that's for sure


    https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/#statisticContainer


    Look at that drop, in June 19 it was one of the most important issues for 67% of people, way out in front. It has slowly but steadily declined and is now at 22%. The economy, health, environment are all ahead

    I predict it will decline further. It is fading. The fires become embers. The smoke drifts, and the silent cannons are wheeled away

    In about a year or two that Wrong/Right poll will begin its inevitable longterm turn in the other direction. You heard it here first
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    Your super-intelligence compared to mine really comes to the fore again on there "Barty" lol. It is not necessarily true that all people who voted leave were stupid and gullible, but all credit to you for coming on here and conforming to the stereotype.
    I for one am willing to acknowledge cons to Brexit definitely exist, even if I voted for it. Politics is about balancing cons and pros though, not about one side being pure con or pure pro. If you wanted I could come up with a list of cons from Brexit as I'm open-minded, I simply think the cons are outweighed by the pros.

    Why are you so thick and gullible that you're incapable of coming up with even a single pro from Brexit?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
    I think he's heading for it, maybe even with a majority. Unfortunately I'm stuck with a betting position the other way - back from when I thought a Labour majority close to impossible - but I really have changed my mind now. If the Cons get a polling boost under Truss and the market moves accordingly I'll be seeking to use that to get out of my (now) unwanted position.
    Still can't see how Labour wins a majority. Will probably get most seats, by virtue of LDs taking southerly seats.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,558

    PB is hilarious

    SKS fans (not you Pete) are ramping a 4% Lab lead like its a triumph CHB and Sunil are SKS Cultists

    Their man was 15% ahead less than a month ago yet now 4^ proves his electability

    You hadn't noticed that 90% of UK politics coverage over the last few weeks has been about the Conservative leadership contest and its parade of promises ?

    The object of your disdain will be leader into the next election. We can judge his performance after that.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    On Father Christmas... Are all presents to your daughters from Father Christmas?

    I was in trouble one year because we identified presents from other family members as being from Aunt Elsie, Grandpa Freddy, etc, and gave Father Christmas the credit for our presents, so our daughter wondered why we hadn't given her any presents...
    No. We do what both our parents did, the primary present that we've chosen [which wasn't on the list] comes from us, extra presents come from Father Christmas. They always write a letter to Father Christmas a few days before Christmas which we guide them towards putting on a couple of the things that Father Christmas has 'chosen' for them, minus a few surprises.

    EG last year my eldest was Harry Potter crazy and so her main present we got was a Lego Hogwarts Castle. She didn't know about it and we tried to ensure she never saw it, so it wasn't on her list to Father Christmas. That came from us, everything else came from Father Christmas. Thankfully their requests to Father Christmas are always quite moderate.
    Giving big presents via Father Christmas is *strongly* deprecated by teachers of the Santa credulous age group because it makes children of poorer families, and presumably richer families who don't do this, feel discriminated against.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    kinabalu said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Latest Westminster voting intention (4-5 Aug)

    Con: 33% (-1 from 27-28 Jul)
    Lab: 37% (+2)
    Lib Dem: 11% (-2)
    Green: 8% (+1)
    Reform UK: 3% (=)
    SNP: 5% (=)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/08/08/voting-intention-con-33-lab-37-4-5-aug https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1556617250001588224/photo/1

    I AM SHOCKED THE LAST POLL WAS AN OUTLIER
    Hurrah a 4% lead!!

    FFS its shocking in the context of the worst COL crisis in yonks

    BTW where even is SKS when he gets back on the airwaves Tory lead nailed on!!
    In 1995, so about where we are relative to next GE, Blair had a 41 point LEAD. Against this lot that would be 51.

    SKS vote share less than TB lead.
    CHB and Sunil aint gonna believe it even after SKS defeat in GE2024

    SKS is no TB
    SKS is not a war criminal. Well that's a good thing surely?
    He would be given a chance but as he is never going to be PM he may not get called on as frequently
    I doubt he is war criminal material, Starmer is very dreary, of that there is little doubt.

