politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The referendum claims its first casualty – Alex Salmond
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AnotherRichard But that was after 17 years of centre right French rule, and even then Sarkozy came back strongly in the closing stages0
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http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/rigged-referendum-talk-on-uk-column.html
Livestream. Focus on rigged elections. Irish economy suffering another property bubble.0 -
Yes the early racing was incredibly dangerous,and many lost their lives.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Dee, not much into the history but did see a fascinating and frightening documentary about the sport in the 60s and 70s. I'm astounded it continued given how dangerous it was.
Atkinson is (I gather) a proper petrolhead.
Rowan Atkinson was racing a Mustang in a later race(Shelby cup),but unfortunately for him he got boxed in to an impossible situation and had a head on crash.
He also on another occasion crashed his road going Maclaren on the A6 somewhere near Lancaster.
Enjoy your F1.
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The sport was crazily dangerous, and Jackie Stewart deserves a great deal of credit for making it safer. As does Bernie, and the Prof, who is still sorely missed.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Dee, not much into the history but did see a fascinating and frightening documentary about the sport in the 60s and 70s. I'm astounded it continued given how dangerous it was.
Atkinson is (I gather) a proper petrolhead.
It was Jochen Rindt's death that persuaded Bernie to take safety seriously when he got semi-control of F1, He employed Rindt's daughter as his private pilot for many years.
Bernie is a very complex and mysterious character, and not at all the character his enemies paint.
He is both better and worse. And I shall leave it there, for fear for OGH's legal bills.0 -
Evening news not great for Ed Miliband, LOL!0
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Mr. Dee, I recall the crash. A McLaren F1, I think (rather pricey, and rare). Cheers, I will.
The pre-qualifying piece will be slightly later, as qualifying starts at 2pm rather than the usual 1pm. Race start is 1pm.0 -
According to the BBC it was pro-Unionists that began the trouble.SeanT said:
Someone did say the Denial (cf the petition) would be followed by the Anger.RodCrosby said:Police keeping YES/NO supporters apart in face-off at George Square, Glasgow. Reports of scuffles and rising tension...
"The trouble started very quickly with the charge from the Loyalist side. We believe it was a coordinated charge. It came from different parts of the square and different angles.
You could see flares going off in different directions. You could see people running in and they had concealed Union flags within their coats and jackets which they pulled out."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-291302770 -
You brought the topic up, not me! When I reply, you say, don't raise such an issue. You're a Switcher. Change name from Watcher instantly. How come only theories you agree with are to be permitted? OGH may well dislike many theories, but betting is based entirely on such things. Do you want the site closed down?TheWatcher said:
It's probably best for OGH, if the weird and fanciful theories are confined to your own website.Tapestry said:
You might have added that the pictures prove the beheadings were false, Watcher. Or are you here to distort information and keep everyone asleep? Thought so.TheWatcher said:
Anyone tempted to go near Tapestry's website should be aware that it contains some deeply unpleasant and dis-tasteful images of beheaded ISIS captives.Tapestry said:
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Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...0
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The epetition is the maddest thing I've seen for a very long time.0
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If the House of Commons also practices EV4EL, then logically, apart from Foreign Affairs and Defence, no other department can have a Scot, a Welsh or Northern Irish as a SoS or Minister unless they came from the HoL.
The Prime Minister has to be an English MP. So much for democracy ! So much for equal before law !
First class citizens and the rest !
Don't get me wrong. EV4EL is perfectly justified on grounds of fairness. But then you must have a separate Parliament / Assembly for England or Regional Assemblies or hugely devolved Local Authorities.
Would the Federal government have much to do ? Yes they would. What does the US Federal government do ? People still want to be President, members of Congress etc.0 -
I think you've Carswell all wrong. Weather or not he went to Oxford is irrelevant in his case. I've got his book on my bedside table (put's me to sleep to be honest) but he's a revolutionary thinker when it comes to democracy. He's a one-off. A visionary perhaps. UKIP is very lucky to have him.another_richard said:
Douglas Carswell and EdM have similar privileged backgrounds, similar nerdy looks and similar wonkish tendencies.Danny565 said:Although yes, I do agree that Ed going down in Scotland about as well as a "flatulent dog in a lift" (trademark Jeremy Paxman) is yet another worrying sign. All the reasons for why Labour should win make sense on paper, but it's still hard to see how people are going to vote for someone they see as such a joke to be PM.
Yet Carswell has 'gone native' in his very wwc constituency and appears to be well liked by his constituents.
Whereas EdM can't connect with people outside his social class, doesn't seem interested in trying to connect and doesn't even seem interested in appearing to try to connect with people different to himself.
Carswell significantly didn't do PPE at Oxford.
Surely we need to move to a system of direct democracy, where the people don't delegate their decision to some MP who they didn't vote for five years ago. There are plenty of decisions that could be put to the people eg Syria and should not be left to so-called representatives. We don't even need to used technology - although surely politics will be subject to the internet revolution like all other spheres of life - we could do it Swiss-style.
I am not at all an expert on this at all. In fact I feel a bit nervous about posting this, but my intuition is that our democracy could be improved and that now is a good time to look at it. As much as I love my MP Kate Hoey, I'd happily take some of the strain off her shoulders, and make some of the decisions myself. Thanks you very much.0 -
Mrs. Free. A few years ago, pre 2010 GE, I discovered that East Sussex scored worse on the deprivation index and had a lower median income than did Greater Manchester and yet the amount allocated by HMG per child in education was a fraction of that to children in Manchester. What I could not work out was why the person who gave me this information, the Conservative Deputy-chairman of the council, was not screaming it from the rooftops. Sometimes Conservatives are not very good at politics.Cyclefree said:Greetings all.
As di Lampedusa wrote in The Leopard: "Everything needs to change, so everything can stay the same").
Constitutional issues are of very little interest to most voters and I doubt that the WLQ will be the magic bullet the Tories imagine. Plus it risks looking as if the political class is simply thinking about itself rather than about the voters.
And the very last thing we need are more layers of government and more politicians.
Unless Cameron can make a clear connection between the issue and how it affects voters, I doubt it will make much traction, certainly not enough to change votes next May. Cameron could hammer the "unfairness" argument of course but that leaves him open to attacks on other front.
Mr. Socrates earlier today posted in here some very simple to understand figures, Spend per English person £8k, spend per Scottish person £10k. It really doesn't need a complex argument that people will not be able to follow to suggest that something might not be right.
Actually for a party like UKIP it is just one series of open goals.0 -
She would be truly terrible. Not just because am a Tory, but because she is just the pits.surbiton said:0 -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.0 -
I think Atkinson's crashed his McLaren F1 twice. The second time was, from memory, the priciest insurance car insurance claim in British history; just short of a million pounds.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Dee, I recall the crash. A McLaren F1, I think (rather pricey, and rare). Cheers, I will.
The pre-qualifying piece will be slightly later, as qualifying starts at 2pm rather than the usual 1pm. Race start is 1pm.
I think that affected his no-claims bonus.
He also helped rescue another F1 driver from a crash earlier this year.
I love the McLaren F1, and if I had a few million I would buy one (*). Decades after it was made it is still, for me, the finest car ever. Gordon Murray (the car's designer, and the designer of many racing F1 cars) rivals Newey, Chapman and Enzo as best F1 designer ever.
