politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As we wait for the final YouGov indyref poll Marf gives her
Comments
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I heard someone today predict that if its a Yes vote there will be protests, if its a No vote there will be riots. Over recent weeks, I have come to the conclusion that Salmond, Sturgeon&Co have no intention of trying to take the heat out of the divisions created in this debate, and that really worries me. Regardless of the result, they will indeed see the angry nationalism they have created amongst some Scots as job done.AndyJS said:
If the result is No I very much hope Salmond and Sturgeon ask their supporters to accept the democratic verdict magnanimously.fitalass said:Listening to Nicola Sturgeon's tonight in that speech, words just fail me. Today, a friends elderly father was verbally abused by two SNP supporters in the country of his birth, and last week another friend who has lived in Scotland for nearly thirty years was left shaken and upset after being subjected to a nasty verbal tirade just because of their accent. I hope that Salmond and Sturgeon are proud of the job they have done creating tension and division where they was previously none in many families or among friends Scotland.
And yes, I do blame them, just look at the way Salmond helped whip up the anger towards Nick Robinson and other journalists at the BBC over the last week for simply trying to do their jobs!0 -
Well forgive me for intruding upon a private matter. I was just curious what the damn question was because my religious education was lax and I didn't know the answer, I did not realise this constituted a non-sequiter, and then misread some tone of comment. One thousand apologies for such a faux pas.audreyanne said:
I had a nasty feeling you were going to respond with that. Read back the conversation. It began with MikeL lamenting the Archbishop asking questions about his face because of suffering. You jumped in with a non sequitur.kle4 said:
I didn't say I thought that quote was a question, i said it was the only quote I could recall from the cross.audreyanne said:
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.kle4 said:
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etcaudreyanne said:
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
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If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
Please no one comment upon my being sarcastic or unreasonable in this post you are the one specifically addressed, I don't want more non-sequiters.0 -
Surely Hoooose!saddened said:
HOUSE!!!compouter2 said:Who would have thought so many PB Hodges would be looking to Gord to save the Union....strange times.
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James declared UDI didn't he, when he refused to abide by the rules and rulings of the site - and very publicly and proudly said so? No-one moderating could have had any choice in the matter. He basically blocked himself.Stuart_Dickson said:
When you blocked James Kelly was a tipping point. Words cannot begin to describe the low esteem in which you are held.TheScreamingEagles said:
So when MalcolmG a few months ago, called No voters retards, and mentally ill was that also a tipping point?Stuart_Dickson said:
Tipping point.DavidL said:
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.Stuart_Dickson said:
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?DavidL said:
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.SouthamObserver said:I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.0 -
They aren'tGIN1138 said:I wonder whether BBC/ITV/SKY will do an "exit poll" for tomorrow night's programme?
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Brown's speech today made much of the lies the SNP have told about everything from the NHS to currency.Hugh said:
It's not about the SNP and their lies.DavidL said:
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.Hugh said:
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.DavidL said:
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.Stuart_Dickson said:
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?DavidL said:
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.SouthamObserver said:I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid enough to believe the SNP and their lies.
What the people of Scotland DO like is the central vision of the SNP. An independent Scotland.
I, and some others who have long been sent away from PB, have been pointing this out for a long time. That NO need to sell a similar vision. Only Gordon Brown, in the last week, has risen to the challenge.
PS. I'm not a Scottish nationalist.
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If it is NO we can defiantly file this one as QTWTAIN! :^O0
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Did not know that Geoffrey Boycott was going by that name now...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Bolger, entirely possible to feel English and British (and a Yorkshireman, if one is fortunate enough to have been born in God's Own County, the blessed land that gave the world Emperor Constantine the Great).
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This is weird, what is Kolpack? I'm sure the world gets barmier every day.Socrates said:
How on Earth is that racist?isam said:Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"
http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html
I blame the EU
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling
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Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.BlackDouglas said:I just came back from an rally. It was organised last minute and it was an invitation to all foreign nationals living in Edinburgh or visiting to participate and show support for a Yes vote. Thousands turned out. There were speakers from around the world including English speakers who were well received. After they finished speaking the crowd wanted more so they decided to march down the Royal Mile to the Parliament. There were families with babies, many nationalities, many working class Scots and the although the march took over the road there was no trouble, people singing out of windows to the crowd and cars caught in the throng tooted their horns and waved. There were some No signs in windows but it was a carnival atmosphere and not a nasty word was spoken and the police kept a low profile. When the crowd got to the parliament where many foreign news crews are setting up for Friday morning, many of the crews covered the impromptu gathering and the crowd repeatedly sang "Where's your cameras BBC?"
