Sunak just edging it at the moment in the betting – politicalbetting.com

DavidL said:

FrankBooth said:

From what I've seen Rishi does seem to have been quiet on Ukraine. Surprising really because it would have given him the chance to burnish his leadership credentials. And given the central bank asset freezing, sanctions, Chelsea sale it is not as if he wasn't involved in some way.

He might not want it brought up if he is fearing a Wallace exocet at some point (to mix my wars up slightly).

Nigelb said:

Just laughed out loud at this
@amolrajan @nadhimzahawi exchange:
Q: You trusted Boris Johnson enough to be his Chancellor, yet 24 hrs later you effectively called on him to quit. What does that say about your judgement?
A; 'I'll tell you what it says: I put country first."
https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1547111472307773440

RochdalePioneers said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Casino_Royale said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.

It does raise an interesting question though as to how come the Conservative Party, without all female/minority shortlists have been able to get so many women and minorities right to the very top of the party (and not just padding out the backbenches) . . . but how come the union leaders are all '[white] male and wealthy'.

Why are the unions so unrepresentative?

PS "they didn't".

Door after door after door after door. Talking to white voters in an almost entirely white British area being told there are too many foreigners. As I said - a "nasty insular whiter Britain". You can say that I didn't have those appalling conversations all you like. I did. And there is reams of evidence and reportage from the time backing that up.

Its just that people don't want to be associated with racism and their petty bigotry and jingoist friends. I can understand that. Its not so much that people are racist - reality is far more subtle than that. Its that they dislike the other. Whether that is Europeans or non-whites or people not born in Yorkshire or people who like ballet or whatever. I - like you - am a white man who voted to leave. I - like you did not do so for any of the reasons I just listed. We are not racist or bigoted or bitter. But all the people who are voted leave. That doesn't mean that all leavers are racist, just that all racists voted leave. Why is that hard to grasp?

Because it isn't true?

I know of Remain voters who voted Remain because they were comfortable with free movement of Europeans filling labour voids but not Commonwealth/whole world.

Your anecdote assumes it was bigotry that was meant rather than volume.

My anecdote says that all the bigots voted leave but not everyone who voted leave is a bigot. Its not that difficult to grasp. Unless you are so closed-minded as to think that what you think is what all right-minded people think because you are always right.

But your anecdote is bollocks.

My anecdote is my experience knocking endless doorsteps. What the good people of Thornaby and Ingleby Barwick told me when I spoke to them. Unless you were there having those conversations you cannot possibly know whether it is bollocks or not.

Essentially you are calling me a liar. If you think I am lying why not just say so clearly and distinctly?

I don't think you're lying, except maybe to yourself. You've self-radicalised since switching sides on the issue, which is the only reason you can write such obvious untruths as "all the bigots voted leave".

Many people, including some on this site, were making pro-Remain arguments at the time that Leave would mean increased immigration from outside Europe and that free movement was good since it only applied to Europeans. That was a racist argument, and yet you have claimed "all the bigots voted Leave".

Its bollocks. Its also as someone else said, "Jews don't count" bollocks too.

If you said that some people who voted Leave did so for racist reasons, then that would be true, as too did some who voted Remain. But to say "all" Leave voters were racist, or "all" racists voted Leave is complete hogwash.

Its very very simple. Even for someone who takes as ludicrously as entrenched a position as you.

I spoke to literally hundreds of people during that campaign. Who sang the same jingoistic tune. It is lived experience. For you to call this "bollocks" is to say that I am lying. Making it up, or now "lying to myself".

I was there having those conversations. You was not. So you have no clue what happened, yet can arrogantly tell me what really happened (that these did not happen but I have imagined them having been "self-radicalised".)

Silly boy. You are so conceited you almost sound like HY.

BlancheLivermore said:

Roger said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is "All the racists voted Leave" a chapter in Jews Don't Count?

What does that mean? A looks like a complete non sequiteur

Sequitur

It means that lots of antisemites voted Remain

FrankBooth said:

On the economy: unfunded tax cuts are not sensible. But given we already have one of the lowest rates of corporation tax in the west I struggle to see why reducing it further will help close the average income gap with our neighbours. I would like to see a candidate serious about dealing with the prohibitive cost of housing, low median incomes and the poor level of productivity and investment.

turbotubbs said:

Selebian said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

Re the racism discussion FPT:

There are definitely large pockets of closet racism dotted around the country. Usually in very white areas where there is little contact with, or experience of, black or ethnic people.