    Truss is also very dreary. There is a f******' enormous economic catastrophe heading towards us at warp drive 9.99. The previous Prime Minister has destroyed his Party's credibility.

    Early days, but if the stars all align at the right time don't bet against SKSIPM.
    I think he's heading for it, maybe even with a majority. Unfortunately I'm stuck with a betting position the other way - back from when I thought a Labour majority close to impossible - but I really have changed my mind now. If the Cons get a polling boost under Truss and the market moves accordingly I'll be seeking to use that to get out of my (now) unwanted position.
    The two issues contrary to that view is a) Truss successfully hangs onto the coat tails of a Russian defeat in the Ukraine (50-50) and/or b) Truss allows Patel or Braverman to put the hanging of child molesters to the top of the next Conservative Manifesto agenda. (90-10).

    Having said that, I am 50-50 myself as to whether a) and/or b) will be enough to offset the economic Armageddon.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last.

    The first sentence is meaningless. It’s like saying that the house is falling down but you’re not in favour of moving out.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    Brexit is going great.

    That Remainers failed to get what they wanted absolutely is Remainers fault though, they had so many decks stacked in their favour and they failed hubristically every step of the way.

    Pointing out Remainers abysmalness in the process is no more flawed than pointing out and laughing at Man Utd's failures in recent seasons means that Man Utd's opponents are doing badly.
    Lol. You are the person I referred to in my previous post. Brexit is not "going great". It is pointless and it has no "benefits". It was a con. Only the super gullible still believe in it. By the way, Barty, Father Christmas does not exist and there are no fairies at the end of the garden. Sorry to break it to you.
    That you're unable to see any points or "benefits" to Brexit is just another example your closed and simple-mindedness. There are both cons and pros to Brexit, and as a thinking individual who was pro-Remain until the campaign I was torn in the debate weighing up both cons and pros.

    That you can only see cons and no pros whatever is just your own Mr Thickyness coming to the fore. I can see and accept and acknowledge the cons, even if I think the pros exist.

    PS as a father of 6 and 8 year old girls I can 100% insist and demonstrate that Father Christmas and fairies at the garden absolutely do exist. Father Christmas exists through me and my wife ensuring he exists and our girls can see his existence through our actions. It is up to us to make Father Christmas work, just as its up to us to get the benefits from Brexit.
    The only people who think Boris is a nice guy are those who do not know him, and the only people here who think Brexit has any benefits are those who neither import nor export goods or services for a living
    Don't be silly, there are both benefits and cons as I said. Increased paperwork etc for imports and exports is a con, I acknowledge that without hesitation. That cons exist doesn't mean that pros don't exist too and balancing cons and pros is how politics operates.

    The overwhelming majority of the country don't export or import goods or services for a living, so we shouldn't set up our politics solely on that one issue.

    Those who choose to export or import from a foreign region need to comply with the regulations that apply in doing so. That is true whether we are talking about Europe, China, the USA or anywhere else.
    So says the man that clearly does not a) know Boris Johnson and b) does not export or import goods or services for a living because, unless he is working for various right wing fanzines, does not have time to do any meaningful work due to the hours spent on here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    edited August 2022

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
    I know it's hard for you to understand, but I really do not regret my vote. If we had the eu-ref again tomorrow, I would again vote LEAVE despite ALL the shit that has happened (and, my God, there has been a ton of shit, I do not deny it - Brexit has been a mega-cluster-fuckettyshambles)

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored. It pleases me a great deal. It's all I wanted out of Brexit. The other good stuff that springs from self-governance will happen in time, it might be a long time. So be it. It's up to us now

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    TOPPING said:

    More Hosepipe bans later this week

    Not one reservoir has been built since water privatisation in 1989

    Wastage of water from leaks has tripled since 1989

    Bloke on the radio saying reservoirs have already been built where reservoirs would be best placed so it would be costly and inconvenient to build more. By far the most cost-effective approach would be to spend money on stemming the leaks which are at something like a couple of billion litres per day if I remember/heard him correctly.