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.0 -
How high do you think the Yes vote might be in Shetland, roughly speaking?Stuart_Dickson said:
Profoundly unlikely.AndyJS said:
I've always thought it would be Shetland.Stuart_Dickson said:William Hill - Council area with highest No vote %
Dumfries and Galloway 5/1
East Renfrewshire 5/1
South Ayrshire 5/1
Borders 7/1
East Dunbartonshire 7/1
Orkney 9/1
Shetland 9/1
Edinburgh 12/1
Renfrewshire 14/1
East Lothian 16/1
Our canvass results in Shetland have been truly outstanding (and highly unexpected), and then this happened:
http://www.shetnews.co.uk/features/scottish-independence-debate/9293-shetland-news-says-yes-to-independence0 -
Hills - When Will Defeat Be Publicly Conceded?
3AM/5AM 19/9 11/10
After 5AM 19/9 7/4
Before 3AM 19/9 5/20 -
Delurking for the first time in a few years!
I hope for a No tomorrow. Breaking up the UK seems so pointless.0 -
Browns speech today was immense. The only thing that was missing is it should have been 3 bloody weeks ago.
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Just worked out I live closer to six other countries than I do Scotland0
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Well they haven't got policies worth a toss, stirring up nationalism is all they've got, so I wouldn't expect them to stop if it's a NO vote.fitalass said:I heard someone today predict that if its a Yes vote there will be protests, if its a No vote there will be riots. Over recent weeks, I have come to the conclusion that Salmond, Sturgeon&Co have no intention of trying to take the heat out of the divisions created in this debate, and that really worries me. Regardless of the result, they will indeed see the angry nationalism they have created amongst some Scots as job done.
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Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.kle4 said:
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etcaudreyanne said:
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?0 -
Not Kerching.. It was Gotze not Boateng!!!!0
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It was rather passionate.IOS said:Browns speech today was immense. The only thing that was missing is it should have been 3 bloody weeks ago.
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The best single test as to whether two areas are part of the same country is to ask: are both sets of residents subject to the same body of law? The answer with Scotland and the rest of the UK is a resounding no - try buying land, getting divorced, or making a will and dying, in both places. The Union was, if for that reason alone, a half-hearted stitch-up.david_herdson said:
The two are the same thing. Whether people choose to identify with it is another matter. That said, terminology for political units is hopelessly confused and interchangeable.Stuart_Dickson said:
The Yookay is not a country. It is a state.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
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Mr Glw, yes up to a point it is. I have had many interesting conversations with my vicars over the years. However, at some point the CofE, or indeed an other church, has to say, "This is what we believe in". The CofE's problem is it has not, at least in my lifetime, ever screwed its courage to the sticking place. So now nobody really knows what it stands for or believes in.glw said:
One of the best things about the Church of England is that questioning their faith is so common. I've always thought it was a good sign that senior members of the clergy have the same doubts as their flock.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that you are being a little harsh. Doubt is part of the Christian experience.MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
After all Jesus is recorded as saying on the cross "Father, why have you forsaken me?"
If Jesus can have doubts, then we are in good company. Leave certainty to the fanatics.
And what has been the result of this pandering to every cause? Some years ago I was walking home from the 8 o'clock with my son and he said, "I was the only person in church without grey hair". In an attempt to be "relevant" and "modern" the CofE has rendered itself neither.0 -
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.Socrates said:
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:
'Forgive them father.' isn't a question.kle4 said:
I have. What was the question? The only quotation from the cross I can recall is 'Forgive them father' etc etcaudreyanne said:
What a fatuously stupid remark. If an Archbishop cannot question then what's he (or she) doing being Archbishop?MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Or have you forgotten that Jesus, the Son of God, screamed one of the greatest questions in history from the cross?
How about:
'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?'
Christianity's greatest response to suffering comes on the cross, not as a statement, but a question, a divine disruption that echoes across time. When the world falls silent in the face of evil, moral and natural, there is a man hanging there with a ?