Many of those with racist views know better than to express those views too openly, and I expect that adds to their feelings of threat and alienation.

It slips out from time to time though, like the woman whose house we went to look at to potentially buy who whispered to us that it was a nice area with 'no blacks or asians nearby'.

Sure, it's an anecdote but not an isolated one.

I should just add re racism and Leave, that I fully acknowledge that the majority of those who voted leave, and certainly those on here, are not racist.

I think racism is universal, there are just varying levels of self-awareness of it. We are probably just wired to make judgements about people based on physical characteristics and it is unlikely that we can actually be rewired to work a different way. We can try.

(edited)
I think that if a multi racial society is to actually succeed, there needs to be a bit more realism about our human flaws. You also need to tackle racism not just by white people, but between other racial groups. There is not much sign of this type of thinking taking place on the left, it will probably have to come from the political right.

I don't think racism is universal, though I think xenophobia (in the classic meaning of the word) can be. Fear of the unknown is more universal and real than either racism or homosexuality etc which are both dated concepts that can and should be both tackled and allowed fade away.

Children that grow up in a mixed race environment, without racist parents or adult influences, won't "naturally" be racist, because the very concept would be alien to them. If all your life you've had white, brown and yellow skinned friends then the idea of racism should be as absurd as being "naturally" discriminatory against people who have yellow, brown or red hair.

I liked the parent post, because there's something in that - we all have prejudices*, whether it amounts ot racism depends on your definition for that.

Young children though, are largely free of that. They accept the world as it is. My son doesn't notice that some of his friends at playgroup are not white, it just doesn't register any more than them having a differnt hair colour. He doesn't register that it's in any way unusual that one of his uncles lives with another uncle, rather than an aunt. We learn these things through others, through the media and - of course - through family and friends, I guess.

*call them unconscious biases, maybe

We are children of our times. My dad is 83. He grew up during the Second World War. He is sometimes racist. I grew up 35 years later, but my medium size Wiltshire village had no one who wasn’t white, and frankly most of the people who lived their could trace their roots back to within 10 miles of the same village.
How different is that from living in a multicultural city and growing up with all races? It’s huge.
I don’t think most people are that nasty generally. In person most people are warm and friendly to almost anyone else. Something like Brexit and the mass immigration from Eastern Europe changing the characters of people’s towns (such as the town my dad grew up) cause tensions on a wider scale. It’s also easy for lies and simplistic arguments to be made.
‘You can’t see your go because of all the foreigners’
‘Foreigners get first dibs on council housing’
And so on.
Sometimes its even true.
For what it’s worth I think many more leave voters were a lot more sophisticated than @RochdalePioneers believes. There were lots of reasons to vote to leave. I detested the lack of proper democracy in the EU. The pointless two locations. For years not getting accounts signed off.
But I still voted remain, as broadly I thought it in the nations best interests. I still do.

DavidL said:

FrankBooth said:

On the economy: unfunded tax cuts are not sensible. But given we already have one of the lowest rates of corporation tax in the west I struggle to see why reducing it further will help close the average income gap with our neighbours. I would like to see a candidate serious about dealing with the prohibitive cost of housing, low median incomes and the poor level of productivity and investment.

The argument goes that a significant increase in CT is a pretty strange way to increase investment. I think that there is an answer to that if the increase in the rate is combined with incentives for investment and training (such as double reliefs).

The prohibitive cost of housing mainly arises from the absurdly low interest rates we have had for the last decade and may well suffer a correction over the next year (although affordability will not improve much, if at all).

Productivity is the key but it is hard, otherwise we would have sorted it long ago.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

CarlottaVance said:

Two new endorsements for Liz Truss - Mark Francois and Iain Duncan Smith.

Race for second nominee now looking tight between Truss and Mordaunt.

https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1547123925347454976

Clear now PM Truss would make PM Boris look like a wet liberal.

