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The papers are in no doubt about the Tory winner – politicalbetting.com

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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    IshmaelZ said:

    There isn't one. The issue kitty is empty. Should women have votes: an issue. Can women have dicks? who gives a fuck, except in edge but real cases where they use them to rape women without dicks? Not an issue. See the difference?
    Yep. But who is talking endlessly about women with willies? It isn't the woke, its the anti-woke. It is quite literally a fringe issue that only exists as this Moral Panic amongst some.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    Maybe a shock result would be Badenoch going ahead of Truss today.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Finally, something weirder than the Tories electing a new leader.


    Relatively well-known copypasta. Got me the first time when I saw it in a FB group (a few months ago), but I then saw a near-identical post in a completely different group.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,568

    Finally, something weirder than the Tories electing a new leader.


    Son recognised this text, has been doing the rounds:

    https://youtube.com/shorts/Kd_AAStPWbY?feature=share
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,394

    I have posted quite a lot of substance on this subject recently. To which your level of engagement was "I don't think you're this dumb". I could say the same to you.
    You talked about the Beatles and votes for women. That was dumb.

    Same goes for the sheep like idiots who go liking your shitposts.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    Given the extremely short nature of the campaign surely it is a huge mistake to wait until now to even launch your campaign.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845

    The people who don't want to hear about things outside of their echo chamber are the "anti-Woke" here who want to ban a poster in Waterloo station about stopping sexist hate, who complain endlessly about corporations sticking a rainbow up for a month, who demand their statue of a slave trader must be respected and protected.
    You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing.

    You are viewing everything through a set of filters rather than looking at the broader picture.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,591

    I deliberately didn't include any mention of specific issues because it is not just a left/right thing. It is a damaging refusal to engage. There is so little room for discovery and conversation. And too much assertion.
    The debate about woke reminds me of the continental European powers in 1815 who, after thirty-odd years fighting viciously among themselves, suddenly noticed that Team GB had been busy colonising the southern hemisphere.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    I don't think Kemi is engaged on culture war - she needs to say it to get on board, but will she really bother with it?

    My point about them not knowing what to do with her is that her ascendency represents all of Labour's fail points in a single person. How can this black female migrant be talking about a vision for the future which embodies change when she is a hated Tory racist?
    “I’d like to congratulate the Prime Minister on a singular achievement. That she’s PM would be remarkable to anyone even 20 years ago. It is a singular moment I warmly welcome. Now, can she please explain how we’re all going to avoid freezing, starving, going broke or all three this winter?”

    It’s not especially hard.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845

    Given the extremely short nature of the campaign surely it is a huge mistake to wait until now to even launch your campaign.

    She wouldn't have survived round 1 if she had launched before
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867

    Trussticles has left it too late - why was she so slow out of the blocks?

    I don't think she really wants it. Seems very half-hearted and not terribly convincing.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Absolutely lovely day in London today. A perfect temperature and a nice breeze.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949

    Trussticles has left it too late - why was she so slow out of the blocks?

    Cos she was en route to Indonesia when it kicked off?
    It's difficult to remember it was a week and less than 3 hours ago that Boris said he was going.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    @DavidHerdson
    ·
    1m
    It is a striking measure of the churn and change in the Conservative Party that although there were 10 candidates in the 2019 leadership election, and there are 8 in the current one, only three years later, just one person contested both - and he went out in the first round.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    edited July 2022
    NB. It was suggested on here a few days ago that the Covid-19 hospital admissions were rolling over. Sadly that seems to have been a weekend blip - the rate is still climbing (although the rate of climb has dropped a tad - hopefully that’s a good sign).

    Every metric is currently getting worse: people on ventilators, people in hospital, infections recorded. None of them are overwhelming, but they are sucking capacity out of the system.

    Lets hope we’ve seen the peak now.

    (see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England for the gory details.)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Can any golf fans explain Rory Mcilroy's odds at every single major being so short even though he's not won one since 2014 ?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    What we are dealing with these days is at best a refusal to engage in rational argument and at worst a demand that anything you feel should be respected and protected and that you don't even want to hear about things outside of your echo chamber.

    This is very different to rock and roll or the suffrage movement.

    The concepts of no platforming, 'safe spaces', online bubbles have made debate impossible meaning that views are not only going unchallenged but met with an absolute refusal to engage with anything with which you disagree.

    Those are very unwelcome additions to our society alongside the denial of evidence and facts.
    We can set aside the nutters at either end of the spectrum who refuse to engage in rational argument. As we can the nutters on any issue you care to choose - they always exist.

    On a couple of the points you mention - safe spaces is an interesting one. 25 years ago at Sheffield University there was a massive row on this subject, specifically over the Union's "Women's Safety Bus". A group of students objected to the union spending money on transporting drunk female students home. "Where's my free ride home" etc. That there had been a spate of attacks on female students didn't seem to bother them - the bus was aptly named.

    As for online bubbles making debate impossible, that is a function of online. The nutters at either end of the spectrum we set aside? They're all online, they're mad as hell and the SHOUT AND SHOUT like they are the majority view. Short of abolishing social media, best we can do is ignore them and get on with our lives.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    I deliberately didn't include any mention of specific issues because it is not just a left/right thing. It is a damaging refusal to engage. There is so little room for discovery and conversation. And too much assertion.
    Well there is plenty of conversation on this topic on here!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,550
    Pulpstar said:

    Can any golf fans explain Rory Mcilroy's odds at every single major being so short even though he's not won one since 2014 ?

    Fools and their money......
  • Phil said:

    NB. It was suggested on here a few days ago that the Covid-19 hospital admissions were rolling over. Sadly that seems to have been a weekend blip - the rate is still climbing (although the rate of climb has dropped a tad - hopefully that’s a good sign).