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?0 -
No exit poll means four hours of fevered speculation before any concrete facts become available.0
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Going to be pretty boring until the results start coming in then! Might have an early night and get up around 2am?TheScreamingEagles said:
They aren'tGIN1138 said:I wonder whether BBC/ITV/SKY will do an "exit poll" for tomorrow night's programme?
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Welcome back, Mr. Jascow.
Mr. X, the world should consider itself lucky the UK didn't put the effort in, then!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#mediaviewer/File:The_British_Empire.png0 -
WTF - the idiots in charge of cricket in this country.isam said:Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"
http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html
I blame the EU
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling
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Indeed so.SouthamObserver said:
Brown's speech today made much of the lies the SNP have told about everything from the NHS to currency.Hugh said:
It's not about the SNP and their lies.DavidL said:
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.Hugh said:
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.DavidL said:
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.Stuart_Dickson said:
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?DavidL said:
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.SouthamObserver said:I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid enough to believe the SNP and their lies.
What the people of Scotland DO like is the central vision of the SNP. An independent Scotland.
I, and some others who have long been sent away from PB, have been pointing this out for a long time. That NO need to sell a similar vision. Only Gordon Brown, in the last week, has risen to the challenge.
PS. I'm not a Scottish nationalist.
But he didn't drone on about currency, or trident, or big business, or process, which is all the NO campaign has done until Gordon stepped in.
He sold a vision of the Union, then pulled apart the opposing vision.0 -
I'm sure people will be tweeting live from the counts as soon as it is 10pmGIN1138 said:
Going to be pretty boring until the results start coming in then! Might have an early night and get up around 2am?TheScreamingEagles said:
They aren'tGIN1138 said:I wonder whether BBC/ITV/SKY will do an "exit poll" for tomorrow night's programme?
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And the beer is better in at least one of them ;-)isam said:Just worked out I live closer to six other countries than I do Scotland
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"English tourists ‘cancelling holidays to Scotland’"
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/english-tourists-cancelling-holidays-to-scotland-1-3544968#.VBnCfo5JBzk.twitter0 -
Well of course.Life_ina_market_town said:
It's reassuring to see that the nationalists only believe in their ludicrous myth of the "sovereign will of the Scottish people" when that will coincides with their views.BlackDouglas said:It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Hahahahahaha.corporeal said:
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.BlackDouglas said:I just came back from an rally. It was organised last minute and it was an invitation to all foreign nationals living in Edinburgh or visiting to participate and show support for a Yes vote. Thousands turned out. There were speakers from around the world including English speakers who were well received. After they finished speaking the crowd wanted more so they decided to march down the Royal Mile to the Parliament. There were families with babies, many nationalities, many working class Scots and the although the march took over the road there was no trouble, people singing out of windows to the crowd and cars caught in the throng tooted their horns and waved. There were some No signs in windows but it was a carnival atmosphere and not a nasty word was spoken and the police kept a low profile. When the crowd got to the parliament where many foreign news crews are setting up for Friday morning, many of the crews covered the impromptu gathering and the crowd repeatedly sang "Where's your cameras BBC?"
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Yes they have. But with such a narrow margin expected either way, even if the leaderships wanted to, the issue will rumble on too intensely to let the question slide for too long. I doubt talk of when the question would be put again would come up for a couple of years, but it shouldn't think it will take as long as 20 before another vote was taken. Human nature to fight it again when it was so close. The suggestion that the vote be retaken over and over every few years until one side wins by a clear and substantial margin is unlikely and terrifying, but has some merit.
But I am not feeling well this evening, so I shall take my leave for now. Here's hoping the negotiations so not get too rancorous when Yes win this thing.
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Teh interwebs were made for kitties - and YouTube!HurstLlama said:
@MarkHopkins
That is a fine looking cat you have there in your new avatar, Mr Hopkins.0 -
About 25 miles closer according to this siteSocrates said:
Is Germany really closer than Scotland?isam said:Just worked out I live closer to six other countries than I do Scotland
http://www.freemaptools.com/measure-distance.htm0 -
I wonder what the percentage is of English men and women who'd rather a Yes than a narrow No?
I'm not seeing many that are keen to stay together with such a half hearted associate as Scotland.