With PM Truss it would be full war on Woke, the hardest of Brexits, slashed tax and spend and a scrapping of net zero. Plus a Cabinet dominated by Rees Mogg, Dorries, Francois and IDS

You are for Tugendhat I believe.

Can you tell us how you rate them after that in descending order.

So

1. Tugendhat
2. ???

etc.

Thx

1 Tugendhat
2 Sunak
3 Hunt
4 Mordaunt
5 Badenoch
6 Truss
7 Braverman
8 Zahawi

DavidL said:

FrankBooth said:

On the economy: unfunded tax cuts are not sensible. But given we already have one of the lowest rates of corporation tax in the west I struggle to see why reducing it further will help close the average income gap with our neighbours. I would like to see a candidate serious about dealing with the prohibitive cost of housing, low median incomes and the poor level of productivity and investment.

The argument goes that a significant increase in CT is a pretty strange way to increase investment. I think that there is an answer to that if the increase in the rate is combined with incentives for investment and training (such as double reliefs).

The prohibitive cost of housing mainly arises from the absurdly low interest rates we have had for the last decade and may well suffer a correction over the next year (although affordability will not improve much, if at all).

Productivity is the key but it is hard, otherwise we would have sorted it long ago.

Sandpit said:

darkage said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

Re the racism discussion FPT:

There are definitely large pockets of closet racism dotted around the country. Usually in very white areas where there is little contact with, or experience of, black or ethnic people.

Many of those with racist views know better than to express those views too openly, and I expect that adds to their feelings of threat and alienation.

It slips out from time to time though, like the woman whose house we went to look at to potentially buy who whispered to us that it was a nice area with 'no blacks or asians nearby'.

Sure, it's an anecdote but not an isolated one.

I should just add re racism and Leave, that I fully acknowledge that the majority of those who voted leave, and certainly those on here, are not racist.

I think racism is universal, there are just varying levels of self-awareness of it. We are probably just wired to make judgements about people based on physical characteristics and it is unlikely that we can actually be rewired to work a different way. We can try.

(edited)
I think that if a multi racial society is to actually succeed, there needs to be a bit more realism about our human flaws. You also need to tackle racism not just by white people, but between other racial groups. There is not much sign of this type of thinking taking place on the left, it will probably have to come from the political right.

I don't think racism is universal, though I think xenophobia (in the classic meaning of the word) can be. Fear of the unknown is more universal and real than either racism or homosexuality etc which are both dated concepts that can and should be both tackled and allowed fade away.

Children that grow up in a mixed race environment, without racist parents or adult influences, won't "naturally" be racist, because the very concept would be alien to them. If all your life you've had white, brown and yellow skinned friends then the idea of racism should be as absurd as being "naturally" discriminatory against people who have yellow, brown or red hair.

But this is the problem with identity politics. It encourages people to continually 'deconstruct' multiracial societies to look for racism. There is no utopia at the end of it, just permanent conflict; which ultimately actually weakens the society when considered as a whole.

But provides great business and lots of jobs, for those stoking the division.

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Exclusive from @hzeffman

Penny Mordaunt launches her pitch for the Tory leadership with a promise to give every family a 'childcare budget' as a survey suggests she would beat every other contender

She wants to deliver 'greater choice' for families

eek said:

DavidL said:

FrankBooth said:

On the economy: unfunded tax cuts are not sensible. But given we already have one of the lowest rates of corporation tax in the west I struggle to see why reducing it further will help close the average income gap with our neighbours. I would like to see a candidate serious about dealing with the prohibitive cost of housing, low median incomes and the poor level of productivity and investment.

The argument goes that a significant increase in CT is a pretty strange way to increase investment. I think that there is an answer to that if the increase in the rate is combined with incentives for investment and training (such as double reliefs).

The prohibitive cost of housing mainly arises from the absurdly low interest rates we have had for the last decade and may well suffer a correction over the next year (although affordability will not improve much, if at all).

Productivity is the key but it is hard, otherwise we would have sorted it long ago.