    Every metric is currently getting worse: people on ventilators, people in hospital, infections recorded. None of them are overwhelming, but they are sucking capacity out of the system.

    Lets hope we’ve seen the peak now.

    (see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England for the gory details.)

    Does anyone much still care about this? Haven't we moved on already? Covid as a pandemic is history, now its just an endemic virus that will have people going in and out of hospital for the rest of time.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    OnboardG1 said:

    “I’d like to congratulate the Prime Minister on a singular achievement. That she’s PM would be remarkable to anyone even 20 years ago. It is a singular moment I warmly welcome. Now, can she please explain how we’re all going to avoid freezing, starving, going broke or all three this winter?”

    It’s not especially hard.
    Not 20 years ago - even 10 years ago it would have been hard to believe.

    But ignoring that she may have ideas but do their resonate with voters who aren't Tory party members and what can she deliver in 2 years that gives her votes in 2024.

    All I can see is a junior developer who has picked up a spec and run with it before sanity checking whether the suggested solution matches the actual real world problem.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,354
    dixiedean said:

    Cos she was en route to Indonesia when it kicked off?
    It's difficult to remember it was a week and less than 3 hours ago that Boris said he was going.
    Suggests that she, unlike say Rishi, didn’t have a slick, oven ready leadership campaign ready to kick off at a moment’s notice. Sort of to Truss’s credit I suppose.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,859
    @benrileysmith
    NEW: Lord Frost understood to be privately urging Suella + Kemi to drop out and back Liz Truss.

    A friend of Lord Frost: “While Suella, Kemi and Liz are all extremely good candidates on the right of the party, he thinks Liz Truss’s evident determination to put Britain onto a new reforming free-market economic path gives her the edge. He thinks it’s time for all three to unite behind her and make sure the members get a candidate who can deliver real economic reform and change.”


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1547533183947784192
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    Who was claiming it was normal? Nobody. The weather is going to be unbearably, horribly hot. Nobody sane will deny that.

    What triggered this threadette was the typically hysterical Leon cherrypicking the worst chart possible and presenting it as a 'forecast' when it is no such thing.
    Sure, and they then overreacted by saying that such a temperature was impossible. I'm just trying to get a bit of balance, which unfortunately due involve stating the obvious.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,730

    Diversity and Inclusion as it is currently being enforced is not about creating a more open and welcoming environment for all.

    It is about counting characteristics and seeking to label everyone according to a checklist and to treat them accordingly.

    It has nothing to do with celebrating the diversity of each individual and what they can bring. And it is all about creating uniformity and enforced group think

    The Pride movement is fracturing because of this. I have sat in Pride meetings where the only thing in the D&I sphere the leadership is worried about is counting the number of black and brown faces in the room.

    It is deeply frustrating to see a movement that still matters get torn apart from within by thinking which has stopped celebrating diversity and just wants uniformity.
    Those are very broad claims. I know many people working in Diversity and Inclusion who are 100% focused on creating a more open and welcoming environment for all. Yes, there are others who are too concerned with labelling and checklists. Any enterprise will contain those with better and worse approaches.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    @benrileysmith
    NEW: Lord Frost understood to be privately urging Suella + Kemi to drop out and back Liz Truss.

    A friend of Lord Frost: “While Suella, Kemi and Liz are all extremely good candidates on the right of the party, he thinks Liz Truss’s evident determination to put Britain onto a new reforming free-market economic path gives her the edge. He thinks it’s time for all three to unite behind her and make sure the members get a candidate who can deliver real economic reform and change.”


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1547533183947784192

    Right idea - wrong person being asked to drop out....

    And it's too late now for this round anyway Suella will be out at 3pm.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,163
    A good range of local by-elections today. Con defences in Breckland and Warwickshire, Lab defences in Coventry, Hyndburn, North Tyneside, Wandsworth, and Wirral, and a LD defence in South Somerset. To complete the picture there should have been a contest in Rutland but the Lib Dem was returned unopposed ( and it was a gain from Con).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163

    Onshore breezes every day in this weather, I'd have thought.

    Of course IANAE - shall we ask @Leon?

    Edit: Met office says the weather is a bit drab in St Andrews for the next four days so onshore breezes not so likely. Generally light winds.
    Onshore breezes are relatively steady and predictable. They won't produce the blustery conditions that are harder to compensate for.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Yep. But who is talking endlessly about women with willies? It isn't the woke, its the anti-woke. It is quite literally a fringe issue that only exists as this Moral Panic amongst some.
    Not the case.

    Do you want to tell the actual birth women who have actually been raped on single sex wards that they are fringe issues and symptoms of moral panic? And do you want to claim that the rapes occurred because of people who claim that there are women with penises, or people who deny this (or say OK there might be, but we need special rules about what wards they get put on)?
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    eek said:

    Not 20 years ago - even 10 years ago it would have been hard to believe.

    But ignoring that she may have ideas but do their resonate with voters who aren't Tory party members and what can she deliver in 2 years that gives her votes in 2024.

    All I can see is a junior developer who has picked up a spec and run with it before sanity checking whether the suggested solution matches the actual real world problem.
    Was that a reference to her Software Engineering background or a professional reference?

    I approve either way, having seen some… interesting electronics specs in my time.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741

    Suggests that she, unlike say Rishi, didn’t have a slick, oven ready leadership campaign ready to kick off at a moment’s notice. Sort of to Truss’s credit I suppose.
    It was obvious that there was going to be a leadership election some time in the next 12 months. So there was plenty of time to at least start planning things.