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There is no doubt that Salmond is a world class liar. He knows he'll be found out but he does not care because he knows it will be too late.Richard_Tyndall said:
And what about the lies being told by the Unionists? That infamous 'vow' from yesterday and the lies today from Alexander about EVEL.DavidL said:
I can accept that for the vanishingly few who actually think that way but their cold indifference to the suffering they will cause their fellow citizens makes me shudder. And the fact that they are so willing to lie and deceive to obtain their "principled" position is really only worthy of contempt.Hugh said:
It's not about Salmond, or even his arguments, it never has been.DavidL said:
You know what? I am. To call anybody that can believe Salmond's lies stupid is actually a compliment because the alternatives are worse.Stuart_Dickson said:
So, you are calling Yes voters "stupid" now?DavidL said:
We are not beaten yet. Have faith. Scots are not stupid. At least more than 50% of them are not.SouthamObserver said:I have never wanted to be as wrong about anything as I want to be wrong about tomorrow's vote.but i have never been more certain I am right. I just cannot see No winning. Scotland seems to have been enveloped by a fog of delusion, caused by justified anger at the Westminster machine and the outrageous lies of the Yes side. I truly feel for people like DavidL, seeing their country slipping away on the back of a lemming-like rush to self-destruction.
Polling station 7-10 then knocking doors. Going to be a long day.
It's about Scotland, and her nationhood.
Both sides have lied to further their aims. They are politicians after all it is what they do.
To try and pretend this is any different to the lies they tell every day to further their aims and do us all harm or that they would ever behave any differently is naive in the extreme.
I suspect you are just upset because Salmond might prove to be better at it than his opponents.
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This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...audreyanne said:
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.Socrates said:
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:kle4 said:audreyanne said:MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?0 -
Surely it's going to be much later than that? I really don't put much store in these estimated declaration times which have been claiming most councils will be done and dusted by 6am, given the expected turnouts. Even at the last general election, the declaration times were majorly delayed with a not-so-overwhelming 65% turnout.Stuart_Dickson said:Hills - When Will Defeat Be Publicly Conceded?
3AM/5AM 19/9 11/10
After 5AM 19/9 7/4
Before 3AM 19/9 5/2
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3-point Lab lead btw.0
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Not the yougov poll we want
YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains three points: CON 33%, LAB 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%, GRN 5%0 -
Me neither. I feel deeply apprehensive and worried. We should remember that wars have been waged over issues likes this, in Europe, in our lifetimes.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
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YouGov/Sun poll tonight - Labour lead remains three points: CON 33%, LAB 36%, LD 8%, UKIP 13%, GRN 5%0
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Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..
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Evening all and things are reaching fever pitch up here in North Britain. In just under 30hrs we should basically know the result.0
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James Kelly was banned from PB, but hey, on the eve of this historic moment at least we have Plato and her YouTube cats!0
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Meaningless semantics. The UK has been my country since I was born. We are all animals on this planet -pretending that your frame of reference has any greater meaning than someone else's is idiotic.Stuart_Dickson said:
The Yookay is not a country. It is a state.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
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Nor, as it happens, ultimately do I but I still think it's damned impressive which is probably why I wrote my PhD thesis on it.Socrates said:
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...audreyanne said:
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.Socrates said:
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:kle4 said:audreyanne said:MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
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If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
Back to Indy?0 -
BlackDouglas said:
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..Someone random said:
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.Someone random said:
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Meh. It'll be twenty five years before we have another referendum. In the meantime we can sort out the Barnett nonsense so us in the South East stop subsidising higher spending levels north of Berwick.0 -
Defeat won't be conceded before 5am. I'm pretty sure of that.0
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I'm sure whatever happens we won't go to war with Scotland. Though there's no telling what might happen on here...Chris_A said:
Me neither. I feel deeply apprehensive and worried. We should remember that wars have been waged over issues likes this, in Europe, in our lifetimes.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
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YG LAB 341 CON 265 LD 18 (UKPR)
EICIPM0 -
On the Andrew gale charge -
Michael Vaughan @MichaelVaughan ·
15000 Indians booed a very proud English player in Moeen Ali who happens to be a Muslim and the @ECB_cricket did nothing..... #Justsaying
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Ugh! Next you'll be getting into the nature of the host in Communion...Socrates said:
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...audreyanne said:
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.Socrates said:
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:kle4 said:audreyanne said:MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?0 -
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn 9s
EXCL: Britain will hold together - but only just, YouGov/Sun poll on #indyref tonight predicts; No 52%, Yes 48% (1/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb0 -
Final YouGov: No 52 Yes 48!0
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Who ever said the empire was a country?Morris_Dancer said:Welcome back, Mr. Jascow.