Productivity requires a willingness to invest money in either training or equipment rather than throwing it at shareholders

So higher corporation tax with incentives to invest (capital allowances) alongside the existing apprenticeship levy are needed to give us any chance of getting firms to invest in their future rather than short term profit taking.

kjh said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Casino_Royale said:

RochdalePioneers said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

What is fascinating about this leadership election is the sheer spread of candidates and outlooks and positions.

At one extreme a vision of a fictional past led by Braverman. Break poor people on the wheel. Tax cuts for decent people. Put the gayers and the trannies and the haters back in their box where decent people can look down on them.

At the other extreme a vision of a dynamic future led by Badenoch. 2020s Britain as personified by a female black migrant with braided hair and a clear vision for how to respect people who who they are without having to harang or belittle like equivalent Labour people do.

What is extraordinary is that half the field are BAME, half are women and two are both. Sorry Labour Party, but if this doesn't explode your "we are the party of modern representative politics", nothing will.

It looks as if we will have the first ethnic PM or third woman PM ( all conservatives )

I think Labour's problem is the unions. When it comes to election planning it becomes a beauty contest - who can attract the most cash from their trade union. And too many unions are very white male and wealthy. Yes I know the Tories are heavily that as well, but they get outside funding. Labour candidates need cash and that cash comes from unions who advance their own people.

Its not as if the first BAME PM and/or third female PM will make a positive difference to the Tories if it is Zahawi or Braverman or Truss. Pick a mentalist, or better still continuity Boris and the party is doomed. But what opportunity there is within the selection process to actually have choice!

I still want the party removed from power, regardless of who wins. But a Badenoch government excites me - and I literally didn't know who she was until yesterday - because she would modernise the political discourse massively.

Brexit was - in a significant part - a vote to send the foreigners home, to remove the outsiders who had brought the country down. And here is Olukemi Olufunto Adegoke, who returned to her native UK from her ancestral Nigeria age 16 to escape the situation over there, did A-Levels whilst working in McDonalds, before going on to work in IT and Finance. Now Kemi Badenoch she represents everything that is the *opposite* of the nasty insular whiter Britain that so many voted for. And don't tell this leave voter that they didn't. They bloody did.

It does raise an interesting question though as to how come the Conservative Party, without all female/minority shortlists have been able to get so many women and minorities right to the very top of the party (and not just padding out the backbenches) . . . but how come the union leaders are all '[white] male and wealthy'.

Why are the unions so unrepresentative?

PS "they didn't".

Door after door after door after door. Talking to white voters in an almost entirely white British area being told there are too many foreigners. As I said - a "nasty insular whiter Britain". You can say that I didn't have those appalling conversations all you like. I did. And there is reams of evidence and reportage from the time backing that up.

Its just that people don't want to be associated with racism and their petty bigotry and jingoist friends. I can understand that. Its not so much that people are racist - reality is far more subtle than that. Its that they dislike the other. Whether that is Europeans or non-whites or people not born in Yorkshire or people who like ballet or whatever. I - like you - am a white man who voted to leave. I - like you did not do so for any of the reasons I just listed. We are not racist or bigoted or bitter. But all the people who are voted leave. That doesn't mean that all leavers are racist, just that all racists voted leave. Why is that hard to grasp?

Because it isn't true?

I know of Remain voters who voted Remain because they were comfortable with free movement of Europeans filling labour voids but not Commonwealth/whole world.

Your anecdote assumes it was bigotry that was meant rather than volume.

My anecdote says that all the bigots voted leave but not everyone who voted leave is a bigot. Its not that difficult to grasp. Unless you are so closed-minded as to think that what you think is what all right-minded people think because you are always right.

But your anecdote is bollocks.

Some people voted Leave because they wanted migrants from the rest of the world (like eg Asians) being treated the same as Europeans.

Many, many people voted Remain because they were comfortable with immigration coming from white Europe, and didn't want more immigration coming from the rest of the world instead.

The terrible idea that its OK if a German or an Italian comes over via the EU, but they don't want any more Pakistanis, so vote Remain, was more common than you accept.

People are complicated and there were both racists and anti-racists on both sides.

Whereas I don't disagree with anything you have said there Bart the bit about it is more complicated goes further:

Voters aren't rational. My Dad for instances fits into a category that I believe is not insignificant. He is right of Atilla the Hun and his main driver for voting leave was because there were too many blacks here. Trying to explain to him that leaving will cut down on white immigration from the EU and possibly greater immigration from countries where their skin is a darker colour was like banging your head against a brick wall.