    I would make the lack of planning a campaign a large negative not a credit..
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Does anyone much still care about this? Haven't we moved on already? Covid as a pandemic is history, now its just an endemic virus that will have people going in and out of hospital for the rest of time.
    Not endemic. Still pandemic. Very much so.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,394

    Diversity and Inclusion as it is currently being enforced is not about creating a more open and welcoming environment for all.

    It is about counting characteristics and seeking to label everyone according to a checklist and to treat them accordingly.

    It has nothing to do with celebrating the diversity of each individual and what they can bring. And it is all about creating uniformity and enforced group think

    The Pride movement is fracturing because of this. I have sat in Pride meetings where the only thing in the D&I sphere the leadership is worried about is counting the number of black and brown faces in the room.

    It is deeply frustrating to see a movement that still matters get torn apart from within by thinking which has stopped celebrating diversity and just wants uniformity.
    Exactly. Pronoun badges were handed out at my clients Pride event last week and they had massive rainbow/trans flags on all the tables.

    I didn't go.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    We can set aside the nutters at either end of the spectrum who refuse to engage in rational argument. As we can the nutters on any issue you care to choose - they always exist.

    On a couple of the points you mention - safe spaces is an interesting one. 25 years ago at Sheffield University there was a massive row on this subject, specifically over the Union's "Women's Safety Bus". A group of students objected to the union spending money on transporting drunk female students home. "Where's my free ride home" etc. That there had been a spate of attacks on female students didn't seem to bother them - the bus was aptly named.

    As for online bubbles making debate impossible, that is a function of online. The nutters at either end of the spectrum we set aside? They're all online, they're mad as hell and the SHOUT AND SHOUT like they are the majority view. Short of abolishing social media, best we can do is ignore them and get on with our lives.
    That's not what "safe spaces" mean, in woke terms. It's emotional rather than physical safety - it means a place where people can be assured of not hearing anything that might upset them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    St Andrews really is just too easy for the modern pros now. 3 woods off the tee to drive a par 4 by even those who aren't in the worlds best.

    Golf really needs to do what F1 does, and periodically restrict the equipment to make the courses a fair test.

    When the modern driver is good for almost 400 yards, they either need to build bigger courses or make the drivers go only 300 yards.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the real challenge is being missed. Most PBers are in fact fairly old fashioned liberals in the sense of believing in freedom as widely as possible, with the major proviso being that, so to speak, your freedom to punch ends where my nose begins. I have no freedom to do harm or interfere with the freedom of others.

    Some old fashioned liberals (I am one) fear that what is occurring is a power play. Artificial extensions are rapidly being built to the concept of what constitutes 'harm'. This explains the bogus 'snowflake' phenomenon, whereby certain expressions of free speech come under threat, not because it will hurt my nose but because I can't cope with the trauma of having to be in the same room/country/planet as that thought.

    This is also the danger of 'protected characteristics'. This is mostly about who gets to order whom around.

    And yet the laws taking away rights of free speech and protest are coming from the most fervent anti-woke right.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949

    Suggests that she, unlike say Rishi, didn’t have a slick, oven ready leadership campaign ready to kick off at a moment’s notice. Sort of to Truss’s credit I suppose.
    Yeah.
    Of all the six she's the one I get the impression actually may lack some self belief.
    She's poor because deep down I reckon she knows she isn't up to it.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    Phil said:

    NB. It was suggested on here a few days ago that the Covid-19 hospital admissions were rolling over. Sadly that seems to have been a weekend blip - the rate is still climbing (although the rate of climb has dropped a tad - hopefully that’s a good sign).

    Every metric is currently getting worse: people on ventilators, people in hospital, infections recorded. None of them are overwhelming, but they are sucking capacity out of the system.

    Lets hope we’ve seen the peak now.

    (see https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare?areaType=nation&areaName=England for the gory details.)

    They are slowing considerably. A 30-40% week-on-week increase has dropped through the 20%s to 5% as of the latest two days of data.

    It's looking very much as though we've peaked as of the last week in infections and can expect hospitalisations to fall going forwards (put it this way - I'll be very disappointed if we don't see lower admissions compared to the previous weekday by the end of the week).

    This isn't to say it's all okay. Not by a long shot - more and more areas have declared ambulance emergencies. But we're going to have to find a way of living with that. It's one reason I'm very interested to hear what the candidates have to say about the health system versus endemic covid (so far, I'm hearing crickets).
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,309
    eek said:

    Right idea - wrong person being asked to drop out....

    And it's too late now for this round anyway Suella will be out at 3pm.
    It shows Truss’ weakness that Frost is begging others to drop out and support her.

    All the momentum is with Kemi.

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,730
    algarkirk said:

    It seems to me that the real challenge is being missed. Most PBers are in fact fairly old fashioned liberals in the sense of believing in freedom as widely as possible, with the major proviso being that, so to speak, your freedom to punch ends where my nose begins. I have no freedom to do harm or interfere with the freedom of others.

    Some old fashioned liberals (I am one) fear that what is occurring is a power play. Artificial extensions are rapidly being built to the concept of what constitutes 'harm'. This explains the bogus 'snowflake' phenomenon, whereby certain expressions of free speech come under threat, not because it will hurt my nose but because I can't cope with the trauma of having to be in the same room/country/planet as that thought.

    This is also the danger of 'protected characteristics'. This is mostly about who gets to order whom around.

    In the last few days, the only example of free speech being threatened was a demand that a company not run an advert talking about stopping sexist hate.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,741
    edited July 2022
    OnboardG1 said:

    Was that a reference to her Software Engineering background or a professional reference?