Mr. X, the world should consider itself lucky the UK didn't put the effort in, then!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#mediaviewer/File:The_British_Empire.png
And actually was the Empire technically anything other than India - afaik the monarch was only ever Emperor/ress of there, not any of the colonies and dominions?
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@Survation now
FINAL poll is a Telephone poll conducted over the last 24 hours, completed at 9pm tonight. Headlines figs NO 53 YES 47. NO 48 YES 43 DK 90 -
Survation No 53 Yes 470
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Mr. Owls, if Yes win then the next election is blown wide open. [Except for the Lib Dems being massacred. To avoid that they'd need Nick Clegg to be replaced by Jesus, and even then he'd need to break out the miracles].0
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Bugger me.0
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Have we ever seen such convergence amongst polls before?0
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Just think we'll all be together when the Ryder Cup starts in one week.0
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And Survation is apparently 53-47 to No.0
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YouGov final call #IndyRef poll for The Sun/The Times: NO 52%, YES 48% - http://t.co/mjxPEXCuxB pic.twitter.com/Cs6l78VfPv
— YouGov (@YouGov) September 17, 2014
YouGov ducks the question!0 -
Sky: Obama calls for UK to remain united....0
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Survation? Anyone know when?0
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Goodnight, fellow patriotic Britons.0
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What a shame you weren't around when St Augustin and Thomas Aquinas were writing -it would have saved them so much time and effort if you'd been around to tell them the concept doesn't work when you actually question it.Socrates said:
This website has long been an open forum where lots of different matters are discussed. I'm aware of the concept of the Trinity. I just don't think the concept works when you actually question it. If he was both human and divine, couldn't the divine aspect of him know why God had forsaken him? Seeing that he was that God and alll...audreyanne said:
No it's because I don't think this is the time or place to take you through the doctrine of the Trinity. This is a political betting site not a theology class. However, according to Christians Jesus wasn't talking to himself when he prayed. He was, for them, both human and divine, the second person of the Trinity. You know that full well, so stop being mischievous.Socrates said:
Any convincing argument should be able to be expressed simply. If people try waving their hand towards others to make their argument for them, then it's a good sign they are on weak ground.audreyanne said:
I'm assuming that's a tongue-in-cheek question as if you were three years old?Socrates said:
I thought Jesus was God. Why did he need to talk to himself?audreyanne said:kle4 said:audreyanne said:MikeK said:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11102371/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-my-doubts-about-existence-of-God.html?utm_content=buffer04c5d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Archbishop of Canterbury: my doubts about existence of God
Justin Welby says he asks himself ‘is there a God?’ and says Christians cannot explain why there is suffering in the world
---------------------------
If the Archbishop can't believe in God then he can't believe in Jesus, the Son of God.
Whats he doing being a Christian Archbishop in the first place? No wonder Christianity is dying in the UK.
Have a look at Wolfhart Pannenberg, Jurgen Moltmann, Eberhard Jungel, Paul Fiddes and many theologians who have written on the Trinity, especially as it relates to suffering and the cross.
Let's get back to the Indy and save theology for another day.
Two more polls then?
0 -
I think it's all over.
No way every poll is wrong by enough of a margin for Yes to win.0 -
I'll bite, who or what is a kolpack?Tykejohnno said:
WTF - the idiots in charge of cricket in this country.isam said:Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"
http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html
I blame the EU
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling
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Always something nice for we blues too...
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn·36 secs
…and a stinker for Labour; Cameron now marginally more trusted than Ed Miliband in Scotland, by 26% to 25% (5/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb0 -
Survation have a chance of being the closest pollster if NO is over 52.6% then.0
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A YES vote is likely to create so much bitterness. This will not be a 'velvet' transition, but a hard fought nasty one which will damage these islands for a long time to come. Not sure a NO vote is much better as the likely English backlash to devomax will be very divisive.0
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In random news...
Neil Oliver has come out in favour of the Union..