(*) It might be hard to persuade Mrs J that a multi-million pound car is a sensible buy ...0 -
Well if you want to make French comparisons then electorally it is:HYUFD said:AnotherRichard But that was after 17 years of centre right French rule, and even then Sarkozy came back strongly in the closing stages
Chirac = Blair
Sarkozy = Brown
Hollande = Cameron
The fact is that Labour still have huge voting blocks whose support they will get next May irrespective of how they perceive EdM.
An enthusiastic vote isn't worth more than a grudging vote.
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Cyclefree: That is the point. All this talk about Labour getting MPs with fewer votes is just because of Tory incompetence. In Scotland they have 1 MP. In the North East they have 2 MPs.Cyclefree said:
The "unfairness" charge could be levelled at tax policy for the higher paid or re child benefit or the "bedroom" tax etc. In short, while the WLQ issue is certainly unfair in some respects I'm not sure how sensible it would necessarily be to campaign against Labour on this rather abstruse point of unfairness. There are better "unfairness" charges which could be levelled at Labour.Morris_Dancer said:Miss Cyclefree, what fronts would it leave Cameron open on? He wants it settled quickly, DevoMax for Scotland and a fair deal for the English.
If he gets it through, fine. If he doesn't, I don't think it will be an issue at the GE.
It would be better, frankly, for the Tories to start trying to get MPs outside their core areas, including in Scotland. One thing I've learned over the last 24 hours is that at the last election, the Tories got only marginally fewer votes than the SNP. They need to be more effective at converting those votes to seats.
So, 3 MPs for about a million votes.
Why do the Tories manage to get only 1 MP in Scotland ? Because they do no work at the grass roots level. That's why. And, of course, they are hated. Why do people in Moray, Angus, Aberdeenshire, Perth, Edinburgh vote SNP / Labour ?0 -
Mr. Jessop, I fear I would have to side with Mrs Jessop in such a dispute. Very nice car, but that's silly money.0
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DavidL Yes, congratulations on your hard work, it clearly paid off, hope you can have a relaxing weekend0
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Every time you address me, the mind probe gets stronger.Tapestry said:
You brought the topic up, not me! When I reply, you say, don't raise such an issue. You're a Switcher. Change name from Watcher instantly. How come only theories you agree with are to be permitted? OGH may well dislike many theories, but betting is based entirely on such things. Do you want the site closed down?TheWatcher said:
It's probably best for OGH, if the weird and fanciful theories are confined to your own website.Tapestry said:
You might have added that the pictures prove the beheadings were false, Watcher. Or are you here to distort information and keep everyone asleep? Thought so.TheWatcher said:
Anyone tempted to go near Tapestry's website should be aware that it contains some deeply unpleasant and dis-tasteful images of beheaded ISIS captives.Tapestry said:
The scanning works over the internet now; I can literally see inside your computer from wherever we log on.0 -
In retrospect the best time for an independence referendum was 2007 - the so-called 'arc of prosperity', Scottish banks being solvent, more oil still in the ground, exhausted Labour government with the threat of an incoming Conservative government.SeanT said:
I'm not sure I agree on the Cameron thing, I still reckon he is the essay-crisis prime minister who nearly bumbled into a calamity.DavidL said:This is a good day for the Union, if not as good a day as yesterday. I say this because Salmond is devious, deceptive and a truly brilliant liar, capable of persuading even himself that black is white if the circumstances require it. In short he is an exceptionally able politician.
Sturgeon is another kettle of fish (sorry, impossible to resist). She is feisty, diligent and fierce but has few of the other skills Salmond has. The SNP will be less dangerous with her at the helm.
I also think that Salmond's achievement or lack of it should be put into some sort of context.
He held his referendum at a time there was tory led government with 1 MP in Scotland.
When that government was obliged to restrict spending and promise more cuts to come.
When North Sea oil is still a significant factor.
When Labour is led by a north London intellectual who is at least as alien to most Scots as Cameron (who is, in fact, the more popular of the two).
When he controlled the machinery of the Scottish government and had no compunction about abusing it with nonsense like the White Paper.
When he had not yet been found out in respect of a number of major goodies such as the unsustainable "free" tuition fees and free prescriptions for a Scottish health service that is now teetering on the edge of crisis having overspent to cover the cracks until the referendum took place.
It was, in fact, a perfect storm for Unionism and yet he lost. Quite badly actually. There was undoubtedly some skill in manipulating some of the pieces of that storm into place but it will be very difficult to have better circumstances in which to make a bid for independence.
People continue to underestimate Cameron. I really hope that continues.
Otherwise, all true. I think the threat of Partition has receded, possibly for many decades, certainly for a very long time. This was Peak SNP, yet they still blew it. Basically, Scots quite like being in the UK - and why not, they get a very good deal.
And once again: well done to you and thankyou for all your work. I know this last fortnight has been hard on you and your family.
But the Union is saved, for our children, and, God willing, our grandchildren. Yay.
Salmond's problem now was that he was unable to have any coherent answers to the currency question etc.
All he could offer was blind hope.
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She isn't evil.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.
And it may be best if you actually tried to uncover the real reasons it occurred, rather than trying to find convenient scapegoats.
For clarification: she had to go. But her failures were just part of a large mess involving many different people and organisations. Scapegoating her will help no-one moving forwards.0 -
Theory not agreed with? Fetch the mind probe.
I hope your mind isn't going too far down the 'probe' road.
Down boy.
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And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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Endex.Tapestry said:Theory not agreed with? Fetch the mind probe.
I hope your mind isn't going too far down the 'probe' road.
Down boy.0 -
I saw that - pretty blatant case of anti-English bias having him as the only expert.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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Very true, Mr. Jessop, but that does not mean she should be able to walk away from the consequences of her actions. Given the evidence she gave to the Parliament just a week or two ago I should imagine a fair number of victims could have a claim on her personally.JosiasJessop said:
She isn't evil.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.
And it may be best if you actually tried to uncover the real reasons it occurred, rather than trying to find convenient scapegoats.
For clarification: she had to go. But her failures were just part of a large mess involving many different people and organisations. Scapegoating her will help no-one moving forwards.
Scape-goating, no I don't agree with that. Demanding that a person be responsible for their own decisions and actions is quite another thing. Somewhere along the line we seem to have lost sight of that very simple idea and it is time we brought it back.0 -
Emily Thornberry saying "you can't just change the constitution a bit at a time". well, yes she's right, but I haven't noticed Labour taking this view up to this point.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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The differential spend is not really as a result of the WLQ, though, is it - but the Barnett formula. I agree that it is easier for people to understand but that is something which the government could change now - or at any point in the last four and a half years. It's not a law. And there are good arguments why you might need or want to spend more on more remote areas.HurstLlama said:
Mrs. Free. A few years ago, pre 2010 GE, I discovered that East Sussex scored worse on the deprivation index and had a lower median income than did Greater Manchester and yet the amount allocated by HMG per child in education was a fraction of that to children in Manchester. What I could not work out was why the person who gave me this information, the Conservative Deputy-chairman of the council, was not screaming it from the rooftops. Sometimes Conservatives are not very good at politics.Cyclefree said:Greetings all.
As di Lampedusa wrote in The Leopard: "Everything needs to change, so everything can stay the same").
Constitutional issues are of very little interest to most voters and I doubt that the WLQ will be the magic bullet the Tories imagine. Plus it risks looking as if the political class is simply thinking about itself rather than about the voters.