    I approve either way, having seen some… interesting electronics specs in my time.
    Reference to her Software Engineering background - shall we just say her career trajectory is similar to some other people I have worked with (where their career is similar due to a) their ability to tick urgent company diversity requirements, b) a general desire to remove (anywhere else) a not particularly great worker)

    Now that might be a dis-service and she was rapidly promoted based on talent but....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,688
    Why does she need all these exemptions? What criminality is she hiding? We deserve to know.

    Personalised exemptions for the Queen in her private capacity have been written into more than 160 laws since 1967, granting her sweeping immunity from swathes of British law – ranging from animal welfare to workers’ rights. Dozens extend further immunity to her private property portfolio, granting her unique protections as the owner of large landed estates.

    More than 30 different laws stipulate that police are barred from entering the private Balmoral and Sandringham estates without the Queen’s permission to investigate suspected crimes, including wildlife offences and environmental pollution – a legal immunity accorded to no other private landowner in the country.

    Police are also required to obtain her personal agreement before they can investigate suspected offences at her privately owned salmon and trout fishing business on the River Dee at Balmoral, where anglers are charged up to £630 a day to fish.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/14/queen-immunity-british-laws-private-property?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • novanova Posts: 755
    edited July 2022

    Wading into the woke debate (probably somewhat unwisely).

    As a nation we have become much more socially liberal in the past 20 years, the pace of change has been breathtaking as it has been in many societies in Western Europe. I support the progress that has been made.

    We have gotten to where we are through measured rational debate and respect for individuals.

    The concern I have now is that there is a somewhat troubling tendency to shut down debate. You do not drive progress (or certainly not for very long) by stifling debate. You engage and you bring people with you. At the moment I fear there is a tendency that in order to protect, sustain and advance social progress and liberalism in this country we have to deplatform, shame, ‘cancel’, ruin or embarrass people who hold differing points of view. This is helping contribute to the backlash that sustains the culture war.

    Just my two cents. I’m now going to run to my bunker and hide.

    I wonder whether it's the influence of social media.

    Change has always started with groups pushing at the boundaries, and over time, some of those boundaries become mainstream thinking, while others remain on the fringe, or are rejected. The friction would be partly contained, and the stronger ideas would trickle into the mainstream gradually.

    With social media speeding up the way opinions are shared and amplifying the voices of those who are shouting loudest, these arguments are entering the mainstream a little too quickly, and often at the stage where they're still contentious.

    Positive change may happen more quickly, which is a good thing (I don't think anyone can look back and say that the change in attitudes to homosexuality over the last few decades has been anything but positive, and would have been better if it had happened more quickly), but there's also going to be a hell of a lot more anger as issues are worked out in a much more public space.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    It shows Truss’ weakness that Frost is begging others to drop out and support her.

    All the momentum is with Kemi.

    I think they’ll shoot each other in the head by accident and you’ll end up with Mordaunt vs Sunak.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949
    slade said:

    A good range of local by-elections today. Con defences in Breckland and Warwickshire, Lab defences in Coventry, Hyndburn, North Tyneside, Wandsworth, and Wirral, and a LD defence in South Somerset. To complete the picture there should have been a contest in Rutland but the Lib Dem was returned unopposed ( and it was a gain from Con).

    The Conservatives couldn't find a candidate for a seat they hold on a Council they control?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302

    It shows Truss’ weakness that Frost is begging others to drop out and support her.

    All the momentum is with Kemi.

    Can anyone who knows more about Tory politics than me rank the remaining six Left to Right? (Or should that be soft-right to hard-right?)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    slade said:

    A good range of local by-elections today. Con defences in Breckland and Warwickshire, Lab defences in Coventry, Hyndburn, North Tyneside, Wandsworth, and Wirral, and a LD defence in South Somerset. To complete the picture there should have been a contest in Rutland but the Lib Dem was returned unopposed ( and it was a gain from Con).

    Binley is the sort of seat the Conservatives could have won if Boris hadn't fucked things up so badly but it'll be a comfortable Labour hold and will stay that way for a while.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Fishing said:

    I thought so too.

    I am happy to wear a Ukrainian flag badge though because a Ukrainian friend of mine tells me that he and people in his country really appreciate it. They are and isolated and embattled nation terrified that the free world will lose interest and wearing a Ukrainian flag shows that one person at least does not do so or has not done so yet anyway.
    The Ukranians really do notice this, whether it’s flags at sporting and cultural events, or pin badges on politicians in Parliament. It lets them know that we haven’t forgotten about them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    Diversity and Inclusion as it is currently being enforced is not about creating a more open and welcoming environment for all.

    It is about counting characteristics and seeking to label everyone according to a checklist and to treat them accordingly.

    It has nothing to do with celebrating the diversity of each individual and what they can bring. And it is all about creating uniformity and enforced group think

    The Pride movement is fracturing because of this. I have sat in Pride meetings where the only thing in the D&I sphere the leadership is worried about is counting the number of black and brown faces in the room.

    It is deeply frustrating to see a movement that still matters get torn apart from within by thinking which has stopped celebrating diversity and just wants uniformity.
    Sure - that goes on. Its organisations knowing how shit their behaviours and attitudes have been trying to catch up with the modernising society. So they tick boxes. Its hardly like your Pride example is new - as a bisexual I was not made to feel remotely welcome by LGBsoc at uni. What, you like women as well? Bloody tourist. So I put it back into a lockbox and supressed it for 20 years.

    But what is your objection? That companies are making a bit of a mess of changing their attitudes? Or that they are changing their attitudes at all? We need to be promoting diversity because in far too many places its mysteriously always middle-class white men who make progress. Is that because white men are the best candidates for these jobs? Or because a narrow selectorate hire people who look and talk like themselves?