    He said it would mean the public ask why should we save water when the water companies aren't saving water, which I thought was a v good point.
    There are plans for a new reservoir on the Itchen and Test in Hampshire:
    https://www.portsmouthwater.co.uk/new-reservoir/

    Note that this is the first new reservoir built in the SE since the 1970s, putting a new angle onto BJO's comment. Also note other reservoirs have been enlarged, such as Abberton in Essex, along with a new link from the River Ouse in Norfolk.

    But I think there have also been vast sums wasted on reservoirs. Take Kielder Water, built in the 1970s. This was built to provide water for the industries in the Tyne and Wear valleys - but was completed during the long death of those industries. I read that it was largely a massive waste of money (a much smaller reservoir could have been built), even when you include the hydroelectric plant.

    AS others have said, better inter-region water transport might be a better use of money than lots of new reservoirs (and stopping leakages...), as it us unlikely that all of the UK will become a drought-ridden desert.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
    I know it's hard for you to understand, but I really do not regret my vote. If we had the eu-ref again tomorrow, I would again vote LEAVE despite ALL the shit that has happened (and, my God, there has been a ton of shit, I do not deny it - Brexit has been a mega-cluster-fuckettyshambles)

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored. It pleases me a great deal. It's all I wanted out of Brexit. The other good stuff that springs from self-governance will happen in time, it might be a long time. So be it. It's up to us now

    We were always sovereign.

    But other than that, absolutely.
  • Starmer isn't very good, I am yet to see evidence as to why
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,743
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    MISTY said:

    MISTY said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    Mad Nad will presumably only accept a peerage if she is accepting that her cabinet career is over. Whilst this is something for all sane Conservatives to devoutly pray for I would not be so confident. She has been pretty chummy with Truss of late.

    Mogg wants to be a "Knight Commander" apparently. You can combine that with continuing to serve the public as an MP.
    Mogg will likely be in Truss' cabinet alongside Braverman, Kwarteng, Cleverly, Lewis, Coffey, Baker, Redwood etc. Maybe even Francois
    Ah, a Cabinet of none of the talents.
    Truss' Cabinet will likely be the most rightwing Tory Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet since IDS was leader. Most Tory moderates will refuse to serve in it and Truss will offer barely any senior posts to Sunak supporters
    How many Tory MPs have a genuine allegiance to Sunak or anybody else, either personally or politically?

    The Tory party adopted the Chinese Communist Party response to Covid, followed by the Jeremy Corbyn response to funding it. Since then they have adopted the Liz Cheney neo-con response to Ukraine, coupled with the Ed Miliband policy on energy.

    The notion that Tory MPs have any allegiance to any philosophy or principles whatever is utterly fanciful.
    Indeed, the only reason that Truss got a third of MPs backing her in the final round is that there was a three-way split between Sunak, Truss and Mordaunt. A few weeks ago Penny Mordaunt was vehemently opposing Truss while campaigning for herself to be PM instead.

    Take a glance at Mordaunt's Twitter now and tell me that she hates Truss and will refuse to be a part of her team because she was in the third of MPs that backed Mordaunt and wasn't in the third of MPs to back Truss.

    https://twitter.com/PennyMordaunt

    Times Radio
    "I'm choosing the path of ambition."

    @PennyMordaunt tells #TimesRadio she is not supporting Liz Truss because she's the frontrunner but because she wants "to make sure that we don't become an ordinary nation."


    Sky News
    Liz Truss 'understands our nation is at an inflection point' says Liz Truss supporter Penny Mordaunt - adding "her tax cuts are funded" and she has "a plan to get growth back into our economy".


    LBC
    'The things that don't work for us' in terms of EU regulations will 'go' under Liz Truss, says Trade Policy Minister Penny Mordaunt.


    Once the leadership campaign is over, or even before it once other candidates like Mordaunt are eliminated, people who backed other candidates fall in behind other candidates ending with the eventual winner.
    Its quite fun to contemplate the consternation of those MPs who are backing the wrong horse in this leadership race.

    I doubt there's much consternation whatsoever. They're politicians, they'll do what they do.