And the very last thing we need are more layers of government and more politicians.
Unless Cameron can make a clear connection between the issue and how it affects voters, I doubt it will make much traction, certainly not enough to change votes next May. Cameron could hammer the "unfairness" argument of course but that leaves him open to attacks on other front.
Mr. Socrates earlier today posted in here some very simple to understand figures, Spend per English person £8k, spend per Scottish person £10k. It really doesn't need a complex argument that people will not be able to follow to suggest that something might not be right.
Actually for a party like UKIP it is just one series of open goals.
The question of which MPs vote in which debates is a more arcane one. It may be important but it's not going to get most voters changing their votes. That's my point.
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Much needed. The thing we most need Nigel to do now is to bring attention to the other places. Once three have been in the news as having industrial scale rape, we will be able to properly address this as a national issue.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.0 -
She knowingly allowed children under her very well paid protection to be repeatedly raped even after she was told what was happening.JosiasJessop said:
She isn't evil.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.
And it may be best if you actually tried to uncover the real reasons it occurred, rather than trying to find convenient scapegoats.
For clarification: she had to go. But her failures were just part of a large mess involving many different people and organisations. Scapegoating her will help no-one moving forwards.
She also had children removed from foster parents whose political views she didn't like.
I wonder if any of those children were among the victims ?
There's no shortage of people who should be held responsible for their actions and non-actions involving Rotherham but that doesn't mean that 'evil rubbish' isn't a good description of Joyce Thacker.
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Anybody see thornberry desperately floundering on English votes English measures on Channel 4???
Utterly destroyed by Gurumurthy in three minutes.0 -
@realDonald Trump - The people of Scotland have spoken—a great decision. I wish @AlexSalmond well & look forward to playing golf with him at Aberdeen!0
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Vernon Bogdanor had a big set piece article in the Standard tonight... concluded UKIP will profit.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/vernon-bogdanor-the-no-vote-opens-a-pandoras-box-of-power-struggles-9743796.html
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Endex? Financial market? As I say, switcher. Vote rigging is what we're talking about.TheWatcher said:
Endex.Tapestry said:Theory not agreed with? Fetch the mind probe.
I hope your mind isn't going too far down the 'probe' road.
Down boy.
http://the-tap.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/scottish-poll-rigged-aangirfan.html
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South Cambridgeshire Conservative shortlist
Heidi Allen (St Albans Cllr, shortlisted in SE Cambridgeshire...and she possibly won it)
Jo Churchill (Lincolnshire Cllr)
Charlotte Vere (shortlisted in Corydon South and SE Cambridgeshire, 2010 candidate in Brighton Pavilion)
Helen Whately (shortlisted in Wealden and NE Hampshire,2 010 candidate in Kingston and Surbiton)
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I agree that those who did not look after people in their care should resign or be sacked. But to call someone 'evil' is scapegoating. It's almost certainly wrong and will do f'all to help other kids in the future.HurstLlama said:
Very true, Mr. Jessop, but that does not mean she should be able to walk away from the consequences of her actions. Given the evidence she gave to the Parliament just a week or two ago I should imagine a fair number of victims could have a claim on her personally.JosiasJessop said:
She isn't evil.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
Nigels remarks re Rotherham recently may have been the tipping point, to uncoin a phrase.
Thank the lord that dreadful has finally gone. Good riddance to evil rubbish.
And it may be best if you actually tried to uncover the real reasons it occurred, rather than trying to find convenient scapegoats.
For clarification: she had to go. But her failures were just part of a large mess involving many different people and organisations. Scapegoating her will help no-one moving forwards.
Scape-goating, no I don't agree with that. Demanding that a person be responsible for their own decisions and actions is quite another thing. Somewhere along the line we seem to have lost sight of that very simple idea and it is time we brought it back.
As a matter of interest, it's odd that no-one 'interested' in child abuse has raised this week's news from Addenbrooke's hospital.0 -
Indeed and the whole tone of the piece - and of the dozens of other articles he has written over the last few years - is one of dislike and disdain for UKIP and any form of English nationalism.Blueberry said:
Vernon Bogdanor had a big set piece article in the Standard tonight... concluded UKIP will profit.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/vernon-bogdanor-the-no-vote-opens-a-pandoras-box-of-power-struggles-9743796.html
Not really surprising given that he is a former council member of Britain in Europe.0 -
@Surbiton
'If the House of Commons also practices EV4EL, then logically, apart from Foreign Affairs and Defence, no other department can have a Scot, a Welsh or Northern Irish as a SoS or Minister unless they came from the HoL.'
They can have whoever they like as SoS,but if they don't represent an English constituency they don't get to vote on an English only issue.0 -
Vernon Bogdanor was, of course, Cameron's tutor when he was at Oxford.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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The Hellenic Empire based in Byzantium WAS the Roman Empire. It was a direct continuation of the Roman state, it called itself the Roman Empire, it's people considered themselves Romans, and they referred to their language as "Roman".HurstLlama said:
The Roman Empire ended in 410AD, I thought every schoolboy knew that. The was some scuffling around after that date and a Greek empire based on Byzantium lasted until 1453.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, it would be nice to see.
Mr. Llama, I did say 'in one form or another'. Besides, at what point did the Empire cease being continuous? With Constantine? Arcadius and Honorius? When the West fell and the East did not? When the Exarchate lost Rome?
Else0 -
Why don't the Tories put EV4EL in their manifesto ? It will be another hit like your commitment for a 2017 referendum. I can see which party will prosper.JohnLilburne said:
Emily Thornberry saying "you can't just change the constitution a bit at a time". well, yes she's right, but I haven't noticed Labour taking this view up to this point.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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Oh yes I am well aware of that. I have no objection of course to him being on as a talking head but he can hardly be considered a neutral expert. Some balance might be nice.MikeSmithson said:
Vernon Bogdanor was, of course, Cameron's tutor when he was at Oxford.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
Edit: Note I make no comment on how he might have influenced Cameron's view of the EU. It is entirely possible that they hold diametrically opposed views.0 -
East Sussex is coastal and outside of Brighton largely rural.HurstLlama said:
Mrs. Free. A few years ago, pre 2010 GE, I discovered that East Sussex scored worse on the deprivation index and had a lower median income than did Greater Manchester and yet the amount allocated by HMG per child in education was a fraction of that to children in Manchester. What I could not work out was why the person who gave me this information, the Conservative Deputy-chairman of the council, was not screaming it from the rooftops. Sometimes Conservatives are not very good at politics.Cyclefree said:Greetings all.
As di Lampedusa wrote in The Leopard: "Everything needs to change, so everything can stay the same").
Constitutional issues are of very little interest to most voters and I doubt that the WLQ will be the magic bullet the Tories imagine. Plus it risks looking as if the political class is simply thinking about itself rather than about the voters.
And the very last thing we need are more layers of government and more politicians.
Unless Cameron can make a clear connection between the issue and how it affects voters, I doubt it will make much traction, certainly not enough to change votes next May. Cameron could hammer the "unfairness" argument of course but that leaves him open to attacks on other front.
Mr. Socrates earlier today posted in here some very simple to understand figures, Spend per English person £8k, spend per Scottish person £10k. It really doesn't need a complex argument that people will not be able to follow to suggest that something might not be right.
Actually for a party like UKIP it is just one series of open goals.