    My own industry has had massive problems with this. "What happened to hiring dolly birds" I was asked in my first sales job when I was on a trade show stand. A pronounced lack of female senior managers, or anyone at all in sales, yet category management is full of women many of whom tried and failed to get hired to do sales.

    I've always managed to apply the "I don't care" rule to my hiring. Yes I have absolutely hired white men when they have been the best candidate. But I hired a lot of women where their brilliance was clear but they would get ignored. Cue digs that I saw myself as Hugh Heffner (surrounding myself with brilliant women).

    So maybe what people are so wound up about is the reverse of what they think it is. Easy for middle class white men to describe an environment of predominantly middle class white men as an "open and welcoming environment". Less so if you are effectively excluded from that because of class, gender, race etc etc etc
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,222
    Pulpstar said:

    Can any golf fans explain Rory Mcilroy's odds at every single major being so short even though he's not won one since 2014 ?

    Punter not a golf fan but Rory often looks as if he is about to win before collapsing on the last day.

    The Racing Post's top golf man, Steve Palmer, has tipped Rory.
    https://www.racingpost.com/sport/the-open/steve-palmers-open-championship-predictions-best-bets-free-golf-betting-tips/567586
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    eek said:

    Reference to her Software Engineering background - shall we just say her career trajectory is similar to some other people I have worked with (where their career is similar due to a) their ability to tick urgent company diversity requirements, b) a general desire to remove (anywhere else) a not particularly great worker)

    Now that might be a dis-service and she was rapidly promoted based on talent but....
    There’s also the classic issue in many companies that techies need to move to management to progress their career, so ambitious ones go for the management team jugular early. Then the tech team gets to try to pick up their codebase.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    My problem with woke is that nothing has changed.

    One of the organisations I belong to supplies us with a super-abundance of woke tweets and emails every day, and there are a super-abundance of committees & administrators busy examining equality & diversity & inclusion.

    We have a 100 per cent white committee of the most highly privileged in the institution reading Eddo-Lodge.

    However, nothing has actually changed, e.g., if you are a woman doing a pretty menial job at the bottom, you are still pretty much ignored despite all the tweets to the contrary.

    Wokery has become the Glass Bead Game.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    You talked about the Beatles and votes for women. That was dumb.

    Same goes for the sheep like idiots who go liking your shitposts.
    Shitposts is a matter of perspective.

    I am describing societal change and the fear this creates in people like your good self. That you don't like this isn't really a surprise is it?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,302
    eek said:

    Reference to her Software Engineering background - shall we just say her career trajectory is similar to some other people I have worked with (where their career is similar due to a) their ability to tick urgent company diversity requirements, b) a general desire to remove (anywhere else) a not particularly great worker)

    Now that might be a dis-service and she was rapidly promoted based on talent but....
    She appears to be rather more of an achiever than Sunak or Mordaunt tbf.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367

    Fools and their money......
    The amount of time BBC radio spends talking about Rory is completely out of proportion to his record. Ever major it's "can Rory win it?" The answer 30 odd times in a row has been "no". Better golfers get far less said about them.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949
    Sandpit said:

    Golf really needs to do what F1 does, and periodically restrict the equipment to make the courses a fair test.

    When the modern driver is good for almost 400 yards, they either need to build bigger courses or make the drivers go only 300 yards.
    The problem with that is this. Golf equipment company's customers want to be able to hit it as far as possible.
    That's how they make their money.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,309
    edited July 2022

    Can anyone who knows more about Tory politics than me rank the remaining six Left to Right? (Or should that be soft-right to hard-right?)
    I’d probably say (from left to right):

    1. Tom
    2. Rishi
    3. Penny
    4. Liz
    5. Kemi
    6. Suella

    But Rishi/Penny probably interchangeable.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    She appears to be rather more of an achiever than Sunak or Mordaunt tbf.
    That’s not amazingly hard. Most of the scientists in my office are higher achievers than any of them. Compared to my boss they’re intellectually embarrassing minnows. Compared to my old boss they’re not even on the same plane of existence.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    Can anyone who knows more about Tory politics than me rank the remaining six Left to Right? (Or should that be soft-right to hard-right?)
    As far as I can see (L-R) it is Tugendhat, Mordaunt, Sunak, Truss, Badenoch, Braverman.
    Mordaunt is the one I find hardest to position in the spectrum, which perhaps explains her success.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    On PM4PM:

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    6m
    Lacks calibre; makes grave errors; over-reaches; lacks depth. Maybe if she got her head down & achieved something she might be an option in a decade's time, but for now I don't get why anyone rates her. Good hair isn't enough for a PM.

    https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/1547538092923523072
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    OnboardG1 said:

    “I’d like to congratulate the Prime Minister on a singular achievement. That she’s PM would be remarkable to anyone even 20 years ago. It is a singular moment I warmly welcome. Now, can she please explain how we’re all going to avoid freezing, starving, going broke or all three this winter?”

    It’s not especially hard.
    It is. Far too many of my long-standing former comrades think they are literally the only thing holding back the forces of evil. Yet another female Tory PM would be challenging enough, but a BAME one? Isn't she supposed to be on their side? After all they have to Fight the Tories for her rights to do things like become Tory Prime Minister.

    There is a horrible hectoring tone about many of the left on this subject. Badenoch as PM would put the shits up them so hard they will barely be able to mention cost of living problems because they're so busy fighting their own culture war.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,986

    @benrileysmith
    NEW: Lord Frost understood to be privately urging Suella + Kemi to drop out and back Liz Truss.