He's got nearly 15,000 likes in an hour on Facebook. For BT/No that's nuts.0 -
The next Lib/Lab coalition government in Holyrood should change the electoral system to STV (as in the local elections) so this can never happen again. Given the way Scotland is tearing itself apart perhaps there is something to be said for political apathy after all.Socrates said:BlackDouglas said:
The Scottish people can have a referendum any time they want. No-one can tell them otherwise, leaders or not. This campaign has separated many voters from the Labour party meaning the chance of another landslide for pro-independence parties is high. Add into the mix the threat of the UK leaving either the EU or the Council of Europe and various other political and economic events and the call for another quite soon is not beyond imagination. Salmond was careful to say that he would not call one and that it was only his opinion that another would not be called for..Someone random said:
Haven't the leaders of both sides agreed that they'd consider it settled for 20-30 years.Someone random said:
It was peaceful and democratic and passionate and there were thousands. If there is a narrow No vote, these people are not going away - you can be absolutely sure of that! The Union is over, it is just a question of when not if.
Meh. It'll be twenty five years before we have another referendum. In the meantime we can sort out the Barnett nonsense so us in the South East stop subsidising higher spending levels north of Berwick.0 -
Very good looking telegenic female surgeon called Vicky rebuts SNP NHS attacks on BBC0
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If the result is not 52/48 we march on the polling companies!0
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Salmond looked tired and going through the motions tonight, Brown far more energised0
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Welcome to a febrile PB!Fenman said:
A YES vote is likely to create so much bitterness. This will not be a 'velvet' transition, but a hard fought nasty one which will damage these islands for a long time to come. Not sure a NO vote is much better as the likely English backlash to devomax will be very divisive.
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So 52-48 seems the final poll of polls outcome, with Survation a little more No at 53-47 and Mori a little more Yes at 51-490
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_rulingsaddened said:
I'll bite, who or what is a kolpack?Tykejohnno said:
WTF - the idiots in charge of cricket in this country.isam said:Andrew Gale of Yorkshire charged with racism for calling Ashwell Prince a "Kolpak"
http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2014/content/current/story/781849.html
I blame the EU
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpak_ruling
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James Kelly finished up getting banned because he's a loon.0
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No have just about done it IMO. Just 2 polls putting Yes ahead isn't enough. My prediction of 46.5% Yes is looking okay.0
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I'm sure the Slovenes and Croatians might have thought like that in the early 1990s.GIN1138 said:
I'm sure whatever happens we won't go to war with Scotland. Though there's no telling what might happen on here...Chris_A said:
Me neither. I feel deeply apprehensive and worried. We should remember that wars have been waged over issues likes this, in Europe, in our lifetimes.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.
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Been out all evening, sorry I didn't reply to earlier posts on EVFEL - thanks. Got to dash (again) as I'm at my sister's birthday now. I will revisit again on Friday once it's all calmed down, hopefully.
All I will say is, based on the experience of Quebec 1995, where YES held notable leads in the final polls, I think we can be fairly confident the Union will hold now. But it should never have been this close. Only two polls showing a YES lead from the whole damn lot? Not good enough. GOTV can't compensate for that.
A series unforced and totally unnecessary stupid errors by the Union campaign have brought us to the very edge of a precipice.0 -
HOW BLOODY EXCITING IS THIS!!!
What politics should always be like.0 -
Pretty sure they didn't.Chris_A said:
I'm sure the Slovenes and Croatians might have thought like that in the early 1990s.GIN1138 said:
I'm sure whatever happens we won't go to war with Scotland. Though there's no telling what might happen on here...Chris_A said:
Me neither. I feel deeply apprehensive and worried. We should remember that wars have been waged over issues likes this, in Europe, in our lifetimes.IOS said:Tomorrow, the country I have lived in my entire life, my effectively cease to exist.
Can't really get my head around it.0 -
Just watched Gordon Brown's speech on News @ 10 - I think he nailed it.0
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It will be close, but it does seem Scotland will vote No, but with a high enough Yes vote to ensure devomax0
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Although obviously minor compared with the question of whether the UK is about to break up, the collapse of Scottish Labour and the failure of Ed M to connect with his core vote there is a remarkable side-show.Scrapheap_as_was said:Always something nice for we blues too...
Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn·36 secs
…and a stinker for Labour; Cameron now marginally more trusted than Ed Miliband in Scotland, by 26% to 25% (5/5) http://bit.ly/1qZqNeb0