It is widely but erroneously believed that coastal and rural areas are always affluent and middle class.
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Just Wikipedia'd him: he's not only a PPE, he's a congratulatory PPE. Stick that on your CV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_BogdanorRichard_Tyndall said:
Indeed and the whole tone of the piece - and of the dozens of other articles he has written over the last few years - is one of dislike and disdain for UKIP and any form of English nationalism.Blueberry said:
Vernon Bogdanor had a big set piece article in the Standard tonight... concluded UKIP will profit.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/vernon-bogdanor-the-no-vote-opens-a-pandoras-box-of-power-struggles-9743796.html
Not really surprising given that he is a former council member of Britain in Europe.0 -
AnotherRichard No Cameron is Sarkozy, Hollande Miliband by any measure. Chirac an elder statesman unlike Blair. Centre right vote in both countries hit by UKIP/FN, Hollande and Miliband both very weak, promise socialism pre election, then get in, have to backtrack on many of their promises.
Sarkozy was also far further behind Hollande than Cameron behind Miliband at this stage, yet Sarkozy only lost 52-48. Both Sarkozy and Cameron more dynamic than their opponents and UK economy now growing and Cameron just saved the Union0 -
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That doctor was convicted - though I agree that there may be questions to be asked there as to whether anyone else knew or ought to have known about his activities. I don't know enough about the facts to comment further.JosiasJessop said:
I agree that those who did not look after people in their care should resign or be sacked. But to call someone 'evil' is scapegoating. It's almost certainly wrong and will do f'all to help other kids in the future.HurstLlama said:
Very true, Mr. Jessop, but that does not mean she should be able to walk away from the consequences of her actions. Given the evidence she gave to the Parliament just a week or two ago I should imagine a fair number of victims could have a claim on her personally.JosiasJessop said:
She isn't evil.MikeK said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29286638
Rotherham abuse scandal: Children's services director Joyce Thacker quits
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And it may be best if you actually tried to uncover the real reasons it occurred, rather than trying to find convenient scapegoats.
For clarification: she had to go. But her failures were just part of a large mess involving many different people and organisations. Scapegoating her will help no-one moving forwards.
Scape-goating, no I don't agree with that. Demanding that a person be responsible for their own decisions and actions is quite another thing. Somewhere along the line we seem to have lost sight of that very simple idea and it is time we brought it back.
As a matter of interest, it's odd that no-one 'interested' in child abuse has raised this week's news from Addenbrooke's hospital.
The reason why Rotherham resonates is the scale, the time period, the fact that so little was done over such a prolonged period by the authorities despite them being told - repeatedly - and the various reasons why they failed to take action. And the fact that it seems to be one of many towns where similar things have happened. It is the wholesale failure of the authorities - the public services which are so often praised (particularly by the political party which was in charge of the council at the time) - to do the most basic job of all, coupled with a sense of entitlement and lack of shame which is so infuriating and scandalous. Rightly so, in my opinion.
And I would feel the same about the authorities' failure if that failure was in relation to some other crime which was ignored e.g. mugging or burglary or murder or fraud. The fact that it was child abuse makes it worse not least because those children, white and black, boys and girls, will be living with the emotional and physical trauma for the rest of their lives, as will the victims of that Addenbrooke's doctor. It is heartbreaking.
0 -
Good evening everyone. I have just spent a great two hours reading today's threads. Many thanks to Mike and the team for keeping pb.com going.
I am naturally conservative with constitutional change, yet I also accept that a timetable has been promised to Scotland which needs to be respected and as such we must show the rest of the UK this will not see them ignored. Constitutional conventions are all well and good, but slow, can lack transparency and guarantee nothing. There must be some initial action from Westminster on England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
It seems to me pretty common sense that with more powers to the devolved assemblies the issue of West Lothian has to be addressed. I believe our unwritten, mish-mash constitution is a strength overall and thus we will not get any 'solution' in a traditional sense of the word.
EV4EL is imperfect but is the appropriate starting point for action and one that can be implemented relatively easily. In short we would be saying that the UK Government leads on the executive functions of England (imperfect in a pure theoretical exercise, but with England having 85% of MPs in Westminster balanced somewhat) but that they must gain the consent of a majority of English based MPs for their legislation to pass. This seems a great first step.
Perhaps an English Parliament and Executive will follow, but I think we see how EV4EL works first. I am also sympathetic to some devolution within England, but this must come only after we have formal recognition of England as a political entity - we are a nation too. Just because we are large compared to our partners is no reason for discrimination on this issue.
Personally I think we will end up with a convention that non-English based MPs don't act as UK Health Secretary, but this does not impact the UK departments and is actually not a deal breaker. Why? Because even if a Scottish based MP was Health Secretary in London, they would still need to win a majority of English MP votes to get laws passed and they would still be responsible to voters in the sense they would fall if their party fell at a General Election.
Yes there are questions, including over the Lords response to a split majority between England-only and UK votes, but we should not see muddling through and a lack of smooth constitutional edges as a weakness per se. But their is an unfairness in Westminster which EV4EL can begin to address.0 -
I like that quote attributed to him at the end of his biographyBlueberry said:
Just Wikipedia'd him: he's not only a PPE, he's a congratulatory PPE. Stick that on your CV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_BogdanorRichard_Tyndall said:
Indeed and the whole tone of the piece - and of the dozens of other articles he has written over the last few years - is one of dislike and disdain for UKIP and any form of English nationalism.Blueberry said:
Vernon Bogdanor had a big set piece article in the Standard tonight... concluded UKIP will profit.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/vernon-bogdanor-the-no-vote-opens-a-pandoras-box-of-power-struggles-9743796.html
Not really surprising given that he is a former council member of Britain in Europe.
"Bogdanor recently said that the democratic deficit in England "was a price worth paying", in order to secure the continuance of the United Kingdom."
Hardly a neutral observer.0 -
We need changes to the way we are governed and I do not trust politicians to do this without a genuine consultation process with the voters. The ERS and Unlock Democracy have come up with a petition for there to be a "constitutional convention" to give the people a chance to air their views on how the UK should be governed in the future:
http://action.electoral-reform.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1754&ea.campaign.id=31835
http://act.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1810&ea.campaign.id=31743
The mainstream political parties need to look beyond their self interest to find a solution which gives the Union its best chance of long term survival.0 -
Sky reporting the referendum result for Yes vote as 44.7% - I was out by whacking 00.24 ; )0
-
Thinking of Christmas, is half a dozen of cooking Krug still ok? Not a very personal gift of course, for people I have fallen out of touch with a bit.0
-
My pred was 44.65%, but apparently someone got it spot on.SimonStClare said:Sky reporting the referendum result for Yes vote as 44.7% - I was out by whacking 00.24 ; )
0 -
Why does it have to be the HoC ? Why not an English Assembly or several English assemblies ? What kind of Parliament will it be that, theoretically, a Prime Minister, cannot vote on policies he was himself instrumental in deciding ?john_zims said:@Surbiton
'If the House of Commons also practices EV4EL, then logically, apart from Foreign Affairs and Defence, no other department can have a Scot, a Welsh or Northern Irish as a SoS or Minister unless they came from the HoL.'
They can have whoever they like as SoS,but if they don't represent an English constituency they don't get to vote on an English only issue.