    A friend of Lord Frost: “While Suella, Kemi and Liz are all extremely good candidates on the right of the party, he thinks Liz Truss’s evident determination to put Britain onto a new reforming free-market economic path gives her the edge. He thinks it’s time for all three to unite behind her and make sure the members get a candidate who can deliver real economic reform and change.”


    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1547533183947784192

    Frosty seems to be yearning for the ghost of Boris Past. He needs to let go. His and Boris's disastrous reign is over. With luck we will never see its like again.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,730

    I don't think Kemi is engaged on culture war - she needs to say it to get on board, but will she really bother with it?

    My point about them not knowing what to do with her is that her ascendency represents all of Labour's fail points in a single person. How can this black female migrant be talking about a vision for the future which embodies change when she is a hated Tory racist?
    You confuse some left-wingers on Twitter with the Labour Party. Starmer and the Labour Party don't go on about all Tories being racist. They have led with the failings of Johnson and his government, they will continue to lead on the cost of living, on NHS waiting lists, etc. Labour's big successes recently were hitting the Tories on Partygate (leading, in part, to toppling the PM) and a windfall tax (leading to a massive Govt U-turn). None of that strategy changes if the Tories pick Badenoch or a straight white man.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,163
    nova said:

    I wonder whether it's the influence of social media.

    Change has always started with groups pushing at the boundaries, and over time, some of those boundaries become mainstream thinking, while others remain on the fringe, or are rejected. The friction would be partly contained, and the stronger ideas would trickle into the mainstream gradually.

    With social media speeding up the way opinions are shared and amplifying the voices of those who are shouting loudest, these arguments are entering the mainstream a little too quickly, and often at the stage where they're still contentious.

    Positive change may happen more quickly, which is a good thing (I don't think anyone can look back and say that the change in attitudes to homosexuality over the last few decades has been anything but positive, and would have been better if it had happened more quickly), but there's also going to be a hell of a lot more anger as issues are worked out in a much more public space.
    There's also potential for mistakes to be made if ideas aren't tested.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    edited July 2022

    Well its a major so supposed to be the ultimate test not a regular tour event.

    Yes Johnson murdered it once, but they then make it more difficult (as they did when Tiger did) and the drop off to the others is huge....because the test is so severe. Most Masters only the top 15 or so finish under par at all, separating the best from the rest.

    Here we are just seeing well past their prime golfers casually driving multiple par 4s in 1. With no wind, there is no challenge from distance required, width of fairways, need to control / shape the ball or tough greens.
    I really don't mind driveable par 4s. They create good risk/reward choices that do separate the great from the good. The tests this week are course management, avoiding the bunkers, playing off sloping lies, chipping, imaginative irons.

    Lots of major courses are now par 71 or par 70, which makes them look as if they are tougher to score on as makes par for the tournament 4 or 8 shots less, often by making a 510 yd hole a par 4. In terms of numbers of shots to win even if this week ends up at 20 under that is 268. 10 USPGAs alone have been won in fewer shots. The US Open is the tough, brutal major but they should not all be like that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570

    As far as I can see (L-R) it is Tugendhat, Mordaunt, Sunak, Truss, Badenoch, Braverman.
    Mordaunt is the one I find hardest to position in the spectrum, which perhaps explains her success.
    Mordaunt will win this and then there will be terrible buyer's remorse.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    glw said:

    The amount of time BBC radio spends talking about Rory is completely out of proportion to his record. Ever major it's "can Rory win it?" The answer 30 odd times in a row has been "no". Better golfers get far less said about them.
    Who are these better golfers?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    There is no way that the ERG will accept Sunak's leadership if he does win. It will be permanent civil war inside the PCP - unless he does what Johnson did and throws out the critics. That would probably be best for the Tories - and certainly for the country - in the long term, but it would almost certainly also mean a surge in support for Reform/UKIP and so a guaranteed election defeat.

    Yes, the briefing against him has been pretty strong, they would play nice.

    As for the members, it becomes self fulfilling- they will be hearing he has bo chance with members and even those who like him will begin to doubt.

    Hes toast.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    They can rage against the woke all they like - it’s a battle they cannot win
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607
    edited July 2022

    Does anyone much still care about this? Haven't we moved on already? Covid as a pandemic is history, now its just an endemic virus that will have people going in and out of hospital for the rest of time.
    I think we could be working harder to constrain spread, in order to reduce the load on both the economy as a whole as well as the NHS. Meanwhile the government appears to have completely given up on doing anything at all.

    Ventilation & filtration appear to be very effective at stopping spread in crowded places & have the obvious side benefit of also reducing the spread of other diseases. Normalising masks for anyone that has symptoms would be sensible too. It seems like an open goal to me to work on these things. The Japanese seem to be managing it, why can’t we?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    Endillion said:

    That's not what "safe spaces" mean, in woke terms. It's emotional rather than physical safety - it means a place where people can be assured of not hearing anything that might upset them.
    I think you have just deftly demonstrated the difference between "woke" and reality. Women's refuges are not a hypothetical thing that exists only to protect their right to be feminists. Its to stop their violent menfolk beating and raping the shit out of them. Again.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814

    Mordaunt will win this and then there will be terrible buyer's remorse.
    But… she probably has enough to get over the line and form a govt after the next election. Before then being replaced. Who will be the next politician to remain in office over two election cycles I wonder? Will we see their like again?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    Mordaunt will win this and then there will be terrible buyer's remorse.
    Yeah that is my assumption. Sunak is their best candidate (as is clear from the polling vs Labour) but is suffering from being a known quality. Tories are projecting ideal qualities onto blank slates like Mordaunt and Badenoch, but it is highly likely that they turn out to be far weaker than Sunak. I mean, Mordaunt may turn out to be brilliant but on a balance of probabilities I would say she won't.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,394

    Shitposts is a matter of perspective.