It would be interesting to know what the level of racism is in the UK. It is clearly much much better than it used to be and I agree with @Casino_Royale (on the previous thread) re racisms (and I assume misogyny) in the Tory party is probably not an issue these days, but I would like to end on a 2nd anecdote. In the late 60s I worked in a factory during my school holidays. The guys on the shop floor were as racist as they came. But there were a group of Asians who worked there also and they were OK! It was only the Asians they didn't know who apparently lived 30 to house in dirty conditions. The ones they knew were all fine. Funny that. Similarly with Thatcher. To many men who admired her, she was one of us, while their own good lady's role was washing up and preparing meals. Irrational I know.

Many/most(?) voters are not like the people who post here.

algarkirk said:

So I plan to move away from a policy of fixed entitlements to tax-free childcare, and instead create a new system of personalised budgets that will allow every child to access their entitlement to subsidised childcare at a time most suited to their family needs.

Mordaunt's wheeze. Otherwise known as massively clunky additional bureaucratically incompetent nightmare on top of all the other governmental complexities besetting parents of small children who don't happen to be quite rich.

I keep thinking of the LD's 'skills wallet' for some reason, which sank without trace with nice Jo Swinson.

algarkirk said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Exclusive from @hzeffman

Penny Mordaunt launches her pitch for the Tory leadership with a promise to give every family a 'childcare budget' as a survey suggests she would beat every other contender

She wants to deliver 'greater choice' for families

It just makes you long for a candidate who will feed them on gruel, send their mothers to a workhouse, compel small children down the mines and up chimneys, render everything either compulsory or forbidden, abolish the welfare state and subsidise grouse shooting.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

darkage said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

Re the racism discussion FPT:

There are definitely large pockets of closet racism dotted around the country. Usually in very white areas where there is little contact with, or experience of, black or ethnic people.

Many of those with racist views know better than to express those views too openly, and I expect that adds to their feelings of threat and alienation.

It slips out from time to time though, like the woman whose house we went to look at to potentially buy who whispered to us that it was a nice area with 'no blacks or asians nearby'.

Sure, it's an anecdote but not an isolated one.

I should just add re racism and Leave, that I fully acknowledge that the majority of those who voted leave, and certainly those on here, are not racist.

I think racism is universal, there are just varying levels of self-awareness of it. We are probably just wired to make judgements about people based on physical characteristics and it is unlikely that we can actually be rewired to work a different way. We can try.

(edited)
I think that if a multi racial society is to actually succeed, there needs to be a bit more realism about our human flaws. You also need to tackle racism not just by white people, but between other racial groups. There is not much sign of this type of thinking taking place on the left, it will probably have to come from the political right.

I don't think racism is universal, though I think xenophobia (in the classic meaning of the word) can be. Fear of the unknown is more universal and real than either racism or homosexuality etc which are both dated concepts that can and should be both tackled and allowed fade away.

Children that grow up in a mixed race environment, without racist parents or adult influences, won't "naturally" be racist, because the very concept would be alien to them. If all your life you've had white, brown and yellow skinned friends then the idea of racism should be as absurd as being "naturally" discriminatory against people who have yellow, brown or red hair.

But this is the problem with identity politics. It encourages people to continually 'deconstruct' multiracial societies to look for racism. There is no utopia at the end of it, just permanent conflict; which ultimately actually weakens the society when considered as a whole.

Sadly a lot of people don't have to look too far to encounter racism. My wife is Asian so I am aware that society still has a long way to go, although of course it has changed a lot since the 70s/80s where getting called a p*** was almost expected.
If I was married to a white woman I am sure I would be more likely to think that racism existed in people's head and that people trying to address it were actually prolonging it. But based on what I see, through my wife's experiences, I simply don't think that is the case.
I would also note that the progress we have made as a society so far has come from people actively fighting against racism. So if we want that progress to continue, then I think the fight has to continue.

Pulpstar said:

Rishi's best strategy is to try and get as many votes for himself as possible (Hah !) in order to lock out Mordaunt. I think he'd rather face Truss in the run off.