Effectively, you will be banning any non English person from becoming Prime MInister. All because you cannot win seats in Scotland despite getting 16% of the votes.0 -
Charlotte Vere took the Conservatives from second to third in a target seat.AndreaParma_82 said:South Cambridgeshire Conservative shortlist
Heidi Allen (St Albans Cllr, shortlisted in SE Cambridgeshire...and she possibly won it)
Jo Churchill (Lincolnshire Cllr)
Charlotte Vere (shortlisted in Corydon South and SE Cambridgeshire, 2010 candidate in Brighton Pavilion)
Helen Whately (shortlisted in Wealden and NE Hampshire,2 010 candidate in Kingston and Surbiton)
Helen Whately was a Tatler Tory.
0 -
"Romans" built roads, fought in legions successfully against the odds, debated and back-stabbed, and were generally a bit flash. I don't see that the eastern empire was a continuity.Socrates said:
The Hellenic Empire based in Byzantium WAS the Roman Empire. It was a direct continuation of the Roman state, it called itself the Roman Empire, it's people considered themselves Romans, and they referred to their language as "Roman".
The actions of UK plc these days aren't really to be equated with those of the British Empire.
410AD, but really quite a bit before.
0 -
Jolly well done Mr Hucks67 - unfortunately that is were the glory ends for me, I was miles out on turn-out : (hucks67 said:
My pred was 44.65%, but apparently someone got it spot on.SimonStClare said:Sky reporting the referendum result for Yes vote as 44.7% - I was out by whacking 00.24 ; )
0 -
My pred on turnout was 84.00%, but again someone guessed much closer to the 84.59%.SimonStClare said:
Jolly well done Mr Hucks67 - unfortunately that is were the glory ends for me, I was miles out on turn-out : (hucks67 said:
My pred was 44.65%, but apparently someone got it spot on.SimonStClare said:Sky reporting the referendum result for Yes vote as 44.7% - I was out by whacking 00.24 ; )
Although my preds were good, I might not be in the top 10.0 -
That quote is what the debate over the coming months is going to be about. It's the nub of the issue. I like the simple logic of a 4:1:1:1 formation of a federation (nations states, HOC, HOL, monarch) but it's too many tiers of government. Especially when you add in MEPs and all the unelected tiers above them.Richard_Tyndall said:
I like that quote attributed to him at the end of his biographyBlueberry said:
Just Wikipedia'd him: he's not only a PPE, he's a congratulatory PPE. Stick that on your CV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_BogdanorRichard_Tyndall said:
Indeed and the whole tone of the piece - and of the dozens of other articles he has written over the last few years - is one of dislike and disdain for UKIP and any form of English nationalism.Blueberry said:
Vernon Bogdanor had a big set piece article in the Standard tonight... concluded UKIP will profit.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/vernon-bogdanor-the-no-vote-opens-a-pandoras-box-of-power-struggles-9743796.html
Not really surprising given that he is a former council member of Britain in Europe.
"Bogdanor recently said that the democratic deficit in England "was a price worth paying", in order to secure the continuance of the United Kingdom."
Hardly a neutral observer.
I will try and finish Carswell's book to see what he concludes. Personally I hate this five year MP parliamentary nonsense. I'd rather my vote was worth 1 in 60 million instead of the 0 in 60 million it's worth today.0 -
Rome was a continuation of Babylon and Egypt. Britain and the US the continuation of Rome, financial leadership in London (shared with Switzerland - the central bankers), military in Washington.Omnium said:
"Romans" built roads, fought in legions successfully against the odds, debated and back-stabbed, and were generally a bit flash. I don't see that the eastern empire was a continuity.Socrates said:
The Hellenic Empire based in Byzantium WAS the Roman Empire. It was a direct continuation of the Roman state, it called itself the Roman Empire, it's people considered themselves Romans, and they referred to their language as "Roman".
The actions of UK plc these days aren't really to be equated with those of the British Empire.
410AD, but really quite a bit before.
The same bloodlines have controlled the globe for five thousand years, and probably longer.0 -
Chuka blustering hopelessly on Sky.
You can see the fear.
0 -
Give us a break. The Union has survived. 'People' just want to get on with their lives. If you want to do something yourself join a political party. But spare us 'the people' which is just another word for opinionated pushy loudmouths, Lords and millionaires with money to peddle opinion polls and sundry pressure groups.Goupillon said:We need changes to the way we are governed and I do not trust politicians to do this without a genuine consultation process with the voters. The ERS and Unlock Democracy have come up with a petition for there to be a "constitutional convention" to give the people a chance to air their views on how the UK should be governed in the future:
http://action.electoral-reform.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1754&ea.campaign.id=31835
http://act.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1810&ea.campaign.id=31743
The mainstream political parties need to look beyond their self interest to find a solution which gives the Union its best chance of long term survival.
And if 10,000 'people' air 10,000 views who sorts it all out and will 9,999 be happy at the end when thet are ignored? Will the 'people' take the blame if it turns out a mess?
If politics were just a matter of petitions then it would be easy and even I could be PM. But its not and what is all too easy is the endless moaning.0 -
The US federal government spends the vast majority of its time and money doing things which are either counterproductive or could safely be left to the states.surbiton said:Would the Federal government have much to do ? Yes they would. What does the US Federal government do ? People still want to be President, members of Congress etc.
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I thought that was exactly how we did it here in Britain.JohnLilburne said:
Emily Thornberry saying "you can't just change the constitution a bit at a time".Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
Well it was in their last manifesto, maybe they can make it more prominent this time if they think it will play particularly well.surbiton said:
Why don't the Tories put EV4EL in their manifesto ? It will be another hit like your commitment for a 2017 referendum. I can see which party will prosper.JohnLilburne said:
Emily Thornberry saying "you can't just change the constitution a bit at a time". well, yes she's right, but I haven't noticed Labour taking this view up to this point.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
It also stated the PM and other Ministers would go to Holyrood for questioning on a regular basis - I don't recall hearing about such a thing happening. Anyone know if it has?0 -
Mr. Richard, some people might well believe that coastal and rural areas are affluent. However, one would hope and expect that HMG would work on actual figures not common belief. That under Gordon Brown's administration was it would seem a hope too many. I find it very difficult to believe anything other that places like East Sussex were deprived of funds so that money could be diverted to Labour voting areas.another_richard said:
East Sussex is coastal and outside of Brighton largely rural.HurstLlama said:
Mrs. Free. A few years ago, pre 2010 GE, I discovered that East Sussex scored worse on the deprivation index and had a lower median income than did Greater Manchester and yet the amount allocated by HMG per child in education was a fraction of that to children in Manchester. What I could not work out was why the person who gave me this information, the Conservative Deputy-chairman of the council, was not screaming it from the rooftops. Sometimes Conservatives are not very good at politics.Cyclefree said:Greetings all.
As di Lampedusa wrote in The Leopard: "Everything needs to change, so everything can stay the same").
Constitutional issues are of very little interest to most voters and I doubt that the WLQ will be the magic bullet the Tories imagine. Plus it risks looking as if the political class is simply thinking about itself rather than about the voters.
And the very last thing we need are more layers of government and more politicians.
Unless Cameron can make a clear connection between the issue and how it affects voters, I doubt it will make much traction, certainly not enough to change votes next May. Cameron could hammer the "unfairness" argument of course but that leaves him open to attacks on other front.