    I am describing societal change and the fear this creates in people like your good self. That you don't like this isn't really a surprise is it?
    I have no fears about everyone in our society being included and given a fair shot.

    Again, all you have are insinuations, innuendos, and tropes.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949

    I’d probably say (from left to right):

    1. Tom
    2. Rishi
    3. Penny
    4. Liz
    5. Kemi
    6. Suella

    But Rishi/Penny probably interchangeable.
    Remarkable to see Sunak second from the left.
    Shows how the Tory Party has moved in the past seven years.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Shitposts is a matter of perspective.

    I am describing societal change and the fear this creates in people like your good self. That you don't like this isn't really a surprise is it?
    No you aren't, mate. Diminishing returns. Societal change is you can go to prison for b*ggering another bloke - then you can't - then you can marry him. Changes in the law. There has never been a law against a person with a dick asking people to call him her, and nobody actually gives or has ever given a fuck. It's as interesting and important as someone telling you they are vegan. Hence the militants pushing it to the edge cases, at the expense of every single birth/biological woman ever born, in order to provoke a reaction.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,394

    My issue is with the nature of the diversity which they are seeking to impose.

    It has nothing to do about removing barriers and improving the culture and everything to do with stripping people of their individuality and treating them as part of an artificially constructed group.

    Learning to value each individual for the qualities they possess and the potential they have is true inclusion. Only viewing them through the lens of intersectionality does not respect the individual just what others think they represent.
    This.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792
    eek said:

    Right idea - wrong person being asked to drop out....

    And it's too late now for this round anyway Suella will be out at 3pm.
    Apparently Frost says he would decline any offer to word in Mordaunt's cabinet. Another good reason to support Mordaunt.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,859

    It is. Far too many of my long-standing former comrades think they are literally the only thing holding back the forces of evil. Yet another female Tory PM would be challenging enough, but a BAME one? Isn't she supposed to be on their side? After all they have to Fight the Tories for her rights to do things like become Tory Prime Minister.

    There is a horrible hectoring tone about many of the left on this subject. Badenoch as PM would put the shits up them so hard they will barely be able to mention cost of living problems because they're so busy fighting their own culture war.
    To coin a phrase, it would "rub the left's nose in diversity".
  • Carnyx said:

    Not endemic. Still pandemic. Very much so.
    Its a constant presence now, that's endemic, isn't it?

    The time that Covid19 was exponentially spreading to naive communities as a pandemic has long since been and gone. Now its simply waxing and waning ever-present in society just as other endemic viruses do.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    The 'woke' movement is not a continuation of a tendency towards greater liberalism in the cultural and social sphere. It presents itself this way, and people support it for these reasons, but it is actually a profound rupture with this tradition and its roots in the enlightenment. It seeks to do away with facts, logic and argument, in favour of emotion and belief. It is a manifestation of the post truth worldview that began to appear around the time of the first scottish independence referendum, then again with Brexit and the election of Trump. As I have suggested before, in a lot of ways it is just a left wing reaction to the politics of Brexit, but has evolved to have a tribal, pseudo religious quality; claiming to resolve all injustice in society. It seems to me that the endgame of woke is the undoing of the enlightenment.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,394
    Andy_JS said:

    Maybe a shock result would be Badenoch going ahead of Truss today.

    I keep saying she's value but several on here can't get past Truss.
  • dixiedean said:

    Remarkable to see Sunak second from the left.
    Shows how the Tory Party has moved in the past seven years.
    Remarkable to see the Chancellor who increased Gordon Brown's favourite tax and lifted taxing and spending to record highs being listed second from the left?

    The only remarkable thing about it is that there's another Tory listed to the left of the poundshop Gordon Brown.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    You confuse some left-wingers on Twitter with the Labour Party. Starmer and the Labour Party don't go on about all Tories being racist. They have led with the failings of Johnson and his government, they will continue to lead on the cost of living, on NHS waiting lists, etc. Labour's big successes recently were hitting the Tories on Partygate (leading, in part, to toppling the PM) and a windfall tax (leading to a massive Govt U-turn). None of that strategy changes if the Tories pick Badenoch or a straight white man.
    I could name half a dozen senior Labour people on Teesside who I paraphrased. Not sure all of them are even on Twitter.

    Of course Labour will go on cost of living - its the economic bomb that will cause riots this winter unless the government do something. My point was simply that as well as this it is much easier to make a loony Tory PM look like a dinosaur than it would be if they elect a symbol of modernity like Badenoch.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    The odious Braverman was interviewed about her plan for the UK to leave the ECHR .

    Apparently even JRM doesn’t think this is a good idea so that tells you how far right she is . Hopefully today sees the end of the truly vile Bravermans leadership ambitions.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited July 2022

    Its a constant presence now, that's endemic, isn't it?

    The time that Covid19 was exponentially spreading to naive communities as a pandemic has long since been and gone. Now its simply waxing and waning ever-present in society just as other endemic viruses do.
    No. Worldwide outbreaks of new variants, all still spreading. It's not history as a pandemic.

    And most importantly the hospitals are still under pressure, as are public services, all part ofd the same pandemic that started. We're nowhere near a steady state.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,859
    nico679 said:

    The odious Braverman was interviewed about her plan for the UK to leave the ECHR .

    Apparently even JRM doesn’t think this is a good idea so that tells you how far right she is . Hopefully today sees the end of the truly vile Bravermans leadership ambitions.