RochdalePioneers said:

turbotubbs said:

Selebian said:

BartholomewRoberts said:

darkage said:

Benpointer said:

Re the racism discussion FPT:

There are definitely large pockets of closet racism dotted around the country. Usually in very white areas where there is little contact with, or experience of, black or ethnic people.

Many of those with racist views know better than to express those views too openly, and I expect that adds to their feelings of threat and alienation.

It slips out from time to time though, like the woman whose house we went to look at to potentially buy who whispered to us that it was a nice area with 'no blacks or asians nearby'.

Sure, it's an anecdote but not an isolated one.

I should just add re racism and Leave, that I fully acknowledge that the majority of those who voted leave, and certainly those on here, are not racist.

I think racism is universal, there are just varying levels of self-awareness of it. We are probably just wired to make judgements about people based on physical characteristics and it is unlikely that we can actually be rewired to work a different way. We can try.

(edited)
I think that if a multi racial society is to actually succeed, there needs to be a bit more realism about our human flaws. You also need to tackle racism not just by white people, but between other racial groups. There is not much sign of this type of thinking taking place on the left, it will probably have to come from the political right.

I don't think racism is universal, though I think xenophobia (in the classic meaning of the word) can be. Fear of the unknown is more universal and real than either racism or homosexuality etc which are both dated concepts that can and should be both tackled and allowed fade away.

Children that grow up in a mixed race environment, without racist parents or adult influences, won't "naturally" be racist, because the very concept would be alien to them. If all your life you've had white, brown and yellow skinned friends then the idea of racism should be as absurd as being "naturally" discriminatory against people who have yellow, brown or red hair.

I liked the parent post, because there's something in that - we all have prejudices*, whether it amounts ot racism depends on your definition for that.

Young children though, are largely free of that. They accept the world as it is. My son doesn't notice that some of his friends at playgroup are not white, it just doesn't register any more than them having a differnt hair colour. He doesn't register that it's in any way unusual that one of his uncles lives with another uncle, rather than an aunt. We learn these things through others, through the media and - of course - through family and friends, I guess.

*call them unconscious biases, maybe

We are children of our times. My dad is 83. He grew up during the Second World War. He is sometimes racist. I grew up 35 years later, but my medium size Wiltshire village had no one who wasn’t white, and frankly most of the people who lived their could trace their roots back to within 10 miles of the same village.
How different is that from living in a multicultural city and growing up with all races? It’s huge.
I don’t think most people are that nasty generally. In person most people are warm and friendly to almost anyone else. Something like Brexit and the mass immigration from Eastern Europe changing the characters of people’s towns (such as the town my dad grew up) cause tensions on a wider scale. It’s also easy for lies and simplistic arguments to be made.
‘You can’t see your go because of all the foreigners’
‘Foreigners get first dibs on council housing’
And so on.
Sometimes its even true.
For what it’s worth I think many more leave voters were a lot more sophisticated than @RochdalePioneers believes. There were lots of reasons to vote to leave. I detested the lack of proper democracy in the EU. The pointless two locations. For years not getting accounts signed off.
But I still voted remain, as broadly I thought it in the nations best interests. I still do.

You are talking about my supposed position imagined by BR and CR, not what I have actually posted. Even "racism" isn't remotely accurate for the millions who as you said had reasons to vote leave because people.

I can go all the way back to Gillian Duffy if you want. Note that Brown called her "bigoted" not "racist". She was, and Rochdale is full of people like her. And its not even a white issue - some of the worst bigotry was different BAME groups against each other.

There is always *someone* perceived to be doing better than you, being given the breaks, the assistance, "jumping the queue" etc etc. Really easy to box them off as the other if they don't look like you, talk like you, think like you.

As I keep saying, its not about racism and only racism - that's only a part of it.

BlancheLivermore said:

Does anyone know who introduced Penny?

Sounded like Nicola Murray!

Barnesian said:

Pulpstar said:

Rishi's best strategy is to try and get as many votes for himself as possible (Hah !) in order to lock out Mordaunt. I think he'd rather face Truss in the run off.