Mr. Socrates earlier today posted in here some very simple to understand figures, Spend per English person £8k, spend per Scottish person £10k. It really doesn't need a complex argument that people will not be able to follow to suggest that something might not be right.
Actually for a party like UKIP it is just one series of open goals.
It is widely but erroneously believed that coastal and rural areas are always affluent and middle class.0 -
That's not really true though. In fact I'm pretty confident that everything you've said is nonsense. I'm not wishing to be rude here, but I completely dispute what you've said.Tapestry said:
Rome was a continuation of Babylon and Egypt. Britain and the US the continuation of Rome, financial leadership in London (shared with Switzerland - the central bankers), military in Washington.Omnium said:
"Romans" built roads, fought in legions successfully against the odds, debated and back-stabbed, and were generally a bit flash. I don't see that the eastern empire was a continuity.Socrates said:
The Hellenic Empire based in Byzantium WAS the Roman Empire. It was a direct continuation of the Roman state, it called itself the Roman Empire, it's people considered themselves Romans, and they referred to their language as "Roman".
The actions of UK plc these days aren't really to be equated with those of the British Empire.
410AD, but really quite a bit before.
The same bloodlines have controlled the globe for five thousand years, and probably longer.
0 -
Do Tories also have all women shortlists ?another_richard said:
Charlotte Vere took the Conservatives from second to third in a target seat.AndreaParma_82 said:South Cambridgeshire Conservative shortlist
Heidi Allen (St Albans Cllr, shortlisted in SE Cambridgeshire...and she possibly won it)
Jo Churchill (Lincolnshire Cllr)
Charlotte Vere (shortlisted in Corydon South and SE Cambridgeshire, 2010 candidate in Brighton Pavilion)
Helen Whately (shortlisted in Wealden and NE Hampshire,2 010 candidate in Kingston and Surbiton)
Helen Whately was a Tatler Tory.0 -
"I don't know enough about the facts to comment further. "Cyclefree said:
That doctor was convicted - though I agree that there may be questions to be asked there as to whether anyone else knew or ought to have known about his activities. I don't know enough about the facts to comment further.
The reason why Rotherham resonates is the scale, the time period, the fact that so little was done over such a prolonged period by the authorities despite them being told - repeatedly - and the various reasons why they failed to take action. And the fact that it seems to be one of many towns where similar things have happened. It is the wholesale failure of the authorities - the public services which are so often praised (particularly by the political party which was in charge of the council at the time) - to do the most basic job of all, coupled with a sense of entitlement and lack of shame which is so infuriating and scandalous. Rightly so, in my opinion.
And I would feel the same about the authorities' failure if that failure was in relation to some other crime which was ignored e.g. mugging or burglary or murder or fraud. The fact that it was child abuse makes it worse not least because those children, white and black, boys and girls, will be living with the emotional and physical trauma for the rest of their lives, as will the victims of that Addenbrooke's doctor. It is heartbreaking.
Then that makes the rest of your comment superfluous. As it happens, CEOP knew that he was a suspect, yet did not tell the hospital he worked for for eighteen months. This would be cock-up rather than conspiracy, and is exactly the sort of organisational cock-up that will get lost in the current Rotherham witch-hunt.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-29240758
I want people who did wrong in Rotherham and elsewhere to face justice. I also want to prevent further such abuses.
Simple answers will achieve neither aim.0 -
I think you are talking broad sense. (Sorry to everyone to 'quote' all of your text but I think its worth repeating a bit of rational thought)JamesM said:Good evening everyone. I have just spent a great two hours reading today's threads. Many thanks to Mike and the team for keeping pb.com going.
I am naturally conservative with constitutional change, yet I also accept that a timetable has been promised to Scotland which needs to be respected and as such we must show the rest of the UK this will not see them ignored. Constitutional conventions are all well and good, but slow, can lack transparency and guarantee nothing. There must be some initial action from Westminster on England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
It seems to me pretty common sense that with more powers to the devolved assemblies the issue of West Lothian has to be addressed. I believe our unwritten, mish-mash constitution is a strength overall and thus we will not get any 'solution' in a traditional sense of the word.
EV4EL is imperfect but is the appropriate starting point for action and one that can be implemented relatively easily. In short we would be saying that the UK Government leads on the executive functions of England (imperfect in a pure theoretical exercise, but with England having 85% of MPs in Westminster balanced somewhat) but that they must gain the consent of a majority of English based MPs for their legislation to pass. This seems a great first step.
Perhaps an English Parliament and Executive will follow, but I think we see how EV4EL works first. I am also sympathetic to some devolution within England, but this must come only after we have formal recognition of England as a political entity - we are a nation too. Just because we are large compared to our partners is no reason for discrimination on this issue.
Personally I think we will end up with a convention that non-English based MPs don't act as UK Health Secretary, but this does not impact the UK departments and is actually not a deal breaker. Why? Because even if a Scottish based MP was Health Secretary in London, they would still need to win a majority of English MP votes to get laws passed and they would still be responsible to voters in the sense they would fall if their party fell at a General Election.
Yes there are questions, including over the Lords response to a split majority between England-only and UK votes, but we should not see muddling through and a lack of smooth constitutional edges as a weakness per se. But their is an unfairness in Westminster which EV4EL can begin to address.
0 -
A glorious day today putzing around South Uist and Benbecula.
Amazing how quickly the forest of YES posters have disappeared. I think many took them down whilst it was still dark - most on Barra were gone by first light.0 -
I am an active member of a political party and I am not a moaner. Have you fully taken in just what has happened during the last 24 hours?Flightpath said:
Give us a break. The Union has survived. 'People' just want to get on with their lives. If you want to do something yourself join a political party. But spare us 'the people' which is just another word for opinionated pushy loudmouths, Lords and millionaires with money to peddle opinion polls and sundry pressure groups.Goupillon said:We need changes to the way we are governed and I do not trust politicians to do this without a genuine consultation process with the voters. The ERS and Unlock Democracy have come up with a petition for there to be a "constitutional convention" to give the people a chance to air their views on how the UK should be governed in the future:
http://action.electoral-reform.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1754&ea.campaign.id=31835
http://act.unlockdemocracy.org.uk/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=1810&ea.campaign.id=31743
The mainstream political parties need to look beyond their self interest to find a solution which gives the Union its best chance of long term survival.
And if 10,000 'people' air 10,000 views who sorts it all out and will 9,999 be happy at the end when thet are ignored? Will the 'people' take the blame if it turns out a mess?
If politics were just a matter of petitions then it would be easy and even I could be PM. But its not and what is all too easy is the endless moaning.
0 -
@Josias Jessop
"I want people who did wrong in Rotherham and elsewhere to face justice. I also want to prevent further such abuses.
Simple answers will achieve neither aim."
Actually, Mr. J, what you say in your first paragraph is in fact a demand for simple answers. "Was Fred Smith guilty of an offence?" is a very simple question. "Care workers do not allow under age girls in your care to go out unaccompanied" is a very simple instruction (and one which might have saved a lot young people from harm).
You second paragraph is beyond me.0 -
The obvious sensible solution and the one I've been advocating.JamesM said:Good evening everyone. I have just spent a great two hours reading today's threads. Many thanks to Mike and the team for keeping pb.com going.