    The second the election is over and the other horse has won they'll congratulate them and offer to serve to "unite the party".
    That's not how it played out last time.
    As I said last time was the exception because they were vitriolically and existentially divided on the issue of Europe which had caused May's paralysis. So the only way for the paralysis to end was for one side to vanquish the other, which happened - most actually did accept the victory for Leave but the die hards like Grieve who couldn't had to be showed the door in order to allow governing to function and end the paralysis.

    That's not the case this time. There is no vitriolic division on a matter of politics causing division, its far more squabbling between personalities than politics this time. The biggest political issue has already been resolved and nobody is proposing changing course that significantly. The arguments over tax right now are more the narcissism of small differences that can be put behind once the argument is over in a way that couldn't happen last time.

    There's no existential issues like Remain or Leave, Deal or No Deal anymore.
    Ken Clarke, who accepted the result without quibble and voted consistently for every different flavour of Brexit put in front of him, was also "shown the door".
    He voted against the Government on a confidence motion to not extend Article 50, so no he didn't accept the result without quibble.

    He served in a Cabinet that pulled the same trick of making it a confidence motion to pass Maastricht, so he can hardly complain when turnabout is fair play.
    That was about fear of the chaos of No Deal - people (other than me) not realizing back then that it was a bluff. Fact is, no high profile Remainer accepted the result better than KC. The May deal, he voted for, all varieties of EFTA, Norway, Turkey, whatever, he voted for, even the shit sandwich that was the Johnson deal, he voted for. Not enough for the Johnson gang. Not pure enough. Not reckless enough. Not enough of a toady.
    Clarke consistently maneuvered against any EU referendum ever, and did dirty tricks thereby. He is one of the chief if distant architects of Brexit, ironically enough. Because, by denying a vote earlier, they ended up with a catastrophically angry vote, later. He must be ranked along with Blair, Cameron, Heseltine, Major, etc etc

    Clarke has always seemed a more thoughtful man than Heseltine and Major and others, however. I wonder if he now, ruefully, realises his epochal mistake. I kind of hope so, because I kind of like him
    One gauge of how badly Brexit is going is how Leavers now claim that Remainers made them do it.
    What? I've made this argument from the day of the Brexit vote, and indeed made it for many years before

    Brexit only arrived because we were not allowed an EU vote beforehand for decades, so the seething resentment built and built, until we got the ultimate, tragic rupture

    Very silly by europhiles. But tis done now

    I get the feeling that in a year or two the polls will start tipping back to Less Regret about Brexit. The last poll, in fact, showed perhaps the first signs of this possible shift. I also note that in a recent poll on the salience of issues just 2% of people put "Brexit" in the front rank of problems facing Britain

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back
    'I've made this argument from the day of the Brexit vote'

    Joined December 2020

    Just have to take your word for it I guess.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    edited August 2022

    Opinium

    LAB 37
    CON 34

    Best PM Truss leads SKS

    I am at a loss can any SKS fans please explain

    Starmer is a complete dud. Appallingly poor.
    Ahh that would explain it.

    SKS fans do not concur (yet)
    Hey old chap, hope you are well.

    Who should replace KS and why would they be doing better? I would like polling evidence to support your conclusion
    We have to assume that BJO would like to see the return of that crowd pleaser and (non) winner of elections and Putin apologist extraordinaire, the man affectionately known to PBers as Magic Grandpa or Mr. Thicky.

    Corbyn thinks we shouldn't be arming the Ukrainians because it is prolonging the conflict. Which of course is probably true, because if we didn't Putin would have quickly won, which perhaps Jezza would be pleased about.

    Why is Corbyn a sympathiser for a militaristic imperialist and murderer, Vladimir Putin? Corbyn fan please explain?
    Corbyn has called for Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukraine, and also called for stronger sanctions after Crimea than the Tories imposed. He might be a useful idiot but is surely not a Russian partisan.
    He's absolutely a Russia partisan.

    He's "called for Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukraine" to save face while calling for the West to stop sending munitions to Ukraine.

    If those policies were followed then Russia would roll over anywhere it wanted to do so while Corbyn would stand there saying "peace, lets talk about peace".