I don't think Sunak will be in the run off. If Hunt and Badenhoch supporters go to Mordaunt and Zahawi and Braverman's go to Truss it will be Mordaunt and Truss.

Barnesian said:

Pulpstar said:

Rishi's best strategy is to try and get as many votes for himself as possible (Hah !) in order to lock out Mordaunt. I think he'd rather face Truss in the run off.

I don't think Sunak will be in the run off. If Hunt and Badenhoch supporters go to Mordaunt and Zahawi and Braverman's go to Truss it will be Mordaunt and Truss.

Barnesian said:

Pulpstar said:

Rishi's best strategy is to try and get as many votes for himself as possible (Hah !) in order to lock out Mordaunt. I think he'd rather face Truss in the run off.

I don't think Sunak will be in the run off. If Hunt and Badenhoch supporters go to Mordaunt and Zahawi and Braverman's go to Truss it will be Mordaunt and Truss.

algarkirk said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Exclusive from @hzeffman

Penny Mordaunt launches her pitch for the Tory leadership with a promise to give every family a 'childcare budget' as a survey suggests she would beat every other contender

She wants to deliver 'greater choice' for families

It just makes you long for a candidate who will feed them on gruel, send their mothers to a workhouse, compel small children down the mines and up chimneys, render everything either compulsory or forbidden, abolish the welfare state and subsidise grouse shooting.

algarkirk said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Exclusive from @hzeffman

Penny Mordaunt launches her pitch for the Tory leadership with a promise to give every family a 'childcare budget' as a survey suggests she would beat every other contender

She wants to deliver 'greater choice' for families

It just makes you long for a candidate who will feed them on gruel, send their mothers to a workhouse, compel small children down the mines and up chimneys, render everything either compulsory or forbidden, abolish the welfare state and subsidise grouse shooting.

tlg86 said:

Barnesian said:

Pulpstar said:

Rishi's best strategy is to try and get as many votes for himself as possible (Hah !) in order to lock out Mordaunt. I think he'd rather face Truss in the run off.

I don't think Sunak will be in the run off. If Hunt and Badenhoch supporters go to Mordaunt and Zahawi and Braverman's go to Truss it will be Mordaunt and Truss.

You think only 212 Tory MPs will vote in the contest?

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt pledges to run surplus annual budgets, after saying debt will "fall as percentage of GDP over time".

Only two ways to do that - cut spending or spur serious levels of economic growth in very tough economic circumstances

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt pledges to run surplus annual budgets, after saying debt will "fall as percentage of GDP over time".

Only two ways to do that - cut spending or spur serious levels of economic growth in very tough economic circumstances

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt says she will give money to MPs directly to spend on worthy projects on their patch.

MPs will like that

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt says she will give money to MPs directly to spend on worthy projects on their patch.

MPs will like that

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Exclusive from @hzeffman

Penny Mordaunt launches her pitch for the Tory leadership with a promise to give every family a 'childcare budget' as a survey suggests she would beat every other contender

She wants to deliver 'greater choice' for families

BlancheLivermore said:

noneoftheabove said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Roger said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Roger said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Is "All the racists voted Leave" a chapter in Jews Don't Count?

What does that mean? A looks like a complete non sequiteur

Sequitur

It means that lots of antisemites voted Remain

Thanks. Changed it. Is that a joke or has that been said anywhere?

A number of people have said on this and the last thread that "all the racists voted leave"

Did all antisemites vote leave?

Or are antisemites not racists?

Corbyn probably voted leave!

Probably

But I don't think he's all of the antisemites

Selebian said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt says she will give money to MPs directly to spend on worthy projects on their patch.

MPs will like that

All MPs or only Con MPs?

If only we had some existing way for people to vote on local spending of government budgets. Groups of people elected to decide that, maybe. They could have meetings. We could call them councils

BlancheLivermore said:

I don't like Penny's "gonna" for "going to"

mwjfrome17 said:

If you are short of a platitude then Penny has plenty to offer

DavidL said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt says her "monetary policy will be about controlling inflation" - that will be news to Andrew Bailey, who probably thought that was his job

If only he did...

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Penny Mordaunt says she will give money to MPs directly to spend on worthy projects on their patch.

MPs will like that