I am naturally conservative with constitutional change, yet I also accept that a timetable has been promised to Scotland which needs to be respected and as such we must show the rest of the UK this will not see them ignored. Constitutional conventions are all well and good, but slow, can lack transparency and guarantee nothing. There must be some initial action from Westminster on England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
It seems to me pretty common sense that with more powers to the devolved assemblies the issue of West Lothian has to be addressed. I believe our unwritten, mish-mash constitution is a strength overall and thus we will not get any 'solution' in a traditional sense of the word.
EV4EL is imperfect but is the appropriate starting point for action and one that can be implemented relatively easily. In short we would be saying that the UK Government leads on the executive functions of England (imperfect in a pure theoretical exercise, but with England having 85% of MPs in Westminster balanced somewhat) but that they
Yes there are questions, including over the Lords response to a split majority between England-only and UK votes, but we should not see muddling through and a lack of smooth constitutional edges as a weakness per se. But their is an unfairness in Westminster which EV4EL can begin to address.
Not going to happen though. Labour will make sure of that and they are already spinning it as tory gerrymandering. That will stick, lefties will rally round, and Miliband is going to be PM in 8 months anyway so Dave will get nowhere with it anyway.
Unfortunately for us tories, it's what we inflicted on Wales and Scotland in the 80s and 90s without a majority there, so there will be little sympathy now.0 -
That's the big lie - that recorded history started around 400 BC, when in fact 99% of all previous records were deliberately destroyed, as in the burning of the Great Library at Alexandria. The decision was taken to obliterate history, so that people could be more easily manipulated.Omnium said:
That's not really true though. In fact I'm pretty confident that everything you've said is nonsense. I'm not wishing to be rude here, but I completely dispute what you've said.Tapestry said:
Rome was a continuation of Babylon and Egypt. Britain and the US the continuation of Rome, financial leadership in London (shared with Switzerland - the central bankers), military in Washington.Omnium said:
"Romans" built roads, fought in legions successfully against the odds, debated and back-stabbed, and were generally a bit flash. I don't see that the eastern empire was a continuity.Socrates said:
The Hellenic Empire based in Byzantium WAS the Roman Empire. It was a direct continuation of the Roman state, it called itself the Roman Empire, it's people considered themselves Romans, and they referred to their language as "Roman".
The actions of UK plc these days aren't really to be equated with those of the British Empire.
410AD, but really quite a bit before.
The same bloodlines have controlled the globe for five thousand years, and probably longer.
I see you share in the general ignorance, Omnium, which you can hardly be b
lamed for.0 -
Ishmael_X, I don't mean it to be vulgar - I started twenty five years ago and it wasn't a especial gift then. But to replace it with two dozen Sipsmith would have the appearance of thinking them alchoholics. So...0
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I did not give a simple answer. I don't see why my comments on Rotherham - which I have looked at in detail - are superfluous. If CEOP did not tell the hospital about their suspicions then it is worth understanding why and whether the right decision was made.JosiasJessop said:
"I don't know enough about the facts to comment further. "Cyclefree said:
That doctor was convicted - though I agree that there may be questions to be asked there as to whether anyone else knew or ought to have known about his activities. I don't know enough about the facts to comment further.
The reason why Rotherham resonates is the scale, the time period, the fact that so little was done over such a prolonged period by the authorities despite them being told - repeatedly - and the various reasons why they failed to take action. And the fact that it seems to be one of many towns where similar things have happened. It is the wholesale failure of the authorities - the public services which are so often praised (particularly by the political party which was in charge of the council at the time) - to do the most basic job of all, coupled with a sense of entitlement and lack of shame which is so infuriating and scandalous. Rightly so, in my opinion.
And I would feel the same about the authorities' failure if that failure was in relation to some other crime which was ignored e.g. mugging or burglary or murder or fraud. The fact that it was child abuse makes it worse not least because those children, white and black, boys and girls, will be living with the emotional and physical trauma for the rest of their lives, as will the victims of that Addenbrooke's doctor. It is heartbreaking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-29240758
I want people who did wrong in Rotherham and elsewhere to face justice. I also want to prevent further such abuses.
Simple answers will achieve neither aim.
It is perfectly possible to deal with this case and the Rotherham case as well. It's not either/or as you well know. But it is legitimate to point out that - so far - the authorities have gone quiet on Rotherham and seem to be taking no further steps. The concern is that they may be embarrassed to do so. There has been far too much of this so far - authorities turning a blind eye - for us to tolerate it again.
Or it could be that they feel that with the PCC and Thacker gone, there have been a couple of sacrifices and so nothing more is needed. I don't agree. Like you I think pointing the finger at a couple of people is not enough when it is clear that there was a systemic issue which needs understanding and rooting out so that we try our very best to stop this happening again.
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Described him as "one of the more abler students I've taught" on the 2010 BBC election show.MikeSmithson said:
Vernon Bogdanor was, of course, Cameron's tutor when he was at Oxford.Richard_Tyndall said:
And unfortunately using the arch Europhile Vernon Bogdanor who sees EV4EL as a stepping stone to English nationalism and Euroscepticism as their 'expert'.CarlottaVance said:Channel 4 News exploring the West Lothian question in depth...
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I read about 'Emily Thornberry saying "you can't just change the constitution a bit at a time".'
Oh really?
Has she never heard of America with its ammendments to its constitution? The well known 5th for instance or the conroversial (to some) 2nd?
Or to take another example - the French Constitution? The Constitution of the 5th Republic has lasted over 50 years. No bad going by French standards. In that time it has been amended at least twenty-three times, some sixteen of those amendments since 1996.
Thornberry is an idiot and of course as a labourite it is in her interest to prevent change which would amend the current unfair advantages to her party. We see also what happes when you *do* make major changes to the constitution - changes like devolution and how that comes up with unintended consequences, changes of course brought about by labour to purely benefit labour.
Spare us your garbage Ms Thornberry. Better still Islington and Finsbury, vote her out.0 -
@Flightpath I agree. Political parties and politicians were the big losers last night. Decision-making needs to be 'devolved' back to the people with referendums wherever possible.
I'm absolutely certain our politics won't be done like this in a hundred years time - it'll be a push button polity where you have to make decisions the same way emails pop up.0 -
@Surbiton
'Why does it have to be the HoC ? Why not an English Assembly or several English assemblies ? What kind of Parliament will it be that, theoretically, a Prime Minister, cannot vote on policies he was himself instrumental in deciding ?'
Don't need the extra tier / cost when the same outcome can be achieved within the existing structure.
A PM not being able to vote on policies he was instrumental in deciding is the cost of devolution, if he had sufficient English MP's it wouldn't be a problem.
Alternatively you could have a SoS for England in the cabinet responsible for English only issues.
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There was no shortage of Labour voting areas or Labour MPs in East Sussex at that time - Brighton Kemptown, Brighton Pavilion, Hove, Hastings.HurstLlama said:
Mr. Richard, some people might well believe that coastal and rural areas are affluent. However, one would hope and expect that HMG would work on actual figures not common belief. That under Gordon Brown's administration was it would seem a hope too many. I find it very difficult to believe anything other that places like East Sussex were deprived of funds so that money could be diverted to Labour voting areas.another_richard said:
East Sussex is coastal and outside of Brighton largely rural.HurstLlama said:
Mrs. Free. A few years ago, pre 2010 GE, I discovered that East Sussex scored worse on the deprivation index and had a lower median income than did Greater Manchester and yet the amount allocated by HMG per child in education was a fraction of that to children in Manchester. What I could not work out was why the person who gave me this information, the Conservative Deputy-chairman of the council, was not screaming it from the rooftops. Sometimes Conservatives are not very good at politics.Cyclefree said:Greetings all.