    The only way to stop Russia is via force, and Corbyn is utterly opposed to that.
    Nah - nobody who knows Corbyn would think he had the slightest interest in saving face. He's essentially a pacifist - opposed to the Russian invasion, which he sees as imperialist aggression, opposed to throwing arms into the conflict, favours tougher sanctions to force the Russians into line. But in any case he's a backbencher with zero influence on government or opposition.

    FWIW I think the war is grinding to a stalemate - both sides are claiming gains of single "settlements" (which seem to be clumps of houses, smaller than villages), and missile strikes hitting supply dumps and bridges. If nothing much happens in the autumn, General Winter will freeze the positions further.
    Possibly. But the Ukrainians have made big claims about liberating Kherson and with the bridges down the Russian army there is vulnerable. I'd also wonder why it is that Russia is threatening nuclear meltdown if their current positions are relatively secure.

    I'm surprised more of the war experts aren't talking about it. Maybe they worry that it will create demands in Europe for peace at any price?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,729
    "Increased regulatory burdens due to Brexit have hit 54% of businesses."

    When touting the 'benefits' of Brexit, many of its proponents hugely underestimate its impact, by looking ONLY at direct exporters, rather than the whole supply chain. ~AA


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-manufacturing-data-gvc-covid-b2140636.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,558
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    With respect - is it possible (just theoretically) that they might prefer other topics upon which you might agree?
    Maybe, lol

    But I sense a dying of the fire. The Remoaners were furiously angry for quite a while, then quietly seething, now they seem wistfully fine about it. If it is mentioned they tut and look a bit sad, but not for long

    No one has died. Britain is still here. There are more important things
    It's more that, just as Brexit was a huge and damaging distraction from the effective government if the country, any attempt to reopen the debate in the middle of the current crises would be a similar distraction.

    I don't expect any real debate to reopen until after a period of relative peace and economic stability. If and when the underperformance of Brexited UK becomes a matter of public consensus.

    In the meantime we'll content ourselves with occasionally taking the piss out of its more glaring absurdities.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,206
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
    I know it's hard for you to understand, but I really do not regret my vote. If we had the eu-ref again tomorrow, I would again vote LEAVE despite ALL the shit that has happened (and, my God, there has been a ton of shit, I do not deny it - Brexit has been a mega-cluster-fuckettyshambles)

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored. It pleases me a great deal. It's all I wanted out of Brexit. The other good stuff that springs from self-governance will happen in time, it might be a long time. So be it. It's up to us now

    We were always sovereign.

    But other than that, absolutely.
    Shall we just not do this argument for the 937th time?

    I'm right, you're wrong; you feel completely differently. There it is
  • DynamoDynamo Posts: 651
    edited August 2022
    Antonio Guterres should sack his handlers or else he is a big gumbie. He reckons any kind of nuclear war would mean "the destruction of the planet" (er no, mate - go and read a book or something), and that any attack on a nuke plant is "suicidal". Seriously, why would Russian forces shell a plant they're already in? Cutting off the output - good for Russian side. "Accident" at the plant itself - good for Ukrainian side. Obvious reasons in both cases. Funny outfit, the IAEA - clear illustration that not everything has been "balanced" inside the UNSC.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766

    Brexit is already collapsing under the weight of its own ridiculous contradictions and pointlessness. Although I am not in favour of rejoin, I am more and more convinced that give it 25/30 years and it is inevitable, particularly when the Col. Blimp boomer generation has breathed it's last.

    The first sentence is meaningless. It’s like saying that the house is falling down but you’re not in favour of moving out.
    Keep working on those metaphors. Brexit is, after all, a philosophical position, even though it might well be the philosophy of the braindead. It is therefore quite possible for it to collapse under the weight of it's own contradiction and for most people, with the exception of Barty, to realise it was pointless. You, on the other hand, might experience a big metaphorical gust of wind and find yourself pointing back in a remainery direction.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,729
    Leon said:

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored.