    That policy was promoted by Theresa May during the Cameron government.
  • Phil said:

    I think we could be working harder to constrain spread, in order to reduce the load on both the economy as a whole as well as the NHS. Meanwhile the government appears to have completely given up on doing anything at all.

    Ventilation & filtration appear to be very effective at stopping spread in crowded places & have the obvious side benefit of also reducing the spread of other diseases. Normalising masks for anyone that has symptoms would be sensible too. It seems like an open goal to me to work on these things. The Japanese seem to be managing it, why can’t we?
    “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.” ~ Dr Ian Malcolm

    You're right we could be working to constrain spread, but there's little reason why we should.
  • NickyBreakspearNickyBreakspear Posts: 785
    edited July 2022
    slade said:

    A good range of local by-elections today. Con defences in Breckland and Warwickshire, Lab defences in Coventry, Hyndburn, North Tyneside, Wandsworth, and Wirral, and a LD defence in South Somerset. To complete the picture there should have been a contest in Rutland but the Lib Dem was returned unopposed ( and it was a gain from Con).

    Commentary from Andrew Teale: https://medium.com/britainelects/previewing-the-eight-by-elections-of-14th-july-2022-9482029be8f1

    Camperdown, North Tyneside - Labour defence: C, G, L, LD, UKIP
    Overton, Hyndburn - Labour defence: C, L, I, RUK
    Liscard, Wirral - Labour defence: C, G, L, LD
    Arden, Warwickshire - Conservative defence: C, L, LD
    Binley and Willenhall, Coventry - Labour defence: C, L, Alliance for democracy and freedom, Coventry Citizens, TUSC
    Thetford Boudica, Breckland - Conservative defence:C, L
    Tooting Broadway, Wandsworth - Labour defence: C, G, L, LD
    Brympton, South Somerset - Lib Dem defence:C, G, L, LD, I
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,570
    nico679 said:

    The odious Braverman was interviewed about her plan for the UK to leave the ECHR .

    Apparently even JRM doesn’t think this is a good idea so that tells you how far right she is . Hopefully today sees the end of the truly vile Bravermans leadership ambitions.

    Probably. And then one of the others will make her Home Secretary when they win.

    Be interesting to see how Lab's polling does over the summer as the Tories spend all their comms bandwidth arguing amongst themselves about who said what on trans rights and who would cut what amount off business tax, whilst the focus groups are packed with voting folk screaming for action on the energy cost crisis looming (see last night's newsnight).

  • glwglw Posts: 10,367

    Who are these better golfers?
    People like Scheffller, Thomas, Koepka; I think Rory's ranking flatters him, his performance in majors has been quite poor given his talent.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,354

    Can anyone who knows more about Tory politics than me rank the remaining six Left to Right? (Or should that be soft-right to hard-right?)
    With perhaps a sub ranking of who's the most 'I'll be anything you want me to be'?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    IshmaelZ said:

    No you aren't, mate. Diminishing returns. Societal change is you can go to prison for b*ggering another bloke - then you can't - then you can marry him. Changes in the law. There has never been a law against a person with a dick asking people to call him her, and nobody actually gives or has ever given a fuck. It's as interesting and important as someone telling you they are vegan. Hence the militants pushing it to the edge cases, at the expense of every single birth/biological woman ever born, in order to provoke a reaction.
    So we need to marginalise and ostracise these militants. Freedom and Liberty can't be imposed over the rights of others. The row over the extremist end of the trans rights movement can't be used to simply scrap trans rights, nor to scrap women's safe places and their own rights.

    The problem is finding a balance. My dismissal of the "anti-woke" debate is that it isn't really interested in feminism, it just wants to use it to bash the trannies with.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,792

    Yeah that is my assumption. Sunak is their best candidate (as is clear from the polling vs Labour) but is suffering from being a known quality. Tories are projecting ideal qualities onto blank slates like Mordaunt and Badenoch, but it is highly likely that they turn out to be far weaker than Sunak. I mean, Mordaunt may turn out to be brilliant but on a balance of probabilities I would say she won't.
    It all depends on whom she brings in around her. Leadership is not about having all the answers; it is about providing the framework for others to do so. I have a good feeling about Penny Mordaunt on this.
  • Carnyx said:

    No. Worldwide outbreaks of new variants, all still spreading. It's not history as a pandemic.

    And most importantly the hospitals are still under pressure, as are public services, all part ofd the same pandemic that started. We're nowhere near a steady state.
    New variants will spread for the rest of time too. That's entirely normal with endemic viruses, they evolve into new variants, that's why we get a new flu vaccine every year instead of just reusing last year's one again.

    This is our steady state.

    We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem. ~ Douglas Adams
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,949
    darkage said:

    The 'woke' movement is not a continuation of a tendency towards greater liberalism in the cultural and social sphere. It presents itself this way, and people support it for these reasons, but it is actually a profound rupture with this tradition and its roots in the enlightenment. It seeks to do away with facts, logic and argument, in favour of emotion and belief. It is a manifestation of the post truth worldview that began to appear around the time of the first scottish independence referendum, then again with Brexit and the election of Trump. As I have suggested before, in a lot of ways it is just a left wing reaction to the politics of Brexit, but has evolved to have a tribal, pseudo religious quality; claiming to resolve all injustice in society. It seems to me that the endgame of woke is the undoing of the enlightenment.

    Not being flippant, but I thought it was undone by the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    I think you have just deftly demonstrated the difference between "woke" and reality. Women's refuges are not a hypothetical thing that exists only to protect their right to be feminists. Its to stop their violent menfolk beating and raping the shit out of them. Again.
    Actually what? When the left talks about "safe spaces", they do not mean - or at least do not primarily mean - women's refuges. You must know this.
This discussion has been closed.