As di Lampedusa wrote in The Leopard: "Everything needs to change, so everything can stay the same").
Constitutional issues are of very little interest to most voters and I doubt that the WLQ will be the magic bullet the Tories imagine. Plus it risks looking as if the political class is simply thinking about itself rather than about the voters.
And the very last thing we need are more layers of government and more politicians.
Unless Cameron can make a clear connection between the issue and how it affects voters, I doubt it will make much traction, certainly not enough to change votes next May. Cameron could hammer the "unfairness" argument of course but that leaves him open to attacks on other front.
Mr. Socrates earlier today posted in here some very simple to understand figures, Spend per English person £8k, spend per Scottish person £10k. It really doesn't need a complex argument that people will not be able to follow to suggest that something might not be right.
Actually for a party like UKIP it is just one series of open goals.
It is widely but erroneously believed that coastal and rural areas are always affluent and middle class.
As all four were lost narrowly by Labour in 2010 it would have been counterproductive if Brown had cut funding for electoral purposes.
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Blueberry -- ''Surely we need to move to a system of direct democracy, where the people don't delegate their decision to some MP who they didn't vote for five years ago. '' etc...
Oh come on please! Do you think anything would ever get done? Who takes responsibility? 'Responsibility' is a word that the this sort of proposal tends top ignore.
Suppose the issue was lowering the date for abortion - or abolishing it all together. If the latter, would the abolitionists take responsibility for the dead mothers who did it the amateuer way? Does the world stop whilst you arrange your plebicite on the latest geopolitical situation in say Southern Somalia or Lebannon? Do we all get our top secret briefing from MI5 or the latest intercepts from GCHQ to aid our decision making process?
Infrastructure? Have you noticed how long it take to build a nuclear power station ? Did the Victorians biuld roads railways sewers and tunnels with direct democracy?
Carswell is an idealist wacko who would fiddle whilst Rome burned and I suspect has little in common with the hate filled totalitarian tendencies of UKIP.0 -
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And Sarkozy didn't have a UKIP equivalent in the second round of voting while saving the Union has actually damaged Conservative chances next May and living standards continue to fall etc etc etc.HYUFD said:AnotherRichard No Cameron is Sarkozy, Hollande Miliband by any measure. Chirac an elder statesman unlike Blair. Centre right vote in both countries hit by UKIP/FN, Hollande and Miliband both very weak, promise socialism pre election, then get in, have to backtrack on many of their promises.
Sarkozy was also far further behind Hollande than Cameron behind Miliband at this stage, yet Sarkozy only lost 52-48. Both Sarkozy and Cameron more dynamic than their opponents and UK economy now growing and Cameron just saved the Union
The point still remains that Labour will get the votes of people who have a vested interest or think they have a vested interest in there being a Labour government. And Labour will get those votes irrespective of what they think of EdM personally.
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I'm not an expert, but I am absolutely sure that more decisions could be taken by referendums. Seems to work for this Swiss. Maybe I'm arguing for PR - I'm not really sure. But my one-in-five-year opportunity to not vote for Kate Hoey makes me convinced another system could be devised - one where my input has some weight, however minimal.Flightpath said:Blueberry -- ''Surely we need to move to a system of direct democracy, where the people don't delegate their decision to some MP who they didn't vote for five years ago. '' etc...
Oh come on please! Do you think anything would ever get done? Who takes responsibility? 'Responsibility' is a word that the this sort of proposal tends top ignore.
Suppose the issue was lowering the date for abortion - or abolishing it all together. If the latter, would the abolitionists take responsibility for the dead mothers who did it the amateuer way? Does the world stop whilst you arrange your plebicite on the latest geopolitical situation in say Southern Somalia or Lebannon? Do we all get our top secret briefing from MI5 or the latest intercepts from GCHQ to aid our decision making process?
Infrastructure? Have you noticed how long it take to build a nuclear power station ? Did the Victorians biuld roads railways sewers and tunnels with direct democracy?
Carswell is an idealist wacko who would fiddle whilst Rome burned and I suspect has little in common with the hate filled totalitarian tendencies of UKIP.0 -
I too have looked at in detail, including reading the report. I have also read other reports, grim though they are. Your comments were superfluous because you admitted you did not know about the case, but continued for a couple of paragraphs when your lack of knowledge meant the point I was making utterly escaped you.Cyclefree said:
I did not give a simple answer. I don't see why my comments on Rotherham - which I have looked at in detail - are superfluous. If CEOP did not tell the hospital about their suspicions then it is worth understanding why and whether the right decision was made.
It is perfectly possible to deal with this case and the Rotherham case as well. It's not either/or as you well know. But it is legitimate to point out that - so far - the authorities have gone quiet on Rotherham and seem to be taking no further steps. The concern is that they may be embarrassed to do so. There has been far too much of this so far - authorities turning a blind eye - for us to tolerate it again.
Or it could be that they feel that with the PCC and Thacker gone, there have been a couple of sacrifices and so nothing more is needed. I don't agree. Like you I think pointing the finger at a couple of people is not enough when it is clear that there was a systemic issue which needs understanding and rooting out so that we try our very best to stop this happening again.
The last thing I want is for the authorities to turn a blind eye - as regular readers will know, I've got a personal reason (note, I was not abused) for wanting abusers to go to the lowest circle of the inferno.
In fact, we need to look at all the cases in totality to work out what is going on, rather than cherry-picking cases that fit our world view. What are the commonalities?
As an aside, in the case of Addenbrookes you will have 800 families who were written to by the hospital wondering whether their children were victims, alongside the 18 proved victims. Imagine how they must feel...0 -
Petition 1 now at 60,503 supporters.
So 40k -> 50lk took 2 hrs.
50k -> 60k took 5:30 to 9:00 = 3.5 hrs.
Reaching Peak Lemming. Reaching Peak Lemming.
https://www.change.org/p/alex-salmond-we-the-undersigned-demand-a-revote-of-the-scottish-referendum-counted-by-impartial-international-parties0 -
It's hard to follow the discussion when the quotes are trimmed, and thus it is hard to work out what you meant about my first paragraph and second paragraph. Ho hum. But if what I think you mean by the first paragraph is correct, then I have not demanded simple answers.HurstLlama said:@Josias Jessop
"I want people who did wrong in Rotherham and elsewhere to face justice. I also want to prevent further such abuses.
Simple answers will achieve neither aim."
Actually, Mr. J, what you say in your first paragraph is in fact a demand for simple answers. "Was Fred Smith guilty of an offence?" is a very simple question. "Care workers do not allow under age girls in your care to go out unaccompanied" is a very simple instruction (and one which might have saved a lot young people from harm).
You second paragraph is beyond me.
As for "Care workers do not allow under age girls in your care to go out unaccompanied" That is fair enough if you want care workers to be blamed. But what happens if, as appears from published interviews to have happened here, the social workers tried to prevent it happening, but got worn down by inaction from above and outside agencies? Does the Nazi (*) concentration camp guard excuse work here? Who is to blame? Is it just one person, all of them, or a combination of sins and depths of sin?
It is complex, and few on here seem interested in getting to the bottom of what happened in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford and elsewhere.
(*) for fear of Godwinning myself.0