    We gifted control of Dover to the French.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Surely BJO has peaked with his suggestion that SKS would be a war criminal if given the chance? I mean, where does he go from there?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583

    Starmer isn't very good, I am yet to see evidence as to why

    Starmer is uninspiring, but that could well be enough in the face of Conservative meltdown next time for a Lib- Lab majority. What happens next is anyone's guess.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,760
    edited August 2022
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
    I know it's hard for you to understand, but I really do not regret my vote. If we had the eu-ref again tomorrow, I would again vote LEAVE despite ALL the shit that has happened (and, my God, there has been a ton of shit, I do not deny it - Brexit has been a mega-cluster-fuckettyshambles)

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored. It pleases me a great deal. It's all I wanted out of Brexit. The other good stuff that springs from self-governance will happen in time, it might be a long time. So be it. It's up to us now

    It's also worth thinking about the alternative. Had we voted to stay by a narrow margin would this country be peaceful, harmonious and united? I suggest we would have had a significant number of UKIP MPs in Parliament including that prat Farage, the country would be verging on the ungovernable and demands for a second referendum every time a new consumer protection order was passed by the EU. And I have conclusive evidence of this in the form of the SNP. The fantasy that this would have just gone away is just that. A fantasy.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    The last group of people arguing about Brexit is basically Remoaners and Leavers on Twitter (and here). Everyone else is moving on. It will soon enough become a non-story and a non-issue, and we will all accept the new status quo. We ain't going back

    Somebody should tell the candidates for next PM that Brexit is no longer salient or relevant...

    A new Brexit delivery unit.

    Reviewing every EU law on our statute book.

    Starting in my first 100 days.

    Let’s keep Brexit safe👇 #Ready4Rishi http://Ready4Rishi.com https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1556590394170818560/video/1
    It's an issue with Tory MPs, and some Tory activists, not the British people

    I can't remember the last time friends or family mentioned Brexit. Even the hardcore Remoaners have surrendered to reality

    It really is niche stuff, now
    I think the niche area now is not about rejoining, it is about how long those of us that knew it was fucking pointless can carry on having a really good laugh at those of you that believed in it, and are still trying (like yourself) to convince yourself it was worthwhile when secretly you realise it was probably one of the dumbest things this country has done since Lord Cardigan buttoned up his wooly jumper, misread his orders, and shouted "charge" at a long line of guns at Sebastopol
    I know it's hard for you to understand, but I really do not regret my vote. If we had the eu-ref again tomorrow, I would again vote LEAVE despite ALL the shit that has happened (and, my God, there has been a ton of shit, I do not deny it - Brexit has been a mega-cluster-fuckettyshambles)

    I voted for sovereignty and democracy. That has been restored. It pleases me a great deal. It's all I wanted out of Brexit. The other good stuff that springs from self-governance will happen in time, it might be a long time. So be it. It's up to us now

    We were always sovereign.

    But other than that, absolutely.
    Shall we just not do this argument for the 937th time?

    I'm right, you're wrong; you feel completely differently. There it is
    I am right, as was David Davis, and you are wrong and I agree it's probably best to leave it at that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Scott_xP said:

    "Increased regulatory burdens due to Brexit have hit 54% of businesses."

    When touting the 'benefits' of Brexit, many of its proponents hugely underestimate its impact, by looking ONLY at direct exporters, rather than the whole supply chain. ~AA


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-manufacturing-data-gvc-covid-b2140636.html

    “Increased regulatory burdens irrelevant to almost half of businesses.”
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Scott_xP said:

    "Increased regulatory burdens due to Brexit have hit 54% of businesses."

    When touting the 'benefits' of Brexit, many of its proponents hugely underestimate its impact, by looking ONLY at direct exporters, rather than the whole supply chain. ~AA


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-manufacturing-data-gvc-covid-b2140636.html

    “Increased regulatory burdens irrelevant to almost half of businesses.”
    So affecting the majority of businesses.

    And this you champion. Now.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DougSeal said:

    Surely BJO has peaked with his suggestion that SKS would be a war criminal if given the chance? I mean, where does he go from there?

    Devil worship ?

    I mean, no-one can really be as boring as SKS is being portrayed.

    There has to be a dark kinky streak in his soul -- otherwise he would not be a politician :)
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